Senior Congress leader Shashi Tharoor has hinted at leaving the party, stating he has 'other options' if Congress does not want him.
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00:00If the Congress doesn't want me, I have other options, says Shashi Tharoor.
00:17Shashi Tharoor sending a clear message to the Congress High Command.
00:28Is an upset Tharoor finally set to leave the Congress?
00:38Tharoor in Congress cold storage with a clear trust deficit with the High Command.
00:43For often praising Prime Minister Modi, for raising incompetence in Congress, for fighting
00:49Congress President elections against Gandhi's Khadge pick, for praising left's economic
00:55model in Kerala.
00:57Is Congress set to lose another asset?
01:01Talk focus on Tudor Point this evening.
01:04All right, so is the Congress all set to lose another asset?
01:11Has Shashi Tharoor finally had it?
01:13Is he on his way out?
01:14What does he really mean where he says exercising other options?
01:17The latest coming in just about, you know, a few hours ago this morning.
01:22This was the image that was tweeted out by Shashi Tharoor.
01:26On homie camaraderie with fellow Lok Sabha MP Piyush Goyal, he happens to be in the BJP
01:32once again getting the news, mingling, rubbing it in with the Congress's concern.
01:37Which comes us to ask the big questions this evening, viewers.
01:41At the back of what we have seen, the first question that we ask, the coterie culture
01:46in Congress, is that what's keeping Shashi Tharoor out?
01:53Calling out Congress maliars, is it really anti-Congress?
01:55Shashi Tharoor has done it on multiple occasions.
01:58Tharoor exclusion, lack of skill, or actually clear lack of trust where the top brass of
02:04the Gandhi's and the Congress is concerned.
02:08Tharoor's option threat, could it lead to a rise like Jyotiraditya Sindhia, or could
02:13he actually meet Gulam Nabi Azad's fate?
02:16Tharoor's political flex with a clear eye on prominence in the Kerala State Unit.
02:23However, is the internal Kerala conflict scuttling Tharoor's chances?
02:27Some of the questions that we pose, joining us this evening, Sanjay Jha, political analyst.
02:32He's been from the Congress, who today wrote a passionate letter to Rahul Gandhi, urging
02:37him to relook on how Shashi Tharoor is being treated.
02:40We'll play out the excerpts of that letter in a short while.
02:43Rashid Kidwai, political analyst, somebody who's been reporting on the Congress for many,
02:49many decades.
02:50Rajat Sethi, political commentator.
02:52Rajdeep Sardesai, consulting editor.
02:54Rohan Gupta, national spokesperson, BJP.
02:56But today, Rohan also joins us in the capacity of someone who was with the Congress not very
03:02long while ago, and today sits in the camp of the BJP.
03:06Sanjay Jha, what prompted you to write an open letter to Rahul Gandhi this morning?
03:11Oh, well, Preeti, I'll be very honest.
03:14I don't think people in the Congress actually tell their leadership the hard truths that
03:20they should know.
03:21And I've always believed that a leader, whether in the corporate world, in sports, in entertainment,
03:27media or politics, you need to surround yourself with people who tell you the bad news first.
03:33And I feel the Congress is far too much in the, as we say, in a struggling situation
03:40at the moment that it has the luxury to let somebody like Sashi Tharoor to kind of leave
03:45the party.
03:46I was extremely disappointed because Sashi is a very dear friend of mine.
03:50I know a lot of senior people in the Congress and Sashi has always been very accessible.
03:56In fact, I have always told him that given his credentials, he's extremely unassuming
04:01and undemanding given the kind of role he can play within the mainstream Congress.
04:07So if somebody with such brilliant, outstanding attributes is being neglected by the party,
04:14is being forced to go public to say, I need to consider alternatives, then there is a
04:19serious problem.
04:20And I thought, you know, Rahul, like it or not, is the man who will eventually take the
04:25call.
04:26I know Mr Hargay is the president and lots of respect for him.
04:30But the truth is in a practical sense, Rahul is the de facto president as far as taking
04:35the key decisions are concerned.
04:37So I thought it's about time, you know, somebody speaks up because a lot of people are in touch
04:41with me and I hear their worries, I hear their apprehensions.
04:46But tragically, Preeti, no one is.
04:48I have never been able to understand.
04:50These are veterans.
04:51Many people are like elected several times over.
04:54But there is so much.
04:55But Sanjay, you know, do you think, you know, you're actually talking to a dead wall because
04:59it's not the first time that you've done this.
05:01You've been very open many times over of what your opinion has been.
05:06And I doubt if it's ever been, forget about taken it seriously, even acknowledged.
05:10Well, you know, Preeti, to be honest, these are one of the few times where I actually
05:15wish, you know, I never had to say I told you so.
05:19I mean, anybody who reads my article written five years ago, I know the party, I know some
05:24of its people well.
05:25I sense there was something fundamentally missing.
05:28There was a seminal weakness within the Congress party.
05:31The elephant in the room was a leadership, a very atrophied structure, a very laid back
05:37attitude to contesting the BGP.
05:39It was beyond me to frankly fathom what the hell was going on.
05:42And I therefore, you know, thought that this looked weird to me because Sashi is someone
05:47who I think would never, ever be away from the Congress ideology.
05:52I mean, he is actually the best ambassador the Congress has for pushing the idea of India
05:57that Rahul Gandhi talks about.
05:59I think that was a real trigger for me to reach out to Rahul, frankly.
06:03You know, all right.
06:04I just want to bring in Rashid Kidwai and Rahul and Rajdeep Sardesai into this conversation.
06:07Rashid Kidwai, you know, you've studied the Congress, you've reported on the Congress,
06:11you know everything that's wrong with the Congress, but very few things ever change
06:15within the Congress.
06:17The question that I ask you, Rashid, what is the problem where Shashi Tharoor is concerned?
06:21Because clearly it's not lack of skill.
06:24Is there an acute lack of trust?
06:26Because you know, he's been flirting with the BJP.
06:29He has lots of, you know, positive things to say about the Gandhi's.
06:34He fought an election against the pick of the Gandhi's where Mr. Khadge was concerned
06:39for the president.
06:40Is it just a trust deficit?
06:41The Gandhi's just don't trust Shashi Tharoor.
06:46I'm not ready.
06:47I think, Preeti, you know, you need to look at the Congress.
06:50In Congress, you have to be very careful who you're taking on.
06:54In this case, it is Mr. KC Venugopal who's a villain of the peace in Shashi Tharoor's
06:59scheme of things, because there was a one-on-one meeting between Rahul Gandhi and Shashi Tharoor,
07:04and the conversation, whatever conversation took place, Shashi Tharoor claimed that he
07:08did not talk to press, Rahul Gandhi did not talk to press.
07:11The house that, you know, Malaya Vandurma and Asianet and several other publications
07:16and social media platforms of Kerala, you know, headed.
07:20So the debate of suspicion is that KC Venugopal, remember KC Venugopal, is not only Congress
07:27general secretary of the nation, he's also an aspirant to be the chief minister of Kerala
07:31in case Congress wins Kerala in 2026.
07:35So Shashi Tharoor is demanding some kind of, sort of, you know, disciplinary action or
07:41some kind of action against KC Venugopal, who has sort of, you know, leaked the privilege
07:47conversation that he had with Rahul Gandhi, whether Rahul Gandhi would act or not.
07:51And then Shashi Tharoor has his options open.
07:54If you would know, many years ago, Mr. Ahmed Patel, who was a very talented leader, he
08:00took on Mr. George, and, you know, many people would not believe, not only Ahmed Patel lost
08:06his job, but he had quit the Congress for a few months or a few weeks, and then Sonia
08:11Gandhi brought him back.
08:12So therefore, in the Congress, you need to be very careful who you're taking on, and
08:16in this case, it is Shashi Tharoor versus KC Venugopal.
08:19All right.
08:20So Rajdeep, is there another battle within a battle?
08:23Because you know, we are playing out all the rich praise that Shashi Tharoor has had for
08:28the prime minister.
08:29Just a short while ago this morning, he's tweeted out a picture with him and Piyush
08:33Goyal.
08:34He's got wonderful things to say about the left's economic policies where Kerala is concerned.
08:40All of that, do you think, you know, is just ways to keep Tharoor away from the Congress
08:45high command, because the likes of KC Venugopal don't quite like it?
08:50Look, it's a, it's a little complicated.
08:55Yes, the KC Venugopal factor is certainly there.
08:58The fact that you have someone who's de facto running the party for Rahul Gandhi is also
09:06an aspirant for Kerala chief minister, and therefore is wary of Shashi Tharoor's ambitions
09:11is well known.
09:12It's well known in Kerala.
09:14It's well known here in the national capital.
09:16So clearly, Shashi Tharoor in that sense, Rashid is spot on, is facing a bit of a proxy
09:22battle with KC Venugopal.
09:24No doubt about that.
09:25And KC Venugopal has the proximity to Rahul Gandhi and access to Rahul Gandhi and indeed
09:31to the Kerala Congress that perhaps a Shashi Tharoor does not have.
09:35So there is that battle within a battle, undoubtedly.
09:38But this is a larger question, Preeti, that I want to take this debate beyond just the
09:42usual Congress versus Congress.
09:44This is more than that.
09:46What space does someone who's a lateral entrant, talented, has proved himself by winning four
09:53consecutive elections, is not a Hindutvavadi, is not a Stalinist, wants to, in a way, project
10:01a more modernist image for the Congress?
10:06What role does such an individual have in a party where insecurities and anxieties of
10:14all its leaders mean that anyone who comes from the outside with talent is always looked
10:20at with a large amount of suspicion?
10:23That's the problem.
10:24You see, the Congress today has what I call the rootless wonders.
10:28There are many rootless wonders in this party who have existed there for 20, 30 years quite
10:34simply by hovering around the Delhi Darbar, you know, the Kabals and the Kotris.
10:39Then when someone from the outside like Shashi Tharoor comes, who in a way wants to challenge
10:44the status quo, wants greater space for himself in Parliament, outside Parliament, the immediate
10:51reaction of the Congress is to look at him with suspicion.
10:55And I think that's been the problem that Shashi Tharoor has always faced.
10:59You're absolutely right.
11:00At one level, there are people, forces within the Congress who have, you know, kaan ke kacche
11:06leaders ko kaha hai ki Shashi Tharoor may be flirting with the BJP.
11:10I don't think, let me be fair to Shashi Tharoor, there has been no occasion, let someone provide
11:14me where he has flirted with the BJP.
11:17He may have spoken at times in support of government schemes, maybe on occasion he should
11:23have been, sometimes discretion is the better part of valor when you are in politics.
11:27All of that I agree.
11:29But flirting with the BJP is not his crime.
11:31Shashi Tharoor's crime in a way is that he's a talented individual with a mind of his own.
11:37And such individuals do not unfortunately have much space, not just in Congress but
11:42across parties, but in Congress in particular at the moment where the insecurities and anxieties
11:47of a few individuals are heightened.
11:50I think that's, you know, that's the reason, Preeti, why you are seeing a number of leaders
11:55in the Congress at various levels who may have their own aspirations, own ambitions,
12:02finding it very difficult and Tharoor is a good example of it.
12:06Ideally, he should be part of a galaxy of leaders that the Congress should be presenting
12:11to the voters.
12:12I mean, that is the way, Shashi Tharoor has one advantage, Preeti, he is very appealing
12:16to middle class youthful audiences, particularly urban middle class.
12:21And that is the precise constituency which the Congress has lost in recent times.
12:25He's the kind of individual you could have used for it.
12:27I have it on record, I say it in my book, on the 2024 elections, Shashi Tharoor was
12:33passed over for leader for the Lok Sabha.
12:36When he wanted to be in 2019, Adi Ranjan Choudhury was made the party leader in the Lok Sabha.
12:41Now, Shashi Tharoor, you know, has, I would say, nine and a half people out of 10 would
12:45say he'd make a better face in Parliament than an Adi Ranjan Choudhury.
12:50But what does one say, sometimes vinaash kaal vipreet buddhi.
12:53But, you know, stay with me, Rajdeep, Rajat, just two minutes of patience, Sanjay Jha has
12:58to leave, so I want to just bring him back into this conversation and I'll come right
13:01back to you.
13:02You know, Sanjay, the fact is, there are so many waiting in the wings.
13:05It took God alone knows how many years for the Congress to finally decide to give Madhya
13:10Pradesh to Jeetu Patwari.
13:12I think a Sachin pilot still doesn't know what his fate is when it comes down to Rajasthan,
13:16Sanjay.
13:17The number of mistakes, and it's a legion of leaders, I'll ask my, you know, our producer
13:22to play out that entire list of leaders, assets of the Congress that the Congress lost because
13:29they just could not accommodate them.
13:31And some of them waited and waited and waited till the time they decided they had had enough.
13:35And primary right on our television screen is Jyotiraditya Sindhya, who's now a star
13:41minister in Modi's cabinet.
13:42Sanjay, what is it that is really going on?
13:45Does the Congress really not care?
13:47The high command must be watching somewhere down the line, even if there are these battles
13:51within many battles going on within the Congress.
13:53You know, Preeti, let me tell you, this whole acquisition against the coterie is a rather
13:59exaggerated one.
14:00I'll tell you the reason why a leader chooses the people you work with.
14:05And I feel that the leader has to know what's going on around you.
14:09And if you choose a coterie and then you empower them so much that they sunder you
14:14from the rest of the political organization, then you are the one where the buck stops.
14:19And I do believe that Rahul Gandhi or Mr. Khadga or Priyanka ought to know that the
14:24world is talking about this cabal or this caucus that keeps them away from the rest
14:29of the mainstream politicians.
14:31But to answer your question, I think the real concern has to be that the old Congress way
14:37of functioning, which is where I had a huge problem, which was that the problem will just
14:42kind of wither away on its own.
14:45It doesn't happen that way.
14:46You got to take it head on, which is what I have written to Rahul.
14:50You can't wait for a problem to just evaporate into thin air.
14:54Look at what happened, Preeti, in Punjab, a conflict between two leaders and the Congress
14:59party gave away Punjab on a silver platter to the Aam Aadmi Party.
15:04Now, all of you are veterans.
15:06You know that within parties, there is competition for power.
15:09Understandable.
15:10In fact, it should be.
15:11I consider that to be a healthy competition.
15:14But leaders have to know how to handle that conflict.
15:17If you're not going to be proactive, getting people together to fix it, you're in trouble.
15:21The same happened in Rajasthan.
15:23Trust me, I'm not exaggerating.
15:25If Sachin had been made the chief minister a little earlier before assembly, who knows
15:29what the results would have been?
15:31You toppled your own government in Madhya Pradesh.
15:34In Karnataka, there is a prolonged conversation about what's going on.
15:38I mean, the Congress has to learn from its mistakes.
15:41My biggest disappointment, and I was compelled to write to Rahul.
15:45People thought I was doing it and, you know, it'll embarrass him.
15:47It's not true.
15:48I believe that you've got to learn from your mistakes.
15:51My biggest worry for the Congress is, Preeti, that it is not even learning from the second
15:56or the third or the fourth mistake.
15:58And I have grown up reading what's written twice shy.
16:01All right.
16:02You know, Rajat Sethi, I want to get you in and let's just hear in for like, you know,
16:06because there is an entire legion which seems to suggest, Rajat Sethi, we are living in
16:10such acutely polarizing times, especially where politics is concerned.
16:14If there was a BJP leader who was behaving like Shashi Tharoor, on and off, praising
16:19the prime minister, being in Kerala, praising the left government when you are just about
16:23a year away from elections, you know, today many would suggest he's practically rubbing
16:27salt in the Congress wounds where he's tweeted out a picture of Piyush Goyal.
16:31If there was a BJP leader doing so, you know, they would have never entertained him.
16:35Listen to Shashi Tharoor's praise coming in for prime minister and then over to you, Rajat
16:39Sethi.
16:40So far, I must say that what we've seen from the press statements by both the prime minister
16:45and by President Trump are very encouraging because it looks like some of the big concerns
16:50we all had have been addressed, for example, on the question of trade and tariffs.
16:56We have decided to sit down together and do a serious negotiation that will conclude
17:00by the fall, which is the autumn, September, October of this year.
17:03I think that's a very good outcome because otherwise the fear was there might be some
17:07hasty decisions made in Washington which would have affected our exports.
17:11This way there is time to discuss and negotiate.
17:14I welcome that.
17:15Now, Rajat Sethi, rich praise coming in for Prime Minister Modi's diplomacy at the time
17:21where you have your own party leader, Rahul Gandhi, attacking the prime attacking the
17:26prime minister on what went down in America and especially India's diplomatic stance where
17:32America is concerned.
17:33How does that add up?
17:35You know, how do you expect then the Congress to be accommodated where you're taking a completely
17:39contrarian line?
17:41You're on mute, Rajat.
17:46Yeah.
17:47See, Preeti ji, this is quintessential Sashi Tharoor for all of us.
17:52This is what makes him that endearing personality that he carries and wins people over.
17:58Remember, you tried to draw a comparison with the BJP's mode of functioning.
18:02BJP is right now in the government.
18:03Okay, so you can run a ruthless machine.
18:06But when you are in the opposition, you have to co-opt people, not just always confront
18:11people.
18:12That co-option requires intellectual heft that you can carry.
18:18There were leaders even in the BJP when they were in the opposition who used to talk across
18:21the aisle, have that endearing personality where you could build a base around the core
18:26values that you bring to the table.
18:28And I think this is where, I mean, if I interact and I regularly interact with Sashi ji as
18:32well, he reaches out to me, doesn't see me as somebody who supports Prime Minister Modi,
18:36etc.
18:37He engages me with typical intellectual subjects that are close to his heart.
18:42He has been a former diplomat and he has been a pretty successful diplomat.
18:47If he is trying to measure what Prime Minister has said without those typical lenses of politics,
18:53you should give it to him.
18:54And this is where, you know, merit, intellectual depth, all of these things matter.
18:59Something that Rahul Gandhi doesn't bring to the table.
19:01So of course he would want everything to be regimented.
19:04And he, Rahul Gandhi of all people, he comes in and tortures us through his lectures.
19:10If you remember that lecture on decentralization that he gave to poor students from Nagaland,
19:14he's talking about the merits of decentralization and he himself is the walking symbol of everything
19:20centralized and corroded at the very core.
19:24There should be a museum on the failures of Rahul Gandhi.
19:27Instead, there should be a school on how not to do political leadership.
19:32See, the problem with Rahul Gandhi is that he just doesn't follow.
19:37And I'm just a ringside observer of it and all of the other panelists know him far more
19:41closer because they've all worked with him at one point or the other.
19:45I am telling you, as a neutral observer of Rahul Gandhi, I just don't think Congress
19:51can revive as long as he remains at the helm.
19:54Who was he to have a proxy candidate in the election to the Congress party and then talk
19:59about the merits of democratization and merits of liberal politics?
20:03Fair point.
20:04Okay.
20:05This is the problem.
20:06As long as Rahul Gandhi is there, you cannot have a responsible opposition.
20:09Okay.
20:10I want to bring in Rohan Gupta, but Sanjay is joining another show.
20:12Sanjay is in high demand today because he's written that open letter.
20:15Sanjay, hopefully, you know, the Congress will read it and you'd be in demand within
20:19the Congress because, you know, you've at least been alone, a loyal soldier, even outside
20:24the party.
20:25Rohan Gupta wants to come.
20:26Okay, Rohan Gupta, make your point.
20:27Make your point.
20:28Before you go, I just want to say something.
20:31Sanjay, had they heard your comments or your thoughts, you wouldn't have been out of party.
20:36So when you were in party, they were not listening to you.
20:40Do you feel that when you are outside the party, they will listen to you?
20:42I don't think whether your letter will reach to the right person, but you are making your
20:46efforts.
20:47Please continue doing your efforts like Ek Lavya.
20:50So my best wishes to you.
20:51Or do what Rohan Gupta did, switch over.
20:54But Sanjay Jha, you know, okay, let me flip the question.
20:57The question is also, the question that I asked Rajat Sethi, you take on, it's so polarizing
21:03where India's political climate is concerned.
21:06Imagine a BJP leader, you know, praising Rahul Gandhi or having a word or two, which
21:11is nice to say about Rahul Gandhi.
21:13At one end, you are a year away from elections.
21:15And then going on and speaking in rich praise about the economic policies of the left in
21:22Kerala, where you are a four times MP from Kerala.
21:25You know, the card has helped you reach where you have.
21:27So there is a bit of a conflict within the Congress as well.
21:31You know, there's one thing, Preeti, that I do believe that Sasi manifest and I do hope
21:36to some extent I do as well, which is that, you know, we need to raise the standards of
21:40our political discourse or our public dialogue.
21:43I mean, I loved what, for example, Rajat said right now, I totally agree with him.
21:49The conversation needs to rise beyond the kind of aggressive polarization we have.
21:53For example, as I think Rajdeep pointed out, I mean, Sasi is, for God's sake, he could
21:58have been the UN Secretary General.
22:00I mean, you're talking to a not an ordinary politician.
22:04He's a person who is bipartisan on many issues.
22:07He's got a nuanced understanding of foreign policy.
22:10And I think that's the way it should be.
22:12So if, for example, he praised a certain aspect of Mr. Modi's visit to the White House, I
22:19may not agree with it personally, for example, but that's his view.
22:22The Congress is the Big Ten party, Preeti.
22:24I mean, that's been the biggest story.
22:27And I believe within the party, you can't have people expressing a view that may rile
22:31some people.
22:32Some people will be petty and parochial about it, but the Congress leadership should not
22:37be like that.
22:38If Rahul Gandhi or Mr. Kargi is pulling up Sasi for a comment on Kerala government or
22:43a comment on Mr. Modi's visit, I think that is being extremely infantile.
22:48And that is what will disappoint somebody with an intellectual heft.
22:52And I think a great sagacity about India like Sasi.
22:55That's all I want to say.
22:56Thank you so much.
22:57All right.
22:58Well, thanks, Sanjay, for joining us.
22:59Rajdeep, just one question.
23:00I'll go across to Rashid Kidwai first and I'll go across to Rajdeep.
23:04You know, Rashid Kidwai, the fact is, there's a strange sort of hypocrisy coming in from
23:10the Congress.
23:11Look at the narrative that is going on today, where let's say the Kumbh is concerned.
23:14You can criticize the Kumbh, that doesn't make you anti-Hindu.
23:17Why does it make you anti-Congress if you criticize the Congress?
23:20And that's one of the reasons, you know, that Shashi Tharoor is paying the price today.
23:25So I think, Preeti, we are jumping the gun in the sense we are assuming that, you know,
23:30the Shashi Tharoor and Congress party have come to a point of no return.
23:35I don't think so.
23:36That's not a case.
23:37There is a sort of, you know, I would say gross misunderstanding or a lack of communication,
23:42etc. is there.
23:43There is a meeting of Kerala MPs, Congress president, this Friday, where Shashi Tharoor
23:49is a member, Priyanka Gandhi is a member, and so is KCV Venugopal, he's also a member.
23:54So there's going to be a lot of things that are going to happen if Shashi Tharoor indeed
23:58leaves Congress and joins the BJP.
24:00It will give a handle for many people in the Congress who, to quote Keshri,
24:08So you see a lot of people, congressmen, diehard congressmen, including my friend Rohan Gupta
24:17has joined the BJP to prove that point, that there are people who are harboring or sort
24:22of having a greater comfort across.
24:25So Shashi has to dispel that also.
24:28So therefore, things are not easy either for Shashi Tharoor or for the Congress.
24:31But as I said, if Priyanka Gandhi intervenes, if the Friday meeting goes off well, then
24:36this kind of misunderstanding.
24:37You know, there's always Rajdeep Somach made on the role of Priyanka Gandhi.
24:41She was the one who bought Sachin Pilot from the brink of leaving the party.
24:44You know, there is so much, you know, the legion of Priyanka Gandhi's role sometimes
24:48could be even bigger than what really it is.
24:50But Rajdeep, do you actually see Shashi Tharoor leave the party?
24:56You know, if he does, do you actually see him go to a BJP?
24:59Because to join the BJP one year before elections in a state like Kerala is political suicide.
25:06Shashi Tharoor, from what I gather, is not going anywhere to the BJP.
25:09He is not a Hindutvavadi.
25:11Get that straight.
25:12Shashi Tharoor is not joining the CPI or the left.
25:15He is not a Stalinist.
25:16Shashi Tharoor is an individual seeking a larger space for himself after almost two
25:23decades in Indian politics.
25:25Having won four times from Thiruvananthapuram, he wants greater space.
25:30Now the truth of the matter is, let's be also honest, no party today in India really has
25:34any internal democracy.
25:36So let's not, you know, single out one party or the other.
25:38You speak out against your leadership or you are seen to speak in praise of your rival.
25:43Today you find yourself constricted more and more.
25:46I think the Shashi Tharoor dilemma in a way, Preeti, is the fact that he is in a state
25:50which is hugely bipartisan between these two fronts, left front and Congress.
25:55And he doesn't know, you know, how do I carve out a space for myself within my party?
26:01And if I don't, what are my options?
26:02Can I form a regional party?
26:04Can I form a party like a Kerala first party and then expect others to join hands?
26:10He claims or his supporters claim that a poll was done in Kerala which showed 48% of the
26:15people when asked who should be the ideal chief ministerial candidate said Shashi Tharoor.
26:20And all his other major rivals were Satish Shah at 17% and Ramesh Chennitala at 5%.
26:25Now, obviously, therefore, Shashi Tharoor feels and he has been interestingly also reaching
26:30out to the Muslim League, which is an important ally of the left.
26:34They're hoping that the Muslim League will put pressure on the Congress leadership that
26:39they would like Shashi Tharoor as a face.
26:41This is power politics.
26:43Let's also not be, you know, let's not kid ourselves that Shashi Tharoor is also not
26:46playing his brand of power politics.
26:49He's also trying in his own way to create a space for himself.
26:53Now, that is not easy in entrenched political parties where there are vested interests already
26:58there.
26:59And I think, yes, the buck does stop with Rahul Gandhi and the Gandhi family and Mr.
27:04Khargid.
27:05They have to take the decision.
27:06You can't just blame it on KC Venugopal.
27:08The decision at the end of the day, and I said this, even you will recall when Captain
27:12Amrita Singh's predicament happened.
27:14Don't pass the buck.
27:16At the end of the day, you're mentioning Priyanka Gandhi.
27:18I mean, the end of the day, whoever is that individual has to decide for better or worse.
27:25The buck stops with the BJP, with Modi Shah.
27:27They appoint chief ministers sitting in Delhi, many of whom are first timers.
27:32No one objects because they are in power, therefore they can get away like Indira Gandhi
27:36could in the 70s.
27:37Now in the opposition, you can't get away by making mistakes.
27:40You have to ensure that you choose people who you think have the best chance of winning.
27:46Politics at the end of the day is about winning.
27:48You have to keep all your personal likes, dislikes out of it.
27:51Choose the best person, which I think the Congress at the moment has struggled to do
27:57for the main part and has thereby allowed factionalism to simmer.
28:01I still believe that Shashi Tharoor will remain with the Congress.
28:04The question now is, and I find it interesting purely as an observer, whether a middle class
28:10self-made individual not connected to a dynasty can get that kind of space within the Congress
28:17to challenge certain entrenched elites in his state politics.
28:20So Shashi Tharoor ko kya hota hai will be an interesting, interesting to observe.
28:27Well, we're all looking at that closely, Rohan Gupta with what Rajdeep just said.
28:31Is it because of that, that Shashi Tharoor was very open about his ambitions and why
28:36not so?
28:37He's a four time MP and he made it very clear that he'd like to be the chief minister of
28:42Kerala and elections are in a year's time.
28:44Do you think that's what did him in within the Congress?
28:46I think there's a larger issue with today's Congress party.
28:50See, I had been with the party for 15 years.
28:53Whenever party's narrative was decided, and obviously we as a party, when we used to feel
28:57that this is not the correct narrative.
29:00And if you speak against that narrative, the darbaris around the top leadership, they will
29:04convert you into anti-party.
29:05Anybody, whoever it is, whether it's a public face, there are leaders who have left Congress
29:10party.
29:11Aap jaate hi dekhiye galiyan dena.
29:12Why they have left?
29:13They have not come in politics for individual gains.
29:16But even if they speak good for the party, this chunk of darbaris, they used to convert
29:20them into anti-party.
29:22And finally, the top leadership, generally, what should be that the top leadership opinion
29:26should come from the ground.
29:28Here what happens that few darbaris, they form the opinion of the top leadership and
29:31they take the final decision.
29:32This is the party that people who are responsible for defeat of the party in the elections,
29:37they are made chairman of the disciplinary committee.
29:40Now, what do you expect?
29:41The person who is responsible, who is going to decide that fact-finding mein kaun zimmedaar
29:45hai.
29:46Isiliye, the people, whoever are there in Congress party, who had their own mind, they
29:51felt that this narrative is not correct.
29:53They have raised point.
29:54They are out of the party.
29:55And see the narrative of Congress party, anti-Kum, criticizing the government on each and every
30:00front.
30:01See their communication strategy after current communication head.
30:04It is completely hewa hai.
30:06If the party loses Haryana, they have no right to be in politics.
30:10I'm using very strong words.
30:12This is totally blunder of their communication strategy.
30:15And these few darbaris, they catch hold of the few top leaders and they run their own
30:19politics.
30:20Unki dukaan chal rahi hai, Congress ka makaan gira diya.
30:23And again today, I have left the party.
30:25I am in BJP today.
30:26I see BJP very closely.
30:28I don't agree with Rajdeep that only two people decide.
30:31There is a clear-cut system, even Delhi CM, there is a clear-cut system where all the
30:35stakeholders, they come together and there is a clear-cut democracy, which I could feel
30:40as a person who has spent one year in party and there is space for everybody.
30:45I don't want to debate with my friend, Mr. Rohan Gupta, but it is one thing to be...
30:53Rohan Gupta, I'm glad because it seems like you wanted an outlet and you wanted to give
31:01out exactly what's wrong within the Congress.
31:04Rajdeep disagrees, but he's lived that life for 15 years.
31:08No, no, look, I think Rohan Gupta makes some valid points.
31:12No one doubts it.
31:14You see, when so many people cutting across, you know, some close to the Gandhi family,
31:20some distant, all leave the party, there is a question mark, no doubt.
31:23And Rohan Gupta does raise important points.
31:25My only question is, it's one thing to leave the Congress because you believe the Congress
31:29is not giving you the space that you want or is not fulfilling your ambitions.
31:35It is another thing to then join the BJP.
31:37You see, that is where, you see, it is almost as if then you're...
31:42Okay, we're running out of time.
31:43I want to bring in Rajat Sethi.
31:46A very quick response.
31:47See, it's...
31:4810 seconds, Rohan Gupta.
31:49The way you look at it, it's not always personal ambition.
31:52When you see that party is going against the narrative, which every Indian wants, you cannot
31:56be there.
31:57People like me, we are not in politics to get something.
31:59I'm telling you very frankly, it's not about individual ambition.
32:02You need to understand the suffocation people like us feel when they go out in the social
32:06community.
32:08You are opposing Kumbh, you are opposing Ram Mandir, you are opposing, you are not speaking
32:12anything when Sanatan is inside.
32:13You know, Rajdeep, why don't we look at politics as a career?
32:16It is a career.
32:17You've got to make the right decisions for yourself sometimes.
32:19That is where the Congress party has been taken by current Darbaris.
32:23Okay.
32:24Look, I maintain, I don't think Shashi Tharoor, I don't think Shashi Tharoor wants to leave
32:29the Congress to join the BJP.
32:32I think he at the moment is feeling, a good word was used by Rohan, a little suffocated
32:37that a four-time winner from Tiruvananthapuram, a tough constituency, is not being given enough
32:44space.
32:45He believes as a leader, you know, I'll give you, even when he contested against Manik Arjun
32:51Kharge, it's well known that warnings were issued to delegates who attended his meeting
32:56that if you attend his meeting, you could well, you know, face disciplinary action.
33:00So I think Shashi Tharoor represents the suffocation point that Rohan Gupta is making.
33:05But let's not also, that doesn't mean you have to join the BJP the next morning.
33:09All right.
33:10Okay.
33:11I want to bring in Rajan Sethi, but Rajan Sethi, very quickly, the BJP would be very
33:15glad to have Shashi Tharoor because look what they did with the likes of Jyotiraditya Sindhia
33:20and a Shashi Tharoor kind of personality is actually missing within the BJP.
33:24They'd be very, very happy to have him.
33:26Yes and no.
33:27I mean, that is up to the BJP.
33:29But, you know, I want to contest what Rajdeep ji said.
33:32Rajdeep ji is trying to make out that this is a Shashi Tharoor problem.
33:35This is not a Shashi Tharoor problem.
33:37No, I didn't say that.
33:38I didn't say that.
33:39No, I'm just trying to imply at one point.
33:41No, no, Rajat, I didn't say that.
33:42No, no, Rajat, I did not say it's a Shashi Tharoor problem.
33:45I said there is a problem.
33:47Okay, I'm running out of time.
33:48Can you quickly finish this?
33:49One line.
33:50One line.
33:51One line.
33:52The real problem that I foresee as an observer is that Congress party in their book of political
33:57management does not have a chapter to manage competition.
34:00That playbook is missing.
34:01How do you manage competition within each state?
34:04State after states are falling because of this competition and that chapter is missing.
34:08They need to write that chapter.
34:09But, Rajat Kidwai, as he said earlier, that all is not lost.
34:12The Congress is going to try and make sure that Shashi Tharoor stays in the field.
34:16Right.
34:17Okay, I've run out of time, Rajdeep.
34:19I really need to close the show.
34:21I appreciate all four of you for joining us.
34:23We know we're going to keep a keen eye on all developments.
34:26Of course, it's caused a bit of a political flutter.
34:28How much for it to actually make the Congress hold on to Shashi Tharoor, we know in times
34:33to come.
34:40Welcome back.
34:41You're watching our Extra Point segment.
34:43On to the point.
34:44Two big stories that happen alongside today other than the discussion on Shashi Tharoor.
34:48Well, 41 years in the making.
34:5141 years later, the law finally caught up with Sajjan Kumar, ex-Congress MP in the 1984
34:59Sikh riot case.
35:00This is what happened.
35:05Justice after 41 years for 1984 anti-Sikh riot victims.
35:12Former Congress MP Sajjan Kumar has got life in jail for leading a mob that set ablaze
35:18a father-son duo in Delhi's Saraswati Vihar during the worst genocide that Delhi has seen.
35:48The mob had killed the victims, Jaswant Singh and son Tarundeep Singh, on November 1, 1984.
36:04The victim's family and prosecution had sought death penalty.
36:18The survivors of the anti-Sikh riots held protests outside Delhi's Raozevenue court seeking death penalty.
36:48The ruling BJP claimed that earlier Congress governments had shielded the rioters.
37:17It thanked Prime Minister Narendra Modi for setting up a SIT and ensuring justice.
37:47The riots and killing of innocent Sikhs were triggered after then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi was shot dead by her Sikh bodyguards.
38:07But it took 41 years to punish one of the biggest perpetrators.
38:13New Delhi Bureau report India Today.
38:24And on the other big story, on extra point, as promised the BJP government in Delhi tabled the CAG report which the Aam Aadmi Party hadn't tabled in the Assembly.
38:35Fireworks.
38:43The Delhi Liquorgate policy war reignites.
38:50The CAG report on the contentious liquor policy was tabled in the Assembly on Tuesday by the newly minted BJP government.
39:12I present to you the report of the year 2024 on Sadan Patal.
39:42New policy decisions were taken without the competent authorities' nod and permissions were not obtained for any license exemptions.
39:50The new policy not only violated norms by granting licenses to private entities but also removed the role of Delhi government corporations.
39:58The CAG report says the new policy led to a loss of over 2,000 crore rupees to the state exchequer and claims expert panel findings were changed to tweak the policy.
40:10The Delhi government did not take an active role in the matter.
40:14Even after coming to court, the government refused to keep the report with them.
40:24The CAG report also explains how the massive losses were incurred.
40:29The total loss to exchequer from the implementation of excise policy was over 2,000 crore rupees.
40:37Of this, a loss of 941 crore rupees was due to zonal license exemptions and another 890 crore rupees loss due to non-tendering of retail licenses.
41:07The AAP claims no proof yet has been found to back the claims.
41:37The current government has not sent the report to the Vidhan Sabha. Our government sent it to table.
42:07Bureau report, India Today.