See the county's leading politicians out on the spot over the roads, as part of our Lancashire County Council election debate ahead of the poll on 1st May.
For a full list of candidates, click here:
https://www.lep.co.uk/news/politics/complete-list-of-candidates-standing-in-lancashire-county-councils-last-ever-local-elections-5067966
For a full list of candidates, click here:
https://www.lep.co.uk/news/politics/complete-list-of-candidates-standing-in-lancashire-county-councils-last-ever-local-elections-5067966
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NewsTranscript
00:00It's potholes and the state of the roads.
00:05Conservatives and Labour have both indicated that potholes are the people's priority.
00:10Can you really look these people in the eye and say that's the most important thing that
00:13Lancashire County Council delivers? Matthew, start with your name.
00:17I think it depends who you're talking to. Clearly, a lot of the services that the County
00:21Council deliver are hugely important to the people that we deliver them to. So if you've
00:28got an elderly relative who needs care, then adult social care is the main thing that will
00:35attract your attention. If you've got a disabled child or a child who needs looking after, then
00:42that service will be the biggest one for you. But we are in a democracy and for most people,
00:50when we go out and speak to them, the issue that attracts the most attention is the crumbling
00:55state of our highways and footpaths. And so, you know, you ask the question, is that really
01:01the most important thing? It isn't for everybody. Of course not. But for many, many of our residents,
01:07it is. Absolutely.
01:09Scott, second question to you on that subject. You've invested tens of millions of pounds
01:15over the next three years. Is that money well spent in straightened times?
01:19I think it's definitely money well spent. And actually, I agree with much of what Matthew
01:22said, it's the most important thing to lots of residents across the county. It's the thing
01:25that most people see every single day when they leave their houses to go to work and when
01:29they come home. So it's of vital importance to residents. That's why we've committed an
01:33extra £45 million over the next three years to our highways budget, which is more than any
01:40other party promised or proposed at the last budget in the meantime. And that's why it is
01:47absolutely a top priority for most residents. I accept that there are, you know, as Matthew
01:51said, if you have children with special educational needs or an elderly relative in care, that's
01:58vitally important to do. And actually, those are the things that take up most of the council's
02:03budget, which leave less for highways. But when you leave your front door in the morning,
02:07your roads and footpaths are the first thing you see. And that's why we've made it such a priority.
02:10We've both hinted there, the funding top chunks that you're probably going to get into about
02:14how much is being invested in the roads. In terms of what each party would do differently
02:21to what is being done already, Gina, what would you say in terms of how things could be improved?
02:26Just to say, thanks. Just to say, first of all, I think the whole issue about why potholes
02:32seem so important is because it's symbolic. It's people go out of their doors, they go, whether
02:37they're cycling, whether they're driving. It's what they see in the public realm. And
02:40it's a little bit like litter. You know, it's like, it reflects on us as a society. I think
02:45it is really important. I supported the Labour amendment at the budget, actually, to increase
02:51the funding for pothole repairs. I think we have to, we've got a huge backlog. And let's
02:57face it, no matter what we're arguing about this evening about who will now invest what,
03:03local government and the county council's budget has been hollowed out over the last
03:09two decades. And so, you know, there's a huge catch up game. And I think most of us were
03:14hoping that Labour would begin to value or demonstrate its value of local government.
03:21And that doesn't seem to have been the case because there hasn't been a great funding settlement
03:25coming to do those basics. And so, you know, people are having to bid for extra money to do
03:31what should be basic maintenance on our highways. It's our assets. What we need to do is look at
03:37innovative solutions, how that work is contracted, and there's always scope for improvement. And I have
03:44been part of the scrutiny committee looking at that. And it's not easy, let's face it.
03:49John, to you, is there a secret formula for pothole fixing that you think, like,
03:54Chagallity Council hasn't alighted at all?
03:56Well, going back to your first question. So, obviously, you want politicians to lead,
04:00but also you want politicians to listen. And if the public rate potholes is the number one issue,
04:04then you probably need to think about whether you're producing a good enough service and not
04:08have the arrogance to believe you're better than it. Just to correct Stephen here, so you can
04:13absolutely look on the budget document yourself. So Labour put forward an extra 12 million over and above
04:18what the Tories put in their budget, and the Lib Dems put an extra 10 million more than what the Tories,
04:22so that is a demonstrable fact. You can go look on the minutes of the budget council and see that.
04:27In terms of potholes, and it is very sometimes easy to make light of it. You know, have a chuckle
04:31at a pothole. My next door neighbour, in a car with her kids, hit a pothole and blew a tyre out.
04:38Now, luckily, she was not hurt, but that was extraordinarily scary and could have led to an accident.
04:43So we shouldn't dismiss this as a minor thing that, and if you're, you know, I drive a car,
04:49if you're on a bicycle or a motorbike, and you have wet weather like this, where you can be sometimes
04:53really difficult to see a pothole, it could end in your death. So this is, whereas it is easy to
04:59trivialise it, we absolutely shouldn't. Plus, it's an absolute symbol of whether we think we're getting
05:04value for money out of the current county council. And for most people, that answer is no.
05:08Stephen, finally to you, is pouring more and more money into potholes really the answer?
05:16Well, I think reform believes in individual freedom and responsibility. And what is more
05:20freedom to be able to drive your car safely to where you want to? Particularly in Lancashire,
05:26which is 85% rural with very poor bus services. Sometimes people are getting one bus a day.
05:33So I was looking through the budget. I spent three days looking at the budget,
05:37because I'm not a county councillor currently. And the highways maintenance backlog is £479 million.
05:45And that consists of carriageways, £160 million. Footways, £40 million. Strip lighting, £14 million.
05:52Bridges, all our bridges unsafe, £175 million. And retaining walls, £90 million.
05:58Now, the budget for this year is £74 million. So what's that? That's not even 20% of the backlog.
06:09But amazingly, the Conservative administration are reducing that by nearly £31 million in the
06:14following year to £43 million, and the same the year after. Now, I think that's an arrogance.
06:23Because people in every survey say that potholes are what they really care about.
06:29And I've seen the inefficiencies of when road repairs are done by Lancashire County Council.
06:34Have you seen a county council employee where there's one working and there's four talking?
06:39Yeah. I've seen it.
06:41I've seen it. So what we need to do, we need to top that back up to the £74 million that was this year for the next two years.
06:49And Council Murphyn has been in touch with the finance team and identified £35 million that can be transferred across.
06:56We only need £30 million of it. So we will reinstate that budget to the £74.5 million for the next three years.
07:03But more importantly, and I have to say this, we have real concerns about the budget. We think there's a hole in the budget.
07:09So we can't fully commit until we bottom that out. Thank you.
07:12Scott, just answer that point about a reduction in funding next year.
07:16You say £45 million over the next three years, added investment at the current budget. How do you square that with what Stephen is saying?
07:23So that £45 million is over and above the base budget that we get from government and the additional money that we've got to get from government this year.
07:32But it's important, there is a backlog and there is also a huge gap between what we get from central government and funding.
07:39And that's under both parties, I have said that. And what we need, it would take £160 million to get our roads up to the condition that we would want them to do.
07:46And we get a guaranteed £34 million from the government. It's simply not enough. So I'm not here to say that our roads are perfect, but we need to do a lot more.
07:54It's gone up this year. There's an extra £12 million this year you've got from the government.
07:56Which was announced by the previous Conservative government. But yes, it has gone up this year. We welcome that, of course we do.
08:00But it's not nearly enough to do all that we would want to do to fix Lancashire's roads.
08:06And I would say to Stephen, Councillor Murphy, as well as Councillor Sorter, who's now a reform councillor, were there at the budget meeting when it was passed.
08:15Why did they not raise these concerns then? They had every opportunity and suddenly they discovered that this budget that they voted for is somehow a disaster.
08:24Just very briefly, while the Conservatives were in power nationally, you talked about needing a minimum £51 million to manage all of the roads to a sustainable level.
08:34It's notable that when Labour took over at number 10, you started talking about needing £160 million to bring all roads up to good condition.
08:42It's a different benchmarking setting depending on who's in power, aren't you?
08:46No, I wouldn't accept that. I think what we're saying is that, you know, there's a difference between maintaining them in a sustainable condition and getting them to the condition that we would like.
08:54To get them to that good condition, we would need £160 million, which so far isn't forthcoming.
09:00Matthew, is that the aim? £160 million to get everything up to good condition?
09:03I think in a perfect world, that would be what we would like to see. Sadly, we don't live in a perfect world.
09:11And there are other challenges that the council faces that I alluded to before, whether that's adult social care,
09:18we're waiting lists for longer than they've ever been, whether it's special educational needs and disabilities,
09:23where we've just had an inspection that identified widespread and systemic failure. All these things need addressing
09:31and no one of any party is in a position to say they'll be able to provide all the money that we need to do everything that we can.
09:39What we need to do is to be clear what our priorities are and what our vision is for Lancashire.
09:44And that's what we've tried to do. We are clear about what we want to achieve. And then we will, when we take control,
09:52we'll adjust the budget and flex it to our vision and our priorities.
09:57What is the difference, just very briefly, between you and the Labour and the Conservatives? Because you set up
10:02the strategy, the 15-year strategy for highways, when you were in office, the Conservatives adhered to it.
10:08You're both signed up to that. How would things be different if Labour had been in power for the last day?
10:13So the TAMP, the Traffic Ascent Management Programme, which we did set up, is a strategy.
10:20Do I keep cutting it out? I'm sorry. Is a strategy and the Conservatives have in the main adhered to it.
10:27But a strategy can be flexed and a strategy can be funded better. But what the TAMP does,
10:33it examines the roads so that the limited funds that are available go to the worst roads first.
10:39Now, that's a real challenge as a local member, never mind as a group leader. As a local member,
10:45I know roads in my patch that I would love to see repaired. And I'm sure every county
10:50councillor can tell you that story. But when engineers measure it and measure it against all
10:55the other roads in Lancashire, there's simply not enough money in the system. And so we've got to do
11:00what we can to make sure that the most money is released for highways that we can. And you know,
11:08the county council is sat on £250 million worth of reserves. A council that might not exist in three
11:14years is sat on £250 million of your money and my money, yet our highways are cumbling. That's the
11:23balance is reserves. John, do you want to come back very briefly?
11:30Yeah, the elephant in the room here, I don't know if my microphone is actually working,
11:34the elephant in the room here is social care. The vast, vast majority of all your taxpayer money
11:39that the county council spends goes on social care. And actually, that's why the general election,
11:44in particular the Lib Dems, because we had a very personal story with our leader, Ed Dave,
11:48in terms of care his entire life. I mean, we will never fix local government finance or the NHS
11:54if we don't sort out social care. And all these other things we're talking about pales in comparison
12:00with the cost of that. And so what was really disappointing is the new Labour government coming
12:05in and kicking the can down the road yet again on dealing with social care. So all these figures
12:11that are being bandied around, none of them will fix the underlying problem that social care is the
12:16biggest spend that all counties have to spend. And until you fix it, you're not going to get any
12:21of these improvements that people are talking about.
12:23Gina, any magic bullet for the roads as you see? As a Green Party member, do you see increased
12:30investment is even necessary in the roads or are you content with?
12:33No, absolutely increased investment is necessary, but there is no magic bullet. I mean, it's interesting
12:38to hear Stephen sort of mock the contractors that are undertaking the work, but that is when it's
12:43contracted out to the private sector. So there could be a case for bringing much of the work
12:50is contracted out. So, I mean, there's no magic bullet, but we have to look at innovative solutions.
12:56I mean, there are new technologies and new ways of fixing the potholes coming out all the time. So,
13:02you know, we have to be willing to try that. But I think John makes a really good point there that
13:06this is just a time, you know, this is just one of the areas that is really facing pressure and adult
13:15social care is the biggest one. And it just seems astonishing that this Labour government has decided
13:22to foist local government reorganisation on us, when actually the real problem here is adult social
13:32care, it's relationship with the NHS. So health and care together need, you know, need to be
13:38looked at together so that we can help people get out of hospital quicker, that we can keep people in
13:43their homes for longer. And I just feel as though they've, that they're focusing on the wrong thing.
13:48Why they decided to look at local government reorganisation, I know I'm going to come onto that, Paul,
13:52when actually the key thing that's affecting all upper tier authorities and unitary authorities
13:59is the ever increasing demand for social care. And, you know, just to point out what it's already
14:04been said, potholes are the things that we all see every day. Adult social care, when you need it,
14:10you really need it, but it doesn't affect everybody every day. But, you know, we are the
14:15authority responsible for ensuring good quality care that responds to people's needs. And that is so
14:22important because, you know, that you can't cut costs, so you shouldn't be cutting costs on that. It has to be
14:27care driven, not profit driven. Stephen, just finally on this subject to you, you mentioned
14:34the money. Is the money the most important thing from your perspective? Is it all about the level of
14:38investment? Well, I think it's twofold. It's money and productivity. We know that productivity is
14:45fallen in the public sector. And productivity is very poor in this country compared to other comparators.
14:51I think we can do incredible things with productivity. At the reform launch of the
14:58local government campaign, Nigel Farage came in on the JCB Pothole Pro, which is a machine that cuts down
15:06to minutes the preparation before the tarmacking. We need to get clever, we need to work harder, we need to
15:13deliver more, and we need to spend more. We tried the GCB Pothole Pro and Landyshire, and it wasn't
15:25effective. We do use an object either. We do use an object either. A bit of tarmac in the hole.
15:33Well, they probably exhausted the Pothole subject.
15:37So we don't have to go in the line.