Reaction to Tony Mowbray's sacking at Sunderland and next head coach search assessed
Reaction to Tony Mowbray's sacking at Sunderland and next head coach search assesed
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00:20 Hello, Sunlun fans, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Echo.
00:37 My name's James Copley and I'm joined by my colleague Phil Smith.
00:40 The big news coming out of the Northeast this morning is that Tony Mowbray
00:44 has departed as Sundlun's head coach.
00:48 He departed late last night and handily me and Phil were both in bed and
00:54 didn't realize until this morning, which was great, wasn't it?
00:57 >> It's been a long few days and a long few weeks on the road with someone,
01:02 then we've got some more long trips and long days ahead.
01:05 So yeah, not ideal, but we all need to sleep at some point, even me.
01:11 I need to sleep sometimes.
01:13 >> Yeah, big shout out to our boss Richard Manea for sorting all of that last night
01:17 while we were blissfully unaware.
01:19 So Tony Mowbray, 15 months in charge, 65 games, 28 draws, 18 losses.
01:26 I could probably do with looking up his wins there, I didn't write that down.
01:29 Anyway, I'll come back to that.
01:30 Christ, this is going well.
01:31 Win percentage of exactly 40%, sixth last season and the playoff semi-final loss.
01:36 Two wins in his last nine, ninth in the league and
01:40 three points off the playoffs currently.
01:43 Is it harsh or not, Phil?
01:44 >> Yeah, it is, of course it is.
01:47 But I think that everybody knows that this is probably more a decision about
01:53 culture than it is purely about results.
01:55 I mean, the stat you mentioned about two wins in nine is definitely relevant.
01:59 There's a reason they've made this decision now.
02:00 After all, it was a bit of a frustrating week.
02:03 But even within that, should never have got beat at Plymouth.
02:06 Mowbray had no part to play in the Huddersfield buildup because he had
02:09 a nasty chest infection and he was basically bedridden.
02:11 And then a point away at Millwall, which I think in isolation,
02:16 even if there was some concerns with the performance,
02:18 I don't think anybody would say is a dismal result.
02:21 So it is harsh, it's harsh by any measurement.
02:23 Tony Mowbray took over a team that was expected to be at the lower end of
02:27 the table in a very difficult moment after Alex Neil's sudden departure.
02:32 He took them to the playoffs, albeit on a lower points total than you would normally
02:35 expect, but even so a huge overachievement.
02:38 He had played some of the best football we've ever seen.
02:41 He lost Ross Stewart, he lost Ahmad,
02:44 he lost some of his most experienced voices in the dressing room.
02:47 And he kept the results pretty much rolling.
02:48 And the one thing I wanna say to show that, of course, it's harsh.
02:52 If you go on, if you look at White Scouts models,
02:55 Sunderland have the youngest average age in the division this season.
02:58 And yet they have the third best expected points total.
03:02 So Mowbray was doing a good job and he was performing well against a lot of
03:05 the things we know the club are looking for and that's a fact.
03:08 But at the same time,
03:09 I think there's a reason why none of us were absolutely stunned when we saw the news.
03:13 Because I think Mowbray was appointed really as a transition manager to handle
03:17 that transition from Alex Neil leaving sooner than anyone expected.
03:21 And I think the fact that Sunderland were being linked with new head coaches last
03:25 April told you that really Sunderland had a different idea for the long term.
03:30 And I think a lot of us have been expecting this at some stage and
03:33 we've expected the next head coach when they come in to be a sort of young,
03:37 inverted commas, up and coming, very much a trust the process coach, if you like.
03:44 Given the way that the recruitment's gone and
03:45 the very different dressing room you have at Sunderland now,
03:48 I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was a multilingual head coach.
03:51 I think that's potentially something that the club will be looking at.
03:54 And so I think there's two sides to this.
03:56 One is that, yeah, it's absolutely harsh.
03:58 It's undoubtedly harsh and what an amazing job Tony Mowbray's done and
04:02 what a platform he's left for whoever comes behind him.
04:05 But at the same time, I think we all know enough about how Sunderland operate now
04:08 to go a little bit beyond the knee jerk and
04:10 to understand that they don't make decisions based on results in a week.
04:14 This has been, it might be the results in the week might be the reason why it's
04:17 happened now, if that makes sense, but that's not why they've made the decision.
04:21 It's a cultural thing and I'm not right now getting into the good or
04:26 the bad of that, everyone will have their own opinions.
04:28 But I think we all understand that this isn't a club that reacts to a couple
04:31 of results and that tells you that this is something they've been thinking about for
04:34 a long time and we kind of knew that anyway.
04:37 And because of the kind of persistent speculation we've had around Mowbray's
04:40 position for going on six months now.
04:42 >> Yeah, absolutely.
04:44 The stat I mentioned earlier that I managed to fudge at the beginning of the podcast
04:48 was that Tony Mowbray's Sunderland record played 35, won 26, drawn 18, lost 21.
04:54 So win percentage rate of 40%.
04:58 We'll just have a little quick look at some of the fan reaction.
05:04 On Twitter, Chris Sims said he felt like the right and
05:06 was on the wall the past few weeks, seemed to have no plan B.
05:10 But to be fair, when plan A worked, it was good.
05:13 Hannah said it was the right call.
05:15 Leon Flint says joke of a decision.
05:17 George Clifford said he's a good man who's been hung out to dry by this season's
05:21 incomings and outgoings.
05:23 I'm sure we'll get on to a little bit of recruitment analysis soon, Phil.
05:27 But I guess this sort of speaks to your point there,
05:29 the couple of fan reactions I've read there.
05:31 It is very split and it is very mixed.
05:33 There's an acceptance that Tony Mowbray's done a really good job at Sunderland with
05:38 a really young squad, as you mentioned, but
05:40 results over the past sort of six games haven't been quite good enough.
05:44 And I think that comes against the stated aim of the Sport Director,
05:47 Christian Speakman, in the summer when he said that Sunderland want to be in and
05:52 around the playoffs and pushing for the top two.
05:54 And they've sort of dropped behind that pace a little bit with a busy schedule
05:58 coming up all over Christmas.
05:59 And unfortunately, it's meant that Tony Mowbray's lost his job.
06:03 Yeah, it's really interesting, that specific point, because this is, again,
06:06 what I'm coming back to when I say I feel this is more cultural than results driven,
06:10 because we know Sunderland are a data driven operation.
06:14 They believe heavily in statistical analysis, data analysis.
06:18 Now they'll have more sophisticated models than we do, and
06:20 maybe they're saying something a little bit differently.
06:22 But I've just mentioned that all data suggests that Sunderland are better than
06:26 the results have been, and that's what really interests me about this decision.
06:29 Because if the stated aim is to progress this team, then by any statistical measure,
06:35 that is happening under Tony Mowbray at Sunderland this season.
06:37 They've got a better XG, they've got a significantly better XG against.
06:40 They're having more touches in the opposition box,
06:42 more entries into the final third.
06:44 They're creating better chances.
06:45 Where we seem to have got a fracture is that almost is what's responsible for
06:53 the fact that Sunderland aren't getting the fruits of that labour.
06:56 Mowbray's view is that we've got an experienced striker, so
06:58 I'm ready for the championship.
06:59 My suspicion is that the reason he's gone is because that's not how the club
07:02 hierarchy see it.
07:04 And I think that's really interesting in terms of what happens next.
07:08 And because everyone's seen the course, I think Mowbray speaking after the Millwall
07:12 game, essentially saying, yeah, I think we would get better results if I just went
07:15 with Pritchard and Dak up front.
07:17 But he doesn't feel he can do that.
07:19 So that's a really, I hope we get the chance to put that question to the club
07:22 actually at some point, because I think that's really fascinating.
07:25 Is where they see this, because by any measurement,
07:27 Sunderland were improving the season,
07:29 arguably with the weakest team without Ahmad and Stewart.
07:32 And so that's one of the fascinating things.
07:33 But again, that just underlines to me that I'm sure people already kind of
07:36 understand there's a lot of cultural stuff.
07:38 It's about the way that Kyrill and Christian want to run the club,
07:42 how they want things to operate behind the scenes, quite intangible almost.
07:46 I think stuff that's hard to discuss.
07:49 But yeah, it's about, I think, how they see the club operating in the next three
07:52 to five years, as much as it is about how they performed against Huddersfield,
07:56 if that makes sense.
07:57 No, it does.
07:58 You mentioned there, Phil, about the statistics, the xG, the xG against
08:01 Sunderland having a young team, all these metrics that we can sort of throw
08:06 together and say Sunderland are improving or have improved or are a good side,
08:11 but have just been lucky in terms of hitting the post and the woodwork about
08:14 nine times and not having a striker who's really sort of taken the club and ran
08:20 with it. But there'll be people listening to this podcast, Phil, that will say,
08:24 well, yeah, it's all good that the statistics are there and are positive.
08:28 But when it comes to the eye tests, Sunderland have maybe fallen a little
08:32 bit below par in recent weeks.
08:34 And actually, I think it is worth mentioning when it comes to Mowbray,
08:37 is that earlier on in the season, and I don't want to make excuses for anybody,
08:42 but he has had some horrendous luck in terms of refereeing decisions.
08:44 I know it evens out over the course of the season, but unfortunately for him,
08:48 he's not going to be here, and injuries, he's not going to be here for the season.
08:51 I mean, the Dan Neil red card against Middlesbrough, the penalty that wasn't
08:54 given against Leicester City.
08:56 It's, yeah, I mean, it just goes to show what football can be like.
09:00 It is so ruthless and so cutthroat.
09:01 You need a little bit of luck.
09:02 You need to pass the eye test and the statistics need to be good as well.
09:06 As you say, he hasn't kicked a ball yet this season.
09:09 Dennis Irkin's had injury problems.
09:11 Corey Evans, we could have used Corey Evans at many points in this season with his experience.
09:15 Jamie Tetty would have played.
09:17 Pierre Equa ended up sidelined for about five weeks with a dead leg.
09:21 But, you know, nobody saw the severity of that coming.
09:23 And there wasn't another real midfielder for Mo Britt to lean on in that phase.
09:27 So there were all of these things.
09:29 And, you know, it's interesting, and it is a lot about perception and people's opinions.
09:35 And I totally get that because I just see it differently.
09:37 I just think some of them have been unlucky this season.
09:39 They should have more points than they do.
09:41 And I actually think that's a really impressive achievement when you look at the
09:45 players who came in in the summer and the players who left.
09:47 You know, I think Mo Britt's done a fantastic job on that.
09:49 What we can say is that at a certain point, something becomes a pattern, right?
09:54 So at a certain point, it stops entirely being unlucky.
09:56 And you go, well, there must be some reason why you keep coming out on the wrong side of this.
10:01 And again, it just comes back to whether you believe the issue with the Strykers, for example,
10:05 in the finishing is that Mo Britt is too dependent on the wingers and he's not creating good enough chances.
10:09 Or whether you think the Strykers aren't ready.
10:11 My personal view to me is that I think the Strykers aren't ready.
10:15 I don't think you can expect much better service than Clark and Roberts.
10:19 And I think personally, what we're seeing a lot of the time is that the opposition centre
10:22 are just so strong and so much more experienced that they're able to manage those moments better.
10:28 And sometimes young Strykers, other people will see it differently and say that Mo Britt was stubborn
10:32 and they need to mix things up and find a way.
10:34 And I totally respect that as well.
10:36 And I guess that's what we're going to find out in the next six weeks, isn't it?
10:39 That's football. Someone will come in and hit the same issues and we'll look and go, well, what's happening here?
10:44 Or someone will come in and find some answers and we'll go, oh, well, fair enough.
10:49 So that's going to be, I guess, how this whole thing is defined, really.
10:51 And we won't know for a little while longer yet.
10:56 Excuse me while I just plug in, James, you continue.
10:58 No, that's fine. Well, I suppose the point to make, Phil, and we've made it before on this podcast,
11:05 in amongst managerial uncertainty and sackings, is that failure is actually collective at a football club.
11:10 And I think it's worth noting that a lot of people thought that Tony Mo Britt had the goal
11:17 because Sunderland weren't scoring goals through the Strykers.
11:20 But the players have to take a little bit of responsibility for that.
11:23 Christian Speakman, Stuart Harvey, the recruitment team have identified these players and they've not quite been ready.
11:29 So it's on everybody, really, as a club, in my opinion, players, manager and the board.
11:36 I think, you know, it's almost harsh to scapegoat one person.
11:40 But I think what we've been able to tell is that there has been, I don't want to say rift or disagreement,
11:46 because maybe that's too strong a word, but there's been something, there's been some sort of, you know, disagreement.
11:52 I don't think that's any secret. Mo Britt's come out and said it, really.
11:56 Difference of opinion is probably the best phrase.
11:59 And I think that all goes back to the summer, to the Luton game and the playoff semifinal.
12:04 What Mo Britt said after that, the uncertainty in the summer surrounding his job.
12:08 I just can't help feel that all of this has sort of, you know, become part of a wider picture.
12:14 And as you mentioned, the cultural factors there.
12:17 Yeah, I think so. And I think that the one thing I would say as well is that in a way,
12:22 I'm sort of pleased that there's been a decisiveness about this and that it hasn't been allowed to get too openly acrimonious.
12:29 And I think, listen, it's really difficult for Tony Mo Britt.
12:33 When you're in a press conference, when you've just drawn a game and you've got me sat there trying to work out why you've gone winless in a week,
12:39 and I'm frustrated and the fans are frustrated and you're saying, why don't you just pick Pritchard?
12:42 Why don't you just pick Dak? Because then that puts him in a difficult situation.
12:47 But I think what he said, I think, you know, he was probably edging towards kind of open rebellion,
12:54 you know, and saying, I don't think these strikers are ready, but I have to play them because that's the club philosophy.
12:58 And, you know, and that's another thing where it's really interesting, isn't it? Because Mo Britt does pick young players.
13:02 I mean, he does it repeatedly. Joe Bellingham, that was the first time he hadn't started a game on Saturday.
13:07 And that's what leans me towards kind of agreeing with Mo Britt on the striker issue,
13:12 because he's not someone who uses youth and experience as an excuse generally.
13:16 We've all seen managers who say that they want to play young players, but we know they don't mean it because they never put it into action.
13:21 You know, Mo Britt does. But I think at that point, yeah, he was edging towards the kind of open rebellion.
13:29 And I do think the speed of how it's happened shows you that both parties have kind of expected this for quite a while.
13:36 And it's almost as if as soon as there's been that little bit of fracture, as soon as the results have dipped,
13:40 as soon as everyone's stopped being able to kind of toe the line, it's almost been like, right, OK,
13:46 you know, we kind of know this is coming, so let's do it. And it is, I think, you know, it's a really sad day, I think,
13:55 because, you know, when people think back to Tony Mo Britt, you know, he'll be synonymous with free-flowing, attacking football,
14:03 with a team that was vibrant, was totally fearless, that people loved watching.
14:08 And more importantly than that, the way he conducted himself off the pitch from start to finish was just total class.
14:13 And I think he set the standard, really, for a Sunderland head coach in terms of the, you know, the way he connected with supporters,
14:20 the football he played. I really do think he set the standard, and we should always be looking for that now from a head coach.
14:26 We should always be saying, well, Tony managed it, so why can't anybody else?
14:30 You know, the humility he showed, the sense of humour, the quality of football, not make the results, let's not get round it.
14:36 With Sunderland's budget, the results were really good. With where Sunderland were right now in the Championship, the results were really good.
14:43 You know, and so I have mixed emotions because I am pleased that the decision was made,
14:48 given that I think minds were already made up, and I'm pleased that they haven't just let it drag out and get really bitter and openly acrimonious.
14:55 And I also understand that part of the reason why Mowbray's had success is because he had a group of talented young players, Ahmad, an outstanding signing.
15:03 Nobody wanted Ahmad after his loan at Rangers. People didn't know what he was about.
15:08 People didn't think he was good enough. It hadn't worked out. Why wasn't he playing at Rangers?
15:11 You know, any Championship club could have gone for Ahmad. Unbelievable recruitment.
15:14 There's lots of examples like that. He didn't really play for us until December.
15:18 Exactly right. So that was brilliant recruitment and Mowbray benefited from that.
15:21 So I have mixed emotions because I think you have to accept that, although it's been bumpy at times,
15:25 generally speaking, the change in strategy and the extra stability and everything that's changed behind the scenes has been a huge part in leading Sunderland
15:35 to a point where we can now realistically think of them as a potential Premier League club in the next five years.
15:40 And so I think there has to be an element of respect and trust when they make a decision like this, that there's a reason for it.
15:46 But I also do think that it's, you know, when someone of Tony's class and stature leaves,
15:52 it's a sad day and it's right that we mark the legacy he leaves and the standards that he set.
15:59 You touched upon it there, Phil, but, you know, Tony Mowbray, as a man, in your experience with him,
16:04 obviously you've been doing this job for a little while now. I think your first manager was David Moyes.
16:08 So you've been around the block a bit, obviously, Grayson Coleman, Jack Ross, Parkinson, Lee Johnson, Alex Neil,
16:15 and then Mowbray with a couple of caretakers in there for good measure.
16:20 How's he been to deal with, you know, on a human level and on a professional level as well?
16:25 Yeah, one of the best people I've ever had the pleasure of coming across in football by a long, long distance.
16:34 You know, I've been really fortunate really with some of the managers. Jack Ross was a real professional,
16:40 really good to deal with in a difficult situation. Chris Coleman was outstanding to deal with in a difficult situation,
16:46 albeit, you know, on the pitch it didn't work at all, did it? But I think Tony was very respectful.
16:57 He was very funny, which is not something, you know, I'd be the first to say,
17:00 is not something I really anticipated when he came in. I think Sunderland definitely got the best of Mowbray
17:05 because he'd had a long time in Blackburn where I think things had gone a little bit stale and arguably a little bit sour.
17:11 And I think he missed his family. I think he missed his home. He missed the North East.
17:14 He'd been living away. And I think coming back to Sunderland allowed him, I think it just totally reinvigorated with him.
17:20 He had these brilliant working conditions. He could drive to work.
17:23 He could go home and see his family. He was working with Clark, with Roberts, with Ahmad.
17:28 I think it just totally gave him his love for coaching and his love for management back.
17:33 And we all benefited from that because we got such a lively personality.
17:38 It's been by a distance, by a long distance, the best 15 months I've had in this job, by a long, long distance.
17:46 But also, you know, as I kind of said before, but part of that is because the structure behind him is right.
17:52 You know, you have to acknowledge that as well. It's not just Mowbray.
17:56 The reason why it's been such a good period is because Mowbray came into,
18:00 although it was very difficult in some ways with Alex Sneel's departure,
18:04 it was also quite a good environment in a lot of other ways because of the recruitment changes,
18:08 because of the general stability that the club had found, sort of a bordering level.
18:11 So we have to acknowledge that as well.
18:14 And, you know, there's no doubt that Mowbray is kind of one of the reasons why this has been such a fun time to be following Sunderland,
18:22 whether you're a supporter or a journalist or a player or whatever.
18:26 And there is something, I think, like I said, there is a small part of me that thinks,
18:31 well, if the decision was basically made, which I suspect it has been for a while,
18:36 then I'm glad that we get to preserve, you know, how, what a special time this has been,
18:43 rather than it be soured by a kind of, you know, a long and acrimonious ending.
18:48 No, absolutely. And I think it's probably worth talking about the players and their reaction and their relationship with Mowbray.
18:55 Phil, I've spoken to a couple of people on the periphery in and around Sunderland,
19:01 and the general feeling I get is that they were shocked, disappointed.
19:06 They all really liked Mowbray, especially, you know, the British players.
19:10 Obviously, his relationship with Patrick Roberts is quite clear. He's, you know, had got great things out of Jack Clarke.
19:16 We saw Luke09's interview where he wanted to say that, you know,
19:19 the unbeaten run started now and they wanted to really do it for Mowbray.
19:23 And, yeah, it's a shame for them as well, I guess, because I think Mowbray had cultivated a real strong team spirit off the field.
19:31 Obviously, that hadn't translated into results in the last six games or so.
19:34 But I do feel like this group is a good group and that they are together.
19:39 And he does leave sort of an attractive proposition in a way,
19:43 because they are well coached and they are a talented group.
19:49 Yeah, I think it'll be a really attractive job for head coaches. Really, really, really attractive.
19:53 There are some challenges. You know, you know you're going up against teams at the moment with significantly bigger budgets and more experienced squads.
20:01 But I think for any ambitious young head coach, you know, the platform that Mowbray leaves is an amazing one.
20:05 Pretty united dressing room, I think, albeit one that's changed a lot from Sunderland's promotion from League One.
20:13 And I go back to that point about maybe someone who can, whether it be because they're multilingual or whatever,
20:18 maybe someone who can sort of speak to all corners of the, all sort of sides of the dressing room, might be something that's looked at, I think.
20:28 But I think it's a really good group that anyone would be fairly lucky to pick up at this stage, I think.
20:34 And, you know, and obviously the interesting question moving forward is, is January and the summer going to be doubling down on this approach?
20:41 Is there going to be a little bit of a tweak to try and give the new head coach a bit more experience?
20:46 I strongly suspect it will be the former because absolutely everything they've done so far and continue to do suggests that they will double or triple down if they can.
20:54 But that's obviously going to be a really interesting thing to watch going forward. But I think it's a good time.
20:59 You know, normally managers say you get a job because everything's wrong at the club.
21:04 And for all the reasons that we've been outlining over the last 20 minutes, that is not the case at Sunderland.
21:08 You are actually picking up a club and a team where there was very, very little wrong with it.
21:12 There's one or two significant things wrong with it, and that's a big hurdle to overcome.
21:16 But generally speaking, you're picking up a club in a fantastic place.
21:21 Yeah. Shall we have some fun and have a little look at the names and do some speculation, Phil?
21:28 Oh, marvellous. That's exactly what I want to do right now.
21:33 Right. So I had some odds sent through to my inbox about two hours ago. They've probably shifted a little bit.
21:37 I won't go through the actual odds, but the first five names I was sent were John Eustace,
21:44 Nathan Jones, Neil Warnock, Paul Heckenbottom and Steve Bruce. Discuss. The floor is yours.
21:50 Well, I'm going to humbly suggest that it's more likely to be me and you as a managerial duo than Nathan Jones, Neil Warnock or Steve Bruce.
21:59 Listen, I mean, sometimes you just have to. It's not even stuff that's between the lines.
22:06 Sometimes just read the lines. Look at Kiril Luidreifus' statement where he talks about strong playing identity and also the environment of high performance.
22:17 Now, a lot of those managers you've mentioned I have utmost respect for because they've had exceptional careers and delivered exceptional results.
22:23 But I don't see any alignment between Nathan Jones in terms of playing style and where I think some of them want to go to.
22:31 And yeah, Steve, I mean, Steve Bruce is just not going to happen. Warnock is someone who I have an absolutely insane amount of respect for.
22:38 It's just not going to be someone of that profile.
22:40 Although he will probably throw his hat into the ring for the job at some point.
22:46 Listen, I would love it in a lot of ways. I have so much time for that man and it would be brilliant, but it's just not going to happen.
22:53 I suppose John Eustace and Paul Heckenbottom are much, inverted commas, better shouts in terms of I think they would fit the structure a lot better and have a lot more experience working within a structure like that.
23:07 My gut tells me it'll be someone not on that list.
23:10 My gut tells me that it's probably going to be someone that we don't know a huge amount about.
23:14 But to be fair, that's gut instinct rather than inside information at this stage.
23:20 Yeah, one of the bigger names on the list of bookies odds and just in the amounts of fans as well.
23:27 Probably unlikely, really, but ex-Brighton and Chelsea manager Graeme Potter.
23:31 I imagine he's probably unlikely. Yeah, I imagine he's probably unlikely.
23:36 Is that what you're saying? He's probably got bigger fish to fry at some point, given the job he's just left.
23:41 And the job he did at Brighton was absolutely tremendous, really.
23:45 I mean, Sunderland's set up and structure is good and it's positive and the recruitment is very modern, but I think that's a step too far, really, Graeme Potter.
23:55 Yeah, it's in that mould, but it's not going to be Graeme Potter.
23:58 It's not going to be Graeme Potter, I don't think. Well, maybe it may, maybe it will.
24:01 And everyone can laugh at me and it won't be much different to any normal day, so that's absolutely fine.
24:07 But I strongly suspect it's not going to be Graeme Potter.
24:09 But it will be someone in that mould. And I know a lot gets made of the moral.
24:12 And I understand why and we question it and we get frustrated with it.
24:16 And I get all of that. The reality is it's not really Sunderland's model.
24:19 It's the new model in football. And one of the reasons why Alex Neil went to Stoke was because that was one of the very, very,
24:25 very last clubs, even in the EFL, never mind just the Premier League and the top leagues of Europe,
24:30 where you can still go in and have total control as a manager. It doesn't exist anymore.
24:34 Just doesn't. Like, it just doesn't. It's not all, this isn't like, Sunderland have their own way of doing things.
24:41 And maybe it is a bit more extreme than some other clubs. But it's not a Sunderland thing.
24:45 It's football. So if any head coach now wants to get in the game and be a head coach,
24:49 they do so knowing that they're not going to have the final say on recruitment.
24:53 That they're going to have to play young players. It's just the new era of football.
24:59 Unless you're a top six club and you can afford to spend who you want.
25:02 You don't have to worry too much about development and all that kind of thing.
25:05 And so while I, you know, while we'll continue to discuss it and rightly so,
25:09 because we should always be scrutinising, I think it's important to say that I don't see that being an issue
25:13 for Sunderland recruiting a new head coach, because I think realistically,
25:16 that's what basically every aspiring head coach knows they're walking into now.
25:21 And well, I'm asking you this question, but I suppose I already know the answer really.
25:26 But the way Sunderland operate, Phil, they usually have an eye on the future, don't they?
25:30 They're going to have been profiling various different head coaches.
25:34 The process is probably underway and has been underway for months now.
25:38 That's not to say that Tony Mowbray's card was marked,
25:40 but that's just the way sort of modern football clubs do it within that model that we've just spoken about.
25:46 Yeah, and even when, even in that very difficult period with the Francesco Farrioli links and stuff,
25:51 and it was clear that that caused some issues behind the scenes,
25:55 even Mowbray said, look, one thing I would say is that the reason I got this job within two or three days of Alex Neil leaving
26:02 was because they'd obviously done their background research before Alex left
26:05 and I'd been identified as someone who had a record of stabilizing the teams in the Championship,
26:10 a record of developing young players.
26:12 So he kind of understood that he benefited from that process
26:15 and now he was probably coming out on the other side of it.
26:17 And I think he understood that. So yeah, it's quite difficult to say because I don't know what stage Sunderland are at,
26:25 as in have they already got a preferred candidate, in which case it would potentially move quite quickly,
26:30 or do they have a handful of potential candidates and are going to move into an interview process,
26:34 which would potentially be a week or so.
26:37 I think the timing of it is interesting because you've got three pretty huge games coming up and three very difficult games coming up.
26:43 Now, are Sunderland kind of looking at that going, well, this is going to be a very difficult period,
26:49 which sort of ironically gives us a chance to have a breath and try and find a new head coach,
26:55 or are they looking at it going, we've got three difficult games coming up,
26:58 we think we know who we want and we want them through the door right now to manage these games.
27:02 So yeah, that's going to be interesting. I suspect we'll know either way fairly soon.
27:07 I was going to say, I bet Mike Dodds isn't thanking you for the three games that's coming up.
27:10 Obviously, he's an interim charge for the moment. Whether he manages one of those games, we don't know.
27:16 But yeah, it's a tough assignment, really, for him.
27:20 Obviously, I think he lost both of his games when he had the role briefly in League One before Alex Nail came in.
27:26 I want to move it back to last summer, Phil.
27:30 We talked a little bit about the differences and, you know, young players versus experienced players and whatnot.
27:37 Sunderland decided to let Lyndon Gooch, Danny Barth go.
27:42 Obviously, Stoke City, where Lyndon Gooch has gone, they aren't doing too well at the moment.
27:47 And, you know, Norwich have been sort of so-so.
27:50 I'm not saying both players would have drastically improved Sunderland's fortunes over these games,
27:55 but there's a serious argument that suggests that they could have contributed off the pitch and on the pitch.
28:00 And that a lot of the time, well, most of the time, actually, Tony Mowbray has been warned against losing too much experience.
28:06 And it's also probably worth noting as well that had an offer come in,
28:10 Pritchard probably would have been allowed to leave in the summer as well.
28:14 You know, this recruitment team has brought some brilliant players in.
28:17 We've listed them earlier. We don't need to go through them again.
28:20 But you can turn the parameters and the dials a little bit too far sometimes and sort of run before you and walk.
28:25 Do you think that's happening? Do you think Sunderland need to be careful?
28:28 Is it something that the new coach is going to have to obviously, you know, try and take into account?
28:33 Yeah, I suppose it's interesting because I think we are, because I instinctively agree with you two next time,
28:37 particularly Pritchard, I think would have been a big miss if he'd gone.
28:40 Oh, massive.
28:42 Are we not at risk of being hypocritical because we've sat and talked about how generally the team's improved,
28:48 their control of games is better, pretty much everything about it is better up until the final third.
28:54 So are we not being hypocritical by then saying that, you know,
28:58 what they've done in recruitment is potentially wrong?
29:00 I'm asking that as a genuine question because my instinct is, well,
29:03 actually they've managed this transition and the performances have not got worse at all.
29:08 And I know some people will be listening and saying, well, it's about the results and I totally accept that.
29:12 So then we probably a better question is, is it less about experience?
29:18 And is it just more about the caliber in both boxes at the moment?
29:23 That's my instinct. And I suppose you could say that the two go hand in hand,
29:27 because if you had more experience, particularly in the final third,
29:29 where I think the four strikers at the moment look very raw,
29:32 then potentially that domination of games would be producing the results that it deserves.
29:37 So I agree with you up to, I agree with you to a certain point.
29:41 But I think it's quite difficult when those positions that you mentioned aren't really the positions where there's issues at the moment.
29:48 I get that Danny Bart went to an extent because he had an excellent season,
29:51 but let's not pretend that someone weren't shifting chances or conceding goals from set pieces last season,
29:57 because they were and he was exceptional. I'm not rewriting history at all. He was brilliant.
30:01 He held a team together at times, you know, was ridiculous in terms of the injuries.
30:05 But yeah, I find it quite hard to know where I stand on that one,
30:09 because if my belief, which it is, is that Sunderland have grown as a team this year all round
30:13 and that the issue really is that the stardust they've lost in Ahmad,
30:17 then it would be hypocritical to say that letting the experience go has been a massive mistake.
30:22 Maybe we'll more know that in a couple of weeks,
30:24 because now is when you really need those figures in the dressing room.
30:27 When you go into a difficult period, a period of change, you've got tough games coming up.
30:32 Maybe that's something we'll be talking about in two weeks,
30:34 saying, you know, this has been a really challenging period
30:36 and that's when Sunderland really needed that experience in the dressing room.
30:40 My personal gut feeling is I'm not sure how big an issue it has been up until this point.
30:44 It might actually be now that you really need those Lyndon Gucci's
30:47 and those Danny Bart's to say, look, difficult spell, but to keep things together.
30:51 So, yeah, it's a really interesting question.
30:53 One that I don't have the answer to yet would be my honest response to it.
30:59 Yeah, it is very interesting.
31:01 And the small matter remains to discuss that Sunderland are playing
31:06 Newcastle United for the first time since 2016 in the FA Cup.
31:12 In the FA Cup in January, obviously that was when it was a draw Sunday.
31:17 Sunday feels like a long time ago now, doesn't it? Bloody hell.
31:19 But yeah, that's happening.
31:23 Stunt.
31:28 Is that what anybody needs? Anybody? Is that what any of us need?
31:31 Not at the moment.
31:34 But I mean, yeah, your initial reaction to that,
31:36 mine was I was at work, obviously, and my reaction was just a sort of scream at the television.
31:44 And my partner, Louise, was just sort of, what's wrong?
31:46 And I was just like, Jesus. But yeah, interesting game.
31:52 Initially, my reaction was just like, there's nothing good can come of that.
31:57 Just no. I think the atmosphere of the Blinkers was almost brilliant.
32:03 Yeah, I think I've softened slightly in that, you know,
32:08 like you say, it will be a special occasion. It really will be. They are unique.
32:13 There's a reason why we're all addicted to them, even though we kind of hate them at the same time.
32:19 It will be an amazing occasion.
32:20 And I think that from a Sunderland perspective, realistically,
32:23 I think expectations are going to be pretty measured going into that game.
32:28 You know, your concern is that if it becomes a bad defeat,
32:31 it doesn't really matter what the relative status of the two teams are.
32:34 A bad defeat in the Derby is a bad defeat in the Derby.
32:39 So that's your only kind of fear. But I think that's why you can't say it's a free hit.
32:43 There's no such thing in the Derby. There just isn't.
32:46 But, you know, there is obviously a context to it that I'm sure that every Sunderland fan will be aware of
32:52 and will sort of measure the performance against accordingly.
32:55 Listen, let's be positive and say what an opportunity for some of these players to become an absolute hero
33:01 for the rest of time for the club. And that's certainly how they have to view it.
33:07 Yeah, I would rather have just got Mansfield away, but it wasn't to be.
33:14 So, let's see.
33:16 Think of the page views and the interest in the reader minutes, Phil.
33:22 Right. So it's now Tuesday. Next game is on Saturday.
33:28 Phil, what is your good feeling? Do you think Sunderland will or could have the new man in by then,
33:34 or at least in the stands? Or will it sort of trickle on for a little bit longer than that, maybe?
33:40 You've obviously stated on this podcast that you do think it will be relatively quick.
33:44 But, you know, that's the question, I suppose, at the moment. Will it be in time for Saturday?
33:49 Yeah, my gut tells me that I think it probably will be.
33:53 But at the same time, like, Saturday feels really... What day is it? Is it Tuesday?
33:58 It's only Tuesday. It feels like it's Tuesday, right?
34:01 OK. Saturday feels pretty close to me by any measurement.
34:07 I think that feels a little close for someone to be in charge.
34:11 But I don't envisage this being a long process.
34:15 I think, given that, you know, having said that, I think it's something that's probably been on the cards for a little while,
34:20 albeit something that's accelerated a hell of a lot over the week.
34:25 I'd be really surprised if Sunderland, even if they haven't got someone in Verticom as lined up, ready to go,
34:31 I'd be really surprised if they didn't have a fairly strong idea of what they want to do next.
34:35 So I don't think this is going to be a lengthy process.
34:38 But having said that, you know, for someone to be in the dugout on Saturday feels a very, very tight timeframe.
34:44 Yeah, it does. And very quickly, Phil, we'd better talk about some sort of team news and the state of Sunderland's squad, really.
34:51 Obviously, we won't be talking to Tony Mowbray midweek,
34:54 but what's the sort of the latest that we've got at the moment, just in terms of injuries, returnees, who might drop out, who might come in?
35:00 Yeah, I mean, I don't envisage a huge amount of change.
35:06 Rooson, I think will probably be fit, but will he play? We don't know.
35:10 Sealt will be fit, but will he play? I highly doubt it.
35:13 Chris Rigg will be fit, so he might be on the bench, but again, I doubt he'll play.
35:18 Alise is probably only a couple of weeks away, but won't be ready.
35:21 Serkin, I'd be stunned if he was ready because he wasn't training by the end of last week.
35:25 So I think it's going to be pretty much as he were.
35:28 And the biggest decision for whoever's in charge is obviously going to be whether they, who they play up front.
35:34 And that's going to be very interesting after Mowbray's press conference that we discussed at length earlier.
35:39 So, yeah, unfortunately, I don't think there's going to be any major change.
35:42 I do think there's sort of light at the end of the tunnel for Alise.
35:45 I don't think he's too far off at all, but it's not going to be this Saturday.
35:48 So, yeah, I think whoever comes in, I think it's pretty much going to be a case of working with what we've got.
35:56 Yeah, indeed. Well, we'll round it up there for the moment.
35:59 Thank you for joining us.
36:01 You will be able to follow all of the latest managerial updates over at the Sunderland Echo website.
36:07 Follow us on social media as well to keep abreast of all of the latest information.
36:13 And yeah, cheers for tuning in to the RAW podcast.
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