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00:00Now, Gaza ceasefire talks continue in Doha.
00:14According to U.S. officials, Hamas is offering a truce with Israel, which could last five
00:18to ten years, during which the militant group would lay down their weapons, in exchange
00:23for the remaining Israeli hostages, both dead and alive.
00:27Washington is confident an agreement can be reached within weeks.
00:31We can now bring in Sameer Sinej Lawi, a political activist advocating for Palestinian reforms
00:36and democracy, as well as coexistence between Israelis and Palestinians.
00:41Thank you so much for joining us on the program today.
00:44Now, you penned an article in The Atlantic in December titled, My Hope for Palestine.
00:50And in it, you write, the future you imagine is rooted in the past.
00:53You're in your 50s now.
00:55What was it like growing up in Jerusalem?
00:57Well, the city of Jerusalem, I was born in the old city of Jerusalem.
01:02I am a Muslim Palestinian that went to a Christian French school, Collège de Frères, La Salle
01:08school.
01:09So Jerusalem is always a city of tolerance, diversity.
01:15It's a city of three religions, two people.
01:19So in my childhood, I couldn't find but part of my identity to see Jews going to synagogues,
01:27Christians to churches, Muslims to mosques.
01:33And until the first of days of the first Intifada, first Intifada is the uprising of 1987, I
01:41didn't feel there is a conflict.
01:42I didn't feel that there is the other side.
01:46But when the Intifada came, the conflict erupted, invaded me from inside, just like
01:52my whole generation on the Palestinian side.
01:54And I am sure the same happened to the Israeli young generation on the other side.
02:01The conflict gives us a different identity.
02:03And then you felt you needed to also start uprising in yourself, if you will.
02:10Well, that was why I thought I need to be part of us against them.
02:17And I started throwing stones and it brought me to five years in Israeli jails, from the
02:24age of 15 to the age of 20.
02:26And what was that experience like?
02:28Because it couldn't have been easy for somebody that young.
02:31Well, one of the days that I cannot forget in my life is the day that the Israeli judge
02:40sentenced me to five years.
02:42It's very tough.
02:43But during this period, I started talking to the other side.
02:47The other side was the guard, I was the prisoner, but there was some kind of conversation to
02:52discover the other side.
02:55And I continued this long process of talking to the other side, talking to the Israelis.
03:02And this gives you some kind of insight on this conflict.
03:08When you start understanding this conflict from the eyes of the other side, you start
03:14thinking better of how to find a way out of it.
03:18Most of the problems now among Israelis and Palestinians is that there is a lack of confidence
03:22and there is a lot of ignorance.
03:24We don't know each other.
03:26This is something you write about because you talk about the need for understanding
03:29and dignity on both sides.
03:31You talk about the humiliation Palestinians go through on a daily basis.
03:35But you also talk about the need for understanding the pain October 7th caused for Israelis.
03:41But the problem is Israelis and Palestinians who, like you, call for dialogue, are brandished
03:48traitors and dreamers.
03:50What do you say to the skeptics out there?
03:53Well, currently Israelis and Palestinians, they have something in common, which is the
03:58hard feelings.
03:59There is a cocktail of feelings that is prevailing.
04:02It's anger, it's pain, it's hatred, it's revenge.
04:06Still, with this kind of prevailing hard feelings, somebody needs to remind both sides that before
04:14being Israelis and Palestinians, we are human beings.
04:18There is a common humanity among us.
04:20And human being realizes the pain of the others also.
04:25We need to be able to open and unlock our hearts and start feeling the pain of the other
04:30side, whether Palestinians towards Israelis or Israelis towards Palestinians.
04:34And Samir, what exactly is your initiative?
04:36Tell us.
04:37Well, I've been part of an initiative between two interesting Israeli and Palestinian leaders,
04:44Uhud Ormer, a former prime minister who comes from the Likud, from the mainstream, and the
04:52former minister of foreign affairs, Dr. Nasser Al-Qudawi, who comes from Fatah, also a long
04:57history of being a leader in the mainstream.
05:01These two leaders have announced in July a joint proposal to end the war, release the
05:07hostages and Palestinian prisoners, and to go into creating a governmental structure
05:16for Jordan, for Gaza, including Arab presence security that will enable the withdrawal of
05:22the Israeli army from Gaza and connecting, bringing back life to Gaza, and then going
05:29two steps to a solution based on the two-step solution.
05:33If these two leaders were able to sign this document, it means any Israeli and any Palestinian
05:39can agree to this document because they come from the mainstream.
05:42So this initiative shows that maybe it's the psychological barriers that is separating
05:49Israelis and Palestinians that are preventing now people to believe that there is a possibility
05:55for a political solution.
05:58It's not the complicity of the solid issues of the conflict.
06:01There can be 10 ways to solve the issue of Jerusalem or borders or settlements, but the
06:07mistrust and the lack of confidence and the anger that is controlling both sides is preventing
06:14them from taking these steps.
06:16Most of Israelis and Palestinians would like by nature to coexist and would like to exit
06:22this conflict.
06:23You write that a two-state solution or some sort of peaceful coexistence can only come
06:29about if there's a change in leadership in both Israel and on the Palestinian side.
06:35Israel holds elections, whether we like it or not, Netanyahu seems to keep coming back.
06:40There has not been an election on the Palestinian side.
06:42Mahmoud Abbas has been there for some 20 years now.
06:45How does one go about convincing Mahmoud Abbas to step aside?
06:49Well, he will not do it voluntarily.
06:52But he's 90 years old.
06:53He's 90 years old.
06:55He doesn't see that he has an obligation to allow younger generations to come.
07:00He sticks there, and he will not voluntarily step down.
07:05I think there should be some kind of pressure, and the pressure will not come from the Palestinian
07:09street for simple reasons.
07:11We are not able to mobilize.
07:14You mentioned the hardship of checkpoints, 900 checkpoints in the West Bank that cannot
07:21allow you to move a bus from one street to another street.
07:25Unfortunately, the international community is supporting a dictator like Abbas, a person
07:31that refused to respect internally the rights of Palestinians and still claim that he has
07:36the agency to represent these rights in front of the others.
07:40How come?
07:41If you don't respect that your people have the right to freedom of speech, to criticize
07:45you, if you don't respect that your people have the right to go to the election boxes
07:49every four years and choose leadership and give agency, if you don't respect transparency,
07:56if you are not accountable to your people, how can you represent these people in front
08:01of the others?
08:02So the international community should play a role into pressuring Abbas into allowing
08:09a change in leadership.
08:12Election is the way that Palestinians can change the reality.
08:17Most of the Palestinians are fed up from the corruption that Abbas has brought upon
08:21them in the West Bank and the destruction that Hamas brought upon them in Gaza.
08:26They need a third way, a way of construction and hope.
08:29So we need to allow the Palestinians to exercise their right of elections.
08:33Most of the international community is blocking elections because they fear that maybe Hamas
08:38will be elected, which is not true.
08:41Hamas does not have enough power to win any elections.
08:45You write also that one of the external obstacles to peace is the extreme sentiments in the
08:51West.
08:52How is it possible to get rid of these sentiments, considering that there is a huge Arab diaspora
08:58in places like here in France, in the United States, same thing with the Jewish community
09:04that is quite spread out?
09:05Well, most of those people who rally under Palestinian flags all over the world, far
09:11away from the conflict, they could be the most anti-Palestinians.
09:16And those who are rallying under Israeli flags, sometimes they are the most anti-Israelis.
09:21For example, can you tell me, is the slogan, From the River to the Sea, a slogan that really
09:28reflects the need and the thoughts and the beliefs of the Palestinians?
09:33Do we really want to throw the Israelis into the sea?
09:36It's not correct.
09:38It's not accurate.
09:40Most of the Palestinians on the ground, in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, in East Jerusalem,
09:45they know and they want to co-exist with Israel.
09:49And I'm sure most of the Israelis would like to co-exist with the Palestinians.
09:53But currently, there is lack of leadership that can help both societies to take the necessary
10:00steps towards this co-existence.
10:03We have seen the devastation in Gaza.
10:07Unfortunately, some Israeli hostages still remain in the enclave.
10:10Given the scale of the pain that Israel has inflicted, do you not fear that many inside
10:16Gaza will turn to violence as it's the easy route?
10:20Well, currently, the people in Gaza, 2.3 million Palestinians, that Hamas took them in a collective
10:29suicide attack on the 7th of October and stole their lives.
10:34You can imagine that suddenly millions of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, they don't
10:38have a home anymore.
10:41They lost their lives.
10:42They lost their relatives.
10:43They are living in plastic tents.
10:46Some kids now are dying out of cold weather, not out of bombs.
10:50So these people are suffering.
10:52And these people would like to see hope, change, would like to get back their lives.
10:57All what they need now is basic necessities in life.
11:00They need to find water.
11:02They need to find food.
11:03They need to rebuild.
11:06But who does the rebuilding of Gaza now?
11:09Well, I think it's the obligation now of the Palestinians to produce a leadership that
11:16will be able to restore things again and create new dynamics with the Israelis.
11:22I think now it's possible to force Abbas into allowing a new governmental structure in Gaza
11:31that is not Abbas, that is not Hamas, because if we need Gaza without Hamas, we need to
11:36start with the West Bank without Abbas.
11:39So if not Abbas, who?
11:41There are a lot of names.
11:43There is a young generation in Fatah, the opposition inside Fatah.
11:46For example, Mohamed Dahlan, Dr. Nasser El-Khodwe, Tawfiq El-Terawi.
11:51There is a layer of leadership, Jibril El-Joub and others, that can provide an alternative
11:57to Abbas and Hamas.
11:59Something new, something that can provide more stability to Palestinians.
12:04You know now, today every Palestinian wakes up in the morning and he's sure that today
12:08is going to be worse than yesterday.
12:10If a Palestinian starts to wake up in the morning and feels there is a little bit of
12:14hope that today is going to be better, things will change.
12:18We are not violent people.
12:21We are non-violent people by nature.
12:25What's happening now is a reaction towards the harsh reality.
12:31The misunderstanding of each other, us and the Israelis, we need to start seeing this
12:37conflict in the eyes of the Israelis, we as Palestinians, and it is only one word, security.
12:42And the Israelis need to see this conflict in the eyes of the Palestinians, and it is
12:46one word, freedom and dignity.
12:49We are able, if we start providing security to the Israelis, they will start learning
12:54about the importance of providing freedom to us, until we walk the way towards 100 security
13:01against 100% of freedom, where both people are living next to each other in a two-state
13:08model.
13:09There is no other solution than the two-state solution.
13:11This is the only model that can provide a Jewish democratic state for Israelis that
13:17make them feel more secure, and a Palestinian state for Palestinians that make them feel
13:22free.
13:23Thank you, Samir.
13:24Hopefully, voices like yours can grow louder.
13:27Thank you so much for joining us on the program today.
13:29Thank you for having me.
13:30That's it for this edition of Around the World.
13:31Thank you very much for watching.