No One Left to Run With Anymore and Invisible Storm Author Jason Kander

Bullish Studio

Guy, Dan, and Danny discuss Guy’s controversial top band rankings (3:04), JPMorgan’s earnings report (5:47), the hardest macro tape Danny has seen (12:11), bond volatility (18:29), Wall Street strategists slashing S&P 500 price targets (20:44), and Tesla’s Elon Musk vs. Donald Trump (26:26). The co-hosts interview Jason Kander, New York Times bestselling author, about his new book Invisible Storm: A Soldier's Memoir of Politics and PTSD (38:58), and much more.  Visit our website to access our show notes and transcript: https://bit.ly/3z7IeTe

Transcript

00:00:00 (upbeat music)

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00:01:20 I'm telling you folks now, we are all geeked up.

00:01:23 I'm looking at Danny Moses, chomping at the biddies,

00:01:26 chewing tobacco or something.

00:01:28 Dan Nathan is here, he's all geeked up.

00:01:30 I can almost say without equivocation,

00:01:33 this might be the most energetic on the tape

00:01:35 you will have ever heard in your life.

00:01:37 I'm fired up.

00:01:38 And oh, by the way, later on,

00:01:40 we're gonna have an interview with Jason Kander,

00:01:43 author of "Invisible Storm,"

00:01:45 a soldier's memoir of politics and PTSD.

00:01:49 He was a New York Times bestseller.

00:01:51 He will be a two-time New York Times bestseller

00:01:54 on the back of this book.

00:01:56 I am ready to go here, folks.

00:01:58 There's a word that I use from time to time.

00:02:00 The word is fruition.

00:02:03 Things come to fruition, Dan Nathan.

00:02:06 And what's amazing to me,

00:02:08 now we've been doing this, I think, 18 months,

00:02:11 is that correct? - Correct, a year and a half.

00:02:13 - The "On the Tape" podcast with Danny Moses

00:02:16 and Dan Nathan, along with Guy Adame,

00:02:17 it's 18 months-ish, right?

00:02:19 And we try to weave a narrative.

00:02:22 And it's like some people like to knit,

00:02:24 and it takes people a long time to knit

00:02:26 like a quilt or sweater.

00:02:29 But when the sweater's done, you look at it like,

00:02:30 oh my God, here's this beautiful sweater

00:02:32 that I've spent 18 months knitting.

00:02:34 Danny Moses has been knitting this sweater over time.

00:02:37 And over the last couple days, what I've noticed,

00:02:40 all of these things, Danny, have come to fruition.

00:02:44 Your sweater, that when you take off your shirt,

00:02:47 it appears that you're wearing one, is finished.

00:02:50 'Cause we have J.P. Morgan, and it's interesting,

00:02:52 people sort of discounted Jamie Dimon a couple months ago,

00:02:55 a month and a half ago, when he said,

00:02:56 there's a hurricane coming.

00:02:57 I don't know if it's a cat one, cat four, blah, blah, blah.

00:03:00 But we saw J.P. Morgan earnings on Thursday,

00:03:03 and they're now taking loan loss reserves.

00:03:08 So what does he see?

00:03:10 What does he see?

00:03:11 What did he see?

00:03:11 What does he see?

00:03:12 And what do you see?

00:03:13 - Hold on a second.

00:03:14 And I am fired up, and people in Europe

00:03:16 are gonna need the sweater and quilt,

00:03:17 whatever I'm knitting,

00:03:18 because they're not gonna have any power this winter,

00:03:20 but that's okay.

00:03:21 But Guy, you made a post the other day,

00:03:23 we joke about music, we bring pop culture in.

00:03:25 - You wanna start with that?

00:03:26 - Yeah, I wanna start with this.

00:03:27 You and your top 15, okay?

00:03:29 I get it.

00:03:30 Zeppelin, I totally respect, get it.

00:03:31 I'm from Athens, Georgia.

00:03:33 I respect REM, okay?

00:03:35 I like Simon and Garfunkel, but they're poets.

00:03:38 You know, it's beautiful stuff.

00:03:39 Van Halen, one of the cheesiest bands.

00:03:41 - Stop, no! - Generational, hold on.

00:03:43 I like the, but the stuff, the comments here.

00:03:46 How is REM above the Beatles, first of all?

00:03:48 And there's obvious names missing.

00:03:51 I guess you hate the city of Seattle,

00:03:53 because there is nothing on here

00:03:54 that resembles any of the music that Dan and I like.

00:03:57 I think you're doing it just to hurt us.

00:03:58 - No. - This is a bit of a train wreck.

00:04:00 And let's be clear, this was introduced

00:04:02 during Fast Money on Wednesday afternoons,

00:04:04 so it sounded like it was tapped out.

00:04:05 - I actually did this during a commercial break

00:04:07 at Fast Money.

00:04:08 I'm gonna read the list, and then you guys can opine.

00:04:10 Led Zeppelin, number one, I don't think there's any,

00:04:13 there's no argument there.

00:04:14 The Who, number two, you can argue,

00:04:16 but the Who belongs there.

00:04:17 The Brothers Almond, number three.

00:04:18 You're gonna say they're too high,

00:04:19 but they belong on the list. - No, I'm from the South.

00:04:20 I love it, it's good. - No question.

00:04:21 Bruce Springsteen at four, what's the problem there?

00:04:23 - No argument.

00:04:24 - Five, Skinner, I love Leonard Skinner.

00:04:26 They're the soundtrack of my youth.

00:04:27 You don't want him in there, that's fine.

00:04:29 Number six, Stevie Ray Vaughan,

00:04:31 probably the greatest guitar player of our lifetime.

00:04:33 No question.

00:04:34 Stones, seven.

00:04:35 You got a problem with the Stones?

00:04:36 - I'm not a Stone fan, but that's fine.

00:04:37 - I don't.

00:04:37 Clapton, I mean, Clapton is a genius.

00:04:39 - Impressive, yeah.

00:04:40 - Eight, number nine, Dire Straits, a much maligned,

00:04:44 probably not a band that people give enough attention to,

00:04:47 number nine.

00:04:48 Eagles, 10, come on, problem?

00:04:50 11, Queen, Freddie Mercury, the greatest front man

00:04:53 in the history of rock and roll.

00:04:54 Number 12, the aforementioned REM from Athens, Georgia.

00:04:57 In the 1980s, REM dominated the decade, without question.

00:05:02 You're gonna give me a hard time with Simon and Garfunkel?

00:05:04 I'm gonna say you never saw Simon and Garfunkel live.

00:05:06 Brilliant.

00:05:07 Number 14, the aforementioned Van Halen.

00:05:10 Brilliant band.

00:05:12 Six albums that just kicked ass.

00:05:15 And number 15, Beatles.

00:05:17 Tell me where I'm wrong.

00:05:18 - So you know what's obvious about

00:05:20 how much time we just spent on this,

00:05:21 is that there's no Giants, no Rangers, no Knicks.

00:05:25 Like, this is how we're gonna kind of--

00:05:27 - I also wanted to avoid talking about the markets,

00:05:29 and I needed a distraction to kind of,

00:05:31 before we go into this thing,

00:05:32 which I'm happy to dive into here,

00:05:33 but I wanted to get that out.

00:05:34 'Cause I'll put my 15 out next week, we can talk about it.

00:05:37 - Amanda, you're gonna put this in the show notes, guys.

00:05:39 Tweet from yesterday.

00:05:39 - No, but hold on, I'm just curious as to,

00:05:42 there's obviously, Pearl Jam is missing.

00:05:44 - Yes, okay.

00:05:45 - U2 is missing.

00:05:46 - Pink Floyd's missing.

00:05:47 - Pink Floyd is missing.

00:05:48 - Yes, Pink Floyd, by the way,

00:05:49 if I went 25 to 50, they're not in.

00:05:52 - Okay, I saw a show, The Wall at the Wall,

00:05:54 that'll change your life.

00:05:55 July 21st, 1990.

00:05:56 All right, anyway, let's move on.

00:05:58 By the way, that was in Germany,

00:05:59 that's one of the topics, obviously,

00:06:00 we're gonna talk about today.

00:06:02 Let's lead with the maestro, Jamie Dimon.

00:06:04 Should we do that?

00:06:05 - Yes, well, I started, I said Jamie Dimon.

00:06:07 - 10 minutes ago. - JP Morgan's earnings.

00:06:09 - Thanks for sticking with us, people, here.

00:06:10 - Yes, thank you.

00:06:11 Front stage, Jamie Dimon, front stage.

00:06:13 All right, so I don't think any of it,

00:06:14 sounds like none of his salespeople are doing that anymore,

00:06:16 they're looking at the expense budget.

00:06:18 But anyway, so nothing was unexpected, really.

00:06:20 Right, the one thing that was unexpected

00:06:22 was canceling the buyback.

00:06:23 By the way, the dividend is much larger than the buyback.

00:06:26 It's a token on the buyback.

00:06:27 So, and I'll get into that in a minute.

00:06:29 Credit losses, $1.1 billion in credit costs

00:06:32 that were reserved.

00:06:33 - By the way, this time last year,

00:06:34 they were releasing $3 billion.

00:06:36 A lot's changed in a year.

00:06:38 - That's exactly right.

00:06:39 And then I think what really spooked people was,

00:06:41 now everyone was looking it up on Wikipedia or whatever,

00:06:44 is this common equity tier one ratio, the CET1, right,

00:06:47 they call it.

00:06:48 And that basically is Basel III,

00:06:50 again, don't lose me people,

00:06:51 Dodd-Frank, just throw it all in the same.

00:06:53 After the global financial crisis,

00:06:55 the international world decided the banks need to

00:06:57 have X amount of capital and they stress test everything.

00:07:00 What he did today, that's where he spent all of his venom

00:07:02 was towards that 12, 13%, whatever the number,

00:07:05 he blamed not by, he also said, I will stop lending.

00:07:08 Watch what I do.

00:07:09 I will fire mortgage people.

00:07:11 I will stop lending into the space

00:07:13 the people that need mortgages most if you make me do this.

00:07:15 And I think it's bullshit.

00:07:16 I think he may have even cursed on it.

00:07:18 So what he's saying was there's a risk weighted adjustment.

00:07:21 People just throw in, they said, okay,

00:07:22 you have X amount of billions of mortgages

00:07:24 on your balance sheet.

00:07:25 We're gonna stress test it to X,

00:07:26 which makes you require X amount of capital

00:07:28 on your balance sheet.

00:07:29 So we are nitpicking here that he actually needs

00:07:31 to reserve more capital than he probably should.

00:07:33 And I think he's right.

00:07:34 I think they're antiquated.

00:07:35 And I think as we go through this recession,

00:07:37 I think that the world will realize these banks

00:07:39 are in much better shape, most of them.

00:07:41 The European banks, whole nother podcast,

00:07:42 but the US banks are well capitalized

00:07:44 and he's crying out.

00:07:45 It was nothing else in there was shocking at all.

00:07:47 We knew they would take, I said last week,

00:07:49 if anyone doesn't take credit reserves, sell the company.

00:07:52 So the stock's acting fine.

00:07:54 It's not necessarily a fine.

00:07:55 It's 107.

00:07:56 - It's down 4%.

00:07:57 It's basically filled in that gap from late 2020.

00:08:00 - Fine, in this world, that's fine.

00:08:02 - All right, but you know what's not fine

00:08:03 is that you have an S&P that's down 21% on the year.

00:08:06 You have JP Morgan down 30%,

00:08:08 Bank of America down 31%, down 40%

00:08:11 from its all time highs, well not from its all time highs,

00:08:14 from its highs made late last year.

00:08:15 So the bank's not anything but fine, actually.

00:08:17 - So you've been telegraphing this for a long time.

00:08:20 And it happened exactly to the penny Carter was,

00:08:23 hold on, so it's not unexpected.

00:08:25 So I said, I said these are utility stocks,

00:08:27 they're dead money, there's no reason to own them.

00:08:29 What I said was, I don't think the quarter

00:08:31 on JP Morgan specifically,

00:08:33 so you got your drift down to the 110, 105, 100.

00:08:36 I think you can get to 1.2 times tangible book,

00:08:39 which puts it down in the 85 type level.

00:08:41 I think tangible book's around 70.

00:08:43 Not book, tangible.

00:08:44 So if you paint a worst case scenario,

00:08:46 so where do I start buying?

00:08:47 Probably sub 100, but you're not gonna miss anything here

00:08:51 by not owning it.

00:08:52 I guess that's what I'm saying.

00:08:53 I think it's important.

00:08:54 And that's not a good strategy, but whatever.

00:08:56 - No, you're right.

00:08:56 Tangible book in JP Morgan is $69.53.

00:09:01 If it were to get down to your level, 1.2,

00:09:03 that's levels we haven't seen.

00:09:05 I mean, I'm sure I could look it up,

00:09:06 I could Google it as they say,

00:09:08 but I guarantee I haven't seen that

00:09:09 since I've been doing Fast Money.

00:09:10 Now, if we were to get there,

00:09:12 what does that say about the broader market?

00:09:14 I would submit that if JP Morgan, the stock,

00:09:17 were to get down to, let's just say 85 for shits and giggles,

00:09:21 that would mean in my world,

00:09:22 the S&P 500 is probably trading either side of 3,300.

00:09:26 - I don't agree with you on your top 15 music list.

00:09:29 I couldn't agree with you more on that comment.

00:09:31 That's exactly, that's my level.

00:09:32 That's where I think we're going.

00:09:34 I said the third quarter will probably be

00:09:35 when we potentially make the lows.

00:09:36 And what we're seeing here,

00:09:38 which I just wanna say macro's taken over the micro,

00:09:40 obviously, for sure.

00:09:41 This is the hardest trading tape

00:09:43 I've ever seen in my career.

00:09:44 It's not a coincidence when there's no one having your back

00:09:47 that's gonna be there to save you.

00:09:48 This is it.

00:09:49 So this is gonna be a very tough time

00:09:51 for the next quarter, and you gotta be patient, Dan.

00:09:52 - You just said, what is it gonna say about the market?

00:09:55 I would say, what is it saying about the economy, right?

00:09:57 If you look at home builders, the major ones,

00:09:59 they're all down, again, 30% of the year,

00:10:01 much like all these big money center banks,

00:10:03 and obviously, from a lending standpoint,

00:10:04 they're kind of attached at the hip.

00:10:05 But what are they saying about the economy?

00:10:07 And so if you're talking about levels in which to buy,

00:10:09 it's really funny that we keep talking about tangible book.

00:10:11 When we had David Solomon, was it about a month ago,

00:10:14 a little more than a month ago,

00:10:15 and you were talking about,

00:10:16 this was a closed-door thing for the CME,

00:10:18 and when you were quoting the banks on book,

00:10:20 what did he say to you?

00:10:21 - He was not as concerned of tangible book.

00:10:24 We had a conversation, but I will tell you,

00:10:26 to the penny, he knew where his stock was,

00:10:29 and he obviously knew what tangible

00:10:31 and book value of Goldman's.

00:10:32 I was happy to hear that, by the way.

00:10:33 - But what did he say?

00:10:34 He said, "I don't really care about tangible book.

00:10:36 "I care about full book."

00:10:37 - Yeah, yeah.

00:10:37 Well, okay, I'll play that game as well.

00:10:39 I mean, I only use tangible book

00:10:41 in relation to where things should be trading vis-a-vis,

00:10:44 but if you wanna do book value,

00:10:45 you can put a multiple on that as well.

00:10:47 The bottom line is you're gonna come to the same levels

00:10:49 in terms of your stock price.

00:10:50 - Tangible book starts to matter when you have losses,

00:10:53 because people will doubt the difference,

00:10:54 you know, what you're carrying tangibly

00:10:56 versus what you're carrying that measure

00:10:57 in a form of goodwill or whatever it might be.

00:10:59 So it's always, when you're looking to the downside,

00:11:01 how far can you go use tangible?

00:11:03 In a growing environment, growing economy,

00:11:05 maybe you wanna use book, right?

00:11:06 You're putting that money to work.

00:11:07 - Yeah, and so I guess the only point that I would make

00:11:09 is that the way the banks have been leading to the downside,

00:11:11 the way that home builders have been leading to the downside,

00:11:13 the most economically sensitive groups

00:11:15 have been the worst acting groups all year long.

00:11:17 Forget all this stuff in the NASDAQ,

00:11:19 'cause you still, you look at the NASDAQ

00:11:21 and it's only down 31% on the year or something like that.

00:11:24 So to me, I think they're telling you

00:11:25 everything you need to know.

00:11:26 And until we have a recession that is declared,

00:11:29 that is official, until we start seeing

00:11:31 some of the credit issues that,

00:11:32 Guy, you've been talking about,

00:11:34 why you've been tracking the high yield index

00:11:36 the way you have, these banks,

00:11:38 why would you wanna buy these banks?

00:11:39 Unless you have a longer term time horizon

00:11:42 and the wherewithal for another 20% to the downside.

00:11:45 - The entire economy has been based on financial engineering

00:11:48 for the last 13 years.

00:11:49 That's why the banks matter so much.

00:11:51 And you're right, Dan, the banks give a look.

00:11:52 What would make JPMorgan go to 85

00:11:54 would be a slowing of the economy,

00:11:56 credit getting worse, Fed not stopping,

00:11:59 further inversion, all the things that are pretty much

00:12:01 look like they're happening right here.

00:12:02 So we're gonna get Wells Fargo and Citigroup

00:12:04 when this comes out, that'll be out tomorrow morning.

00:12:06 And then on Monday, we'll get Bank of America

00:12:08 and Goldman Sachs.

00:12:09 So over the next three to four days,

00:12:11 we're gonna get a broad picture of

00:12:12 what does a Wall Street bank look like,

00:12:14 what does an internationally exposed bank look like.

00:12:16 So you're gonna get a piece, and again,

00:12:18 I told people, I listened to the Jamie Dimon call today

00:12:20 and I read through some of the notes just to get an idea.

00:12:23 Billion dollar charge off, well, break it down.

00:12:24 What is that?

00:12:25 So you just gotta know what it is.

00:12:26 Anyway, back to, this is the hardest macro tape

00:12:28 that I've seen, you got the Euro breaking the buck today,

00:12:30 right, I don't know where it is right now.

00:12:32 You got the 210, US 210 now further inverting

00:12:34 somewhere in the 17, 18 basis points.

00:12:36 So you're basically cementing that in, obviously.

00:12:39 And then I took a look and I said, okay,

00:12:40 if we're gonna play this Fed game

00:12:42 over the next couple weeks here,

00:12:44 in terms of are they gonna go 100, are they gonna go 75?

00:12:47 And the fact that they told us in the last minutes,

00:12:49 they are looking at every data point.

00:12:51 Let's break it down a little bit, guys, all right?

00:12:52 So CPI, PPI, back-to-back days.

00:12:56 Lot of it is based on energy.

00:12:58 Lot of it is based on gasoline price.

00:13:00 We know that's coming down in July.

00:13:01 Here's some other things that are on the horizon here.

00:13:03 Retail sales Friday, these are the ones I kinda picked out

00:13:06 I think will be the focus point of the news.

00:13:08 Retail sales Friday, the NEHB housing market index

00:13:11 on the 18th, on the 20th, by the way,

00:13:14 Tesla earnings after the call on the 20th, Dan.

00:13:16 - By the way, you're gonna be locked in for that.

00:13:19 You're gonna have a lobster bib on for that one.

00:13:20 - Right, exactly. (laughs)

00:13:22 Exactly, home sales.

00:13:23 And then you get on the 20th also

00:13:25 another round of oil inventories,

00:13:26 which by the way, if you saw gasoline inventory

00:13:28 shooting higher, obviously you saw that.

00:13:29 And then you get Philly Fed, you get PMI,

00:13:32 and then you get the Fed.

00:13:33 And by the way, the Fed's on the 27th,

00:13:35 the day after the Fed, we're gonna see

00:13:36 that we're in a recession, which was the second quarter.

00:13:38 CPI numbers. - That's exactly right.

00:13:39 And it's interesting 'cause earlier this week on Fast Money

00:13:42 we had Jim Bianco on and he started talking about

00:13:45 the Fed and what they needed to do.

00:13:47 And my question to him was, well,

00:13:50 there have been times throughout history

00:13:52 where we've had emergency rate cuts

00:13:54 mid-meeting, right, between meetings.

00:13:57 And I said, it seems like we're in a bit of emergency now

00:13:59 with a 9.1% CPI.

00:14:02 Why would they wait to the next meeting?

00:14:04 Why wouldn't they just do it?

00:14:05 And his answer to me was, well, the optics of,

00:14:07 and I never do this on Fast Money,

00:14:09 but I said, no, no, no, stop.

00:14:11 I said, we're well past optics

00:14:13 when it comes to the Federal Reserve.

00:14:14 They played that card.

00:14:16 I'm not interested in hearing about optics.

00:14:17 They're well beyond optics.

00:14:19 They've screwed the pooch.

00:14:21 So is there a chance that they do some

00:14:24 mid-meeting rate hike, Danny Moses?

00:14:27 - I don't think so, but I misspoke.

00:14:29 It's GDP, sorry, that comes out on the 20th.

00:14:31 I think I said CPI.

00:14:32 There's so many acronyms floating around out there.

00:14:34 But I don't want to go into Fed rant.

00:14:35 I want to move on from that.

00:14:36 But I will say, this colossal mistake that they made

00:14:40 taking forever to tighten the markets,

00:14:42 they are, I believe, right now doing the opposite.

00:14:44 I mean, what brain surgery does it take to see

00:14:47 that with oil prices coming down

00:14:49 and gasoline prices specifically,

00:14:51 which are a huge component in the,

00:14:53 are down, it's not that difficult.

00:14:54 We may have seen the peak number.

00:14:56 We might have seen the peak number.

00:14:57 Maybe we haven't.

00:14:58 - Okay, I'll agree with you on that.

00:14:59 So 9.1 is a ridiculous number.

00:15:02 And that's obviously 9.1 before crude oil went from 115

00:15:06 down to current levels.

00:15:07 Okay, so let's just play the game.

00:15:09 Crude oil has come down, let's say, I don't know, 35%.

00:15:12 That fair-ish?

00:15:13 - Yeah.

00:15:14 - And let's say that's all,

00:15:15 that's going to take inflation number down 35%.

00:15:19 That takes us down to a, I don't know,

00:15:21 high six handle or so.

00:15:23 We're still three times the level they need to be.

00:15:25 So crude's done a lot of work for them.

00:15:27 There's still a lot of work to be done.

00:15:29 They're three years behind the curve.

00:15:30 Now I'm arguing with you about the Fed,

00:15:32 which is ridiculous.

00:15:33 It's crazy.

00:15:33 - I want to say, I want Dan to get in here,

00:15:34 but I want to say one other thing.

00:15:36 We are now, you throw in the situation in Europe right now.

00:15:39 With the Euro, okay.

00:15:41 The Fed, granted, it's not their mandate.

00:15:43 Let's just use some common sense here.

00:15:45 What Bernanke did at the time, which whatever,

00:15:48 he created this mess, whatever.

00:15:49 They did coordinate at the time.

00:15:51 Europe's in trouble right now.

00:15:52 - Yeah, they are.

00:15:53 - They have inflation,

00:15:54 but they're going to have a hard time raising rates right now

00:15:56 because they are raising into a much worse economic situation.

00:15:59 So what does that mean?

00:16:00 It means the Euro is going to keep collapsing.

00:16:02 It means the dollar is going to keep strengthening.

00:16:03 At some point, that does part of the Fed's job, right?

00:16:06 The Fed has to start to use common sense.

00:16:08 And it's just, they go from being willfully

00:16:11 or blissfully ignorant for years,

00:16:13 to all of a sudden focusing and being myopic on one thing.

00:16:16 And I think that there's a middle ground somewhere, Dan.

00:16:18 - Going back to Jamie Dimon,

00:16:20 he was quoted in a paper in Europe prior to earnings,

00:16:23 basically saying that the Fed is way optimistic

00:16:26 that they think inflation is going to get to 4%.

00:16:28 So this is something you've been talking about,

00:16:30 Guy, even with crude oil down 30% from that February spike.

00:16:34 And to your point, Danny, gasoline,

00:16:36 we're going to get to through the peak driving season.

00:16:38 We've seen the national average go from five bucks

00:16:41 down to 4.70.

00:16:42 It's likely to be somewhere around four

00:16:44 by sometime in September, October.

00:16:46 Let's be clear on that.

00:16:47 I guess the point is,

00:16:48 is like we're still having lockdowns in China.

00:16:51 There's headlines about it today.

00:16:53 To your point about Europe,

00:16:54 it just seems like an unholy mess.

00:16:56 Do you want to talk about Mario Draghi

00:16:58 resigning in Italy?

00:16:59 I mean, like, it just seems like

00:17:01 from one place to the next to the next,

00:17:03 it's getting worse there.

00:17:04 So it's kind of a hard one.

00:17:06 I just don't see our stock market bottoming.

00:17:08 I don't see the dollar coming in meaningfully.

00:17:11 I don't see crude oil and a lot of these commodities

00:17:14 getting back on the horse either in a global recession.

00:17:17 So it goes back to a sort of stagflationary environment.

00:17:20 - So what you're saying, Dan, in a lot of ways is,

00:17:23 to quote the great Allman brothers,

00:17:25 in 1994, I think the Allman brothers released a studio album

00:17:29 called "Where It All Begins."

00:17:31 One of the great songs on that album is

00:17:33 no one left to run with anymore.

00:17:35 Everybody wants to know, Danny, where Jimmy has gone.

00:17:38 He left home.

00:17:40 I'm tired of, right?

00:17:41 I mean, you know the line, right?

00:17:42 - Oh, wait, did you listen?

00:17:43 You were off last week.

00:17:44 Did you listen?

00:17:45 Danny and I had a little-

00:17:46 - Did a little Allman brothers thing?

00:17:46 - No, we went back and forth on,

00:17:48 speaking of no one left to run with,

00:17:50 what do you buy in this environment?

00:17:51 - Well, that's my point.

00:17:52 Because what do you buy?

00:17:53 There's nobody left to run with.

00:17:55 What are you doing here?

00:17:56 - Danny's Gold just made a new 52-week low today.

00:17:59 - Oh, it's so horrible, the Gold.

00:18:00 I still take it over everything else.

00:18:02 All right, can I say one other thing?

00:18:03 - You don't need to ask permission, okay?

00:18:05 You just do your thing.

00:18:06 - Well, I feel like Dan will say, "Okay, wonky man."

00:18:09 They're really, listeners just hit pause, fast forward.

00:18:11 Okay.

00:18:12 - First of all, that's patently false.

00:18:14 Again, people want to hear what you say.

00:18:16 As wonky as you are, you've been right.

00:18:18 You've been spot on all this wonky shit

00:18:20 that makes people's eyes glaze over a year ago now,

00:18:23 but he's locked into.

00:18:24 And oh, by the way, people on network television

00:18:26 are talking about the shit that you brought up a year ago.

00:18:29 Now it's in everybody's vernacular.

00:18:31 I heard the other day, by the way,

00:18:32 now I'm on a bit of a rant.

00:18:33 Mike Santoli, who I happen to like,

00:18:35 he's on TV all fucking day, by the way.

00:18:37 It's like, they better be paying him a shitload of money

00:18:39 'cause they run him into the fucking ground, number one.

00:18:42 Number two, he actually said,

00:18:44 "You know what's really interesting here, Joe or whomever?

00:18:48 "Bond volatility."

00:18:49 I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?

00:18:50 "Now you're talking about bond and currency volatility?"

00:18:53 - Exactly. - So yeah, thank you.

00:18:54 So my answer to you is yes, part of that bond volatility.

00:18:58 Here's what we're gonna get over the next,

00:18:59 you're gonna read about this in the next coming weeks, okay?

00:19:02 So everyone, both on the consumer and on the commercial side

00:19:05 have lines of credit that they draw on, they use it.

00:19:08 I guarantee they've been drawn in the last few months.

00:19:10 Well, a lot of these things have minimum percentages on them.

00:19:13 Let's take the consumer, for instance.

00:19:14 Say you have a line of credit,

00:19:15 you're drawing against one of your assets.

00:19:17 Normally it's LIBOR plus this, floor of 3%.

00:19:20 You didn't have to worry about getting the 3% moving

00:19:22 because the Fed had kept rates low, which keeps prime.

00:19:25 Whatever you're based upon, look, I'm telling you right now,

00:19:28 the mailings that went out this last month

00:19:29 when the Fed made their last move that they did,

00:19:31 the 75 basis point move, there's a new sheriff in town

00:19:34 and it's 3.6, it's 3.8, they're going again,

00:19:36 it's gonna be 5%.

00:19:38 So any lines of credit personal,

00:19:39 and that's gonna start to eat into the wallets

00:19:42 in corporate and consumer America, go.

00:19:43 - You had a real opportunity

00:19:45 to channel your inner Eddie Murphy

00:19:47 and do there's a new sheriff in town.

00:19:49 - Reggie Hammond. - And his name is Reggie Hammond.

00:19:51 But you didn't do it. - I didn't do it.

00:19:52 - You shit the bed there and you can't go back and do it.

00:19:55 I'm sorry.

00:19:56 - Is that in your top 15 movies, 48 hours?

00:19:57 - No, but it's a great, it's in one of my,

00:19:59 it's in my top five Eddie Murphy movies.

00:20:01 Eddie Murphy's a fucking genius

00:20:02 and I'm cursing a lot this time 'cause I am fired up.

00:20:04 He could read the phone book and I would watch him do it

00:20:06 'cause he's the funniest man, in my opinion,

00:20:08 in the last 40 years.

00:20:09 Dan Nathan, please.

00:20:11 Dan is looking at me.

00:20:12 See, you can't see this, folks.

00:20:13 - I'm just entertained, keep going.

00:20:14 - No, don't be entertained.

00:20:15 Do I entertain you?

00:20:16 I mean.

00:20:17 - The other thing which no one wants to talk about,

00:20:19 and again, the Fed will ignore,

00:20:21 and you mentioned China's in lockdown.

00:20:23 COVID's coming back here.

00:20:25 This sucks.

00:20:26 Like, no one wants to talk about it.

00:20:28 I get it, you can ignore it all you want,

00:20:29 but I have friends that are now getting it again

00:20:31 that are sick and they'll be okay.

00:20:33 Hopefully everybody okay,

00:20:34 but I think it's something to think about also

00:20:35 as we end towards, you want to talk about slowing economy?

00:20:38 Not to belittle it or put it in any,

00:20:40 because it's tragic and of its own,

00:20:42 but it's happening again.

00:20:43 And whether because we've been through the booster cycle

00:20:46 and we've lost our ability to, I don't know,

00:20:48 but it's something else that's gonna be out there

00:20:49 and that's gonna be rearing its head.

00:20:50 So hate to talk about it, but it is.

00:20:52 - Savita Subramanian, she does a great job.

00:20:56 She's been on Fast Money myriad of times.

00:20:58 We should actually have her on this podcast.

00:21:00 She made news this week because she took her target

00:21:03 for the S&P down to 3,600.

00:21:06 Now, Danny, you say this all the time,

00:21:08 and I want you to opine a bit.

00:21:10 If you're bullish, if you have a 5,000 price target in S&P

00:21:14 and it doesn't get there,

00:21:15 there are no ramifications in this world

00:21:18 for being bullish and wrong,

00:21:20 but God forbid if you're bearish and almost by definition,

00:21:23 a 3,600 price target in the S&P is bearish,

00:21:26 there are ramifications for that.

00:21:28 So she knows that, she's not dumb, yet she did it anyway,

00:21:31 which to me speaks volumes, Danny Moses.

00:21:33 - Yeah, I think, well, listen,

00:21:34 you wanna see everyone do that,

00:21:35 then you know it's probably time to buy.

00:21:37 But yeah, I think the risk reward of saying like that is

00:21:39 you gotta be differentiator.

00:21:41 She's brilliant.

00:21:42 I mean, I think she does her work.

00:21:43 I don't think she randomly throws stuff at a wall

00:21:45 like many other strategists that are out there,

00:21:47 maybe some that we've had potentially on the show at times,

00:21:49 but listen, there's thought that goes into it.

00:21:51 Again, it is so hard right now to figure out what,

00:21:54 this is the hardest market to trade

00:21:56 because what are the inputs going to be?

00:21:58 Things are moving like that too hard.

00:21:59 So again, you're gonna get a lot of this.

00:22:01 People are coming in and bringing price targets in on stocks,

00:22:04 bringing S&P targets lower,

00:22:06 and that's what you wanna see

00:22:07 in order to get some type of comfort level,

00:22:09 but this is not gonna be easy.

00:22:10 - So on June 14th, it was a Wednesday, I believe,

00:22:13 that was the Fed meeting,

00:22:14 that Jerome Powell walked off stage,

00:22:16 and oh, by the way, if you're a millennial

00:22:17 and you think about buying a home,

00:22:19 you might wanna reconsider it.

00:22:20 We can talk about that if you want,

00:22:22 'cause he's clearly trying to talk down to housing,

00:22:24 but without question, housing is something

00:22:26 that's front and center on their radar screen.

00:22:28 I mean, he just didn't drop that to drop it,

00:22:30 but that day the market rallied.

00:22:33 I thought on "Fast Money" that night,

00:22:34 and I talked about it on our podcast.

00:22:36 I said there's a very good chance

00:22:37 we have this counter-trend rally back to 4,100,

00:22:39 the S&P 500.

00:22:41 I think the S&P was like 3,600 and changed that day.

00:22:44 We got up to 3,955-ish, and here we are.

00:22:48 So my question, I guess, is was that the rally,

00:22:52 and are we sort of almost, is it fait accompli,

00:22:55 as the French say, Dan, that we're gonna go down

00:22:56 to this 3,200 that you've been talking about now for months?

00:23:00 - I mean, listen, we've been talking about it

00:23:01 on the pod here.

00:23:02 The rallies that we've seen,

00:23:03 the counter-trend rallies off of lows,

00:23:04 they just keep getting weaker and weaker,

00:23:06 and the one that we had off of the May low

00:23:08 was weaker than the one we had off of March,

00:23:09 and the June one was weaker than the May.

00:23:12 So here we are, we're limping into earnings season.

00:23:14 I always kind of wanna be careful with the banks here.

00:23:17 When you have so much negative sentiment,

00:23:19 we've talked about how they were leading to the downside,

00:23:21 and then you get that bad result and poor guidance,

00:23:25 and look at this right now.

00:23:26 JP Morgan hasn't rallied a whole heck of a lot off the lows

00:23:29 as we go into the close on Thursday.

00:23:31 There's 30 minutes left.

00:23:32 It's down 3 1/2%.

00:23:33 It was down maybe 5% of the lows,

00:23:35 but Morgan Stanley, which also had

00:23:37 supposedly a difficult quarter and okay guidance,

00:23:40 is basically unchanged on the day.

00:23:42 So it's recovered from being down 3% or 4%.

00:23:44 So the idea of pressing all of this negative sentiment

00:23:48 and the bad news that we know that's here

00:23:50 is probably a bad trade, if you will,

00:23:52 and I'll just mention this also,

00:23:54 that overnight Taiwan Semi, right,

00:23:56 they reported, it was kind of a mixed bag.

00:23:58 I mean, it was a decent enough, but they talked about,

00:24:00 listen, the demand is pretty good,

00:24:02 but we're also seeing an inventory situation here,

00:24:05 and that would be the backside

00:24:07 of this whole stagflationary thing.

00:24:09 If we see inventories build in large pockets,

00:24:12 that would be a real problem for growth going forward.

00:24:14 So to me, I think we've been talking

00:24:17 one thing very specifically.

00:24:19 We need capitulation like we saw the strategists

00:24:22 take down their targets for the broad market,

00:24:25 but we also need to see analysts

00:24:26 bring down their S&P earnings estimates,

00:24:28 and that has not happened yet.

00:24:29 - I came in very hot today,

00:24:30 and Amanda Diaz, our crack producer,

00:24:32 asked me to do something, and I didn't do it.

00:24:34 I'll do it now at this point of the On the Tape podcast.

00:24:38 Leave us a review.

00:24:39 If you like what you've heard,

00:24:41 if you don't like what you've heard,

00:24:42 if you think I'm a Johnson,

00:24:44 if you think Danny is the sexiest man

00:24:45 in the history of the United States,

00:24:47 if you think Dan Nathan was a marginal lacrosse player,

00:24:51 if you think anything, please leave us a review.

00:24:54 It helps us.

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00:24:58 It helps Dan Nathan.

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00:25:00 So please, folks, leave a review.

00:25:03 Danny Moses.

00:25:04 - So there's a generation of investors, again,

00:25:06 we'll say, that have only known the Fed has had your back.

00:25:09 These are natural market forces at work,

00:25:12 which are coming at people from all sides.

00:25:13 - By the way, that's okay.

00:25:14 - That's fine.

00:25:15 - That's the way it should be.

00:25:16 - We are in the hurricane in that regard

00:25:18 to what Jamie Dimon was, maybe not an economic hurricane,

00:25:20 but we're in a, stuff's flying everywhere.

00:25:22 And you have analysts that are literally looking up

00:25:24 correlations to yen, euro.

00:25:26 What does that mean?

00:25:27 What's this?

00:25:28 - They've never had to do that in the history

00:25:30 of their careers, had to look at correlations, dollar, yen.

00:25:33 And by the way, I'm not trying to be an alarmist here.

00:25:36 We're in July right now.

00:25:37 It's sort of warm outside.

00:25:39 Pretty sure it's warm in Europe.

00:25:40 It ain't gonna be warm four or five months from now.

00:25:42 And I hate to say this, I happen to think I'm true.

00:25:45 There are people in Europe, they're gonna have to decide

00:25:47 whether they wanna heat their homes or eat.

00:25:49 It's that binary.

00:25:51 And we're gonna be talking about that in October,

00:25:53 November of this year.

00:25:53 Just stay tuned, sports fans.

00:25:55 - I totally agree.

00:25:56 And let me go back to Dan's point about how we kind of

00:25:58 stair-step down to 32 or 3300.

00:26:00 It's almost in the worst kind of way.

00:26:02 'Cause if it doesn't happen on a massive capitulation moment

00:26:05 like a down 15, 20 in a day or two,

00:26:07 what's happening is we're getting these rally two to 3%,

00:26:10 sell off seven over a period of five.

00:26:12 Those are the worst kind because what people are doing

00:26:14 is they're saying, all right, I'm back in, I'm out.

00:26:16 They're buying back at the kind of the highs

00:26:18 or selling at the lows.

00:26:19 And unfortunately, that's painful.

00:26:20 And unfortunately, that's what I see that's occurring.

00:26:22 Again, we can move on from this, but I'll say,

00:26:24 it's the quality and your timeframe has to change.

00:26:26 It's not about a week, a month, or even a quarter.

00:26:29 I think people start to think about really investing

00:26:31 as opposed to trading.

00:26:32 And I think there is an investable market always.

00:26:34 We have to speak about Tesla

00:26:37 because it wouldn't be an on the tape podcast

00:26:40 if we didn't speak about Tesla.

00:26:41 Dan has known me long enough to think I'm out of my mind.

00:26:44 And I'm sure Danny Moses has known me long enough to think,

00:26:47 I sort of like the way Guy Adami thinks.

00:26:49 And I've said this before

00:26:51 and people have looked at me cross-eyed.

00:26:53 But now I'm saying to myself, holy shit,

00:26:57 I think I've been right all along.

00:26:59 Why do I say this?

00:27:00 Give me a second and I'll let you know.

00:27:02 Donald Trump, the former president of the United States,

00:27:05 he's not on Twitter.

00:27:06 What is he, something called what?

00:27:08 - Truth Social.

00:27:09 - Say it with a little enthusiasm.

00:27:11 He's on something called Truth Social.

00:27:13 And he tweeted this the other day, or whatever.

00:27:16 It's not a tweet on Truth Social.

00:27:17 - He truthed it.

00:27:18 - He truthed this the other day.

00:27:20 And I'm gonna read it.

00:27:22 "When Elon Musk came to the White House

00:27:24 "asking me for help on all of his many subsidized projects,

00:27:29 "whether it's electric cars that don't drive long enough,

00:27:32 "driverless cars that crash, or rocket ships to nowhere,"

00:27:37 which is actually pretty funny,

00:27:39 "without which subsidies he'd be worthless,

00:27:42 "and telling me how he was a big Trump fan and Republican,

00:27:47 "I could have had him said, quote,

00:27:49 "drop to your knees and beg, and he would have done it."

00:27:53 That's a tweet or a truth from Donald Trump.

00:27:55 Now, go ahead, Danny, say a few things

00:27:58 'cause I'm gonna get into the sentiment.

00:27:59 - Well, I mean, you know, which is funny,

00:28:01 two of my least favorite people on planet Earth,

00:28:03 and they're actually saying things

00:28:05 that I agree with them about both the people,

00:28:06 which is, it's really hard.

00:28:08 I don't know what the enemy of your enemy is.

00:28:09 I don't even know what the--

00:28:10 - It's crazy, right?

00:28:11 - Yeah, what the thing is.

00:28:12 But what it does tell me is we went back and wondered,

00:28:14 because I apologize, Dan, for taking you down

00:28:16 this Tesla hole over the last year and a half.

00:28:19 And I know you've always known the company had interest,

00:28:21 but I think being around me has,

00:28:22 it's gonna cause you some anguish,

00:28:24 but we're gonna be right eventually.

00:28:25 But now you look back.

00:28:26 He was in the White House, we know, in 2017.

00:28:29 You know, 2018, he's been there various times,

00:28:32 and he was playing the game that he needed to play.

00:28:34 We went back and say he was protected.

00:28:36 That was always the theory.

00:28:37 - Well, Guy has actually been saying that for four years.

00:28:39 - So now you're onto something.

00:28:41 Now we're looking at each other like we're both crazy,

00:28:43 and maybe we are. - No, we're not.

00:28:45 - Because I said this, when this happened,

00:28:47 I actually stopped in my tracks and said,

00:28:50 whoa, Joe Kernan, who goes to Davos every year,

00:28:54 Joe Kernan from Squawk Box in the morning,

00:28:57 six to nine a.m., he was in Davos, Switzerland.

00:29:01 He was interviewing then-President Trump,

00:29:03 and he asked him a number of questions,

00:29:05 and I'll say this, it's 'cause it's sort of funny,

00:29:07 but after he asked him what your favorite color is,

00:29:10 Mr. President, he said, "I wanna play word association."

00:29:14 I'm paraphrasing, but I'm pretty close.

00:29:16 My memory is still pretty good.

00:29:18 And he said, "Elon Musk."

00:29:21 And Trump said, "Elon Musk,

00:29:23 "one of our brilliant people here."

00:29:26 - Genius he called him. - "One of our geniuses.

00:29:27 "We have to protect our geniuses,

00:29:29 "the man that invented the wheel,

00:29:30 "the guy that invented electricity."

00:29:32 And then he said something to the effect of,

00:29:35 "We did a lot for him."

00:29:37 A lot of my people say how much trouble they were in,

00:29:40 and we did a lot for them.

00:29:42 They're gonna do a lot for us.

00:29:43 And I will tell you, I heard that, I'm like, holy shit,

00:29:46 because one of the things that was going on,

00:29:48 SEC investigation, the stock was under pressure.

00:29:51 I will tell you, go back and look,

00:29:53 the stock never ticked lower from that point on.

00:29:55 And I said it on a show, I'm like,

00:29:57 I don't know what the fuck's going on here, people,

00:30:00 but he's got air cover, he being Elon Musk.

00:30:02 Well, you know what, that air cover is now left.

00:30:05 And I'm telling you, just wait and see.

00:30:07 Trump will put out another truth

00:30:10 talking about all the things they did for Tesla and the stock

00:30:13 and people are gonna say, whoa, that's some crazy shit.

00:30:16 So this Tesla chapter in the book,

00:30:18 this is still gonna continue on, Danny Moses.

00:30:21 - Well, let's go over some of the quotes.

00:30:22 - You think I'm crazy?

00:30:23 - No, listen, what do you mean?

00:30:24 I know it was January 2020, 'cause I took,

00:30:27 I said, I should never be short the stock again.

00:30:29 And I said, nah, that can't be right.

00:30:31 Fundamentals will matter, they'll play out.

00:30:33 I mean, so anyway, they're both narcissists.

00:30:35 They both had a relationship or knowledge

00:30:37 with Jeffrey Epstein, right, whatever, right?

00:30:40 So they have that in common, congratulations, guys.

00:30:42 They both have no regard for the law.

00:30:44 They both will do whatever they can

00:30:45 to obviously get their way.

00:30:47 They both bully and intimidate wherever they can

00:30:49 and they never get stopped, they just kept going on.

00:30:51 But here are the quotes, right?

00:30:52 You did some of the quotes, let me go back over them,

00:30:53 which I agree with all of them.

00:30:55 So Musk about Trump, bull in a China shop,

00:30:58 he should hang up his hat and sail into the sunset.

00:31:00 Okay, old man staring at a cloud,

00:31:02 he put out that meme in the Simpsons.

00:31:04 Okay, I agree with all that.

00:31:05 Trump on Musk, right, you just said,

00:31:07 he makes driverless cars that crash,

00:31:09 couldn't agree with him more.

00:31:10 Rocket ships to nowhere, agree.

00:31:13 He says, I could have said dropped you knees in bag

00:31:15 and he would have done it.

00:31:16 And the best part is that he would have failed

00:31:17 without government subsidies.

00:31:19 I've never agreed with these two guys ever

00:31:21 and I agree with both about what they're saying

00:31:22 to each other, Dan.

00:31:23 - Just hand me a bucket of popcorn

00:31:25 and I'll sit here and watch.

00:31:26 - Well, that's what it's gonna be.

00:31:27 It's gonna be popcorn worthy, but I'll say this.

00:31:30 I actually think along with being worthy

00:31:32 of sitting and eating popcorn, by the way,

00:31:34 I like that cheddar coated popcorn,

00:31:36 but it's gonna be stock moving as well.

00:31:39 - So the timing, I think, of this little kind of

00:31:41 truth tweet thing back and forth is pretty interesting

00:31:44 because a couple of weeks ago, if you guys remember

00:31:46 on what Danny would call was a Friday afternoon dirty.

00:31:50 - Friday night dirty.

00:31:50 - Friday night dirty, where they announced

00:31:52 that three for one stock split.

00:31:54 They also announced that Larry Ellison

00:31:55 was gonna be leaving the board of Tesla.

00:31:58 And what's interesting about that is

00:31:59 Larry Ellison's a big MAGA asshole.

00:32:01 He's a huge Trump supporter, he was.

00:32:03 Remember Trump almost delivered him,

00:32:06 almost delivered Oracle TikTok by decree.

00:32:09 And then he said, and I want a piece of it.

00:32:11 Remember that?

00:32:12 All right, so then Larry Ellison quietly leaves Elon's board

00:32:16 because he basically knows that Elon and Trump

00:32:19 are about to go to war with each other.

00:32:21 So there's just so much going on right here.

00:32:24 And then just to me, the other thing

00:32:26 that no one's even talking about

00:32:28 because Elon's too busy having babies

00:32:30 and truth in this and doing that or whatever

00:32:33 is that they're head of AI, of the self-driving thing.

00:32:36 The thing that's actually the reason why

00:32:39 these dreamers who own the stock

00:32:41 think it's worth $700 billion,

00:32:44 he leaves the company with no concrete plans

00:32:47 to do anything on the doorstep

00:32:49 of them introducing level four full self-driving.

00:32:53 By the way, I happen to think Vinnie and Porter

00:32:57 were with us when this thing dropped.

00:32:59 And oh, by the way, you say-

00:33:00 - We were on a spaces, that we were on a spaces.

00:33:01 - That's right, we were on a spaces together.

00:33:03 And by the way, you say Vinnie and Porter,

00:33:05 well, you know who they are.

00:33:06 And by the way, they just dropped another investor.

00:33:09 They're up 85%.

00:33:11 - Oh, you're on their list now?

00:33:12 - That's not a fucking typo, 85%.

00:33:14 So good for them.

00:33:16 It makes, you know what, it makes me really happy.

00:33:18 And I almost want to root for the Mets

00:33:19 when I see something like that.

00:33:20 Anyway, I just thought I'd mention it.

00:33:22 - Yeah, well, Dan, Larry Ellison,

00:33:23 that was Friday night, June 10th, okay,

00:33:25 where that news came out.

00:33:26 Three for one, yay.

00:33:27 Oh yeah, Ellison's leaving, no big deal.

00:33:29 So it turns out, as we saw today in the Wall Street Journal

00:33:32 that the SEC had made an inquiry into,

00:33:34 hey, this is 8K type stuff.

00:33:36 So for everyone out there,

00:33:37 an 8K is when you're a public company

00:33:38 and you say something that can be deemed

00:33:40 to be market moving,

00:33:41 and you do say it without putting out the proper form.

00:33:43 Anyway, Musk has done that forever,

00:33:45 but they decided to call him out on it

00:33:46 as it relates to his intent on Twitter,

00:33:49 because he's affecting a 30, $40 billion company

00:33:52 at the same time, the shareholders and everything.

00:33:53 So that happened prior to June 7th.

00:33:56 And on June 7th, the lawyers that represent Musk

00:34:00 sent back, "We will continue to be mindful of what we say."

00:34:03 And now they're coming back again.

00:34:04 So none of this is a coincidence, right?

00:34:06 This is all kind of leading up.

00:34:07 So Dan, before you opine here, I want to say something.

00:34:10 I should have stood by my investment philosophy on Tesla

00:34:13 the same way I did Carvana.

00:34:15 I was short some Carvana, but I really let it up at 80.

00:34:17 'Cause once it broke and it became clear

00:34:19 that it wasn't resting on fundamentals,

00:34:20 of which Tesla doesn't.

00:34:21 - It's at 20 right now, people.

00:34:23 - So Tesla probably is a better,

00:34:25 I know this sounds obscene,

00:34:26 is it probably a better short at 300 than it is at 700,

00:34:29 because what will make it move from seven to three

00:34:31 is the break in kind of the cult nature of this name.

00:34:34 - All right, so question for you, Danny,

00:34:35 'cause you've been following this story very closely

00:34:37 and I was following it more as a talking head for years.

00:34:40 And now I got a little skin in the game and it just hurts.

00:34:42 It just hurts.

00:34:43 (Danny laughs)

00:34:44 But my question to you here is that if Elon Musk,

00:34:48 okay, the CEO of Tesla, okay,

00:34:51 one of the largest market cap companies in the world,

00:34:54 if a Delaware court forces him to buy Twitter

00:34:59 for $44 billion, which he had agreed to do,

00:35:02 and let's say he doesn't do it.

00:35:04 And then there's some sort of like major legal action,

00:35:08 not by Twitter and their shareholders,

00:35:11 but by the government.

00:35:12 What does that mean for his standing as the CEO of Tesla?

00:35:17 - Dan, he's done, I could name a dozen things already

00:35:20 that would basically preclude him for being a CEO of anything.

00:35:22 - No, I know, but wouldn't that make him unsuitable?

00:35:24 Like, wouldn't any normal board have to kick his ass

00:35:27 out of the company?

00:35:28 - This is the problem with the regulators,

00:35:31 with the SEC and everybody else,

00:35:32 which back to where we started with this 15 minutes ago,

00:35:35 whatever it's been, has been,

00:35:37 because it was protected or would have got away with so much

00:35:39 that there was a belief in the quote system

00:35:41 that he'll never get taken down, that nothing will,

00:35:43 and always, by the way,

00:35:45 it happens when you finally drop your guard

00:35:47 and you realize, I'm not even paying attention to it

00:35:48 'cause nothing can happen.

00:35:49 I agree with you, Dan, he's not fit to be CEO.

00:35:51 He should have stepped down long ago.

00:35:53 His board is nowhere.

00:35:54 They're just there as-

00:35:55 - So if he steps down tomorrow,

00:35:57 let's just say hypothetically, there's a filing

00:35:58 and he's just gonna be the largest shareholder.

00:36:00 - 550, 550.

00:36:01 - Stock goes straight to 550?

00:36:03 - Way below 550.

00:36:04 - So all of his disciples leave, basically,

00:36:07 like the shareholders.

00:36:08 - Asterisk.

00:36:08 - They're like-

00:36:09 - You know what an asterisk is on the Bloomberg?

00:36:10 - Roger Marris knows what one was

00:36:12 because they put an asterisk next to his name in 1961,

00:36:15 which was complete bullshit 'cause Roger Marris was legit.

00:36:18 Now all these assholes-

00:36:20 - You think it's a straight shot to 500?

00:36:20 - Again, just wants to go right past baseball.

00:36:22 - A straight shot to 500.

00:36:24 - I don't think it opens that day, to be honest.

00:36:26 So you want my honest, I don't think the stock opens that day.

00:36:28 I mean, I think then,

00:36:29 so I don't know if you want to make that call,

00:36:31 if you make that call,

00:36:32 then you should feel pretty good about your short.

00:36:33 - But I guess the point that I'm trying to get to

00:36:35 is something very simple,

00:36:37 is that when he got in trouble with the SEC a few years ago,

00:36:39 he had to pay a $20 million fine, he had to stop tweeting,

00:36:43 he had board approval of his tweets,

00:36:44 he had to relinquish his chairman of the board.

00:36:47 So what if he's kicked off the board

00:36:49 and he has to step down?

00:36:52 And then think about all of the loans,

00:36:54 all of the stock, right, that he has margin

00:36:57 with all these banks all over the US.

00:36:59 - Dan, Dan, I can tell you exactly what happens

00:37:01 if all the things you're saying play out.

00:37:03 Every firm downgrades the stock,

00:37:05 Tesla's at a hundred bucks, 150,

00:37:06 and everyone runs and hides

00:37:08 'cause there's no more fees to get.

00:37:10 And I know we find ourselves

00:37:11 talking about the stock all the time,

00:37:12 but it's too good because it represents

00:37:14 pretty much everything that's going on right now

00:37:16 in the markets and the capital markets specifically.

00:37:19 So maybe something happens,

00:37:20 maybe there's a time when we get back on this podcast one day

00:37:23 and do a post-mortem on it,

00:37:24 and I look forward to that time.

00:37:25 And just in general, guys,

00:37:26 the post-mortem on this episode was fired up.

00:37:29 You guys were too.

00:37:30 And I'll tell you, we're gonna get more fired up

00:37:31 because when we come back,

00:37:32 we had the pleasure of sitting down

00:37:34 with New York Times bestselling author, Jason Kander,

00:37:37 who has a new book called "Invisible Storm,

00:37:39 The Soldier's Memoir of Politics and PTSD."

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00:38:59 Hey, it's Dan here.

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00:39:49 See important disclosures at masterworks.io/disclaimer.

00:39:53 Jason Kander, a former army captain

00:39:58 who served in Afghanistan,

00:39:59 was the first millennial ever elected to a statewide office.

00:40:03 He is a president of National Expansion

00:40:06 at Veterans Community Project, a nonprofit organization,

00:40:10 and host of Majority 54, a popular political podcast.

00:40:16 Jason's first book, "Outside the Wire,"

00:40:18 was a New York Times bestseller.

00:40:21 "An Invisible Storm," a soldier's memoir of politics

00:40:24 and PTSD, will be a New York Times bestseller.

00:40:29 Jason joins us here on the tape.

00:40:31 Jason, first of all, thank you for your book.

00:40:33 More importantly, thank you for your service to our country.

00:40:36 - Thank you, Guy.

00:40:37 I really appreciate it.

00:40:38 I'm glad to be with y'all.

00:40:39 - So before we get into the nuts and bolts of things,

00:40:42 I'm gonna put out a date to you.

00:40:43 I wanna see how good you are.

00:40:44 July 24th, 1983, Bronx, New York.

00:40:49 Mean anything to you?

00:40:51 - It's the Pintar game.

00:40:52 - That is the Pintar game, where George Brett lost his mind.

00:40:57 By the way, I love George Brett.

00:40:58 He owned the Yankees.

00:40:59 You're a huge Kansas City Royal fan.

00:41:00 I will tell you, my favorite Royal of all time

00:41:03 was the great Amos Otis.

00:41:06 Yours?

00:41:07 - George Brett, but I've hung out with Amos Otis.

00:41:10 And incredibly awesome guy,

00:41:11 tells great stories about playing back then.

00:41:14 Look, my son wears number five

00:41:16 on the little league team I coach.

00:41:18 The only reason I don't wear number five

00:41:19 on my over 30 wood bat baseball team that I play on

00:41:23 is because the manager of the team was like,

00:41:25 we retired number five in the Kansas City League.

00:41:27 You're not allowed to wear it.

00:41:29 I'm a George Brett guy.

00:41:30 - I gotta tell you something.

00:41:31 When the Royals came to town, that was must watch.

00:41:34 And he absolutely owned the Yankees,

00:41:35 but he owned everybody else as well.

00:41:36 And those Royal Yankees series back in the day

00:41:39 were tremendous.

00:41:40 I'm looking forward to the day where the Royals

00:41:43 get back to where they should be,

00:41:45 'cause it's a very proud franchise,

00:41:47 but we're not there yet anyway.

00:41:49 That's my contribution to this.

00:41:50 Dan, why don't you explain to the folks how you two met?

00:41:54 - Jason, I don't know if you recall this,

00:41:55 but you and I, it was February, 2020.

00:41:58 We were on the set.

00:41:59 We were about to do Stephanie Rule's show.

00:42:01 I think it was a 9 a.m. show in the morning.

00:42:03 She is now obviously on the 11th hour

00:42:06 and we were both big fans of hers.

00:42:07 But it was kind of interesting for me

00:42:09 is that Guy and I, we meet a lot of people in green rooms

00:42:12 for our CNBC show.

00:42:14 I was like, "Oh, I know this guy."

00:42:16 You ran for Senate in 2016, a very close race

00:42:20 in a very, very important election year.

00:42:23 I started listening to your podcast, "Majority 54."

00:42:25 You had a lot of very astute,

00:42:27 I would say political takes on the podcast.

00:42:31 And reading this book, "Invisible Storm,"

00:42:33 which you sent me, you reached out,

00:42:34 we were chatting about it and everything like that.

00:42:36 It was really interesting

00:42:37 because there's really two stories going on here.

00:42:39 Jason Kander in his 20s and going to American

00:42:43 and being a Georgetown Law

00:42:45 and marrying basically your high school sweetheart,

00:42:48 just the aspirations that you had also as a patriot

00:42:51 and wanting to serve your country and being the ROTC

00:42:53 while you were in law school.

00:42:55 Just think about that.

00:42:56 And then the other path of the story

00:42:57 is after you're serving and coming back

00:42:59 and all your political aspirations.

00:43:01 So talk to us a little bit about it

00:43:02 because there are two stories here.

00:43:04 They obviously come together

00:43:05 in a very harsh sort of reality,

00:43:07 but it really is an uplifting story

00:43:10 when you come out of it too.

00:43:11 - Well, first of all, thanks.

00:43:13 I really appreciate that.

00:43:13 And before I even get into it, Dan,

00:43:15 I wanna go back and reference the day we met

00:43:17 because I remember that extremely well.

00:43:19 And I'm curious if you experienced it the way I did,

00:43:21 which was everybody kind of remembers where they were

00:43:24 when it became clear to them

00:43:26 what COVID was really gonna look like.

00:43:29 For me, my moment was we were live on MSNBC

00:43:32 when I don't remember the name of the guy

00:43:34 'cause the third panelist for us

00:43:36 was I think an epidemiologist.

00:43:38 And he was explaining, and this was February,

00:43:40 so it was before everything shut down.

00:43:42 He was explaining what it was gonna be like.

00:43:44 And I remember looking at you and looking at Stephanie

00:43:46 and we're all like, holy hell.

00:43:48 - That's actually a really interesting point.

00:43:50 So the guy's name was Matt McCarthy

00:43:52 and he was a epidemiologist in a hospital here in New York.

00:43:56 And he and I stuck around.

00:43:57 I think we all chatted a little bit afterwards.

00:43:59 I actually said to him, I gave him a little advice.

00:44:02 I said, "Dude, you're coming in really hot right now."

00:44:04 And I was like, "Have you checked with your hospital

00:44:06 "about whether or not, you know what I mean?"

00:44:08 And he actually did a lot of media.

00:44:10 He started coming on CNBC.

00:44:11 I introduced him to a couple of producers

00:44:13 and then he stopped altogether.

00:44:15 The one thing I'll just say about that moment

00:44:17 is thinking back now is Guy and I

00:44:19 were doing "Fast Money" on CNBC.

00:44:21 Now, sadly, we often have to look

00:44:24 at whatever is going on in the world

00:44:26 through the lens of the stock market.

00:44:27 That's what we're there to do.

00:44:29 And we had been saying for a good part of January

00:44:32 and February that, hey, listen, man,

00:44:34 cities larger than any in the US, in China,

00:44:37 have been shut down.

00:44:38 And we were taking it very seriously at the time

00:44:41 and that was a moment in time.

00:44:42 And I remember that conversation very closely.

00:44:45 - To your original question,

00:44:46 and actually it fits in well

00:44:47 with what we're talking about here,

00:44:48 which is the country's been through a trauma.

00:44:50 I mean, it's not just me.

00:44:51 Like this book is, it is about the coming of age tale

00:44:55 of pursuing the presidency

00:44:56 while you have an undiagnosed, untreated,

00:44:58 unacknowledged psychological disorder.

00:45:00 So for listeners, if you've heard that one before,

00:45:02 you know, just keep going,

00:45:03 which you probably haven't.

00:45:04 But for me, it's about more than that.

00:45:06 I mean, it's my story and it's about going to therapy

00:45:09 and achieving what I refer to as post-traumatic growth.

00:45:12 But I feel like I spent so much time

00:45:15 trying to belittle my trauma in order to diminish it

00:45:17 and think that would make it go away.

00:45:19 And I meet, particularly on this book tour,

00:45:21 I meet so many people who start conversations with me.

00:45:25 And it's a conversation where they want to tell me

00:45:27 how they related to the book and what it did for them,

00:45:29 but they'll start with, I wasn't in the military

00:45:31 or I didn't go to war.

00:45:32 And I'm always like,

00:45:33 hey, that actually has nothing to do with it.

00:45:35 I wrote this book because pretty much everybody

00:45:38 at some point in their life has some sort of trauma.

00:45:41 And then it's a question of how do you deal with it?

00:45:43 And I had learned a lot.

00:45:44 I have learned a lot through therapy,

00:45:46 and that's really what I wanted to offer with the book.

00:45:49 - Let's talk about this a little bit

00:45:50 because what was the phrase that you just used?

00:45:52 This post-traumatic growth.

00:45:55 And you had been moving towards,

00:45:56 you just mentioned this kind of sequence in the book

00:45:58 when you're talking about some of your early diagnoses

00:46:01 and trying to figure out what you are.

00:46:02 You were always moving hard towards something, right?

00:46:05 And so it just seemed like whether it was school,

00:46:09 whether it was sports, whether it was these campaigns,

00:46:11 when you got back from the military,

00:46:14 what was the thing that triggered you in a way

00:46:16 to notice that there was some common thread

00:46:19 to the way that you were working through

00:46:22 every sort of challenge that you had

00:46:23 and you were going a hundred miles an hour.

00:46:25 But ultimately it seems like there was a period

00:46:27 after you'd won a couple campaigns,

00:46:29 but you were going for the big one, right?

00:46:31 Was it something about that 2016 campaign

00:46:34 running for Senate that really kind of changed it

00:46:36 and really made you recognize that there was something

00:46:40 under the surface that you really had to address?

00:46:42 - I knew that what I was experiencing

00:46:44 was not what other people were experiencing,

00:46:46 but I always had a story I could tell myself.

00:46:48 And that story was deeply seated in a belief that I had.

00:46:51 That belief was that what I did was no big deal

00:46:54 in the military.

00:46:55 And there's a reason for that,

00:46:56 and that is that there's a very necessary form

00:46:58 of brainwashing that the military does.

00:47:01 I say necessary 'cause I'm not knocking it.

00:47:03 And what it does is they tell you

00:47:04 from the moment you get there to your entire,

00:47:06 throughout your service,

00:47:07 that what you're doing is no big deal.

00:47:08 It's necessary because if they didn't do that,

00:47:11 like with me as an intelligence officer,

00:47:13 I'm not going to be able to keep going into rooms

00:47:15 with people who might want to kill me

00:47:17 to gain information and bring it back.

00:47:18 And other folks can't keep conducting patrols.

00:47:21 And so you have to believe that what you're doing

00:47:24 is not that big of a deal.

00:47:25 The problem is, is that when you get out,

00:47:27 nobody flips that switch off.

00:47:28 Nobody says, "Actually, that was quite a big deal."

00:47:31 And so with me, I'm going through all this time

00:47:34 where I'm having night terrors.

00:47:36 I feel like I'm in danger all the time.

00:47:38 I'm having really negative feelings about myself,

00:47:40 really a lot of self-loathing.

00:47:42 But I'm thinking, "Well, it can't be from Afghanistan

00:47:44 because I have an ungood authority

00:47:46 that what I did was no big deal."

00:47:48 And even if I have an inkling

00:47:49 that it could be from Afghanistan,

00:47:51 or if I even at some level kind of know,

00:47:54 I can't acknowledge it

00:47:55 because that feels like stolen power.

00:47:57 That feels like I'm claiming the same mantle

00:47:59 as friends of mine who got shot and things like that.

00:48:02 So the whole time I'm telling myself

00:48:04 that that's not the case,

00:48:05 but I also recognize that other people

00:48:07 aren't stalking their house with a gun at night.

00:48:10 And other people seem to sleep through the night

00:48:12 and they aren't having nightmares about being kidnapped,

00:48:15 which was my greatest concern as an intelligence officer.

00:48:17 So I knew that,

00:48:19 but I was kind of at war with myself over it.

00:48:21 And I started to gradually acknowledge it

00:48:23 when during my Senate campaign,

00:48:25 I remember having this constant feeling of,

00:48:28 "I just got to keep going.

00:48:29 I know that when I'm going, I'm okay."

00:48:31 Now, what I didn't understand at that point was,

00:48:35 it's not the going that made me feel good.

00:48:37 It's the not being with my own thoughts.

00:48:39 It's the not being with intrusive memories

00:48:41 and disruptive emotions.

00:48:43 So then by the time I'm pretty much running for president

00:48:46 in 2018, I'm doing that soft,

00:48:48 I'm gonna run, but I can't legally say it out loud thing,

00:48:51 but I'm going to 46 states

00:48:52 and going to Iowa and New Hampshire all the time.

00:48:55 I'm now at that point kind of acknowledging to myself,

00:48:58 but not saying out loud to anybody

00:49:00 that I'm like any other addict,

00:49:01 that I'm stringing endorphin highs from the campaign trail

00:49:04 and from like career successes together.

00:49:07 And if I can keep them closer together

00:49:09 or make the highs high enough to last, then I'm okay.

00:49:12 And it was the moment where I gave

00:49:14 the biggest speech of my career in New Hampshire,

00:49:17 gave the keynote, carried on national television.

00:49:20 It was really the, "Okay, I'm gonna run" speech.

00:49:24 And it went great, but the endorphin high didn't last.

00:49:27 I mean, by the morning I felt empty.

00:49:29 And that was the first time that I was like,

00:49:30 "Something's seriously wrong."

00:49:32 - You know, people say,

00:49:33 "Well, why would you run for president?"

00:49:34 The reality is President Obama pulled you aside.

00:49:38 You had almost a two hour conversation, I think, with him,

00:49:41 where he encouraged you to do exactly that.

00:49:44 Can you speak to that?

00:49:45 - Yeah, even before I get to that, I gotta explain

00:49:47 that I kind of hit this weird wind pocket

00:49:49 in American culture.

00:49:50 I mean, a lot of this is serendipity, right?

00:49:52 Like, I run for the US Senate in 2016.

00:49:55 Trump wins my state by more than he won Mississippi.

00:49:58 So my party lost by 19 points in my state.

00:50:01 I almost won, I lost by 2.8.

00:50:02 So everybody's looking at me going,

00:50:05 "Well, how'd you do that?

00:50:06 "You're a progressive.

00:50:07 "How'd you get all these Trump voters to vote for you?"

00:50:09 That kind of started it.

00:50:10 And then, so I'm in this wind pocket

00:50:12 and I'm getting mentorship from afar from President Obama.

00:50:15 I'm getting mentorship from other people.

00:50:16 I'm starting to get invited.

00:50:18 Everybody at that point was like,

00:50:19 "What do we do from here?"

00:50:20 People were grasping for leadership.

00:50:22 I think I described it in the book as,

00:50:24 it was like waking up from nuclear annihilation,

00:50:26 coming out of the bunker being super down,

00:50:28 but then trying to get energized about the fact

00:50:30 that the other five survivors were like,

00:50:32 "You think maybe you're in charge?"

00:50:34 And so, that's where I was.

00:50:36 And then, I was already pretty seriously hustling

00:50:38 to put myself in a position to where I could run,

00:50:40 but I wasn't sure that I should be.

00:50:42 I had been a Secretary of State of Missouri,

00:50:44 so I had a little bit of imposter syndrome about it.

00:50:47 But yeah, President Obama pretty well summoned me

00:50:49 to come and see him in Washington.

00:50:51 We had this great conversation where,

00:50:54 it wasn't like he was like, "You're the guy.

00:50:55 "You should run."

00:50:56 But he did say to me, after kind of rolling through

00:50:59 all the potential disadvantages of being somebody

00:51:02 who not enough people knew yet,

00:51:04 he did say that, "You have what I had.

00:51:06 "You're the natural."

00:51:07 And my self-esteem was always suffering 'cause of PTSD.

00:51:11 My self-confidence never really flagged, but that helped it.

00:51:14 - I'll tell you, somebody whose self-confidence

00:51:16 clearly doesn't lag, and I'm not asking you

00:51:18 to play politics here, but Eric Greitens,

00:51:20 who also has written a book, I know some SEALs

00:51:24 that know him as well.

00:51:25 I won't get into their thoughts about him,

00:51:27 but you think about how polarized we've become

00:51:31 when I see some of the ads that he's recently run.

00:51:34 It's shocking, actually.

00:51:35 When you see that, and again, I'm sure a lot of people

00:51:38 listening to this have seen those advertisements.

00:51:41 What does that make you feel like?

00:51:42 - I'm worried about it.

00:51:43 I live in this state.

00:51:45 And so Eric Greitens, I'll give you some insight

00:51:47 on Eric Greitens.

00:51:48 I've known Eric Greitens a decently long time

00:51:50 by political standards, I guess,

00:51:52 'cause we were both existing in the world

00:51:55 of Democratic veterans who were active in politics

00:51:59 around, I don't know, 2013, '14.

00:52:01 So everybody was saying to him, "Do you know Jason Kander?"

00:52:03 And everybody's saying to me, "You must know Eric Greitens."

00:52:05 He lived in St. Louis, I lived in Kansas City.

00:52:07 And he had started the Mission Continues,

00:52:09 which to its credit is a really valuable

00:52:11 veteran-serving organization.

00:52:13 So I met Eric, liked him, we got along very well.

00:52:16 I got involved with Mission Continues.

00:52:17 I'm not a super rich guy, but I became one

00:52:19 of many lower-level donors to it.

00:52:21 And I also was hearing at the time

00:52:24 that Eric was meeting with the Democratic

00:52:26 Congressional Campaign Committee,

00:52:27 that he was figuring out which Democratic congressional,

00:52:30 or which congressional seat he was gonna run for

00:52:32 as a Democrat.

00:52:33 I had plenty of friends in the Democratic Party

00:52:35 who he had been to their events and endorsed them.

00:52:36 He had driven 18 hours with the former Democratic governor

00:52:40 of Missouri to Denver to see President Obama

00:52:42 accept the Democratic nomination in 2008.

00:52:45 And then all of a sudden in 2016,

00:52:48 he decides he's a really, really right-wing Republican,

00:52:51 which was a big surprise to a lot of us,

00:52:53 and announces for governor.

00:52:55 I say all this with the acknowledgement

00:52:57 that him disingenuously changing his politics on a dime

00:53:01 is like 20th on the list of really, really concerning things

00:53:05 that this guy has done.

00:53:06 And for people who are curious,

00:53:08 they can look that up if they don't know.

00:53:10 But that's my personal experience with him.

00:53:12 And look, people change their minds,

00:53:14 they change their views about stuff.

00:53:16 This dude went from pretty far left to pretty far right,

00:53:18 like overnight.

00:53:20 And frankly, that combined with the other stuff he's done,

00:53:22 it's sociopathic behavior.

00:53:24 Like he is a dangerous, frightening dude.

00:53:27 - Yeah, well, it's interesting.

00:53:28 You just used the expression imposter syndrome.

00:53:31 And one of the themes throughout the book,

00:53:33 and when you're trying to deal with this PTSD,

00:53:35 is really you had this guilt.

00:53:38 You just mentioned you were an army intel guy.

00:53:40 You were active for a year and a half,

00:53:42 but you were only in Afghanistan for four months.

00:53:45 You were not on combat patrols,

00:53:48 but you were in very dangerous situations.

00:53:50 So that combination of you feeling guilt

00:53:53 about coming back and not serving in Afghanistan

00:53:57 the way a lot of your fellow soldiers were,

00:54:00 and feeling this, whatever you were feeling after the fact,

00:54:03 you felt like you didn't deserve to do that, right?

00:54:05 You weren't in the trenches

00:54:06 the way a lot of these other soldiers

00:54:08 who've had been named and hurt and obviously even died.

00:54:10 Talk to us a little bit about that,

00:54:13 because it seemed to be,

00:54:14 you got back at some point in the mid to late aughts,

00:54:17 and a lot of the work that you did,

00:54:19 whether it be from a political standpoint or whatever,

00:54:22 it's just running away from all of that.

00:54:24 And so you're running right towards that situation though,

00:54:27 where all of a sudden you find yourself

00:54:29 in the biggest political stage, right?

00:54:32 10 years after getting back to the US,

00:54:34 but still feeling you're not deserving of it.

00:54:36 - I had this sort of mirage out in front of me of redemption

00:54:39 that if I can just do this, I'll feel like I did enough.

00:54:42 And just like you said, in my mind, when I went over,

00:54:45 combat was what you see in the movie "Black Hawk Down."

00:54:48 That's what combat is.

00:54:49 And so I came home having been in these situations

00:54:53 that at the time I understood were exhilarating

00:54:56 and everything, but I hadn't fired my weapon.

00:54:58 And I felt like, well, that's not combat.

00:55:00 And I told myself that for a decade.

00:55:02 And it wasn't until I was sitting down

00:55:04 with a clinical social worker at the VA

00:55:06 after signing to get help, where she said to me,

00:55:08 she was like, let me get this straight.

00:55:09 First, she asked, she said,

00:55:10 your friends who were in firefights,

00:55:11 what did they say about what you did over there?

00:55:13 And I say, well, they always say,

00:55:15 they don't know if they could have done the job I did.

00:55:16 They're being nice.

00:55:17 And she's like, look, they're not.

00:55:19 She was like, you went to the most dangerous place

00:55:22 in the planet, and then you were basically alone,

00:55:24 you and a translator for hours at a time,

00:55:26 totally vulnerable, meeting with people

00:55:28 who you couldn't know whether they were setting a trap

00:55:31 for you or not.

00:55:32 And there was nobody knew where you were.

00:55:33 So nobody was coming to save you.

00:55:35 She's like, that's combat.

00:55:37 You're a combat veteran, that's traumatic.

00:55:38 And it was like, when she said it back to me that way,

00:55:41 I could see it, almost as if somebody was,

00:55:43 and I realized like, if I met somebody

00:55:45 and they told me their deployment and they told me that,

00:55:48 I'd be like, yeah, that's pretty legit.

00:55:50 But to me, the takeaway from all that

00:55:52 is that all of us are going through life in America.

00:55:56 You don't have to be a combat veteran.

00:55:58 Could be a bad divorce, a car accident,

00:55:59 something happened in your childhood

00:56:01 or losing a loved one, watching the news.

00:56:04 I mean, there's so many different ways

00:56:05 to sustain trauma now.

00:56:07 And we all do what I did for 10 years,

00:56:09 which is say, it's no big deal.

00:56:11 Now, I think what complicates that

00:56:14 is there's a big part of the American myth

00:56:16 that pushed me to be charging ahead

00:56:20 and going to the next hill the whole time.

00:56:22 And that is what I think of as like the redemption myth.

00:56:24 And the best example I can think of right now is "Top Gun."

00:56:28 I love both "Top Gun" movies.

00:56:29 My son and I went to see "Top Gun Maverick"

00:56:31 with my dad and my brother.

00:56:32 We'll go again.

00:56:33 So I'm not knocking them.

00:56:34 But the "Top Gun" structure is Goose dies,

00:56:38 and then Viper walks in and delivers the news

00:56:40 that Goose died and says, "Hey, you gotta get past it."

00:56:43 And then what happens next in the third act?

00:56:45 He goes and he fights some bad guys.

00:56:47 He kills some bad guys.

00:56:49 And then he's good.

00:56:50 He throws Goose's dog tags off the deck

00:56:53 and he gets the girl and he's fine.

00:56:55 That story is repeated over and over and over again

00:56:57 in our culture.

00:56:59 And it leads us to believe that yes, trauma is real,

00:57:03 but the way you conquer trauma is not through therapy.

00:57:06 It's not through that kind of work.

00:57:07 You conquer trauma through singular acts

00:57:10 of redemptive heroism.

00:57:11 And I look back now and I think that's what I was doing.

00:57:14 I felt deeply that I had not done enough

00:57:17 as a member of the service.

00:57:18 And so I was just trying to redeem myself

00:57:22 by just hollowing myself out,

00:57:25 giving myself completely over to my career,

00:57:27 and then thinking ultimately, I'll save the world.

00:57:30 But now I look back and I'm like,

00:57:32 to use another movie reference,

00:57:33 I could have been Bill Pullman's character

00:57:35 in "Independence Day."

00:57:36 I could have gotten elected president

00:57:38 and flown a combat mission

00:57:40 to defeat an alien invading force.

00:57:43 And I think I still would have been like,

00:57:45 I haven't done enough.

00:57:46 And what I really needed was to go to therapy.

00:57:48 - Problem with that, of course,

00:57:49 being Randy Quaid's out of his fucking mind.

00:57:51 But anyway, I digress.

00:57:53 Danny, I know you got some thoughts.

00:57:54 - Well, Randy Quaid had PTSD from being abducted by aliens.

00:57:59 So it actually is a perfect little button on the analogy.

00:58:02 - Jason, hi, Danny Moses here.

00:58:04 Nice to meet you.

00:58:05 But the person that actually met you first in person

00:58:07 was my sister, Lynn Garfinkel.

00:58:08 She met you in Ohio, I guess,

00:58:10 at a campaign event in 2018 for Kathleen Clyde.

00:58:13 And I've been hearing about you ever since.

00:58:15 And about six weeks ago, she says to me,

00:58:18 "You really got to start tracking this guy, Jason Kander.

00:58:20 "He's coming out with this book.

00:58:22 "I mean, what he's done in the community is incredible."

00:58:24 And her and her husband, Michael, are in Boulder,

00:58:27 where Dan's brother is, by the way.

00:58:28 And in Longmont, one of the VCP locations,

00:58:31 they donate time and resources to it, and they swear by it.

00:58:34 So she wanted to say hello.

00:58:36 - Yeah, absolutely.

00:58:36 Tell her I said thanks.

00:58:38 - Jason, I know you're spending your time

00:58:39 on a lot of different things,

00:58:40 but I know one of the things that's near and dear

00:58:41 to your heart is the Veterans Community Project, VCP,

00:58:44 which you credit really with helping you.

00:58:46 Happen to be located in Kansas City.

00:58:48 And now you're president, I guess, of National Expansion.

00:58:50 Can you just explain that organization?

00:58:52 It's really cool.

00:58:53 I looked into it after I read the book.

00:58:54 I'd love to hear more about it.

00:58:56 - Yeah, thanks, Danny.

00:58:57 I appreciate the question.

00:58:58 So Veterans Community Project, we do two major things.

00:59:01 One, we fight the suicide epidemic among veterans

00:59:04 and generally serve veterans by operating walk-in clinics,

00:59:07 what we call outreach centers,

00:59:08 for any veteran to come in and get any service.

00:59:11 And we just basically leverage the goodwill

00:59:13 and deep reservoir of support in the community

00:59:15 to provide that.

00:59:16 So everything from what I got help with,

00:59:19 which was expediting my paperwork at the VA,

00:59:21 to emergency assistance loans

00:59:23 for folks who might be about to be homeless

00:59:25 if they don't get a little help with rent,

00:59:26 to counseling, to everything.

00:59:29 But then what we're much better known for

00:59:30 is the other part of our work,

00:59:31 which is the residential side,

00:59:33 which is to say we build villages of tiny houses

00:59:36 for homeless veterans

00:59:37 and we provide wraparound case management services

00:59:39 to transition homeless veterans

00:59:41 back into being permanently and independently housed.

00:59:44 We do it with an 85% success rate,

00:59:46 which is pretty well unheard of in this space.

00:59:49 And the reason that we're able to do that

00:59:51 is we approach it in a really unique way,

00:59:54 which is to say we sort of restart the military

00:59:57 to civilian transition back at day one.

00:59:59 And our villages, they feel and look

01:00:01 a lot like active duty housing.

01:00:02 So when you come in,

01:00:03 it's like we're putting you back in the world

01:00:05 that you were most recently stable and successful.

01:00:07 And then over the course of your time with us,

01:00:09 we gradually transition you

01:00:11 into being fully prepared for civilian life.

01:00:13 And it's the best civilian job I've ever had.

01:00:15 My job is, as you said, president of national expansion.

01:00:18 And in the last three years,

01:00:19 we've been able to make a lot of progress.

01:00:21 We're now in the Denver area, in Longmont,

01:00:23 in Boulder County, as you mentioned.

01:00:25 We are also building in St. Louis and in Sioux Falls.

01:00:28 We've bought land now in Oklahoma City and are going there.

01:00:30 And then we're wanting to spread elsewhere after that.

01:00:33 All of my royalties from this book

01:00:34 actually go to Veterans Community Project.

01:00:37 - One thing that was really clear in the book

01:00:38 is that your coming across VCP

01:00:40 was really an important part about your recovery

01:00:43 from this PTSD.

01:00:45 And I wanna take a step back though,

01:00:46 and really talk about the therapy

01:00:48 and the moment in which you realized

01:00:50 that you needed to go into therapy.

01:00:52 It's very interesting that you talk about

01:00:54 going straight to the VA and the difficulty

01:00:57 of actually getting the sort of therapy that you needed,

01:01:00 given how far away you were

01:01:02 from your active duty commitment.

01:01:04 And you mentioned that that has changed a bit,

01:01:07 but speak to us a little bit

01:01:08 about the experience with the VA.

01:01:10 And also, I'm sure you're never done

01:01:13 with the sort of therapy,

01:01:14 trying to attack the sort of issues

01:01:15 that were kind of under the surface for a very long time

01:01:18 and really disrupted your life for a bit.

01:01:20 But it seems like the way you come out of this thing,

01:01:22 you're doing really well,

01:01:23 but you're also at a point you were kind of skeptical

01:01:27 of how the short amount of time

01:01:29 that you were actually in therapy,

01:01:30 which might speak to how well of treatment

01:01:33 that you got from the VA.

01:01:35 - Yeah, that's absolutely right.

01:01:36 It was all really colored for me by the fact that,

01:01:38 when you think about it,

01:01:39 the depictions of people who have gone to treatment for PTSD

01:01:43 and then gone on with their lives and done well with it,

01:01:47 you just can't think of them.

01:01:47 Nobody ever shows that on TV or in movies,

01:01:50 but it's super common.

01:01:52 There's people walking all around us all the time

01:01:54 who've had trauma, went to therapy,

01:01:55 and went back to their life, and they manage PTSD.

01:01:58 You don't have any idea about it.

01:01:59 Well, I didn't know that.

01:02:01 And so I knew that I wanted to go to the VA

01:02:03 'cause I knew that I wanted to sit across from somebody

01:02:06 who talked to people like me all the time.

01:02:09 And I realized that because the way that I really decided

01:02:12 that I definitely needed help was,

01:02:14 things got really bad and really dark,

01:02:16 and I'd become somewhat suicidal.

01:02:19 I was having suicidal thoughts.

01:02:20 This is a good moment to pause and say,

01:02:21 for people listening, the book has also got a lot of jokes.

01:02:24 There's a lot of levity.

01:02:25 You might not be able to tell

01:02:26 from the way I'm talking about it now,

01:02:27 but I wanted to make sure it's very readable.

01:02:30 So it's fun to read, believe me.

01:02:32 - Can I pause for a second there?

01:02:34 I mean, again, we started out this conversation

01:02:36 by saying it's really two stories that collide at one point.

01:02:40 I mean, this story, and it's not done being written, Jason.

01:02:44 You're a young man here.

01:02:45 I mean, your political ascension,

01:02:47 your academic achievements, your serving over there,

01:02:51 and everything that you've done since then with the VCP,

01:02:54 and some of the political causes

01:02:56 that are near and dear to your heart,

01:02:58 like voter suppression, some progressive causes.

01:03:01 You are a great voice for so many of these things.

01:03:03 So to me, I think this is part one,

01:03:06 and I do think it's interesting

01:03:07 that the book is called "Invisible Storm,"

01:03:09 a soldier's memoir of politics and PTSD.

01:03:13 It's not just about that.

01:03:15 - Right, yeah, no, I appreciate that.

01:03:16 And that's, for me, going to the VA like that,

01:03:19 and then recounting it in this book,

01:03:21 gave me the opportunity to make therapy accessible

01:03:24 for people so they can see sort of how I got

01:03:26 to this next act in my life, this post-traumatic growth stage

01:03:29 because it makes it more accessible to people.

01:03:31 And so as I went into the VA, you're right,

01:03:35 like I got to a point where we were maybe four months in,

01:03:38 and I was feeling much better,

01:03:39 and I'd just been going to weekly therapy appointments.

01:03:41 I'd been doing the homework I was given in between,

01:03:44 and because I had never really seen any depiction

01:03:46 of somebody in post-traumatic growth,

01:03:48 I didn't know that was a real thing.

01:03:49 And I thought, well, I guess maybe, did I never have PTSD?

01:03:53 How am I better so quickly?

01:03:55 And my therapist was like, "No, no, no,

01:03:57 "this is how it works.

01:03:58 "This is what is supposed to happen."

01:04:00 And he showed me all these studies to show like,

01:04:02 "Yeah, yeah, this is the amount of time it takes."

01:04:04 And yeah, it is an ongoing part of my life.

01:04:07 I don't go to weekly therapy anymore,

01:04:09 but when things happen in my life,

01:04:11 I do sometimes go in just like anything else.

01:04:13 Like I go to my regular doctor

01:04:15 for a blood test every six months.

01:04:16 And more recently in my life,

01:04:18 I've been really involved in Afghan evacuation efforts

01:04:21 ever since last August.

01:04:22 And it was about six weeks ago that my wife was like,

01:04:25 "Hey, I think maybe it's time

01:04:27 "to deal with some of that stuff."

01:04:28 And so I went back to Nick, my therapist at the VA,

01:04:31 and I did, I think, four appointments,

01:04:33 four weekly appointments, and it was very helpful.

01:04:35 But the difference now is I understand trauma's not wine.

01:04:39 It doesn't age well.

01:04:40 Don't let it age.

01:04:41 Deal with it when it happens,

01:04:42 which is not what I did 14 years ago.

01:04:45 And this book is me saying, "Hey, read this,

01:04:48 "so you'll know not to do that."

01:04:49 This is the book I wish I'd been able to read then.

01:04:52 - I find fascinating about

01:04:53 what the nation is going through now.

01:04:55 I've been watching these January 6th committees.

01:04:57 This is not political, by the way.

01:04:59 I've been watching 'em because I think

01:05:00 it's incumbent upon all of us to sort of understand

01:05:03 what happened not only on that day,

01:05:05 but the events leading up to it,

01:05:06 the events in the aftermath.

01:05:08 And I watch somebody like Liz Cheney,

01:05:10 who to me has been just very methodical.

01:05:12 But then I see somebody like Adam Kinzinger,

01:05:15 and I say to myself, "You and him,

01:05:17 "you're the same type of person, politics notwithstanding."

01:05:21 Probably have different views

01:05:22 on different things politically, that's fine.

01:05:24 But there's a steadiness to both of you

01:05:26 that I think this country needs.

01:05:28 Have you been watching this?

01:05:29 Do you find that to be at all interesting?

01:05:31 'Cause I think we're all going through

01:05:33 a very similar thing right now.

01:05:35 - I've been watching it a bit.

01:05:35 I've been watching Adam Kinzinger for a while.

01:05:37 And I've never met him.

01:05:38 I would like to sometime.

01:05:40 Look, Adam Kinzinger is a lieutenant colonel

01:05:42 in the Air Force.

01:05:43 And when I look at Adam Kinzinger,

01:05:45 I just see a lot of people I know.

01:05:47 He's a military officer.

01:05:48 He's approaching this not like a politician.

01:05:52 He's approaching it like a military officer,

01:05:53 which by the way, is how a lot of politicians

01:05:56 used to approach being in Congress and that sort of thing.

01:05:59 And so, yeah, I'm sure there's lots of stuff

01:06:01 he and I disagree on.

01:06:02 But the commonality is that,

01:06:05 well, I would just say that I do think

01:06:08 that there is something to the idea

01:06:10 that when people are in important positions

01:06:13 and getting that important position

01:06:15 is not the hardest thing they've ever done in their life,

01:06:18 I think there's something to that.

01:06:19 Because what it means is that losing that job

01:06:23 would by the inverse not be the worst thing

01:06:25 that ever happened to them.

01:06:26 And therefore, they're willing to do the job.

01:06:28 And by the same token, I think that there's a lot of value

01:06:31 in having people in office who have dealt with their stuff.

01:06:34 Because we've all had stuff.

01:06:36 And I think there's just a lot of folks

01:06:39 in position of power who it'd be good

01:06:41 if they dealt with their stuff.

01:06:42 - Let's talk about that for a second.

01:06:43 Because in the book, you mentioned that historically,

01:06:46 mental health issues for political candidates

01:06:49 or politicians in general have been a death sentence.

01:06:51 And look at the way that you have just taken

01:06:54 on this mental health issue,

01:06:56 which affects millions and millions of people here,

01:06:58 whether they served in the military or not.

01:07:01 How do you think about changing thoughts

01:07:03 around that sort of thing?

01:07:05 Or is Jason Kanter gonna be a candidate

01:07:07 for something else again?

01:07:08 I know that, again, you started out state legislator,

01:07:11 you ran for Senate, you were thinking about

01:07:12 running for president, you could have easily won

01:07:15 the KC mayoral race, that sort of thing.

01:07:17 It seems like there's a lot more for you to do.

01:07:19 I know you're doing a lot of great stuff with nonprofits

01:07:21 and helping a lot of vets in a whole host of different ways.

01:07:24 But to Guy's point, when you look at this select committee

01:07:28 that is hopefully prosecuting a very, very worthy cause,

01:07:31 we need more people like you who have,

01:07:35 they know what it's like to lose something more

01:07:37 than just a seat every two years in Congress.

01:07:39 - When I made my announcement,

01:07:41 I really thought that that was it on my political career.

01:07:44 When I announced like, hey, I have PTSD

01:07:46 and suicidal thoughts, I'm gonna deal with it here.

01:07:48 I thought that what I was doing was taking a leap of faith,

01:07:53 a chance that maybe I could go to therapy and get better.

01:07:55 'Cause I had no idea if I could.

01:07:57 I just couldn't go anymore.

01:07:59 So I couldn't keep going.

01:08:00 And I was like, I gotta go do this.

01:08:02 But yeah, I thought that I was taking the one thing

01:08:05 in my life that was going well and trading that in

01:08:08 for the chance of being able to get better.

01:08:11 What I had no idea of at the time

01:08:13 was how people were gonna respond to it.

01:08:15 And it's either this or the work I do

01:08:18 with Veterans Community Project or the Afghans

01:08:20 that I've been able to play a part in evacuating

01:08:22 over the last few years that are the most important things

01:08:25 in terms of public impact outside of being a father

01:08:27 and a husband that I've ever done in my life.

01:08:30 They put everything I did in public office

01:08:32 like way in the rear view in terms of my impact

01:08:34 and my importance.

01:08:35 And so that means a couple of things to me.

01:08:37 One, yeah, look, I think if at some point

01:08:40 and it's very possible that if at some point

01:08:42 I again have the desire to seek an office

01:08:44 like mayor or president or something

01:08:46 that I think I could do that.

01:08:48 I know I could do the job, but it also means for me

01:08:52 that I have learned that if what I care about

01:08:55 and it is very much what I care about now,

01:08:57 if what I care about is just making a difference,

01:08:59 boy, I've made a much bigger difference

01:09:00 without having to worry about hanging on

01:09:02 to a political office than I did before.

01:09:05 And so in the future, maybe I'll run for something again,

01:09:08 but I guess I'm just really comfortable now being like,

01:09:10 I don't know, maybe one day,

01:09:12 but I'm not doing anything to try and make it happen.

01:09:15 - Jason, so I kind of searched through your stuff

01:09:16 and I try to find comments that you might make

01:09:18 about Wall Street 'cause obviously

01:09:19 this is an investment style podcast

01:09:22 and we like to talk about all different subject matter.

01:09:24 I'm just curious, not your thoughts on Wall Street

01:09:26 in general, but make sure that you're aware

01:09:29 the amount that Wall Street does.

01:09:30 And really it was happening before 9/11,

01:09:33 but it really accelerated after.

01:09:34 I mean, Citi has programs where they hire veterans,

01:09:37 Drexel Hamilton's a firm that's dedicated,

01:09:39 100% owned by veterans, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan,

01:09:42 everybody wants to be involved.

01:09:43 And I'm just curious your thoughts on that in general,

01:09:45 are you active at all?

01:09:46 And I don't ask you to take a stance

01:09:48 of whether you think Wall Street's good or bad,

01:09:49 but I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that.

01:09:51 - No, it's fine.

01:09:52 I actually, particularly with Veterans Community Project,

01:09:54 I raised money for it as a nonprofit.

01:09:56 So I've spent a lot of time with folks

01:09:58 in the finance industry in particular in New York,

01:10:01 talking about this stuff.

01:10:02 And one of the things that I've noticed

01:10:04 is that this is a world that I hope that in this regard,

01:10:08 the rest of the private sector in the United States

01:10:10 can catch up to,

01:10:11 and that it is a world that understands

01:10:13 that military veterans have a lot they bring to the table

01:10:16 beyond like, hey, can we make them a police officer

01:10:19 or a security guard?

01:10:20 Which I think too much of our society thinks like,

01:10:22 well, that's the transferable skill

01:10:24 and it doesn't go beyond that.

01:10:25 And I have met a lot of people on Wall Street

01:10:27 who came out of the military,

01:10:29 that's where they developed their leadership skills,

01:10:31 that's where they developed their decision-making skills.

01:10:33 And so I would absolutely credit the industry

01:10:35 for identifying that,

01:10:36 and for recognizing that giving veterans a job

01:10:39 is not a act of charity,

01:10:41 it is a really solid business decision.

01:10:44 - I would actually say that

01:10:45 what's going on on Wall Street right now,

01:10:47 they may need to move into some of these mini homes

01:10:49 soon enough, so maybe you can do a project for Wall Street.

01:10:51 Just one other thing on that,

01:10:52 I was fortunate enough to be involved

01:10:54 in Navy Seal Foundation, Army Rangers, Lead the Way Fund,

01:10:58 Jimmy Regan, who went to Duke,

01:11:00 I don't know if you know his story,

01:11:01 he was a lacrosse player about your age,

01:11:03 graduated in 2004, could have worked on Wall Street,

01:11:06 could have done anything,

01:11:07 and he wanted to basically fight for the country

01:11:09 and became an Army Ranger,

01:11:10 and I was very involved in that.

01:11:12 When I was involved with that charity,

01:11:14 I bought one of these weekends

01:11:15 where you go down, fly into Memphis,

01:11:17 and you go to this secret location in Arkansas,

01:11:19 and three of my buddies and I went there for two days,

01:11:22 put the packs on, did rescues, did all that stuff,

01:11:24 and what was really interesting, or horrifying,

01:11:27 I should say, is that the Green Berets and the people,

01:11:29 we would take them out at night on Beale Street,

01:11:31 we'd be like, "Hey guys, come out with us."

01:11:33 The amount of PTSD that they had from being in the fight,

01:11:36 they showed us videos, they had cameras on their helmets,

01:11:39 they showed us some stuff,

01:11:40 and we were sitting in restaurants,

01:11:42 and they won't sit with their back to the window,

01:11:43 and they're walking down the street,

01:11:45 and when I left there with my friends,

01:11:46 I said, "My God, they fought a war,

01:11:49 "and now they're back, and they're in their own country,

01:11:51 "and I could see it."

01:11:52 And so when I read your book,

01:11:54 it brought back out all that raw emotion,

01:11:56 and so seeing that, I would tell everybody out there

01:11:59 to reach out to veterans, and just communicate,

01:12:01 because I felt helpless, I mean, what they went through,

01:12:04 and so I would never see something,

01:12:05 but just wanted to get your thoughts on that in general,

01:12:07 and those organizations, and they do so much.

01:12:10 - Yeah, no, there's a lot of great organizations

01:12:12 that work with veterans,

01:12:13 and I think when you were telling that story,

01:12:14 what it had me thinking about is just the way

01:12:17 that in our country right now,

01:12:19 the military community and the civilian community

01:12:22 are so disparate, and the thing is,

01:12:25 it really contributes to this sense of isolation

01:12:27 among veterans, because when you think back to our history,

01:12:31 well, heck, this is the longest consecutive period

01:12:33 in American history without some form of mandatory service,

01:12:36 and what that means is folks come home after serving,

01:12:40 and all of a sudden, there's very few people around them

01:12:43 who really had a common experience with them.

01:12:45 It's why at Veterans Community Project,

01:12:47 we have a village of people who have a shared experience,

01:12:50 that's what it all starts with, right?

01:12:52 And so in other cultures, there's a real effort made

01:12:56 to reorient and to bring the warrior back into the society,

01:13:01 but the way they do it is they close that distance

01:13:04 by having a lot more people experience what you experienced,

01:13:07 to watch the videos, to get a better sense of what it is

01:13:10 to be in that fight, and what that does

01:13:13 is it gives you a greater understanding of them,

01:13:15 but it also closes the distance just a little bit

01:13:17 between you and them, and then what happens is

01:13:20 is that you, as a member of a community,

01:13:23 like myself, as a member of a community,

01:13:25 I don't feel quite as separate from other people

01:13:27 if I feel like they've at least shown genuine interest

01:13:30 and learned about what we did.

01:13:32 The example I use in the book is that Native American tribes

01:13:35 often had ceremonies where the warriors would come back

01:13:38 and the whole tribe would get together,

01:13:40 and everybody would tell in vivid detail

01:13:42 the stories from what they saw,

01:13:45 and what that allowed is for the entire community

01:13:48 to have somewhat experienced it together,

01:13:51 and for me, it's like a lot of those times

01:13:53 when I was campaigning, and I was talking about my service

01:13:56 'cause it's what I had done professionally,

01:13:59 but I knew which stories I could tell,

01:14:01 and which stories I could sanitize and tell,

01:14:03 which stories I could tell and get a laugh,

01:14:05 and which stories I learned quickly,

01:14:07 which stories you don't tell,

01:14:08 because people aren't ready for it,

01:14:10 and they recoil, and they see you differently,

01:14:13 and that increases the sense of isolation among veterans.

01:14:16 - Jason, it takes courage to serve.

01:14:19 We thank you on behalf of Danny, Dan, and myself.

01:14:22 Thank you for your service, but you know what?

01:14:24 It also takes courage to be vulnerable,

01:14:27 and to talk about these things, and to seek help,

01:14:30 and I think more people should understand that,

01:14:32 not look at it as a weakness, but actually a strength,

01:14:35 and I will say this.

01:14:36 I think our country needs more Jason Kanders

01:14:39 on both sides of the aisle,

01:14:41 and I encourage all of our listeners

01:14:42 to go out and get your book, "Invisible Storm,

01:14:45 "A Soldier's Memoir of Politics and PTSD."

01:14:49 Thank you for joining us, Jason.

01:14:51 - Thank you, I really appreciate it.

01:14:53 - Thanks once again to CME Group

01:14:55 for sponsoring this episode of "On the Tape."

01:14:58 If you liked what you heard,

01:14:59 make sure you hit follow and leave us a review.

01:15:02 It helps people find our show,

01:15:04 and we love hearing from you,

01:15:05 and we also wanna hear from you via email

01:15:08 at onthetape@riskreversal.com any time of the day.

01:15:13 Follow and connect with us on Twitter @OnTheTapePod,

01:15:16 and we'll see you next time.

01:15:18 "On the Tape" is a Risk Reversal Media production.

01:15:21 This podcast is for informational purposes only.

01:15:24 All opinions expressed by me, Dan Nathan,

01:15:26 Guy Adami, Danny Moses, and any other participants

01:15:29 are solely our opinions and should not be relied upon

01:15:32 for specific investment decisions.

01:15:34 (upbeat music)

01:15:36 [BLANK_AUDIO]

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