India on Wednesday announced that it was going to pause the Indus Waters Treaty with Pakistan with immediate effect in response to the Pahalgam terrorist attack, in which 26 tourists were killed.
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00:00First attack since Pulwama 2019
00:1528 tourists skilled in cold blood
00:30Kashmir to Kochi, country in mourning
00:41Terror bleeds India again
00:45Masterminds sit across the border
00:53How will India respond?
01:05Good evening, hello and welcome to our special continuing coverage on the aftermath of that horrific massacre that's taken place in Pahalgam yesterday.
01:15How will the government of India respond will be our top focus and we'll have several special guests joining us including Faruk Abdullah.
01:23But first let me bring you the big breaking news at this moment.
01:27The cabinet committee on security chaired by the Prime Minister has just ended.
01:34Key security meet has lasted for nearly two and a half hours.
01:38Amit Shah, Dr. Jaishankar, Rajnath Singh, NSA Ajit Doval all part of the meeting.
01:45The next step is a Ministry of External Affairs briefing that we expect in a short while from now.
01:52So we're getting the details that that meeting has been chaired by the Prime Minister.
01:57We're expecting a complete meeting, a complete briefing of the Ministry of External Affairs shortly.
02:04Okay, Piyush Bishra now joins us from the Prime Minister's residence.
02:09Piyush, what are you picking up?
02:11What was the main focus in terms of how India is expected to respond for now to what happened in Pahalgam yesterday?
02:24Well Rajdeep, a crucial meeting has just concluded.
02:27Remember that the cabinet committee on security meeting went on for 2.5 hours and after that meeting,
02:33one-to-one meeting between PM Narendra Modi and Homeless Ramit Shah also went on for around 20 minutes.
02:39Homeless Ramit Shah has just left and while he was leaving, he was also seen talking with someone on phone.
02:44So it was a crucial meeting which has now concluded.
02:47It's very sure that Defence Minister Rajnath Singh would have briefed about the current situation
02:54because he himself had held a three-hour meeting with the Defence Ministry officials and after
03:01and remember that Homeless Ramit Shah was on his visit to Srinagar and then to Pahalgam.
03:07So Homeless Ramit Shah would have briefed about the current situation there in Jammu and Kashmir.
03:13The meeting has now concluded.
03:15All the members have now left.
03:17Homeless Ramit Shah has just left.
03:19We are also expecting a briefing by the Ministry of External Affairs
03:22and most likely a lot of things are going to get clear after the government's first response come in officially.
03:29We are going to hear from the Ministry as to how the government will now move ahead
03:34as far as its promise of giving befitting reply to Pakistan is concerned.
03:38So the meeting is now concluding.
03:40We are now waiting for the government's response.
03:42Okay, Peevush Mishra joining us.
03:44We will wait to hear what the official response of the Ministry of External Affairs is.
03:49But let me bring you all the top developments on that big story through the day.
03:54Anger and grief over that ghastly terror attack that claimed 28 innocent lives near Pahalgam.
04:00The nation coming together to take a firm stand against terrorism.
04:03The top 10 developments.
04:05Home Minister Amit Shah visiting the Baisaran Meadow in Pahalgam to assess the security situation there.
04:11Shah assuring the nation that those behind the attack would be brought to justice.
04:15He also met with the bereaved families, many of whom were angry and demanding questions of the government.
04:21Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has also vowed a befitting reply to those who committed the crime.
04:26He said those who planned the ghastly attack will also be punished.
04:30Let's go straight now to the Ministry of External Affairs briefing,
04:33which is taking place as we speak to listen in to India's formal response.
04:37Ministry of External Affairs.
04:39I would also like to let you know that we have pressing engagements following this press briefing.
04:46So we will not be in a position to take questions from you.
04:49We can do that subsequently.
04:51With that, I give the floor to Foreign Secretary.
04:55Sir, over to you.
04:57Thank you, Randeer.
04:59Good evening.
05:01Thank you all for your patience and for joining at this relatively late hour.
05:08I have some prepared remarks that I will share with you.
05:14And as Randeer said, due to some preoccupations, we will not be able to take questions tonight.
05:20The Cabinet Committee on Security met this evening under the chairmanship of the Honourable Prime Minister.
05:30The CCS was briefed in detail on the terrorist attack on 22 April 2025 in Pahlkam in Jammu and Kashmir, in which 25 Indians and one Nepali citizen were killed.
05:45A number of others sustained injuries.
05:50The CCS condemned the attack in the strongest terms and expressed its deepest condolences to the families of the victims and hoped for the early recovery of the injured.
06:04Strong expressions of support and solidarity have been received from many governments around the world which have unequivocally condemned this terror attack.
06:16The CCS recorded its appreciation for such sentiments which reflect zero tolerance for terrorism.
06:25In the briefing to the CCS, the cross-border linkages of the terrorist attack were brought out.
06:34It was noted that this attack came in the wake of the successful holding of the elections in the Union Territory and its steady progress towards economic growth and development.
06:50Recognizing the seriousness of this terrorist attack, the CCS decided upon the following measures.
07:001. The Indus-Waters Treaty of 1960 will be held in abeyance with immediate effect until Pakistan credibly and irrevocably abjures its support for cross-border terrorism.
07:152. The integrated checkpost Atari will be closed with immediate effect.
07:23Those who have crossed over with valid endorsements may return through that route before 1 May 2025.
07:323. Pakistani nationals will not be permitted to travel to India under the SARC visa exemption scheme visas.
07:43Any SVAS visas issued in the past to Pakistani nationals are deemed cancelled.
07:51Any Pakistani national currently in India under SVAS visa has 48 hours to leave India.
07:584. The Defence, Military, Naval and Air advisors in the Pakistani High Commission in New Delhi are declared persona non grata.
08:09They have a week to leave India.
08:12India will be withdrawing its own Defence, Navy and Air advisors from the Indian High Commission in Islamabad.
08:20These posts in the respective High Commissions are deemed annulled.
08:255. Support staff of the service advisors will also be withdrawn from both High Commissions.
08:335. The overall strength of the High Commissions will be brought down to 30 from the present 55 through further reductions to be effected by 1 May 2025.
08:506. The CCS reviewed the overall security situation and directed all forces to maintain high vigil.
09:006. It resolved that the perpetrators of this attack will be brought to justice and their sponsors held to account.
09:097. As with the recent extradition of Tahavur Rana, India will be unrelenting in the pursuit of those who have committed
09:19acts of terror or conspired to hold them, to make them possible. Thank you very much.
09:26Thank you ladies and gentlemen. With that we come to the closure of this press briefing. Thank you very much.
09:32Okay, strong words there from the Indian Foreign Secretary. The WAGA-Atari border to be closed.
09:42All Pakistani nationals who have been given visas to India will have to leave the country by the 1st of May.
09:47And the Pakistani Embassy and the Indian High Commission in their respective countries will be downsized.
09:54And the Indus Water Treaty will be annulled for now.
09:59Pakistani Army Advisors India are persona non grata.
10:02So India's first steps largely diplomatic. Putting the diplomatic heat on Pakistan seems to be now step one that the Indian government has taken.
10:13We are going to process all of that. We'll be joined by expert diplomats to look at exactly what this means, what India has done.
10:21The first step, first response after the CCS is to take the appropriate diplomatic measures, Indus Water Treaty, visas and indeed the Atari-WAGA border.
10:33All of them part of what the Indian government has done at the moment.
10:38So those are the first steps that has been taken by the Indian government.
10:44Tough steps that have been taken in terms of diplomacy. But so far the government very cautious to keep the diplomatic steps that they've taken away from any possible security response and armed response that they will give.
11:00Joining me now is Gaurav Savan. Gaurav, it appears that the first step is primarily diplomatic in terms of the response.
11:09It indeed is, Rajdeep. And holding the Indus Water Treaty in abeyance is a very major signal of intent by the Narendra Modi government.
11:18And that's a signal that has been spoken of in the past, but not actually actioned upon when you say that Indus Water Treaty is held in abeyance.
11:26The signal that goes out to Pakistan is that water for Pakistan is not more important than blood of innocent Indians.
11:33And as you very well know, the three rivers in India is an upper riparian state and water from the Indus Water from the Indus River and the three other rivers, very crucial for Punjab farmers, Pakistan Punjab farmers and down the chain.
11:48So it's not that you're stopping that water, but you're holding the treaty in abeyance is not sharing data, not sharing information.
11:55There are certain other clauses about the treaty, which will be held in abeyance for now.
12:02Withdrawing the defense attaches, Army, Navy and Air Force, withdrawing the military attaches, reducing staff strength at the high commissions from 55 down to 30.
12:12Remember, it's 110 is the sanctioned strength. So first our high commissioners were withdrawn, then certain other senior officers were withdrawn.
12:19But when you withdraw the naval attache, the air attache, the Army, military attache and the support staff, that's another signal that is being sent out.
12:27SARC visas, everyone's being told you go back, those visas stand unearthed.
12:32So, you know, when people talk about Rajdeep, that, you know, SARC should be revived.
12:37Narendra Modi government has anywhere said SARC has been held to ransom by Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror.
12:44And unless that is addressed, there is no movement on SARC. So, you know, that's another very major signal that the government sends out.
12:51What about questions over alleged intelligence lapses, the security situation, the unified command situation on the ground?
12:59Had those issues been looked at or that has been left for a later day?
13:03The first step is what we've seen today in terms of diplomatically sending out the message to Pakistan.
13:10Rajdeep, that's a pertinent point that you raised.
13:12But when the Foreign Secretary briefs on the Cabinet after the Cabinet Committee on Security, it's a message that's going out to the world.
13:18What we do internally within our country is something that perhaps the Home Minister in his briefing and meetings that he's held in Srinagar and with the unified command would be addressing at that level.
13:31But this is a much bigger thing because it's cross-border terror perpetrated by Pakistan.
13:36While we set a house in order internally, the message has to go out to that state sponsor of radical Islamist terror that they have to set their house in order.
13:45And it may take time, as the Foreign Secretary pointed out, Rajdeep, whereas a terrorist like Tahavar Hussain Rana, when India made an effort and managed to extradite him and get him back to India, the other perpetrators, they would also go after as we ensure, you know, as the country ensures what is to be done internally is handled internally.
14:03But while we sought out a house in order, the external threat has to be dealt with in the form of Pakistan terror, Rajdeep.
14:10We'll wait and see what next, what other steps India takes.
14:15Coercive diplomacy for now seems to be the first step that India has taken in the aftermath of that terror attack in Pahalgam.
14:23Thanks very much, Gaurav Savan, for joining us with those details.
14:27Now, of course, all of this is putting more and more focus on the situation in the Kashmir Valley.
14:34Pakistan-sponsored terror has been something that Kashmir has had to live with for more than three decades now.
14:41Earlier today, I spoke in an exclusive interview to the Jammu and Kashmir National Conference Chief, Faruk Abdullah.
14:48His is the ruling party in Jammu and Kashmir. Listen in to this exclusive with Dr. Abdullah.
15:02And as the country grapples with grief and anger over the dastardly massacre by terrorists in Pahalgam,
15:09I'm joined by a very special guest, the President of the Jammu and Kashmir National Conference,
15:15the ruling party of the Union Territory of Jammu and Kashmir and multiple times Chief Minister, Dr. Faruk Abdullah joins me.
15:23Appreciate your joining us, Dr. Faruk Abdullah. They're from Jammu.
15:26Your first reactions to what happened yesterday, this dastardly attack?
15:32I think it's the greatest tragedy we have faced after what happened and we're martyred.
15:47And I think this is a disaster.
15:51We were thinking peace has returned.
15:54And great slogans are made that we have uprooted all these elements.
16:02I think those who said these things were completely unaware or uninformed that they still exist.
16:12But the fact is, you're saying that these elements still exist.
16:19The truth of the matter therefore is, and you've seen it in your times as well,
16:23that Pakistan sponsored terror continues to wreak havoc in Jammu and Kashmir over the years.
16:31And what are you therefore squarely blaming Pakistan for what happened in Pahalgam?
16:40Rajdeep, we have faced this for the past 40 years.
16:47We have continuously said that it's coming from there.
16:52Every time.
16:56We have never stopped saying that.
16:59We continue to say it.
17:02And we'll continue to say it till it's ended.
17:07But who is accountable?
17:09Who is accountable?
17:10What is the solution?
17:11From the late 80s now to 2025 at various stages, Pakistan has bloodied the Kashmir Valley.
17:19Who, how do you then tackle it?
17:22What is the solution, Dr. Abdullah?
17:24That is the solution that government of India has to find.
17:29It is they who are responsible for the security and well-being of the people of this nation.
17:39It is for them to take their decisive steps to end this nasty things that are happening and our complete state is suffering.
17:53How long do you think we'll continue to suffer?
17:56But there was a sense, Dr. Abdullah, after the revocation of Article 370 that normalcy was returning to the Kashmir Valley.
18:07Major infrastructure projects were put in place.
18:09There was development.
18:10Elections took place last year with a relatively high turnout.
18:14Are you saying that this one incident pushes us back yet again?
18:19The government of India will say, look, we've actually made some tangible gains on the ground in the last few years.
18:25Please, it is not this only Pahlkam incident.
18:30What about what happened in Bilawar?
18:34What happened in Jammu regions, in Rajauri, in Punch?
18:42But you see…
18:43It's not only Pahlkam.
18:44It has been continuously happening.
18:48Yes, Dr. Abdullah, but the truth of the matter is, let's be clear.
18:51You were chief minister for several years.
18:53At that state, nothing could be resolved.
18:55Now, you've got the Modi government.
18:57Earlier, you've had Vajpayee's government, Manmohan Singh's government.
19:00No government, no individual government, whether in Srinagar or in Delhi, sir,
19:05has been able to find a silver bullet magic solution to end cross-border terrorism
19:11faced with a country like Pakistan that seems determined to bleed us in Jammu and Kashmir.
19:18They have been bleeding us slowly and steadily.
19:23There's nothing new about it.
19:26For 40 years, they've been bleeding us.
19:30And they will continue to bleed us unless we start thinking and think positively
19:37of how to get rid of this.
19:40What do you mean by think positively?
19:41In the past, you've been among the advocates for a dialogue with Pakistan.
19:46There are others who believe the time for dialogue is long over.
19:50Now you need to have some very concrete action, possibly even across the border.
19:55The surgical strikes have taken place.
19:57There was balakot.
19:58What, according to you, is the positive action that needs to be taken?
20:00Let me tell you, Arjeev, I am not in command.
20:06And I'm not going to suggest anything to the government of India.
20:10They don't need my suggestion.
20:12I think they are intelligent enough to decide themselves.
20:16But I'll definitely like to tell them, you can't have dual control in Kashmir.
20:23Whereas Lieutenant Gunter, the government, governor, controls security, controls police.
20:29He controls the unified command.
20:33The state government does not have any say in these things.
20:38Imagine, we are elected government.
20:41And elected government is never brought into discussions when security matters are discussed.
20:48How do you think you will resolve these problems?
20:52Unless you have the state government and the people to sit with you and decide how to get on.
20:59I'm told today there was a security review meeting and Omar Abdullah was not invited for that meeting.
21:04Are you saying, therefore, that Omar Abdullah and the national conference government have no responsibility?
21:12Arjeev, last time when the Home Minister came, only a week ago, he had security meeting.
21:21Chief Minister was not in it.
21:24It's only this thing, when this time this happened, Chief Minister was called into the meeting.
21:30Let's be very straight about it.
21:32But therefore, are you saying the Chief Minister bears no accountability, no responsibility?
21:40It's not a question of responsibility.
21:43You have taken him out of the responsibility.
21:50It's not we.
21:52We still are fighting.
21:53We are still bleeding.
21:54We are still bleeding.
21:55We are still bleeding.
21:56The first person who died today in that act was an ordinary horseman.
22:02Said Hussain.
22:04Poor fellow.
22:05He was the first man who jumped at this terrorist, tried to grab his gun and lost his life.
22:14He said, this is not right, what you are doing.
22:17He had that courage and determination to fight these people.
22:21We are not running away from them.
22:25We are going to fight them.
22:27But the truth of the matter is while, the truth of the matter is these terrorists singled out Hindus, targeted them and thereby want to drive a wedge between Hindus and Muslims.
22:38These were targeted killings, Dr. Abdullah.
22:42Rajdeep, it's not today only.
22:45They've already done before also the same thing.
22:48They targeted Hindus to create a wedge which has now been playing heavily in the country.
22:57Heavily.
22:58We see how much division is taking place between Hindus and Muslims because of Pakistan's actions.
23:10Are you going to put all the blame only on Pakistan today?
23:13What about Kashmir itself?
23:15The fact is that there is a belief that there were some local Kashmiris possibly also involved in this operation?
23:21Who says no?
23:28Who says no?
23:30Whether or not in, when it started in 89, there are people.
23:37There will be people.
23:40They have to be dealt with.
23:44So you're saying there are elements within the valley who are patronized by Pakistan?
23:50There are elements across the border who have entered and bloodied the valley.
23:56You are calling for stern action against all of them.
23:59You will support any action that Narendra Modi government takes.
24:03Am I correct?
24:05Rajdeep, we all want to live in peace and harmony and brotherhood.
24:10Take action which will try to bring that brotherhood back in our nation at all costs.
24:23Yes sir, but you will understand the anger and frustration of people because 35 years have elapsed from the time when you were Chief Minister and Kashmiri Pandits were driven out to today what we've seen in Pahlkam.
24:34There have been repeated attempts made by Pakistan to bloody the soil of Kashmir and yet nothing seems to change.
24:41That anger and frustration surely you will share of the people of this country.
24:47You know today for the first time after 35 years, whole Kashmir has risen up against this.
24:56Do you see this?
24:58It's a major change.
25:00Major change.
25:01They don't want anything to do with Pakistan.
25:05We are part of the nation called India.
25:08And we will remain part of this nation called India.
25:13Do you see therefore anger and frustration building up in Kashmir against Pakistan and indeed all those who use the gun to resolve issues?
25:22You believe that Kashmir has reached a tipping point?
25:26Sir Rajdeep, haven't you seen the anger in the valley today?
25:29Have you ever seen this before?
25:33Have you ever seen this?
25:36There's a complete shift.
25:39And I'm proud of that shift.
25:43Will it last? In your view, will it last? Will it be able to sustain itself?
25:51It will last.
25:52So long as we live in brotherhood and don't create further communal tension.
25:59This will last.
26:01Do you have a message for the Pakistani army chief who only last week said Hindus and Muslims cannot live together and emphasize the two nation theory?
26:11Do you have a message for General Meir today?
26:13I would like to tell the general, we never accepted two nation theory.
26:20God is creator of everyone.
26:23Whether he is a Hindu, he is a Muslim, he is a Sikh, he is a Christian or he is a Buddhist or anything.
26:30He is a creator.
26:31You cannot divide people on the basis of religion.
26:36If religion was to be a divisive factor, then Bangladesh would never have been created.
26:43What is your message to the tourists, sir?
26:47You will understand that tourists are fearful now.
26:50They are leaving the valley in droves.
26:52This was expected to be the big bumper tourist season in the Kashmir Valley.
26:56What will you tell those grief-stricken victims as well as those who have...
27:01Yes, go ahead.
27:03Tell them, by not coming, you are going to win the battle that Pakistan is trying to win.
27:09Come, come in larger numbers so that we can tell them that you cannot deter us.
27:17This is our land.
27:19And we are going to come in herds here.
27:22Don't be afraid.
27:24We have to fight them.
27:26And by not coming, you are going to be given to Pakistan's acts.
27:31Sir, there are those who are calling today for ministerial resignations,
27:35that the home minister must be held accountable.
27:38There were intelligence lapses.
27:39What's your view?
27:41Should this be a moment to play politics?
27:44Or is this a moment to stand united in grief and anger?
27:46I think we should stand united and not try to put fingers at each other.
27:55Not this is the moment when nation must stand together as they stood together when Kargil war took place.
28:03We need that unity today.
28:07We need that understanding between each other.
28:10Hold each other's hand and show our enemy that we are not going to be defeated.
28:16We are not going to accept your hegemony.
28:19Yes.
28:21You know, I didn't give you to any media.
28:25You I gave of this interview because you are one man in this country who stands for truth,
28:32who stands for brotherhood, who stands for unity of every man.
28:36That is why I gave you this interview because I am proud of you.
28:40That you are not afraid to use your word.
28:43Sir, my thoughts though today, I am very kind sir, but my thoughts today are with the victims,
28:49with the families and with the people who have lost their near and dear ones,
28:54as I am sure are your thoughts and prayers as well, Dr. Abdullah.
28:57Absolutely, Dr. Abdullah.
28:59I cannot tell you how much I... I didn't have the words.
29:05I can't even think that such a thing could happen to people who had gone for enjoyment.
29:11And they have to meet their death.
29:14It just shook me. I am still not normal.
29:18I don't think I will be normal ever.
29:21What they have done.
29:24Dr. Abdullah, I understand.
29:26I know that your pain and anguish, you told me this this morning also, is genuine.
29:30You haven't slept all night.
29:32You said you were shaken by what's happened as the nation has been.
29:35But as you rightly said, this is a moment also for collective resolve.
29:40And to send out a firm message to those who try and divide us.
29:44Farouk Abdullah for joining me here today.
29:47We are not going to bow.
29:49That they should understand.
29:51Yes, sir.
29:53Dr. Farouk Abdullah, thank you very much for joining me.
29:56Thank you, Rachi.
30:04Okay, my next guest is also a very special one.
30:07I am joined by General VP Malik, former Chief of Army Staff.
30:11He was Chief of Army Staff when the Kargil operation took place.
30:14General Malik, thank you very much for joining us.
30:15As you can well understand, lot of anger, grief after this horrific massacre in Pahalgam.
30:22What, according to you, is the right way to respond to what, by all accounts,
30:29is yet another example of Pakistan-sponsored terror targeting innocent civilians this time?
30:35Good evening, Rajdeep.
30:37I think first thing we have to face some truths.
30:42The truth is that our Western neighbor, Pakistan, they have always been encouraging jihadi elements,
30:50anti-Indian attitude, and now also anti-Hindu attitude.
30:56You would have, you have covered Asim Munir's open public statement where he has said that
31:04two-nation theory has to stay, or he wants that, he believes in that,
31:10and also that Hindus and Muslims are totally apart.
31:14And now this kind of a thing, the attitude from the other side, the mindset,
31:20is now getting aggravated, and it is encouraging the terrorist element,
31:25which the ISI has been harboring and supporting.
31:29So, the truth is that we have to face these incidents, isolated terrorist attacks.
31:38They have been going on for the last so many years, and they will probably continue to do so.
31:44Although we need to carry out betterness, we need to also live with them.
31:49So, that is the state of affairs today.
31:51Two points coming from what you are saying.
31:54First, you are linking in a way the terror attack to what General Munir said last week.
31:59You almost seem to believe that this is General Munir directing these terrorists,
32:04who targeted Hindus in this terror attack.
32:09So, it is General Munir's mindset now being transplanted in these terrorists. Am I correct?
32:16Yes, you are.
32:17Yes, you are.
32:18And General Munir also controls Pakistan, as we all know.
32:22So, he controls the ISI, and the ISI controls Lashkar-e Taiba and all other terrorist outfits.
32:30So, when he is sending an open message that Hindus are different to us,
32:35and so this time what you have seen is that people have tried to identify not as tourists but as Hindus,
32:43and then they have killed them.
32:46So, we come then to the question of the response.
32:49As we saw after Uri, there were surgical strikes.
32:52After Pulwama, we saw Balakot.
32:54But clearly, Pakistan does not seem to be deterred from sponsoring terror.
33:00So, given what we have done in the past, how do we now go up a seeming escalator ladder
33:07to, in a way, send out a stronger message to Islamabad, to Rawalpindi?
33:11Rajdeep, firstly, I have to emphasize that, as a nation, we have to make use of all options and instruments that are available with the state,
33:25which means political, economic, diplomatic, and military.
33:29So, we have to consider all those aspects when we are now thinking of taking action against Pakistan.
33:36But before that, let me also look at the protective measures.
33:41And those are, we have to investigate whether our unified command in JNK, is it functioning properly?
33:48Is it functioning effectively?
33:49Is it functioning effectively?
33:51Which means, what about the intelligence?
33:54Why we have not been able to gather any intelligence about these people who have come from across the border,
34:00or who are, there are some overground workers who have helped them?
34:04So, that is one.
34:06Second is deployment.
34:07Why have we not deployed adequate number of troops in these areas, when we know that this is the tourist season, and people will be going all over?
34:18Why only emphasis on Srinagar and Amanat Yatra, or when the VIPs go there?
34:23We should have also considered deployment of troops, or policemen, whatever, in these areas, which apparently did not happen.
34:32So, those are the protective measures which need to be investigated, which need to be assessed, and then effective measures have to be taken.
34:41That is the protective part of it.
34:43Now, I come to the offensive part, the deterrence part of it.
34:46We cannot just do once in a while action like balakot or surgical strike.
34:54Those have to be repeated whenever there is an action, whenever there is an activity from the other side,
35:00or whenever we consider that the red line has been crossed.
35:04We crossed the red line when the 26-11 incident took place, and I believe that today also we have crossed the red line.
35:11And therefore, some kind of a message, some kind of a strong, effective action has to be taken,
35:18whether it is against the Pakistani army establishment or jihadi elements and their infrastructure.
35:25Now, how we take it?
35:27Again, it is an all-inclusive activity in which we have to, army, navy, air force, and everybody else has to consider.
35:36It is not only army alone or navy alone or air force alone.
35:40You know, and this is what that is.
35:43So, what you are telling me is that this is a two-pronged approach in a way.
35:47One, fix accountability for lapses here on the ground in Jammu and Kashmir.
35:53And two, make sure that there is clear action, actionable, taken against Pakistan for the manner in which they continue to harbor terrorists.
36:07Am I correct? Am I interpreting you correctly?
36:09Yes, Rajdeep. Lapses, if they have occurred, people must be accountable for that.
36:16That is the protective part. And as far as the other part is concerned, you are right, all-inclusive approach to take some action against Pakistan perpetrators.
36:25But do you see, what would that, you know, the question, of course, arise as we've seen surgical strike, I repeat, surgical strikes took place, bala court took place.
36:35It hasn't deterred the Pakistani state. This is a state, as General Munir's statement made very clear, which is obsessed with the idea of in some way bleeding India.
36:44And trying to drive a wedge on this occasion between Hindus and Muslims in this country.
36:51So, therefore, you see, we are only trying to have some deterrent in place.
36:59And once, as I said earlier, just one reaction or two reactions like bala court and surgical strike, that is not good enough.
37:08Whenever something of this nature occurs, we should be quite prepared to launch our own offensive activity, proactive activity against Pakistani elements.
37:19And I think the time has now come for this. And mind you, even despite all that, you may not be able to eliminate cross-border terrorism.
37:29You will probably deter them, it might reduce, but I don't think you can totally eliminate that by taking these actions.
37:39And you're confident that our armed forces have enough strength and resilience to take on whatever challenge may be offered by the other side of the border. Am I correct?
37:50Yes. Armed forces are part of the state and our nation state has that capacity, has that capability to cause harm on the other side.
38:03Whenever this kind of a deterrent is required, action, deterrent action has to be taken.
38:09Right. So, proportionality, proportionate action to what we've seen in Pahlkam is necessary to send out a firm, unequivocal message to Pakistan.
38:18At the same time, lapses on the ground in Jammu and Kashmir need to be fixed.
38:24General Malik, for joining me and giving me your perspective, appreciate you joining me. Thank you so much.
38:32The military options that might exist, but the real key now is diplomacy.
38:37We've already seen, a little while ago, the government of India announcing a series of diplomatic measures against Pakistan.
38:43Will India's diplomatic strike work?
38:46Was it really, in the end, a glaring security and intelligence failure and Pahlkam that needs to be addressed?
38:52And who will be held accountable?
38:54And of course, how should India respond to Pakistan terror?
38:57Two special guests now joining me.
38:59Yashwarda Nazar is former Secretary of Security Special Director at the Intelligence Bureau.
39:04And Vivek Karju is former Secretary of Ministry of External Affairs.
39:08I appreciate both of you joining us.
39:09I want first, Mr. Karju, to you to respond to what you've just heard from the Ministry of External Affairs in terms of diplomatic measures being taken.
39:18No visas to Pakistani nationals, cancelling of the Indus Water Treaty, stop at Atari-Waga border.
39:27Do you believe these steps will work?
39:30Three points.
39:31First, the Indus Water Treaty being held in abeyance is unprecedented.
39:40Even during times of war, the IWT was not touched.
39:47I don't think it's going to have a practical manifestation immediately.
39:52But symbolically, it's important because water is an important issue for Pakistan.
39:57So it is a signal to the Pakistanis.
40:00Second, the doors are being shut on the Pakistanis, but not entirely.
40:06Because while the defence attaches have been removed, you will note that there was no mention that the weekly contact between the DGMOs has been suspended.
40:23I think that is a very, very crucial point.
40:28So that it is indicative that both sides, that the government of India wants some contact to be maintained between the army.
40:39Third, as far as visas are concerned, again, is part of closing the doors, the Atari border closing the doors.
40:49So this is the first step.
40:51I think the government needs to assuage public sentiment to some extent.
40:57So it is it has taken some of these steps.
41:01But that is not the real point.
41:03Just give me one second, Rajdeep.
41:05And that the point is that whenever there has in the two previous cases, when India judged attacks to be unacceptable, it took kinetic action, Uri Pulwama.
41:19So I think this attack has which should have been anticipated because the Pakistanis made made it abundantly clear after the Jafar Express attack, which they blamed India for through that India had provoked the BLA to to attack us.
41:38But at that stage, the Pakistanis were quite clear and I have written about this.
41:44So in this case, I think what we are trying to do is to do a holding action.
41:55But ultimately, because this is an unacceptable attack based on the past two precedents, I do not see how the public in India, public opinion in India will accept anything less than a kinetic action against the Pakistanis.
42:13The kind of kinetic action that the government will have to decide very, very carefully.
42:19But the precedents are there. And will the people be satisfied with what the foreign secretary announced today?
42:25Today, I can assure you, no.
42:29Okay, I'm going to come to the Balochistan point later because that's an interesting point.
42:33Has Pakistan retaliated for what they believe was Indian involvement in that train terror strike that the BLA pulled off in Balochistan?
42:43But Yashu Bhardhan Azad, you've worked carefully with intelligence in all of this while the focus is on India's diplomatic strike.
42:52It's on in some way assuaging public sentiment.
42:57There are questions about accountability, about intelligence failures.
43:00Should those be asked today or not?
43:04Well, you know, this is a regular exercise, intelligence failures, who was accountable.
43:09But right now, it's a make and break situation, Rajdeep, that is going to be held in a routine manner.
43:16Today, the question is, in one and a half days, we have been waffling about many things.
43:22I think clarity should be there in what should be done now.
43:26And I totally agree with you when you talk about the options straight away.
43:30Let me give you three straight options.
43:32Let me ask you, what is the benefit of ceasefire which we are having since 2021?
43:39It has helped the Pakistani troops to move about 70 to 80,000 on the Afghan border.
43:45It has helped them to commit savagery against the Balochis by diverting a large part of the army over there.
43:53It has given them tremendous respite to be able to train and send properly and arm all these Lashkar-e-Taiba coverts, whether you call them TRF or something.
44:06How is it benefiting us?
44:08In earlier on, whenever there were cross-border violations, the BSF used to pound their posts across the border.
44:15It is time to finish this kind of, you know, this exercise, this fraud only helping.
44:23That is number one.
44:24Number two, the cost should also be made very, very high in covert ways which we should push further.
44:31And number three, NIA after I am sure with the security grid we have, we will be able to catch these guys and then we should inform every world capital about their complicity and then do an official attack.
44:46This is a time when the entire world is with you, except perhaps Turkey or China, maybe you want an odd country.
44:53And if you don't attack now, take out those 12 or 13, you know, Lashkar-e-Taiba and JM hideouts openly.
45:01Tomorrow, I think we'll be in that position.
45:05Easier said than done, of course, that it is high risk.
45:09But you are saying that is a risk worth taking.
45:12Vivek Kaju, you know, you mentioned about your belief that this could have been a retaliation for what happened last month in Balochistan, the Pakistan army embarrassed and chafing at the bit.
45:25Do you believe, therefore, we should have been prepared for a message in a way that you are sending?
45:31There should have been a recognition that the Pakistan army would be up to mischief.
45:37Rajdeep, I entirely agree with what was said earlier that this is a time for national solidarity.
45:47This is not a time for exhuming either the recent or the remote past. We all have to stand as one.
45:54But since you've asked me this question, I wrote an article. It's on record.
45:59I saw it. Are you convinced that there is a link between what happened in Balochistan where the Pakistani army blamed India and what has now happened? Is that what you're saying?
46:11That is what I was afraid of. That is why I wrote that it is possible that in the foreseeable future, the Pakistanis would engineer or sponsor a terrorist attack against us.
46:24You've seen it. I also wrote in that article, as you would have noticed, that the government of India would have taken note of this.
46:32Our agencies would have taken note of it. And I made some suggestions of what we should do, including telling putting the Pakistanis on notice and putting up world capitals in informing world capitals that if there is an escalation that we have nothing to do with this BLA attack.
46:52But if there is an escalation from the Pakistan side, then it will be Pakistan's responsibility if the escalatory ladder is…
47:02No, but how far… But that comes, you know, here you've got Yashovardhan Azad saying we should be willing to go on an offensive. This is time for war in a way.
47:11Do you believe that that is possible? That's a realistic option between two nuclear neighbors?
47:16Look, this is always a dilemma. But I do believe that under what is called the nuclear overhang, there is space for action.
47:27The Pakistanis, on the other hand, they've always pressed the international community that it is much too dangerous for any kind of kinetic action because the escalatory ladder can be used or will be invoked.
47:46My point has always been that the first step on a escalatory ladder is a terrorist attack like the kind which took place in Pahlgaam yesterday.
47:58The world we have, unfortunately, after the Pahlgaam attack, while we announced the doctrine of preemption, we did not press that doctrine of preemption.
48:10We did not make the world aware that, listen, this is our doctrine now. I do believe that at the right time, today is the time for the nation to stand as one, to be behind the government, to be with them on whatever decision they take.
48:27And I do believe that Mr. Modi and the CCS will be left with no option but to take some form of kinetic action.
48:35And with that, the nation must stand firm. But at the right time, we've got to make our doctrines known to the world.
48:45That is how major powers and a responsible power like India, a country which is the fifth largest economy, as we often say, on the path to being the third largest economy behaves, conducts itself.
48:58Okay, can I get Yashavardhan Azad then to give a final word? Yashavardhan Azad, do you believe that these are risks worth taking, that this is a moment or should one, is this a move for a gradual escalatory spiral?
49:13Today, we've had a diplomatic strike, cancel the Indus Water Treaty, go up the escalatory ladder and see where it takes us. The Pakistanis are already denying any involvement.
49:22Rajdeep, the savagery, the savagery which has happened in Pahalgaam is reminiscent of the Islamist hardline terrorist actions by the ISIS.
49:34The ISIS and these terrorist outsuits will not understand your diplomatic parlays, will not understand your gradual calibrated response and things like that.
49:46It will appreciate a hard strike. You know, today, the country is absolutely pulverized after what happened in the Mumbai attacks.
49:56Since then, we have never seen a carnage like this. If you don't respond now, and you keep yourself, you know, fearing the so-called nuclear blackmail, which is, you know, always behind your head.
50:11Pakistan will always do it. Pakistan will always do it. But today is the time to strike. This is the way you can do it. Cut the ceasefire agreement. It doesn't help us in any way.
50:22Today, the world capitals are with you. This is an opportune time. And make it official and open. You know, rather not live with this kind of, you know, regular attacks, especially of this kind, in which the nation is attacking you and the international community.
50:40We'll have much more with you and other guests in the days ahead, looking at specifics of how India should respond. Clearly, a red line is being drawn in the sand with what has happened in Pahal Gaam.
50:53But Vivek Kaju and Yashu, thank you very much for sharing your wisdom with me here today.
50:59At the end of the day, for all the hope of a response that is proportionate, the real grief is that of the 28 innocent lives lost in one of the deadliest terror attacks in recent times.
51:14The stories they hope to bring back as tourists from Kashmir, the enjoyment of joy of being in the verdant meadows of Pahal Gaam are now shrouded in grief and silence.
51:25These are the stories of the victims of Pahal Gaam.
51:2928 Indian civilians on a vacation with their family to Kashmir, now return in coffins.
51:54Now return in coffins.
52:00Identified as Hindus, shot dead at point-blank range in Pakistan's sponsored radical Islamist terror attack.
52:10Among them, three newly married couples, now survived by young grieving widows.
52:2526-year-old Lieutenant Vinay Narwal, an Indian Navy officer, got married only a week back and was on honeymoon with his wife.
52:35Posted in Kuchy, he had joined the Navy just two years ago and was known among peers and superiors as a dedicated and promising officer.
52:56This heart-wrenching moment captured of his young widow sitting by Narwal's mortal remains has turned into a defining image of the Pahal Gaam carnage.
53:18Hemanchi now returns home with her husband in a coffin.
53:25Shubham Divedi got married in February and now his young widow heads home alone.
53:54with her husband's coffin.
53:57Playing cards at a hotel in Kashmir, soon these happy moments with the extended family turned to horror.
54:15Shubham was gunned down in front of his wife after terrorists identified him as a Hindu.
54:24Among the three dead from Karnataka was 47-year-old Manjunath Rao from Shimoga.
54:34Hours after enjoying a serene shikara ride on the Dal Lake, their visit to Pahal Gaam proved fatal.
54:49Manjunath's wife urged the terrorists to kill her too and in turn received a mocking response from the armed jihadists.
55:01She was being spared to tell the government about this massacre.
55:1028 dead, leaving behind widows and children who watched the men of their family targeted.
55:20A nightmare that India will never forget.
55:27India today.
55:36Truly saddening images there.
55:39My take.
55:40It is 24 hours now since the horrific massacre in Pahal Gaam that claimed at least 28 innocent lives.
55:49There is grief and yes there is understandable rage.
55:53This is a wake up call for all those who mistakenly thought that simply the removal of Article 370 had restored normalcy in the Kashmir Valley.
56:03Let's get this straight. Normalcy and cross border terror cannot coexist.
56:09Fact is, Pakistan sponsored Lashkar groups have got away with terror for too long with too few costs.
56:17The first step therefore must be to ensure that the foot soldiers and their patrons are brought to justice.
56:24How this is to be done is best left to our security agencies.
56:28This is not a time for political finger pointing but accountability for lapses must be eventually fixed.
56:35Ministerial resignations will not end the menace of cross border terror nor will high pitched rhetoric here in TV studios.
56:44What is needed is maturity not recklessness.
56:48It is very easy for me to call for revenge in a TV studio.
56:52What is more difficult is to ensure that Pakistan doesn't succeed in its attempt to drive a wedge between Hindus and Muslims amongst each and every one of us.
57:03Our strength of this great country of India is in our unity in Kashmir and beyond in every corner of India.
57:11The message therefore to a rogue and dysfunctional Pakistani army state must be loud and clear.
57:18India's resolve to fight terror will not weaken.
57:23This fight cannot be waged by directing our ire at Indian Muslims or indeed at Kashmiri brothers and sisters.
57:31All of whom are speaking out strongly today against terrorists.
57:36This fight is against a country whose army chief used the most obnoxious jingoistic language only a few days ago while claiming Hindus and Muslims cannot live together.
57:49Well General Munir India is proof of religious coexistence.
57:55Pakistan is an example of how shielding terrorists enfeebles and weakens a nation beyond repair.
58:03The blood of our countrymen in Pahal Gaam will not go in vain.
58:08Jai Hind Namaskar