Pentagon officials testify before the House Armed Services Committee about the Department of Defense's cyber posture.
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00:00:00First of all, thanks to the members that are with us.
00:00:01We had a change in schedule yesterday,
00:00:03so I appreciate those who stayed here
00:00:06to do this very important hearing.
00:00:08I want to say right up front,
00:00:09I respect both of our folks who are testifying today.
00:00:12I appreciate you both being here.
00:00:13I've gotten to know you both.
00:00:14I've known Ms. Bookout from when she was a colonel,
00:00:17and I've enjoyed getting to meet the general
00:00:19and appreciate the job you guys are doing.
00:00:21So good morning to everybody that's here
00:00:23and welcome to today's hearing
00:00:24on the Department of Defense's Cyber Warfare Enterprise.
00:00:27Since taking the gavel, many of you have heard me
00:00:29refer to this panel simply as the Cyber Subcommittee,
00:00:32because people know what that is.
00:00:34They're not too sure what a CITI is,
00:00:36but we know what a Cyber Committee is.
00:00:38This is not the reflection
00:00:38of our other core responsibilities,
00:00:40but rather that our oversight
00:00:41of the military's cyber warfare posture
00:00:43is the most operational mission
00:00:45under the subcommittee's jurisdiction.
00:00:48We're at war in the cyber domain,
00:00:50and just the last two years,
00:00:52the United States has been directly and deliberately attacked
00:00:55by the People's Republic of China
00:00:57and other nation states in the cyber domain,
00:00:59Volt Typhoon, Salt Typhoon, Flax Typhoon,
00:01:03and countless other cyber attacks have taken aim
00:01:06at US transportation, energy, water, telecommunications,
00:01:10and other critical infrastructure.
00:01:12It is time to stop talking about preparing for conflict,
00:01:15because we are already in one.
00:01:17I, for one, believe that it is now time
00:01:19that we start acting like it.
00:01:20However, recent actions by this administration
00:01:23raise some concerns for me and others on this committee,
00:01:26subcommittee, where they truly believe it.
00:01:29First is the issue of leadership.
00:01:31A few weeks ago, the Cyber Commander of US Cyber Command
00:01:33and Director of the NSA,
00:01:35the two most important cyber organizations
00:01:37of the United States government,
00:01:39was relieved from command without any explanation.
00:01:41Joe Hawk was the most cyber-experienced officer
00:01:43to ever hold this position.
00:01:45He was highly respected by his people and his peers
00:01:47and feared by our enemies.
00:01:49Removing him from the cyber battlefield in this way
00:01:51served absolutely no national security interest.
00:01:54All this did was help Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea
00:01:57to do what they could not do for themselves.
00:02:00And I don't ask our two folks today to talk about this.
00:02:02This is not on you.
00:02:04But when the Secretary of Defense
00:02:05comes to the Arms Services Committee,
00:02:07he will have to answer for this.
00:02:09Secondly, it's renewed speculation about the separation
00:02:12of the dual-hat relationship between Cyber Command and NSA,
00:02:15a construct that proves its value to our national security
00:02:18every minute of every day.
00:02:20This issue has been studied exhaustively,
00:02:22but somehow there are still those who believe they know better.
00:02:26I spoke to my colleagues on this panel
00:02:27and our friends in the Senate,
00:02:29and on a bipartisan and bicameral basis,
00:02:32the Arms Services Committees, plural,
00:02:34are strongly opposed to ending this dual-hat relationship.
00:02:38I want to take this opportunity to make very clear
00:02:39to the department's leadership
00:02:41that if they believe that they have allies on this issue
00:02:44who sit on the Pentagon's Congressional Oversight Panels,
00:02:46they do not.
00:02:47Third, I remain concerned about the state
00:02:49of our cyber training and readiness.
00:02:52General Hartman's statement noted
00:02:53that the service cyber components
00:02:55only recently attained foundational readiness standards.
00:02:58Foundational readiness has a very specific meaning,
00:03:01and the fact that it took us more than a dozen years
00:03:03to reach this point is not something to celebrate,
00:03:05though I'm glad we're here now.
00:03:07To succeed in the cyber domain,
00:03:08we need more, far more than foundational readiness,
00:03:11and I'm particularly interested in hearing from both of you
00:03:14what you need to create and sustain
00:03:15a high level of readiness across the cyber warfare enterprise.
00:03:19I believe a good starting point is to ensure
00:03:20the cyber readiness metrics reported to Congress
00:03:23are meaningful, accurate, and honest.
00:03:25As we discussed with your teams
00:03:27at the last Cyber Quarterly Brief,
00:03:29we don't request these numbers to hear good news,
00:03:31but to understand the ground truth
00:03:33and focus on our finite time and efforts
00:03:35and what we need to improve.
00:03:36I say all this because our adversaries
00:03:38are clearly not deterred from acting against us,
00:03:41and we're clearly not meeting our potential
00:03:43in developing the cyber capability, capacity,
00:03:45and posture that is commensurate with the threat.
00:03:49Over my last eight years on this committee,
00:03:50I've often heard how we are getting better.
00:03:52That may be true, but it's been 15 years,
00:03:54and we should be there by now.
00:03:56I ask both of you here today to help us chart a course
00:03:58to get us there quickly.
00:03:59With that, I want to introduce our witnesses,
00:04:01Miss Lori Buckhout and Lieutenant General Joe Hartman.
00:04:04Miss Buckhout and I actually served together
00:04:06when we were in the military just a few years ago,
00:04:09dealing with electronic warfare matters,
00:04:11and I'm excited to be working with her again
00:04:12in her present role, performing the duties
00:04:14of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Cyber Policy.
00:04:17Joe Hartman is the Acting Commander of the U.S. Cyber Command
00:04:19and I've appreciated the great job
00:04:21you've done stepping in, sir.
00:04:23I now turn to the Ranking Member and my friend,
00:04:25Ro Khanna, for his opening remarks,
00:04:27and then we'll hear from our witnesses.
00:04:29And I appreciate the spirit of both sides of the aisle
00:04:31on this.
00:04:32These issues are not Republican or Democrat.
00:04:33They're American issues, and we're working together
00:04:36for our country.
00:04:37With that, I yield to the Ranking Member.
00:04:38Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:04:40Thank you for your leadership.
00:04:42Let me reaffirm what you said
00:04:46about keeping our Cyber Command and NSA together.
00:04:51That is a bipartisan position.
00:04:53That is a position that we have discussed many times now,
00:04:59and people on this side of the aisle support you in that.
00:05:04It's bicameral, it's bipartisan,
00:05:07and I just want to make that clear
00:05:09because it keeps coming up.
00:05:10And I said, where is it coming from?
00:05:13Because the support in the Congress is very strong
00:05:16for keeping those two departments together.
00:05:22I also appreciate your candidness
00:05:25about the questions you raised on General Hawk's dismissal.
00:05:31General Hawk was an extraordinary public servant.
00:05:34He would often brief us and brief this committee.
00:05:38He had dedicated his entire life to the military
00:05:43and to public service.
00:05:44And we should have answers.
00:05:48We expect answers.
00:05:51I understand that the two witnesses here today
00:05:53aren't in a position to give those answers
00:05:56because they're not the ones
00:05:56who made the decision to dismiss him.
00:05:58But we need to hear from the Secretary of Defense
00:06:01why he was dismissed, what the rationale was,
00:06:04why have seven generals been dismissed.
00:06:08It's not a political matter.
00:06:09I mean, when you have people like you have here,
00:06:13Lieutenant General Hartman, who I met with yesterday,
00:06:16and Ms. Buckout, who've dedicated years to the country,
00:06:2115, 20, 30 years.
00:06:23You can't just fire them without explanation.
00:06:26I mean, that is not the way we treat people
00:06:29who dedicate their life in service to this country.
00:06:32So I appreciate, actually, Mr. Hartman, you're stepping up.
00:06:37I know it's not easy.
00:06:38You're answering the nation's call, and I appreciate it.
00:06:41And I appreciate, Ms. Buckout, you're willing to serve.
00:06:46You will have this committee's cooperation
00:06:49in helping you succeed in your roles,
00:06:50and I look forward to hearing your testimony.
00:06:55Who would like to start off?
00:06:58Ms. Buckout.
00:06:59Okay, I yield to you.
00:07:08The talk button.
00:07:09This is why he is the commander of Cyber Command.
00:07:14Chairman Bacon, Ranking Member Khanna,
00:07:15members of the committee,
00:07:17thank you for the invitation to be here today
00:07:19and discuss the Department of Defense cyber posture.
00:07:22It is an honor to share the stage
00:07:24with Lieutenant General Hartman.
00:07:25I cannot succeed without a strong partnership
00:07:28with the U.S. Cyber Command,
00:07:29and I value the strong, ongoing relationship
00:07:32between our organizations,
00:07:33one guided by the President's vision
00:07:35of peace through strength.
00:07:36I am deeply grateful for the opportunity
00:07:39to serve as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense,
00:07:41DASD, for cyber policy,
00:07:44and I'm currently performing the duties
00:07:46of the Assistant Secretary of Defense, ASD,
00:07:49for cyber policy.
00:07:51I come to this role after more than 40 years
00:07:53in communications, intelligence, and cyber.
00:07:56I am proud to once again be serving my country
00:07:58under Secretary Hagsath.
00:08:00Mr. Chairman, I look forward to working with you
00:08:02and the subcommittee to achieve your goals.
00:08:05The President has nominated Ms. Catherine Sutton
00:08:07to serve as the ASD for cyber policy,
00:08:10and I look forward to supporting her
00:08:12as a DASD for cyber policy,
00:08:14should she be confirmed.
00:08:16The United States faces a strategic environment
00:08:19of heightened complexity and risk.
00:08:21The environment is defined
00:08:22by the vulnerability of our homeland
00:08:24to the evolving capabilities of near-peer competition
00:08:27and other adversaries who pose alarming threats
00:08:31across both kinetic and non-kinetic spheres.
00:08:34Cyberspace, a domain essential for global connectivity,
00:08:38communications, and innovation,
00:08:40has also become a contested battle space.
00:08:43Of particular concern is the increasing willingness
00:08:45of adversaries to use cyber capabilities
00:08:48not only for espionage,
00:08:49but also to gain access and preposition
00:08:53for disruptive actions in cyberspace
00:08:55and to threaten critical infrastructure
00:08:57and services that underpin our society.
00:09:01The People's Republic of China
00:09:02poses an extensive cyber workforce
00:09:04and supporting ecosystem
00:09:06that contributes to the Chinese Communist Party's
00:09:09malicious cyber activities.
00:09:11Through activities like Volt and Salt Typhoon,
00:09:13PRC has shown themselves
00:09:15to be a dangerous risk to our homeland.
00:09:18The Secretary has defected DOD
00:09:20to prioritize resources
00:09:22towards the most lethal and effective capabilities
00:09:25required for the joint force
00:09:26to defend the homeland and deter China,
00:09:29and this is a strategic imperative
00:09:30in which cyberspace plays a foundational role.
00:09:34The Russian Federation continues to pose
00:09:36a significant cyber threat to the United States as well
00:09:39and to our allies and partners.
00:09:41Russia's cyber operations are often integrated
00:09:44with its broader geopolitical objectives,
00:09:46aiming to sow discord and project power on the global stage.
00:09:50The Kremlin views cyberspace as an essential tool
00:09:54for advancing its strategic aims
00:09:56and challenging United States national interests.
00:09:59Other threat actors,
00:10:00such as the Islamic Republic of Iran
00:10:02and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea,
00:10:05remain capable adversaries
00:10:07and malicious actors in cyberspace.
00:10:09For-profit criminals
00:10:11and transnational criminal organizations,
00:10:13which might be referred to later as TCOs,
00:10:16target U.S. critical infrastructure for ransomware
00:10:20and take advantage of the speed
00:10:21and anonymity of cryptocurrencies
00:10:23to hide and launder illicit gains.
00:10:26Within this complex and varied threat environment,
00:10:30the Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense
00:10:31for Cyber Policy provides guidance and oversight
00:10:34for DOD cyberspace activities,
00:10:37as well as the implementation of plans
00:10:39related to cyber forces, capabilities, and their employment.
00:10:44Invested with the authorities of the principal cyber advisor
00:10:47to the Secretary of Defense,
00:10:49the ASD for Cyber Policy is charged with oversight
00:10:53of U.S. Cyber Command's service-like responsibilities.
00:10:57Our strategic aims focus on Secretary Hegs' three priorities,
00:11:01homeland defense, lethality, war fighting.
00:11:05To that end, we are concentrating our efforts
00:11:07in three key areas,
00:11:09reestablishing deterrence and securing the homeland.
00:11:12Our foremost priority is to protect and defend
00:11:15the American homeland against aggression in cyberspace.
00:11:18We ensure our cyberspace operations forces
00:11:21have the resources, authorities,
00:11:22and strategic direction they need
00:11:25to contribute to deterrence that, if necessary,
00:11:27defend against and defeat cyber threats from abroad.
00:11:31Restoring the warrior ethos.
00:11:33Our people remain our most important asset in cyberspace.
00:11:37Recruiting, retaining, developing, and rewarding
00:11:40the highly skilled individuals
00:11:41on the front line of cyber operations is paramount.
00:11:45To maintain our advantage
00:11:46in the face of evolving cyber threats,
00:11:48we must prioritize recruiting, training, and retaining
00:11:52the most talented individuals
00:11:53to achieve mastery in the cyber domain.
00:11:57Rebuilding our military.
00:11:58We continue to evolve our capabilities
00:12:00against technologically sophisticated threats.
00:12:03In many cases, we can capitalize on advanced,
00:12:06lower-cost solutions from the private sector.
00:12:09DOD is enhancing its acquisition pathways
00:12:12to improve the ways we buy software,
00:12:14including through new partnerships
00:12:16with nontraditional suppliers.
00:12:19Ms. Bookout, are you near the end?
00:12:20Because we just had our five minutes.
00:12:21Oh, my goodness, yes, sir.
00:12:23In conclusion, I remain grateful for congressional support.
00:12:26This support is essential to mission success.
00:12:28We look forward to demonstrating the tangible outcomes
00:12:30of support for this posture review.
00:12:32We're deeply grateful for the support of Congress.
00:12:35Look forward to working with you in the future.
00:12:37Thank you so much.
00:12:39Yes, sir.
00:12:40General Hartman.
00:12:41Good morning, Chairman Baking, Ranking Member Khanna,
00:12:44distinguished members of the subcommittee.
00:12:46It's an honor to be here representing the men and women
00:12:49of United States Cyber Command.
00:12:51I appreciate the opportunity
00:12:53to testify alongside Ms. Bookout.
00:12:55I also want to acknowledge
00:12:56Chief Master Sergeant Kenneth Bruce,
00:12:59the CyberCom senior enlisted leader who's seated behind me.
00:13:03The role of a senior enlisted leader
00:13:05is critical to our mission accomplishment.
00:13:07Our senior enlisted leaders are committed
00:13:09to increasing readiness, focusing the force on lethality,
00:13:13and providing candid, professional counsel
00:13:16to their commanders on all matters impacting the force.
00:13:20Chief Bruce is the epitome of a senior enlisted leader.
00:13:23He represents our professional noncommissioned officer corps,
00:13:27our nation's proven advantage against our adversaries.
00:13:31I recognize Chief Bruce for more than just
00:13:33his exemplary service and leadership.
00:13:35His impact on the future cyber force is equally as important.
00:13:41Chief Bruce, alongside the dedicated men and women
00:13:43of United States Cyber Command,
00:13:45is instrumental in our operational success.
00:13:49Our people are our most valuable asset.
00:13:53The professionals at CyberCom are at the forefront,
00:13:56defending our networks and countering threats every day.
00:14:00Their innovation and perseverance are essential
00:14:02to maintaining our nation's advantage in cyberspace.
00:14:06Cyber Command's mission is straightforward.
00:14:09We defend the nation from cyber threats.
00:14:12We protect the Department of Defense's networks,
00:14:15and we support the joint force.
00:14:18We are dedicated to ensuring the department's
00:14:20mission advantage and providing options
00:14:22across the conflict continuum
00:14:25to the President and the Secretary.
00:14:28The Secretary of Defense has directed us
00:14:30to be more agile, responsive, and lethal.
00:14:33Achieving our assigned objectives requires a force
00:14:36equipped with a strong war ethos
00:14:38and the means to meet our national objectives.
00:14:41Deterrence is central to our strategy in cyberspace,
00:14:44and we are focused on maintaining a credible capability
00:14:47that dissuades adversaries from targeting
00:14:49our critical infrastructure.
00:14:51In 2024, we executed over 6,000 successful operations,
00:14:56roughly 25% more than in 2023,
00:14:59and we are on pace to surpass that number in 2025.
00:15:03Our operations continue to grow
00:15:05in scale, speed, and complexity.
00:15:09Through the service-like authorities granted by Congress,
00:15:11we are strengthening the Cyber Mission Force.
00:15:14CyberCom works with the services
00:15:15to manage our talent and improve retention.
00:15:18We have improved the quality of our training,
00:15:20providing new, challenging opportunities for our operators,
00:15:24and the authority to conduct the development
00:15:26and acquisition of cyber operation capabilities
00:15:29has an outsized impact on the Cyber Mission Force.
00:15:33Lastly, enhanced budget control streamlines a process
00:15:36that previously required months of staffing and coordination,
00:15:39empowering CyberCom to maintain our operational advantage
00:15:42in a dynamic environment.
00:15:44In fiscal year 24, CyberCom responsibly managed
00:15:48over $2.5 billion, tightening the alignment of authorities
00:15:52and accountability for cyberspace operations.
00:15:54These are all things we're doing now.
00:15:57With your support in Congress, we will continue to do more.
00:16:01True excellence requires a world-class workforce.
00:16:04CyberCom is collaborating throughout the department
00:16:06to develop, pilot, and implement tools
00:16:09such as artificial intelligence
00:16:11and other opportunities to invest in our workforce.
00:16:14A world-class workforce requires world-class training,
00:16:17facilities, and capabilities to excel and thrive.
00:16:22With leadership and assistance from Congress
00:16:24and the department, we are well-positioned
00:16:27to achieve world-class results.
00:16:29Our work is far from finished,
00:16:31but with your continued partnership,
00:16:32I'm confident we will succeed in defending our nation.
00:16:35CyberCom will rise to the challenge,
00:16:39outpacing our adversaries, securing our interests,
00:16:42and protecting our future.
00:16:44Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions today.
00:16:48Thank you, Joe Hartman.
00:16:48It's not lost on us that the other combatant commands
00:16:52are preparing for war every day, but CyberCommand,
00:16:55we are in cyber warfare every day as we speak.
00:16:58We're being attacked by China, Russia every day.
00:17:02Ms. Beckoff, my first question is to you.
00:17:03The current administration inherited the CyberComm 2.0
00:17:06effort. Can you share the latest updates
00:17:09about where CyberComm 2.0 effort stands,
00:17:12as well as any changes the administration
00:17:13may be considering? Thank you.
00:17:15Thank you, sir. We think that 2.0 was a great effort
00:17:20to improve our workforce management and retention.
00:17:24We have taken another relook and decided
00:17:26that we think it needs even more work.
00:17:28We consider cyberspace as importantly as you do.
00:17:32We really appreciate your continued emphasis
00:17:35on that matter.
00:17:36So we have decided to do a deeper look
00:17:39and make it a better product. Thank you.
00:17:42One follow-up question, and piggybacking on comments
00:17:45that Mike Waltz has made earlier,
00:17:46but something that I've also positioned out there.
00:17:50Are we looking at re-scoping our rules of engagement?
00:17:54I mean, we're being attacked every day,
00:17:57but we have more limited rules of engagement.
00:17:59What's your perspective on this?
00:18:01I know that the — I don't want to get ahead
00:18:03of the Secretary and the President,
00:18:05but I know that we're always relooking the better ways
00:18:08to counter our adversaries in cyberspace.
00:18:12And our challenge, of course, is keeping up policy
00:18:15with the pace of technology and the pace of our adversaries.
00:18:18I would say that we're always looking for better ways
00:18:21for our cyber forces to address the enemy across the globe.
00:18:25And I would defer to General Hartman
00:18:27if he has any additional comments to that.
00:18:31Chairman, thanks for the question.
00:18:34I would offer that on a daily basis,
00:18:36we are actively engaged with our adversary.
00:18:40As the adversary changes,
00:18:41we adjust our tactics, techniques, and procedures.
00:18:45I acknowledge that we need to get faster.
00:18:48We need to get better.
00:18:49There is certainly an authorities and policy piece
00:18:52that we will continue to engage with the administration
00:18:56and with Congress on.
00:18:57There is a capability piece that it's my job
00:19:00to continue to push and ensure that we are as capable
00:19:03and as lethal as possible.
00:19:06And I would welcome the opportunity
00:19:08in the closed session to discuss this with you more.
00:19:13I got a follow-up question for you, General Hartman.
00:19:16We were looking at all the general officers,
00:19:18all the services, trying to get a feel
00:19:19for just how much depth we have in the cyber career field.
00:19:23I really only spot one general officer
00:19:26that has extensive cyber experience
00:19:28before they became a general officer.
00:19:30So, our question, are we doing enough
00:19:31to develop our cyber leadership here?
00:19:34It seems like we're low on cyber,
00:19:36but we got a lot of depth in air,
00:19:38surface warfare, infantry, space.
00:19:42But in the cyber area, there seems to be a shortage.
00:19:46Chairman, thanks for your question.
00:19:48You know, experience takes a number of different things,
00:19:51right? There's education.
00:19:53I think across the services,
00:19:54we have done a good job of integrating cyber
00:19:58into the curriculum, you know,
00:20:00really from the basic level
00:20:01up through the general officer ranks.
00:20:04I attended a course called Pinnacle
00:20:06at the three-star level six weeks ago,
00:20:08and certainly a significant amount of our curriculum
00:20:13and discussion was about advanced capabilities
00:20:16like artificial intelligence
00:20:17and how does the department leverage that.
00:20:20I think we have done a good job
00:20:21at the general officer level.
00:20:22My deputy right now is a surface warfare officer
00:20:25in the United States Navy.
00:20:27My chief of staff is an infantry officer.
00:20:29But I do agree with you
00:20:30that we have to integrate officers
00:20:34into cyber organizations and cyber command
00:20:37at really every echelon of their career.
00:20:39And so, we build officers that not only have the experience
00:20:44that we need in order to lead in cyber,
00:20:46but also lead their organizations fully taking advantage
00:20:50of what cyber can offer them.
00:20:53One final question,
00:20:53what would you say is your top one or two priorities
00:20:56right now for cyber command?
00:20:59Chairman, our top priority remains talent management
00:21:03and ensuring that we can build mastery in the force,
00:21:07that mastery is required to defend the homeland,
00:21:10that mastery is required in order to outpace China,
00:21:14and we will remain laser-focused on that.
00:21:18With that, I yield to the ranking member.
00:21:20Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:21:22Ms. Buckhout, with some of the cuts
00:21:24at the State Department and USAID,
00:21:28which support our allies,
00:21:30what is the department doing to mitigate those shortfalls
00:21:35and what support do you need?
00:21:45I'm not aware of the particular cuts
00:21:47and their interface with DOD.
00:21:50I can say that in my job,
00:21:52I remain focused on ensuring that our cyber forces
00:21:56are ready to lean forward in any way possible
00:21:59and prepared to do so.
00:22:02And are you still working with allies in doing that?
00:22:06Yes, sir, absolutely.
00:22:07We are allies around the globe
00:22:09and we continue to work and strengthen our allies
00:22:13and their cybersecurity postures.
00:22:17Question for both of you.
00:22:19What is the current state of the workforce
00:22:22in terms of recruitment, retention, and readiness?
00:22:27I will start with that.
00:22:29That remains a focus at the Department of Defense,
00:22:31and of course, as a secretary as well,
00:22:33he understands the criticality of cyber forces.
00:22:37We understand them as critical to all operations
00:22:40and plans we have ongoing in the globe
00:22:43as technology advances and as our adversaries advance.
00:22:47For particulars of the workforce,
00:22:48I would defer to General Hartman.
00:22:54Ranking member, if I could first just comment
00:22:55on allies and partners, if that's okay.
00:22:59In the six weeks I've been in this acting position,
00:23:01I have met with 11 different counterparts
00:23:04from allied and partner nations
00:23:06to include all of our Five Eyes partners,
00:23:08the majority of our partners focused on the Arctic.
00:23:12I do believe we continue to have
00:23:14a very positive relationship
00:23:17and we'll continue to work constructively with them
00:23:19to counter the threats that we face together.
00:23:22From a workforce standpoint,
00:23:25we operate in a domain that was built
00:23:29by private organizations across the globe.
00:23:32The challenge and competition that we have
00:23:35for talent is significant,
00:23:38but we offer an opportunity to execute exquisite operations
00:23:44in support of national security
00:23:47that you simply don't get on the outside world.
00:23:50Our general assessments remain very positive.
00:23:55Our retention for really our key work roles
00:23:58and in cybercom, we always highlight
00:24:00that's interactive on-net operators,
00:24:03aka nation-state hackers.
00:24:05It's exploitation analysts, which are really
00:24:08those key members of a team
00:24:11that understand the networks that we're operating against.
00:24:15And it's really the people that write the code
00:24:18that we need to integrate into a platform
00:24:20in order to execute operations.
00:24:22Working with the services,
00:24:23we have been able to manage those key billets
00:24:27in a way that keeps them in the workforce
00:24:30and that generally has yielded very good retention results.
00:24:33But in order to be successful,
00:24:35we also require access to talent across the workforce.
00:24:39Think linguists, think intel analysts, think planners.
00:24:43And we've gotta do a better job working with the services
00:24:46to ensure that we can keep those experts
00:24:49in our formation for a longer period of time.
00:24:52I appreciate the answer.
00:24:54And how is the hiring freeze
00:24:55affecting our professionals here?
00:24:58I mean, do you think that it's hurting
00:25:00and would you recommend that we have an exemption
00:25:04for Cyber Command for the hiring freeze?
00:25:10Ranking member, certainly we are working with the department
00:25:15to address the impact of the hiring freeze.
00:25:18We're hiring a highly technical workforce,
00:25:22oftentimes with investments over a number of years
00:25:25in order to create the skill sets that we're looking for.
00:25:28So we are working with the department
00:25:30and we are hopeful that that freeze will be lifted soon.
00:25:34Ms. Baca, last question for you on the hiring freeze.
00:25:39Thank you, sir.
00:25:40We also have been examining that.
00:25:43We have a cyber-accepted workforce
00:25:46that we collaborate with on the DOD CIO.
00:25:50And we are working through options now
00:25:52to see how many folks we can bring in under that umbrella.
00:25:59Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:26:00Thank you, sir.
00:26:02Dr. McCormick, you are recognized.
00:26:06Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:26:07Thank you for both being here today
00:26:10and a busy Friday right before we get out of town.
00:26:15Lieutenant General, I appreciate you
00:26:16stopping by the office yesterday.
00:26:17We had a very candid conversation
00:26:19about Cyber 2.0 and its organization.
00:26:21One of the things that we mentioned,
00:26:23and you just kind of alluded to, Ms. Baca,
00:26:25that we're essentially moving on
00:26:28from the traditional Cyber 2.0.
00:26:30We're gonna revamp that, correct?
00:26:33Yes, sir, that is the plan.
00:26:35Okay.
00:26:36One of the things that confused me about our conversation
00:26:38on reflecting on it, we had a great conversation
00:26:42about three different ways we could do this
00:26:43as a single column, single command,
00:26:45kind of like we did with Space Force,
00:26:48either keeping it in silos like we do right now
00:26:50with the militaries or tucking it back under SOCOM.
00:26:54Is that correct, Lieutenant General?
00:26:58Congressman, our OPT that evaluated based on...
00:27:04I would ask the gentleman to not use acronyms
00:27:06because most people don't know what that means.
00:27:08Okay.
00:27:10Congressman, we had a requirement from Congress,
00:27:14NDA Section 1533, to analyze the force presentation model
00:27:20for the Cyber Force.
00:27:23We developed a operational planning team
00:27:26from CyberCom and across the Department of Defense
00:27:30in order to look at three models.
00:27:32So I gotta be concise here
00:27:33because I have three and a half minutes.
00:27:34Okay.
00:27:35Keep your, this is not our typical brief.
00:27:38We gotta be quick for me.
00:27:40So, Congressman, we analyzed three models,
00:27:42status quo, a SOCOM-like model,
00:27:46and the creation of a Cyber Force.
00:27:49Which one's your preference?
00:27:50Our preference was the SOCOM-like model.
00:27:53The problem I have with that one,
00:27:55and this goes to the point of what I was worried about,
00:28:00if we talk about what SOCOM is and the different services,
00:28:04the special operations capable people, the operations,
00:28:10there's a difference between operational command
00:28:13and tactical command, correct?
00:28:15Correct.
00:28:16Okay.
00:28:17I just wanted to make sure that when we talk about SOCOM,
00:28:19responsible for building a special operations forces,
00:28:22but geographical component commanders
00:28:24have operational command over them, correct?
00:28:27That's correct.
00:28:27Okay.
00:28:30This seems to fly in the face of what CyberCom
00:28:33would be both building the forces
00:28:34and employing them in that kind of model.
00:28:38Do you have something to say on that, Ms. Buckout?
00:28:40Okay.
00:28:41So the different services, the special operations,
00:28:43or SOF operations, are each unique
00:28:46and perform different missions like SEALs
00:28:48versus Joint Tactical Attack Controllers.
00:28:51You talk about CyberCom managing
00:28:53common training requirements,
00:28:55so that regardless of uniform,
00:28:56everyone is trained to operate as interchangeable, correct?
00:29:00That is correct.
00:29:01Okay.
00:29:04And am I incorrect to understand
00:29:05there's purposeful no-service specialization
00:29:08when you do that, is that correct?
00:29:10That is correct.
00:29:11Okay.
00:29:12So this is where I don't really understand
00:29:14because JSOC isn't a combatant command
00:29:17like CyberCom is, correct?
00:29:20That is correct, they are a subunified command.
00:29:22Okay.
00:29:23So it sounds good at first glance,
00:29:24but what worries me is that the command
00:29:27has been trying to incorporate this for 12 years,
00:29:30where you can't do both inside of SOCOM,
00:29:32or am I misunderstanding that?
00:29:35Congressman, just like SOCOM,
00:29:37we have components and we have subunified commands
00:29:40to include the Cyber National Mission Force
00:29:42and Joint Force Headquarters, similar to SOCOM.
00:29:46Okay.
00:29:46I guess I wonder if, Ms. Buck-Outton,
00:29:49you can weigh in on this any time you want,
00:29:50because I know this is a complex issue.
00:29:52We've been arguing this since I got here.
00:29:55We're going on two and a half years now.
00:29:56They were arguing it way before I ever got here.
00:29:58And I just want to make sure when we're recreating 2.0
00:30:00that we're moving at light speed, as fast as possible,
00:30:03without the get-ups of organizational cross-contamination,
00:30:08if that makes sense.
00:30:09When you talk about prepping somebody administrative
00:30:11versus deploying them tactically,
00:30:12usually it's done in separate commands,
00:30:14not in the same command.
00:30:15And that's what worries me,
00:30:16is that we're bumping up against this.
00:30:19The services want to have their own silos.
00:30:21We want to have a same command.
00:30:23We tuck it under SOCOM.
00:30:24It hampers us to do the mission correctly.
00:30:27And that's what I'm just really worried,
00:30:28that we put a lot of thought process into this
00:30:30before we jump on this next time,
00:30:32that we understand, we look before we leap.
00:30:35Does that sound reasonable?
00:30:38Yes, Congressman.
00:30:40That's too easy.
00:30:40Too easy.
00:30:41All right, well, thanks.
00:30:43As with that, I yield, Mr. Chair.
00:30:46Mr. Whitesides, you are recognized.
00:30:49Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:30:50I'm grateful to the two witnesses here
00:30:52and for the bipartisan leadership of this subcommittee.
00:30:54I would add my voice to their comments this morning.
00:30:57Today is May 16th,
00:30:58six weeks after the previous Cyber Command Commander
00:31:01was removed on April 3rd.
00:31:03Over those six weeks,
00:31:04Congress and the subcommittee have received no details
00:31:08from the Secretary of Defense or the White House
00:31:10about the reasons for his removal.
00:31:12This is utterly unacceptable
00:31:14and a sign of the cavalier lack of professionalism
00:31:17from this administration.
00:31:18Without explanation, it seems clear
00:31:20that the reason that our top general
00:31:22fighting cyber attacks was removed
00:31:24was because an extreme conspiracy theory
00:31:26with the ear of the president had it out for him.
00:31:29This is, to put it mildly, a crazy situation
00:31:32and highly dangerous given the extreme stakes of this domain.
00:31:35It puts our citizens at risk,
00:31:37it hurts the morale of the dedicated men and women
00:31:40of Cyber Command,
00:31:41and it hurts the national security of the United States.
00:31:44Now, to today's witnesses,
00:31:46thank you for being here this morning.
00:31:47I know the chaos that has been injected
00:31:49into U.S. cyber operations over the past months
00:31:51is not your fault,
00:31:52and I know that you are both doing your best
00:31:53in a challenging situation.
00:31:55With that said, there has indeed been chaos.
00:31:57We've seen orders that paused our cyber operations
00:32:00against one of our key global adversaries
00:32:02without any credible justification,
00:32:04and although I know that none of this
00:32:05can be laid at your doorstep,
00:32:07it nonetheless falls to this subcommittee
00:32:08to turn to you with our questions.
00:32:10Secretary Buckout, has the Department of Defense
00:32:13resumed planning for offensive operations
00:32:16against all U.S. near-peer competitors?
00:32:20Thank you for that question, Congressman.
00:32:22I'm afraid that I cannot discuss cyber operational matters
00:32:25in this open forum,
00:32:27but we remain committed to countering
00:32:30our global adversaries in cyberspace.
00:32:33Did the pause in offensive cyber operations against Russia,
00:32:37which was publicly disclosed,
00:32:38serve any specific operational purpose?
00:32:40I cannot confirm that pause, sir.
00:32:43Okay, General Hartman, in this time
00:32:45when our adversaries are putting untold resources
00:32:47towards recruiting talented cyber operators,
00:32:50it's important that we do everything we can
00:32:52to draw talented operators to government service,
00:32:55despite the myriad opportunities
00:32:57offered by our world-leading technology industry.
00:33:00Can you talk to us about specifically
00:33:03what new opportunities and employment structures
00:33:05Cyber Command and NSA now offer
00:33:07for recruiting and retaining our top talent,
00:33:10and how the agency is working to get the word out
00:33:12to recruit the best possible people?
00:33:16Congressman, we have a number of initiatives.
00:33:19I think from a technology standpoint,
00:33:21the one that's most worth mentioning
00:33:25is where we're going with artificial intelligence.
00:33:28We have an artificial intelligence roadmap,
00:33:31thanks to a requirement from Congress.
00:33:33We have an artificial intelligence task force
00:33:36that executes pilot programs
00:33:38across the full spectrum of our operations,
00:33:41and we partner very closely
00:33:43with the National Security Agency
00:33:45to ensure that we leverage
00:33:47the advanced technical capabilities
00:33:49that the agency has,
00:33:51in a way that makes the best use
00:33:53of the resources of the American taxpayers.
00:33:56Are we paying our folks enough
00:33:58to compete with the private sector?
00:34:01Congressman, we have made significant progress
00:34:04in our ability to provide incentive pay
00:34:07for both our military and our civilian workforce.
00:34:11I think it is adequate.
00:34:14We're never gonna attract and keep talent
00:34:17because of the money we pay them.
00:34:18We're gonna do so because of the mission
00:34:20and because of the culture and the organization
00:34:23that's laser-focused on defending the nation.
00:34:26I think I speak for the committee.
00:34:27We wanna make sure we help you
00:34:29get the best possible people,
00:34:30so if there are other ideas or structures,
00:34:33I think we're all ears on that.
00:34:35Thanks, Congressman.
00:34:36Last question, I hate to ask this,
00:34:38but Ms. Buckout, do you have Signal on your work phone?
00:34:46I do not.
00:34:47Yeah, why not?
00:34:50Because there are other means.
00:34:52It is a basically encrypted work phone,
00:34:55and I remain dedicated to ensuring
00:34:58our national security remains as secure as it can be.
00:35:01I have 41 years of a top-secret clearance
00:35:04with absolutely no security violations,
00:35:07and I remain committed to that.
00:35:09Thank you, ma'am.
00:35:10Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
00:35:13Thank you, Mr. Vindman, you are recognized.
00:35:16Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:35:17So, first of all, I wanna say that I completely agree
00:35:22with your opening statements, Mr. Chairman, this morning
00:35:26about how important the cyber mission is to this country
00:35:31and the fact, and echoing my colleague, Mr. Whitesides,
00:35:36that it is completely unacceptable
00:35:37that the commander of a combatant command
00:35:41would be fired solely at the request
00:35:47of a nut like Laura Loomer.
00:35:53That's unacceptable.
00:35:54It's disrespectful to the uniform
00:35:57and the decades of service that General Hawk
00:36:02and everybody in uniform puts in.
00:36:05So, the second thing I wanna talk about is
00:36:12this idea of restoring the warrior ethos.
00:36:16I think that is also tremendously disrespectful
00:36:20to Department of Defense and people that have served.
00:36:27The warrior ethos is part of what's ingrained
00:36:30throughout the career, and it's a headline.
00:36:34The remainder of the commentary is acceptable,
00:36:37but this idea that the American service member
00:36:40does not have the warrior ethos is, frankly,
00:36:43outrageous and unacceptable.
00:36:46And I wanna be on record for that,
00:36:49because I know this is a priority
00:36:51from the Secretary of Defense,
00:36:52and that's an issue I'll take up with him,
00:36:56but that verbiage is ridiculous.
00:37:00Let me kind of jump into the meat of the questions here.
00:37:04So, thank you for joining us, Ms. Buckout,
00:37:07and for your years of service.
00:37:09In your testimony, you spoke about the significance
00:37:12of the Russian cyber threat to the United States,
00:37:14our allies, and our partners, and I share your concerns.
00:37:18And I assume you agree that given the significance
00:37:20of the threat, we should keep all defensive
00:37:22and offensive cyber operations on the table
00:37:25as it relates to confronting the Russian threat.
00:37:30Thank you, Congressman.
00:37:31We do have a number of elements on the table now.
00:37:34As far as specificities, I would refer that, perhaps,
00:37:37to a different place to discuss, and to General Hartman.
00:37:40Okay, what I'm asking is that,
00:37:43as it relates to the Russian threat top line,
00:37:46that we should keep defensive
00:37:49and offensive cyber operations on the table.
00:37:51Is that in your role?
00:37:54I think we do so at this time,
00:37:55and to the specificities, I would refer to General Hartman.
00:37:59That's what I was looking for.
00:38:01And in early March, it was widely reported in the press,
00:38:03and this is a follow-up to the line of questioning
00:38:06that Mr. Whitesides was asking about,
00:38:08but there's a specific point here I want to get to.
00:38:10It was widely reported that Secretary Hegseth issued an order
00:38:14to Cyber Command to pause offensive cyber operations
00:38:17against Russia.
00:38:19On March 4th, the DOD Rapid Response Twitter account,
00:38:23so that's from DOD, denied that,
00:38:26stating that the Secretary neither canceled
00:38:28nor delayed any cyber operations directed
00:38:31against malicious Russian targets,
00:38:33and there has been no stand-down order whatsoever
00:38:35from that party.
00:38:37I'd like you to confirm
00:38:38that the Secretary did not issue any stand-down orders
00:38:42to Cyber Command, as it relates to Russian operations.
00:38:45I was not here at that time, but I'm not aware
00:38:47of any stand-down operations ordered at that time.
00:38:50Okay.
00:38:59Mr. Chairman, are we going to have a second round
00:39:00of questions?
00:39:03Yes. Okay.
00:39:05So, let me start, then, on this line.
00:39:06Mr. Vindman, if I could, I'm going to put you
00:39:08on pause for a second.
00:39:09I actually dug into this whole matter.
00:39:10I just want to address it.
00:39:12There was a one-day pause, which is typical for negotiations,
00:39:15and that's about as much as I can say.
00:39:16It was a one-day pause.
00:39:18Okay.
00:39:22Okay. Thank you for that clarification.
00:39:25All right.
00:39:25As it relates to cyber operations, as we know,
00:39:30and this is not an exhaustive list, but there is a,
00:39:33and so this will give you an opportunity to think about it,
00:39:35because-for the second round of questioning.
00:39:37But, you know, cyber attacks have objectives of attacking,
00:39:41damaging, destroying systems.
00:39:43But, you know, there are also aspects that are less-that are
00:39:47more pernicious and pervasive, and this is attacks related
00:39:52to deception and disinformation.
00:39:54And what I'm not seeing, and it seems to me as a result
00:39:57of ideology from this administration,
00:40:01is this idea of attacking disinformation
00:40:05from our adversaries around the world.
00:40:08And if we're not doing that,
00:40:10then we are leaving ourselves completely open
00:40:13to a major line of attack.
00:40:15And so I only have 13 seconds left.
00:40:18I'll let you ruminate on that and then come back
00:40:21to it during the second round.
00:40:25Thank you, Mr. Vindman.
00:40:26I ask unanimous consent that non-subcommittee members be
00:40:29allowed to participate in today's hearing.
00:40:32Is there any objection?
00:40:33With that, Ms. Elfroth, you are recognized.
00:40:36Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you for your grace
00:40:38in letting me join you today.
00:40:40So I am the very proud representative of the fence line
00:40:44of your home at Fort Meade and represent many of the men
00:40:46and women who work every day in cyber comm.
00:40:50So I'm going to try to focus my questions on them.
00:40:53I also want to echo my colleague's deep concern
00:40:56with the firing of General Hawk and the signal that that sends
00:40:58to our adversaries abroad.
00:41:00And I want to follow up on a few points made and dig
00:41:03in a little bit on personnel.
00:41:04General, I was really glad to hear you say
00:41:06that people are the most valuable asset of cyber comm.
00:41:10And I think this committee,
00:41:11just in the 37 minutes I've been here,
00:41:13would agree with that as well.
00:41:15Not just the hiring freeze, I want to dig into the impacts
00:41:18or potential impacts of the actions
00:41:20of DOJ on the personnel.
00:41:23I would be curious to hear from your perspective how many
00:41:26under your command took advantage of the fork
00:41:29in the road offer, how many probationary employees were
00:41:33separated from the agency.
00:41:35And I have a follow-up question to that,
00:41:37but I would love clarification from you first.
00:41:40Thanks for the question.
00:41:43From a percentage of the workforce,
00:41:46the target was 5 to 8 percent.
00:41:49And we will fall somewhere in the 5 to 8 percent category.
00:41:54No probationary employees were terminated as a result of this,
00:41:59unless it was for non-performance
00:42:01or disciplinary reasons.
00:42:02And to date, we haven't had any.
00:42:05Okay. So 5 percent still, I would argue that,
00:42:09as everybody has mentioned before,
00:42:11this is an incredibly important command.
00:42:14Five percent of that is going to be felt.
00:42:16Can you speak to how you're going to balance
00:42:18out being able to deliver while losing 5 percent
00:42:21of your workforce?
00:42:21Congressman, we have a deep and talented workforce.
00:42:27And we have junior leaders that will move up
00:42:29and assume those responsibilities.
00:42:32And it will be difficult.
00:42:33It will require leadership.
00:42:35But we know who's leaving.
00:42:38We've developed contingency plans.
00:42:41And it's my job to ensure that we execute those plans
00:42:45and continue to perform our mission.
00:42:47On the note of those who are leaving, I'm deeply concerned
00:42:50about the potential and unnecessary national security
00:42:54threats of disgruntled employees,
00:42:55especially if they are separated
00:42:57in the way General Hawk was,
00:42:58not to imply he would ever at all or anybody would.
00:43:00But I think it's an unnecessary national security risk
00:43:03to separate employees in any kind of disrespectful manner.
00:43:07Can you speak to what you are doing to ensure
00:43:09that everybody's treated with respect
00:43:11and that the information that they carry
00:43:14with them continues to be classified?
00:43:17So first, we terminated no one against her will
00:43:20at Cyber Command.
00:43:21So I'm not as concerned as a workforce
00:43:24that would have been terminated.
00:43:25Two, you know, the guidance I've given is that every person
00:43:30that has served their nation,
00:43:31the first thing we should say is thank you.
00:43:33And we should do everything we can
00:43:35to facilitate their transition and to help them be successful.
00:43:39I would also recommend to you that even the folks
00:43:43who separated willfully, willingly, in order for them
00:43:46to land successfully and continue to be able to keep food
00:43:49on their family's tables and roofs over their heads,
00:43:51has there been any discussion of helping them?
00:43:55I understand their resumes have to be,
00:43:57go through a clearance, some type of process.
00:44:01And that can take up to a number of months.
00:44:03That's deeply concerning for my constituents.
00:44:05Can you speak to how you're preparing for that?
00:44:07Congressman, I have visited that facility and I have worked
00:44:11with the team, and I will tell you they are doing just
00:44:14an enormous amount of work in order to clear the resumes
00:44:19in a way that allows personnel to go out and find employment.
00:44:23I do not believe that we will see any significant delay
00:44:27as it relates to what we have to do to enable the people
00:44:31that have served with us in order to go find a new job.
00:44:35So I'm hearing from you that you're committed to ensuring
00:44:39that that goes faster than a few months.
00:44:41Do you have any time frame of which your goal is
00:44:43to clear those resumes?
00:44:45I would be more than happy to take that for the record
00:44:48and provide you an answer.
00:44:49I don't have the exact number of days.
00:44:52Okay. I really appreciate that.
00:44:53It's a grave concern to me, Mr. Chair.
00:44:55So thank you.
00:44:55And then finally, I'll just make a statement
00:44:57that when we're talking about, obviously we talked
00:44:59about retention, but even recruitment,
00:45:02I think it's going to be really difficult for us as a nation
00:45:04to recruit the best and the brightest to this space.
00:45:07It was already incredibly difficult when they,
00:45:10to Mr. Whiteside's point,
00:45:11can make significantly more money in the private sector
00:45:13when we are treating our civilian employees
00:45:16with across the board with the disrespect that we're seeing
00:45:18from this administration, particularly here.
00:45:21I think everybody wants to see the best
00:45:23and the brightest young people want to go into public service.
00:45:26I'm grateful that you're committed
00:45:28to that mission as well.
00:45:29And it's just something I'll be focusing on.
00:45:31And Mr. Chair, I'll yield back.
00:45:33And I share your concerns, Ms. Offruth, on the reductions.
00:45:37I mean, I've served in the Pentagon.
00:45:39I get it that we, I think there could be reductions
00:45:41at the headquarters levels.
00:45:43And I think so some of that assumptions are, I share.
00:45:47But Cyber Command, we are in a daily cyber war
00:45:50with Russia and China.
00:45:51China can put multiple times more people on cyber
00:45:54than we can, being they're just five times bigger than we are.
00:45:58And so I'm an advocate for Cyber Command,
00:46:02making sure that we maintain the full capabilities
00:46:04and potential that we have there.
00:46:06I'm going to do a second round of questions.
00:46:07I'm going to recognize myself for another five minutes.
00:46:09And please let us know up here if you'd like to speak.
00:46:12We'll get you back in the queue.
00:46:13First of all, I want to ask both of you,
00:46:17I think we're doing a great job day-to-day cyber.
00:46:22I mean, but there's also a second part we've got
00:46:24to be thinking about.
00:46:25How do we support the other combatant commanders,
00:46:27the theater commanders?
00:46:29And there's been some reporting
00:46:30that there could be some improvement there.
00:46:32So could you both address that?
00:46:34How can we improve or is that an issue?
00:46:37Ms. Buckout.
00:46:38Thank you, Congressman.
00:46:39I'm very grateful you raised that question and grateful
00:46:42for your support on this.
00:46:44As part of my job to come in and review all policies,
00:46:48procedures, operations, and plans, I want to ensure
00:46:52that cyber is well integrated across them all.
00:46:56Additionally, my office is in the process
00:46:59of creating a new 2025 cyber strategy,
00:47:02which will also address ensuring that cyber is integrated
00:47:06in all appropriate ways in which we defend our country
00:47:09and approach the enemy.
00:47:11I think we'll be covering
00:47:13that down very adequately in the future.
00:47:16I'd like to piggyback a little bit
00:47:17on Dr. McCormick's comments earlier.
00:47:20I share the view that the SOCOM model, I believe, is the best,
00:47:23but there's some pros and cons.
00:47:25I think one of the things it takes
00:47:28to make the SOCOM model work is service buy-in.
00:47:30And that means they've got to recruit
00:47:32and they've got to provide trained people
00:47:34to the cyber command at a level that they need.
00:47:35But they've also got to develop cyber leaders
00:47:38within their promotion system and growing leadership.
00:47:41I guess an earlier question I had, I'm not sure
00:47:43that we're doing adequate there,
00:47:44but we've got to have full service buy-in
00:47:47to make this model work.
00:47:48And would you both be grateful if you comment on that thought?
00:47:57I would absolutely agree with you.
00:47:58I think the relationships
00:48:00with the services have been excellent,
00:48:01and they only continue to improve.
00:48:04As cyber continues to become more and more a way
00:48:08of life and certainly a way for our adversaries
00:48:11to attack the United States,
00:48:13the services see it as more critically important than ever.
00:48:17I'll let General Hartman discuss particulars
00:48:20of how the services are working within cyber command.
00:48:26Chairman, the services have done a good job
00:48:30of presenting forces to cyber comp.
00:48:32There have been challenges.
00:48:34We've worked through those challenges.
00:48:36Congress has helped with legislation.
00:48:38And we appreciate that.
00:48:40But our assessment is that there is a more efficient model
00:48:46in order to take a basic trained service member
00:48:49and create an expert trained service member
00:48:52that gets at the idea we call mastery.
00:48:54And so instead of trying to do that across all the services,
00:48:58we do believe there's an opportunity
00:49:01using cyber comp service-like authorities,
00:49:04cyber comp joint force trainer authorities,
00:49:06in order to build that mastery in the force.
00:49:09And we look forward to working with the services to do that.
00:49:12I think it's a very important point,
00:49:13but we'll try to help out there.
00:49:16Final question, I think recruiting cyber experts
00:49:19is a different than maybe recruiting
00:49:22an infantry person or an aviator.
00:49:24So what can we do to improve recruiting
00:49:27in this very important battle space?
00:49:35Thanks, Chairman.
00:49:36Look, we have made significant strides in recruiting
00:49:40on both the service and really
00:49:43the civilian side of the house.
00:49:44Our service numbers, while not perfect,
00:49:46are better than they've ever been.
00:49:48We transitioned from a service standpoint
00:49:50or a civilian standpoint to the Army
00:49:52as our combatant command support agency.
00:49:55And prior to some of the workforce shaping efforts
00:49:58we're going through right now,
00:50:00we'd seen a 45% decrease in the hiring timeline.
00:50:05We do believe we have a plan moving forward,
00:50:07and we look forward to working
00:50:09with the department to get after it.
00:50:12Mr. Conniff.
00:50:13Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:50:16You referenced General Hartman, the five I's,
00:50:20and we had talked yesterday when we met
00:50:23about not really having that much intelligence
00:50:27in South Asia with India and Pakistan.
00:50:30I saw Congressman McCormick left.
00:50:33He and I chaired the India caucus.
00:50:35Do you think it makes sense at some point
00:50:37to move beyond the five I's?
00:50:40I know we have the nine I's,
00:50:42and to look at countries like India
00:50:44for closer intelligence cooperation,
00:50:47particularly with China's challenge
00:50:50and what's going on in South Asia?
00:50:55Ranking member, I would really defer
00:50:58to the DNI and the administration
00:51:02on where we go from a policy standpoint,
00:51:04but I do want you to know on a daily basis
00:51:08we interact with a number of different partners,
00:51:10not just the five I's.
00:51:12And we look forward to interacting
00:51:14with any country around the globe
00:51:18where there is mutual benefit
00:51:20to both the United States and that partner,
00:51:21and I think we'll continue to work
00:51:23those bilateral relationships very aggressively.
00:51:27And is India one of those countries?
00:51:31Ranking member, I would welcome
00:51:33to discuss this further with you in the closed session.
00:51:41Mr. Chairman, in the interest of time,
00:51:43I don't have any questions.
00:51:45I yield back, thank you.
00:51:46Mr. Vindman, you're recognized.
00:51:47Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
00:51:48and thank you also for clarifying that point
00:51:51on the one-day pause.
00:51:52And so what I would like to do is obviously point out
00:51:55that that statement by DOD rapid response
00:51:58was an outright lie.
00:52:00It was at least misleading,
00:52:02and that is not what the American people deserve,
00:52:06and that'll be something that I intend to follow up with
00:52:10the Secretary when he actually shows up.
00:52:14On the point of disinformation,
00:52:17is countering disinformation
00:52:19part of the mission set of Cybercom?
00:52:23General Hartman. I will address,
00:52:24if I may, from the policy view first.
00:52:26We view cyberspace as part of a global IT information system,
00:52:33if you will, able to pass information.
00:52:36However, information operations
00:52:38is not the purview of my policy office.
00:52:41Okay, General Hartman.
00:52:44Congressman, Cybercom has never executed operations
00:52:51to counter disinformation,
00:52:53but we have and remain laser-focused
00:52:57on malicious cyber actors operating in foreign space
00:53:01that would support those operations.
00:53:05So our adversaries are daily attempting to influence us,
00:53:10and they're either attacking our systems
00:53:13or attempting to influence us.
00:53:15Military deception, obviously,
00:53:16is one of the key components to military operations.
00:53:21Would you disagree with any of that?
00:53:25No, Congressman. Okay.
00:53:27And so whose job is it to, if they're using cyber means
00:53:34to perpetrate disinformation,
00:53:37whose job is it to attack that or stop that?
00:53:41Congressman, we have and we will remain focused
00:53:46on foreign adversaries linked to foreign governments
00:53:52who are attempting to execute operations
00:53:55targeting the United States.
00:53:58And I would be happy to discuss more of this
00:54:01with you in the closed session.
00:54:02And we'll get into it in more detail in the closed session.
00:54:06Let me ask you this question, and this goes to both of you.
00:54:10Has there been a change to how the department
00:54:15and cybercom between the previous administration
00:54:19and the current administration respond
00:54:24or engage with disinformation in the cyber realm?
00:54:30From the point of OSD policy, again,
00:54:34that does not fall under my particular purview,
00:54:37and I would defer any particular actions
00:54:40on deferring disinformation from a cyber point of view
00:54:43where it's appropriate to General Hartman.
00:54:45But again, we may want to discuss
00:54:47that more in a closed session.
00:54:49Congressman, there's been no change in the guidance
00:54:54for us to target foreign actors.
00:54:57Again, we don't go after information.
00:55:02Okay. Well, this is probably part of a larger conversation,
00:55:06but again, if disinformation is a key mechanism
00:55:09that our adversaries are using in the cyber realm,
00:55:14it falls in the cyber realm
00:55:15because it comes through TikTok and Twitter and Facebook.
00:55:21And it's not necessarily changing ones and zeros
00:55:24in the digital space to mess with systems,
00:55:28but it is messing in a much more pernicious way
00:55:31with the way people think about things.
00:55:34It's an influence operation.
00:55:37It's not clear to me,
00:55:38and maybe this will be a response in the secure setting,
00:55:43but we're talking really high level.
00:55:45Who has purview of that mission
00:55:47and how are we countering that?
00:55:55We have policy organizations that engage in that.
00:56:00I would, again, refer to a closed session
00:56:02to discuss that further.
00:56:05Congressman, really nothing that I can add in this session.
00:56:09Okay. All right.
00:56:12Ms. Loughrath.
00:56:14Thank you again, Mr. Chair.
00:56:16I'm particularly concerned about the mental health support
00:56:19for service members under cybercom.
00:56:20These folks are basically functionally on deployment
00:56:25while they're right here stateside.
00:56:28I'm also concerned that Congress directed an evaluation
00:56:30of the occupational resiliency of our cyber operators
00:56:33and the report confirmed what we all suspected,
00:56:36that military services' organic resources
00:56:39are insufficient to meet the specific needs
00:56:41of this community.
00:56:42It's troubling that this issue appeared to go unaddressed
00:56:45until Congress intervened,
00:56:46and also concerning our reports from service members
00:56:49who encounter obstacles or stigma
00:56:51when they seek critical mental health care.
00:56:53So given these realities,
00:56:55how can we be assured that cybercom will give this issue
00:56:57the priority it deserves?
00:56:58What are you working on, General?
00:57:01Thanks for the question.
00:57:02So look, I acknowledge the report.
00:57:06I will tell you five years ago
00:57:08when I commanded the Cyber National Mission Force,
00:57:09we partnered very closely with the National Security Agency
00:57:13in order to leverage some of the occupational health
00:57:17specialists that they had.
00:57:18We'll continue to work that.
00:57:20We have this year hired the first psychologist at cybercom.
00:57:24We recommend it's a challenge.
00:57:26We will continue to work with Congress and the department
00:57:29to get the resources required
00:57:30in order to bring the professionals on.
00:57:33You and I are really in 100% agreement here.
00:57:36We acknowledge it's a problem
00:57:37and we're working to get after it.
00:57:39I appreciate that and the step
00:57:40that you took with the psychologist.
00:57:42If you could, for the record,
00:57:45give us maybe in writing your plan here.
00:57:48It's not a priority for me if it's not written down.
00:57:50So I would appreciate your thoughts there.
00:57:53I also want to move on to the Air Force
00:57:56recently announced the expansion of, again,
00:57:58Maryland Air National Guard's cyber mission
00:58:01transitioning the current unit into the 175th Cyber Wing.
00:58:04I understand that under its current structure,
00:58:06the 175th Cyberspace Operations Group
00:58:08has supported cybercom in cyber operations.
00:58:11Could you speak to how the establishment
00:58:12of the new cyber wing will benefit cybercom's mission?
00:58:17First of all, the Air National Guard teams are awesome.
00:58:21Okay, they have been integrated
00:58:23into the Cyber National Mission Force for the last 10 years
00:58:26and the nation derives significant benefit
00:58:29because of the work they do.
00:58:31We're excited about having additional capacity.
00:58:34So one, the ability to bring more Air National Guardsmen
00:58:38from Maryland into the mission space, we welcome that.
00:58:41Two, from a talent management standpoint,
00:58:44it provides another mechanism for us to transition
00:58:48active duty service members to the Air National Guard
00:58:51so that the United States can continue to utilize
00:58:54their unique skills and capabilities
00:58:57in order to support the mission.
00:58:58So I think there's a lot of opportunity there.
00:59:02I am aware of the facility that touches
00:59:04the almost fence line and we're excited
00:59:07about it moving forward.
00:59:08I appreciate that.
00:59:09And final question, as part of community engagement
00:59:13outside of the fort, cybercom has traditionally
00:59:17gone into high schools and tried to,
00:59:19we talked about recruitment and retention,
00:59:22tried to get young kids excited about coding.
00:59:25I understand that Secretary Hexoth has paused that program.
00:59:29I'm curious if you've given any thought
00:59:30to restarting it in the mission of long-term recruitment.
00:59:38We certainly welcome any opportunity to engage
00:59:41with young people in high schools and across America.
00:59:44And we'll continue to do that as aggressively
00:59:47as we can consistently.
00:59:51I'm not sure you answered my question.
00:59:53Could you commit to restarting that in the near future?
00:59:56We commit to restarting it as soon as we can,
01:00:00consistent with the department policies.
01:00:02Okay.
01:00:03I'll live with that answer.
01:00:04Thank you, Mr. Chair.
01:00:05I yield back.
01:00:06I want to thank both of you, Ms. Buckhout,
01:00:08General Hartman for your leadership.
01:00:10Thank you for your candor.
01:00:12Our desire is to make sure we give you the tools
01:00:15and the support you need to succeed
01:00:17in this very valuable mission.
01:00:18And I do, I'll say again,
01:00:19I appreciate your leadership and the hard work.
01:00:22With that, we'll adjourn.