Floy Quintos talks to Howie Severino about the role of art as an expression of dissent through the ages. As he tries to bridge a political divide with his latest work, “Reconciliation Dinner,” The playwright and theater luminary explains why he writes plays that reflect our current politics.
Also an expert on pre-colonial artifacts and culture, he explains why old cultural objects matter, why traditional fabrics reflect a wealth of information, and which tribal tattoos should not be worn, or appropriated, by people outside of the culture.
Also an expert on pre-colonial artifacts and culture, he explains why old cultural objects matter, why traditional fabrics reflect a wealth of information, and which tribal tattoos should not be worn, or appropriated, by people outside of the culture.
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00:00 [Philippine accent] Good day, podmates! How is Severino again?
00:03 Let me remind you that long attention spans are very useful.
00:08 We have a great Filipino guest, Floyd Quintos,
00:12 who is a theater artist.
00:15 He wrote "Reconciliation Dinner", "Kundiman Party", and many more.
00:20 Because of his interest in culture, he was called "Culture Polymath".
00:26 We'll discuss what that means.
00:29 Good day to you, Floyd!
00:31 Good day to you, Howie. Thank you for the invitation.
00:35 Yeah, congrats to all your works, Floyd.
00:37 But before I ask you about any recent work,
00:40 I just want to say that I heard an interview with you.
00:46 It was a recent interview.
00:47 You said that you started your playwriting career in high school.
00:51 But I distinctly remember sitting in the audience as a grade schooler
00:56 in Ateneo Grade School, Grade 7.
00:58 We were in the same batch.
01:00 And you mentioned your name in the credits.
01:03 So I have to make a slight correction in your own bio
01:07 as you're sharing it with others.
01:09 I think you started even earlier than high school.
01:12 Thank you very much.
01:13 Yes, I was written by Professor Sir Mariano Singson
01:21 with just one song and a few parts of the dialogue for the play,
01:25 I think, "Ibalon" or "Ang Mahiwagang Anino."
01:28 I was very happy that I was able to do that and print it in the program.
01:32 But you're right, I think that's where I started as a grade schooler.
01:37 Even though I had little participation.
01:40 That was very, very early.
01:42 Anyway, of course, you didn't continue your Atenista.
01:48 You went to UP High School.
01:50 Yes, UP College where you learned--
01:55 Mascom.
01:56 Yes, Mascom.
01:57 I was surprised that you didn't major in Fine Arts or Theater.
02:01 But in UP, you learned theater from some of the luminaries.
02:06 Ben Cervantes, Tony Mabesa, and you've done everything in production
02:12 that you mentioned.
02:14 I think you even had costumes made.
02:17 So you've said that theater people, based on your own experience,
02:23 theater people can run the nation.
02:26 Please elaborate.
02:28 Okay.
02:29 It's true because people think of theater as either acting or directing.
02:35 Because it's very visible.
02:36 They don't see the whole process that needs to be done
02:40 to become a good theater person.
02:42 I think I'm very lucky and members of my batch were also very lucky
02:46 that in UP, you went through all of that.
02:50 In fact, I remember Tony Mabesa saying, "If you want to be an artist,
02:54 you can't. You need to know how to make a costume.
02:57 You need to run a production.
02:59 You need to anticipate problems."
03:02 And that's why most of the best production people working today
03:07 in the entertainment industry, in the broadcast industry,
03:12 have theater backgrounds.
03:14 Because you learn how to be sincere, you learn how to be OC,
03:19 you learn how to anticipate problems.
03:23 And of course, production works on order.
03:27 It should be scheduled, right.
03:29 There's a plan A, plan B, plan C.
03:31 You learn all of that in theater.
03:33 And I noticed that a lot of my successful corporate friends,
03:37 those who have been in corporate,
03:39 my friend in Dulaan UP, my old friend,
03:42 they have a good foresight.
03:44 Okay, it's a bit bad because they're OC.
03:46 They can't get a job or go home.
03:49 But the sense of organization,
03:52 the sense of anticipation, the anticipated problem,
04:00 and you have a solution right away,
04:02 that's what I learned in the theater.
04:04 And then, the well-roundedness.
04:06 That's why I said that.
04:08 So, theatrical experience, even just in college,
04:13 will be able to help you in almost any career.
04:16 I think how it is the sense of organization.
04:20 That's why I said they can run a nation.
04:23 And I really saw that, the way some of my corporate friends
04:27 run their businesses, their small businesses,
04:29 or their big corporate businesses.
04:31 Okay, so you really got into theater at UP.
04:35 But one thing that surprised me, you mentioned earlier,
04:39 you're not a theater major, you majored in journalism.
04:43 Journalism.
04:44 Mascom, journalism, yes, at UP.
04:46 Why not theater?
04:48 Okay, my father said, "I know you have a heart for theater,
04:53 but please, study a trade."
04:56 Okay, I said.
04:57 And I was very interested also in journalism.
04:59 That's where I started in Dulaan, when I was in high school,
05:03 I did my summer job under my aunt, Melinda Quintos de Jesus.
05:08 She's also a journalist, let's say.
05:10 Yes, she gave me work as a proofreader for TV Times,
05:14 and then started assigning me articles.
05:16 So, I was happy to write in high school.
05:19 So, I thought it would be a good profession.
05:23 And one of the things I'm proudest of,
05:25 you also got this, Miss Jessica also got this,
05:28 is we learned from Louis Beltran.
05:31 From Professor Inglis.
05:33 I mean, from the stalwarts of journalism
05:36 and the stalwarts of good writing.
05:38 The economic--
05:39 Those professors at UP.
05:41 Because many people remember Louis Beltran as a columnist,
05:44 as a radio commentator.
05:46 But he also became dean at UP, right?
05:50 Yes, he became dean.
05:51 But one of the things I'm proudest of is that
05:53 during 101, 102, 103, I was with him.
05:57 Why did he become important?
05:58 Because it was so good that my mind expanded.
06:01 That helped me also in how to marketplace,
06:04 how to write publicity.
06:06 That was my first job.
06:07 But then, journalism, I thought, was really a good way
06:11 to pull out of theater
06:13 and look at the world from another point of view.
06:16 To learn a trade.
06:19 And the values of trade.
06:21 When I learned that you majored in journalism at UP,
06:25 it helped explain your interest in current affairs,
06:29 in society and politics.
06:31 You're very engaged with what's going on.
06:34 Of course, you've written about history as well.
06:37 But you somehow connect everything then
06:39 to what's going on in society.
06:41 So I want to now use that to jump off
06:45 to two of your more recent plays.
06:47 Both critical hits.
06:49 "Kundiman Party" and "Reconciliation Dinner."
06:52 Both very current.
06:54 "Kundiman Party" was slightly older
06:58 because it was about the Duterte era,
07:00 staged during the height of the Duterte administration
07:04 in 2019, I believe.
07:08 And then the more recent, "Reconciliation Dinner,"
07:12 which you also wrote about the 2022 election.
07:17 It's about two families that get together for dinner
07:22 after they were estranged by the election of 2022.
07:28 One family campaigned for Marcos
07:30 and one family campaigned for Rod Bredo.
07:33 But I saw the May version,
07:35 May 2023 version of "Reconciliation Dinner."
07:39 And this is the third time it's being staged.
07:41 And each time it's staged, you update the script.
07:46 You revise the script for "Reconciliation Dinner."
07:49 So first, Floyd, why did you write this play?
07:53 And why do you need to keep revising and updating it?
07:57 Number one, practical concern.
07:59 "Dulaang UP" needed a comeback after the pandemic.
08:03 "Sulatan mo naman kami ng madaling stage,
08:06 yung hindi masyadong mahal."
08:07 Okay, I always do that for "Dulaang UP."
08:10 But what I say, "Ano yung susulat ko?"
08:13 Napakahirap kasi nung pagbabalik ng teatro
08:17 pagkatapos ng pandemia,
08:19 tapos ang feeling ko,
08:20 hindi siya kumukonek sa audience.
08:22 Kasi a good play that we've always been taught,
08:26 a good play is something that elevates the material
08:29 into a metaphor, into...
08:31 But I like to be direct.
08:33 And I thought that after the elections,
08:34 we needed a direct reference to what was going on.
08:38 'Wag na natin i-sugarcoat
08:40 or i-do it through metaphor or for imagery.
08:43 Let's talk about what's going on now.
08:44 Let's talk about what we're feeling now."
08:46 And actually, cardinal rule yan sa mga playwrights
08:51 na even novelists or something.
08:53 You take it out. You take it out.
08:55 You elevate it.
08:56 But I didn't feel it needed to be elevated.
08:58 I thought the discussion was important enough
09:00 to write about it in the ways we are affected.
09:03 Using direct references, direct imagery,
09:07 direct happenings.
09:09 It's a touchstone.
09:10 I look at both plays, "Kondiman"
09:13 and especially "Reconciliation Dinner."
09:15 I don't know if they will ever be classics.
09:17 I don't think they will be.
09:19 But I look at them, Howie,
09:20 as snapshots of an important period of our lives.
09:23 Middle class sila.
09:25 Two friends na very close,
09:28 nagkahidwaan,
09:30 nagkabalikan dahil may personal crisis yung isa.
09:35 And then what happens in the dinner,
09:37 nung isang little incident lang na pak,
09:40 nagalit na naman silang lahat.
09:42 Ganun naman kasi tayo kabolatil,
09:44 yung feeling ko, Howie.
09:45 Ganun tayo kabolatil.
09:46 And it's very symptomatic of what we're going through now.
09:49 Even as people, as individuals,
09:52 we pretend everything is okay.
09:54 We pretend we can move on.
09:56 We pretend to put it aside.
09:58 But with one little kanti,
10:00 konting kantila,
10:01 babalik at babalik yan eh.
10:02 Napakasakit kasi sa atin yan.
10:04 We can go on pretending
10:05 and putting on the social mask of being polite
10:09 and just putting it aside.
10:11 Pero hindi maalis siya.
10:13 Obviously, this is a play about current politics.
10:19 Our current divide, our depolarization, etc.
10:23 which is of course still very intense,
10:26 still very current.
10:27 But ano yung mga binabago mo?
10:31 Are you taking things from the news
10:32 and inserting it into the play?
10:35 Okay.
10:36 In the first place, medyo mahirap yung how.
10:38 Number one, I would not say revised.
10:40 I would say tweaked.
10:41 Every version is tweaked.
10:42 Number two, it's very set yung time frame ng play.
10:48 At least for the second production in May,
10:52 I expanded the time frame
10:54 from the night of the Marcos burial
10:57 all the way to the first anniversary of the BBM win.
11:00 So that's a whole seven years.
11:02 For this version, I don't want to go beyond that
11:04 because that's, as I said, a snapshot of our times.
11:08 Kasi for me right now,
11:10 you're talking with my relationships with other people.
11:17 They're always saying,
11:19 one of the key sentiments now is,
11:21 "Nandiyan na yan. Tangapin niyo na lang."
11:24 And let's just all do the best,
11:26 which is safe, which is very sound.
11:28 It's very sound. It's very practical.
11:31 And that is a line that Bert says many times,
11:34 "Alam mo, tangapin niyo na lang."
11:36 I mean, what does this do?
11:37 What does all this discussion do?
11:38 Just accept it and let's try to work.
11:40 We all love the Philippines. Mahal na man natin.
11:42 Without doubt.
11:44 And to which one of the counterthought is what Norby,
11:51 again, who represents the very young,
11:53 very polarized LGBTQIA,
11:56 and he says, "For as long as it takes to remember,
11:59 I will not forget."
12:01 That's the quandary we are now.
12:03 Everything seems to be on the surface,
12:06 how everything seems to be status quo.
12:08 Biden has accepted BBM.
12:10 Nothing's wrong.
12:11 But is it really?
12:13 So what do we need to do as a concerned citizenry?
12:16 It's not to forget.
12:17 Not to forget this passion that we have.
12:20 Not to forget.
12:21 That's all we can do now.
12:23 And the play ends, the ending of the play,
12:25 which is that slap on Bert's face,
12:28 that I've expanded.
12:30 That I've expanded.
12:31 And at the risk of giving it all away,
12:33 Bert says to the original line that Bert says to Dina is,
12:38 "Alam mo yung mga pinklawan,"
12:40 while he's wiping his face of the ice cream,
12:42 of the cake,
12:43 "Alam mo yung mga pinklawan na yan talagang tikon.
12:45 Wala naman laman yung barila."
12:47 And then I added a line which is very important.
12:50 "Alam mo, makakalimot din sila.
12:53 Give it a few more months, they'll forget.
12:55 And everything will be back to norm."
12:58 And then Dina just slaps him across the face
13:01 and then embraces him again.
13:02 So I think that that whole line is exactly where we are now.
13:06 Brief as it is, it's exactly where we are now.
13:09 The edge of forgetting.
13:12 The edge of saying, "Sige na nga, tanggapin na natin."
13:15 Okay, tanggap.
13:16 And as one of the other characters says,
13:17 as the character of Frances Mackel says,
13:20 "Oo, natanggap na namin."
13:22 But again, "Dadalhin namin 'to."
13:25 So that's where we are.
13:27 Good point.
13:28 Kasi even if you accept something,
13:31 does it mean you can't remember it and learn from it?
13:34 Yes, to memorialize.
13:35 Yan din ang sense.
13:36 When I talk to my friends who have different political leanings,
13:40 "Bakit pa ba? Ay, Diyos ko, ayan na, oo.
13:43 Wala na tayo makitang ka-bindi-bindi."
13:46 Prices are going up, but they've always been going up.
13:49 'Di ba, ang daming ways to justify things,
13:52 which are a way of leading us to forget.
13:55 And that's the point of this last staging of reconciliation, Dina.
13:58 Not to forget.
14:00 You tried to humanize both sides.
14:03 Kasi sometimes one side tries to dehumanize the other side,
14:09 dahil magka-away nga.
14:11 Especially this past election was quite polarizing.
14:16 But you humanized the pro-Marcos family
14:21 and the pro-Roberto family.
14:25 But the audience was obviously partisan
14:28 on the applause lines and sometimes the cheering.
14:34 Obviously, ganun yung audience,
14:37 at least during the night I was there.
14:40 And then, sabi mo nga, minsan nagiging echo chamber
14:44 yung mga productions mo.
14:47 It attracts only a particular kind of audience.
14:50 But does that disappoint you?
14:53 Kasi, yun nga, this is about reconciliation.
14:56 You're trying to get people together.
14:59 And theater is meant to gather people
15:02 so that they're able to reflect on their foibles,
15:07 and why they're fighting, etc.
15:09 Pero kung it's only one type of audience attending,
15:13 I mean, I'm wondering how you feel about that.
15:16 Okay, thank you.
15:17 Napakahalagan yung question na yun.
15:19 Kasi may mga friends ako who came to the show,
15:24 tapos paglabas nila, sabi na sakit,
15:26 "Akala ko naman titibahin mo pulahan lang,
15:28 bakit naman mas masakit siya sa dilawan?"
15:31 Totoo, sabi ko.
15:32 Because being of the same political ideology,
15:35 I see the flaws.
15:36 I see how closed we are.
15:38 I see how reactionary we can be.
15:43 And I also see the division within us
15:46 between the more radical young people,
15:48 the more radical young supporters of Roberto,
15:50 who are willing to take to the streets again.
15:53 The character represented by the character of Norby.
15:56 And the older dilawan set who was the civil society.
16:00 There's a very telling line in the play.
16:03 Civil society is dead.
16:04 Kailangan ngayon barubalan society.
16:07 And again, I think that reflects an important shift, schism,
16:13 in what we're going through.
16:14 Now, am I disappointed that, number one, Howie,
16:18 ang daming, I have pulahan friends who've come to watch the play.
16:21 And paglabas nila, tawa din sila na tawa.
16:23 And sabi nga yung isang friend ko, pardon my language,
16:26 sapul, sapul sa both sides.
16:28 So, small victories like that, I'm happy about.
16:31 Another point, may isang kaibigan nag nagsabi sakin,
16:35 "Hala mo bakit mo yung Kundiman Party at yung reconciliation dito?"
16:39 Napaka middle class naman ang point of view.
16:41 Totoo naman eh.
16:43 Who has been most affected by the Duterte years?
16:47 Whose morals?
16:48 Who is in a moral quandary?
16:49 It's the middle class, Howie.
16:51 It's what we once called civil society, the middle class,
16:54 which is now slowly disintegrating.
16:57 Who supports Philippine theater?
16:59 I mean, original material of Philippine theater,
17:01 it's the middle class.
17:03 The class, the CD, will not watch theater.
17:07 The higher classes, they won't watch theater.
17:09 They'll spend their money on K-pop or on whoever.
17:13 It's the middle class that's really watching.
17:15 That's my audience.
17:16 That's why I always say, "I will write for that class of people."
17:20 Kasi number one, sila nagbabayad ng 800, 1000.
17:26 Sila nagbabayad niyan.
17:27 Sila ang pumupunta.
17:28 Sila ang aware sa mga nangyayari sa local theater.
17:32 Now, am I disappointed that I'm attracting only what used to be called the Dilawan?
17:39 I wouldn't look at it that way.
17:41 I would look at it as am I talking to the last vestiges of a civil society
17:47 that can once again make a change if they wanted to.
17:51 That's what I'm looking at.
17:53 I've always said, Howie, that in my work,
17:55 I've never been attracted to the idea of numbers.
17:58 Kasi right now, we live in a numbers-oriented generation.
18:01 How many hits, how many audiences, how many running, doesn't matter to me.
18:05 Never bothered me.
18:06 I've always wanted to say, "How many people are genuinely still affected?"
18:11 That's important to me.
18:13 Well, you align yourself politically with much of your audience,
18:17 but you say you lovingly mock them, itong mga tita na kilala mong nasa echo chamber nga.
18:24 Especially doon sa kundiman party, yung mga ritual, mga habits na middle class na yan.
18:32 Mga mayaman, actually.
18:34 Pag sinabi mo middle class, these are maybe university professors, etc.
18:38 But some of your characters have actually been aristocratic, 'di ba?
18:43 Doon sa kundiman party nga, ano eh?
18:47 They were singers, opera singers, and very...
18:53 Gumagamit sila ng traditional na sining, traditional art na kundiman.
19:00 What was really interesting about it then was it bridged this kundiman tradition
19:09 with the social media age.
19:11 And then everyone got riled up about the issue of that time,
19:19 yung horror of the drug war killings.
19:22 If you look at it, kasi, pag talagang pinaril mo yung kundiman,
19:26 supposedly, love, love, love lang yan.
19:29 But really, the Constancia de Guzman, Jose Batute, they were writing about a bigger thing.
19:34 You have to put the kundiman in context of the early American occupation
19:38 where you could not say these things.
19:40 Instead, by using love, love for a woman, as a metaphor for love for nationhood,
19:50 yung pinagkakaitang oo is actually pinagkakaitang freedom.
19:56 And then I tried to use the kundiman to reflect also what was happening in the country at the time.
20:05 Mutianang Pasig became a song about the defense of the West Philippine Sea.
20:11 Nasaan Ka Irog became mourning for lost loved ones who had been lost to the drug war.
20:17 Alam mo, Howie, kasi kasalanan natin, lagi natin sinasabi, "Tapos na yan, finish na yan, that's over."
20:23 That's an old art form.
20:25 Kaya napaka-ruthless tayo bilang tao.
20:28 I hate to bring this up, but you look at Korea.
20:31 You look at the way they have referenced their history in their telenovelas,
20:35 their food, their culture.
20:38 It's napaka-strong.
20:39 Tayo meron kasi talaga, ay luma na kasi yan.
20:44 So, ayun, that was one of the things I wanted to do also in the kundiman party,
20:48 is to show that in order for us to resist and to resist well,
20:54 dapat i-acknowledge din natin yung pinagdaanan natin, yung forms of resistance.
21:00 Kung ngayon social media, dati meron tayong kundiman.
21:04 Ngayon, napag-itwa nga na kundiman traditionally, especially during that period, were a form of resistance.
21:13 It was a way for people to express resistance without being overt, without taking up arms.
21:19 It was a way for people to assert what they were really feeling without being too obvious about it.
21:26 Anyway, so in-update mo nga yung concept ng kundiman, and you actually made this play,
21:32 which was interpreted by many as a protest.
21:38 It was a protest against what was happening at that time.
21:41 Ang daming pinapatay dito sa drug war.
21:45 There was a lot of horror, and then you put this on the stage.
21:50 And someone asked you, "Was this play seditious?"
21:55 And asking you to self-incriminate.
21:57 But ang sagot mo, the play isn't seditious.
22:01 It doesn't call for the downfall of this administration,
22:04 but it does call for a change in the way we perceive struggle and our part in it.
22:09 Art has never led to a major revolution.
22:12 Art cannot do that. That's not the purpose of art.
22:14 Propaganda, maybe. Art is only there to help an audience process a moment in time.
22:20 Nung binabaso ko ito, naisip ko, "Floyd's a student of history."
22:25 Parang art has never led to a major revolution.
22:28 Wasn't Jose Rizal an artist? He was a novelist, he was a poet, he was a visual artist, etc.
22:34 Bonifacio himself was a theater actor.
22:37 Yes, he was a theater actor.
22:39 Macario Sakai also was in Moromoro.
22:42 And they were using that to do the same thing that others were doing through the kundiman,
22:47 was expressing what was in their heart without being too obvious about it with the authorities, etc.
22:53 So, itong denial about being seditious and saying that art has never led to a major revolution.
22:59 Now that the Duterte era is over, do you want to revisit that statement?
23:04 Okay, yes, I do. And I am not changed at all about it.
23:10 Art will awaken. It will help you reflect.
23:13 But it's not going to hold the knife for you. It's not going to hold the bolo for you.
23:17 It's not going to tear the cedula.
23:19 It awakens things in us that make us actually want to do things.
23:23 But to actually lead it, it takes much more.
23:26 That's what I'm trying to say, Howie. It takes much more to lead a revolution.
23:30 It takes much more than just enlightenment, art, catharsis.
23:35 It takes so much more.
23:36 And though friends in the struggle whom I am close to have said the same thing,
23:46 that even if you open people's eyes and make them feel,
23:51 it's still not a revolution. It's still not a rise.
23:54 It's different. That's the difficult part of it.
23:58 And that's the part we are perhaps afraid of.
24:01 And personally, I will say, "That's what I'm afraid of. I cannot do that. I cannot."
24:07 But I can create, help create. I will not take the sole responsibility for that.
24:14 There's directors, there's actors in the theater who put your vision forward.
24:18 Let me tell you a very interesting thing, Howie.
24:21 The one who produced the second run of "Circuit" in May,
24:29 and the one who is producing the third run in PETA,
24:33 is Stella Keniete-Mendoza, who plays Dina.
24:39 She put together everything. She sold it to us.
24:43 Why? I said, "Stella, you don't have to do this because I can't do this now.
24:48 I'm busy with other things also."
24:50 No, she says, "And all the actors agreed. We want to do this because we feel it's important."
24:55 So they sell the shows to others who are like-minded and who have to sell tickets.
25:03 They sell it to show buyers who strongly believe in what the play is saying.
25:11 That is their form of activism.
25:13 I mean, this is not a joke. I keep telling Stella,
25:16 "Stella, you know what you're doing is not a joke.
25:18 I mean, don't pay me. Don't pay me. Use the money for the production."
25:23 Because that's their advocacy.
25:25 That's their way of saying that we believe in the material.
25:30 And that, for me, that is when art crosses over into trying to actively do something.
25:37 And that's why I will always say it's not my work.
25:40 It's really the work of Dexter Santos also.
25:43 It's the work of the actors who are so committed and who take to my rewrites.
25:47 Even I, when I watch a rehearsal, I'll add this and that.
25:51 And yet, they go into it with such love and gusto.
25:55 So, there.
25:57 Yeah. So, we saw all the efforts that have gone into productions like that.
26:04 Political productions.
26:06 So, there are these various media.
26:10 There's theater. There are movies.
26:12 Yeah.
26:13 There's journalism that have tackled these issues, these burning issues about injustice.
26:23 And just the horrors of what's happening today.
26:27 And yet, sometimes, I feel like it's for naught.
26:33 Because you see how the public has responded to how it's behaving politically, basically.
26:41 Why are all these seemingly powerful media, it seems like there's no impact.
26:47 Okay. Yes, I will agree.
26:50 But that's because we choose to play the numbers game.
26:54 Really, there's no impact there.
26:56 You put that aside from K-pop. You put that aside from what trend is happening now.
27:01 Of course, clearly, by any given measure, it's a loss.
27:07 But at the same time, what I think these efforts, futile as they may seem, what these efforts continue to do is to build a voice.
27:20 To build a conscience, an artistic and cultural conscience that will be there.
27:25 That will persevere.
27:27 Okay.
27:28 Again, it's the whole question of can we lead a revolution?
27:32 Right now, in the current culture, can we change minds?
27:35 Can we capture hearts and minds?
27:37 Little by little, yes.
27:39 But we need to persevere.
27:41 And you see that a lot.
27:42 Actually, you see that in the counterculture movements.
27:49 The indie film, which is counterculture to mainstream broadcast and film.
27:53 You see it in the works of the young BLF, Virgin Lampest writers, which is contrast to the bigger, the glossier Broadway productions.
28:03 And that's the whole purpose.
28:06 That's the way it was during the time of Jean Cocteau and Simone de Beauvoir in Paris.
28:12 That's the way it was during the time of Henry Miller in Broadway.
28:15 We, in the Philippines right now, we're just echoing that whole current of dissent and resistance and alternative thinking,
28:24 which has happened since time immemorial in the arts scene.
28:29 That's really our role.
28:31 That's why I say, if we can just rid ourselves of the burden of popularity.
28:40 Rid yourself of that burden of popularity and just do the good work.
28:46 Because if you burden yourself with, "I'm not being seen by 7 million people," you really can't.
28:53 Because in order to get 7 million hits, you have to do the most ridiculous things.
29:00 I mean, we can't do that.
29:02 You have to do the most trivial things.
29:04 A lot of people are brilliant at doing that.
29:06 A lot of people just don't want to do that and would rather concentrate on the craft.
29:10 That's why -- sorry -- that's why we went to school.
29:13 That's why we studied.
29:14 That's why we're fortunate enough to have studied under Louis Beltran, Tony Mabesa, Ben Cervantes, Anton Juan.
29:20 That's the edge.
29:22 Let's use it in a way that puts it out there.
29:26 I always say like this, what do we do as artists?
29:30 If we do bad art, no one's going to die.
29:33 Unlike architecture, if you design a bad building, people will die.
29:38 If you have a bad doctor, people will die.
29:40 No one will die because of bad art.
29:43 No one will die because of a bad production.
29:45 No one will die because of a bad painting.
29:47 But good work done correctly, done with the right spirit and the right intention, that will move two or three young people.
29:55 And that's what I live for in my productions.
29:59 When young people come up to me and -- okay, good.
30:03 Let's keep in touch.
30:04 And then they'll -- sir, can we do this play?
30:07 Yes, by all means, do my plays in your school.
30:09 Oh, let's go -- I'll try.
30:11 Little by little, you're building a future of young artists who will think alike, criticize alike, create alike.
30:22 And as long as that's there, as long as that's there in the undercurrent of our culture, then we've done our jobs.
30:30 Again, let me bring up something.
30:32 Here lies "Love," the big Broadway musical now that's on all Filipino cast.
30:37 And then, of course, they're doing it in a disco setting.
30:41 I haven't seen the production, but I have friends there.
30:43 And right now, but if you read, there are a lot of people who say, wonderful, distinctive staging.
30:50 You turned the theater into a disco.
30:52 But there are voices that say -- that talk about appropriation of material, about trivialization of issues which still affect us as Filipinos.
31:01 There, there's that.
31:03 Right?
31:04 So there.
31:06 As long as we -- theater can be popular.
31:10 We can aim to be extremely popular and extremely hip and extremely -- hip is the word.
31:17 But at the same time, we still need to, I think, acknowledge the fact that there are struggles that belong to people, to people to tell.
31:26 There are struggles which affect us to this day.
31:29 There are issues which can be -- which we in the Philippines still take seriously, but which may have been trivialized because of the production method.
31:40 >> Yeah, okay, now that you mentioned "Here Lies Love," that's much talked about.
31:45 It's controversial.
31:47 I mean, just for background of our listeners, "Here Lies Love" is about Imelda's disco days during the first Marcos administration in the 1960s and '70s.
31:57 Up to the 1980s, Imelda was still doing disco in Malacañang and New York and elsewhere.
32:03 They turned the stage into a disco floor.
32:05 So my audience participation and all that.
32:07 So it's very, very entertaining.
32:09 But the debate of Lloyd's is like, is there something hurtful here in terms of the interests of the people, of the victims, of the Marcos, etc.?
32:21 So there are actually critics of Marcos, of the first Marcos, and critics of Imelda who actually liked it, who actually liked it and say that actually, these issues came out.
32:34 I mean, actually, and even the disco scenes were kind of a critique of the frivolity of it all.
32:41 And the fact that we're actually talking about it shows that this musical has an impact.
32:47 But there are some who say it's doing a disservice to the Philippines and we should not watch it.
32:54 So I take it that you support the staging of this.
33:01 And if you had a chance, would you see it?
33:03 Sorry, not sorry, but frankly, I'm not interested.
33:05 Why?
33:06 Number one, the disco setting talagang parang throws me off.
33:14 Of course, it's an artistic license.
33:15 We can always claim artistic license.
33:17 But there's a very, very brilliant review that I read by a Filipino playwright in New York.
33:24 What Ralph Peña of my age was saying was, "Does Doña Aurora have to sing about being a drummer boy?"
33:33 And yun nga nga eh, yung curation of facts, yung curation of moment.
33:37 That's also the job of a playwright, to curate important things which say something about our history.
33:44 And maybe, although I have not seen it, but from what I'm reading, yung curation nga nun.
33:50 And then, of course, yung point ni Elmer Gachalian, whom I always read.
33:54 He's also an art critic, art historian.
33:59 He's written a lot.
34:00 Yung kay Elmer is, "Do we need to talk about this now?
34:04 Must this be presented with such gloss now to an audience that doesn't know?"
34:09 Diba? That is not quite aware of it, of what happened.
34:13 Ang theater kasi, you know what, how it can be very, very tricky.
34:17 Because in the way you choose a subject matter, in the way you, in a sense, glamorize it,
34:23 it really puts everything in a more perfect, cleaner perspective, no?
34:28 Because of production.
34:30 So, are we sending the wrong message about that period?
34:35 I think that's the question we all need to think.
34:37 Again, I have not seen the production, but from what I've read about it,
34:40 and from what I've, the counter views, of course, very interesting.
34:44 But you'll notice how a lot of the rave reviews praise the production.
34:48 And by the production, music, like the way that it's so innovative in getting an audience to sing, to dance.
34:55 So, it's a production concern.
34:57 Ang sinasabi nung isang side is a content concern.
35:01 And that's important also.
35:03 There's the production concern, the gloss of it, which is very Broadway.
35:06 That's an American art form, diba? The gloss, the musicality of it.
35:10 I mean, I'm not knocking it. I love Broadway.
35:13 So, there's production, but there's also content.
35:16 And I think the main, what people, what the counter critics are saying,
35:20 is always about content and the importance of context.
35:25 But basically, Paul Limat is somebody who's knowledgeable or talented in many things, no?
35:31 So, tinawog kang ganon.
35:32 Kasi, you know, you've made a name for yourself in theatre, playwriting, directing, production, etc.
35:40 But you have another persona as someone who is a collector, even a champion of pre-colonial artifacts, cultures.
35:53 You have a large and valuable collection of bulols and other kinds of, and other artifacts like that.
36:02 And also fabrics.
36:03 Your fabrics have been displayed in many places.
36:07 They're in museums, etc.
36:10 So, you mentioned kasi kanina, the need to remember.
36:13 I mean, we were just referring to the Marcos years and what happened in the 1970s and '80s.
36:19 Pero itong mga kinokolekta mo, they're centuries old.
36:24 So, how do you juggle this in your mind?
36:27 I mean, you're updating Reconciliation Dinner, which is very, very current,
36:32 based on what's happening on social media, etc.
36:35 And then you're thinking about itong mga centuries old rice gods, animist art,
36:44 things that most people don't even think about.
36:47 Objects are beautiful.
36:49 Objects are worth obsessing about.
36:51 But really, I keep reminding myself, more than just an object, these things connect us to what we have lost, our animist soul.
37:01 Okay?
37:02 I'm not knocking Christianity.
37:04 I'm a devout Catholic, and how that exists within me, I don't know.
37:07 But we've lost that.
37:09 What does a textile represent?
37:12 In this age of fast fashion, a textile represents great technical knowledge.
37:17 Computers, looms, were the first computers out.
37:22 And to think that these things, the ancient weavers, the traditional weavers, never wove with a template.
37:28 It was all here.
37:30 If you understand the way a textile is put together, how, let's say, even in recent times, how a langdulay,
37:39 of course, our Gawad Manilikan ng Bayan, how a salintamonon, how they would dye.
37:47 Look for the right fiber.
37:49 Look for the right dyes from the forest.
37:52 Tie these into complex patterns, which you don't see.
37:55 Pero pag hinabi nilang ganon, pak, ang ganda.
37:58 It's a whole mindset.
38:00 Number one, what do these objects represent?
38:03 A spiritual knowledge, a technical knowledge, an economic knowledge, a knowledge of biology.
38:09 And botany, rather, of botany.
38:12 They're so total and so complex.
38:15 And they represent for me what Professor Felipe de Leon, one of the men I really admire,
38:21 will always call an integrated Filipino, an integrated soul, an integrated individual.
38:27 But to look at the textile, to hold it in your hands, and to realize that this is the work of more,
38:32 that this is more than just aesthetic, to use a popular word now.
38:36 It's botany, because you have to learn how to grow the plant, how to grow the cotton, how to find the right dye.
38:44 It's the complexity of math.
38:47 Mathematics 'yan. It's not just pa'art.
38:50 We like to think of it as art, spirit.
38:52 No, it's math. Mahibap gawin 'yan.
38:54 Mahibap i-warp and weft, that's science.
38:57 That's precision.
38:59 It's discipline.
39:01 How do you weave, ba?
39:03 You have the weavers on backstrap looms, they sit up straight for four hours.
39:08 They cannot, and concentration 'yan is intense.
39:11 Let's look at prestige symbols like the hagabi, like the bulol.
39:18 These are products of intense spiritual.
39:21 We always look at them as, "Ay, beautiful."
39:23 Again, we look at these as art.
39:25 We miss out on the fact that these are objects that combine all the best things about a culture.
39:32 I try as much as possible to educate the market on it.
39:37 What do these represent?
39:39 These represent the totality of ifugao social culture.
39:43 Maywan akong hagabi, mayyaman ako, nagpagawa ako ng hagabi.
39:46 Pero sinong gumagamit ng hagabi?
39:48 Everybody in the village.
39:50 Kasi you can't put it in your house, it's under your house.
39:53 So everyone can lounge in it.
39:54 Ano yung significance nun?
39:55 Paano ka nagkahagabi?
39:56 Bago ka nagkahagabi, pinakain mo through ritual feasts ang buong village for nine consecutive years.
40:04 To earn status, to earn that kind of a status in traditional ifugao society,
40:10 you had to have had a corresponding social responsibility.
40:14 That's what fascinates more than the object itself.
40:18 How are these objects reflective of a more socially equitable idea of status?
40:27 And it's interesting also because I have many, many ifugao friends,
40:30 and when you ask them, "Bakit hindi na kayo nagbubulol?"
40:33 Kasi napakamahal maging kadangyan.
40:35 To be kadangyan, to achieve that status, you're constantly feeding people around you.
40:41 You're constantly throwing feasts.
40:43 So prestige had an equal social responsibility.
40:48 Ganda, no? Hindi ba?
40:50 You don't get that from an LV bag.
40:52 You don't get that from an Hermes bag.
40:54 All you need to do is buy it.
40:56 But among the ifugao and among many traditional societies,
40:59 prestige was equated to social responsibility.
41:03 Baka hindi lahat nakakaintindi kung ano yung bulol.
41:06 It's a rice god, tama, no? It's a rice god.
41:10 It's a deity that protects the rice.
41:13 Ginalagay siya sa alam or sa kamaling para protectahan at padamihin ang bigas.
41:22 Pero hindi natin alam ano ba yung earlier, ano ba yung nasira noong panahon ng Kastila.
41:27 Andami ding likha na nasira.
41:29 And I have a feeling kung pag-aralan natin yung recent studies ni Professor Stephen Acavedo
41:35 at ng Ifugao Archaeological Project na again, very interesting to how, you know,
41:40 sana I hope your viewers can latch on to this.
41:43 Lagi natin iniisip ang Bayer theory na ang rice crevices ay 3000 years old.
41:48 The Acavedo studies show that it could be 500 years old only
41:53 and a resistance to Spanish colonization.
41:56 Ganda. Worth thinking about.
41:58 Are these traditional cultures being threatened now?
42:02 Matagal na. Matagal na talaga, Howie.
42:07 Lagi natin iniisip na ang damage sa ating indigenous cultures nangyari noong panahon ng Amerikano.
42:13 Hindi. I'd just like to debunk that.
42:15 It happened in the 50s, 60s, 70s. Land grabbing, militarization,
42:20 yung pagkukuha ng indigenous lands nila.
42:25 That happened during our time. Nasa konsyensya natin yun as contemporary Filipinos.
42:29 Wag natin sisihin ang mga kano.
42:31 Of course, kailangan natin sabihin na inevitable ang change.
42:34 But at the same time, we cannot, for me, ha,
42:40 I cannot say to my Ifugao friends, no, or to my Kankanay friends,
42:44 continue living in your homes, in your bale.
42:48 Continue living. No.
42:50 They have all the right to modern convenience.
42:53 They have all the right to education.
42:56 Atayo kasi, mga contemporary lowland Filipinos,
43:01 we like to think of them as something, the noble savage.
43:04 We still have that baggage. No.
43:06 They are people, they are Filipinos like us.
43:08 They are entitled to what we have, to what we are able to have.
43:12 We cannot put them in that vacuum.
43:14 Little by little, because of education, they are beginning to change, too.
43:19 And they have all the right to change.
43:22 And for me, that is where collectors, museums, anthropologists can come in.
43:28 It's because we, by, part of that is choosing to discard the detritus of their material culture.
43:37 Number one, wala na sa kanila 'yon. Hindi na importante.
43:40 It's not in the present.
43:41 But we keep it for them. We keep it for us.
43:44 We keep it to exchange among a small community of people who admire and who like.
43:49 We are able to connect, place important collections in museums.
43:54 That's where the collector is important.
43:56 That's where we are important.
43:58 Because this constant detritus will happen.
44:01 It will continue to happen for as long as people change.
44:04 Because tanggapin natin, the old ways are no longer important or practical.
44:09 Just as much as we like to say, just as wearing the terno or the balut saya every day,
44:15 or the barong tagalog every day, or even that.
44:20 We're guilty of that. Hindi ba?
44:23 So as long as there is change happening in a society, that's where the collector stands as important.
44:31 Now, what is left of the indigenous people?
44:36 What is valuable for them?
44:38 For example, in Ipugao now, they sell the balut and hide the gansa, the musical instrument.
44:45 Because that's part of the intangible heritage which they bring out.
44:50 And that I love. I like that the most.
44:52 You can see in the rituals, the harvest rituals, the children in jeans, in t-shirts,
45:00 they're dancing, the gansa is playing, and their gansa playing is so vibrant.
45:06 So what is left, what is kept, is what is important to them.
45:10 Let them be the judge of what is important to them.
45:12 We cannot tell them, "No, this has to stay there. I hate this purist mentality that it has to stay with them."
45:19 Wala na sa kanila eh.
45:21 Baskets are beautiful, but right now, plastic is more important.
45:25 Is that bad? Aesthetically, maybe.
45:28 But then, choice nila 'yon. It is a choice.
45:31 And we have to give them that agency.
45:34 There's a lot of discussion now about the beautiful gold necklace which Beauty Gonzales wore.
45:40 I understand where they're coming from.
45:43 But you have to understand also, na bagamat, there's the 2010 law,
45:49 which says that everything excavated belongs to the government.
45:52 You have to understand the rampant '70s, '80s, '60s, '70s, '80s diggings that were going on.
45:59 This was 1960, half a century away.
46:01 And dadalhin sa Maynila 'yong mga nahuhukay.
46:08 Alam mo, 'yong mga hindi nabibili, pinapakte, ninemelt, dinadalo sa Bukawe, tinutunaw for the gold value.
46:16 Because again, aanuhin naman 'yong mga taga samar, let's say, or butuan.
46:22 Aanuhin nila 'yong gintung nahukay, kung hindi nabili, kung hindi naging cash, e di tunawin na lang.
46:29 So a lot of the important gold that we see in the Banco Central,
46:32 that we see in the Ayala Museum collections, which are outstanding public collections,
46:37 and a lot of the ones that are in private collections, these were actually salvaged from the melting pot.
46:44 Kasi 'yon ang reality dun sa mga nagdidig e.
46:46 Hindi mo naman pwede sa kanilang sabihin na, oh itago nyo 'yan.
46:50 Bakit? Hindi ko makain 'yan.
46:51 Again, the practical concern, kailangan ko pakainin ang pamilya ko.
46:55 Kailangan ko 'yan. And rather than, kung hindi mabenta,
46:59 adi sunugin, ano na lang, i-melt na lang, tinda sa ano, per kilo.
47:04 A lot of the things which are now being shown, which are being worn publicly,
47:09 a lot of these things, yes, lahat naman 'yan galing sa patay.
47:13 Lahat naman 'yan, I feel, talagang galing sa grave.
47:16 Now, were they robbed? In a sense, yes. Totoo 'yon.
47:20 But then, that was the reality of the times.
47:23 These pieces exist today because someone bothered to buy them.
47:27 Somebody bothered to keep them. At hindi lang pinadala sa Maykawayan para tunawin.
47:32 Take the case of the famous golden tara, which is now in the Chicago Field Museum.
47:36 That beautiful object, the golden tara, which was found by a Manobo woman in Agusan.
47:42 Sino ang nag-raise ng money para bilhin 'yon? If I'm not mistaken, maybe.
47:47 It was a society of American women and men who decided to raise money to buy it.
47:53 Kasi wala makabili sa Pilipinas nung nakabili.
47:57 So, in a way, the collector, the museum, these are important, especially for us.
48:04 Because they preserve what would have otherwise been lost.
48:08 Now, ibang usapan nito sa nangyayari sa West ngayon.
48:11 Of the African trophies, of the African being repatriated back to Nigeria, back to the Benin people.
48:19 Ibang usapan 'yon. Kasi talaga trophies of war 'yon.
48:24 And for me, that's their issue to resolve. Irisolw na 'yon among yourselves kung isasoli na 'yon.
48:29 But in the Philippines, the majority of what is in our museums, in our public collections, in our private collections,
48:36 hindi naman masasabing trophies of war 'yon.
48:41 Masasabing illegal excavation? Yes.
48:44 Because everything at that time, wala namang law at that time that says, during the 1960s, wala pang law.
48:49 But what there is now, what there is studied now, what anthropologists and scholars can refer to for their collections,
48:56 they're all products of collectors who sought to preserve what was there.
49:06 So, tama ba yung ginawa ni Beauty? Moral issue 'yon.
49:10 Moral issue yung ginawa ni Beauty, yung pagsasuot niya 'yan.
49:13 Pero bilang collector, akin nito, ganito ang pagvalue ko niyan, yeah, why not?
49:19 I would draw a line with mummies.
49:24 May mummies din tayo sa Sagada.
49:26 'Yon ako medyo iffy.
49:28 But gold, which was given to our ancestors as a way of memorializing them, well, they're there, they're preserved.
49:35 So earlier, you shared some advice about popularity.
49:44 Basically, you said, let's not be too obsessed with popularity, if you're going to be an artist or writer.
49:52 Any other advice you want to share with us?
49:55 The other important thing that I would say, something that Nick Joaquin always espoused,
50:01 is to carry your teachers on your backs, to carry what you've learned on your backs.
50:08 Nothing is original. Nothing anybody can do now is new.
50:13 It's the way you're saying it.
50:15 And number two, technique.
50:18 Refine your technique. A lot of people think art is off the moment, off the emotion.
50:23 Let's go back to the basics. Technique.
50:26 What are the things that have worked?
50:28 Read. Read. Read the old.
50:31 A lot of... This is funny because in pop culture especially, pop culture,
50:35 they reference things so easily because of the internet.
50:39 "Gagayahin ko 'yan, gagayahin ko 'yan, gagayahin ko 'yan."
50:41 Without knowing, "Saan ba nanggaling 'yon?
50:44 Sa ano bang tinagmula nito? Ano ba 'to?"
50:46 Your passion for "bai-baiin," Howie, let's talk about that.
50:49 Your passion for "bai-baiin" and the way you're bringing it back.
50:53 A lot of people will use "bai-baiin" just for design, di ba?
50:57 Just for the design purpose.
50:59 But the biggest challenge is investing yourself in knowledge of what it is.
51:03 And for me, that's important, whether or not you're collecting.
51:06 Whether it's collecting, it's creating, it's what...
51:09 Know what the context is. Go deeper into it.
51:13 We like to think it's a design. I like it. I'll put it on my T-shirt.
51:17 I'll use it as a tattoo.
51:19 But I'm not condemning it. That's the entry point.
51:24 You have your foot in the door, young Filipinos.
51:27 You have your foot in the door. Open the door. Go find more about it.
51:31 Bakit ilang forms ng "bai-baiin" sa Pilipinas, hindi lang 'yon nakikita natin.
51:35 Amdami-dami. Sino pang gumagamit ng "bai-baiin" sa Pilipinas?
51:38 Mangyan, Palawanon, amdami pa.
51:41 And then that continues to open us up always to new ways.
51:46 Anyway, rather than just creating and creating, ano 'yung kwento nun?
51:51 Sino 'yung taong gumawa nito? Anong ibig sabihin ang motif na 'yan?
51:55 Your audience may not get it, but you as an artist, you as a creator,
51:59 you will understand and you will use it respectfully because you understand.
52:03 I love going through Facebook and just reading what young people are thinking.
52:08 Kasi these are the young Filipinos who will take the vestiges of traditional culture into the future.
52:14 Well, that kind of triggered a thought about Wang Od, the tattoo artist in Kalinga.
52:21 Of course, she's being celebrated. She's now put on this fabulous magazine cover.
52:26 O, the Vogue cover.
52:27 O, ng Vogue. But there's also been some debate about this so-called cultural appropriation by others
52:36 of this traditional art. Is there a limit to what we can do with her art, her craft?
52:43 If you look at the most popular tattoo of Wang Od, the most popular is really just her signature.
52:48 The three dots, that's the most popular. And that has nothing to do with which one.
52:53 Okay, I have a question though, and this has always bothered me when I see young Filipinos,
52:58 when I see friends wearing Kalinga warrior tattoos. That bothers me. Why?
53:04 Number one, to wear a tattoo like that in traditional society, you're a headhunter.
53:10 Highly ritualized violence. May pinagdadaan ng ritual yan, may pinagdadaan ng proseso.
53:15 But are you worthy of that? There, that question. Again, nasa ati na yan.
53:21 I may like it for the design, the Kalinga warrior sleeve. I see that on a lot of young Filipinos,
53:28 the Kalinga warrior full sleeve. But at the same time, if you knew what that entailed in traditional society,
53:36 and then may growth trajectory din yan eh, from headhunter to pangat, peace pact holder.
53:44 So nakikita mo yung kabuuan ng pagkatao nila, the ideal path that in traditional Kalinga society,
53:49 you would have taken. From a young headhunter who had taken heads and proved his valor,
53:54 all the way to maturity as a pangat, which makli yung dulag was, peace pact holder, negotiating peace.
54:01 So yung mga ganun, dun medyo iffy ako. I'm a bit iffy about that. But the little tattoos, the three dots, go ahead.
54:10 We're forgetting also, there are other sides of the cultural spectrum na she should never have done that.
54:16 She should never have given these tattoos out to outsiders.
54:19 But we don't know how Wang Od has sustained her village, has sustained her family.
54:24 It's again a matter of economics eh. She has sustained, taught and sustained and popularized.
54:32 The onus of learning is on us. Are we up to it?
54:36 Of course, she said at the same time, napaka-mercantile ng Cordillera culture. Nothing bad about that.
54:42 The Ifugaos have always been traders. The Kalinga have always been trading cultures yan eh.
54:47 So are you stopping them? No. If somebody wants to pay for it, yes, go ahead.
54:53 But the onus is on us to understand what we are putting on our bodies.
54:58 That's a great point to end on. So much wisdom in this conversation.
55:02 No naman.
55:03 We'll let you go. Buhay ka, Floyd Quintos, award-winning playwright, director, theater luminary at maraming pang iba. Maraming maraming salamat.
55:13 Salamat din, Howie.
55:15 Hi, I'm Howie Severino. Check out the Howie Severino Podcast, an original for GMA News and Public Affairs.
55:22 New episodes will stream every Thursday. Listen for free on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts and other platforms.
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