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00:00Aid hostages held by Hamas in the Gaza Strip have been released as part of a six-week ceasefire
00:16deal which remains in effect.
00:18They include a female Israeli soldier, an 80-year-old Israeli man and five Thai nationals.
00:25Scenes of chaos unfolded in the Gaza Strip earlier as seven hostages were handed over
00:29to the Red Cross.
00:31That chaos prompted a swift response from Israeli officials, with the country's prime
00:35minister delaying the planned release of dozens of Palestinian prisoners, which was due to
00:39take place this Thursday.
00:44After 482 days in captivity, three Israeli citizens and five Thai nationals are handed
00:51over to the Red Cross by Hamas.
00:54The first hostage released, 20-year-old Israeli soldier Agam Berger, who was abducted along
00:59with four other female soldiers who were freed on Saturday.
01:03Hamas turned the hostage releases into scenes of propaganda, parading Berger on a stage
01:08before handing her to the Red Cross in the northern refugee camp of Jabalia.
01:14The seven civilians were released later on Thursday in the southern city of Han Yunis,
01:18in front of the destroyed home of slain Hamas leader Yaya Sinwar.
01:23It was a chaotic scene.
01:25Civilians surrounded and shouted at the hostages as they were led to Red Cross vehicles.
01:31Twenty-nine-year-old Arbel Yehud and 80-year-old Gadi Moses were turned over, along with five
01:37Thai nationals.
01:38They are foreign workers who were taken captive in the October 7 attack.
01:43Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu criticized Hamas' setup of the handover, calling
01:48it a shocking scene and further proof of Hamas' cruelty.
01:54But there were still celebrations and tears of joy across Israel.
01:58At the hostages' square in Tel Aviv, Israelis were singing, dancing and popping champagne.
02:06All eight hostages were taken to Israel for medical assessments and to be reunited with
02:11loved ones.
02:25According to the ceasefire deal that began on January 19th, a total of 33 hostages should
02:31be freed during the agreement's initial six weeks, in exchange for nearly 2,000 Palestinian
02:37prisoners.
02:38We can now bring in Gershon Bashkin, a former Israeli hostage negotiator who joins us from
02:45Tel Aviv.
02:46Good afternoon.
02:47Thank you so much for joining us on the program today.
02:49Now we clearly saw those chaotic scenes unfold in Gaza as those Israeli hostages were being
02:55released.
02:56Hamas clearly eager to show it's in control in the enclave.
03:00What do you make of what we saw?
03:01Oh, what we saw was chaos caused by both Hamas and Islamic Jihad being responsible for the
03:08two hostages who were released there in Khan Yunis.
03:11The earlier release we saw, which was only Hamas, was very orderly.
03:15It was a Hollywood production with directors directing the traffic and controlling the
03:20movement of people, and many, many armed combatants there taking control.
03:25Later in the day, it was chaotic.
03:28It was not done in a secured location.
03:30It was done at the symbolic site of the home that no longer exists, that belonged to Yehia
03:36Senwar.
03:37And you can see in these pictures the thousands of people who were gaffed there.
03:41It's amazing that the hostages made it out there safely.
03:44So you're saying that we saw those scenes of chaos because Islamic Jihad was involved
03:48this time around?
03:50I think it was because there wasn't one group that was involved by itself.
03:54You see in the pictures the green flags of Hamas and the black flags of Islamic Jihad.
03:59There were Hamas soldiers who, you see the green ribbons around their head, and the Islamic
04:03Jihad soldiers who were wearing helmets and black uniforms.
04:07It was clear that no one group was in charge, and that was the resulting chaos that we see
04:13here.
04:14Israel says it's suspending the release of Palestinian prisoners.
04:17What does this mean?
04:18Is that ceasefire deal in jeopardy?
04:20No, I already saw an announcement that the release will take place at five o'clock this
04:24evening, Israel time, so I think the release will take place.
04:27Israel's not going to break down the deal over what happened this morning.
04:31They sent their protest to Egypt and to Qatar and the United States, and hopefully the Qataris
04:36and the Egyptians mainly will be able to make sure that the release, the next release, which
04:41is scheduled to take place on Saturday, will be more orderly and less chaotic, and that
04:46the hostages will come home safely.
04:48Three hostages are supposed to be released on Saturday, a total of 33 hostages in the
04:53first 42 days, and expecting that eight of the 33 are not alive.
04:59Now Gershkin, you know you've, phase two, negotiations for phase two of the ceasefire
05:04deal are set to take place on day 16 of the current ceasefire deal, I believe.
05:10Have those negotiations started, and if they haven't started, what are the sticking points?
05:16They're going to start on Tuesday.
05:17If they've been talking, they've been talking unofficially so far.
05:21The main sticking points are that the war in phase two in the second 42 days is supposed
05:25to come to a final end, and there's supposed to be an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza.
05:30This is going to lead us to a collision course between Netanyahu and his government coalition
05:35partners, and President Trump, if President Trump maintains his firmness that this deal
05:41must be implemented to the end, because Netanyahu's coalition partners, Smutnich, the finance
05:47minister, is threatened to bolt the coalition if the deal goes through, if the war ends,
05:51if Israel does not renew the fighting.
05:55And at the day, day 16, when these negotiations are supposed to begin, and to conclude by
06:00day 30, Netanyahu will be in Washington meeting with President Trump, the first foreign leader
06:05to meet President Trump since his inauguration.
06:09And we don't know what Trump's message will be, but it has been until now that this deal
06:13must go through to complete itself into stage two, and then into stage three of reconstruction
06:18of Gaza.
06:19With Netanyahu facing domestic resistance when it comes to negotiating phase two of
06:26this deal, does Steve Witkoff, who is Donald Trump's Middle East envoy, does his presence
06:31in Israel sort of arm twist Netanyahu in a way?
06:34I think it does.
06:35And Witkoff is here today.
06:37He was in hostage square today.
06:39He's meeting with Netanyahu later this today.
06:42He visited Gaza yesterday with one of the Israeli ministers, and his message so far
06:47has been to Netanyahu that the president wants to see this deal go through.
06:52And it's very clear that Witkoff speaks with the authority of President Trump.
06:56But we know that President Trump can be unpredictable.
06:59We know that his messages have been varied.
07:01He's talked about real estate development in Gaza and moving a million and a half Gazans
07:06out of Gaza to neighboring Arab states who have said absolutely no, that's a nonstarter,
07:11that cannot happen.
07:13So it's very fragile right now.
07:15I think that Netanyahu, knowing the kind of leader he is and the kind of leadership he's
07:20provided, will look for some kind of provocation that will lead to Hamas breaching the deal,
07:25and then he'll have an excuse not to go into phase two.
07:29But we still have tens of Israeli hostages being held in Gaza, and the public wants them
07:35home.
07:36I want to ask about Donald Trump's statements, because clearly this is not candidate Trump
07:40anymore who's making such outlandish statements.
07:43But in fact, the U.S. president, you say it's a nonstarter, it's a nonstarter for not just
07:47the Arab world, but for the wider international community at large.
07:52Does this kind of rhetoric from the U.S. president hurt the negotiations, or is this
07:55a strategy?
07:58We don't know how serious he is about those comments about relocating Palestinians out
08:01of Gaza.
08:02He said it could be temporary, it could be permanent.
08:05We know that no country around the region is going to accept them, and if Donald Trump
08:09wants to be so magnanimous on behalf of Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt, I would suggest
08:14that he open up the doors of the United States to Palestinians from Gaza who might want to
08:19seek refuge in the United States while Donald Trump is planning to move millions of illegal
08:25immigrants from the United States out to their home country.
08:28So I think that we have a double talk here that's not acceptable.
08:31It doesn't hurt.
08:32I'm not sure that it will prevent negotiations from moving forward.
08:35But the real focus of the international community, led by the United States, needs to be the
08:39day after in Gaza, of replacing the Hamas leadership with an acceptable Palestinian
08:44leadership that can govern Gaza and can also be acceptable to the international community
08:48to accept money, the many billions of dollars that will be necessary to rebuild Gaza.
08:54You mentioned how Hamas has staged these Hollywood-like productions when they, you know,
09:00orchestrate these ceasefire, these hostage releases.
09:02Of course, not today. We didn't see that today.
09:05But we've also seen Hamas police officers get back on the streets of Gaza in the blue
09:10police uniforms.
09:11They clearly want to show that they are in control in the Gaza Strip and that they have
09:17not been weakened.
09:18Do you feel that they have been weakened?
09:20They have certainly been weakened.
09:22This is very clear. And many of those blue police are 16, 17 year old kids who have been
09:28given a hundred dollars, a two hundred dollars, a uniform and a gun to be out there on the
09:32street. And believe me, the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, millions of
09:36Palestinians who are struggling to survive, who don't know where their next meal is coming
09:40from, will gladly take that money without being ideologically affiliated with Hamas.
09:45The problem is that there is no alternative put on the table to replace Hamas.
09:50I spoke with a friend in Gaza yesterday who said one of these people who returned to the
09:54north to find that their home is no longer there, their neighborhood is no longer there.
09:59I asked him, are you Palestinians now going to rebel against Hamas?
10:02And his response was, we have no alternative right now.
10:06Who do you want us to rebel against Hamas in favor of?
10:09It's suicide for us to stand up against Hamas when there is no viable alternative on the
10:14table right now. So a revamped Palestinian authority is not a possibility, you think?
10:20Well, it is, but it cannot be led by Mahmoud Abbas, the 90 year old Hamas Palestinian
10:26authority leaders in the 19th year of a four year term and enjoys almost no legitimacy on
10:30the Palestinian street. But he is the legal authority.
10:33He needs to be able to appoint someone who would be a temporary governor over the Gaza
10:37Strip, who would form a government, a civilian, professional, technocratic based
10:41government made up of Palestinians who could then invite troops to come from neighboring
10:46Arab countries to serve as a stabilizing force in Gaza and to accept international money
10:51for the reconstruction.
10:52But I can't see how the Palestinian Authority, as it's currently constructed under the
10:57leadership of Mahmoud Abbas, to be able to enter Gaza and govern there.
11:01But you say that no serious country will pour in their money into rebuilding Gaza with
11:06Hamas in power.
11:07How do you get Hamas to loosen their grip then?
11:10Hamas has said over and over again that they're willing to give up governance in Gaza.
11:14They're not so willing to give up their guns and that's a problem.
11:17But the Egyptians have been negotiating with Palestinian factions and have arrived at
11:21various solutions for a governing council in Gaza that Hamas would not be part of.
11:25That needs to be pursued.
11:28So far, Mahmoud Abbas has said that he doesn't agree to it and only the Palestinian
11:31Authority can rule there.
11:33So there needs to be the United States and the Saudis and the Jordanians and the Egyptians
11:37telling Mahmoud Abbas, yes, you can appoint the leader of the government in Gaza or a
11:41deputy prime minister who will govern in Gaza, whatever structure you want, but you
11:45really need to step aside and allow that government to be independent of you because
11:49you don't have a legitimacy to govern anymore.
11:52Gershon, we've of course seen scenes of joy across Israel as these hostages, Israeli
11:59hostages, get released.
12:00But the hostages who have been released up until now have have been alive.
12:05Champagne will not be popped, unfortunately, when the deceased start getting released.
12:11And obviously we talk about phase two and phase three of this deal.
12:14How does that change the dynamic?
12:16Well, first of all, I think the pressure is going to build up in Israel as we see the
12:20releases of the live hostages and them coming home to their families.
12:24And there isn't a dry eye in the country.
12:27It will certainly be a blow when we see dead bodies come over the border and crossing
12:31into Israel. But I think in both cases, we'll step up the pressure.
12:35I want Netanyahu and the government to go through with the deal.
12:37It's time for this war to end.
12:39We have to stop doing this to each other, the Israelis and the Palestinians.
12:42When the war is over, there's still seven million Palestinians and seven million Israeli
12:46Jews living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.
12:50And we need leaders here who are going to direct us in any direction, who are going to
12:54say this has to be the last war.
12:56We really have to change what we're doing.
12:58Gershon, today we saw five Thai nationals who were released as well in November 2023.
13:04We had, I believe, around 20 or 23 Thai nationals who were released.
13:08How did Thailand go about securing the release of their hostages?
13:11Were they part of these ceasefire negotiations?
13:14Well, the Thai government has been working with the Egyptians and the Qataris mainly
13:19in trying to appeal to Hamas to release them for a very long time.
13:22It's unreasonable that these Thai workers who have nothing to do with the
13:28conflict have been held hostage for 482 days.
13:32It makes no sense why Hamas didn't release them immediately after taking them hostage
13:36on October 7th, 2023.
13:39It's something that's incomprehensible why they've been held hostage all this time.
13:44And you say that the Palestinian prisoners are going to be released within the next
13:49hour or so, those who have been detained in Israeli prisoners.
13:54Can you talk us through who are some of the main, you know, heavy names, the most
13:58controversial of these prisoners who are going to be released?
14:02Right. There are going to be more than 30 released who are serving life sentences for
14:05killing Israelis.
14:07There are amongst them people who are responsible for the death of tens of Israelis
14:11and serving 40 or 50 life sentences.
14:15They are symbols of the Palestinian struggle.
14:17From what happened in the previous releases, the most serious people serving life
14:24sentences will probably be deported through Egypt and then to other countries.
14:28That's what we've seen already. I think 70 life sentence prisoners have already been
14:32deported from Palestine to Egypt and then going to Turkey or Qatar or maybe Iran or
14:39Algeria. I don't know which countries they're going to go to.
14:42They won't stay in Egypt probably and they won't be allowed to stay in Gaza or in the
14:46West Bank.
14:47And how does Israel ensure that these prisoners don't come back to hurt them in the
14:51future?
14:53The only way that Israel can do that is making sure that they can work with the countries
14:58that are accepting them and making sure that they are not engaged in terrorism.
15:02And we all know that Israel has a long track record of going after people in other
15:07countries in the world who have committed terrorist attacks against Israelis.
15:12We saw this happen after the Munich massacre at the Olympics.
15:16Everyone who was responsible for that was assassinated by Israel.
15:20So Israel's ability to assassinate Ismail Haniyeh, the Hamas leader, in the headquarters
15:25or the guest house of the Revolutionary Guards of the Iranians in the center of Tehran.
15:32So the long arm of Israel knows how to reach people who endanger Israel.
15:36Unfortunately, Israel didn't know how to protect itself back on October 7th, 2023.
15:42Indeed.
15:42Gershkin Baskin, thank you so much for joining us on the program today.