Press Hour of September 24, 2023
Transcript
00:00:00 [music]
00:00:02 [music]
00:00:04 [music]
00:00:33 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to today's edition of the program.
00:00:38 It is always important, compellingly crucial, to separate facts from opinion.
00:00:45 While opinion depends on the prevailing situation and several other variables,
00:00:50 sometimes even in the imagination of the giver, for an interest, facts are stubborn and constant.
00:00:58 And no matter how we attempt to hide the truth, in the words of the great 15th century English poet Geoffrey Chaucer,
00:01:08 in the Man's Priest's Tale, "The truth will always out."
00:01:15 Thus, in his collection, The Count's Braids Tales, there is also something fundamentally true about Cameroon
00:01:25 that some of us are trying to hide.
00:01:29 The fact that Cameroon is blessed, richly blessed, endowed in its diversity, culture, climate, geography, history, tourism,
00:01:40 human capital, natural resources, and you name them.
00:01:44 On Press Hour today, we are going to look at how our country is richly blessed with minerals,
00:01:52 how God's hand is on our subsoil, what are the breakthroughs and the setbacks,
00:01:59 are some of the things that we are going to look at on today's edition of the program.
00:02:04 And to talk about this very crucial topic, crucial to our economy, crucial to our growth, we have the following as guests.
00:02:15 Mr. Ntep Gwet Pohor is a senior mining and geology engineer, and I am very happy, this is the first time I'm meeting you.
00:02:26 Welcome to Press Hour.
00:02:28 Thank you, Kilian.
00:02:29 We have Dr. Ful Jonathan, he is the Deputy Director General of the national mining company, Sonamine.
00:02:37 A pleasure to have you on Press Hour today, sir.
00:02:41 Thank you very much, Kilian. I'm glad to be with you today on this topic, which is not only sensitive, but strategic for our country.
00:02:50 Strategic indeed. Mr. Mbala Mbala Jean is a civil society actor. This also is the first time I'm meeting you person to person.
00:02:58 You're welcome to Press Hour, sir.
00:03:00 Thank you, Kilian. It's my pleasure to meet you again.
00:03:04 And I have Dr. Livinus Esambe, who is a communication partner with the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative, and also a civil society actor.
00:03:18 Our pleasure, our honor to welcome you on Press Hour today.
00:03:22 You're right, sir. The pleasure is mine. We are just merely whistleblowers.
00:03:28 Today, we are announcing our special guest on Press Hour, who is already standing by.
00:03:36 He is Professor Ful Kalustus Gentry, who is the Interim Minister of Mines, Industries and Technological Development, who is right there on the line.
00:03:49 He's our honored sir, professor, to have you participate as our special guest and actually live on Press Hour today.
00:03:57 [Pause]
00:04:03 Okay.
00:04:05 [Pause]
00:04:09 Welcome to Press Hour.
00:04:11 [Pause]
00:04:14 Yes, we can see him. We're going to make sure that our lines are perfect, perfect in such a way that when we call him, he's going to answer.
00:04:25 Thank you once again, professor. Thank you, gentlemen, for taking time to come.
00:04:31 Ladies and gentlemen, we want to remind you that you are watching Press Hour and we are broadcasting live from ZRTV Production Center here on Bala 2 in Yaounde.
00:04:42 And we begin this program with press review, which is the first slot that sets it rolling.
00:04:49 Yoti Kale, Lesange is our lady on that beat. Yoti, you read the newspapers for us.
00:04:58 [Music]
00:05:05 The week's tabloids prompt some readers to relieve dreadful memories of the sociopolitical unrest in the Northwest and Southwest regions, though in the end, they all heave a sigh of relief.
00:05:18 The Horizon opts for words like tit for tat, informing the print media audience that self-imposed General Bitter Cola has been neutralized, as Newswatch adds that the warlord was killed alongside four others, revealing that Field Marshal Bitter Cola was behind the killing of schoolchildren at Mother Francisca in Goomba.
00:05:40 Likewise, the initiator of the recent two-week school boycott lockdown in Mehmet Division. The Guardian Post further explains that the Amber General was killed in a clash with soldiers.
00:05:52 The same newspaper keeps the attention of the readership with the article on when hoodlums masquerade as freedom fighters, mentioning the imposed ban on inter-urban transport agencies, a ban that led passengers to heave a sigh of relief immediately travel agencies resumed activities.
00:06:11 Meantime, the population of Marwa is in an ever-grateful mood, an emotion the Guardian Post highlights as it writes "Promise made, promise kept," attesting that the foundation stone of President Bia's giant water project has been made in Marwa, a scheme that will supply 13,000 cubic meters of water daily.
00:06:33 Water supply is not the only utility spotlighted in the papers. Cameroon Tribune on its part takes an interest in the access to electricity, disclosing that 90,000 connections have been done, with households and other structures already benefiting from the project for the electrification of regions launched in January 2023.
00:06:56 Cameroon Insider is more concerned about the national road projects under the Scana. Nonetheless, some of the week's publications dive into the mining sector. Cameroon Tribune underlines that efforts of transparency in the mining sector are paying off, while the Guardian Post dedicates more than a page to an exclusive with Interim Minister of Mines, Industry and Technological Development, Professor Foucault-Alistos,
00:07:24 who outlines Cameroon's huge mining potential. Other articles on issues like fire ravaging warehouses in Douala, the suspension of the GEM of the Cameroonian Bank for SMEs, and improving Cameroon's digital economy kept readers abreast of what may news in the country, just as Cameroon Insider asks football fans to predict the winner of the 2023 Football Cup of Cameroon final.
00:07:52 [Music]
00:07:59 Yes, you're welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much, Yoti Kalilisonge, for reading the papers for us. We're going to start the debate right away.
00:08:14 Our topic again to tell you mining in Cameroon, what are the breakthroughs, what are the strengths and what are the setbacks. Mining is said to be one of the riches of Cameroon that God actually gave us without any measure. That is abundantly, I should say.
00:08:38 We're going to start with the civil society. I start with you, Mr. Balambala. Your civil society, if you were asked, how are we managing our mining sector in Cameroon? Simple question like that.
00:08:56 Yes, this question is very simple but also difficult to answer. But what I will say is the way that you are managing our mining sector is something where when you look at it as you said and you heard from the minister in charge of mining, you have a very huge potential, but this potential is not yet explored at the level, at the optimum.
00:09:23 So, we need to, let's say, to dig again, to dig more and more in a way that you can explore that huge potential in our economy. That's the only way I can answer.
00:09:39 Yes, one thing I've heard from you is potential and exploitation. I am going to, it's just kind of going through, we are not getting deep yet into the discussion. Dr. Jonathan, you are the Deputy Director General of the National Mining Company, so what I mean, the same question, are you very comfortable with the way it's going before we go to potential?
00:10:07 Well, I'm comfortable with the potential. First of all, comfortable because as the previous speakers have said, Cameroon has a huge potential in the domain of mining. In fact, mining potential that is quoted in the world, being the domain of iron ore, bauxite, uranium, and so on.
00:10:34 We have so much.
00:10:37 That's right, because recently during a mining conference that was organized in Yeondi, it was discovered that Cameroon has over 300 anomalies.
00:10:46 Anomalies, what does that mean?
00:10:50 Anomalies that is potential, possibilities of mining, of mines.
00:10:56 Not yet developed?
00:10:58 Not yet developed. Even the World Bank in a project called PECASEM, this project has already scanned through this country from north to south, east to west, and has already identified the mining potential of a country. They know where the mines are located, their estimated quantities and so on. So, if you look at these two reports, you will discover that Cameroon is exceedingly rich in that domain.
00:11:25 Thank you very much. One word of taking is potential. We have to go beyond potential. It is the same question that I am going to ask you to measure, Mr. Ntep Gwetpol. Cameroon is rich?
00:11:40 Yes, Kilian. Just every Cameroonian knows since decades that Cameroon is very rich in terms of mineral resources.
00:11:54 Now, just one minute to recall this potential. We have precious substances like gold, sapphire, olivine and so on. And then we have basic metals like iron, like cobalt, like aluminium, like titanium and so on.
00:12:18 And then we have energetic substances like hydrocarbon, petroleum, gases, and then uranium, and then rare metals, as General Manager of Somalimina has just said. And then we have industrial minerals like kyanite.
00:12:40 Very good. We are going to ask the Minister to give us his most authoritative voice. Thank you for enumerating that. But before we get to him, Dr. Livinos, we are very rich in minerals. You are a partner with the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative. So, extractive means that you are concerned with how we exploit these minerals.
00:13:09 Yes, thank you. I will follow the cue by answering the fact that we have rich potential. But as I said, we are whistleblowers. I may say that it may not be comfortable for you that we are a resource-cursed nation as a civil society activist.
00:13:32 The Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative is trying to make us push ahead so that we have visibility, so that our cause, the opacity that operates around mining, the potential should bring development. Because with us, EITI, we believe that those mines belong to the citizens.
00:13:54 That is why you are here. We also introduced you as a civil society actor. You are there, as you say, to make sure that what you call opacity for some people who don't understand is just that those hidden things, those dark spots should be made open. Did I understand you well?
00:14:11 Yes.
00:14:31 If the minister is with us, yes, I can see him. We want to know how is mining faring in Cameroon? We are going to ask you this question. Forrestat?
00:14:47 I should say so. I think the mining sector is faring well. I want people to stop communicating about potential and talking about moving from potential to production. We have talked about potential for years.
00:15:05 What we are doing this year following the speech of the head of state last December is about moving from a nation of potential to a nation of production. That is why we are working on three mining projects to start this year so that the engagement of the head of state to Cameroonians will be honoured.
00:15:32 Now you are talking about potential and production. We don't really get it. Give us the clear line, the bottom line between potential and production. How can potential take us to production?
00:15:52 We have defined 12 major projects which are becoming common literature in Cameroon. Short term projects, which are five of them, which have a capacity to start within one year. Of these we have three iron ore projects which the head of state mentioned in his speech.
00:16:11 We have the Sinus Steel Iron Ore Project in Kribi, the Grand Zambi Iron Ore Project in Akomde, the Malam Iron Ore Project. We have also added to these two core projects which we believe have a capacity to start.
00:16:30 First of all we have the Kodias Project which is in Colombe. We have the Kaminko Project in Betaraya. After a very good restructuring exercise, the Jovik Project which for 18 years has been lying dormant, we brought it to life.
00:16:51 I can tell you that it is one of the three projects that we want to see start this year. We can also talk of mid-term projects which we think can start. Technically starting within two years from now.
00:17:07 There is Iron Ore in Izeka. There is a Rotai Project in Akonolinga. There is another iron ore in Izeka. We have two other iron ore projects in Nkut and Tem in the south. To that we can add another core project.
00:17:30 And finally we have two long-term projects. The Boksai Project in Minimata and then a gold project in the north. This is our potential. By saying that we are migrating, we should start talking not of potential anymore but of moving into a mining nation production.
00:17:51 This is the technically starting of three projects this year which is the Sino Steel Project in Kribi, the Grand Zambi Iron Ore Project in Akondo and the Jovik Project which is the Cobalt Nickel Project in Lumie.
00:18:13 We are working very hard to make sure that the gold project which has already started in Kolomi in Kodias comes into fruition this year with re-innovating the technology that is being done there through a mission that will be accomplished by my technical staff to Brazil.
00:18:31 We all watched and listened to the Minister in charge of Mines, Industries and Technological Development, Professor Fou Kalustos Gentry. Mr. Ntep Wetpour, you should not have any problem again with migrating from potential to production because that is the point you were raising.
00:18:59 He has outlined how well, how ready and how practical they are working to do what you were asking that should be done. I think you should be satisfied now.
00:19:12 Yes, Kirian, first of all as the Minister has said, the Head of State has quoted three mining projects to start this year and I can say the Minister of Mines is pushing a daily basis to meet that deadline.
00:19:37 The first project is the Cynosteel Project, the Lobe Iron Ore Mining Project in Kribi, I am the technical advisor of Cynosteel. I can say all the obstacles which were on the road for this mine to begin has been pulled out.
00:19:58 What were some of those obstacles?
00:20:00 First of all, let me tell one. In the perimeter of the mining area of Cynosteel, we met there were 300 land certificates to be compensated for billions and billions.
00:20:22 And this illegal, which certificates were not regular and the hierarchy of taking the decision to cancel all those to let this mining begin. We cannot have land certificates within the virgin forest. It is not correct.
00:20:45 We are going to block all the mining projects coming. So the State has taken a good move there in the direction of the operators.
00:20:57 That also is a lesson for some people, each time they project and know that there is going to be a big realization in a place, they go behind and buy the whole place. I think as you say, the State came in this time timely to say that no, you should not cheat your own country.
00:21:19 I will get to the person who is a whistleblower, Dr Livinose Esambe. When you hear this, there are things that are happening. Probably it happened because some of you blew the whistle. So you should be very satisfied with the way it is moving.
00:21:36 I could have been satisfied if the contract was published. We are concerned with the publication of the contract. We are also concerned with the beneficial owners. Who are those behind Cynosteel? Who are the owners? Who own the project? This is what we are concerned as whistleblowers inside the EITF.
00:22:01 What is your concern about this?
00:22:03 Because with that, it tries to curb away from corrupt practices that are associated with the execution of the project. So we are trying to advocate for contracts to be published openly and everybody should know exactly what those contracts are all about.
00:22:26 Perhaps the former minister, the late Mehisore Sinti, tried as much as possible to publish some of the terms of the contract, partially or fully, but we are trying to push that within the EITF that if what the government is saying, what the engineers are saying, Mr Paul, and this thing, they should make available contracts to the public to know exactly what the contract is.
00:22:55 I'm talking about beneficial ownership. It's very important for us. Who are behind these contracts? Who are behind these projects? We are trying to see that a register should be established. Mr Mbala has done some studies on that.
00:23:14 I will get to Mr Mbala, but before I go to him, Mr Mtegwek, Dr Livinus Esambe, just said something which is not exactly the way you said it. He's saying that you didn't publish the contracts and you are saying that everything is okay.
00:23:30 No. The mining convention is not the contract. It's the mining convention.
00:23:34 Well, it would be the convention. Maybe it's a problem of terminology.
00:23:37 When you go to the internet, you just type now, you have it. It's published since the late minister Dodondo gave it. It is published. And I can tell you, it's not the matter because the convention does not derogate to the law.
00:23:51 Since the law is public and the convention does not derogate to the law, there is nothing new in that convention. And I can tell you, there is issue of local contents in the mining code for the local beneficiary. It's a huge amount provided in the mining convention.
00:24:09 We can say more, but I can tell you, the benefits of the local population are taken into account in the law, not in the convention.
00:24:21 Mr Mbala Mbala John, civil society actor, there is this work that Mr Mtegwek and Dr Livinus Esambe is drawing. Where do you stand?
00:24:37 I will stand from the declaration from the minister, asking the question, when you ask the question, where is the borderline between potential and production.
00:24:50 And the minister has said good information, has given good information on those projects that has to be started in the short term, medium term and long term. This is a very good starting point, how we can be satisfied in a way that we can exploit the natural resources in mining and then benefit from them.
00:25:13 What Mr Mtegwek has said, yes, it is important to know that when you want to start a project, as he has just said, you have some people, corrupted practices and so on, who will get some information and get some advantage on the project.
00:25:32 That poses a problem of those who are around the project, what we call the people around the project, the local people around the project site. It is very important because the law, the 2016 mining code stipulated some disposition where those people can benefit from that project.
00:26:01 So if you don't have those real people and you have fake people coming and getting land and so on, it means that when the project will be exploited, producing, but it will not be the local people who will be benefiting from the, what you call the sub-national transfer from the project to the people.
00:26:25 Yes, in short, many people know this as royalties. That is a technical term, we know the most common that is royalties.
00:26:35 So this royalty will not benefit to the people around the project, who are the engineers, people around the project. So it is very important that this kind of setbacks has been identified and then solved from now in the way that when the project will be running and producing, you will know, the government will know exactly how to manage those resources and then benefit to the local people.
00:27:01 Yes, now we are going to move to someone who is involved directly with carrying out these reforms on the field, the Deputy Director General of the National Mining Company Sonami, talking about Dr. Phil Jonathan who is here with us.
00:27:20 You listened to the Minister, I know you actually agree with what he said, but there is on the set a kind of dispute over publication of this, publication of that. What is your take, what do you, I have been seeing you on the field, each time I see you, you are there touching the ground for what is happening. Give us the on the spot report of what is happening.
00:27:49 Well, what I will say before I get to your question, Kieran, is that the Minister has said it, that we are now moving from potential to production and has given us examples, which is the vision of the Head of State and I think this decision of the Head of State at this moment is quite timely.
00:28:12 You know, my brother over there has talked about a curse in the mining sector. That curse is that, it's a paradox that countries rich in minerals but poor in development. That's what is happening in most African countries. We have a lot of minerals but development doesn't follow because of these minerals we are poorly exploited.
00:28:36 But I think with our case, the government, the Head of State has chosen the right moment. At the moment when he knows that the debate about the benefits for the nation, for the local authorities is on the table, even at the international level. You know what is happening in Africa today. People questioning the involvement of foreigners, of foreign countries in our mineral potential.
00:28:58 If not, what is happening is that there is a law. The law, the mining code, defines all the procedures that have to be followed. This mining code which is going through several reforms because it's being adapted, being updated to meet up with the general changes that are around.
00:29:18 Today, the mining code defines the benefits. The benefits for the government, the benefits for the population. For example, he's charged with technical government interest in the mining sector. But at the local level, both the law and the conventions are aside. Because the law defines, gives the framework. These are details in the convention.
00:29:38 Mr. Agwe talked of local content. There's local content. They have benefits in cash that goes to the council and to the population. They have benefits in forms of infrastructure. It could be roads, it could be hospitals, it could be electricity and so on. All these are involved in the motion.
00:29:58 We're going to include this into what we are saying. You just made mention of something very important. We cannot move from potential to production without reforms. And since we still have the minister in charge on the line, we hope that our lines are still clear. We're going to ask you, yes, I can see him sitting by, listening to us.
00:30:22 Mr. Minister, you're going to tell us, you've been talking about reforms. What are the reforms that you are putting in place to make sure that the transition from potential to production is effective?
00:30:36 The reforms is, first of all, for the major industrial projects. The reforms we are putting in is that most of the initial people occupying these projects did not have the technical capacity to execute the projects.
00:30:56 And we are presently reinforcing them by bringing in strategic partners into the project who are well known to have a record history in the industry. They are the only people who are capable to raise finance in the international markets to make these projects go on.
00:31:15 We are just doing a major restructuring to reinforce companies. By the way, I should tell you that of all the 12 projects I cited, basically just one or two, I discovered the rest of the projects were projects that come along through international cooperation with agencies from Germany, France and other countries put into place under the United Nations Development Programme.
00:31:42 So these companies came and we are giving these projects to viralise and develop, but we found that most of them did not have the requisites. So the major reform we are making is restructuring the companies and bringing in more potent partners who can make the projects move so that they can easily start and get the required financing.
00:32:08 Sino Steel, for example, is a company which has a parent company in China which is a consumer of a product, which means they are a steel company, which means they will be able to consume their own projects. So even if iron ore prices are affected, they will still be able to sustain the project. So these are the kind of reforms.
00:32:31 In the other sectors, we have gone to make serious reforms in the semi-mechanised sector, which is a very disorganised sector. That's not true mining. We are trying to bring into play a level ground where people, even though they are doing it at a small scale, should repair the environment and should do projects that are beneficial to the community in which they are working.
00:32:55 We have said this. We recently held a meeting on 6th September to involve all the millers involved in these areas to have a full mastery of everything happening in the area and see to it with our ministry officials that a simple basic principle is maintained to repair the environment while working and to initiate a social project,
00:33:23 which will benefit either the educational sector, where children are not going to school. Children should be given assistance to go to school by these groups rather than making children go to child labour. We have also put energy, they can supply basic energy to the communities. We can also look at the health sector where they can supply basic health.
00:33:48 So each person has to choose one of these categories which will be beneficial to the community. This is a major reform. In the quarry sector, we have decided to make sure that Cameroon is a very liberal country. People are exploiting our resources. Those in the cement factory, normally we have given them liberty to exploit the pozole and use it.
00:34:11 They don't pay anything for it. But you ask for a simple tax, which is called the extraction tax, which is just 300 francs per kilometre. I think that is just normal that they should honour this simple gesture by the state.
00:34:27 We see a lot of resistance. We recently tried to introduce, we are sensitising people about a way to allow us to know what these foreign companies are producing in our country. We are starting it first with the quarry sector. In future, as we are studying and experimenting the programme, we should be able to extend it to other things like sand and other things that are produced in bases.
00:34:55 As usual, people always resist to reforms. But we are taking the time from now to the end of the year to sensitise people. If this was done in full good faith, we see that the revenues of what this ministry offers, even before the main mining will start, will be tenfold.
00:35:19 Tenfold. Thank you Professor Foucault. Don't go away yet. You are giving an insight to the discussion that we have here. We have watched and listened to the Minister of Mines, Industries and Technological Development. He has talked about reforms.
00:35:39 We cannot wait to talk about the mining code. We are told that on the 1st of October, Cameroon is going to go through a kind of grilling to see whether the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative is going to validate the code or something of such.
00:36:01 If I make a mistake, some person who is a specialist should help me. What are the stakes? How prepared are we for the code to be validated by the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative? I begin with the person who is directly involved in mining, Dr. Foo Jonathan.
00:36:25 As I said before, the mining code is a document, a law that regulates mining activity in our country and which has been going through a lot of reforms since 2003.
00:36:45 Today, the code that is available is the code of 2016 which was promulgated in 2016. One thing we have to know is that this code...
00:37:01 Something happened to that code in 2021. What happened?
00:37:04 The code... Take for instance, Sonamine. Sonamine came after the code. Sonamine is the main actor in the mining sector. The code normally has to be updated to include Sonamine.
00:37:17 That was in 2021?
00:37:18 It is ongoing. The meetings that went on to examine these reforms. But as I said, there are a lot of difficulties on the field. Why? Because the decree of application of this code has not been published by the head of state since 2016.
00:37:36 You know, most of the provisions refer you to the decree and without the decree it makes it difficult to apply the code. However, it is being applied. Some difficulties are on the field and the current move to update the code will help maybe stabilize things.
00:37:54 I come back to my question. Cameroon will go through a kind of examination through the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative. With the difficulties you are enumerating, will that code be validated by them or will you do it our way without mining? What will they do?
00:38:15 Well, the code is out to address the difficulties which are known on the field. These difficulties are being examined currently and the code is not a single individual examining it. The code is a whole government. All the actors. The various ministries involved, be them scientific research, be them lands, be them mines and so on.
00:38:38 All these ministries are going to sit together, including the civil society. Each one will have to address the aspect that concerns them. When these problems are examined and adopted, then the code is sent to the parliament for it to be adopted.
00:38:55 I come to you Mr. Gweatpul. You were at the center of, I think if I make a mistake you correct me, elaboration of the code. From what Dr. Jonathan is saying, this code has problems. How did you come up with a code that is difficult to apply?
00:39:19 Yes, first of all I have to say that the mining code is the key issue to move from potential to value. I have not been involved in the 2016 mining code, but I have been involved in the 2001 code.
00:39:39 2001 code gave the impetus in the mining. I can say we moved from one industrial exploration license in Cameroon, since independence, to more than 200 from the code of 2001. We developed the mechanized small scale mining.
00:40:02 We developed many things. Many projects went on, but the 2016 code has no indication of success. So we have to take the success story, we make it again. I can say the code, we have to change fundamentally the orientation of the mining code.
00:40:22 Now, since independence we use the concession contract. That means the state has to gain from taxes and so on, and I can arrange my taxes as I want. We have to move from concession to production sharing contract.
00:40:37 Me, it's my personal point of view, we have tested and it's successful. We have tested with the mechanized small scale mining. From that, Cameroon has taken more than 1500 kilograms.
00:40:53 Now in the treasury, from that issue we have tested and Solamin is taking 25% of the production. Operators say it's too much. My opinion is that we have to go 80%, 20% and the operator does not pay any tax anymore.
00:41:12 Because we have to call the operators. So we have to move the orientation. To move from concession, we have given nothing to Africa, we go to the production sharing contract. This is what has to be done in the new mining code. This is my opinion.
00:41:31 I see you have your opinion. Thank you for straightening. The year of 2021, as I was saying, is 2001. We got that right. I'm going to move this forward, the debate, because we may not have so much time. Except that you are okay with the... Yes, you are not okay?
00:41:55 I'm not okay with the code. Okay, what are you not okay about with the code? I wanted us to go forward. First of all, Mr. Gweat talked about local content. Yes.
00:42:04 And when we look at what reports EIT have given from 2015 to the current, as money that is supposed to be given to the communities, councils, we discovered that only three councils, Garwa Bulai, Betare Oya, Ngura councils, that have acknowledged, have received the microcosm of what they have put in place.
00:42:33 Very good. But you know, I promised that we're going to talk about royalties and this falls under royalties. So why don't...
00:42:39 The code has a problem, as the doctor said, on text of application. What we are trying to decry from the studies that we did to get our credit is the simple fact that this code, because of the text of application, everything on the field is illegal.
00:42:58 But that is an overstatement. It is not, because we have carried out serious studies on that. And because of that, it brings back our country. Because the people that are supposed to use the code of the 2016, the artisanal miners, they sell out these rights to semi-mechanized miners, which the code doesn't give them authority to...
00:43:24 I think that's where you got it right. Instead of saying that a lot of what is happening is illegal because everybody acknowledges that, you cannot say everything. Can we withdraw and continue? Not everything at least.
00:43:37 No, I'm saying that because of the lapse that the code gives room for semi-mechanized, for artisanal mining, and it's these local people who take the license and sell them out to Chinese or whosoever that is practicing semi-mechanized mining, is not respecting any regulation.
00:43:59 So are you professing doom when Cameroon meets extractive industry of transparency?
00:44:04 I am not professing doom. We are trying to see that if we can make public, publish the text of application of the code, or the provisions that are inside should be, that the decree needs to reinforce, should be published before the 1st of October, it will help us move forward.
00:44:28 I'm going to give you time to recover your cup. Let us ask the minister who is on the line, maybe for one last time, let's ask the minister who is on the line.
00:44:46 I hear there is a problem Cameroon is going for a kind of validation on the 1st of October, and they are saying that our mining code has problems. How prepared, what are you doing sir, Professor Fou Kalistou Gentry, to make sure that when Cameroon gets to that appointment, we get through for the validation, to be transparent, you know, it's by a transparency agency.
00:45:15 How are you, what are you doing so that we get there and get validated, I mean our code?
00:45:26 Yes, there is a very interesting sector. The rules are simple. The extractive industry transparency initiative has given us a number of benchmarks to attain. And over the past 6 months we have worked, held a lot of sessions.
00:45:45 We did a last publication just last week. We will be holding another meeting next week. And the validation is supposed to start in October. We have brought in this past 6 months major reforms where we believe that the IAT initiative will be put directly under the supervision of the highest authority of this country.
00:46:10 A decree has been prepared to that effect. We have also honoured all the engagements where the Minister of Mines has to publish all our activities on our website, the number of companies in exploration, all the mining conventions that have been done, petroleum contracts, and all the criteria.
00:46:31 So we have started to do a checklist and see that each of the requirements of the International Secretariat for the Extractive Industry Transparency Initiative is followed. So coming October we are very confident that we will be in a position where Cameroon will be given very high marks based on the last sessions that we have held. We are looking forward to it.
00:47:00 I just hope that with that clarification you should wait to see on the 1st of October when the validation starts. You have been assured at least. You raised the issues, you are right to do that. Now we are going to take some time, 5 minutes, to talk about the setbacks to our mining. And I start with you, Dr. Livinus.
00:47:27 Yes, in fact mining is accompanied with a lot of crimes and a lot of irregularities. The first thing is the use of mercury and cyanide, that is used in amalgamating gold. And these toxicate waters, pollute waters that are around the lakes that they produce.
00:47:52 The other thing is that the code, the text of application, has not really given authority for them to refill the reclaimed holes that have been abandoned on the field. And it also creates a lot, a lot, a lot of obstacles for children to go to school.
00:48:16 If you want to go in detail on what the cyanide is causing, it will take us a whole lesson. There is the problem of the human rights abuses. The stipends that are paid to the workers, they are not regulated by any level of code. They can be dismissed at any time, no matter what crime.
00:48:43 Apart from being a whistleblower generally, have you raised this to the competent authorities?
00:48:50 We came up with a study, we came up with a study on credit and we have written a policy statement on it, which concerns, we have been holding a series of meetings where the mining forum in Betwa, we had another one in Hotel Marina, where we have tried to put up these policies.
00:49:14 But before I go, I would like, as a culturalist, to say that mining, extractive industries are doing harm to our culture. Because we came and we studied, we made a study that during the COVID period, the trees that the international community would talk of deforestation, these same trees are helping us to produce herbs and there is no indemnity paid on it.
00:49:40 The protection of traditional rights are very clear on the biodiversity conventions.
00:49:50 We are going to follow you on your report and make sure that as much as possible, because those are things we agree with, I'm going to move over to the extreme right of this set to meet Dr. Jonathan. We're talking about setbacks, some of these setbacks that Dr. Livinos-Isambe has enumerated.
00:50:10 Do you meet them on the field because you are a field person and how do you go ahead to solve them and what are the other setbacks that you can tell us?
00:50:22 Yes, there are really many setbacks in the mining sector and they concern the various aspects of mining. It could be at the level of exploration and exploitation. He has given some examples where our environment is destroyed.
00:50:42 We have child labor in the mining fields. When we go to the field, particularly in the gold fields, we find children up to five years old walking in the field. There are a lot of atrocities. They abandon their schools and they stay in the mining fields.
00:51:02 At the level of technology and finance, it's a problem because mining requires a lot of technology and a lot of financing. Those are the areas which the government is trying to grapple with.
00:51:17 How do you try to solve? When you go down to the field and you meet some of these things you've enumerated?
00:51:23 Of course, as the Minister says, they are trying to update the investors to ensure that those who are involved in mining are up to date. There is a lot of benchmarking that is done.
00:51:36 If there has been a lot of delay in our mining, it's because many fake investors come in. They come just to present themselves, get a mining permit, go to the stock exchange and the raise funds and they disappear.
00:51:49 Today, much effort is going on to ensure that competent and reliable partners are coming.
00:51:56 We go back to the legal framework, which has been well highlighted by Mr. Gwet. That is one of the major problems which is being examined.
00:52:06 The law must be updated, the application must be published to avoid disorder. We call it illegality but it's disorder. When the decree doesn't explain, doesn't precise what has been done, people do whatever they like.
00:52:20 These setbacks are there but they are being examined currently. If I take the case of Sonamin, we are on the field. The Director General, Mr. Bengweno, has introduced a project which is to eliminate child labour in the mining sector.
00:52:36 It is on a steady addition that will start tomorrow where we go on the field, we visit the mining companies and we try to educate them. We go to the schools, we give support to the schools.
00:52:48 We get the children, get rewards, the teachers are paid to assist them. All these activities are done to ensure that we limit or reduce considerably the damage that is being done to our children and to our environment.
00:53:02 Talking about the environment, the current court provides that companies that are exploiting the mines have to pay a certain fee before exploitation and this fee has to be used to rehabilitate the sites. If this is not implemented then the aspect of environment is really going to be...
00:53:22 ...and also that leads us, connects us smoothly to the last part of this discussion which is about royalties and you call it in your technical terms, sub-national transfers. We are going to handle that right away.
00:53:39 You will not imagine, I don't believe some of the things that I hear, that there are some areas in the country where what is extracted from there, the royalties are paid in other parts of the country to develop other parts of the country as if it was theirs.
00:53:56 It's not like saying that it should not be used for national development but that different localities benefit as if they were the ones living in that place. We are going to investigate to see how true this is.
00:54:09 But Mr. Ntepwet, you have been following this very well. In two minutes, tell us that there are quarters according to the law where each locality that owns a mineral should benefit. You can tell us, I know you know that.
00:54:31 Yes, Kiryan, me, I have to tell you this. You know, when you go to petroleum, we'll say it's contributing 500 billion to 7 billion in the budget of the Cameroon. When you go to solid minerals, what is the contribution? It's only talking.
00:54:49 Mining is economy, it's figures. So, there is something which is good now. I've told you, Kapam and Sunam, they have more than 1,500 kilograms of gold in the treasury now. This is a very good beginning. We have to improve this.
00:55:08 The minister said, following the instruction of the head of state, three industrial mining in the solid minerals has to begin this year because up to now we have no one really industrial mining. We are going to have the first one this year to begin. Those are the good, how to improve? We have to improve.
00:55:31 The problem we have to solve. Some of the details, I want to go to the heart of the problem of the mining. What is the contribution of the solid mining in terms of figure in the Cameroon economy? I think that is the real problem we have to focus on.
00:55:48 It's a big problem. I'm going to go to Mr Mbalambala in two minutes, please. Tell us what you know about these royalties because it's a bone of contention that the local community should benefit from what is extracted from their own locality.
00:56:08 That is what the mining code said. The mining code said that the local communities or the local council has the right to benefit from what we call royalties or subnational transfer in a certain level, 25% for the communities and 25% going to the community and 15% going to the local council.
00:56:36 So this is the provision. But so far as Dr Fru said just now, since the 2016 mining code has not been, the decree has not been published, this provision is very difficult to apply.
00:56:52 And Dr Livinu said out of, I would say, let's say 10 or 20 local councils around the extractive mining industry, in local, let's say, small scale mining in the east region, for instance, you have only three that has acknowledged getting some, I would say, some amount of money.
00:57:18 That is too bad. Only three is too bad. The minister is still there. We're going to get this before we go. You know, we have the coming court finals that is played this afternoon.
00:57:29 Please, if the minister is still on the line, let us get his opinion on this very serious matter, royalties, the subnational transfers, to know what he has to say about this accusation of the local communities, what are they benefiting, what is the plan for them to benefit from what they own.
00:57:54 The mining code has taken care of all this. I tell you the truth. At each level, care is taken. The royalties are meant for where this oppression is taking place.
00:58:06 The people that, let me even tell you the transition measures we are doing for semi-mechanised, we want that these social amenities projects, it's a kind of royalty.
00:58:16 The people who are suffering the effect of mining should have an immediate compensation. And we have gone further with that to say we are even looking at international finance, where we will be able to repair all the abandoned areas and transform them into modern farmlands.
00:58:36 And even set up industrial concerns along those lines. We are presently working and negotiating with the Ministry of Lands. It's a benefit that accrues to the people where the activity is found.
00:58:49 But that means while the taxes, which are corporate taxes, are paid to the State Treasury for the whole nation, the locality where this place is taking place has extra benefits because it's just that.
00:59:04 The council in that area has these special payments which is able to enable and sustain all the damages that are done to the place. So, royalties are clearly defined in the mining code.
00:59:19 When they are paid, part goes to the council, part comes to the Technical Ministry concerned and it's a very well defined thing in the mining code. Even right now as we talk, we do collect a consolidated tax.
00:59:36 Which those exploiting gold in Cameroon, 25% of the gold is collected as a consolidated tax. Of this, royalties are paid to the locality where this activity is taking place. Part of it is paid to the state.
00:59:55 This job is presently being done by Sonamin on behalf of the state. So, if I take a major mining project that will start like Sino Steel or Dijovic, the royalties are enormous.
01:00:09 They will be able to touch the life of the community. The community will develop projects. My only concern is that when these royalties are paid, there should be proper management of resources by the councils.
01:00:22 The councils must start looking for to take adequate staff which are involved in good development projects. I invite them to recruit mining engineers into their council sectors to see to it that their interests are well defined as the projects go on.
01:00:39 By the way, every subdivision in this country, we are working to see that whatever is found in their area, whether it's sand, whether it's gravel, as we continue to discover new minerals, should take a stick, be informed and be ready to get the maximum benefits from the mining industry.
01:01:00 Our lines for you, Mr. Minister, Professor Foucault, you could not hear us and the producer director could not even also intervene. Thank you, Minister of Mines, Industries and Technological Development, Professor Foucault, who is in terms of now.
01:01:22 Mr. Ntep Gwetpour, we are sorry we cannot continue on the headset because our time is up. You are Senior Mining and Geology Engineer. Dr. Fou Jonathan, who is Deputy Director General of National Mining Company Sonamin.
01:01:39 Mr. Mbalambala Jean, Civil Society Actor. And Dr. Olivier Nusse, a Sandbay Communication Partner to the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative, who is also a civil society, that's why he calls himself a whistleblower.
01:01:54 Ladies and gentlemen, that's what we made time for. You and press are today. Hope you learned something from today's edition of the program. There will be a rebroadcast on Monday. Thanks for watching.
01:02:06 [Music]