Shaurya Doval on Why Successful Businessmen Are Hated in India | Strategic Minds - video Dailymotion

OutlookIndia

Fueled by the financial support of Tatas and Birlas, India’s freedom struggle achieved unimaginable milestones. But once considered the backbone of India’s nationalist movement, the corporate giants are now dismissed as profit-chasing hounds/narcissists. Why has the public sentiment turned from admiration to disillusionment? Has the Indian corporate sector abandoned its legacy of nation-building, or is there a ray of hope at the end of the tunnel?  In an exclusive discussion with Outlook Business editor Neeraj Thakur, Shaurya Doval, Founding Director of the right-wing Think Tank India Foundation, explores the factors that contributed to this dramatic shift in the post-independence era.

Transcript

00:00:00Money-making was a bad thing.

00:00:01Bollywood also played a very important role in it.

00:00:04Businesses are seen as essentially exploiters of the people.

00:00:07Where do you think the Indian politicians went wrong?

00:00:10Congress was forced to liberalise in the 90s

00:00:13because their policies of the 60s, 70s and particularly the 80s

00:00:16brought the country into bankruptcy by early 91.

00:00:19At one point in time in the 60s, our income tax rate was 102%.

00:00:22You had to be a crook to be able to do business in this country.

00:00:25Should Indian government support Indian companies?

00:00:28I think the answer is yes.

00:00:30Once you decide to play the game, please for God's sake,

00:00:33maintain the sanctity of contact.

00:00:35Winning at all costs becomes important or winning with principles.

00:00:40We are far, far, far better than most countries in the world.

00:00:43Do you think that India would ever be able to have a businessman

00:00:46as ex-prime minister just the way Donald Trump is?

00:00:49India will progress when what we know is more important than who we know.

00:00:58In 1886, Chamshedji Tata purchased a loss-making mill and called it Swadeshi Mill.

00:01:13In 1886, Chamshedji Tata purchased a loss-making mill and called it Swadeshi Mill.

00:01:25Haji Osma Seth, a renowned businessman, was known as the cash bank of Indian National Congress.

00:01:31Mr. Jamnalal Bajaj was funding the Indian National Congress for more than two decades.

00:01:36But those were old times, the times when Indian businesses were not looked down upon.

00:01:41But times have changed now.

00:01:42Nobody in India trusts Indian businesses anymore.

00:01:45They are seen as profit-hungry entities whose only interest lies in growing at the cost of common Indian.

00:01:52Welcome to Strategic Minds.

00:01:54I'm your host, Neera Sthakur.

00:01:56And today we have with us Mr. Shouria Duval,

00:01:58who is the founding member of right-wing think tank India Foundation.

00:02:02He has been a banker for over 25 years in different parts of the world.

00:02:07And today we will be discussing how and why Indian businesses lost the legacy of being the champions of India's national interest.

00:02:15Welcome to our show, sir.

00:02:16Thank you for having me on the show.

00:02:18So today's topic is going to be, can Indian businesses reclaim their nationalist legacy?

00:02:23If we go back to India's independence struggle,

00:02:26in those days, all the Indian capitalist industries, they were seen as nationalist businesses.

00:02:32From the Tata Group to Birlas and so many other Indian businesses,

00:02:35they did a lot of things that earned them the name of being national champions.

00:02:39That's not the case anymore.

00:02:41If you just look at modern India, businesses are not trusted,

00:02:44neither by the politicians nor by the general public.

00:02:48What do you think is the reason behind that?

00:02:50I think it is the subsequent events post-independence that changed the nature of how business was perceived in India.

00:02:59Particularly post-independence, the taking of a socialist line by then the ruling dispensation in the country.

00:03:07You see, when independence movement was on in full swing,

00:03:11like every movement, it needed money.

00:03:14It needed, Gandhiji had to raise money to be able to sustain the independence movement.

00:03:19The British were not going to fund it.

00:03:21Nobody else was going to fund it.

00:03:23So, obviously, at that point in time, the Indian business or the well-off people in India rose

00:03:28and actually funded the entire struggle because they felt that they had a stake in this.

00:03:34That as Indians, it was important that their money be used in achieving a cause which they thought was noble.

00:03:41And that is why when we look at our history, we find that whether the Tatas, the Dhalmiyas, the Birlas,

00:03:47they gave away a lot of their money in times which were difficult when there was a foreign power

00:03:52and even took on the foreign powers who must have, I'm sure, penalized them for their political affiliation

00:03:58but actually supported the independence movement.

00:04:02And that is why when independence happened, Gandhiji died in Birla House.

00:04:08He used to live in the Birla House here in Delhi.

00:04:10There was nothing blasphemous about that.

00:04:12Today, you cannot see a politician be seen in going to an industrialist's house, etc.

00:04:18So, the reason is because, as I said, that post-independence, once we took the socialist approach,

00:04:25we started profiteering and money-making was a bad thing.

00:04:29We peddled a narrative in the country that money-making was a bad thing

00:04:34and that all people who made money made them at the expense of the poor people.

00:04:39Particularly, Bollywood also played a very important role in it, right?

00:04:42Because if you look at the 60s and the 70s, we started looking at the Poonjiwad,

00:04:47you know, saying, and, you know, the angry young man struggle against profiteers and etc.

00:04:52So, I think it was a combination of many things that came together

00:04:55that actually led to a situation where we are today,

00:04:58where businesses are seen as essentially exploiters of the people,

00:05:04profiteers and people who make money on the back of the effort and hard work of ordinary citizens.

00:05:10But, Mr. Doval, don't you think that during that period, the 50s and 60s,

00:05:15there was actually a real sentiment that reflected in Indian movies

00:05:19because there was the big Bombay mill strike and there were so many other strikes

00:05:23where trade unions actually amassed a lot of people rallying behind them

00:05:28saying that, you know, the capitalists or the mill owners are exploiting them.

00:05:32There must have been something, Ron, that was committed by the Indian business houses of those times?

00:05:38Yes and no. Yes, you are right.

00:05:41Because, you see, what happened was that when independence happened,

00:05:45the businesses had pretty much lost a lot of money supporting the movement.

00:05:50So, once the independence came, I'm sure they went to the leaders of that point in time

00:05:54and said that, you know, it's payback time.

00:05:58You know, we have been nationalist business now that the country is independent.

00:06:01Put us in a situation that where we can earn our money back in any way.

00:06:04They were the only people who were around here.

00:06:07That is why, if you remember, that Gandhiji had said at the time of independence,

00:06:11disband the Congress Party.

00:06:13Right.

00:06:14Because Congress was a movement.

00:06:16People had funded an independence movement.

00:06:18But Gandhiji died.

00:06:20Congress never got disbanded.

00:06:22Congress became a political party and has used the platform of a narrative

00:06:27to actually acquire political power.

00:06:29Because before independence, everybody was part of the Congress movement.

00:06:33It wasn't a political party.

00:06:34It was a national movement.

00:06:35And I think this is where the problem starts.

00:06:38This is where the problem starts.

00:06:40Because once independence happened, Congress acquires power.

00:06:43We become a polity.

00:06:44And the businesses go back to the government, which is saying, please help us build businesses.

00:06:49The government of the day, effectively, which is the Congress Party, at that point in time,

00:06:54realizes that they are and they also taken a sort of an ideological view that they want to be center of left

00:07:01and they want to be a socialist government.

00:07:04And so, therefore, they have to now peddle a narrative where they have to essentially look to be seen as pro-people.

00:07:14And showing being pro-people means that they have to be anti-somebody.

00:07:18Now, who have to be anti?

00:07:20They have to be anti-the businesses.

00:07:22Now, the businesses also, obviously, as you said, realize that if this is how the trend is going,

00:07:27then they have to strike deals with the political party of that day.

00:07:31They have to find a way where in which the political parties can continue to support them.

00:07:37And therefore, this whole nefarious relationship between business and politics starts.

00:07:44We actually then, the government of the state becomes a dispenser of licenses to businesses.

00:07:51And businesses find a way of using gratification to acquire those licenses.

00:07:55And over the years, this methodology of interaction between business and government becomes more embedded across the society.

00:08:07And as you said, by the time the late 50s comes, 60s comes, it is already now in the system and scandals start coming out.

00:08:15And then for even Bollywood picks up this trend.

00:08:19And across the country, you start people realizing that something is wrong between the established businesses and the government and the relationship that they hold.

00:08:27Right.

00:08:28But while Congress was a party that endorsed socialism, Congress was also the party that endorsed capitalism in 90s.

00:08:34When the Narasimha Rao government, with Mr. Manmohan Singh as its finance minister, they endorsed capitalism.

00:08:39And they believed that now is the time to do away with license charge and bring foreign capital and promote Indian businesses.

00:08:47But where do you think, Mr. Duval, the Indian politicians went wrong?

00:08:52Because whichever party has been in power, they have been accusing the...

00:08:56Whichever party has been in the opposition, they have accused the party in power of having some sort of a deal making with the businessman.

00:09:04And how do you think this conundrum can be resolved in the context of India?

00:09:09See, first is that Congress was not...

00:09:12Congress was forced to liberalize in the 90s because their policies of the 60s, 70s and particularly the 80s brought the country into bankruptcy by early 91.

00:09:22You know, when we actually privatized, it wasn't really our...

00:09:25It wasn't Congress's ideological view that now they are free market and, you know, they would support businesses.

00:09:30We were in a situation where we didn't have 15 days of imports left and we had to pledge our gold.

00:09:35So, let's be honest, our liberalization and our pro-business policies of the Congress were driven out of compulsion or out of bankruptcy rather than any grandiose thinking about it.

00:09:47Right.

00:09:47Congress party is a center of left party.

00:09:50Essentially and historically, it has believed that the welfare of the people should be best done through the state.

00:09:58And the resources must be centralized with the state.

00:10:01And therefore, when such a situation happens, the state becomes a benefactor to business of the resources of the nation.

00:10:09Because all the resources of the nation are effectively bought under the state.

00:10:13Right. So, that is why their whole License Raj started.

00:10:16That is why they started, you know, at one point in time in the 60s, our income tax rate was 102 percent.

00:10:22The total tax rate in this country.

00:10:23You had to be a crook to be able to do business in this country.

00:10:26The only way you could do business was by cheating the government.

00:10:29Now, once you started cheating the government, you were susceptible to being penalized by the government.

00:10:33So, therefore, then you had to gratify and pay speed money to be able to continue to operate.

00:10:41So, the businesses also learned that the only way you could operate with these kind of people was to find a mechanism of quid pro quo.

00:10:50And I don't blame them completely.

00:10:51So, what happened?

00:10:52The businesses started thinking that, listen, these people will always, will overtly never acknowledge us, will never acknowledge our contribution, will always tell the people when they have to, you know, as they say, running with the hares and hunting with the hounds.

00:11:06When they go to the people, they will say, all these people are crooks.

00:11:08Please give us your votes.

00:11:10But when they want to fund these elections, they will come to us.

00:11:12So, let us do one thing with them.

00:11:14Let us also find an operating mechanism.

00:11:16Everything is licensed, Raj.

00:11:17So, let us try to find a way of getting these benefits from the government through being able to establish a quid pro quo.

00:11:26And that is why even in the late 90s and even to a great extent through the Congress regime with all the scams that came out, whether it was the coal scam, the telecom scam, was essentially every time that the center had to give something to business.

00:11:40That we subsequently found out the business paid money under the table to acquire those licenses.

00:11:46What was the need of that license?

00:11:48There was a time in India where everything was licensed.

00:11:51Even a telephone was licensed.

00:11:52Even a gas cylinder was licensed.

00:11:54Because every time you had to acquire the license, you had to pay speed money, which is the foundation of corruption.

00:12:00And therefore, both businesses, as well as the politician, learned that this was the operating mechanism.

00:12:08This was integrated in the architecture of the design system of the country's socio-political economic system.

00:12:14And the common man was obviously both a victim and an observer to this.

00:12:20Couldn't do much about it.

00:12:21But actually looked at it as something that he had to take for granted.

00:12:26And that is why the problem that has emerged, that why businesses, as you said, over the last 75 years have lost respect in this country.

00:12:35And the businessman has lost respect in this country from being seen as somebody who helped, who were nationalists, who helped the country achieve independence,

00:12:44to being looked at some people who avoid taxes, who get licenses through their proximity to politicians,

00:12:49and whose only value add is being able to get some benefaction from the state at the expense of the common man.

00:12:59In your last answer, you brought in the issue of 2G scam and coal scam.

00:13:03We saw a government falling because of those scams.

00:13:06However, post the falling of the government and the formation of the new government,

00:13:11the Supreme Court could not come up with any decision which could actually lay the blame on someone,

00:13:19be it 2G scam or other scams.

00:13:21So do you think it is the failure of India's judicial system also that while governments can be formed or fallen

00:13:28on the basis of allegations of scams, nothing much comes out later on?

00:13:32No, I think quite the opposite.

00:13:34I think it is in the irony of the situation that this has become so ingrained in the system

00:13:40that getting conviction in the court of law has become so difficult

00:13:45because it is done with such sophistication over the last 75 years

00:13:50that actually being able to establish it in court becomes very difficult.

00:13:54Everybody knows that they have done it.

00:13:55They know they have done it.

00:13:56People know they have done it.

00:13:58We see, we watch, even in our ordinary lives, we watch corruption happen every time.

00:14:02But why is it that we are not able to do something about it is because once a country gets its architecture wrong,

00:14:09once smart people figure out how to game the system, the gaming of the system also becomes very sophisticated

00:14:16and it takes a lot of time to unwind it.

00:14:19So, I would not say that just because we could not get a conviction in the court of law does mean that those people were innocent

00:14:25and that nothing had happened.

00:14:28What it means was that we need to further sophisticate our laws.

00:14:32We need to further make our investigation better.

00:14:35And we need to be a step ahead of the people who are gaming the system

00:14:39so that we can actually establish that in the court of law

00:14:43and even have laws actually that are more dynamic and understand that, you know,

00:14:48that every time the kind of evidence that they want to see will not be available.

00:14:54But that does not take away from the fact that the crime was committed.

00:14:58So, I think I would look at it like this that it is not that just our judiciary was weak

00:15:05or our investigation was weak or there was no scam that happened.

00:15:08I look at it like by saying that India still has a longer way to go

00:15:12to be able to establish the rule of law which exists on paper on the ground.

00:15:17Mr. Doval, I will bring to notice a recent development

00:15:20that when the Supreme Court of India gave a ruling against Nestle on double taxation issue,

00:15:25it led to Switzerland withdrawing the MFN status for India,

00:15:30which clearly shows that the foreign governments back their companies

00:15:34and they believe that, you know, those companies are just not private sector companies.

00:15:41They represent the interests of those nations.

00:15:43Do you think an Indian government would ever be able to back its company anywhere in the world?

00:15:48So, my honest answer would be no.

00:15:51Why?

00:15:51But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, right?

00:15:54Just because Switzerland did that for Switzerland, it may be fine for Switzerland.

00:15:58I have nobody to comment on that.

00:16:00But from Indian's perspective, I think that that's fine that if you don't back it in this way, right?

00:16:05That our trade disputes mean that we have to get necessarily a benefit to an Indian.

00:16:09We, I think India is a country run by the rule of law.

00:16:13The government is equidistant and should be equidistant from all companies.

00:16:17And I mean all companies, I mean all companies.

00:16:19I don't even mean that they should not do it even for public sector companies.

00:16:22Because that is where the problem, it should be equidistant from all companies.

00:16:26Whether it's a public sector or a private, because all are Indian companies.

00:16:29It's just a matter of who owns it, right?

00:16:32In a private, it's an individual who owns it.

00:16:34In the public, it's a government.

00:16:35But those companies must operate by their own corporate governance,

00:16:38must operate independently and must be subject to the laws and rules, etc.

00:16:42of their shareholders or the rule of the law of the land.

00:16:47Now, supporting an Indian company does not mean that the nation necessarily changes its policy

00:16:52when specific individual company is discriminated against.

00:16:56There are many other ways to help those companies and help our Indian companies.

00:17:00So, I think what Sudhaled might have overstretched by revoking India's MFN status

00:17:06just because of a Nestle issue.

00:17:08Nestle does not mean we need to do that.

00:17:10But the point that if you are making is that should Indian government support Indian companies,

00:17:16I think the answer is yes, overseas.

00:17:19And it must support them, not for either fear or favor to any specific one.

00:17:23But in national interest, if any national interest is hurt

00:17:26by Indian companies being discriminated against or being penalized for being Indian.

00:17:32Sir, I would like to bring to your notice one issue that happened in post-2010 period.

00:17:37The government of India introduced retrospective tax law on a certain company in India's telecom sector.

00:17:46And that decision is seen as a path-breaking decision because that is what led to the decline in FDI coming to India

00:17:54as a share of its GDP because the foreign investors lost their trust in the Indian among policymakers.

00:18:00Do you think that that decision was wrong and whether yes or no, depending upon your answer,

00:18:08even the government that came after that has not been able to do anything about this thing?

00:18:13So, what's your take on this issue?

00:18:15The very fact that the court ruled in the favor of Vodafone,

00:18:20if you are referring to the Vodafone case,

00:18:23established that India was a country where the rule of law runs and has an independent judiciary.

00:18:30That is the best thing that could happen for an investor or somebody investing in any jurisdiction.

00:18:35So, that was a very big positive for India

00:18:38and continues to be cited the very fact that the Indian judiciary,

00:18:41time as it may take, delayed as the process may be,

00:18:44ultimately delivers a justice on what it believes is right or wrong.

00:18:50So, nobody had a problem with that.

00:18:52The problem was, so that was a big positive, I think.

00:18:56The problem happened was that when the decision went against the favor of the government of India,

00:19:01then Finance Minister Pranav Mukherjee brought in a law through parliament

00:19:05with retrospective effect to overturn, in essence, the decision of the courts.

00:19:14Now, that was cheating as perceived by the others.

00:19:17By saying that now, now that the decision is gone and you are a sovereign,

00:19:21you can always change the law, you will now change the law with a retrospective effect

00:19:25so that you can overturn the decision.

00:19:27Now, that nobody can take against because at the end of the day,

00:19:30it's the sovereignty of every country.

00:19:32And I think that is what hurt India.

00:19:34Indonesia did that thing with regards to the coal mines.

00:19:36Yeah, exactly.

00:19:37But, you know, that's not a, that's, I mean, I would not quote the fact that,

00:19:40you know, Indonesia ranks necessarily at the top end of where, you know,

00:19:44in terms of, you know, certainty of investment.

00:19:46When companies invest in a country, they want to see the sanctity of contract.

00:19:53As a sovereign, you are independent to make any law that you want to make.

00:19:58Nobody is holding it against you.

00:19:59But, please identify the playing field before.

00:20:03Before you start, you would say it's a game of cricket.

00:20:06You read the rules of cricket.

00:20:07Halfway, you say now that we are losing in cricket, we are changing the rules.

00:20:10It is a game of football.

00:20:11Now, till yesterday, the ball hitting your feet was a foul.

00:20:16But today, you can kick the ball because now in cricket, we are losing.

00:20:18So, we are changing.

00:20:19That is not acceptable.

00:20:20It is a rule of cricket.

00:20:21You take your time.

00:20:22If you are not sure, take another six months.

00:20:25Don't play the game of cricket if you are weak in it.

00:20:27Play the game of football.

00:20:28Right?

00:20:28So, the point is that, but once you decide to play the game, please, for God's sake,

00:20:34maintain the sanctity of contract.

00:20:37Countries that have done well, that have attracted foreign direct investment, including India today.

00:20:42The reason India gets, is one of the top FDI destinations today, and nobody codes this case,

00:20:46is for the last 10 years, you see the certainty of contract.

00:20:50You see the fact that whatever happens, government lives by the rules that it has passed.

00:20:54And it does not follow the legislative process to overturn legal losses.

00:21:00And at the same time, users go through the court of law if it believes that it is being wrongly done and wins in the court of law.

00:21:06So, since we have discussed the issue of corporate governance, and Indian companies definitely do not rank very high on corporate governance,

00:21:14even if we just look at the tech sector, there are a lot of allegations against Indian founders in the past also, in the IT sector also, in I think the Satyam scam.

00:21:24This is not the case with most of the European companies and the US-based companies.

00:21:32Where do you think Indian governance laws have failed the idea of ensuring that India is a nation where corporate governance is supreme?

00:21:42Yeah, I would frame it like this.

00:21:45I don't think you can compare because I think even European and American companies flout corporate governance a lot.

00:21:50So, it cannot be said, we cannot generalize by saying Indian companies are bad and, you know, US companies,

00:21:56because they also have enough cases.

00:21:58If you scan the papers, you will see every second day they are being penalized by their regulators.

00:22:03I think the problem is a little bit more nuanced.

00:22:06The issue what you are really saying is that India still needs to raise the level of its corporate governance.

00:22:14India's companies had to actually realize that short-circuiting corporate governance or not investing in corporate governance is a short-sighted strategy that costs them more than the cost of adhering to corporate governance.

00:22:31And the reason that this has happened was going back to the earlier problem that I said, we developed a corporate culture in the last 75 years where we didn't pay a premium for corporate governance.

00:22:43It is only in the recent past with, as we have started getting institutional investors, global investors, and now even domestic savings,

00:22:51that we realize that if you are going to raise capital, if you are going to increase the value, then people want to know that you are a safe bet to invest.

00:22:58Tata gets a premium because its corporate governance is very high.

00:23:02Because when people invest in Tata, they know that their money is safe, whether an institutional investor or a domestic.

00:23:08But when you invest in a fly-by-night company that is benefiting from the IPOs market or a buoyant market,

00:23:15you don't know whether this company will be around two or five years from now.

00:23:18You can make some short-term money, but you don't know if this is a safe bet.

00:23:22So that company has little to do in terms of investing in corporate governance.

00:23:26And I think what needs to change and what I think is already also changing is that as Indian companies become more sophisticated,

00:23:33as they become more long-term, as they become bigger, as they start raising money from all over the world,

00:23:38they actually start realizing the value of corporate governance.

00:23:41So corporate governance has to come a lot from inside the companies.

00:23:46They have to see that this corporate governance actually is beneficial to them.

00:23:50It makes economic sense to them that the two rupees that is invested in adhering to corporate governance brings you 20 rupees of profit.

00:23:59If the company believes that these two rupees of investing in corporate governance does not even give 50 paisa of profit,

00:24:04then none of them will invest.

00:24:06So I think that it is not something that corporate governance, of course,

00:24:10it helps if you operate in a regime, in a country where corporate governance standards are high.

00:24:16But India already has platinum corporate governance standards.

00:24:19Actually, on paper, India's corporate governance is probably top of the shelf.

00:24:25It's the practice of which that is sometimes desires to be improved.

00:24:31And the practice of that is partly, as I said, because there is no economic benefit to the company.

00:24:36And secondly, you know, sometimes in our own domestic culture,

00:24:40we believe in this Jugal culture, which says, you know, everything flies.

00:24:43So let's just do a little short-circuit, what's the difference?

00:24:46But is there a way to deal with this culture?

00:24:48Because I know, especially India's startup sector, we have seen so many founders,

00:24:52just after making some amount of money, when they came into entrepreneurship,

00:24:57they said they want to make the Google and Facebook of the world.

00:25:01But after maybe making just 100, 200 crore rupees,

00:25:03they, you know, they went berserk and they just thought this is the time to make all the money.

00:25:07And then they just lost their wine and everything, you know, they lost the company as well.

00:25:11In that process, India also lost its reputation.

00:25:14Is there a way to fix this culture of Indians?

00:25:17Actually, this culture will have to go back to the, you know, goes back to our schools, our homes.

00:25:22You know, you again talked about the businesses that were funding the nationalist movement.

00:25:26It goes back to a society which prides, which respects and values idealism, honesty, loyalty,

00:25:34you know, which talks about the very fact of doing things right.

00:25:37It pays a premium.

00:25:38You don't just get it when you make money.

00:25:40You teach those people when they were kids that, you know, far more than making money,

00:25:46it's making money ethically, where ethic becomes a part of your society.

00:25:50So I think that's a bigger question that we need to ask,

00:25:53that are we going to be a society where making money, winning at all costs becomes important or winning with principles?

00:26:01Winning, yes, but with principles, with ethics becomes important.

00:26:04And I think once we start bringing that in our schools, in our colleges, in our universities,

00:26:09and we have an idealistic reason why we are doing what we are doing,

00:26:13then human behavior leads itself to be acting ethically.

00:26:19Otherwise, in short of those benchmarks or standards,

00:26:23where you feel that nobody really cares, everybody,

00:26:25the people's behavior is then becomes like that.

00:26:40Yeah, I remember a friend of mine telling me that if you steal 100 rupees, you will go to jail.

00:26:45If you steal, you know, 1 crore rupees, maybe Daruga will visit your home.

00:26:51And if you steal a lakh crore rupees, I think, you know, you can go anywhere in the world and, you know,

00:26:59maybe the prime ministers or the chief minister will come to your home.

00:27:03So that is what has to be changed.

00:27:04And, you know, that is what this, again, with due respect, this government is actually changing.

00:27:08You know, when they bought this ICBC code, you know, for the banking code,

00:27:11you know, one of the things was, was that actually start shaming the people who default banks.

00:27:17And you could have, you could walk around, go around Delhi, some of these premium colonies of Delhi,

00:27:22where, you know, these big people, crore pati stay,

00:27:25and you would see a notice in front of their house saying that here they have defaulted the bank,

00:27:29this is the home of Kudki.

00:27:31That man who defrauded the bank, that was the worst thing for him.

00:27:35Because now you have to face his wife, his children, his neighbors, his relatives,

00:27:38and find that he stole money, right?

00:27:42That shaming actually brought about change in behavior.

00:27:47Or is done to change behavior because that is what it does.

00:27:50It is the shaming of these situations.

00:27:51Just like celebrating an honest man, shaming the person who violates and, you know, the law,

00:27:58actually brings about some behavior.

00:28:00Otherwise, this tendency happens what you said.

00:28:02You know, there is impunity.

00:28:04What is the difference?

00:28:05Law is not for us.

00:28:07We can buy money.

00:28:09You know, kind of service.

00:28:10This is what we are saying.

00:28:11So, as long as any society, any economic system relies on this basis,

00:28:16and we have ample evidence, you can look across the country,

00:28:20across the world, sorry,

00:28:22the countries that have rule of law,

00:28:24the countries where rule of law is adhered to,

00:28:28where people behave ethically,

00:28:29where businesses behave responsibly and ethically,

00:28:32they drive far more value.

00:28:34They get more premium.

00:28:35They make more money in the long run.

00:28:36They just have to believe that investing in this is worth it

00:28:40because it pays off in the long run.

00:28:42Do you think that in India,

00:28:43even if, like, you want to establish the rule of law,

00:28:45the judicial system is so tiring for most people in the country

00:28:50that they actually give up their hope on that,

00:28:53be it businesses.

00:28:54And what matters in India's judicial system is

00:28:56whether you can hire a more expensive lawyer

00:29:00and you know more number of people than your rival party.

00:29:03It doesn't matter whether you are on the right side or not.

00:29:08What matters is your ability to maneuver the system.

00:29:11Where do you think the beginning can be made

00:29:12to fix this problem,

00:29:14which is very peculiar to India

00:29:16or maybe the developing countries?

00:29:17So I will answer your question.

00:29:20You know, I've had the luxury of traveling

00:29:22to most parts of the world

00:29:23and both in the nature of my job,

00:29:26in the nature of my own personal experience.

00:29:29And I'll tell you,

00:29:29we are far, far, far better

00:29:31than most countries in the world.

00:29:32So that's a good point.

00:29:34We are not perfect, right?

00:29:35We, as you mentioned,

00:29:36we, you know, we have issues.

00:29:39But we still today as a society,

00:29:42as a rule of law,

00:29:43have a benchmark of what is right and wrong.

00:29:46We're not like countries where the rule,

00:29:48there is no more any benchmark.

00:29:51That is also a reason.

00:29:52There is no shame in violating the law,

00:29:54being unethical.

00:29:55And there are majority of the,

00:29:57many countries in the world are like that.

00:29:59You know, in India,

00:29:59we actually still have that advantage

00:30:01that we still have the,

00:30:04we still know what is right.

00:30:06We still have, as I said,

00:30:07a law which is well codified

00:30:09and is very clear.

00:30:11Our problem is,

00:30:12or part of the problem is

00:30:13that we are narrowing the gap

00:30:15between our practice

00:30:16and what is on paper.

00:30:17And I think over time,

00:30:19that gap is becoming narrower,

00:30:21not wider.

00:30:22We are coming,

00:30:23we are essentially becoming

00:30:24a much more ethical

00:30:25and a rule-based society.

00:30:28And the rules are,

00:30:28laws are becoming

00:30:29more easily implementable

00:30:31and partly for many reasons,

00:30:34including technology,

00:30:35which now makes it more difficult.

00:30:37But that is changing the way

00:30:39our behavior as a country

00:30:43and as businesses is.

00:30:45So I am not,

00:30:45I'm not,

00:30:46I'm not actually,

00:30:47I'm quite hopeful

00:30:48and not actually

00:30:49sort of devoid of hope

00:30:51that, you know,

00:30:52things are going

00:30:52in the reverse direction.

00:30:53Quite the contrary, I think.

00:30:55India is inching closer.

00:30:56Yes, as I said,

00:30:57we are not perfect.

00:30:59We are not perfect

00:31:00because of some mistakes we made.

00:31:02Some of the idiosyncrasies

00:31:03that were left,

00:31:03we inherited as part of colonialism

00:31:05that brought about,

00:31:07you know,

00:31:08sort of an aberration

00:31:09in our societal behavior.

00:31:11But fundamentally,

00:31:12our behavior in this country

00:31:14is good.

00:31:17You know,

00:31:17we have a concept of dharma.

00:31:18We have a concept of

00:31:19we have a concept

00:31:22of what is right,

00:31:22what is wrong.

00:31:24And by and large,

00:31:25the society still respects

00:31:26those people

00:31:27who follow

00:31:28the path of righteousness.

00:31:31And so I think

00:31:33now the question is

00:31:33how quickly we can bring this.

00:31:35And you see that

00:31:36in every aspect.

00:31:37You know,

00:31:37you see that,

00:31:38for example,

00:31:39in our taxation.

00:31:41Technology is driving

00:31:42better behavior.

00:31:43It's much more difficult

00:31:44to evade the tax man.

00:31:46So partly technology

00:31:48is ensuring that

00:31:49is partly celebrating

00:31:50some,

00:31:51you know,

00:31:52people who are

00:31:53good taxpayers

00:31:54who can legitimately

00:31:56enjoy the money

00:31:56that they make

00:31:57after paying their taxes

00:31:58is driving a behavior

00:31:59in society

00:32:00where people are generally

00:32:01are starting to say,

00:32:02yeah,

00:32:02this is better off.

00:32:03The cost and hassle

00:32:05of,

00:32:05you know,

00:32:06avoiding the taxes

00:32:07is just not worth it.

00:32:09So I think

00:32:09it is that

00:32:10where we have to focus

00:32:11on channelizing

00:32:12the national effort

00:32:13of trying to bring

00:32:14our behavior closer

00:32:16to,

00:32:17you know,

00:32:18theory

00:32:18or to,

00:32:20you know,

00:32:21our standards

00:32:21but not dilute

00:32:23our standards.

00:32:24All right.

00:32:25Now,

00:32:25Mr. Doval,

00:32:26I will take you

00:32:26to the last

00:32:27two economic surveys

00:32:28where both economic surveys,

00:32:31they mentioned

00:32:32that Indian businesses

00:32:33have made

00:32:34decent amount of profits,

00:32:35the larger companies

00:32:36post-COVID

00:32:37because of the tax breaks

00:32:39that were announced

00:32:40by the Finance Ministry

00:32:40in 2019

00:32:41and even after that,

00:32:42you know,

00:32:43there was very fast recovery.

00:32:44But they did not

00:32:45invest back

00:32:47in creating

00:32:48the capacities

00:32:49that could have led

00:32:49to the job creation.

00:32:51Don't you think

00:32:51that this is once again

00:32:52the case

00:32:53of thinking

00:32:55only about profits

00:32:56and not nation building

00:32:57because India now

00:32:58is at that juncture

00:33:00where next 20 to 30 years

00:33:02we need to grow

00:33:03at,

00:33:04you know,

00:33:04maybe in double digits,

00:33:05if not possible

00:33:06in double digits,

00:33:07at least 8%

00:33:08plus growth rate

00:33:08for India to become

00:33:10a developed nation

00:33:10by 2047.

00:33:12So once again,

00:33:13the point comes in

00:33:13that the government

00:33:14trusted the Indian

00:33:16corporate sector

00:33:17and they did not

00:33:18repay the way

00:33:19they should have

00:33:20in the interest

00:33:21of the country.

00:33:21What is your take on this?

00:33:23So I think

00:33:24this is partly true

00:33:25that the corporate sector

00:33:28hasn't stepped up

00:33:29to the

00:33:30sort of national requirement

00:33:33of capital investment

00:33:34in the last few years.

00:33:36but we have to try

00:33:37and analyze

00:33:38why this has happened

00:33:39and we have to

00:33:40I think

00:33:40go a little bit

00:33:41deeper into this

00:33:42because

00:33:42my sense

00:33:43is this

00:33:44and this is my personal

00:33:45view

00:33:46that there is no

00:33:47corporate sector

00:33:48as organized

00:33:49as somebody

00:33:50like really says

00:33:51you know,

00:33:51this is a national objective

00:33:52and therefore

00:33:53let's work towards it.

00:33:54That's not how

00:33:55normal day is

00:33:56and normal work

00:33:56in a society

00:33:58where there is no

00:33:58impending

00:33:59national problem works.

00:34:01When there are issues

00:34:02something like

00:34:02COVID happens

00:34:03or war happens

00:34:03everybody comes together

00:34:04but on a normal day

00:34:06a company exists

00:34:07to make profit.

00:34:08Right?

00:34:08Now a company exists

00:34:10to make returns.

00:34:12I think that

00:34:13the corporate sector

00:34:14believes

00:34:15that the general

00:34:16momentum of India's

00:34:18economic growth

00:34:18which has allowed

00:34:20India to become

00:34:21a very big market

00:34:22a very lucrative market

00:34:23is allowing them

00:34:25to make abnormal money

00:34:26without making

00:34:28too much of an effort

00:34:28already.

00:34:30So therefore

00:34:30the effort of investment

00:34:32the effort of

00:34:34building out

00:34:35is not worth it

00:34:37because you are

00:34:37anyway making money.

00:34:39Right?

00:34:39Because the economy

00:34:41is growing

00:34:41at its own

00:34:42percent of pace.

00:34:44I think that is

00:34:45and that is why

00:34:45our growth is also

00:34:46actually stagnated

00:34:47from 8% to 6.5%.

00:34:49What we need

00:34:50to be able to do

00:34:51is to actually

00:34:52engage with

00:34:53the private sector

00:34:54give them

00:34:55a rallying objective

00:34:56to say that

00:34:58this 6.5%

00:34:59to 8%

00:35:00has to be

00:35:01bridged by them

00:35:01and that effort

00:35:03that they are

00:35:04going to do

00:35:04is worth

00:35:05the effort

00:35:07of time and money

00:35:08that they are

00:35:09going to deploy

00:35:10because otherwise

00:35:11they are saying

00:35:11why put a factory?

00:35:14Why make the effort

00:35:15of producing something?

00:35:16The value of the land

00:35:17anyway is going up.

00:35:18Is there a structural

00:35:19problem in the way

00:35:20Indian economy is growing?

00:35:21No, yes.

00:35:23A lot of economists

00:35:24have actually said

00:35:25that there has been

00:35:26a financialization

00:35:26of the Indian economy.

00:35:27Exactly.

00:35:28The very fact

00:35:28that our manufacturing

00:35:29is stuck at 15%

00:35:31of our GDP

00:35:32when it should be

00:35:33at 25% of the GDP

00:35:34is a fundamental problem.

00:35:36This is the structural problem

00:35:37and that is why

00:35:39not many people

00:35:40are,

00:35:41companies are investing

00:35:42in CapEx

00:35:44to build

00:35:45their productive capacity

00:35:46and that is

00:35:47what we need to do

00:35:48and that is why

00:35:48the government's

00:35:49constant,

00:35:50you know,

00:35:51saying that

00:35:52when Aat Nirvar Bharat

00:35:53make in India

00:35:54increase manufacturing

00:35:55is purely to drive

00:35:57the corporate sector

00:35:58to come back

00:36:00and invest

00:36:00the money

00:36:02that it is making

00:36:02into the

00:36:04productive capacity.

00:36:06But the corporate sector's

00:36:08vein is

00:36:09that still

00:36:09enough,

00:36:10so much red-tapism exists,

00:36:12so much of bureaucratic

00:36:13overhang exists

00:36:14that for the kind of money

00:36:16that we are making

00:36:16the effort is not worth it.

00:36:19Right?

00:36:20You know,

00:36:20so how do we make them

00:36:21realize?

00:36:22It's just a trade-off,

00:36:23a cost-benefit.

00:36:24They are businessmen.

00:36:25If you can make them

00:36:26believe that the cost

00:36:27of investing

00:36:28is less than

00:36:29the benefit

00:36:30of making it

00:36:31and the benefit

00:36:32is worth it.

00:36:33Right?

00:36:33That is,

00:36:34again as I said,

00:36:35I'll give you an example.

00:36:36I'm a businessman.

00:36:37I have a piece of land

00:36:39and somebody tells me

00:36:40put a factory,

00:36:41invest 10 crore rupees

00:36:43and you make,

00:36:44you will make

00:36:451 crore profit.

00:36:46I will do my mathematics

00:36:47and say,

00:36:47oh,

00:36:48but this land

00:36:49that I do,

00:36:50its value is,

00:36:51let's say the value

00:36:51of the land

00:36:52in that 10 crores

00:36:53is 1 crore.

00:36:54This land is going

00:36:54to become

00:36:55from 1 crore

00:36:55to 3 crores.

00:36:56Anyway,

00:36:57why should I make

00:36:58this effort

00:36:59of putting the balance

00:37:009 crores,

00:37:00building the factory

00:37:01and then earning

00:37:021 crore profit

00:37:02by doing nothing?

00:37:04I can just take

00:37:05this 1 crore

00:37:06and make it 3 crores.

00:37:07I have still made

00:37:072 crores.

00:37:08There I will make

00:37:091 crore

00:37:09after all this effort.

00:37:11So let me just sit

00:37:11and do nothing.

00:37:12Take this 2 crore,

00:37:13put it in the bank

00:37:14and wait for this 2 crore

00:37:15to become 4 crore.

00:37:16Now,

00:37:17but somebody comes along

00:37:18and says,

00:37:18you put this 9 crore,

00:37:21let's make a factory,

00:37:22we'll put this 10 crores

00:37:23and instead of making

00:37:241 crore,

00:37:24you'll make 5 crores.

00:37:26Right?

00:37:27You know,

00:37:27you know,

00:37:28you maybe,

00:37:28maybe you will

00:37:29get better technology,

00:37:31maybe you'll get AI,

00:37:32maybe you'll become,

00:37:33you know,

00:37:33get some semiconductor chips,

00:37:35new tech company,

00:37:36we'll take this 9

00:37:37and we'll convert

00:37:38this 10 crores,

00:37:39we'll put a 10 crores

00:37:40and we'll start

00:37:41making 5 crores.

00:37:42Then obviously,

00:37:42the man will sit up

00:37:43and say,

00:37:43of course,

00:37:44now instead of

00:37:45making 2 crores

00:37:46doing nothing,

00:37:46I'm making 5 crores

00:37:48worth of money

00:37:49and I'm making

00:37:50this effort,

00:37:51sure,

00:37:51for the balance

00:37:523 crores,

00:37:52I'll make this effort.

00:37:54That is where

00:37:55I think

00:37:56the business

00:37:57needs to be goaded,

00:37:58where companies

00:37:59need to engage

00:38:00and I think

00:38:01if government

00:38:01has ideas

00:38:02and it has,

00:38:02I think it needs

00:38:03to engage

00:38:04with the corporate sector

00:38:05and actually

00:38:06incentivize them

00:38:07to do this.

00:38:08Otherwise,

00:38:09otherwise,

00:38:09the corporate sector

00:38:10on its own,

00:38:11unless there is

00:38:12a national problem,

00:38:13unless there is

00:38:13some problem

00:38:14like which we said

00:38:15like a COVID

00:38:15has happened

00:38:16or a natural

00:38:16calamity has happened,

00:38:18every day there is

00:38:18nothing to be done

00:38:19as such for the country.

00:38:20Country is moving along.

00:38:21Right?

00:38:22So,

00:38:23we perhaps need

00:38:24a national calamity

00:38:25for people to come.

00:38:26No,

00:38:26I think quite the opposite.

00:38:27We don't need

00:38:27a national calamity.

00:38:28I think we need to,

00:38:29we have to avoid

00:38:31national calamities.

00:38:32What we have to do

00:38:32is that without

00:38:33a calamity happening,

00:38:34right,

00:38:35we have to tell

00:38:36our corporate sector.

00:38:37But it's the same thing,

00:38:38you know,

00:38:38that Indians may be

00:38:39fighting on the basis

00:38:40of caste and religion

00:38:40in India,

00:38:41but when they go abroad,

00:38:42they just,

00:38:43you know,

00:38:44they are each other's

00:38:44best friends.

00:38:45Then that's the only place

00:38:47where they call themselves

00:38:47Indians.

00:38:48Otherwise,

00:38:48As you said,

00:38:49that's in a negative sense

00:38:51is a problem

00:38:52and therefore you come

00:38:53together to solve it.

00:38:54But let us see,

00:38:55can we flip it

00:38:56in the positive side?

00:38:57That is,

00:38:57I said that

00:38:58even during

00:38:59the independence movement,

00:39:01they felt that

00:39:02there was a vision

00:39:03of an independent India

00:39:04which was better

00:39:05than the current

00:39:05of what was going on.

00:39:08After all,

00:39:08British were anyway

00:39:09governing India.

00:39:10We were getting,

00:39:11we were used to

00:39:11colonization for

00:39:12200 years.

00:39:13We could have

00:39:13continued like that

00:39:14for another 100 years.

00:39:16But then people

00:39:16started thinking that,

00:39:17oh,

00:39:18Gandhiji's vision

00:39:19of an independent India

00:39:20where we will be able

00:39:21to take control

00:39:22of our destiny,

00:39:22where we will be able

00:39:23to make our choices

00:39:24is better,

00:39:25a better world

00:39:26than the world

00:39:27we live in today.

00:39:28Let's go towards

00:39:29that world.

00:39:29Okay,

00:39:29then let us invest

00:39:30for that.

00:39:31See,

00:39:31humans invest

00:39:32in hope.

00:39:33when we believe

00:39:35that the world

00:39:36of tomorrow

00:39:36will be better.

00:39:37If we didn't have hope,

00:39:38we'd never have families,

00:39:39we'd never have children.

00:39:40We want to believe

00:39:42that the world

00:39:42of tomorrow

00:39:43will be the world

00:39:44better than the world

00:39:44of today.

00:39:45Point I'm trying

00:39:46to make is that

00:39:47world of tomorrow

00:39:48at 6.5%

00:39:49is not good enough

00:39:52for India.

00:39:54India of 8.5%,

00:39:55India of 9%

00:39:56requires India

00:39:57to make the

00:39:58incremental effort

00:39:59of between

00:40:006.5% to 9%.

00:40:026.5%

00:40:03is happening.

00:40:04Let's not become

00:40:04lazy country

00:40:05and say

00:40:056.5%

00:40:06is happening.

00:40:07What do we need to do

00:40:07something to do?

00:40:08We're going to be all

00:40:08of them.

00:40:10The rest of 3%

00:40:11because when we do

00:40:12that 9%,

00:40:13as you said,

00:40:14we have to make

00:40:16that 3.5%

00:40:17or 3%

00:40:18or 9-4%

00:40:19whatever is

00:40:20the incremental effort

00:40:20worth it for India

00:40:22because that leads

00:40:22to a better India.

00:40:23That means

00:40:24not just me

00:40:24but other millions

00:40:26of Indians

00:40:26who are not

00:40:27that privileged

00:40:27will also rise

00:40:28on the basis

00:40:29of that.

00:40:29So I think

00:40:30the challenge

00:40:31now is to give

00:40:31the corporate sector

00:40:32that imbiding vision

00:40:35which says

00:40:35that next 25 years

00:40:37as we hit

00:40:37100 years

00:40:38of independence

00:40:38we actually

00:40:40create an India

00:40:41which is

00:40:42really an India

00:40:43of prosperity

00:40:43and

00:40:44free financial

00:40:46independence

00:40:47for all our citizens

00:40:48and the only people

00:40:49who can deliver this

00:40:50is our businesses

00:40:51and our companies.

00:40:52No politician,

00:40:53no government

00:40:54can deliver this.

00:40:55So our biggest

00:40:56challenge now

00:40:57is how to make

00:40:59them believe

00:41:00that this is

00:41:01the big vision

00:41:02and I promise you

00:41:03for whatever I have

00:41:04seen in my own

00:41:0525 years of experience

00:41:06if you are able

00:41:07to convince

00:41:08the Indian

00:41:08corporate sector

00:41:09if you are able

00:41:09to convince

00:41:10the ordinary

00:41:10businessman

00:41:11that this is

00:41:13the vision

00:41:14that he wants

00:41:14to work for

00:41:15and this is

00:41:15the vision

00:41:16they are

00:41:17equal patriots

00:41:18than everybody

00:41:19else in this country

00:41:19they will

00:41:20automatically do it.

00:41:21You just have

00:41:22to bring out

00:41:22this behavior

00:41:23in them

00:41:23by positive

00:41:25strokes

00:41:26rather than

00:41:27bringing out

00:41:27the negative

00:41:28behavior

00:41:28that you did

00:41:29for the last

00:41:3075 years

00:41:30which was said

00:41:31making money

00:41:32in these countries

00:41:32by avoiding taxes

00:41:33or bribing

00:41:35the politicians

00:41:35or the bureaucrat

00:41:36to get some license.

00:41:37So I think

00:41:38that's a paradigm

00:41:39shift that we need.

00:41:40Mr. Doval

00:41:41if we just see

00:41:41for the last

00:41:42many years

00:41:42now a lot

00:41:43of businesses

00:41:44they are using

00:41:45nationalist

00:41:45or the nation

00:41:46making everything

00:41:47these kind of

00:41:48statements

00:41:48in their press

00:41:48leads also

00:41:49but at the end

00:41:50of the day

00:41:51that does not

00:41:52often get

00:41:53reflected in

00:41:54the kind of

00:41:55practices

00:41:55that they have

00:41:56done.

00:41:56and also

00:41:57like the

00:41:59kind of

00:41:59investments

00:41:59that they

00:42:00have made

00:42:01and this

00:42:02is what

00:42:02is getting

00:42:02reflected

00:42:03in economic

00:42:03survey

00:42:04when you

00:42:05know the

00:42:05government

00:42:05economic

00:42:06advisor is

00:42:07forced to

00:42:07say that

00:42:08boss

00:42:08please

00:42:08invest

00:42:09India

00:42:09may

00:42:09invest

00:42:10in fact

00:42:10in the

00:42:11latest

00:42:11economic

00:42:11survey

00:42:12the CA

00:42:13raised the

00:42:14question of

00:42:15maybe getting

00:42:16forced to

00:42:16implement the

00:42:17AI robotax

00:42:18basically

00:42:19because if

00:42:19the profits

00:42:20of the

00:42:21companies

00:42:21get disproportionately

00:42:22high

00:42:23compared to

00:42:24the number

00:42:24of jobs

00:42:24that they

00:42:25create

00:42:25then the

00:42:25government

00:42:26might be

00:42:26forced to

00:42:26just introduce

00:42:27that kind

00:42:27of tax

00:42:28and the

00:42:28job of

00:42:29redistribution

00:42:30of wealth

00:42:30will once

00:42:31again come

00:42:31back to

00:42:31government

00:42:32that should

00:42:33be.

00:42:33I completely

00:42:34agree with

00:42:35you.

00:42:35But

00:42:35government

00:42:36is taking

00:42:40more and

00:42:40more bets

00:42:41on trying to

00:42:41stimulate this.

00:42:42so I

00:42:42can see the

00:42:43point that

00:42:44government

00:42:44has not

00:42:45been able

00:42:45to stimulate

00:42:46this to

00:42:47the extent

00:42:48it should

00:42:48have been

00:42:49able to

00:42:49but government

00:42:49is trying

00:42:50so now

00:42:50with this

00:42:51budget

00:42:51again they

00:42:52have done

00:42:52they have

00:42:52tried to

00:42:53give more

00:42:53disposable

00:42:54income to

00:42:54the middle

00:42:55class

00:42:55same let

00:42:56middle class

00:42:56spend

00:42:56if middle

00:42:57class

00:42:57spend they

00:42:58will create

00:42:58demand for

00:42:59products

00:42:59that will

00:43:00force the

00:43:00companies to

00:43:01actually start

00:43:01seeing that

00:43:02yes this

00:43:02demand is worth

00:43:03it let us

00:43:04invest because

00:43:05we have to

00:43:05capture this

00:43:06demand

00:43:06there is demand

00:43:07there is more

00:43:08income people are

00:43:08demanding more

00:43:09things so the

00:43:10government is

00:43:10trying to make

00:43:11this stimulation

00:43:13happen to the

00:43:15private sector

00:43:16from different

00:43:16angles but

00:43:17ultimately the

00:43:18private sector

00:43:18must get

00:43:19stimulated and

00:43:20it must get

00:43:20onto its auto

00:43:21mode of seeing

00:43:22the holy grail

00:43:23of saying I

00:43:24invest I get

00:43:25more profits

00:43:25and I reinvest

00:43:26more so I

00:43:26think that I

00:43:27would not say

00:43:28that the private

00:43:29sector is

00:43:29completely not

00:43:30doing it it's

00:43:30doing it in

00:43:31bits and pieces

00:43:31right it's

00:43:32doing it in

00:43:33some sectors

00:43:33like tech etc

00:43:35where the

00:43:36benefits are

00:43:36proportionately more

00:43:37that's why you

00:43:38have so many

00:43:38startups coming

00:43:39that's why you

00:43:39have so many

00:43:40people from

00:43:41you know leaving

00:43:41jobs and trying

00:43:42to start because

00:43:43they believe that

00:43:44the benefits are

00:43:45worth the effort

00:43:46that's what I

00:43:47said in terms of

00:43:48free markets in

00:43:49terms of in

00:43:50terms of in

00:43:50terms of free

00:43:51choices the

00:43:52ability of the

00:43:54policy planner is

00:43:55to create the

00:43:56conditions that

00:43:57lead to

00:43:58individual behavior

00:43:59incentives to do

00:44:01it as against

00:44:02trying to always

00:44:04go to them on

00:44:05some very large

00:44:06idealistic purpose

00:44:07idealistic purpose

00:44:08should be there

00:44:09in the back of

00:44:10the mind in

00:44:11terms of how

00:44:12you devise the

00:44:13policies but

00:44:13the policies must

00:44:15be in such a

00:44:15way that they

00:44:16actually become

00:44:17self-sustaining

00:44:18and actually

00:44:21business friendly

00:44:22for people to

00:44:23evoke that kind

00:44:24of behavior in

00:44:25them so I think

00:44:27that's the kind

00:44:28of bridge that

00:44:29the government

00:44:29but listen we

00:44:30must give all

00:44:31due credit to

00:44:32this government

00:44:32last 10 years

00:44:33first at least

00:44:34they identified

00:44:35the problem

00:44:36who were the

00:44:37people who

00:44:38allowed this

00:44:39manufacturing to

00:44:39slip from 25% to

00:44:4115% what were

00:44:42they doing under

00:44:43their watch when

00:44:44it fell from 25% to

00:44:4515% all through

00:44:47the 90s and

00:44:48through the

00:44:482000s what were

00:44:50they doing how

00:44:51could they let

00:44:52such a colossal

00:44:53problem happen

00:44:54that we thought

00:44:55our service sector

00:44:56will solve all our

00:44:57problems let

00:44:57manufacturing fall

00:44:58right now we

00:44:59have to claw back

00:45:00from 15% to 25%

00:45:02that's a huge

00:45:03task but look

00:45:04at in the last

00:45:0410 years relentless

00:45:05pursuit even though

00:45:07it may not be

00:45:08successful they are

00:45:09trying

00:45:09every year cut down

00:45:12the list of what

00:45:13you are doing in

00:45:13terms of defense

00:45:14production

00:45:14make in India

00:45:15start up India

00:45:17just trying to

00:45:20tell the corporate

00:45:20sector that you

00:45:22know we have to

00:45:23we have to start

00:45:24making things again

00:45:25and we are

00:45:273 trillion if we

00:45:28lose this message

00:45:28look at United

00:45:29States what is now

00:45:30Trump saying make

00:45:31America great again

00:45:32he has realized

00:45:33at 24 trillion

00:45:34GDP that boss

00:45:36we have already

00:45:36wronged

00:45:37we have to

00:45:37manufacturing slip

00:45:38we have to

00:45:39think that we

00:45:40will be sitting

00:45:40in our way

00:45:40the world will

00:45:41make us and we

00:45:42eat

00:45:42he is now

00:45:43reverse reverse

00:45:44he is winning

00:45:45this thing

00:45:45because they

00:45:45realized their

00:45:46mistake

00:45:46and so you

00:45:48know there is

00:45:49no way out of it

00:45:50just like in life

00:45:51there is no way

00:45:52if you have to

00:45:52pass class 12

00:45:52exam then you

00:45:54will not have to

00:45:54work there is

00:45:55no way out of

00:45:56hard work

00:45:56cheating beating

00:45:57do you know

00:45:59it may be a bit

00:45:59different than

00:46:00he will not

00:46:00let's get to

00:46:03the job and

00:46:03start

00:46:04so I think

00:46:05I think the

00:46:06problem is clear

00:46:07we are we

00:46:08have to move

00:46:09our manufacturing

00:46:09to 25%

00:46:10we have to get

00:46:11the animal

00:46:12spirits of our

00:46:13private sector

00:46:14back in and

00:46:15we have to get

00:46:15the private sector

00:46:16to believe that

00:46:17it is worth

00:46:19economically worth

00:46:20it for them to

00:46:22keep investing

00:46:23and growing

00:46:24acquiring new

00:46:25technologies

00:46:25innovating

00:46:26creating new

00:46:27businesses and

00:46:28investing in the

00:46:29productive capacity

00:46:29of the country

00:46:30and I think

00:46:32once we get

00:46:33that once we

00:46:33get the engine

00:46:34sort of moving

00:46:35then I think

00:46:37India will on

00:46:37itself move

00:46:38automatically from

00:46:40you know to

00:46:41sort of an

00:46:4189% GDP growth

00:46:42rate and we'll

00:46:43see the benefits

00:46:45of this

00:46:45since you

00:46:46mentioned Donald

00:46:47Trump in the

00:46:47last answer

00:46:48Donald Trump

00:46:50openly backs

00:46:51certain businesses

00:46:53be it

00:46:53Elon Musk and

00:46:54its other

00:46:55companies China

00:46:57has openly

00:46:57backed its

00:46:58Huawei and

00:46:58other companies

00:46:59do you think

00:47:00in the case of

00:47:01India we can

00:47:01Indian government

00:47:02can be seen as

00:47:03backing certain

00:47:04businesses to

00:47:04conquer the

00:47:05world because

00:47:06in post-Trump

00:47:07era when

00:47:08multilateral

00:47:09institutions are

00:47:10just you know

00:47:11losing their

00:47:12relevance and

00:47:13now the world

00:47:14is actually

00:47:14deglobalizing

00:47:15and what matters

00:47:17is just

00:47:17individual deals

00:47:18between nations

00:47:18do you think

00:47:19Indian government

00:47:20will actually be

00:47:21in a position

00:47:22where they choose

00:47:23certain businesses

00:47:24and then they can

00:47:25promote their

00:47:25interests and

00:47:26say that these

00:47:27are the national

00:47:27interests these

00:47:28are the businesses

00:47:29that will protect

00:47:29India's interests

00:47:30abroad and that's

00:47:31why we need to

00:47:31back them

00:47:32yeah and for

00:47:33at this point in

00:47:35time I don't

00:47:35think we are

00:47:35there yet given

00:47:36the kind of

00:47:37political environment

00:47:38in this country

00:47:39and mudslinging

00:47:40and you know

00:47:41we would rather

00:47:41the minute a

00:47:42government says

00:47:43we want to

00:47:43support this

00:47:43business people

00:47:44will say oh

00:47:45there is some

00:47:46hanky-panky

00:47:47going on between

00:47:47that business and

00:47:48the government so

00:47:49that unfortunately

00:47:49is not the

00:47:50mahal in the

00:47:51country as a

00:47:53result of which

00:47:53Indian businesses

00:47:54or Indian

00:47:54opportunities may

00:47:55get may get

00:47:57taken away because

00:47:58your competitor

00:47:59your adversary is

00:47:59not looking at it

00:48:00like this if there

00:48:01is an opportunity

00:48:02that comes in

00:48:02next country the

00:48:03Chinese government

00:48:04will support a

00:48:05Chinese companies

00:48:05you will not

00:48:06support your

00:48:06company your

00:48:07company will lose

00:48:08it ultimately

00:48:08India loses it

00:48:09China gets that

00:48:10business and China

00:48:11gets that whether

00:48:12it's a natural

00:48:12resource whether it's

00:48:13a it's a new

00:48:14market so the

00:48:15reality of this is

00:48:16a self-inflicted

00:48:17goal but it is it

00:48:19is what it is I

00:48:20mean I will not

00:48:20argue this is this

00:48:21is the situation

00:48:22in the country

00:48:22today at best

00:48:24government can do

00:48:26is to support its

00:48:26public sector

00:48:27undertakings if they

00:48:28do it but then

00:48:29they may not have

00:48:29the capability or

00:48:30the capacity to

00:48:31take care of that

00:48:32market opportunity

00:48:33so there is in the

00:48:34past but nothing

00:48:35happened nothing

00:48:35happened because

00:48:36they can't do it

00:48:36they can't operate

00:48:37that you know

00:48:38they are not

00:48:38designed for that

00:48:39purpose right

00:48:40they are there so

00:48:41this is this is

00:48:42definitely and

00:48:43genuinely a problem

00:48:44I think we should

00:48:45move to a situation

00:48:46where in the future

00:48:47the government is

00:48:48able to support

00:48:49Indian businesses

00:48:49in achieving its

00:48:50strategic needs

00:48:51I am not saying

00:48:52government should be

00:48:52supporting every

00:48:53business every time

00:48:54for what is useful

00:48:56for for the

00:48:57business that's what

00:48:58the business to do

00:48:59right government is

00:49:00not in the business

00:49:01of supporting one

00:49:02group or the other

00:49:02but where India's

00:49:03national interests are

00:49:04concerned where

00:49:05India's strategic

00:49:06interests are concerned

00:49:06government has to

00:49:08make a choice and

00:49:09maybe a case by

00:49:09cases that is it

00:49:11better that that

00:49:12opportunity is lost

00:49:13to some adversary

00:49:14just because we

00:49:15can't support a

00:49:16private business in

00:49:17India or we go

00:49:18ahead and support the

00:49:19private business

00:49:19in India because

00:49:20ultimately even

00:49:21though it may

00:49:22benefit the private

00:49:22guy disproportionately

00:49:23the benefit is

00:49:24coming to an

00:49:25Indian for

00:49:25starting he's an

00:49:26Indian you can

00:49:27tax him more

00:49:27then he creates

00:49:28more jobs he

00:49:29brings more capital

00:49:30the country benefits

00:49:31and South Korea

00:49:33had the same

00:49:34model they

00:49:35supported certain

00:49:36companies and

00:49:37then they conquered

00:49:37the world

00:49:38exactly exactly

00:49:39exactly and

00:49:41countries are doing

00:49:42and I think

00:49:42countries will do

00:49:43more of that

00:49:44in the future

00:49:45as we raise

00:49:46these trade

00:49:48barriers and

00:49:48you know make

00:49:49it more difficult

00:49:50for globalization

00:49:51so I think

00:49:52India will have

00:49:53to come to

00:49:54that also

00:49:54situation but

00:49:55for that I

00:49:55think the

00:49:56political debate

00:49:57has to become

00:49:57much more

00:49:58informed in the

00:49:58country because

00:50:00if you are going

00:50:00to continue to

00:50:01kind do the

00:50:02kind of mud

00:50:02slinging that

00:50:03we do and

00:50:04try to ascribe

00:50:04you know

00:50:05malified interest

00:50:08every time you

00:50:08support some

00:50:09businesses then

00:50:10the government

00:50:10will always

00:50:11maintain an

00:50:11equidistant from

00:50:12business and

00:50:13say you know

00:50:13we can do

00:50:13nothing because

00:50:14the cost of

00:50:15in a democracy

00:50:16of aligning

00:50:17with somebody

00:50:17is so high

00:50:18that you just

00:50:19say that you

00:50:20know let the

00:50:20country and the

00:50:22business suffer

00:50:22but you know

00:50:23at least I

00:50:24don't have to

00:50:25pay a political

00:50:26price for it

00:50:26do you think

00:50:27that India

00:50:28would ever be

00:50:29able to have

00:50:30a businessman

00:50:31as its prime

00:50:32minister just

00:50:32the way Donald

00:50:33Trump is

00:50:33I hope someday

00:50:34I really hope

00:50:36someday

00:50:36personally I

00:50:37believe that

00:50:37you know

00:50:38businessmen create

00:50:39jobs they create

00:50:40wealth they create

00:50:41prosperity and

00:50:42every Indian

00:50:43wants to move

00:50:45up in life for

00:50:46themselves and

00:50:46their families

00:50:47they want a

00:50:48better life for

00:50:48themselves there

00:50:50is business is

00:50:50very good and

00:50:52noble only

00:50:53problem is that

00:50:54if it is done

00:50:55in a legitimate

00:50:56way it is done

00:50:58in a in an

00:50:59open way and

00:51:00it is done with

00:51:01with you

00:51:02adhering to the

00:51:02rules of law

00:51:03that is which

00:51:05starts from saying

00:51:05you follow the

00:51:06rules you pay your

00:51:07taxes you be a

00:51:08good corporate

00:51:09citizen and then

00:51:10whatever wealth

00:51:10you create you

00:51:11enjoy it you can

00:51:12buy the best

00:51:13houses you can

00:51:13buy the best

00:51:14cars you can

00:51:15buy and you

00:51:15become role

00:51:16models for

00:51:16society there

00:51:17is that people

00:51:18look up to it

00:51:19and say if they

00:51:20can do it we

00:51:21can do it but

00:51:22that should not

00:51:22come out from

00:51:23the fact that oh

00:51:24they can do it

00:51:25because they knew

00:51:25somebody India

00:51:27will progress

00:51:28when what we

00:51:29know is more

00:51:30important than

00:51:31who we know

00:51:32we know what

00:51:33we know for

00:51:34that we get

00:51:35money for

00:51:36who we know

00:51:37we don't have

00:51:38value for

00:51:39if we

00:51:40make this

00:51:41business

00:51:41where what

00:51:42we know

00:51:42I make a good

00:51:42product

00:51:43I make a good

00:51:44company

00:51:44you are

00:51:45looking at it

00:51:45it's happening

00:51:46now you can see

00:51:47in 75 years

00:51:48we made

00:51:48how many billion

00:51:49dollar companies

00:51:49have been

00:51:50there were some

00:51:52companies

00:51:52they had all

00:51:53contracts

00:51:53they had all

00:51:54foreign delegations

00:51:56India has always

00:51:58been a contract

00:51:58driven economy

00:51:59contract

00:52:00no it's not

00:52:01I'm telling you

00:52:02you can see

00:52:02120 unicorns

00:52:04who didn't

00:52:05have a contract

00:52:06there are 120

00:52:08billionaires that

00:52:09have come and

00:52:10made you know

00:52:11dollar billionaires

00:52:12these people are

00:52:12not asking for

00:52:13any contract

00:52:14the government

00:52:14is after them

00:52:15they are not

00:52:15coming to the

00:52:16government

00:52:16they don't need

00:52:17anything from

00:52:18the state

00:52:18actually if you

00:52:19torture them

00:52:20they will pick up

00:52:21their business

00:52:21and they will go

00:52:22somewhere else

00:52:22right

00:52:23we are losing

00:52:24all our talent

00:52:25today the state

00:52:26is after them

00:52:26saying please

00:52:27you are here

00:52:27that is what

00:52:29we want

00:52:30now if that

00:52:31businessman

00:52:31buys a big

00:52:32house or

00:52:33buys a big

00:52:33car or

00:52:34enjoys as well

00:52:35so be it

00:52:35it's very good

00:52:36he's a role

00:52:37and if he comes

00:52:37from a lower

00:52:38middle class

00:52:38or a small

00:52:39village

00:52:39then 10 other

00:52:40people look at

00:52:41him and say

00:52:41if he can do

00:52:42this

00:52:43who doesn't

00:52:43know

00:52:43that he doesn't

00:52:44have a contract

00:52:45or not

00:52:45have a benefit

00:52:46he has worked

00:52:47a good product

00:52:48made a good

00:52:49marketing

00:52:49and I can do

00:52:51it

00:52:51and he can say

00:52:52I give my tax

00:52:53I do

00:52:53everything

00:52:54legitimately

00:52:55and I have

00:52:55all the books

00:52:56open

00:52:56why don't I

00:52:57exhibit my wealth

00:52:57and enjoy

00:53:00it

00:53:00he will

00:53:01hide

00:53:01who has

00:53:01done it

00:53:02then we are

00:53:05creating a

00:53:06virtuous model

00:53:07people doing it

00:53:08are also

00:53:09legitimate

00:53:10people looking at

00:53:11it are also

00:53:11motivated

00:53:12that is the

00:53:13kind of business

00:53:14environment I think

00:53:15we should be heading

00:53:15towards and that's

00:53:16the kind of business

00:53:17environment we should

00:53:18be and then out of

00:53:19that if somebody

00:53:19becomes the prime

00:53:20minister and becomes

00:53:21the leadership of

00:53:21the country of

00:53:22course this

00:53:23country belongs

00:53:23to them also

00:53:24coming to this

00:53:25point like in the

00:53:26past it's not

00:53:26that Indian

00:53:27businessmen have

00:53:28not tried to

00:53:29enter politics

00:53:29but history

00:53:31suggests that

00:53:31whoever tried to

00:53:32enter politics

00:53:32within few

00:53:33years their

00:53:34business went

00:53:34down the drain

00:53:35because some

00:53:36other party

00:53:36came into

00:53:37power and

00:53:37they just

00:53:38thought

00:53:38because with

00:53:39all due

00:53:39respect if

00:53:40you look at

00:53:41dualist their

00:53:41businesses were

00:53:42also supported

00:53:43by their

00:53:45political affiliations

00:53:46so when there

00:53:46are people with

00:53:47different political

00:53:47affiliations came

00:53:48they took away

00:53:49their businesses

00:53:49so you know

00:53:51because the kind

00:53:52of money you

00:53:53needed to get

00:53:53into politics

00:53:54would only happen

00:53:55when you did

00:53:56so you know

00:53:56there was a

00:53:57very nefarious

00:53:57link between

00:53:58business and

00:53:58politics that

00:53:59is what I'm

00:54:00saying the

00:54:00very unholy

00:54:01kind of

00:54:02environment

00:54:04between the

00:54:04two so

00:54:05those who got

00:54:06also got it

00:54:07because of

00:54:08politics the

00:54:08business then

00:54:09the new

00:54:09politics came

00:54:10the new party

00:54:12came they took

00:54:13away their

00:54:13business but

00:54:14when it's

00:54:14legitimate when

00:54:16it is proper

00:54:16then what

00:54:17if you have

00:54:20a good

00:54:20product nobody

00:54:21can take it

00:54:22away from

00:54:22you so I

00:54:24don't think

00:54:24that I don't

00:54:25think that you

00:54:26know business

00:54:26businessmen cannot

00:54:28be politicians

00:54:28businessmen should

00:54:30be politicians

00:54:31businessmen should

00:54:32take a stake in

00:54:32this country's

00:54:33politics and

00:54:34I think

00:54:35over time as

00:54:37more legitimate

00:54:38businessmen come

00:54:38out and more

00:54:40you know this

00:54:41nefarious link

00:54:43between the

00:54:43state and

00:54:44business is

00:54:44broken then

00:54:45more and more

00:54:46businessmen I

00:54:46think will

00:54:47enter politics

00:54:48do you

00:54:48think that

00:54:49various Indian

00:54:50political parties

00:54:51need to come

00:54:52to a table

00:54:53where they

00:54:54discuss that

00:54:54you know this

00:54:54is what is

00:54:55required for

00:54:55India to go

00:54:56forward we

00:54:57are a capitalist

00:54:58country now no

00:54:59more socialist

00:55:00dilemmas and

00:55:01we need to

00:55:02promote businesses

00:55:02and let's

00:55:03create a system

00:55:04where we

00:55:05promote legitimate

00:55:06businesses without

00:55:07forcing them to

00:55:08pay you bribe

00:55:09because ultimately

00:55:10then you know

00:55:11they will have to

00:55:12recover that bribe

00:55:13through those

00:55:14kind of deals

00:55:15there needs to

00:55:16be a nomorata

00:55:16code that

00:55:17okay all

00:55:17politicians

00:55:18they come

00:55:19together all

00:55:20businesses will

00:55:20support in their

00:55:21own way like

00:55:22all political

00:55:22parties will

00:55:23not be seen

00:55:23as you know

00:55:24the loony of

00:55:25one political

00:55:26party but

00:55:26then the

00:55:26politicians also

00:55:27need to

00:55:28ensure that

00:55:29you know they

00:55:29do not trouble

00:55:30those businesses

00:55:30which are trying

00:55:31to do something

00:55:31for the country

00:55:32yeah so I

00:55:33think for that

00:55:33we need the

00:55:34kind so the

00:55:34answer is yes

00:55:35it should happen

00:55:36the answer is

00:55:37can it happen

00:55:37because you

00:55:38know I don't

00:55:39see the kind

00:55:40of political

00:55:40leadership across

00:55:41the country today

00:55:42which is capable

00:55:43of engaging

00:55:44in this kind

00:55:45of dialogue

00:55:45unfortunately

00:55:46you know with

00:55:46all due respect

00:55:47and god bless

00:55:48him

00:55:48Arun Jaitliji

00:55:49bought out

00:55:49these corporate

00:55:50bonds you know

00:55:50electoral bonds

00:55:51they were not

00:55:52the most perfect

00:55:53way but there

00:55:53was an attempt

00:55:54to try and

00:55:55bring more

00:55:55legitimacy into

00:55:56how political

00:55:57parties are

00:55:57funded right

00:55:58now good or

00:55:59bad we finish

00:56:00them without

00:56:01putting a

00:56:01solution in

00:56:02place every

00:56:03time government

00:56:04tries to do

00:56:05and support

00:56:05businesses

00:56:06somebody will

00:56:07shout and say

00:56:08oh suit

00:56:08bootki

00:56:09sarkar and

00:56:10then again

00:56:10people will be

00:56:11wary of

00:56:13supporting

00:56:13businesses

00:56:14so we

00:56:15don't have

00:56:15that kind

00:56:16today the

00:56:17opposition in

00:56:17this country

00:56:18as a matter

00:56:18of fact again

00:56:19despite the

00:56:20constraints of

00:56:21the political

00:56:21leadership

00:56:22political

00:56:23environment in

00:56:23this country

00:56:24I must give

00:56:24it to this

00:56:25prime minister

00:56:25Mr. Modi

00:56:27in the last

00:56:2710 years has

00:56:28gone out on

00:56:29the limp

00:56:29to try and

00:56:31support businesses

00:56:31he is the

00:56:32one who has

00:56:32created these

00:56:33startup Indias

00:56:34and these

00:56:35unicorns and

00:56:35these young

00:56:36people and

00:56:36try to motivate

00:56:37them right

00:56:38and even support

00:56:39businesses in

00:56:40trying to achieve

00:56:41constantly telling

00:56:42them you are

00:56:42the people the

00:56:43job creators

00:56:43you are the

00:56:44people who

00:56:44must step

00:56:45up take

00:56:45risk right

00:56:46and he has

00:56:48paid a

00:56:48political cost

00:56:49had it not

00:56:49been for his

00:56:50popularity the

00:56:51BJP would have

00:56:52paid a far

00:56:53more political

00:56:54cost for this

00:56:55but he is an

00:56:55exception I

00:56:56don't think that

00:56:57across the

00:56:58political spectrum

00:56:59we are seeing

00:56:59today leadership

00:57:00I wish the

00:57:03leadership in

00:57:03the various

00:57:04states and

00:57:05even at the

00:57:05national level

00:57:06would actually

00:57:07have an honest

00:57:08debate about

00:57:09this I mean

00:57:10I hear the

00:57:11narrative of

00:57:11Mr. Rahul

00:57:12Gandhi all

00:57:12the time he

00:57:13is constantly

00:57:13abusing

00:57:14businessmen

00:57:14every problem

00:57:15in this

00:57:15country he

00:57:16thinks every

00:57:17second problem

00:57:18in the country

00:57:19he thinks it's

00:57:20a businessman

00:57:20who is in

00:57:21hand in glove

00:57:22with the

00:57:22government and

00:57:23therefore is

00:57:24benefiting so I

00:57:24mean how can

00:57:25you have a

00:57:25debate if you

00:57:26have that lens

00:57:26on if they

00:57:28are crooks then

00:57:28you know you

00:57:29are just waiting

00:57:30to penalize them

00:57:31whenever you get

00:57:31a chance

00:57:32yeah but like

00:57:32as I said

00:57:33that don't you

00:57:34think that time

00:57:34has come when

00:57:35maybe the

00:57:36prime minister reaches

00:57:37out to the

00:57:38opposition openly

00:57:39saying that let's

00:57:40maybe not in

00:57:42the parliament

00:57:42maybe closed

00:57:43door meeting

00:57:43because certain

00:57:43things need to

00:57:44be done closed

00:57:45door that boss

00:57:45this is what

00:57:46India needs

00:57:47let's sort out

00:57:48these differences

00:57:49because you know

00:57:50of course every

00:57:51party wants to

00:57:52come in power

00:57:52and they use

00:57:53certain ways

00:57:53because we need

00:57:55to accept the

00:57:55fact that when

00:57:56congress went out

00:57:57of power they

00:57:57were also you

00:57:58know accused

00:57:59of corruption

00:58:00so maybe they

00:58:00are just being

00:58:01back in the

00:58:02same coin

00:58:02but at some

00:58:03point in time

00:58:04in the interest

00:58:04of India

00:58:05all political

00:58:05parties need to

00:58:06be on the

00:58:06same page

00:58:07with regards

00:58:08to how

00:58:08they want

00:58:09to support

00:58:11Indian

00:58:11businesses

00:58:11especially at

00:58:12a time when

00:58:13every other

00:58:13country

00:58:14developed nation

00:58:15they are

00:58:15supporting their

00:58:15own businesses

00:58:16because otherwise

00:58:17if we keep

00:58:17attacking our

00:58:18own businessmen

00:58:18nothing will

00:58:19work out

00:58:20you are absolutely

00:58:20right I think

00:58:21a political

00:58:22consensus on

00:58:23this must happen

00:58:24political leadership

00:58:25across the

00:58:26political spectrum

00:58:26must sit down

00:58:28and really say

00:58:29that now time

00:58:29has come

00:58:30now is the

00:58:30lap of the

00:58:32next 25 years

00:58:33is about

00:58:33making our

00:58:34businesses

00:58:35strong and

00:58:36supportive in

00:58:36creating

00:58:37prosperity

00:58:37moving back

00:58:38to a 25%

00:58:39manufacturing base

00:58:41becoming the

00:58:42technological hub

00:58:43of the world

00:58:44creating world

00:58:45champions that

00:58:45dominate and

00:58:47world business

00:58:48across you know

00:58:49across the globe

00:58:50and for that

00:58:51this is not

00:58:52an individual

00:58:52effort this is

00:58:53a concerted

00:58:54effort and

00:58:55then and

00:58:56then once

00:58:57you know

00:58:57intention drives

00:58:58a lot of

00:58:59behavior once

00:58:59with that

00:59:00intention happens

00:59:01you will find

00:59:02that even

00:59:02businesses will

00:59:03step up

00:59:04businessmen will

00:59:05change their

00:59:05behavior they

00:59:06will also say

00:59:06yeah okay we

00:59:07can forego some

00:59:08profit but it's

00:59:09national interest

00:59:10we will make

00:59:10more money in

00:59:11the long run

00:59:11yeah for this

00:59:12is for a

00:59:12national cause

00:59:13we will make

00:59:14this we will

00:59:14take this risk

00:59:15we will make

00:59:16this but they

00:59:17must so once

00:59:18because then they

00:59:19feel the comfort

00:59:20they feel that you

00:59:20know nobody is

00:59:22going to this is

00:59:22not just just me

00:59:25versus them it's

00:59:26a it's a combined

00:59:27effort of a country

00:59:28as a whole and

00:59:29then I think once

00:59:30that happens we

00:59:31will we will see

00:59:31behavior change

00:59:32across across

00:59:33all the

00:59:34constituents

00:59:34all right Mr.

00:59:36Doval thank you

00:59:36very much for this

00:59:37thought-provoking

00:59:38discussion we are

00:59:39glad that you came

00:59:40here and we

00:59:40discussed this

00:59:41important issue

00:59:42which is in

00:59:43national interest

00:59:43and we hope that

00:59:45we'll be taking

00:59:46this discussion

00:59:47forward in future

00:59:47as well thank you

00:59:48very much for

00:59:49coming here thank

00:59:49you for having me

00:59:50on your show

00:59:50thank you

00:59:51bye

00:59:53鐘

00:59:54good

00:59:55bye

00:59:56good

00:59:56bye

00:59:57Mondaw

00:59:57country

00:59:58I'm so sorry

00:59:58to have you

00:59:59how to

01:00:00the

01:00:12point

01:00:13I'm doing

01:00:13that

01:00:14I'm so sorry

01:00:15I'm sorry

01:00:16but I'm que

01:00:16you

01:00:17I'm

01:00:18I'm

01:00:18arina

Shaurya Doval on Why Successful Businessmen Are Hated in India | Strategic Minds

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