Phil is back to reflect on the positives and negatives for Sunderland after a late defeat to Leeds United, and of course to chat through all your questions and comments
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00:00Morning everyone, welcome to the latest episode of On The Whistle where we're going to be
00:04talking through Leeds United 2-7-1 and what in the end was obviously from a Blackhats
00:09perspective a really, really disappointing end to it. One point we thought it was going
00:13to be a brilliant away day at Yelham Road. We're going to have a little chat through
00:16the game then as ever I'll get to your questions and comments and we'll have a good discussion
00:20around those. I won't talk too much about the game itself because hopefully a lot of
00:24you will have seen my instant reaction video from the press box which you can find on our
00:29channel if you haven't already seen it. But I think to be fair, having slept on it and
00:34thought about the game a bit more this morning, I don't think too much has really changed
00:38from my view on it in that I thought that the first half was a really, really strong
00:42performance from Sunderland. Yes, Leeds United dominated possession and they did have quite
00:46a lot of shots but I think if you look at their shot map there was only really one of
00:49them that was from close range, very much inside Sunderland's box. That was the header
00:53from Dan James that Luke O'Night hooked clear. So I think that for all Leeds, kind of controlled
00:59possession and got into dangerous areas at times, I think Sunderland were pretty comfortable
01:04with where the game was at defensively. I think they were in a position where they always
01:08kind of had the wingers under control. They always seemed to be able to double up on them.
01:12Didn't really give them any space in which to play and I think Sunderland had a genuine
01:15threat. I think that was the thing. I know they didn't have many shots themselves but
01:18I think you could argue through Isidore's goal which was a brilliant bit of individual
01:23centre-forward play and Joe Bellingham's effort and then the follow-up from Roberts
01:26and Mellier saved early on. I thought Sunderland had the two best chances in the half so I
01:30thought they got a really good balance about being really respectful about how good Leeds
01:34United are at home but ensuring that they just didn't totally sit back. I've seen some
01:39really interesting stats that I think kind of sum up the challenge that Sunderland faced
01:42playing Leeds United at Ellum Road and I think you've got to kind of respect just how good
01:46this Leeds team is at home. I noticed that when Sunderland got to the ten-minute mark
01:50they became the first team in the league at Ellum Road this calendar year not to concede
01:54inside those opening ten minutes. That tells you how strong Leeds have been. Some stats
01:58here courtesy of BBC Sport. Leeds at home in the Championship since September 15th.
02:03They've won 13 of their 14 games. They've scored 39 goals and conceded four. So I think
02:08that's the perspective from a Sunderland thing. Obviously we want Sunderland to get to this
02:11level and judge them against this strength of opposition but this was a really, really
02:15difficult task and I thought the first half was excellent. Second half, as I said on the
02:19video last night, I think that for all Leeds didn't create too many chances and actually
02:23Paterson didn't have a lot to do towards the end of the game. I did think that the momentum
02:27of the game shifted in that Leeds were still controlling possession but I really did feel
02:33like Sunderland didn't have a foothold in the contest. They didn't really seem to have
02:36a way to get out, to get through the press. At times there was a little bit of individual
02:41quality to carry the ball away when it's set piece. By some time that way but invariably
02:46Sunderland would just lose the ball and it would come straight back to them. For all
02:49that Leeds weren't creating many chances, I thought that they did have control of the
02:52game and I thought because Sunderland just couldn't get out and they were just having
02:55to do so much defending and couldn't play through the Leeds press, you could see them
02:59visibly get more and more tired as the half went on. As I said last night, I think you've
03:03got to give a huge amount of credit to Daniel Farker because I actually turned to my colleague
03:07Scott from the Northern Echo about 50 minutes into the game and said, you know, you'd think
03:11for a team who have so much dominance at home and therefore inevitably going to have
03:16so many set players, so many free kicks and corners, you'd think their delivery and their
03:20sort of strategy would be so much better because they wasted so many through 45-50 minutes
03:24of the game. You know, Daniel Farker kind of sensed that. He explained afterwards that
03:29his decision to bring on Rothwell and Strayer, obviously a midfielder in a centre half rather
03:33than naturally attacking players, was specifically because he felt that Sunderland's structure
03:37in open play was so good defensively that they probably would need a bit of magic from
03:41a set piece. And I think you have to say, to be fair, Rothwell's delivery for the first
03:44goal is exceptional. I mean, he's really put it in a perfect area. The speed, the dip,
03:49it was an excellent set piece. I think the second one from a Sunderland perspective is
03:52much, much harder to take because they have opportunities to clear their lines. I thought
03:56it was quite a poor header from Sam Ed, which enables Leeds to get the initial volley away.
04:01Of course, there's a little bit of luck because the volleys kind of shant back out of Rothwell,
04:05but on his other foot from the one that he delivered the corner, that's it, the free
04:09kick, sorry, for the first goal, it's a bit of quality from Rothwell. Maybe Sunderland
04:13should do better in terms of cutting out that cross. It does seem to fly past Paterson.
04:17So I think the second goal was a really difficult one to take. So I think a little bit of a
04:22chase and experience in that second half for Sunderland. I think that they were outplayed
04:26by Leeds, who I think showed their class. I don't think it's kind of all negative from
04:30a Sunderland perspective because I think that they can take a lot of heart from the first
04:34half performance in the way that they were able to get that blend between offering an
04:40attacking threat and defending really resolutely. And as I mentioned, even in the second half,
04:44even though I thought Leeds, they were certainly worthy of their equaliser, absolutely no doubt
04:47about that, and probably worthy of their winning goal as well. But as I say, from open play,
04:52they didn't really create too much. I thought Sunderland's back line was really, really
04:55strong. I thought Trey Hulme had an excellent game. I thought Denis Sirkin had a good game.
04:59I thought Dan Ballard was excellent. Again, he's made a really strong return to the side.
05:03So I think there are positives for Sunderland to take away from this. And the big thing
05:05for me is that, yeah, for sure, last night was a really disappointing result. It does
05:09make the top two look really, really difficult now. For me, I don't think when we get to
05:13the end of the season, if Sunderland are in the playoffs, which looks increasingly likely,
05:17my gut tells me we won't look at last night as one of the big moments where they kind
05:21of lost out, if you like, in the push for the top two. I think we'll look more towards
05:25the games like the one at home to Plymouth, the one at home to Watford, as the opportunity,
05:30the moments where they really, really let the sort of momentum they had slip. So I don't
05:35think it was a terrible performance by any means for Sunderland. I thought there was
05:39a lot of good in it. I think sometimes you have to hold your hand up and respect the
05:43opposition. And I certainly feel that was the story of the game last night. I think
05:46you have to give Leeds credit for the way they didn't panic after going behind and the
05:50way they kept going and a little bit of magic from Joe Rothwell, who I think deserves a
05:55lot of credit for that because they were two really exceptional deliveries.
05:59So let's have a look at some of your questions. I'm going to put quite a few of them all in
06:05one to begin with, because it was kind of the main thing you were all talking about
06:08the game after the game, the main thing you were asking me about. So I'll put them all
06:12together and just talk you through my thoughts and feelings on them. So Tom Shiny says,
06:16cannot fault the commitment by the team. They gave it their all, but Leeds bench has quality.
06:20Again, I question La Bresa's choice of substitutions and reticence to introduce them.
06:24Brown surely over Sam Ed and be more proactive than reactive. Our continued frailty over
06:29crosses and set pieces dreadful. Well, yeah, it's interesting that Tom, because actually
06:33some defended set pieces really, really well for the first hour. It was when Rothwell came
06:37on that it made a big difference. But yeah, we'll certainly get into the substitution
06:42stuff in a moment. Stu says tactics were spot on for the first 55 minutes, but they took
06:46complete control after that. Is it fair to say we took too long to make sub slash tactical
06:50changes? And when we did, they made very little sense. Playing an out and out DM is
06:54the most advanced midfielder and taking off your centre forward is just baffling.
07:00Ian says, what did you make of the subs Phil? Seen a lot of criticism, but Mundell and Brown
07:04to me are at major risk in a high intensity game for recurrence. Paveda was life or life,
07:09Sam Ed worked at Berra, but not tonight. Mienda, right sub maybe wrong person, but how did you
07:13see it? And Louis says there'll be accusations at RLB of sitting back after another lead
07:19lost at the death. Surely it's more fair to say Leeds pushed us back by being better and more
07:23composed on the ball. Sunderland seemed to lose all composure and possession and had no out ball
07:27after Isidor's energy was spent. I agree. So my feeling from being at the ground yesterday,
07:34watching the game, obviously everyone will have their own opinions. I don't think Sunderland
07:37sat back in the second half and I don't think the subs were made as defensive substitutions at all.
07:43I just don't think Sunderland on the night for whatever reason were good enough in possession.
07:46So I agree with Louis there that I think the story of the second half was more about the way
07:50that Leeds took control of the game, the quality they showed in possession and particularly that
07:54pressing to prevent Sunderland getting out. I don't think it would be fair. I don't think
07:59Sunderland were being reactive in the second half. I think they were just pushed back by his team,
08:03which as I mentioned at the start has an exceptional home record and a lot of good
08:07qualities at home. Now in terms of the substitutions, I think the first thing I would say is that
08:12one, there's a bit of a positive here in terms of the bench that Sunderland put out last night
08:17was the strongest they've put out all season. At the moment it doesn't quite feel like that
08:21because some of those players aren't match fit. So it's a little bit misleading when you look
08:24at the bench in terms of Mundell obviously hasn't played since November. Alan Brown's had 45 minutes
08:29with the under-21s since November. So it's not quite as strong as it looks at face value,
08:33but hopefully that's something that will improve in weeks going forward. I think
08:37the one thing I would say is that it's really, really harsh I think on Lebris to compare Leeds'
08:42bench to Sunderland's bench last night. Joe Rothwell won promotion to the Premier League
08:46last year. He's played in the Premier League. He's an incredibly experienced player with a lot of
08:50quality. Pascal Struyck has played in the Premier League. Ramazani was signed from the top tier in
08:55Spain for a huge sum of money last summer. Wilfred Nonto, I think that's a player of that quality
09:02would pretty much walk into any other team in the Championship and he's on the bench for Leeds
09:06last night. So I think right now, I think you've got to kind of respect that that's parachute
09:10payment and that's Premier League depth coming through. Now in terms of the substitutions Lebris
09:15made in the game itself, I sort of agreed with some of them and not with others. I had no problem
09:20with Mienda coming on for Isidore. I think as Louis has mentioned there, I thought that was
09:24the right sub pretty much at the right time. I think Isidore got through a huge amount of running
09:29in the first hour of the game. I thought he looked really, really tired and it didn't quite look like
09:33he had the energy that someone needed over the top. Mienda's been in excellent form in recent
09:38games. We've all spoken about how well he's done. I thought that was a fair sub at the right time.
09:42Perveda for Roberts, I think was the right sub. I would have liked to see it maybe made a little
09:47bit earlier. I thought that Roberts showed fatigue from quite early on in the second half and I
09:52thought that to be fair, Perveda, I thought he had a bit of an impact. He carried the ball quite well.
09:57Junior Fairport, Daniel Farker actually brought him off in added time because he'd just taken a
10:01yellow card for bringing down Perveda when Perveda burst past him. I thought he showed
10:07something. That's maybe on reflection, a sub that could have been made earlier.
10:10The interesting one is obviously the Sam Ed one. Sam Ed came on at the same time as Mienda did.
10:16He came on for Chris Regan, went into that more advanced role, which obviously looks a little bit
10:19odd because he's a defensive midfielder by trade. Listen, I think you have to be really honest and
10:25say that last night it really didn't work. I try to be consistent on these videos and not be too
10:30hypocritical. I think I have to hold my hand up and say that after the Derby game when Sam Ed did
10:35exactly the same thing, he came on and played as more of an attacking midfielder rather than a
10:38defensive midfielder. I praise that call because I thought it went really well. I think the idea
10:44certainly was in that game, and I imagine the logic was the same last night, is that basically
10:49in order to try and get someone up the pitch, to try and prevent those waves and waves of attack,
10:54you have to try and get more pressure on the ball. You have to try and get up the pitch.
10:57I think the logic is that your fresh legs with Sam Ed should allow you to press leads better
11:02by playing him in a more advanced role where he can press, where he can hopefully nick the ball
11:06back, where he can try and actually apply some pressure and help his teammates get up the pitch.
11:10It really didn't work last night. It has worked in previous games, but I just didn't think it
11:16quite worked. I thought that it didn't really change the momentum of the game at all. The
11:23problem then was in the moments where Sunderland did win the ball back, you then have your more
11:26defensive midfielder in possession on the counter-attack. In those situations, I think
11:30you'd rather have a Dan Mailer or a Joe Bellingham because I think there's more attacking players.
11:34They obviously have a bit more of a passing range. I think that's the one last night that
11:39definitely didn't work. I think it's interesting going forward because I can understand why
11:44Brown and Mundell didn't come on last night. I think Ian's made some really good points there.
11:48Yes, you have to get these players on the pitch. That's the only way they're going to build their
11:52fitness, so it's a tricky balance. But putting them, especially Mundell with the severity of
11:56the hamstring injury that he's been out with, putting them in for a game of that intensity
12:01would have been quite a big risk. But I think that's going to be really important moving
12:04forward. At the moment, for me, from what we've seen this season, I think Brown probably,
12:08if it's going to be in a more attacking midfield role, I think Brown maybe with
12:11his championship experience might be a little bit of a better bet from what we've seen at the moment.
12:16But we'll have to see how that one moves forward. I hope that's made sense with my answer. I think
12:21some of the subs were a little bit late. The Sam Edwan definitely didn't work. But I do think that
12:27there's a lot of times, I don't think it's a coincidence that Sunderland have dropped
12:31so many points late on in games because I think it has been a pattern this season where the
12:36opposition have been able to make more subs much earlier in the half. Sometimes that's been down
12:41to Labris' preference. Sometimes it's been down to a lack of options. I think last night you have
12:45to respect the ability that Leeds had and the experience they had on their bench and that did
12:49make a massive difference. Some of Sunderland's potentially key subs aren't fully match fit yet.
12:55It's going to be really interesting to see whether we do see a bit of a shift from Labris
12:58moving into the final weeks of the season when Watson's back, when Mundell Brown,
13:02players like that are a bit more match fit. Will we see him be a bit more aggressive earlier in
13:06games? But I don't feel last night was about Sunderland being reactive. I think it was just
13:11a case of Leeds' quality showing. For sure, Labris mentioned after the game that his substitutions
13:16didn't alter the momentum and that's definitely something that he'll have to reflect on. I think
13:20that midfield blend is going to be really interesting moving forward because it has
13:24kind of worked with Sam Edd at times coming off the bench. That's when he's had his best performances.
13:28It wasn't what happened at Middlesbrough. He came on in that more defensive role and
13:31pushed Dan Neil forward and that worked well. So that will be interesting to see moving forward.
13:38So let's have a look at some of the other comments. Davey says not the time for knee
13:41jerk reactions to what was a huge disappointing end to the game.
13:44Brown, Salis and Mundell returning with Watson and Dan's hopefully not too far off gives us great
13:49options going forward. Leeds are top for a reason. We won't have a side of their quality to face
13:53again. Keep the faith. Bill says do you think like no one else in the championship Leeds were
13:58just too strong for us? Last night reminded me of what it felt like watching Prem games as a
14:01Sunderland fan. Certainly the second half. I think you know I can only give my opinion from watching
14:06the games and the grounds and if you look across the two games that Sunderland have played against
14:10Leeds this season for me they are the best team in the division. I think that you know Sunderland
14:14took three points in the games against Sheffield United and I think they were good value for that
14:18and a bit unlucky to lose at home away at Bramall Lane sorry. I think from Burnley Sunderland took
14:23four points and were good value for that. Should have taken six if they'd taken the chances later
14:27on and I know the table it's still quite tight in terms of the top three but for me Leeds are clear
14:32from what I've seen as the best team in the division in terms of the all-round control
14:36and dominance they exert over games. So I don't think it's as I think Dave you're absolutely right
14:42I don't think this is the night where Sunderland's kind of season unraveled or anything like that. I
14:46think we've just lost to a really really good team and showed some positives definitely some
14:49negatives in the second half so I don't think this will be the season to find a game if you like.
14:54There is also obviously the reality of that we knew after the draw was at home to Watford and
14:59Plymouth and that that raised the stakes for this game considerably so I kind of have a slightly
15:03mixed emotions. I don't think this is a game as you said Davey to overreact to at the same time
15:08there's no getting away from the fact that it is you know a big big blow for Sunderland's
15:11automatic promotion hopes and you know they're going to have to go on an exceptional run
15:16between now and the end of the season if they're going to challenge the top two.
15:20A fantastic achievement of course to be where they are pretty you know safely kind of
15:24embedded in the playoffs. So yeah cheers for those comments and questions.
15:34So last couple of questions before I finish. Chris here says how can championship teams bridge
15:39the gap to the parachute clubs? Is it just going to take us longer than we all expect and want it?
15:43I think it's a really good point I think taking off in the way from Leeds an excellent team an
15:46excellent performance you can see last night and you can see over the course of the season even
15:50though Sunderland have done brilliantly there's a clear gap just in terms of squad depth and
15:54quality really and experience to the parachute clubs and the answer is that it's getting harder
15:59and harder and ultimately I've been on a lot of sort of calls and press calls with the EFL
16:03chairman Rick Parry and there's a reason why they're lobbying for the way that the Premier
16:07League pays money to the EFL to change and you know they want a merit-based system basically
16:12where you get paid more in line with where you finish in the championship rather than just
16:16a kind of up from parachute payment and then solidarity payments to the rest of the clubs
16:21because it will increase the competitive of the division you know it's no longer competitive
16:25the case that this is the most open division in the world it might be beyond the top four or five
16:30but it's obvious for a long period of time the parachute clubs have a massive advantage
16:34very few teams have been able to bridge that gap and the reality is they've done so by taking big
16:38risks you know Ipswich got back-to-back promotions and did exceptionally well but took big risks by
16:42the level of investment that they put in the squad over a period of time and we've seen over the last
16:46decade that a lot of clubs who've done that and you know if they haven't sort of taken that gamble
16:52and haven't won promotion they've then really struggled and they've come into trouble with the
16:56financial rules and in some cases it's taken them years and years to recover from and they still
17:00haven't. I think it's really hard to criticize Sunderland for not going down that road
17:04I think there's kind of two prongs to Sunderland's approach one is to invest in their category one
17:09academy and to try and build up that talent over time to get to the level of these players and I
17:13think we're starting to see the fruits of that and the other is that the occasional player sale will
17:18It's interesting Chris that Sunderland's kind of strategy is that not saying it's like binding or
17:23anything but they're hoping to have reached the Premier League by the end of next season
17:26and I wonder if the Enzo Le Fay deal in January is just a little bit of a sign
17:30that those play sales that we've seen in recent times, Ross Stewart, Jack Clark,
17:34it's just not allowing them to increase that budget a little bit maybe if there was if
17:39Sunderland and hopefully the Wales go up because they've got absolutely every chance to do that
17:43Hopefully maybe the odd player sale will allow them again just to lift that level of player
17:48that they're signing so I think the future is really positive for Sunderland I think they're
17:51doing it the right way and I think they can do it but it will take time and I think even if you
17:55look at a club like Brighton and Brentford who are probably the model that Sunderland are closest to
17:59trying to emulate it took them a lot of years to get out the championship and the reality is it
18:03might be difficult to get next season and I think it's going to take time and I think it's going to
18:07take a lot of time and I think it's going to take a lot of time and I think it's going to take a
18:11might be difficult to get next year but I do feel like generally speaking we're seeing Sunderland
18:15make progress they're heading in the right direction and I think the way they've played
18:19against the parachute payment teams this season albeit last night was really disappointing can
18:23give us a lot of positivity going forward so I am I am quietly confident that Sunderland are doing it
18:28the right way and they're putting the building blocks in place but for clear for sure I think
18:32we saw last night that there was a