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00:00For more on this, let's bring in Francesca Albanese, special rapporteur on the situation
00:03of human rights in the Palestinian territories.
00:06Thank you for being with us here on France 24.
00:09Thank you for having me.
00:11You just heard our correspondent there, Noga Tarnapovsky, saying how for now, mediation
00:16efforts with Gaza, there was a little bit of hope at the end of last week, but they're
00:20now at a complete standstill.
00:24What needs to be done and what should be the UN's role?
00:29Yeah, I was listening to the intervention before me and I would like to reflect on the
00:35statement that there is very little push toward a ceasefire.
00:39The point is that even without push, without pressure, what concerns me the most is the
00:45total avoidance by UN member states to abide by international law.
00:52It's very clear because the International Court of Justice has issued provisional measures
00:57to avoid what it recognized to be a plausible genocide as early as January.
01:03And in July this year, it has said unequivocally that the occupation is illegal.
01:11Israel needs to withdraw the troops, dismantle the settlements, and make reparations to the
01:19Palestinians.
01:20Instead of working to make it possible, members, most member states, including in the West,
01:28are looking away, are pretending not to see what's happening.
01:31It's a carnage every single day.
01:34So yes, the United Nations is collectively responsible, but the United Nations is also
01:39fragmented, as fragmented as it has ever been.
01:43So why is there a political will when it comes to Lebanon, but not when it comes to the Palestinian
01:49territories?
01:51Not sure there is political, really political will.
01:55But also the thing to end, let's say, the war with Lebanon, there was less push internally
02:06from the settlement bloc, which is becoming more and more influential in Israeli politics,
02:13to continue the war in order to regain land, while in Gaza, it's very clear that the end
02:21goal is to get the land that is inhabited from the Palestinians.
02:26This is what I write in my last report, and it's very important that people understand
02:31what's going on, take seriously what Israeli leaders are saying, reoccupying Gaza, resettling
02:39Gaza, which means colonial erasure.
02:42So this is why I think in Gaza there is less impetus to end the war, because the war is
02:50functional to the destruction of the Palestinian people who are the obstacle between where
02:56Israel is today and the realization of greater Israel.
03:00So as you state, Benjamin Netanyahu has popular backing for a lot of his policies when it
03:07comes to what's happened the last 14 months.
03:11That's on the one hand, domestically he has support.
03:14On the other hand, you point to alleged war crimes.
03:18So how should the United Nations interact with Israel's prime minister?
03:23Well, there are different things.
03:26The United Nations will not only interact with the prime minister, the United Nations
03:31interact with Israel as a full member of the organization, a state which this year has
03:37killed hundreds of UN staff members, it has destroyed dozens of UN premises, it has even
03:46damaged and shot at UN peacekeepers.
03:49It hasn't damaged the United Nations like no other country in the entire history of
03:55the organization.
03:56And this is public knowledge.
03:58And in the face of it, Israel continues to be given carte blanche.
04:03So I think that the United Nations-
04:04Like no, I'm sorry, no other nation, I mean, I don't want to compare war crimes, but you
04:09know, there are plenty of places around the globe that have been carpet bombed by regimes.
04:14Yeah, no, no, no.
04:16But I was not mentioning, no, no, you missed the point I was trying to make.
04:20I was not mentioning the crimes against civilians.
04:24I was mentioning the assault on the United Nations as an organization.
04:29Its premises, its privileges and immunities, the all smear campaign against UNRWA, the
04:36outlawing of UNRWA.
04:37So if you only look at Israel's conduct, because you asked me how the United Nations should
04:42behave, just because the United Nations has been under assault by Israel, like no other
04:49countries, no other situations, it should consider the status of Israel as one of its
04:55members because it's in defiance of international law.
04:58Yes, like other countries.
05:00But not many other countries maintain an occupation since 1957 years.
05:07So are you suggesting a suspension or an exclusion of Israel from the United Nations?
05:12At least raising the opportunity and putting a timeline and measures that have to be taken,
05:20you know, under the law of state responsibilities, complying with the ICJ advisory opinion, imposes
05:26obligations on member states not to aid and assist the legal endeavor that Israel maintains,
05:33not to recognize legal consequences from it, and make sure that political actions lead
05:39to the cessation of the illegal act, make sure that it leads to reparations.
05:43All this is a peremptory norm of international law that has been recalled in July by the
05:50International Court of Justice.
05:52And because there is the presumption that the Israelis are committing an act of genocide
05:58within an international court of justice, there are 30 UN, more than 30 UN experts,
06:05including myself, who have denounced that genocide is being committed.
06:09In the face of this, why is Israel allowed to go away with impunity?
06:15The system risks to collapse and we will all miss it.
06:18One final quick question for you.
06:20You mentioned the International Court of Justice.
06:22Of course, the headlines have been in last week's about that other international court,
06:26the ICC.
06:28Is France correct when it says that because Israel is not a member of the International
06:33Criminal Court, that it won't arrest Benjamin Netanyahu if he shows up in France?
06:40I think that France is not correct in its interpretation.
06:44I think it's also very different from the interpretation of arrest warrants that France
06:49has given on other occasions.
06:51So it seems to me, Putin, again, had putting political convenience ahead of legality.
06:59And I'm not alone in this assessment, because there is, I think it's the syndicate of French
07:04magistrates who have, if I'm not wrong, with the name of the organization, which has pushed
07:09back and said that this is not correct and it should be not the political establishment,
07:16but the courts to decide what's the course of action to abide by the ICC arrest warrants.
07:23So it seems to me that French magistrates agree that in case one of the three people
07:30who have been reached by an arrest warrant set foot in France or in other places where
07:36the ICC stated applies, they will be arrested.
07:41I want to thank the UN Human Rights Commission's Francesca Albanese for being with us from Tunis.