Sunderland legend Keira Ramshaw talks retirement decision and future plans
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00:20 Hello everyone and welcome to a very special edition of the Raw podcast.
00:38 Myself and my colleague James are absolutely delighted to be joined by a very,
00:42 very special guest.
00:43 A summer legend, over 200 appearances for the club's countless promotions,
00:47 countless titles, Kima Ramshaw.
00:49 Thank you very much for your time.
00:51 How are you doing?
00:52 >> I'm good, how are yous?
00:54 >> Yeah, very good.
00:54 I really appreciate you joining us.
00:57 It's obviously been a tough few weeks for you.
01:00 Obviously, you yourself and the club announced a couple of weeks ago that you're
01:03 retiring through injury.
01:05 Can we just start by talking through sort of the last few weeks and
01:09 how it's been for you?
01:09 Because obviously at 29, you obviously still had a lot of football left in you.
01:13 But at the same time, you've had an incredible career, haven't you?
01:16 And you've achieved so much of what you set out to achieve.
01:18 But what's it kind of been like the last few weeks for you?
01:20 >> I think when I first found out about how bad the injury was,
01:25 it was hard to take.
01:27 But as the weeks have gone on and I'm still involved with the club in different
01:30 ways and yeah, it's been hard to accept, I'm not gonna lie.
01:35 I did expect to be playing until I was about 35 and hopefully when Mel or
01:39 whoever would say you can't play anymore because you physically can't.
01:44 I didn't expect to then get told I needed to retire as such.
01:49 But yeah, it was gutting.
01:50 But the good thing is the team's in a very good place now and
01:54 we're doing very well.
01:55 And I can look back on my career and think, like you say,
01:58 I've had a marvellous time with Sunderland and 14 long years and
02:02 they've been absolutely amazing.
02:05 >> It's obviously been quite a long process, hasn't it, this injury?
02:07 It's not just one thing, you've been battling it for a while.
02:11 It must have been quite a tough sort of 12 to 18 months for you because I don't
02:15 think you had many issues with injury in your career at all,
02:17 had you really in the first sort of phases?
02:19 And then obviously this has been a bit of a battle.
02:21 Was there a moment where you kind of knew that you're going to have to retire or
02:25 has it been a little bit of a gradual sort of process of getting your head around it?
02:28 >> I mean, like you say, I've always been one of them players that ends up with
02:32 a broken nose and can play the week after or something like that.
02:34 I've never had a long term injury until the age of 28 really.
02:38 And that was when the first injury occurred on my ankle,
02:41 which I needed a full ankle reconstruction with the ligaments.
02:45 I needed bones removed from that surgery.
02:48 And then after that surgery, I was getting back into it.
02:51 I was getting back into preseason, I was feeling good.
02:54 But then the pain started and I realized quite quickly that because of the swelling
03:00 and things that there was something not right in there, then got sent for
03:03 another scan and unfortunately they found a different type of injury.
03:07 But one that was even worse than the first one,
03:10 which means that I had no choice really, because the choices were,
03:14 I could have an operation, but that would end my career anyways.
03:20 Or I can have the injections to take away the pain.
03:23 And that would also end the career because the injections would soften
03:26 the cartilage, which the cartilage is the problem.
03:29 So either way, I didn't have a choice, which was hard,
03:33 but all the girls have been amazing.
03:35 Mel and Steph have been fantastic.
03:37 Our general manager, Alex, has been so supportive.
03:39 And my friends and family, I can't thank them enough for being there.
03:43 And it is such a tough time, but like I say, the club's in a very good place
03:47 and it's exciting to see what they're going to do
03:49 and what they're going to go on to achieve.
03:51 It's obviously a really tough time for you, but you mentioned that
03:54 because of the process you've kind of been through.
03:56 Has it been made a little bit easier to have that clarity
03:59 over the last couple of weeks that although it's not the outcome
04:01 that you wanted, at least you can move forward now?
04:04 You mentioned that you're still involved very much with the club
04:07 and working with this team.
04:09 Are you able to move forward a little bit now that it's announced
04:11 and that you know what the outcome is?
04:14 Yeah, I think obviously pre-season I was obviously hoping to play
04:17 and had my season in hindsight, knowing that I was going to get back on
04:21 and going to get back into it.
04:22 And that was exciting.
04:24 And then it quickly got taken away.
04:26 And that was hard to accept.
04:29 But at the same time, yeah, now I'm coming to terms with it.
04:33 We've got a lot of things for myself to be doing around the club
04:37 and I'm supporting with the PGA.
04:38 I'm in and around the girls still and I'm supporting in different ways
04:42 from the sideline and hopefully that can still have an impact.
04:45 And it has been a long time to try and accept.
04:50 And that's why we've probably just announced it not long ago.
04:52 But at the same time, it was quite a shock for us as well.
04:58 You talk about coming to terms with this and accepting it, Kiera,
05:02 but I'm just wondering, have you had much time to reflect on your career
05:07 and how well thought of you've become, how well loved you are by Sunderland fans?
05:11 I mean, I remember you from Thornhill School.
05:13 I think you were the year below me.
05:15 And did you ever imagine then really that you would become this sort of
05:20 revered figure on your side? It's an incredible story.
05:23 I think when you look back and I think of where we've come from,
05:26 obviously being born and bred Sunderland,
05:28 I've been brought up in the middle of, right next to the city centre in Millfield.
05:32 And it's an area where you see Sunderland shirts every single week.
05:36 And then you're then going on to then play for the first team at the age of 16.
05:40 That was a dream come true because you're playing for the club you love,
05:43 you're playing for the club you support.
05:44 And for me, that was my dream fulfilled.
05:47 And yeah, it's been fantastic.
05:50 I mean, I've seen the club in full circle.
05:51 We've went from parents being chairmen and treasurers,
05:56 to then being paid, to then being in Super League One,
05:59 to then getting demoted, to then going into National League,
06:02 to then getting promoted.
06:03 So, yeah, we've done a full circle with the club and I've seen it many highs
06:07 and I've seen many lows.
06:08 But one thing I can look back on is when we did get demoted,
06:12 I then hoped and prayed and wanted to stay with this club to make sure
06:15 we got back to where we wanted to be.
06:17 And at the minute, I feel like we're in a very good place.
06:20 We're in the Championship, we're top of the Championship.
06:23 And yeah, I do believe that we can still make it to Super League One.
06:27 And that would be what I would aspire for.
06:32 You mentioned your role and involvement now.
06:36 What's that going to look like going forward?
06:38 Or is it something you're still working out as you come to terms
06:42 with the early retirement?
06:44 I think we're still trying to work it out as such.
06:47 But I have been doing a lot with the PGA and I've been in and around that.
06:52 I've been a bit of a player liaison still and helping out with the girls
06:56 and being around training still, being that familiar face,
06:59 knowing that the girls can still come and talk to us and being that link
07:02 between the first team and the staff as such.
07:05 So, yeah, it's a role that I still kind of feel like a player when it's not
07:09 actually the games and things like that.
07:11 But it's only when the games come around that sometimes I'm like,
07:14 'Oh, yeah, I'm staff, I'm not a player.'
07:17 So, yeah, it is hard to accept in that aspect,
07:21 but I'm sure in time it will slowly become easier.
07:26 You mentioned your story there, Kieran,
07:28 kind of the highs and lows you've had with the club.
07:30 That first spell, not only were you sort of fulfilling your childhood dream
07:33 of playing for Sunderland, it was obviously an incredible time for the club, really.
07:37 And you must look back on that era with a lot of pride,
07:39 because you and your teammates, when you look at sort of where
07:42 the women's game has gone to and what so many of those players have gone on
07:45 to achieve with the Lionesses, the legacy is not just for the club, is it?
07:49 It's for the country and for women's football moving forward.
07:53 It's amazing how big a role Sunderland's kind of had in that story.
07:56 Is that something that you kind of look back with a lot of pride to be part of that?
08:00 Yeah, definitely. I mean, like I say, it was like trying to keep the club afloat
08:04 as such when I was 16, doing backpacks and things and trying to bring in money
08:07 where we can and then seeing it from, like, especially on the back of the Euros
08:12 of where the women's game is now, it's only improving
08:14 and it's going to continue to improve.
08:17 We've got a lot of backing with the club.
08:18 We've got everything that we need in terms of facilities, training-wise.
08:25 We're fully integrated and we just couldn't ask for any more.
08:30 And I think when you've seen it from the point of parents running the club
08:34 to then being fully professional, it's amazing, really, when you look back.
08:40 And we have produced amazing players like Jill Scott, Lucy Bronze, Beth Mead.
08:45 And I've been lucky enough to play alongside most of them and Jordan Nobbs.
08:48 And the list's endless, to be honest.
08:50 We've created some fantastic players and we continue to do so.
08:55 You mentioned there, obviously, the demotion, the double relegation,
08:58 which was enforced by the FA.
09:00 Can you take us a little bit back to that time for you?
09:03 Because at that stage, you obviously could have gone and been a professional footballer elsewhere.
09:07 You almost had to choose, didn't you, between your full-time career and the club.
09:12 Was that difficult or were you always set in your mind that you were going to see this through
09:16 and that you were going to be here for the rebound?
09:18 I think it was never in question for us.
09:20 I know a lot of clubs did come and put things on the table to us.
09:24 And I got a lot of calls within that time.
09:26 And some of the girls didn't understand why I was staying,
09:29 because obviously we were no longer going to be getting paid and that type of stuff.
09:34 But I then went and got a job in a nursery full-time.
09:37 So, I could do it part-time for Sunderland.
09:38 And so, I was just training on the night times and then hoping,
09:43 in all hope, that we can get back to where we belong.
09:45 And I think that I contributed really well in the National League with goals and assists.
09:49 And the girls that stepped up from the development team to then become the first team
09:53 were absolutely phenomenal.
09:54 Some of them are still playing today, so that proves the quality has always been there.
09:59 So, yes, it's just to know that we then got promoted back to the championship,
10:03 that was a dream come true as well,
10:04 because then I felt like we were getting what we deserve and we're getting there as such.
10:10 And I still think we've got a long way to go,
10:13 but I also think that we're in a perfectly good place with the amazing backing.
10:17 And we've got fantastic coaches within Mel and Steph, brilliant general manager.
10:22 The club's in a very, very good place.
10:24 And although it hurts to retire in terms of medically retiring,
10:28 and to know that the club's in such a fantastic place,
10:32 it's kind of like a sigh of relief of retiring at a good time,
10:36 rather than retiring at a time where the club are not in a good place.
10:40 So, yes, it's bittersweet, really.
10:44 I was lucky earlier when the club announced obviously Katie Watson signing,
10:48 you know, her new contract, she's going to go professional.
10:50 Grace Ait, this is the same, isn't she, next year?
10:53 And does that leave you a lot of pride that the work you've done now is in a position
10:58 where the next generation of, you know,
10:59 some of the supporters who come through the academy won't have to make that decision
11:03 that you had to make between, you know, your career and the club?
11:06 It's potentially all going to be there for them.
11:10 Yeah, definitely. I think if you look at the PGA and you look at the 16-year-olds coming through now,
11:13 they've got everything they could possibly want in terms of, like I say,
11:17 they've got the facilities, they've got fantastic coaches, they've got physios,
11:20 they've got doctors, they've got the gym, they've got S&C, they've got everything.
11:25 And literally, the world's their oyster, really.
11:27 They can take it and grab it with both hands.
11:31 But yeah, like when Grace and Katie's got their contracts, that's amazing as well.
11:35 I know that Grace used to be one of them kids that used to, and Katie,
11:38 they both used to come and get selfies with us when I was back in the day.
11:42 And now they're going to have full-time contracts.
11:45 And that's just something that I can look back on and think, well, yeah, we've done something.
11:50 We've made an impact.
11:52 And now look where the club is.
11:54 And obviously, before I pass back over to James,
11:57 I think it's worth mentioning just how well the team's doing this season.
12:00 People will understand that at the same table, the same results.
12:03 But I imagine it is bittersweet for you because you would have been desperate,
12:06 especially after the last few years, to be part of this team that's doing so well.
12:09 But at the same time, because the club's able to offer professional contracts now,
12:14 the calibre of play who's come in, it feels like it's gone to the next level a little bit this season.
12:18 What's your kind of insight from working with and watching this team?
12:22 Yeah, I think obviously, if you look back to last season, we had a very, very bad season as such.
12:26 We didn't finish where we wanted to finish.
12:29 And then this season's just totally different.
12:32 We're sitting top of the Championship.
12:33 We're on an unbeaten streak.
12:35 The players that have came in have absolutely fitted in like a glove.
12:38 They've literally, they've came in and they're part of the Sunderland,
12:41 everyone that comes in is part of the Sunderland family.
12:43 But they've came in and they get the values, they get what this club's about.
12:47 And yeah, they've shown fight, determination every single week.
12:50 And I think the whole togetherness is absolutely fantastic at the minute.
12:54 And that proves it on the pitch.
12:56 And we've been picking up results.
12:57 And yeah, we're in a very good place.
12:59 And it is bittersweet.
13:00 I wish I could be on the pitch with the girls.
13:02 And that's a no-brainer.
13:04 But at the same time, I can look with pride on there now and know that the girls are going to pick results up.
13:11 We might even get up the Super League one.
13:12 You never know.
13:13 And so, yeah, I can look with pride and think we're in a very, very, very strong place.
13:19 And like I say, unbeaten, we couldn't ask for any more this season.
13:23 I'm super proud of all of the girls.
13:24 And I just hope that we can continue the unbeaten run.
13:29 How fundamental has Mel Rae been to all of this success?
13:33 Because just thinking off the top of my head, the sort of setbacks that she's had to endure along with yourself.
13:39 I mean, for instance, last season, losing you a captain to injury.
13:42 But there was the double relegation not coming up the next season.
13:47 Then there was COVID.
13:48 Then there's been a few high-profile exits over the years.
13:51 But she just always seems to bounce back.
13:54 And I remember last summer talking to Phil and we weren't at paddock stations, but we were sort of,
13:59 'Oh, there's a few variables now and what's going to happen?
14:02 There's a few players left.'
14:02 But she always seems to pull it out of her bag every summer.
14:05 What she likes to work with and how important is she to Sunderland?
14:09 You can always trust Mel to pull it out of the bag.
14:11 That's one thing she'll always do.
14:12 And I think she's Sunderland through and through.
14:15 She's literally, she's played for Sunderland before.
14:17 She's a bit like myself.
14:18 She knows, obviously, the whole background of the club.
14:21 And she's absolutely, I can't even put into words how amazing she is as a manager and a coach.
14:26 She's, in my eyes, one of the best in the league, if not the best in the league.
14:31 And I would happily say that to anybody.
14:33 I think she's made such a big impact on my career on and off the pitch.
14:37 And I know she's done that with a lot of the girls.
14:40 But yeah, like you say, she's experienced it as well in a full circle motion.
14:44 She's been part of the club throughout different stages.
14:47 And she's never, ever once turned her back on it.
14:49 She's always wanted to bring it back to where it needs to be.
14:52 And she's done a fantastic job in that.
14:54 I mean, last year would have been hard sitting where we were in the league.
14:58 And then this year, you just know that she's going to turn it around.
15:01 And the players that she's brought in, her and Steph, have been absolutely phenomenal.
15:05 And we're sitting top of the league.
15:06 And yeah, she doesn't give in.
15:09 And that's what the whole Sunderland approach is.
15:12 She doesn't give in.
15:13 And we're all together.
15:14 And yeah, I couldn't sing our praises enough, because honestly,
15:17 I think she's an absolutely phenomenal woman.
15:19 And she's an absolutely amazing character, amazing manager.
15:23 And yeah, we've got the best for us.
15:26 I know the injury news is still pretty raw,
15:30 and that you might not have had a chance to think about this much.
15:33 But you mentioned similarities between the two of you in terms of your pathway,
15:37 maybe even your personalities as well.
15:39 Could you see yourself doing a role along the lines of Mel Rea in the future somewhere?
15:44 Or at Sunderland? Has that thought ever crossed your mind?
15:47 I think at the minute, I think her and Steph are absolutely like double team to the max.
15:52 I think they're an amazing partnership.
15:54 They've got an absolutely fantastic way of working with each other.
15:57 And they just bounce off each other.
15:59 But also, they get the quality.
16:02 They get the quality out of the players.
16:03 They get the quality out of the sessions.
16:05 And yeah, they're doing really well.
16:07 And I do think Steph and Mel are a complete dream team.
16:10 And I think they will take this team to new heights.
16:12 And yeah, if I can be in and around that, then that's amazing.
16:15 But I'm not stepping on any toes and not trying to be anybody.
16:19 But I know that the club's in safe hands with Mel and Steph.
16:21 One of the things that Mel said to us in the press conference after you retired,
16:26 Kiera, was that what's so important is that you as a player,
16:29 because of that history you have with the club, when new players come in,
16:32 when young players come through, you can tell those stories about the history of the club
16:36 and the background and what it means to play for the shirt.
16:40 Is that a big thing for you personally as well, that you're almost carrying that,
16:43 carrying the badge, if you like, and helping instil what it means to represent
16:47 Sunderland and where it's come from and all those kinds of things?
16:51 Yeah, I think Mel's saying that as well, because she's also experienced it from that point of view.
16:55 She's experienced it by getting on minibuses and going to games and four people sharing
17:00 in one room and things and doing backpacks.
17:02 And Mel will say that because she knows that I've experienced it from that point of view.
17:07 But also it's important that the players know where the clubs came from.
17:11 It's important that they know the background.
17:13 It's important that they know how many things were put on the line for them
17:17 and how the club at one point nearly folded years and years ago.
17:20 And that didn't happen.
17:22 And we're now where we are.
17:23 And yeah, I think if we can instil the Sunderland family feel and the approach,
17:28 and yeah, I'll continue to tell the stories.
17:31 I'll continue to share the background and I'll be there as a supportive player,
17:36 supportive friend and supportive staff member in terms of just being there
17:42 and hoping that they can take something from the past and make it...
17:47 Because they're coming in now and like I say, they've got everything in their hands basically
17:52 and it's whichever way they want to use it.
17:54 And that's a fantastic feeling.
17:56 Some of them, when I'm talking to them and I say, yeah, we used to do backpacks,
17:59 they're like, what? Why?
18:01 It seems incredible now, doesn't it?
18:04 Yeah, some of them don't understand that we used to train in different places
18:08 or we used to get the men's kit and things like that handed down.
18:14 Or one person used to wash the full kit every week, that type of stuff.
18:18 So yeah, when you put it into perspective with things like that,
18:21 I think it's important that they know where the clubs came from
18:24 and how important it's been to get here.
18:26 Kiera, before we let you go, we've got a few quickfire questions for you
18:32 just to reflect on your career a little bit.
18:34 So I want to start off.
18:35 What's your favourite goal in Sunderland Sheriff?
18:38 Is the one that springs to mind?
18:40 Oh, I'd have to say the volley against Millwall that got us promoted.
18:45 We won 4-0 in that game, but I think it was the third or fourth goal.
18:48 And we got...
18:51 [AUDIO OUT]
18:54 Sorry, Kiera, we just lost you there.
19:05 I don't know if that was me or you.
19:06 But OK, so we've got favourite goal, favourite game.
19:12 Would that be the same one or is there another one?
19:13 Or favourite sort of day of your career?
19:15 That is one.
19:16 Favourite game would probably be the first game in Super League One
19:21 when we were live on BT Sport and we won Liverpool 2-1.
19:24 I think because coming from Super League Two,
19:26 you're then not knowing what to expect in Super League One.
19:29 And we're then on BT Sport and thinking, well, what on the telly?
19:32 What's going on?
19:33 And then, yeah, we won 2-1 against, at the time,
19:36 Liverpool were very, very much at the top end of the table.
19:39 So, yeah, that was a surreal feeling.
19:42 And I think beating Chelsea 4-0 also stands out
19:45 because I think even that game, every time we scored,
19:48 we were like, what's happening?
19:49 It was one of those games where we didn't quite understand it ourselves.
19:53 But, yeah, it stands out because, like you say, from where the club's been
19:57 and then especially them games in Super League One
19:59 where we've beat teams where we're on paper probably never should,
20:03 they stand out.
20:04 Best player you ever played against?
20:07 Oh, that's a hard one.
20:14 I'd say Lucy Bronze.
20:15 You can give me a couple if you want.
20:16 You don't have to.
20:17 I'd say probably say Lucy Bronze just in terms of I used to always play on the wing
20:20 and Lucy Bronze was always one that would never stop up and down constantly.
20:24 And she's got everything about our game, really.
20:28 She's quality.
20:29 Is there anybody you dreaded playing against?
20:31 You thought, like, I'm going to get kicked here?
20:32 No, not really, I don't think.
20:38 That's probably been a mack 'em, though.
20:40 That's probably been something.
20:41 You were doing the kicking.
20:43 Yeah, no, I never really dreaded anyone coming up against,
20:47 but it was more just as a team, we were thinking,
20:49 oh, we've got Chelsea, we've got Arsenal or whatnot.
20:52 And it was that type of feeling.
20:53 But then the fight and determination that we all had for each other
20:56 showed in games and we've grinded results and we've grinded it out.
21:00 Kiri, you've been really generous with your time.
21:04 Thanks so much for coming to join us on the podcast.
21:07 And obviously we wish you all the very best.
21:09 I know this is very much just not the end of your Sunderland story, is it?
21:12 It's about the next chapter now.
21:14 Yeah, thank you so much for having us.
21:17 Thanks, Kiri.
21:19 Thank you.
21:20 Well, that was good for her, wasn't it?
21:30 It was, yeah, I think it's...
21:33 I think it's incredible.
21:36 I think Kiri is the phrase 'full circle', doesn't she?
21:39 And I think that's the amazing part of her story,
21:41 that not just to go through an incredible rise
21:44 and then the decline of the club as well,
21:46 but to bring it back to where it is now,
21:48 where realistically we're looking at thinking
21:50 maybe this could be a Super League club in four or five years
21:54 is an incredible thought, isn't it?
21:56 It is, and I think hers is just an incredible story.
22:00 You should mention the backpacks and just playing purely for that amateur love of it,
22:06 really, but without any of the recognition, because there was none of that.
22:10 It was literally played in front of a man and his dog and a couple of parents,
22:14 and her generation of football players deserve huge credit
22:18 for growing that and sticking with it and playing for the love of it
22:22 and coming under, flakking under fire in some cases,
22:25 but rising above it and just letting their talent do the talking.
22:29 And thankfully now we're seeing women's footballs explode
22:32 in left, right and centre, which is great.
22:33 But I just think as well, her story's such a unique one in modern football.
22:39 The fact that she stayed at Sunderland to stay and fight for the club,
22:43 turning down riches as well.
22:45 I just went up riches, but you get what I'm saying,
22:48 regular full-time money, which would have been significant for her.
22:51 I just find that absolutely incredible.
22:54 The loyalty to Sunderland is amazing.
22:56 It's a fine line, isn't it?
22:58 Because obviously that is just an amazing thing
23:01 and something that we've sort of praised and rightly so.
23:05 But also it sits against the fact that it should never have had to happen,
23:08 should it?
23:09 And I think that's a big part.
23:10 And I think that's one of the big things about Kiera's legacy really,
23:13 is that, like I say, the next generation of Kiera Ramshaws
23:17 don't have to make that decision.
23:19 They don't have to choose between playing for the club that they love
23:22 or being a professional.
23:24 And I think that's what's so exciting when you see the professional contracts now.
23:28 And as Kiera herself said, there's obviously still a long way to go.
23:32 I think Sunderland is still very much in the rebuild phase
23:35 that we've talked about.
23:36 And there are some clubs that I think are further ahead in terms of
23:38 being professional for longer.
23:39 They probably have bigger budgets.
23:41 But I think we're starting to see Sunderland catch up at quite a rapid pace, actually.
23:46 And this season, I mean, you alluded to it there with Kiera James.
23:49 We were looking in the summer and we were, I wouldn't say panicking,
23:53 but there was a lot of concern.
23:54 It was a poor season last year.
23:56 A lot of the ball that side left.
23:58 - Niamh Heron-Gordon, for one, that was a huge blow at the time
24:02 because she's such a talented footballer.
24:05 - Yeah, absolutely.
24:06 And, you know, if you looked at the team that sort of played the vast majority
24:09 of games last year, you know, five or six of those all left at once.
24:13 But to be fair to Mel, you know, when we spoke in pre-season,
24:17 she was really confident that they'd signed a high calibre of player.
24:20 I think the question mark was how quickly can they gel?
24:22 I don't think Mel was worried whether these players were going to be good enough.
24:25 I think the obvious worry was, are they going to look like a team?
24:27 Because they've all come together.
24:29 Obviously, a lot of them, as we've discussed with a lot of the men's players
24:32 who have signed, it's big upheaval in the life movement at Sunderland.
24:36 And I think that's been kind of the truly remarkable thing,
24:39 that they've so quickly looked like a team.
24:41 And I'm sure Akira is sort of a big part of that in terms of the work she does
24:44 off the pitch as well, in terms of bringing everyone together.
24:47 And, I mean, it's just a really exciting question.
24:49 Can they sustain this?
24:52 I think all season so far, we've been kind of looking and thinking,
24:56 almost waiting for that bump to kind of go, 'OK, back to reality a little bit.'
24:59 But it's over a third of the way through the season.
25:03 And I do think when you look at the league, I think teams like Birmingham,
25:08 who we all expected at the start of the year, started slowly,
25:12 but are now beginning to get consistency.
25:14 So you kind of think that there are three or four teams there
25:16 who are going to push up to the top.
25:17 But I think you have to say that the Sunderland side now, they're there on merit.
25:21 It's not fluke. They haven't just got lucky for a few weeks.
25:24 They've been really competitive in every single game we've played.
25:28 And I think it's worth remarking on, isn't it?
25:30 Because we were very much at the start of the season looking at thinking,
25:33 just stay in this league.
25:35 Obviously, their allegation spots have gone up to two this year from one,
25:37 which was a bit of a concern, I think.
25:40 But they've left that well behind them.
25:42 I think what I like most is the conviction of this current setup,
25:48 of this current side, because as we've both talked about in the summer,
25:52 we were looking at, I think, what's going to happen here.
25:54 And rightly so.
25:55 But the club have had that conviction.
25:57 Mel Rea had that conviction.
25:58 They weren't going to be deterred.
26:00 They knew exactly what they're doing.
26:01 They had a plan in place.
26:02 They knew there was going to be some flux.
26:04 They just kept their head down, did the work.
26:06 And I think crucially as well, you know, we on this podcast,
26:10 we love a good structure.
26:11 We love a good plan.
26:12 We love a good model.
26:13 But there seems to be that sort of, that work has been done with Sunderland women
26:18 and continues to be done.
26:20 They're very much part of Sunderland now.
26:22 They're very much sharing resources.
26:24 It's sort of that one club feel.
26:25 And Mel Rea is now being supported, which she might not say on record,
26:29 but I'm sure she may not have always felt supported to the degree
26:32 she's being supported now.
26:33 I'm thinking of, you know, under Ella Short when she was coaching
26:36 and then came into the management.
26:37 And there was Stuart Donald and Charlie Methven where Sunderland women
26:40 were sort of in this limbo state.
26:42 But now it really feels like Sunderland are geared up towards success
26:48 and a decent stab at the championship.
26:50 As you say, you know, whether they can keep it up long term
26:53 over the course of a season is, you know, remains to be seen.
26:57 But it's still hugely exciting.
26:58 You know, they're playing really well.
27:00 They're picking up points.
27:00 They're undefeated.
27:01 They've got these young players and they're signing young players to contracts.
27:05 I mentioned Katie Watson, England Youth International.
27:08 And, you know, it's, I think perhaps we fall into the trap of looking at women's
27:15 football in terms of this women's football revolution and that Sunderland
27:18 should be, you know, paying money and all of this sort of stuff.
27:23 But perhaps we have to be sort of realist and realise that it does happen
27:27 incrementally.
27:28 And I know there's been a sort of hybrid model at Sunderland,
27:30 hopefully with success that can change it to being a full, full time model.
27:36 You know, and things can progress that way.
27:38 It's a very, very sort of nuanced thing, isn't it?
27:42 I think it's a fine line, isn't it?
27:43 Right. Because I think part of the problem, what you don't want to happen is,
27:48 and I think we have seen this at other clubs that have kind of had financial
27:52 difficulties, what you don't want is the fate of the women's club being
27:55 essentially tied to the men's club.
27:58 So you want it to be able to stand on its own two feet so that nobody can just
28:01 decide, you know, to kind of pull the plug on the operation.
28:04 And I think that's a really important thing.
28:05 Which is what happened at the Short, isn't it?
28:07 And I think realistically that you're not going to get there overnight.
28:11 That is going to take time, but you also need to invest a certain level in it
28:15 to grow it.
28:16 And I think the encouraging thing is that's what we're seeing now.
28:19 But I think there's still a huge amount of work to be done.
28:22 You know, I think there's lots of questions, aren't there?
28:24 Is, you know, for example, is Ebbleton really an appropriate place for,
28:29 you know, such an upwardly mobile football team?
28:32 I'd argue probably not, mainly because of, you know, public transport links.
28:36 So I think...
28:37 It's a pit.
28:38 I guess people aren't going to attest to that.
28:40 I think, especially on a Sunday, I'm sure a lot of people are going to attest to that.
28:45 So I think, you know, what I'm trying to say there is, you know, we shouldn't...
28:49 I don't think there should be any complacency.
28:50 I think something that's still got a huge amount of work to do to kind of
28:55 fulfil that legacy, if you like.
28:56 That, you know, not just Kiera, but all the players and coaches of that generation
29:01 have left behind.
29:02 But I think it is a really exciting time.
29:05 And yeah, I think, you know, I think it's a great time to get behind the team.
29:10 If you haven't seen a game, we may just have put you off talking about Ebbleton.
29:14 But, you know, the football itself, the football itself has improved so much this
29:19 year, just because of that professionalisation.
29:22 You can see already that the recovery time the players are getting, the extra coaching
29:28 time, you're already starting to see players improve rapidly.
29:32 And it's a really exciting time for the club.
29:34 And I think, yeah, we'll just end by getting your reflections as well on Kiera's
29:38 career, James, because I think, you know, we use the word legend too much in football.
29:43 But I don't think in this case there's any doubt about her whatsoever.
29:47 Not only has she sort of lived our dream, but she's left a huge legacy behind her,
29:51 which is more than any player can expect to do on the side.
29:55 Yeah, it's a bit surreal for me, actually, sort of having followed the whole of her
29:58 career. As I say, I was the year above her in secondary school at Thornhill.
30:02 So I do remember her vividly, actually, and I do distinctly remember her being a good
30:07 football player.
30:09 And then sort of your late teens, your early 20s.
30:11 And I remember playing for Sunderland and thinking I used to go to school with her.
30:16 And then there was the big story with Ellis Short.
30:18 And you start to take an interest a little bit more because you're getting a bit older
30:22 and things are starting to affect things.
30:24 And then you actually started to watch her play.
30:28 And I started to watch her play around that time.
30:30 And when Sunderland had just been, you know, kicked down to the third tier from the first
30:34 tier through no fault of the road on the football field.
30:38 And you just thought she is a cut above anybody in this league.
30:41 She was absolutely sensational.
30:42 She was good for multiple goals at assists on a day.
30:45 She would be deployed up front.
30:46 She would be deployed off the striker.
30:48 She would be deployed on the left.
30:50 She'd play hold of midfield.
30:51 She would inspire everybody around her.
30:54 You know, we say she was an experienced player in that side.
30:58 And I guess she was because of the amount of experience she'd had and the number of
31:03 appearances. But she was still only really young at that point as well to conduct herself
31:06 the way she did. She was only about 24, 25 when that was happening.
31:10 And then, you know, came the Donald and Metheny era to stay loyal through that.
31:14 Just superb. And, you know, it bothers me actually that there was the great sort of
31:20 lost Sunderland women's season during COVID when Sunderland were flying at the top of
31:24 the third tier.
31:25 They were going to absolutely walk that division, having narrowly missed out the season
31:29 before. They were also in the final of a cup.
31:32 And then women's football became a casualty of COVID.
31:36 And that season was curtailed, expunged from the records.
31:40 And maybe that perhaps was a slight regret of hers that we didn't get to ask.
31:45 But yeah, just fond, fond memories.
31:47 And I think she will go down as one of, you know, Sunderland women's greatest ever
31:53 players, if not Sunderland women's greatest ever player, given the length of servitude.
31:57 And an icon on Weah's side, really, for what she has achieved.
32:01 And, you know, a trailblazer in her own way.
32:03 People talk about Jill Scott being a trailblazer.
32:06 Absolutely correct.
32:07 But, you know, Kira's path has been slightly different, but I don't think she's any less
32:12 of a trailblazer for what she's done for women's sport in Sunderland and women's
32:18 sport in the North East.
32:19 It's a sensational sort of body of work to have when you're 29.
32:23 It's really impressive.
32:26 Well, I think we'll call it a day there so that you don't have to say a trailblazer
32:29 anymore because it's a huge issue.
32:30 I know, I couldn't speak to that.
32:32 Terrible, terrible.
32:33 Mel Rae described her as the most important player ever to play for Sunderland.
32:38 And I think that's a fantastic way to describe her impact and her legacy.
32:41 So I think all that's left for us to say, James, thanks to everyone who's listened.
32:45 And we really hope you've enjoyed it.
32:46 And certainly really enjoyed putting it together.
32:48 And I'm really grateful to Kira for her time.
32:51 And I know it's been a tricky few weeks for her.
32:53 And we look forward to seeing what the next sort of chapter in her Sunderland story is.
32:57 So we'll be back later this week, I think, with a Norwich City preview.
33:00 And then I imagine next week we'll be back to sort of really go through the last three
33:04 or four Sunderland games and have a look where everything's at.
33:08 So, yeah, Joel will be back with your Norwich preview later in the week.
33:11 And then hopefully we will be back to talk about how Sunderland ended their frustrating
33:16 run with an absolutely thumping victory.
33:18 Fingers crossed.
33:19 (birds chirping)