WRIF Virtual Rock Room with Triumph's Rik Emmett
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00:00Rock, metal, prog, and everything in between.
00:04If you're into rock, you've come to the right place.
00:07Welcome to this episode of Talkin' Rock with Meltdown.
00:11Don't forget to follow the audio-only Talkin' Rock podcast on all podcast platforms.
00:15And now, it's time for today's conversation.
00:18Here's Meltdown.
00:20Yeah, free swag and all.
00:22Rick, how are you?
00:23I am doing great.
00:25I'm, you know, in the throes of Zoom interviews all day long, you know, because my memoir's out.
00:33So, but I'm doing all right.
00:35How are you doing?
00:36I'm doing great.
00:36It's a pleasure to talk to you.
00:37The book, as Alec, you said, came out October 10th.
00:39It's a great read.
00:40What's harder, writing a book or talking about it?
00:44Well, definitely writing it has its challenges, you know.
00:49So, the talking about it is, it's, I'm used to it because I talked about albums coming
00:56out all my life, you know, and doing the rounds and concert tours and all, you know, that kind
01:00of thing.
01:01But, I don't know.
01:02I thought I was going to retire and then apparently not, you know.
01:09Yeah, I'm never going to stop being creative.
01:12So, you know, when you say, oh, is it hard to write a book?
01:15Like, it's not hard because it's the way I'm wired.
01:18I'm wired to be creative, to write music and write songs and write guitar pieces and, you
01:22know, write books and poetry and whatever, you know.
01:25I'm wired to do that.
01:26But, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that the process is easy.
01:30You know, the process ends up having its challenges and its difficulties.
01:34And there are days when you look in the mirror and go, what kind of fool are you?
01:39What kind of fool am I?
01:41You should have wrote that.
01:43Speaking of this book.
01:44So, while I'm reading the book, I just had this question.
01:47It just kept burning through my mind.
01:48And not to be, like, crass or nothing, but what is the goal of this book?
01:52Is it to, like, set things straight?
01:53Is it to, like, tell your kids about the band?
01:56Is it to tell them?
01:57So, what exactly is, like, the number one thing that you want people to take away from this book?
02:01Yeah, well, all of those goals are good goals.
02:04And, you know, the number one thing, I think, was literally just to sort of see what I could
02:11learn about myself.
02:14Are you hearing my dog barking its full head off?
02:16Can you hear?
02:17Yeah, we're actually having a Halloween party.
02:19They're being quiet right now.
02:20But, yeah, I can hear your dog.
02:21So, as long as you're not hearing my Halloween party, I guess we're okay.
02:25Well, you know, I'm just worrying if it's ruining the audio.
02:28Not at all.
02:29Anyways, back to the question.
02:31Yeah.
02:31I think you end up writing a memoir because there's a lot of things you want to try and
02:36accomplish.
02:37Well, for me, anyways, you know, like legacy, setting records straight, all of those kinds
02:41of things.
02:41But, honestly, once you start it, you realize that you're kind of on this, you know, journey
02:46of self-discovery.
02:47And that's true of any creative act, you know, the writing of songs, all of the things that
02:54I listed before.
02:55So, you know, you're always just trying to figure out, how can I be a better me?
03:01You know, what's the road to a better me?
03:03And I think that kind of thing, that sort of moral thing, that thing about virtue, that
03:09was kind of something that became very clear to me from writing the book, that, you know,
03:13I was the kind of guy that decided, you know, and there's somewhere in the book I talk about
03:18the fact that, you know, if you choose the higher road, it's not necessarily the shorter
03:22road, but it's kind of better lit.
03:24You know, it's easier to see your way.
03:27And the price you have to pay for the roads that are the darker shortcuts, like, I was
03:34never really willing to do that.
03:35Like, you know, I mean, one of the big cliches about being a rock star, he said, making air
03:41quotes, is that, you know, the whole sex and drugs and rock and roll kind of thing.
03:47And I was never really interested in the sex and drugs, you know.
03:51And the price you had to pay, a big thing was that once I got started into my 20s and
03:57you're going, you're playing shows night after night and I've got to, you know, it was a
04:01trio.
04:02There was a lot of responsibility on me to be running around and fronting the band and
04:06singing songs and singing higher than, you know, helium.
04:09And yeah, so there was all of this stuff going on and you go, I got to take care of myself.
04:15So anything where I thought, yeah, I'm putting my health in jeopardy here or, you know, my
04:19little five foot eight body that weighs, you know, 140 dripping wet coming out of the shower.
04:25I go, yeah, I think I better take care of it.
04:27I think I better not, you know, burn my candle at both ends.
04:30So, you know, it made life easier for me as a musician and as an artist, if I was trying
04:37to take care of myself, as opposed to go, yeah, let's party.
04:41Yeah.
04:41There was a lot of stuff that I learned about you.
04:44I mean, obviously I'm not a Rick Emmett historian, but there was a lot of stuff that I learned
04:47about you.
04:48I didn't realize that you had tried to actually leave the band for quite some time.
04:51You were, you were raised in a family and the, and the time never really came, was never
04:56a good time.
04:56And it seemed like, and that went on for a few years, didn't it?
04:59Yeah.
05:00And, and the truth of it is that there, there never was a good time.
05:04And then when I finally decided it was ugly and it was horrible and it was terrible.
05:09And then we fought for a couple of decades and, you know, it was bad.
05:14And then we had, I had to figure out a long way back, you know, how do I get over myself?
05:22Because I was like the, the anger and the resentment and, you know, the hurt that was, it
05:29had sort of become a part of me.
05:30And it was a part of me that I was holding onto with almost with some kind of pride, you
05:34know, like a, a stubborn kind of pride.
05:36And you go, and this isn't good.
05:38This is like, you know, the Hatfield and the McCoys, you know, like, are my children's
05:44children going to carry this grave?
05:46You know, you know, so that seemed like, no, there's, there's a better person that I
05:51could find.
05:51And, and that was really at the urging of my brother when he was getting towards the
05:56end of his life and cancer was making it so that it was ending way shorter than it should
06:01have.
06:02But, you know, you do that kind of soul searching and you have those kinds of conversations
06:06and it was good.
06:07He sort of turned the tables on me and it was like, no, no, you gotta, you gotta try and
06:12find the better part of yourself.
06:13And I was going, oh, geez.
06:15Okay.
06:15Yeah.
06:16Yeah.
06:17I guess I should.
06:18And he was, he was also the guy who led you to, uh, to regroup with the guys and play
06:22some shows.
06:24Yeah.
06:24I mean, he was probably one of the band's biggest fans.
06:26Right.
06:27And, uh, certainly he loved it when, you know, we were talking about Buffalo earlier.
06:32Uh, one of the big things about Buffalo was you could get a Canadian Toronto based limousine
06:37services and you could run the cars down, play the gig and then bring the cars back, take
06:43the cars back.
06:43And of course my brother loved that he would get a limo and, you know, he'd be going across
06:48the peace bridge and going like, Hey, look at me, you're a rock star, you know?
06:53So he loved that.
06:54Like, and he was very proud of me and, and, uh, yeah.
06:58So, you know, I have lots and lots of sweet memories of, of his relationship to the whole
07:03triumph experience.
07:04So then when he was saying, come on, you gotta fix it for me.
07:07You get, you, you gotta get that back so that even when I'm gone, you'll still have
07:12it and that'll be a thing that you remember about me.
07:15Right.
07:15So I went, okay, okay.
07:17That makes, that makes good sense.
07:19You know, that makes really kind of healthy, positive sense.
07:23Now you mentioned Buffalo, of course, uh, Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit, Chicago, this
07:27whole Midwest has always been pretty good for a Canadian rock bands, but you guys really
07:31kind of got your start down in Texas, right?
07:33Yeah.
07:33Yeah.
07:34The breakout was from San Antonio and it was because of radio, you know, and I'm not sure
07:39that even works anymore.
07:40You know, like I don't think radio breaks acts, you know, uh, because of course we now have
07:46the internet, said Greg, making air quotes again, you know, uh, we have digital technology
07:51that sort of rules the universe, but, uh, yeah, back in the day, if you got airplay, uh, then
07:58you could, and then of course there was two guys that were kind of, one guy was the music
08:02director, uh, or maybe, maybe even program director.
08:06I'm not sure.
08:07Lou Roney.
08:07And then there was this guy, Joe Anthony, who was like the midnight all night kind of
08:12rock guy.
08:13And he had like a Tex-Mex kind of background.
08:16So he had a huge following of people that would listen to him, you know, all night long
08:21and he would break acts.
08:22He would play Rush albums and he would play Judas Priest records and, you know, whatever a
08:26new record came out.
08:28So the first Triath album, he started playing it like it was Stairway to Heaven.
08:32And, uh, so then it was like, and these guys, they were in cahoots with the local promoter
08:38kind of guy.
08:39So it's like, Hey, will you come down and play a show?
08:41Sammy Hagar can't, can't make his show.
08:43Will you come down?
08:44So it was like, all right, we're coming to fill in, you know?
08:47And so that was really the first big concert experience we had in the States too, because
08:51we'd played clubs and bars, but we'd never really played a concert.
08:55And the Sammy Hagar situation, I think the other bands were like Yesterday and Today and
09:00the Runaways.
09:02So a very young Lita Ford and the Curry sisters and stuff.
09:07Anyways, you know, but they'd already sold like 5,000 tickets.
09:13So we were stepping into this thing where, you know, uh-oh, are we going to be able to
09:17carry it?
09:18And, you know, we brought down our flamethrower, you know, we had mirror balls going and cop
09:25car lights.
09:26And I think the audience just went, what is this band?
09:29You know, this is incredible.
09:31Like, what an experience.
09:33And it was probably a relatively cheap ticket because it was in cahoots with the radio station.
09:37We did a lot of those in the early days too.
09:39You know, we'd break a market by bringing our show into town, playing a small theater.
09:44No one knew who we were, but it'd be like a buck 99 ticket, you know?
09:48And then they'd see the big production and they'd go, oh, man, you missed it.
09:53The word of mouth would be really strong after the fact.
09:56Yeah.
09:56So, you know, I was thinking about that when I was reading the book because Kiss was just
09:59in town on Friday night.
10:00And of course, talk about bombacity and flames and lights and all that stuff.
10:05How much did Kiss rub off on you on your live show?
10:08Or didn't the paths ever cross?
10:10I mean, I never saw that band live, but Gil, I think, went and saw them a few times and
10:16he really, that was Gil's thing, the drummer, Gil Moore.
10:20It was his thing that production was, it was sort of his bailiwick, all that stuff went across
10:25his desk and he loved it.
10:29He kind of relished the idea of, I mean, I don't know if you've seen the documentary,
10:34but he tells the story.
10:35Okay, so he tells the story about going to buy the propane torch and Mike and I are just
10:41crying, laughing because it's him.
10:45That's him.
10:46You know, he loved the idea and he would know the technical language.
10:51He would know the, and he would mock me if I ever got the technical language for anything
10:56wrong.
10:56Like he knew, you know, the wattage of what was inside the park.
11:01Like he knew how to wire a PA, but he also knew how to wire the electricity.
11:10Like we would go into a high school, for example, to play and you would have to tap off the main
11:15panel in order to provide enough lights for power for the lights that we had and the effects
11:20and the dry ice machine and all this.
11:22So we needed to have our own almost like 220 power off the, off the, and Gil, he understood
11:29all that stuff.
11:30I mean, to me, that's still, I don't know, voodoo.
11:34Now in, in your book, you always just, you always, you always, uh, called the guys, uh,
11:39Mike and Gil, your partners.
11:40You never called them your bandmates or anything like that.
11:42Um, yeah, I mean, because it was in the original, um, in the original, uh, uh, vision of the
11:54band, it was a business kind of these two guys that I had, they were strangers to me
11:58who said, okay, we've got this thing called triumph.
12:01We've got this, you know, here's contracts for gigs.
12:04Here's, here's, you know, posters we've printed up for shows.
12:08They had contracts for shows.
12:09They had a record deal that like, there was a lot that was on the table that these two
12:14guys had put together in a business when I was stepping into a partnership.
12:19And the truth of it was that it worked in the early stages because it did have a kind
12:26of an ethos that was three musketeers.
12:28Like we kind of went, all right, all for one, one for all, we're all going to, you know,
12:32make sacrifices and compromise and collaborate.
12:34And, um, but it was always a kind of a business, uh, ongoing business partnership.
12:43And, um, when that started to come apart, when the musketeers thing could sort of bled
12:50out of it and it happens, you know, rock bands don't last.
12:53The Beatles didn't last most successful band in the history of bands.
12:58And they didn't last because people grow up and they get their own lives and they get
13:02their own lives and their own children and their, their own investments and their own
13:06interests.
13:07And, you know, George Harrison decides I would like to make my own solo album, you know?
13:12Um, so, you know, uh, but all of that stuff that I've just talked about, um, the, the,
13:19the, the common ground, the place where it all met was sort of sitting down to a business
13:25meeting and talking about a tour or talking about a merch deal.
13:28So I did think of both of them as partners.
13:30Uh, they are friends, you know, uh, but they're not close friends.
13:36You know, we, we get together for a Christmas dinner every year, but we don't really ever
13:41see much of each other other than from time to time here and there, something that comes
13:47along because of the business, you know, it's sort of what pulls us together.
13:51So did, did, did you, did you send them a copy of your book or had they read it?
13:55No, I, I sent them copies.
13:57Uh, I had a really nice thing where I was, uh, I went over to the metal works cause I
14:02was, I was recording some stuff for a pickup company that I have an endorsement deal with.
14:08And, uh, so I was recording little guitar snippets on the, on these new pickups in this new
14:12guitar of mine, blah, blah, blah.
14:14But I was doing it at the metal works in studio one, the studio that was the original one that,
14:18that we built.
14:19And, uh, so, you know, there, there's a whole bunch of surreal kinds of emotions and feelings
14:24when you're dealing with something like that.
14:26And then Gil and I are standing out in the parking lot after, and he goes, yeah, so your
14:29book says, uh, I'm not much of a reader, eh?
14:33But, um, I get my daughter to read it.
14:35And then when there's sections where my name is mentioned, I get her to read those to me
14:39out loud.
14:41Okay, good.
14:43You know, and he goes, Rick, you were too kind.
14:45You're, you're, you're a very generous guy, you know, and I went, well, you know, uh, I
14:52had a friend, Terrence Hart young, who, uh, he, he'd been a politician for a large part
14:59of his adult life.
15:00And he'd, you know, been in both the provincial parliament and the federal one.
15:04And so he, he had a pretty good understanding of if you're putting your foot in your mouth,
15:09uh, if you're getting along with guys in caucus, if you're getting along with folks from the
15:14other side of the aisle, all of that kind of, and so I had him free read the triumph
15:18chapter, you know, and he had some very good advice where he said, you know, for that legacy
15:25thing, you don't want to focus on the stuff that was the negative stuff.
15:30Yes.
15:30Sure.
15:31There were bad things in there.
15:32And yes, that's kind of why people come to the book and they're, they're going to want
15:36to read the, you know, Ooh, this is, I'm really getting the crap from the horse's mouth, you
15:42know?
15:42Um, but, and I, and I do think you have to service that kind of, uh, uh, interest that
15:49folks have, but by the, Terry was saying, you don't, you don't stay there.
15:54Like you figured out how to, uh, get back together with them and become friends again.
16:00And that side of you is the, is the more virtuous side and that's what you should focus on.
16:06And so, you know, I told this to Gil and Gil goes, well, that was good advice.
16:10You know, that was, it's nice to have friends like that, that, you know, um, yeah.
16:15So it was good instead of him, you know, sticking a lawyer on me, he, he was complimenting me.
16:21Yeah.
16:22You know, you, uh, you, uh, we're, we're talking about this earlier.
16:25Actually, I shouldn't say that.
16:26Let me, let me back up.
16:27There's things that I didn't know in the book.
16:28And one of the things was that when he left triumph, you actually got pursued by Tom
16:33Scholes in Asia and damn Yankees and all this stuff that, that was interesting.
16:38Yeah.
16:38You know, you make it sound like, uh, pursuit makes it sound like somebody's chasing me around
16:44the table, you know, um, you know, those were just little things that sort of came my way
16:50and I investigated them and considered them.
16:53And then, you know, uh, diplomatically and gently passed just cause I didn't, I didn't want
16:57to join another band, you know, and especially I didn't want to join another band situation
17:02where I was really just going to be kind of a glorified side man.
17:05You know, um, um, I really understood that my business before when I was with triumph had
17:13been predicated on being a songwriter and having publishing and all of those kinds of
17:18things.
17:18So then when you step back into the role of just being a guitar player, singer kind of
17:23guy in a band, you know, it was like, um, I would just say in the end guys, you know,
17:30I'm honored.
17:31But, you know, I got my own little thing.
17:33I think I'd rather just be doing my own little thing.
17:36And this is an interesting thing for people to understand.
17:39I don't know if I got into this specifically in the book or not, but you know, when you're
17:42in a band and there's a pie and the pie is getting cut up into pieces and everybody's
17:47getting their managers and agents and, you know, whatever.
17:49And then the band members, everybody's getting their, their piece, you know, I don't need
17:54as big a pie when I go out on my own because most of the pie is going to be mine, you know?
18:01And like, I have a lot of admiration for guys like say John Mayer goes out on a solo acoustic
18:09tour and he's playing like these big arenas.
18:12I'm going, Oh, he's making so much money, you know, like it's, it's kind of harder.
18:18It's harder to do a show just by, you know, like there are certain demands that are being
18:23made of you, but in another way, it's easier because now you're not trying to be louder
18:28than that, you know, sideman over there who's playing really loud, you know, like, so, you
18:34know, um, sometimes simpler is better.
18:36Sometimes modest is better, you know?
18:39And I liked that, you know, I kind of liked the idea of shrinking it down a bit and then
18:43going, well, yes, it's smaller, but it's all me.
18:46Well, except for the fun, we'll leave it to the, to the fans to read it in the book
18:49before you played in that grocery store or whatever.
18:52Oh, yeah.
18:53Well, you know, here's the thing too, about writing a book.
18:56You asked me earlier, like editing is a hard thing because you've, I've got probably a dozen,
19:02maybe more just horror stories about being a musician, you know?
19:05And then you go, well, you can't put them all in there.
19:08You got to just sort of, you got to pick one.
19:10You got to pick one.
19:11Yeah.
19:11So that was the one that I picked, you know, and a couple more final things here for you
19:16because we're running short here, but, uh, ask you about your, your Michigan connections,
19:20because obviously since we're in Detroit and stuff, you've done a lot of stuff, not only
19:24with the band in Michigan, but in your personal life as well.
19:27Yeah.
19:27Yeah.
19:27I had a son that went to central Michigan university on a baseball scholarship and, um, he
19:33got the full ride, uh, but he was also, it was academic cause he's, he's way smarter
19:38than I am, way more talented than I am too.
19:41Uh, I had a thing that happened to him once, just quick side story.
19:44You can probably edit this out if you don't like it, but he was, uh, he was about grade
19:49nine and going into 10 and he had started playing for the Toronto, the Ontario Blue Jays
19:55traveling team.
19:56So he was still in high school, but you know, he clearly had this, you know, exceptional,
20:00uh, athletic gift, but he was also a really good trumpet player and he was in the school
20:05band kind of thing.
20:05And so I got a call one day from the, uh, the lead music teacher at the school and he
20:11goes, your son is dropping music.
20:14I go, well, yeah, he's on this traveling baseball thing and, you know, it's hard enough for him
20:17just to keep up with all of his other subjects.
20:20He's never going to be able to make your rehearsals and stuff.
20:22He goes, no, Rick, he, he, he's got a gift.
20:27Like he, he's an exceptional musician.
20:29Like you, you can't let him let the slip away.
20:33And I went, Whoa, you can't tell me what I can tell my son about my son's life.
20:40He's making his own decision about who he wants to be and how he wants to do it.
20:44And if music is not his choice, then, you know, I'm not going to force him because I
20:48remember what it was like when my, you know, I was choosing music and my dad was going, no,
20:53you're not, you know, I'm wanting to grow my hair long and be a, you know, a guy in a
20:57bit.
20:58Anyways, that's a little off topic, but back to Michigan.
21:01Yeah.
21:01So, uh, he played once at, um, against Michigan state at Comerica park and I got to sing the
21:10anthem there, you know, which was really cool.
21:12Like this moment standing in the tunnel before I go out, the umpires are there and they go,
21:16Hey man, can you sing fight to good fight?
21:19I'm looking at them and I go, no, that's not in the contract.
21:23For the gig guys.
21:23I, I think I'm just going to try and get your American Anthem, right.
21:26You know, anyhow.
21:27Um, and I used to go play up the peninsula sometimes I would have promoters.
21:32And so, uh, yeah.
21:34And triumph once rehearsed in Kalamazoo, we, we rented the wing stadium before we went out
21:41on a tour.
21:42And that's where we set up the show and rehearse there and shot a TV commercial in that building
21:46and, and then started the tour in Kalamazoo.
21:49So yeah, I've got a lot of, uh, I got a lot of connections to Michigan.
21:53For sure.
21:53Speaking of another connection you got, uh, with, uh, John five, he says, uh, how old
21:57were you when you, uh, started to learn and develop your Chet Atkins style picking technique?
22:02That's what he wanted me to ask you.
22:03Oh, well, that's nice of him.
22:05Uh, and, but he said some nice things in the, uh, triumph documentary, man.
22:09That's right.
22:10And he's an incredible guitar player.
22:12Like I'm a big fan of what he's done and the fact that he can kind of bounce from band
22:17to band.
22:17I'm going, how does he keep all the repertoire straight in his head?
22:20You know, I have a hard enough time remembering songs I wrote myself, nevermind other guys
22:25tunes and arrangements.
22:27And anyhow, um, I think I started to kind of get into the Chet Atkins thing.
22:33Well, it was more, uh, uh, Roy Clark on hee-haw, you know, yeah, yeah.
22:41So that was kind of the beginning of, um, Ooh, there's, there's another way you can approach
22:46the guitar.
22:47But when I was, uh, and I'm going to say 12 years old, 13 years old, my older brother
22:53had bought me, uh, um, a couple of classical records on for Christmas.
22:58It was like Andre Segovia, the guitar in it.
23:00And so that whole idea of finger style, nylon string guitar, that was a part of me, even
23:07as I was also wanting to play Beatles songs and wanting to be in a rock band and, and
23:10Oh, here comes Clapton and Hendrix and all of that kind of lead guitar distortion, you
23:15know, wah-wahs and fuzz boxes and all of this, you know, stuff that's like going in one
23:21direction, but I was still, I would go on Thursday nights to the West End YMCA in Toronto
23:26and they would have a coffee house and I would have a nylon string guitar and I would
23:30play, you know, little guitar pieces of my own, uh, and, you know, Malaguania, the Roy
23:36Clark version, you know, it would always go over well, you know?
23:40Um, so I always kind of had that.
23:42And then if you look, like I, I always had a subscription to guitar player magazine.
23:46This is the best answer to John's question, you know?
23:49Uh, yeah, it's like, so you were always getting exposed to, Hey, this is what Joe passed
23:55us.
23:55This is what Chet Atkins does.
23:57Well, this is what Django Reinhardt does.
23:58You were aware of the fact that there were these guitar players like Wes Montgomery would
24:04be another example.
24:05And, and so all of that stuff was, even though I was a rock guy, that stuff was really influential
24:12on me.
24:13So I always had a little bit of finger style.
24:15So, yeah, you can hear it here and there through some of the, uh, interludes and some
24:19of the, uh, records and whatnot.
24:20But, uh, well, listen, uh, the, the book is out late on the line of backstage pass to
24:24rockstar adventure, conflict and triumph.
24:27Uh, my friend Russ and, uh, Daryl from killer dwarfs wanted to say hello.
24:31Russ said he saw you play at Bayview high school when you were way back in the day.
24:35I don't know if you remember those guys, but, uh, yeah, they're super good dudes and, uh,
24:38big fans as well.
24:38Oh, that's great.
24:40I love that.
24:41And we did play a lot of high schools in the early days.
24:43It's a shame that that market, you know, doesn't really exist for, for baby bands coming up
24:48anymore, you know, because you can, you can earn relatively decent money and you were kind
24:53of in front of a captive audience for whatever it was you were trying to do, you know, and
24:57we played a lot of high schools and we got banned from them eventually because once we
25:02had the propane torch going, sometimes we blow out the ceiling tiles from our flash pots and
25:08then they go, you're never playing our board of education ever again.
25:11And we went, well, who cares?
25:13You know?
25:14Yeah.
25:14Off to bigger and better things.
25:16Well, Rick, thank you so much for your time.
25:17And, uh, the book is out.
25:18It's killer.
25:19Like I said, and, uh, we appreciate talking to you.
25:22Thanks, Mel Town.