Amanpour & Co. - December 12, 2023
Harvard University’s highest governing body announced that Claudine Gay will remain as president. This follows an uproar about the university’s handling of antisemitism on campus, and controversial testimony on the matter in front of Congress. Rabbi David Wolpe was on Harvard’s Antisemitism Advisory Group but resigned over what he calls the university’s failure to take its advice.
Transcript
00:03>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME
00:05TO "AMANPOUR & CO."
00:07HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:09UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR
00:09ZELENSKYY COMES TO CONGRESS.
00:11COULD THE WAR BE WON OR LOST
00:135,000 MILES FROM THE HOME FRONT?
00:15I ASK BEN HODGES, FORMER U.S.
00:17ARMY COMMANDER IN EUROPE.
00:19>>> ALSO, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION
00:21LEADER ALEXEI NAVALNY IS STILL
00:23MISSING.
00:24HIS CLOSE AIDE MARIA PEPCZI
00:29SHARES HER WORRIES.
00:30>>> PLUS, THE PERFORMANCE ARTIST
00:31WHO BRINGS A WHOLE NEW MEANING
00:33TO BODY OF WORK.
00:34>>> PLUS, THE COLLISION OF FREE
00:37SPEECH AND ANTISEMITISM AT SOME
00:39AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES.
00:40HARVARD BACKS ITS PRESIDENT
00:45WHILE HARRI SRINIVAS SPEAK OVER
00:51THE ISSUE THERE.
00:56>>> "AMANPOUR & CO." IS MADE
01:01POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY
01:03ENDOWMENT.
01:03JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
01:07CANDACE KING WEIR.
01:08THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA
01:10AND MICKEY STRAUS.
01:14MARK J. BLECHNER.
01:15SETON JAY MELVIN.
01:17KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED
01:23TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES
01:23IN OUR FAMILIES.
01:28BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
01:30ADDITIONAL HELP PROVIDED BY
01:31THESE FUNDERS AND FROM VIEWERS
01:33LIKE YOU.
01:34THANK YOU.
01:36>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
01:36EVERYONE.
01:37I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN
01:37LONDON.
01:39NEARLY TWO YEARS AGO, PRESIDENT
01:41JOE BIDEN AND HIS NATO ALLIES
01:43ROSE UP TO DEFEND UKRAINE AND
01:45HELP STAVE OFF RUSSIA'S ILLEGAL
01:48INVASION.
01:48BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, TONS OF
01:50ARMAMENTS AND AMMUNITION WAS
01:51SENT, AND THE BATTLE FOR
01:52DEMOCRACY WAS WELL AND TRULY
01:55JOINED.
01:55BIDEN AND HIS ALLIES PROMISED
01:57THAT THEY WOULD SUPPORT UKRAINE
01:58FOR, QUOTE, AS LONG AS IT TAKES,
02:01UNTIL NOW THAT IS, WHEN THE U.S.
02:03CONGRESS DECIDED TO INSERT
02:05POLITICS OVER THE U.S. BORDER
02:07INTO THIS EXISTENTIAL FIGHT
02:08AGAINST PUTIN'S OUAUTOCRATIC
02:13RUSSIA, HOLDING UP ABOUT $60
02:16MILLION IN NEW AID AS THE WHITE
02:17HOUSE WARNS THAT CURRENT FUNDING
02:19COULD RUN OUT IN JUST A FEW
02:22WEEKS.
02:22HERE IS HOUSE SPEAKER REPUBLICAN
02:25MIKE JOHNSON.
02:25>> THIS IS AN IMPORTANT BATTLE
02:26FOR ALL THE REASONS WE KNOW.
02:28BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS A
02:30RADICAL PROPOSITION TO SAY THAT
02:31IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A
02:33NATIONAL SECURITY SUPPLEMENTAL
02:39PASSAGE, IT OUGHT BEGIN WITH OUR
02:40OWN NATIONAL NATIONAL SECURITY
02:42FIRST.
02:42>> BUT BIDEN HAS INVITED
02:44VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY TO
02:44WASHINGTON TO MAKE HIS CASE AT A
02:45MAKE OR BREAK MOMENT.
02:47HE TOLD CAPITOL HILL IF UKRAINE
02:48LOSES, THAT MEANS PUTIN WINS.
02:52>> ALL FREE NATIONS NEED TO BE
02:54CONFIDENT IN THEMSELVES, IN
02:55THEIR STRENGTHS, IN THEIR
02:58LITERACY SO THAT DICTATORSHIPS
03:01DOUBT THEMSELVES AND THEY HAVE
03:03THE POWER TO UNDERMINE FREEDOM.
03:06WHEN THE FREE WORLD HESITATES,
03:09THAT'S WHEN DICTATORSHIPS
03:12CELEBRATE, AND THEIR MOST
03:15DANGEROUS AMBITIONS.
03:16>> IN MOSCOW, PUTIN IS WATCHING
03:21CLOSELY, WHILE HEAVILY
03:22BOMBARDING THE PEOPLE OF
03:23UKRAINE.
03:24RETIRED GENERAL BEN HODGES LED
03:26U.S. FORCES IN EUROPE, AND HE
03:27HAS BEEN A STRONG SUPPORTER OF
03:29UKRAINE AND OF WHAT'S AT STAKE
03:30ON THE BATTLEFIELD AND OFF.
03:31AND HE JOINS ME NOW FROM
03:35FRANKFURT, GERMANY.
03:35GENERAL HODGES, WELCOME BACK TO
03:37THE PROGRAM.
03:37WE'VE OFTEN SPOKEN ABOUT WHAT
03:39NEEDS TO HAPPEN, AND YOU'VE
03:41OFTEN HAD AN OPTIMISTIC VIEW OF
03:44WHAT UKRAINE CAN MANAGE WITH
03:47FULL U.S. SUPPORT.
03:48ARE YOU CONCERNED AT THE MOMENT
03:50THAT THIS SUPPORT IS IN
03:51QUESTION?
03:54>> YES, I AM, CHRISTIANE.
03:56THIS WAR IS AT A TIPPING POINT.
03:59WE, THE WEST -- I'M VERY PROUD
04:01OF WHAT THE ADMINISTRATION AND
04:02THE WEST HAVE DONE AND WHAT WE
04:03HAVE PROVIDED UKRAINE, BUT WE
04:06HAVE FAILED THE CRITICAL TEST OF
04:08DECIDING WHAT IS THE STRATEGIC
04:09OUTCOME THAT WE WANT.
04:11WE HAVE NOT SAID WE WANT UKRAINE
04:12TO WIN.
04:13AND SO BECAUSE OF THAT, WE'VE
04:15BEEN HESITANT AND INCREMENTAL IN
04:17DECISION MAKING AND IN APPROVING
04:19WHAT WOULD BE SENT TO UKRAINE.
04:21AND SO WE STOP SHORT OF
04:23PROVIDING THEM WITH WHAT THEY
04:24NEEDED TO ACTUALLY WIN.
04:25THE KREMLIN HAS ADOPTED A LONG
04:30WAR STRATEGY, BECAUSE THEY CAN
04:31SEE THEY HAVE NO OTHER HOPE
04:33EXCEPT TO WAIT FOR US TO GIVE
04:34UP.
04:35THAT'S WHY THEY FEED THOUSANDS
04:36OF SOLDIERS INTO THE MEAT
04:38GRINDER EVERY DAY TO CONVEY THE
04:39IMPRESSION THAT THEY HAVE
04:40ENDLESS RESOURCES, BECAUSE THEY
04:42CAN SEE THAT WE ARE BEGINNING TO
04:43GET TIRED OR LOSE INTEREST.
04:46AND EVERY TIME THE CONGRESS
04:47STUMBLES LIKE THEY ARE RIGHT NOW
04:49OR HESITATES, THAT'S OXYGEN FOR
04:52THE KREMLIN'S DESIRE FOR THIS
04:55LONG WAR STRATEGY.
04:56>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU,
04:58BECAUSE THE CONGRESSIONAL VOTE
04:59IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT, AND
05:00ZELENSKYY IS THERE TRYING TO
05:01MAKE HIS CASE.
05:02YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN THESE KINDS
05:04OF THINGS BEFORE, OR MAYBE NOT.
05:06HAS THIS KIND OF FUNDING FOR KEY
05:10AMERICAN INTERNATIONAL NATIONAL
05:11SECURITY ISSUE BEEN HELD UP BY A
05:15RECALCITRANT CONGRESS?
05:16AND IN YOUR MIND, WHAT SHOULD
05:17THE ADMINISTRATION DO?
05:18SHOULD IT AGREE TO A -- TO
05:21MORE -- WHATEVER IT TAKES,
05:23COMPROMISE ON THE IMMIGRATION
05:24AND BORDER SECURITY?
05:27>> WELL, THIS IS NOT THE FIRST
05:29TIME, OF COURSE, THAT FUNDING
05:30HAS BEEN HELD UP FOR DIFFERENT
05:31REASONS.
05:32THAT'S NOT NEW.
05:34I THINK WHAT'S NEW IS FOR THE
05:36FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE THAT THE
05:41REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS TURNED ITS
05:44BACK ON UKRAINE AND IS ENABLING
05:47RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.
05:49THIS IS THE PARTY OF REAGAN.
05:50I NEVER WOULD HAVE IMAGINED
05:51THAT.
05:51THIS IS A SEA CHANGE IN AMERICAN
05:54FOREIGN POLICY.
05:55NOW, THE BURDEN IS ALSO, THOUGH,
05:57ON THE ADMINISTRATION.
05:58THE PRESIDENT AND HIS TEAM HAVE
06:00GOT TO EXPLAIN TO THE AMERICAN
06:02PEOPLE WHY THIS IS IN OUR
06:05INTERESTS.
06:05SPEAKER JOHNSON IS NOT CORRECT
06:08WHEN HE SAYS THEY NEED TO FOCUS
06:10ON AMERICAN SECURITY.
06:10THIS IS ABOUT AMERICAN SECURITY.
06:11THIS AFFECTS OUR ECONOMY.
06:13IT AFFECTS THE POSSIBILITY OF US
06:15ENDING UP IN A NATO CONFLICT.
06:17AND OF COURSE, CHINA IS
06:19WATCHING.
06:19IF THE CHINESE SEE THAT WE LACK
06:22WILL AND INDUSTRIAL CAPACITY,
06:23THEN I DON'T THINK THEY'LL BE
06:24TOO IMPRESSED WITH ANYTHING WE
06:25SAY ABOUT THE INDO-PACIFIC
06:27REGION.
06:27>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU TO LAY IT
06:29ON THE LINE FOR AMERICANS, AND
06:32MAYBE EVEN PEOPLE IN CONGRESS.
06:34IF THE UKRAINIANS WERE NOT THE
06:37FOOT SOLDIERS IN THEIR OWN WAR
06:38AGAINST THIS RUSSIAN INVASION,
06:42IF, YOU KNOW, RUSSIA HAD INVADED
06:44A NATO COUNTRY, WOULD WE NOT SEE
06:47AMERICAN BOOTS ON THE GROUND OR
06:49SUCH THING?
06:49IN OTHER WORDS, ISN'T UKRAINE
06:51DOING AMERICA AND THE WEST'S
06:53WORK FOR IT IN THIS CASE?
06:56>> ACTUALLY, UKRAINE IS DOING
06:58EXACTLY WHAT NATO WAS CREATED TO
07:00DO, WAS TO STOP RUSSIA FROM
07:03INVADING OR DEVOURING EUROPE.
07:05NOT ONE AMERICAN SOLDIER HAS
07:07BEEN LOST IN THIS CONFLICT SO
07:09FAR AND IN RELATIVE TERMS,A VERY
07:11SMALL PERCENTAGE OF OUR DEFENSE
07:13BUDGET, UKRAINE HAS TAKEN ABOUT
07:15300,000 RUSSIAN SOLDIERS OFF THE
07:22BATTLEFIELD, PLUS SANCTIONS
07:24WE'RE DOING HAS WRECKED RUSSIA'S
07:27DEFENSE INDUSTRY.
07:27THEY'RE HAVING TO IMPORT POOR
07:29QUALITY AMMUNITION FROM NORTH
07:30KOREA AND DRONES FROM IRAN.
07:31SO UKRAINE IS DOING SOMETHING
07:32THAT HELPS US.
07:33IT PROTECTS ALL OF EUROPE.
07:35AND THEY'RE NOT ASKING FOR
07:37AMERICAN TROOPS.
07:37THEY'RE JUST ASKING FOR THE
07:38TOOLS TO ACTUALLY WIN.
07:40>> CAN I ASK YOU WHETHER IT
07:42SOUNDS PLAUSIBLE TO YOU, THE
07:43U.S. HAS RELEASED SOME FIGURES
07:46THAT AROUND 87% OF RUSSIA'S
07:49ACTIVE DUTY GROUND FORCES ARE NO
07:51LONGER THERE.
07:52THE ONES THAT EXISTED BEFORE
07:55FEBRUARY 2022, AND NOW.
07:57DOES THAT RING REASONABLE TO
08:00YOU?
08:01>> ABSOLUTELY.
08:01I MEAN, THE RUSSIANS HAVE HAD TO
08:07FROM THE ORIGINAL 140, 150,000
08:09THAT THEY STARTED WITH BACK IN
08:11FEBRUARY OF LAST YEAR FOR
08:13LARGE-SCALE INVASION, SINCE THEN
08:14THEY HAVE GONE THROUGH A COUPLE
08:16OF PARTIAL MOBILIZATIONS, THEY
08:18HAVE EMPTIED THEIR JAILS, THEY
08:19HAVE PULLED ALL OF THEIR TROOPS
08:20AWAY FROM THE BORDER WITH
08:22FINLAND, ESTONIA AND LATVIA, AS
08:24WELL AS SOME OF THE TROOPS THEY
08:25HAVE STATIONED IN GEORGIA IN
08:28ORDER TO FEED THE MACHINE THAT
08:31THEY HAVE IN UKRAINE.
08:34THEY HAVE LOST AN ENORMOUS
08:35AMOUNT OF CASUALTIES ON TOP OF
08:39EQUIPMENT, SHIPS, AIRCRAFT.
08:43THEY HAVE BEEN SIGNIFICANTLY,
08:45YES.
08:45>> ON THE OTHER HAND, UKRAINE WE
08:47KNOW, BECAUSE WE'RE HEARING IT,
08:48WE HEAR THEIR HEAD OF THE
08:50MILITARY TALK ABOUT A STALEMATE.
08:51WE KNOW THE RUSSIANS ARE DUG IN
08:52HEAVILY.
08:53WE KNOW THAT JUST THIS ATTRITION
08:54IS COSTING HUGE AMOUNTS OF LIVES
08:57ON THE UKRAINIAN SIDE, WHICH
08:58THEY CANNOT AFFORD.
09:00AND TODAY WE'RE HEARING AN MP
09:03TALKING TO CNN EARLIER,
09:05BASICALLY SAYING THE FOLLOWING.
09:06KYIV CAN BE TURNED INTO THE
09:09SECOND MARIUPOL AND TOTALLY
09:11ERASED, BECAUSE WE SEE HUNDREDS
09:13OF DRONES FLYING TO KYIV EVERY
09:14DAY.
09:14BUT THEY'RE NOT USING THE
09:15MISSILES A LOT YET.
09:17IN OTHER WORDS, RUSSIA IS NOT
09:18YET USING ITS MISSILES.
09:19SO WE'RE WAITING FOR A MASSIVE
09:21ATTACK OF HUNDREDS OF DRONES,
09:22AND THEN HUNDREDS OF MISSILES.
09:24AND IF THERE IS NOTHING TO PUT
09:26THEM DOWN WITH, THAT'S IT.
09:27WE'RE DONE.
09:28HOW GRAVE DO YOU THINK THE
09:29SITUATION FOR UKRAINE IS RIGHT
09:32NOW?
09:33EVEN ZELENSKYY IS SAYING, YOU
09:34KNOW, IF WE LOSE, PUTIN WINS.
09:36WE MIGHT HAVE TO RESORT TO
09:37GUERRILLA WARFARE.
09:40>> WELL, THIS IS A WAR FOR THE
09:42SURVIVAL OF UKRAINE.
09:43THEY ARE FIGHTING LITERALLY FOR
09:46THEIR NATIONAL SURVIVAL.
09:47AND RUSSIA CLEARLY HAS NO
09:50CONCERNS ABOUT USING DRONES,
09:52MISSILES, ROCKETS, AND ARTILLERY
09:54AGAINST CIVILIAN TARGETS.
09:55SO WHAT THE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT
09:57IS TALKING ABOUT OF COURSE IS
09:59THIS RELENTLESS AIR WAR, IF YOU
10:02WILL, GOING AGAINST CIVILIAN
10:04INFRASTRUCTURE AS THEY DID LAST
10:06WINTER.
10:06SO THAT'S GOING TO CONTINUE.
10:08AND SO PROVIDING ADEQUATE AIR
10:10AND MISSILE DEFENSE FOR UKRAINE
10:11IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF HELPING
10:13THEM GET THROUGH THIS.
10:14BUT THAT'S NOT GOING TO DECIDE
10:15THE OUTCOME.
10:16WHAT'S GOING DECIDE THE OUTCOME
10:19OF THIS WAR IS THE ABILITY OF
10:20UKRAINE TO CONTINUE ACTUALLY
10:24FIGHTING.
10:24WHAT THEY WILL BE DOING I THINK
10:25OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, THEY
10:27WILL BE RECONSTITUTING UNITS
10:29THAT HAVE BEEN WARN OUT.
10:30THEY'LL BE WORKING TO IMPROVE
10:31THE RESILIENCE AND POWER OF
10:36THEIR POWER GENERATION SYSTEMS
10:37THERE IN THEIR CITIES.
10:38I THINK THAT THEY WILL BE
10:39WORKING ON IMPROVING THE
10:43EFFICIENCY OF THEIR RECRUITING
10:46SYSTEM.
10:46THEY STILL HAVE A LOT OF
10:47MANPOWER AVAILABLE IN UKRAINE.
10:48SO I THINK THERE ARE THINGS THAT
10:49THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO, AND
10:51ALSO I THINK WE'LL SEE A LOT
10:52MORE SABOTAGE HAPPENING IN
10:53RUSSIAN OCCUPIED PARTS OF
10:56UKRAINE EVEN INSIDE RUSSIA.
11:01AND MORE PRESSURE ON THE RUSSIAN
11:02FORCES IN CRIMEA.
11:03THE UKRAINIANS ARE NOT GOING TO
11:05SIT AROUND AND HOPE THAT
11:06SOMETHING GOOD HAPPENS.
11:06THEY'RE GOING TO KEEP MOVING
11:08WITH OR WITHOUT US.
11:08>> CAN I JUST SWITCH OVER TO THE
11:10WAR RAGING IN THE MIDDLE EAST
11:11RIGHT NOW.
11:13BROWN UNIVERSITY'S COST OF WAR
11:14PROJECT REMINDS US THAT OVER 432
11:18CIVILIANS WERE KILLED AS A
11:19RESULT OF DIRECT FIGHTING IN
11:21AMERICA'S POST-9/11 WARS.
11:23THAT'S AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ.
11:25THE GAZA DEATH TOLL STANDS NOW
11:27AT NEARLY 18,000 ACCORDING TO
11:29THE PALESTINIAN HEALTH
11:30AUTHORITIES.
11:31SO I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION.
11:33HOW CAN THE ISRAELI ARMY, HOW
11:36SHOULD IT, THE MILITARY, AVOID
11:38CIVILIAN CASUALTIES?
11:40AND GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED TO THE
11:41UNITED STATES, PARTLY BECAUSE OF
11:42ALL THOSE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES
11:44AND THE BACKLASH, WHAT WILL
11:46HAPPEN, DO YOU THINK, TO ISRAEL
11:48IF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES KEEP
11:50MOUNTING LIKE THIS?
11:53>> CHRISTIANE, IF YOU ALLOW ME,
11:55HAMAS' ATTACK ON ISRAEL, BY THE
11:58WAY, IS NOT A COINCIDENCE.
12:00HAMAS DID IN ONE DAY WHAT PUTIN
12:01COULD NOT DO IN TWO DAYS, WHICH
12:03IS PRETTY MUCH MAKE THE WORLD
12:05FORGET ABOUT -- PUTIN COULD NOT
12:06DO IT IN TWO YEARS, MAKE THE
12:07WORLD FORGET ABOUT UKRAINE.
12:10I THINK THAT IRAN, RUSSIA'S MOST
12:11IMPORTANT AND CLOSEST ALLY
12:14SUPPORTING HAMAS DID THIS TO
12:16SUPPORT RUSSIA.
12:17RUSSIA'S BENEFITTING FROM THIS
12:19ATTACK IN ISRAEL MORE THAN
12:20ANYBODY.
12:21NOW TO YOUR POINT, THE -- I HAVE
12:24A PROBLEM WITH THE MISSION
12:25STATEMENT THAT COMES FROM PRIME
12:26MINISTER NETANYAHU.
12:28HE TOLD HIS ISRAELI DEFENSE
12:31FORCE DESTROY HAMAS THAT WAS IT.
12:32DESTROY HAMAS.
12:34THERE IS NO POLITICAL DIMENSION
12:37TO THE STRATEGIC END STATE HE
12:39DESCRIBED FOR HIS MILITARY.
12:40IF THERE IS NO STRATEGIC END
12:42STATE, THE IDF, ISRAELI DEFENSE
12:45FORCE ENDS UP USING KINETIC
12:47FORCE ONLY.
12:48BUT IF THE STRATEGIC END STATE
12:50INCLUDES A POLITICAL DIMENSION
12:51SUCH AS WE HAVE TO LIVE WITH OUR
12:52PALESTINIAN NEIGHBORS AT THE END
12:54OF THIS, THAT WILL INFORM HOW
12:57ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCES GO ABOUT
12:58THEIR TASK OF DESTROYING HAMAS.
13:01RIGHT NOW I THINK GIVEN THE
13:03ATTITUDE OF THE NETANYAHU
13:06GOVERNMENT ON ALL ASPECTS OF
13:07THIS, I DON'T SEE IT GETTING ANY
13:09BETTER, UNFORTUNATELY.
13:09AND THAT DOES NOT BODE WELL FOR
13:11THE ABILITY OF THE UNITED STATES
13:12TO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT ISRAEL.
13:15>> SO FASCINATING AS WE CONTINUE
13:17TO WATCH BOTH THESE WARS.
13:19GENERAL BEN HODGES, THANK YOU
13:19VERY MUCH INDEED.
13:21AND OF COURSE, IT'S 432,000
13:25CIVILIANS WHO WERE KILLED IN
13:26THOSE U.S. POST-9/11 WARS.
13:28>>> NOW TO RUSSIA, WHERE IS
13:31ALEXEI NAVALNY?
13:33IT HAS BEEN SEVEN DAYS SINCE HIS
13:34TEAM HAD ANY CONTACT WITH HIM.
13:35HE IS OF COURSE THE RUSSIAN
13:37OPPOSITION LEADER WHO HAS BEEN
13:38JAILED FOR YEARS.
13:39THIS MORNING, HE FAILED TO SHOW
13:42UP FOR A COURT DATE, ADDING TO
13:43THE CONCERNS NAVALNY HAS
13:48SUFFERED SERIOUS HEALTH ISSUES
13:49WHILE IN PRISON.
13:52PUTIN SPOKESPERSON DMITRY PESKOV
13:55SAYS THE KREMLIN HAS NEITHER THE
13:57INTENTION OR THE ABILITY TO
13:58MONITOR THE STATE OF PRISONERS.
14:04HIS CLOSE AIDE JOINS US FROM
14:06HEADQUARTERS IN VILNIUS,
14:09LITHUANIA.
14:09MARIA, WELCOME BACK TO OUR
14:11PROGRAM.
14:11SO CAN YOU GIVE US UPDATE?
14:14IS THERE ANY MORE NEWS IN THE
14:15LAST FEW HOURS?
14:16HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANY MORE
14:20INFORMATION ABOUT THE
14:21POSSIBILITIES OF WHERE ALEXEI
14:22NAVALNY MIGHT BE?
14:23>> I WOULD LOVE TO GIVE YOU AN
14:25UPDATE, CHRISTIANE, BUT WE DON'T
14:27HAVE ANYTHING NEW.
14:28AND THAT'S EXACTLY THE PROBLEM.
14:30IT'S BEEN A WEEK SINCE WE
14:35HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING SPECIFIC
14:35FROM NAVALNY, AND WE ARE
14:39DESPERATELY LOOKING FOR AN
14:40UPDATE, FOR INFORMATION, FOR
14:41CLUES THAT WOULD HELP US LOCATE
14:43HIM.
14:43BUT SADLY, FOR MORE THAN SEVEN
14:46DAYS NOW, WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO
14:49IDEA WHERE HE IS.
14:50>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WHEN YOU
14:52THINK ABOUT IT WITH ALL THE
14:53EXPERIENCE YOU'VE HAD WHEN YOU
14:54TALK TO ALL HIS LAWYERS AND
14:56AIDES AND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN
14:59CONSTANT CONTACT WITH HIM UNTIL
15:00NOW, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE
15:03REASON?
15:03WHAT DO YOU THINK COULD HAVE
15:03HAPPENED?
15:09>> I THINK IT'S REASONABLE TO
15:11SAY THAT IT MUST BE CONNECTED TO
15:15PUTIN'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN,
15:16TO THE CAMPAIGN THAT HAS BEEN
15:18ANNOUNCED LAST WEEK.
15:19PUTIN IS GOING TO RUN FOR THE
15:23ELECTIONS FOR THE FIFTH TIME IN
15:25MARCH 2024.
15:27AND IT WAS OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED
15:30LAST WEEK.
15:30AND AROUND THIS TIME, MAYBE A
15:34DAY OR TWO BEFORE THAT, THIS IS
15:36WHEN WE LOST TOUCH WITH NAVALNY.
15:41AND I WOULD IMAGINE THESE TWO
15:42EVENTS ARE INTERCONNECTED.
15:44WE HAVE ALSO ANNOUNCED OUR OWN
15:46CAMPAIGN, ANTI-PUTIN CAMPAIGN,
15:48ANTI-WAR CAMPAIGN, AND I THINK
15:50THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF THIS
15:52EXTREME ISOLATION THAT WE'RE
15:54DEALING WITH NOW IS TO
15:59SILSILENCE
15:59NAVALNY AND CUT HIM OFF FROM THE
16:03OUTSIDE WORLD ENTIRELY.
16:07SO IT'S VERY LIKELY THAT THIS IS
16:09THE WAY THAT PUTIN IS GOING TO
16:11MANAGE HIS PRESIDENTIAL
16:12CAMPAIGN.
16:13AND HE WOULD LOVE IT TO BE AS
16:16QUIET AND AS SMOOTH AS POSSIBLE.
16:18>> SO ARE YOU SAYING -- BECAUSE
16:21AS I SAID, DMITRY PESKOV SAID
16:24THEY HAD NEITHER THE ABILITY,
16:26THE CAPACITY OR THE WILLINGNESS
16:28TO MONITOR A PRISONER'S
16:30WHEREABOUTS.
16:30BUT OBVIOUSLY HE IS A MAJOR
16:34PRISONER, A MAJOR THORN IN THEIR
16:35OWN SIDE.
16:36SO THEY'VE GOT KNOW WHERE HE IS
16:38AND WHAT HIS STATE.
16:40DO YOU THINK THE ISOLATION WILL
16:43CONTINUE UNTIL THE ELECTION OR
16:44THEREAFTER?
16:47>> IT IS POSSIBLE.
16:48AND OF COURSE, EVERY TIME PESKOV
16:51OPENS HIS MOUTH, IT'S VERY
16:52LIKELY TO BE A LIE.
16:54SO WE HAVE SURE THAT THE KREMLIN
16:56KNOWS EXACTLY WHERE NAVALNY IS,
16:59AND WE'RE ALSO SURE THAT THE
17:01KREMLIN FROM DAY ONE OF
17:03NAVALNY'S IMPRISONMENT, THAT
17:04THEY ARE DEALING WITH HIM ON A
17:09DAY-BY-DAY BASIS AT THE HIGHEST
17:12AVAILABLE LEVEL AT THE PRESENT
17:12ADMINISTRATION.
17:15WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE WHAT
17:16HIS PLANS ARE.
17:17AND THIS IS ALSO A TERRIFYING
17:19THING.
17:20WE KNOW THAT'S THE VERY SAME
17:21PEOPLE WHO KEEP NAVALNY IN
17:23CUSTODY RIGHT NOW BEFORE THAT
17:24HAVE AUTHORIZED HIS MURDER.
17:26BEFORE THAT HAVE ATTEMPTED TO
17:28POISON HIM WITH A CHEMICAL
17:32WEAPON, WITH NOVA TOX.
17:34SO CLEARLY, THESE PEOPLE HAVE
17:36ZERO BOUNDARIES.
17:37THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO RESPECT FOR
17:39HUMAN LIFE.
17:40AND THEY ARE CAPABLE OF
17:42ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING.
17:42>> CAN I ASK YOU JUST TO GO BACK
17:44TO SOMETHING WE SPOKE ABOUT
17:47WHEN -- DURING THE FILMING, THE
17:50DOCUMENTARY THAT WON THE OSCAR.
17:52BEFORE NAVALNY WENT BACK TO
17:54RUSSIA, I ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS
17:55DECISION TO RETURN.
17:56THIS IS A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT HE
17:58TOLD ME, JUST A SHORT EXCERPT
18:01FOR OUR INTERVIEW.
18:02>> THE REASON WHY THE WHOLE
18:03COUNTRY IS DEGRADING.
18:04HE IS THE REASON WHY PEOPLE ARE
18:06SO POOR.
18:07WE HAVE 25 MILLION PEOPLE LIVING
18:09BELOW THE POVERTY LINE.
18:11AND THE WHOLE DEGRADATION OF
18:14SYSTEM.
18:14FORTUNATELY FOR ME INCLUDING
18:16SYSTEM OF ASSASSINATION OF
18:17PEOPLE, HE IS THE REASON OF
18:20THAT.
18:20AND I WANT TO GO BACK AND TRY TO
18:21CHANGE IT.
18:23>> HE BEING PUTIN, OBVIOUSLY.
18:26WHEN WE SPOKE YOU SAID YOU
18:28BELIEVE HE MADE THE RIGHT
18:29DECISION TO GO BACK.
18:31DO YOU STILL THINK HE MADE THE
18:34RIGHT DECISION?
18:36>> UM, I'M STILL CONVINCED HE
18:40DID.
18:40AS DIFFICULT AS IT IS TO SAY IT,
18:44JUST LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENS TO
18:47EVEN MORE PEOPLE LIVE BELOW
18:49POVERTY LINE NOW, EVEN WORSE
18:51THINGS HAVE HAPPENED.
18:52MORE MURDERS, MORE POLITICAL
18:55IMPRISONMENTS SINCE THAT
18:56INTERVIEW THAT WE'VE JUST SEEN,
18:59HAS LAUNCHED A WAR, A FULL-SCALE
19:01WAR AGAINST UKRAINE.
19:05SO NOW IT REALLY -- DOESN'T IT
19:08MAKE MORE SENSE NOW WHY NAVALNY
19:10WENT BACK?
19:11THAT'S EXACTLY WHY HE DID IT.
19:15BECAUSE IT'S SOMEBODY NEEDS TO
19:17STOP THIS.
19:17SOMEBODY NEEDS TO BE BRAVE
19:20ENOUGH TO SAY NO AND TO FIGHT
19:23THIS DICTATORSHIP.
19:25AND NAVALNY BEING THE LEADER
19:27THAT HE IS, HE IS LEADING BY
19:29EXAMPLE.
19:29>> AND PAYING A VERY HEAVY
19:30PRICE.
19:30THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING
19:31US.
19:33>>> NOW IN CONTEMPORARY ART,
19:35THERE IS THE WORLD BEFORE MARIA
19:39ABRAMOVICH AND THE WORLD AFTER.
19:40THE SERBIAN ART CYST A
19:43CELEBRATED PIONEER OF
19:44PERFORMANCE ART.
19:48RATHER THAN WORKING WITH CANVAS
19:49OR CLAY, SHE USES HER BODY AS A
19:51MEDIUM, FORCING THE AUDIENCES TO
19:52I WANT ACT WITH HER FROM WAYS
19:55THAT RANGE FROM UNCOMFORTABLE TO
19:57DOWNRIGHT DANGEROUS.
19:57THE ROYAL ACADEMY IN LONDON HAVE
19:59TAKEN ON THE DAUNTING TASK OF
20:01PRESENTING A DEFINITIVE
20:03RETROSPECTIVE OF ABRAMOVICH'S
20:05WORK.
20:06WHEN WE MET RECENTLY, SHE SHOWED
20:08ME THROUGH SOME OF THE
20:10INSTALLATIONS WHILE
20:11DEMONSTRATING WHY SHE IS ON
20:12TRULY AN EXTRAORDINARY JOURNEY,
20:15AND WHY AT77 SHE REMAINS
20:19UNSTOPPABLE IN HER FIELD.
20:21MARINA ABRAMOVICH, WELCOME TO
20:22THE PROGRAM IS THERE.
20:23PERFORMANCE ART, AND THEN THERE
20:24IS YOU.
20:25JUST A WALK AROUND THIS
20:26EXHIBITION REALLY MAKES ME
20:28WONDER, ARE THERE ANY LIMITS
20:29THAT YOU WILL NOT GO TO?
20:32YOUR BODY IS YOUR TOOL.
20:33AND IT IS EXTRAORDINARY WHAT YOU
20:34DO TO IT.
20:37BUT THIS QUESTION I CAN ANSWER
20:39WITH ANOTHER QUESTION.
20:43WHO CREATE?
20:43I THINK WE DO.
20:44I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO
20:45WHEN I GET AN IDEA THAT I NOT
20:49INTERESTED IN THE IDEA I LIKE.
20:51I'M INTERESTED IN THE IDEA I
20:55HATE.
20:55AND I'M INCREDIBLY SCARED OF.
20:57BECAUSE THEN MEANS A PROBLEM I
20:59HAVE TO SOLVE.
20:59AND THEN I LIKE TO DO IT.
21:00SO THE ONLY THING THAT I AM
21:02DOING, I AM USING MY OWN BODY IN
21:05ORDER TO STAGE THAT KIND OF
21:07FEARS IN FRONT OF THE PUBLIC.
21:09I'M GOING THROUGH.
21:10IF I GO THROUGH, YOU CAN GO
21:11THROUGH.
21:12>> SO THE WAY YOU HAVE PERFORMED
21:13GOING THROUGH IS THROUGH A DOOR,
21:15WHERE ORIGINALLY, YOU AND YOUR
21:16LOVER AT THE TIME STOOD IN A
21:19DOORWAY NAKED.
21:20AND THE CHALLENGE WAS FOR THE
21:24VISITORS TO WALK THROUGH YOU.
21:25WHAT FEAR WERE YOU ADDRESSING
21:27THERE?
21:27AND WHAT DID YOU AIM TO
21:29ACCOMPLISH?
21:29>> FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNOW, THE
21:32MAIN IDEA WAS THERE WAS A BIG
21:34PERFORMANCE FIRST OF ALL IN
21:36ITALY AT THE TIME VERY EARLY IN
21:381997.
21:38AND WE WERE THINKING WHAT ARE WE
21:40GOING TO DO IN THIS FESTIVAL?
21:41BUT YOU KNOW, THE IDEA WAS IF
21:44IT'S NOT ARTISTS, THERE WILL NOT
21:46BE MUSEUMS.
21:47SO ARTISTS ARE THE DOOR OF THE
21:48MUSEUM.
21:49SO WE WANT TO BE IN VERY
21:52POLITICAL WAY THE DOOR OF THE
21:53MUSEUM.
21:53TO DO THAT, WE HAVE TO REBUILD
21:55THE DOOR SMALLER SO IT'S REALLY
21:57NARROW ACTUALLY ENTRANCE.
21:58IN THOSE DAYS WAS IMPOSSIBLE.
22:02IN MANY OTHER MUSEUMS YOU HAVE
22:05TO HAVE SECOND THAT PEOPLE HAVE
22:08ALTERNATIVE.
22:081997, WE HAD RADICAL WAY OF
22:09DOING STUFF, WHICH I KNOW
22:12BECAUSE OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS
22:13WE ARE NOT ABLE TO DO ANYMORE.
22:16SO WE HAVE LOTS OF RESTRICTIONS
22:18ON ART TODAY.
22:19AND THEN THE IDEA WAS WE GO
22:22THROUGH, AND THE FEELING WAS
22:23REALLY TO BE NAKED AND HAVE
22:25HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE
22:27PASSING SO CLOSE TO YOUR BODY
22:28AND HAVE THIS INTIMACY.
22:30NOT EASY.
22:31NOT EVEN MENTION STEPPING ON
22:32YOUR FEET.
22:33>> AND DID THAT HAPPEN?
22:34>> OH, YES, MANY TIMES.
22:36>> AND DID PEOPLE EITHER
22:38INTENTIONALLY OR NOT TOUCH YOU
22:39IN AREAS YOU DIDN'T WANT?
22:41>> IN THAT PARTICULAR WORK,
22:43THERE WERE PEOPLE SO
22:45INTIMIDATED, THEY WERE GOING
22:46VERY CLOSE.
22:47THEY WOULD TRY TO AVOID EYE
22:48CONTACT, AND THEY WOULD SAY
22:51EXCUSE ME IN ITALIAN, WHICH IS
22:53BESIDE THE POINT.
22:54WE CLEARED THE SITUATION.
22:55THERE IS ONE ONLY MAN WHO HAD A
22:57SMALL CAMERA, AND JUST PASSED
23:00VERY FAST AND TOOK PHOTO OF OUR
23:02GENITALS.
23:03THAT IS VERY WEIRD.
23:03BUT HERE IS A QUESTION, MARINA.
23:05YOU SAY IN THE INTERVENING
23:07YEARS, YOU HAVE HAD TO PROVIDE
23:09ALTERNATIVE SPACES FOR PEOPLE
23:11WHO ARE UNCOMFORTABLE TO
23:12EXPERIENCE THAT CLOSE INTIMACY.
23:14A, IS THAT A CENSORSHIP?
23:16AND B, SELF-CENSORSHIP, AND B,
23:20HOW DO YOU REACT TO SOCIETY'S
23:22HOW CAN SHE DO THAT?
23:23THIS IS JUST SO NAKED.
23:25THIS IS TOO REVEALING, ET
23:27CETERA?
23:28>> IF I WILL READ THE CRITICISM
23:30FROM THE '70s, I WOULD NEVER
23:31LEAVE THE HOUSE.
23:33I WAS COMPLETELY CRUCIFIED.
23:35MY MOTHER AND FATHER, FIRST OF
23:37ALL, WHEN I WAS DOING STUFF LIKE
23:39COMMON STAR ON THE SQUARE IN
23:42BELGRADE, THERE WAS A QUESTION
23:44COMMUNIST ARTISTS WHAT THE HELL
23:45EDUCATION I HAD.
23:46PROFESSORS WAS THINKING THAT I
23:47SHOULD BE PUT IN MENTAL
23:49HOSPITAL.
23:49IT WAS EVERYBODY WAS AGAINST IT.
23:51I HAD TO BELIEVE SO MUCH OF THIS
23:53KIND OF FORM OF ART UNTIL NOW
23:55THAT ACTUALLY THIS FORM ART
23:59REALLY I THINK IT'S INCREDIBLY
24:02IMPORTANT.
24:03BECAUSE IT'S MATERIAL.
24:03IT'S TIME-BASED.
24:04YOU HAVE TO BE THERE TO WATCH
24:06IT, TO SEE IT.
24:07AND IT'S HIGHLY, HIGHLY
24:09EMOTIONAL.
24:09AND THE ONLY WAY I CAN DO IT.
24:12>> WHAT ARE YOU SAYING HERE,
24:14MARINA?
24:14THIS IS QUITE --
24:15>> I MADE THE SKELETON EXACTLY
24:18MY SIZE.
24:19I'M LYING IN SKELETON.
24:21I JUST WANT TO KNOW, HOW IT
24:25FEEL.
24:27SUFI SAID "LIFE IS A DREAM THAT
24:29IS WAKING UP."
24:31I JUST WANT TO KNOW THE MOMENT.
24:33THE MOMENT I WANT TO DIE IS
24:34WITHOUT FEAR, WITHOUT ANGER, AND
24:37CONSCIOUSLY.
24:38THREE THINGS.
24:39AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU
24:41NEED TO TRAIN DURING THE LIFE.
24:43IT DOESN'T COME JUST LIKE THAT.
24:44>> DEATH IS A HUGE PART OF YOUR
24:45LIFE IN YOUR WORK.
24:47>> YEAH.
24:48>> YOU'RE ALWAYS THINKING ABOUT
24:49DEATH.
24:50>> ALL THE TIME.
24:51>> HOW DO YOU STAY HAPPY AND
24:54POSITIVE?
24:55>> I'M HILARIOUS IN REAL LIFE.
24:58I'M HONESTLY READY TO STAND UP
25:00COMEDY.
25:00HAVE I SO MUCH.
25:02I NEED TO LOVE.
25:02BECAUSE WORK IS SO HAIRY.
25:05>> AND THIS HERE IS DRAMATIC.
25:07WHAT CAUSED YOU TO -- THIS IS
25:09YOUR REFLECTION ON THE BALKAN
25:11WARS.
25:11AND I COVERED THE BOSNIA WAR.
25:14>> YEAH, YOU CAN'T CLEAN THE
25:16BLOOD.
25:16AND I'M CLEANING BLOOD, WHICH IS
25:19AMERICAN, BUT ALSO CREATE A
25:21METAPHOR, THAT THIS CAN BE ANY
25:23WAR, ANYWHERE.
25:25HERE WHEN WE OFFERED THE SHOT,
25:27PALESTINIANS, ISRAELIANS,
25:28UKRAINIAN, RUSSIAN, THEY'RE ALL
25:29HERE IN THIS ROOM.
25:30>> A AND THE DRAMA OF THE
25:32PERFORMANCE WAS YOU SITTING ON
25:34THESE BONES, WHICH ARE REAL COW
25:37BONES, REAL MEAT, REAL BLOOD.
25:39>> REAL BLOOD.
25:40SIX DAYS I DO THIS, SIX HOURS A
25:42DAY, COUNTING.
25:43>> HOW DID THAT AFFECT YOU
25:45SPIRITUALLY?
25:46>> IT'S, YOU KNOW, I REALLY AM
25:49VERY PROUD OF THIS PIECE,
25:50BECAUSE I KNOW THIS PIECE COULD
25:50BE FOREVER.
25:53IT WAS MY WAR THAT I WAS SHOWING
25:55ABOUT BALKAN.
25:56BUT AFTER THAT, YOU CAN BE USED
25:59ANYWHERE.
25:59THIS IS SO IMPORTANT.
26:00THAT ARTISTS SHOULD NOT CREATE
26:02SOMETHING WHICH IS TEMPORARY.
26:04YOU TO CREATE SOMETHING THAT HAS
26:07POSITION TO ANY WAR, ANY TIME,
26:07ANY PLACE.
26:10>> SO WE'RE SITTING IN THIS
26:13ROOM, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT,
26:14BECAUSE IT HAS ALMOST YOUR
26:16SIGNATURE PIECE OF THE
26:19CHINESE -- THE GREAT WALL IN
26:20CHINA.
26:21AND IT WAS DESIGNED FOR YOU AND
26:25YOUR LOVER ULE TO WALK FROM EACH
26:28END.
26:29THAT'S A TOTAL OF 5,000 PLUS
26:31KILOMETERS.
26:31YOU WATCHED 2,500 EACH.
26:33IT TOOK YOU WHAT, THREE MONTHS
26:35OR SO TO WALK.
26:36WHAT WERE YOU MEANT TO DO WHEN
26:37YOU MET?
26:38AND WHAT DID YOU ACTUALLY DO?
26:40>> SO THIS PROJECT START AFTER
26:44WE LEAVE CENTRAL AUSTRALIA ONE
26:47YEAR IN DESERT.
26:48AND WE REALIZED THE TIME THE
26:51ASTRONAUTS, WHEN THEY LAND ON
26:52THE MOON SAID THAT ONLY TWO
26:56VISIBLE BUILDINGS MADE BY HUMAN
26:57HANDS IS THE PYRAMIDS AND GREAT
26:59WALL OF CHINA.
27:00AND WE HAD IDEA AT THAT TIME IN
27:02THE DESERT, LET'S WALK GREAT
27:04WALL OF CHINA.
27:06IN EIGHT YEARS WE WAS WRITING TO
27:08CHINA'S GOVERNMENT LETTERS.
27:09AND EIGHT YEARS WE WERE GETTING
27:11VERY FRIENDLY ANSWER, BUT WE
27:12DIDN'T WALK ANYWHERE.
27:13THE IDEA WAS THIS WALK, AND WE
27:16MEET IN THE MIDDLE AND WE
27:18MARRIED.
27:18AND EIGHT YEARS CHINESE NOT
27:19ANSWER.
27:19SO WE FINALLY FOUND ONE MAN WHO
27:22IS SPECIALIST ON CHINA POLITICS,
27:24AND WE SHOW HIM ALL THESE
27:26LETTERS.
27:26AND HE START LAUGHING.
27:30WHAT IS SO FUNNY?
27:32CHINESE HAVE 17 WAYS TO SAY NO.
27:35AND IN THIS EIGHT YEARS, THEY
27:37EXERCISED ALL 70 YEARS.
27:38SO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE
27:40GOVERNMENT.
27:40THE DUTCH GOVERNMENT AND THE
27:41CHINESE GOVERNMENT.
27:42AND FINALLY, AFTER EIGHT YEARS,
27:43WE GOT PERMISSION TO WALK THE
27:46GREAT WALL OF CHINA.
27:46BUT AT THAT TIME, OUR RELATION
27:48WAS ENDING.
27:49BUT AS WE NEVER GIVE UP
27:51ANYTHING, WE SAY OKAY.
27:52NOW WE'RE GOING TO WALK.
27:53INSTEAD OF MARRY, WE'RE GOING
27:54SAY GOODBYE.
27:55AND ONE OF OUR FRIENDS, AMERICAN
27:59WHY DON'T YOU USE PHONE CALL?
28:00HE MISSED THE WHOLE POINT.
28:03>> I MEAN, SERIOUSLY, IT MUST
28:05HAVE BEEN VERY PAINFUL, NO, WHEN
28:07YOU FINALLY MET AFTER ALL THOSE
28:09YEARS OF WORK AFTER SOMETHING
28:11THAT WAS MEANT TO BE A
28:12CELEBRATION OF YOUR LOVE AND
28:13YOUR UNITY ACTUALLY WAS THE
28:16DISSOLUTION.
28:16WAS IT EMOTIONAL?
28:17DID YOU CRY?
28:19>> IT WAS INCREDIBLY EMOTIONAL.
28:21FIRST EMOTIONAL FOR FEW REASONS.
28:24BEFORE, IF YOU LOSE LOVE OF YOUR
28:27LIFE, YOU STILL GO BACK ON YOUR
28:28OWN WORK.
28:29BUT AT THIS TIME I WAS 40
28:30EXACTLY.
28:31AND ALL THE WORK FOR TURKEY WAS
28:33SIGNED TWO NAMES.
28:34SO BOTH OF US DIDN'T HAVE ANY
28:36MORE OF OUR OWN WORK.
28:38SO FOR ME WAS JUST I LOST A LOT,
28:41BUT ALSO LOST THE WORK THERE WAS
28:43NOWHERE TO COME BACK.
28:44AND THIS WAS INCREDIBLE PRESSING
28:46MOMENT OF MY LIFE.
28:47>> AND THEN A FEW YEARS LATER,
28:49YOU WENT BACK TO AN AMAZING
28:52PERFORMANCE THAT WENT VIRAL
28:53AROUND THE WORLD.
28:54THE ARTIST IS PRESENT.
28:55IT FIRST SHOWED AT THE MUSEUM OF
28:57MODERN ART IN NEW YORK, I THINK.
29:00AND WHAT HAPPENED?
29:02BECAUSE OF SOMETHING LIKE 1500
29:04PEOPLE CAME AND SAT NEXT TO YOU
29:06AND TRIED TO STARE YOU OUT.
29:07BUT ON ONE OCCASION, YOUR FORMER
29:11LOVER CAME.
29:12>> YES.
29:13ACTUALLY I INVITE HIM AS THE
29:15GUEST OF HONOR IN THAT MOMENT
29:18WITH ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA HE IS
29:20EVER GOING TO SIT WITH ME.
29:21THIS WAS NOT IN THE QUESTION.
29:22SO WHEN HE CAME AND JUST APPEAR
29:24IN FRONT OF ME, YOU KNOW, I
29:26NEVER BREAK THE RULES.
29:28LIKE I'M A SOLDIER.
29:29I'M WARRIOR.
29:31I DO THINGS ABSOLUTELY AS I
29:33DECIDE.
29:33THIS WAS THE ONLY TIME I BROKE
29:35THE RULE.
29:37BECAUSE IN THE FRONT OF ME WAS A
29:38MAN I LOVED SO MUCH.
29:39AND WAS IN FRONT OF ME
29:41SOMEBODY -- IT WAS NOT THE
29:42PUBLIC.
29:42IT WAS LIFE ITSELF.
29:45SO I PUT MY HAND ON THE TABLE TO
29:47TOUCH HIM AND JUST CRY.
29:49IT WAS ONE OF THESE MOMENTS THAT
29:52IT WAS SO INTENSE.
29:56[ APPLAUSE ]
30:00AND SO INTERESTING HOW THE YOUNG
30:03PEOPLE BECOME THE KIND OF VITAL
30:07EVERYWHERE, BECAUSE PEOPLE
30:08REALIZE REAL EMOTIONS.
30:10I HAVE A FLASH BACK OF 12 YEARS,
30:11ALL THE GOODS, ALL THE
30:13AMBASSADOR.
30:13IT WAS NOT EASY.
30:15IT WAS HELL.
30:16IT WAS WONDERFUL.
30:16IT WAS PASSIONATE.
30:17IT WAS ALL AT ONCE.
30:21>> AND IT WAS RULE THAT YOU
30:22BROKE, BECAUSE I WAS ONE OF THEM
30:23WHO CAME AND SAT IN FRONT YOU
30:25HAVE.
30:25AND I KNOW PEOPLE TRIED TO MAKE
30:27YOU LAUGH, TRIED TO MAKE YOU
30:28BREAK YOUR GAZE, TRIED TO MAKE
30:30YOU NOT BE AS DISCIPLINED AS YOU
30:32WERE.
30:32AND I WAS STAGGERLED BY HOW
30:36PASSIVE AND UNEMOTIONAL.
30:37BUT YOUR EYES TALKED.
30:40SO IT WAS SOMETHING FOR YOU TO
30:42BREAK THAT RULE.
30:42>> YEAH.
30:43THAT WAS REALLY HIGH EMOTIONS.
30:44BUT ALSO, I HEARD THAT PEOPLE
30:49SITTING IN FRONT OF ME, BECAUSE
30:50I COULD SEE SOLITUDE.
30:52I COULD SEE PAIN.
30:53I COULD SEE UNHAPPINESS.
30:55I COULD SEE HAPPINESS.
30:56I COULD SEE SO MANY DIFFERENT
30:59EMOTIONS, WHICH IS INTERESTING
31:00ABOUT THE SITTING.
31:01JUST THAT MOMENT AND WHY SO
31:03SIMPLE IS WHEN YOU'RE WAITING IN
31:06THE LINE FOR A LONG TIME,
31:08FINALLY YOU COME AND SIT IN THE
31:10FRONT OF ME.
31:10AND YOU ARE WATCHED BY THE
31:13PEOPLE WAITING.
31:13YOU'RE WATCHED BY CAMERAS.
31:16PHOTOGRAPHER, AND YOU'RE WATCHED
31:17BY ME.
31:19BASICALLY, YOU'RE NOWHERE TO
31:21ESCAPE EXCEPT INTO YOURSELF.
31:22WITH THAT HAPPEN, YOU KIND OF
31:25SHOW ME THE TRUE SELF, AND I
31:26COULD SEE IT, AND YOU COULD SEE
31:28YOURSELF.
31:28AND THEN ALL THE PEOPLE START
31:30CRYING.
31:30WE HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE CRYING.
31:32IT WAS REALLY VERY EMOTIONAL
31:35MOMENT.
31:36AND THE CREATOR OF THE SHOW, HE
31:37SAID TO ME, WHEN I GIVE HIM THE
31:39IDEA, THIS IS RIDICULOUS.
31:41NOBODY GOING TO SIT ON THIS
31:43CHAIR BECAUSE NOBODY HAVE TIME.
31:44THIS CHAIR WILL BE ALWAYS EMPTY.
31:47THE CHAIR WAS NEVER EMPTY.
31:48>> AND THERE WERE LINES AROUND
31:50THE BLOCK.
31:51>> AND PEOPLE SLEEPING OUTSIDE
31:52LAST WEEK.
31:53IT WAS REALLY SOMETHING TO
31:53REMEMBER.
31:55>> SO IF THAT WAS KIND OF GENTLE
31:57AND COMMUNICATIVE, ONE OF YOUR
32:00EXHIBITIONS WHICH IS HERE NOW IS
32:02A TABLE OF 72 OBJECTS THAT YOU
32:06SAY DO WHAT YOU WILL WITH THESE
32:09OBJECTS, I AM THE TOOL.
32:10DO WHATEVER YOU WANT TO ME.
32:13TELL ME HOW THAT PLAYED OUT?
32:15BECAUSE IT TURNED OUT PRETTY
32:16VIOLENT AT ONE POINT.
32:17>> BUT, YOU KNOW, I WAS 23 YEARS
32:20OLD.
32:20I WAS SO ANGRY.
32:23I WAS SO ANGRY ON THE PUBLIC,
32:25NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT
32:27PERFORMANCE ART IS.
32:28AND WHATEVER I WAS DOING, I WAS
32:30ALWAYS JUDGED.
32:31AND I SAY OKAY, WHAT IF I DON'T
32:33DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING?
32:34I AM THE TOOL.
32:35I AM THERE WITH YOU.
32:38AND YOU DO STUFF.
32:40I'M NOT DOING IT.
32:41IT WAS INCREDIBLE TO SEE THAT.
32:45BECAUSE IN NAPLES, FOR PLEASURE
32:49AND VIOLENCE, AND PISTOL, IT WAS
32:51INCREDIBLE.
32:51IN THE FIRST, IT WAS SIX HOURS.
32:54THE FIRST ONE TWO HOURS NOTHING
32:55REALLY HAPPENED.
32:56THEN THEY GIVE ME ROLES.
32:59THEN THEY CUT MY SHIRT.
33:01THEN THEY PUT RAINS ON ROWS ON
33:04MY BODY.
33:04AND THEN THE SCARF AND THEY SUCK
33:08BLOOD ON MY NECK.
33:09AND THEN THEY CARRY ME AROUND.
33:11THERE WAS SO MUCH -- THE
33:15VIOLENCE.
33:15VERY INTERESTING THING HAPPENED.
33:17WOMEN DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.
33:20WOMEN TOLD MEN WHAT TO DO, AND
33:22WOMAN TOOK, WHEN I WAS CRYING,
33:24THEY WOULD TAKE HANDKERCHIEF AND
33:26WASH MY FACE OF THE TEARS.
33:27>> HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THAT?
33:29>> I DON'T.
33:30I HAVE NO -- I'M SHOCKED.
33:33THIS WAS HAPPENING.
33:34AND THEN THE MOMENT OF THE SIX
33:36HOURS, THE GALLERY SAY TO ME, I
33:38AM FINISHED, BECAUSE I WAS LIKE
33:41ABSOLUTELY STATUE, PUT YOUR HEAD
33:43LIKE THIS AND STAY LIKE THIS.
33:44WHATEVER YOU DO, I AM IN THIS
33:46POSITION.
33:46AFTER THE SIX HOURS, HE SAY IT'S
33:49OVER.
33:49I WAS FULL OF BLOOD, WATER, HALF
33:52NAKED.
33:52I WAS WALKING TOWARDS THE PUBLIC
33:55AS ME.
33:55THEY RAN AWAY, ALL OF THEM.
33:57AND THEN I CAME TO THE HOTEL,
33:59AND I LOOKED MYSELF IN THE
34:00MIRROR, AND I WAS JUST PIECE OF
34:05WHITE HAIR.
34:06>> REALLY?
34:06>> YOUR HAIR TURNED WHITE IN ONE
34:08NIGHT?
34:09ONE STREAK?
34:09>> AFTER THIS PIECE.
34:10THIS WAS A PIECE THAT I REALIZED
34:13THAT I REALLY COULD BE KILLED.
34:16>> AND SOMEBODY DID POINT A
34:17LOADED GUN AT YOU.
34:18>> YES.
34:18AND THEN ANOTHER PERSON CAME AND
34:20TOOK THE GUN TO THE WINDOW.
34:22THERE WAS SO MUCH VIOLENCE.
34:23>> AT WHAT POINT DO THE GUARDS
34:25HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY?
34:26MARINA YOU COULD HAVE BEEN
34:28KILLED.
34:28>> I KNOW.
34:29>> SOMEBODY COULD HAVE NOT JUST
34:30NICKED YOUR NECK.
34:30THEY COULD HAVE GOT YOUR
34:34JUGULAR.
34:34>> BUT NOW WE TALK ABOUT
34:35PERFORMANCE.
34:35WHEN YOU GO IN TO STATE
34:37PERFORMANCE, YOU'RE NOT YOU.
34:39YOU'RE NOT LITTLE MARINA WHO CAN
34:43TAKING ALL HELL CAN HAPPEN.
34:45YOU'RE SUPER MARINA.
34:46YOU'RE THE HIGHER FORM OF
34:47YOURSELF.
34:47AND THEN EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
34:50>> IT'S ALMOST AN OUT-OF-BODY
34:52EXPERIENCE.
34:54ANOTHER PERFORMANCE THAT YOU DID
34:55WITH ULE WAS SO DRAMATIC AS
34:57WELL.
34:58AND YOU EXPLAINED TO ME WHAT
34:59IT'S CALLED.
35:00BUT ESSENTIALLY, YOU'RE BOTH
35:03STANDING, LEANING.
35:04HE'S GOT THE ARROW.
35:05YOU'VE GOT THE BOW.
35:09AND ONE FALSE MOVE COULD HAVE
35:11KILLED YOU.
35:12WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?
35:13>> THIS WAS ALL ABOUT TRUST.
35:15WE'RE BORN THE SAME DAY, ULE AND
35:18ME, NOVEMBER.
35:19WE'RE BOTH SAGITTARIUS.
35:21THE BOW AND ARROW IS A SYMBOL OF
35:23SAGITTARIUS.
35:24AND WE DECIDED TO DO THIS THING.
35:25AND THE ONE POINT IN ONE
35:27INTERVIEW WHERE WE SPLIT A LONG
35:29TIME AGO, THEY ASK ULLE WHY THE
35:33ARROW IS FACING HER AND NOT YOU.
35:36AND YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAY?
35:38HE SAID THIS IS MY HEART TOO.
35:40>> HAD HE JUST FLINCHED A LITTLE
35:42BIT AND LOST HIS GRIP, THE ARROW
35:44WOULD HAVE GONE INTO YOUR HEART,
35:45OR SOMEWHERE.
35:46>> THAT'S TRUE.
35:47BUT GENERALLY, OUR PERFORMANCES
35:49WERE NOT VERY LONG.
35:50THIS WAS THE SHORTEST
35:51PERFORMANCE IN MY LIFE.
35:53IT'S 4:20.
35:54IT WAS A LIFETIME.
35:54A LIFETIME.
35:57>> WERE YOU SCARED?
35:58>> NOT WHEN I'M DOING IT.
36:01EVERYTHING -- MY FEAR IS ALWAYS
36:03BEFORE.
36:04BEFORE I GET INTO THE FRONT OF
36:05THE PUBLIC.
36:06AFTER, NO.
36:07>> IS THIS ABOUT YOU AND YOUR
36:09FEARS AND YOUR EXTREMES OF
36:12BOUNDARIES, OR IS IT ABOUT WHAT
36:14YOU'RE TRYING TO COMMUNICATE
36:16WITH OTHER PEOPLE?
36:17WHAT IS YOUR ABSOLUTE MOTIVATION
36:20BEYOND TAKING THINGS THAT SCARE
36:21YOU SO MUCH AND TRYING TO
36:23CONQUER IT?
36:23>> TO ME, THE MOST IMPORTANT IS
36:25REALLY TO BE EXAMPLE THAT YOU
36:28CAN OVERCOME THE FEAR OF PAIN,
36:30THE FEAR OF DYING, THE FEAR OF
36:35SUFFERING.
36:35ESPECIALLY EMOTIONAL SUFFERING.
36:36THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY OVERCOME.
36:39AND THEN SHOWING IN MY OWN
36:42EXAMPLE.
36:42AND ALSO, NOT TO BE AFRAID OF
36:44FAILURE.
36:44YOU CAN FAIL.
36:45EVERYTHING CAN GO WRONG.
36:46BUT FAILURES ARE SO IMPORTANT,
36:49BECAUSE FAILURES IS A MAIN
36:50LEARNING MATERIAL.
36:51YOU FAIL, YOU STAND UP AND DO IT
36:53AGAIN.
36:53AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT I NEED
36:56TO SHOW TO THE AUDIENCE IS ALL
36:58ABOUT HOW TO LEARN TO LIFT
37:01SPIRITS UP.
37:01IT'S SO EASY TO PICK SPIRIT UP.
37:06IT'S SO DIFFICULT TO PUT IT
37:07DOWN.
37:07YOU KNOW, I WAS VERY ACTUALLY --
37:13IT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT
37:14SUBJECT.
37:14DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR,
37:15WHEN EVERYBODY WAS PAINTING
37:18ATROCITIES AND DIFFICULTIES OF
37:19THE WAR AND A FRIGHTENING
37:20SITUATION, YOU KNOW MATISSE, HE
37:21WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO PAINT
37:25FLOWERS THE ENTIRE FOUR YEARS OF
37:26THE WAR.
37:27AND I START UNDERSTANDING ONLY
37:29NOW WITH MY 78 YEARS OLD, WHY IS
37:31THAT.
37:31BECAUSE YOU NEED TO LIFT THE
37:33SPIRIT OF HUMANITY.
37:34YOU DON'T NEED TO REFLECT WHAT
37:36IS ALREADY IN FRONT OF YOU.
37:38>> WELL, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD
37:39PLACE TO END, BECAUSE RIGHT NOW
37:40THERE IS A LOT OF WAR, A LOT OF
37:44DISCORD, A LOT OF INABILITY TO
37:47COMMUNICATE.
37:48IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO HEAR
37:50YOU SAY THAT THANK YOU, MARINA
37:53ABRAMOVICH.
37:53>> THANK YOU.
37:53>> THE SPIRIT OF HUMANITY
37:56INDEED.
37:56>>> AND NOW, NEWS TODAY FROM
37:59CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS WHERE
38:00HARVARD'S HIGHEST GOVERNING BODY
38:03ANNOUNCED THAT CLAUDINE GAY WILL
38:04REMAIN AS PRESIDENT.
38:05THIS AFTER AN UPROAR ABOUT THE
38:07HANDLING OF ANTISEMITISM ON
38:09CAMPUS AND CONTROVERSIAL
38:10TESTIMONY ON THE MATTER IN FRONT
38:11OF CONGRESS.
38:14RABBI DAVID WOLPE WAS ON
38:17HARVARD'S ANTISEMITISM GROUP BUT
38:19RESIGNED OVER WHAT HE SAYS IS
38:20THE UNIVERSITY'S FAILURE TO TAKE
38:21ITS ADVICE.
38:22HERE IS RABBI TALKING TO HARI
38:29SRINIVASAN ABOUT THAT DECISION.
38:30>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING
38:31US.
38:31BEFORE WE GET TO THE
38:32CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY, I WANT
38:33TO BACK UP A SECOND HERE.
38:36AND WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE
38:39COMMITTEE THAT HARVARD FORMED
38:40THAT YOU WERE A MEMBER OF?
38:42>> AFTER OCTOBER 7th, THE
38:45PRESIDENT REALIZED ONCE LETTERS
38:48HAD COME OUT AND PROTESTS HAD
38:51BEEN EXPLODING ALL OVER CAMPUS
38:53THAT WE HAD IN HER OWN WORDS A
38:55PROBLEM WITH ANTISEMITISM AT
38:57HARVARD.
38:57AND SO SHE CALLED ME, AND A
39:01COUPLE OF OTHER PEOPLE AND SAID
39:02WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO BE ON A
39:03COMMITTEE TO HELP US ADDRESS
39:06THIS.
39:06AND OF COURSE I SAID YES.
39:09AND SO DID A NUMBER OF OTHER
39:10FACULTY AND ALUMNI.
39:12AND WE WERE SUPPOSED TO ADVISE
39:13THE PRESIDENT ON HOW TO TACKLE
39:16THIS PROJECT.
39:16>> GOT IT.
39:17SO WHAT HAS BEEN THE WORK OF THE
39:19COMMITTEE SO FAR?
39:20HAVE YOU MET?
39:21HAVE YOU MADE PROGRESS TOWARDS
39:23THINGS?
39:23>> WELL WE MET MANY TIMES.
39:25WE MET TWICE A WEEK.
39:28OUR -- IN ADVANCE, IT WAS SAID
39:30THAT OUR DELIBERATIONS WERE
39:31GOING TO BE CONFIDENTIAL.
39:32BUT I CAN CERTAINLY SAY WE
39:34TENDERED A LOT OF ADVICE.
39:35>> OKAY.
39:37AND DID YOU FEEL THAT THE
39:38COMMITTEE WAS MAKING PROGRESS
39:40TOWARDS THE GOALS?
39:41>> IF I HAD FELT THAT WE WERE
39:44MAKING PROGRESS TOWARDS THE
39:45GOALS, I THINK I WOULD HAVE
39:46STAYED ON THE COMMITTEE.
39:47BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE
39:49SITUATION WAS GETTING
39:51PROGRESSIVELY WORSE, AND MANY OF
39:53THE THINGS THAT I INDIVIDUALLY
39:56CERTAINLY FELT NEEDED TO HAPPEN
39:57ALMOST IMMEDIATELY DIDN'T
39:58HAPPEN.
40:00>> OKAY.
40:01SO NOW LET'S KIND OF GET OUR
40:03AUDIENCE UP TO SPEED OF WHAT
40:05HAPPENED THIS PAST WEEK.
40:07AND THE PRESIDENTS OF HARVARD,
40:12M.I.T., AND U PENN ALL TESTIFIED
40:15IN FRONT OF CONGRESS.
40:17AND THEY WERE ASKED ELISE
40:18STEFANIK IF CALLING FOR THE
40:20GENOCIDE OF JEWS VIOLATED THE
40:22SCHOOL'S CODE OF CONDUCT.
40:23EACH OF THE THREE GAVE VERY
40:25CAREFULLY WORDED ANSWERS.
40:27WHAT WAS YOUR CONCERN ABOUT
40:28THAT?
40:29>> MY CONCERN WAS ACTUALLY EVEN
40:31LESS THE CONTENT OF THE ANSWER
40:32THAN THE TONE OF THE ANSWER.
40:36THAT IS, I WAS HOPING FOR SOME
40:41INDIGNATION, FOR SOME I'M
40:42PRESIDENT OF A UNIVERSITY, AND I
40:44CAN'T STAND THAT THERE IS
40:45ANTISEMITISM AT MY UNIVERSITY,
40:46AND I'M GOING TO DO EVERYTHING I
40:48POSSIBLY CAN TO ADDRESS IT,
40:49BECAUSE THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE AND
40:51WRONG.
40:52AND INSTEAD, YOU GOT A SORT OF,
40:54YOU KNOW, A PARADE OF LEGALESE
40:58AND EQUIVOCATION AND
41:01QUALIFICATION.
41:01AND I WANTED VISION.
41:02>> LOOK, I KNOW YOU'RE A RABBI,
41:07AND YOU DEAL WITH THE MATTERS OF
41:08THE SOUL A LOT MORE THAN
41:09EVERYONE ELSE, BUT DO YOU THINK
41:11THIS IS A CORE OF THESE THREE
41:14PRESIDENTS OR, LOOK, WERE THEY
41:16PREPPED BY THEIR LAWYERS TO MIND
41:19THEIR P'S AND Q'S AND NOT SAY
41:21SOMETHING THAT MIGHT BE USED
41:23AGAINST THEM LATER AND
41:23IRONICALLY, WHICH IS WHAT
41:26HAPPENED?
41:26>> SO FIRST OF ALL, MY
41:28INTERACTIONS WITH CLAUDINE GAY,
41:30I LIKE HER.
41:31I THINK SHE IS VERY THOUGHTFUL
41:33AND GOOD AND KIND.
41:34I'VE ALWAYS HAD VERY GOOD
41:37INTERACTIONS WITH HER.
41:37ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU LEARN
41:39AS A RABBI IT'S VERY EASY TO
41:42LEAP TO CONCLUSIONS ABOUT
41:44PEOPLE'S SOULS, AND IF YOU DON'T
41:46BELIEVE ME, JUST LOOK ON SOCIAL
41:48MEDIA.
41:48PEOPLE ARE DOING IT ALL THE TIME
41:49SAYING THIS PERSON'S LIKE THIS
41:52AND THAT PERSON IS LIKE THAT.
41:55I THINK CERTAINLY THE LEGAL
41:58ADVICE PLAYED A ROLE.
42:01BUT I ALSO THINK THAT SELF
42:05CONCEPTION MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING
42:06TO DO WITH IT.
42:07IF YOU THINK OF YOURSELF AS I AM
42:10LEADING THIS GREAT INSTITUTION,
42:11AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT OTHER
42:13PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SAY ABOUT
42:14IT, I HAVE TO TAKE THIS STAND
42:17BECAUSE I AM THE LEADER OF THIS
42:20GREAT INSTITUTION.
42:21MAYBE THAT PUTS A LITTLE ROCKET
42:23FUEL UNDER YOUR RHETORIC.
42:25AND WE DIDN'T SEE THAT.
42:26>> THIS WEEKEND, THE UNIVERSITY
42:29OF PENNSYLVANIA PRESIDENT LIZ
42:30MAGILL RESIGNED.
42:32SHE ED?
42:33A VIDEO THAT SHE POSTED, I WANT
42:35TO QUOTE HERE, IN THAT MOMENT, I
42:37WAS FOCUSED ON OUR UNIVERSITY'S
42:39LONG-STANDING POLICIES ALIGNED
42:41WITH THE U.S. CONSTITUTION WHICH
42:42SAY THAT SPEECH ALONE IS NOT
42:45PUNISHABLE.
42:45SHE WENT ON THE SAY, "I WAS NOT
42:47FOCUSED ON, BUT I SHOULD HAVE
42:48BEEN THE IRREFUTABLE FACT THAT A
42:50CALL FOR GENOCIDE OF JEWISH
42:51PEOPLE IS A CALL FOR SOME OF THE
42:54MOST TERRIBLE VIOLENCE HUMAN
42:55BEINGS CAN PERPETUATE."
42:57WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT?
42:59>> I THINK THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
43:01I THINK THAT IT IS -- WHEN YOU
43:04CREATE A CLIMATE OF ANGER AND
43:06INTIMIDATION ON A COLLEGE
43:09CAMPUS, YOU CAN'T DO WHAT
43:11CAMPUSES ARE INTENDED TO DO,
43:12WHICH IS TO LEARN AND TO TEACH.
43:15AND THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE
43:16FOCUS.
43:17AND I THINK WHAT YOU HEAR IN HER
43:21WORDS IS THAT SHE WAS WORRIED
43:23THAT THERE WOULD BE SOME
43:27STEPPING OVER SOME KIND OF
43:29IMAGINED LEGAL BOUNDARY BACK
43:32WHEN WHAT SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN
43:33WORRIED ABOUT WAS THE STEPPING
43:34OVER OF THE MORAL BOUNDARY.
43:36>> YEAH.
43:37CLAUDINE GAY ALSO MADE A
43:38STATEMENT.
43:38SHE ALSO APOLOGIZED.
43:39IN HER WORDS, "LET ME BE CLEAR,
43:42CALLS FOR VIOLENCE OR GENOCIDE
43:45AGAINST THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OR
43:46ANY RELIGIOUS OR ETHNIC GROUP
43:48ARE VILE.
43:49THEY HAVE NO PLACE AT HARVARD.
43:50AND THOSE WHO THREATEN OUR
43:52JEWISH STUDENTS WILL BE HELD TO
43:53ACCOUNT."
43:54LET'S TALK A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR
43:57RESIGNATION.
43:57SO THESE EVENTS AS WE'VE SAID
43:59THEM, THERE HAS BEEN A COMMITTEE
44:00FOR ANTISEMITISM.
44:01YOU WERE INVITED ON BOARD THIS
44:03TESTIMONY HAPPENS IN FRONT OF
44:04CONGRESS.
44:05AND THEN YOU RESIGN.
44:06HOW COME?
44:08>> BECAUSE THE TESTIMONY
44:10REINFORCED THE SENSE THAT I
44:13ALREADY HAD THAT IN FACT OUR
44:16COUNCIL WAS NOT BEING HELPFUL,
44:18WAS NOT ADVANCING THE CAUSE THAT
44:20I WANTED TO ADVANCE.
44:21AND SO IT SEEMED TO ME ACTUALLY
44:24EASIER IN SOME WAYS TO BE A
44:25SPOKESPERSON OUTSIDE OF THERE.
44:27STUDENTS WERE COMING TO ME AND
44:29SAYING NOT ONLY STUDENTS, BUT
44:32ALSO MEMBERS OF THE JEWISH
44:32COMMUNITY, WHY ARE YOU ON THIS
44:35PANEL?
44:35IT GIVES IT LEGITIMACY WHEN
44:38NOTHING IS HAPPENING.
44:38AND I HEARD THAT, AND I THOUGHT
44:40THERE WAS A LOT OF FORCE TO THAT
44:41CRITIQUE.
44:44AND AT A CERTAIN POINT, I
44:45THOUGHT I CAN'T ASSOCIATE MYSELF
44:47WITH A PANEL THAT GIVES ME A LOT
44:50OF ACCOUNTABILITY AND NO
44:50AUTHORITY.
44:52>> SO YOU FELT THAT BEING ON THE
44:56COMMITTEE WAS -- LIKE YOU COULD
44:57NOT ACTIVATE THE CHANGE THAT YOU
45:00WANTED TO SEE, BEING PART OF THE
45:02STRUCTURE.
45:02THERE IS GOING TO BE A LOT OF
45:04PEOPLE SAYING HEY, LOOK, YOU
45:05KIND OF GAVE UP THE KEYS TO BE
45:09ABLE TO EFFECT CHANGE FROM THE
45:09INSIDE.
45:13>> I REALLY THINK MY EXPERIENCE
45:15SINCE LEAVING, MY VOICE HAS BEEN
45:18AMPLIFIED.
45:18IT ISN'T REDUCED.
45:19I'M STILL IN TOUCH WITH THE
45:21MEMBERS OF THE COMMITTEE AND
45:22WITH THE ADMINISTRATION.
45:23AND AS I SAID, WITH FACULTY,
45:26STUDENTS, ALUMNI, DONORS, I
45:28REALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS A --
45:30THIS IS A CRITICAL INSTITUTION
45:31IN AMERICAN LIFE AND IN WORLD
45:33LIFE.
45:34AND ANYTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO
45:36TRY TO SAVE OUR KEY CAMPUSES AND
45:38MAKE THEM HOMES OF IDEOLOGICAL
45:41DIVERSITY AND REAL DISCUSSION
45:43AND DEEP LEARNING IS A NOBLE AND
45:47EVEN SACRED EFFORT.
45:48>> I WANT TO GO THROUGH PARTS OF
45:50YOUR RESIGNATION STATEMENT HERE
45:51TOO.
45:52YOU SAID "PART OF THE PROBLEM IS
45:54A SIMPLE HERD MENTALITY, PEOPLE
45:55SCREAMING SLOGANS WHOSE MEANING
45:57AND IMPLICATION THEY KNOW
45:59NOTHING OF, OR NOT WISHING TO BE
46:01DISLIKED BY TAKING AN UNPOPULAR
46:04POSITION.
46:04SOME OF IT IS THE DESIRE TO
46:06ACHIEVE SOCIAL STATUS BY BEING
46:10THE SOLE OR GREATEST VICTIM.
46:11SOME OF IT IS SIMPLE
46:14OLD-FASHIONED JEW HATRED, AND
46:16THAT UGLY ARROW IN THE QUIVER OF
46:19DARK HEARTS FOR MILLENNIA."
46:21FOR MOST PEOPLE, IT'S THAT LAST
46:22LINE THAT CONSTITUTES
46:23ANTISEMITISM.
46:24BUT FOR YOU, THE OTHER REASONS?
46:29KIND OF EXPLAIN THOSE.
46:29ARE THEY JUST AS BAD?
46:30HOW DID WE GET THERE?
46:31>> THEY'RE NOT JUST AS BAD, BUT
46:33THEIR EFFECTS CAN BE JUST AS
46:34TOXIC.
46:34SO IF YOU HAVE PEOPLE SCREAMING
46:37FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA, AND
46:40EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT
46:42RIVER AND WHAT SEA, WHICH WE
46:44FOUND AGAIN AND AGAIN WHEN YOU
46:46ASK THEM, THEY SAY WAIT, THE
46:48NILE?
46:48I DON'T KNOW.
46:52BUT NONETHELESS, THE EFFECT ON
46:54THE JEWISH STUDENTS IS THE SAME.
46:55BECAUSE OF THOSE 200 STUDENTS
46:58MASKED ON THE STEPS OF WAGNER
47:03LIBRARY ARE "FROM THE RIVER TO
47:05THE SEA", YOU DON'T KNOW WHO IS
47:07EXPRESSING GENUINE HATE AND WHO
47:08CAME ALONG BECAUSE THEIR
47:09ROOMMATE SAID COME, IT WILL BE
47:10FUN.
47:13SO THE MOTIVATION MAY BE LESS
47:16POISONOUS, BUT THE EFFECT CAN BE
47:17THE SAME.
47:18>> ANOTHER PART OF YOUR
47:21STATEMENT, YOU SAID "IDEOLOGY
47:23THAT GRIPS FAR TOO MANY OF THE
47:24STUDENTS AND FACULTY, THE
47:26IDEOLOGY THAT WORKS ONLY ALONG
47:33AXISES OF OPPRESSION PLACES
47:34JEWISHS AS OPPRESSORS.
47:36IGNORING JEWISH SUFFERING IS
47:40BELITTLING.
47:41UNSPEAKABLE ATROCITIES IS A VAST
47:42AND CONTINUING CATASTROPHE.
47:44DENYING ISRAEL THE
47:45SELF-DETERMINATION AS A JEWISH
47:46NATION UNCORDED UNTHINKINGLY TO
47:48OTHERS IS ENDEMIC AND EVIL.
47:50I UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT OF THE
47:52HISTORICAL CONTEXT.
47:53AND THE CONCERNS THAT JEWISH
47:57PEOPLE HAVE.
48:00IS THERE A PLACE FOR A
48:03LEGITIMATE CRITICISM OF THE
48:04ACTIONS OF A COUNTRY, ISRAEL,
48:08WITHOUT A NEGATION OF ISRAEL'S
48:13RIGHT TO EXIST OR THE JEWISH
48:15PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO EXIST?
48:16>> ABSOLUTELY.
48:17I CRITICIZE ISRAEL.
48:18I DON'T KNOW ANYONE WHO DOESN'T
48:19CRITICIZE ISRAEL.
48:20BUT EVEN AMONG THOSE WHO LOVE
48:24ISRAEL, ISRAELIS ARE BRUTAL IN
48:26THEIR CRITICISM OF ISRAEL.
48:27WE SAW HUNDREDS OF ISRAELIS IN
48:29THE STREETS PROTESTING BEFORE
48:30OCTOBER 7th, CRITICIZING ISRAEL.
48:32BUT HERE'S WHAT I HAVEN'T HEARD.
48:34I HEAR PEOPLE CRITICIZING
48:35RUSSIA.
48:35I HEAR NO ONE SAY RUSSIA
48:37SHOULDN'T EXIST.
48:38I HEAR PEOPLE CRITICIZE GERMANY
48:39AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR WHEN
48:42THE WORST COUNTRY IN THE HISTORY
48:43OF HUMANITY.
48:44NOBODY SAID THERE SHOULDN'T BE A
48:44GERMANY ANYMORE.
48:47THAT IS RESERVED SOLELY FOR THE
48:50ONE JEWISH STATE IN THE WORLD.
48:52THERE ARE 50 MUSLIM STATES.
48:54I'VE NEVER HEARD SOMEONE SAY ONE
48:55OF THOSE MUSLIM STATES SHOULDN'T
48:57EXIST.
48:58ONLY THE JEWISH STATE SHOULDN'T
48:59EXIST.
48:59AND THAT YOU HAVE TO ASK
49:02YOURSELF WHY IS IT THAT THAT IS
49:04THE ONLY STATE THAT RECEIVES
49:07THAT OVER AND OVER AND OVER
49:10AGAIN.
49:10AND IF IT ISN'T ANTISEMITISM,
49:12THEN IT CONFOUNDS ME WHAT IT
49:14COULD POSSIBLY BE.
49:15>> WHAT IT IS ABOUT OUR CLIMATE
49:16TODAY THAT HAS CREATED THIS KIND
49:18OF CAMPUS CULTURE, I GUESS,
49:22WHERE, YOU KNOW, I SPOKE TO A
49:23STUDENT THAT WAS -- IS ATTENDING
49:26COLUMBIA, AND SHE SAID SHE'S
49:27NEVER FELT SO CONSTRAINED ABOUT
49:29HER VIEWS IN HER ENTIRE ACADEMIC
49:32LIFE.
49:33IF SHE SAYS, FOR EXAMPLE, SHE IS
49:35FOR A CEASEFIRE, SOMETHING THAT
49:37USED TO BE AN INNOCUOUS PHRASE,
49:41NOW SHE GETS CALLED OUT FOR
49:43SAYING SHE IS SUPPORTING HAMAS.
49:44NO.
49:45I JUST WANT PEOPLE TO STOP
49:46FIGHTING.
49:47THAT SO CRAZY?
49:48BUT I DON'T FEEL LIKE I CAN SAY
49:50SOMETHING LIKE THAT BECAUSE OF
49:51SUCH A CHARGED ENVIRONMENT RIGHT
49:52NOW WHERE EVERYTHING I SAY CAN
49:54AND WILL BE USED AGAINST ME.
49:56>> I THINK AT THIS MOMENT,
49:58TENSIONS ARE SO HIGH THAT IT IS
50:01REALLY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO
50:03HAVE GENUINE DIALOGUE ABOUT
50:05THAT.
50:06I SPOKE YESTERDAY AT A
50:12SYNAGOGUE, AND SOMEONE STOOD UP
50:14AND MADE A LONG AND ELOQUENT
50:15PLEA ABOUT WHY HE THOUGHT A
50:16CEASEFIRE WAS JUSTIFIED.
50:17I SAID TO HIM, I APPRECIATE YOUR
50:18POINT OF VIEW AND I THINK IT
50:19COMES FROM A HUMANISTIC PLACE, I
50:21REALLY DO.
50:22AND I WANT TO TELL YOU WHY IT IS
50:23THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU.
50:26AND THAT KIND OF EXCHANGE IS THE
50:28WAY ADULTS SPEAK TO EACH OTHER.
50:30AND WE'RE TRYING TO BRING OUR
50:32STUDENTS TO DO THE SAME.
50:36BUT IT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY WHEN,
50:38YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LINE UP INTO
50:40TEAMS.
50:40LOOK, THIS IS NOT -- BY THE WAY,
50:42THIS IS NOT UNIQUE TO COLLEGE
50:44CAMPUSES.
50:45WHEN I WAS A KID, IF YOU ASKED
50:48PEOPLE, WOULD YOU MARRY SOMEONE
50:49OF ANOTHER RACE, MOST PEOPLE
50:50SAID NO.
50:51AND IF YOU ASKED WOULD YOU MARRY
50:53SOMEONE OF ANOTHER POLITICAL
50:54PARTY, MOST PEOPLE SAID YES.
50:55NOW IT'S EXACTLY REVERSED.
50:57IF YOU ASKED WOULD YOU MARRY
50:58SOMEONE OF ANOTHER RACE, MOST
51:01PEOPLE WOULD SAY YES.
51:01OF ANOTHER POLITICAL PARTY, MOST
51:03PEOPLE WOULD SAY NO.
51:04WHICH TELLS YOU TWO THINGS.
51:05ONE IS PROGRESS CAN BE MADE IN
51:07OUR WORLD, WHICH IS OPTIMISTIC.
51:09AND THE SECOND IS THAT THE
51:12POLARIZATION IS VERY BAD RIGHT
51:14NOW.
51:14AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE
51:16REALLY, REALLY HAVE TO WORK ON
51:18HOW TO HAVE DIALOGUE ACROSS
51:20VIEWS.
51:20>> SO ONE OF THE CONCERNS THAT
51:21CAME OUT FROM THAT TESTIMONY
51:23THAT WAS DELIVERED BY THE
51:25COLLEGE PRESIDENTS WAS ARE WE
51:29ESSENTIALLY ASKING COLLEGES IN
51:31SOME WAY TO CODIFY BOUNDARIES ON
51:34SPEECH?
51:34>> I WOULD SAY THAT, AGAIN, IT'S
51:38NOT ABOUT THE SPEECH IN
51:42PARTICULAR.
51:43IT'S ABOUT CREATING A CLIMATE OF
51:46INTIMIDATION AND FEAR WHICH SOME
51:47OF THE SPEECH IS DESIGNED TO DO.
51:49IT'S ABOUT BULLYING AND
51:51HARASSMENT, NOT ABOUT EXPRESSION
51:52OF OPINION.
51:54AND WHEN YOU SCREAM AT STUDENTS
51:55WHO ARE WALKING THEIR WAY INTO
51:59THE LIBRARY "BABY KILLER" THAT'S
52:02NOT A FUNCTION OF OPINION
52:05EXPRESSION.
52:05IT'S A FUNCTION OF SEEKING TO
52:08INTIMIDATE AND HARASS WITH
52:09SPEECH.
52:09AND THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF
52:11BOUNDARIES THAT I THINK WE'RE
52:13USED TO ACTUALLY IN NORMAL
52:17EVERYDAY DISCOURSE, AND
52:18UNIVERSITIES DO HAVE TO GRAPPLE
52:19WITH THAT.
52:20>> SO WE HAVE SOME APOLOGIES
52:22FROM THESE CAMPUS PRESIDENTS,
52:24BUT WHAT CAN AND WHAT SHOULD
52:27CAMPUSES BE WORKING ON TO CREATE
52:29AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU CAN
52:30HAVE THAT INTELLECTUAL DEBATE
52:33WITHOUT TAKING SPECIFIC
52:36COMMUNITIES AND, YOU KNOW,
52:38ATTACKING THEM?
52:38>> SO I'LL SUGGEST A COUPLE OF
52:40THINGS.
52:41ONE IS THE ENFORCEMENT OF
52:42CURRENT POLICIES, WHICH I THINK
52:45HAVE BEEN UNDERENFORCED BECAUSE
52:47PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF BLOWBACK.
52:52THE SECOND IS TO EDUCATE PEOPLE
52:54ABOUT THE HISTORY OF JUST AZHAR
52:58VARD DID WITH ITS LONG RACISM
53:00PROJECT, TO DO THAT WITH THE
53:03ANTISEMITISM.
53:04BECAUSE THE HATRED OF THE JEW
53:05STANDS IN THE CENTER OF WESTERN
53:08CIVILIZATION.
53:09IT'S NOT PERIPHERAL TO IT.
53:10AND WE NEED TO DEAL WITH THAT
53:11AND THE PLACE OF JEWS IN THE
53:12CREATION OF OUR CIVILIZATION.
53:14AND I WOULD SAY THIRD, WE NEED
53:18SERIOUS SUSTAINED AND IMMEDIATE
53:19TRAINING IN WHAT WE'VE BEEN
53:21TALKING ABOUT, WHICH IS HOW TO
53:24DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE ELSE
53:26WITHOUT SCREAMING, THREATENING,
53:29SHOUTING, IN OTHER WORDS, CIVIL
53:29DISCOURSE.
53:31>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU
53:32CALL FOR AT THE END OF YOUR
53:36RESIGNATION STATEMENT, "WE ARE
53:37NOW IN A PERIOD WHERE JEWS
53:39AROUND THE WORLD ARE CELEBRATING
53:42HANUKKAH, AND YOU ENCOURAGE
53:43PEOPLE TO MAKE A CHOICE TO BRING
53:45LIGHT INTO THE WORLD.
53:49THIS IS A TIME WHEN IT SEEMS
53:51LIKE WE CAN USE A LOT OF LIGHT,
53:53NOT JUST ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES,
53:55BUT GIVEN WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING
53:56ON THE PLANET TODAY.
53:57HOW DO WE DO THAT?
53:59WHAT'S AN EASY PRESCRIPTION FOR
54:01SOMEONE WATCHING THIS PROGRAM
54:02WHEREVER THEY ARE IN THE WORLD
54:03TO TRY TO BRING LIGHT INTO THE
54:04SITUATION?
54:06>> I THINK YOU BRING LIGHT,
54:08FIRST OF ALL, BY LISTENING,
54:10GENUINELY LISTENING TO THE
54:11OTHER, BY RESPONDING WITH
54:13DECENCY, WITH KINDNESS, WITH
54:15RESPECT, WITH GOODNESS.
54:19AND ALSO AS BEEN TRUE FOR
54:22MILLIONS OF YEARS, YOU BRING
54:24LIGHT WITH LOVE.
54:27AND I THINK THAT BRINGING LOVE
54:28TO THE WORLD AND LIGHT TO THE
54:31WORLD IS THE TASK OF EVERY FATE.
54:37AND I WISH THAT IT WERE MORE
54:40MANIFEST ON OUR CAMPUSES AND IN
54:41OUR COUNTRY.
54:42AND AS THIS NEW YEAR IS ABOUT TO
54:44BEGIN AND WE'RE CELEBRATING
54:46HANUKKAH, I AM HOPEFUL THAT
54:48MAYBE THE FUTURE WILL BE A
54:49LITTLE BRIGHTER THAN THIS PAST.
54:52>> RABBI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
54:54JOINING US.
54:55>> THANK YOU.
54:56>>> EVERY NIGHT HERE, WE COMMIT
54:58TO FOSTERING DIALOGUE.
55:01AND FINALLY, YOU KNOW THAT IT'S
55:04HOLIDAY SEASON WHEN ALICIA KEYS
55:06MAKES A SURPRISE APPEARANCE AT
55:07ONE OF EURO'S BUSIEST TRAIN
55:11STATIONS.
55:11SHE SERENADED FANS ON A PUBLIC
55:13PIANO DONATED BY ELTON JOHN TO
55:16LONDON'S ST. PANCREAS STATION.
55:18HERE IS A BIT OF THAT IMPROMPTU
55:21CONCERT.
55:22♪ NO ONE, NO ONE, NO ONE CAN GET
55:28IN THE LOVE OF WHAT I'M
55:29FEELING ♪
55:32♪ NO ONE, NO ONE, NO ONE CAN GET
55:38IN THE WAY OF WHAT I'M FEEL FOR
55:41YOU ♪
55:42>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM
55:44TONIGHT.
55:44IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S
55:46COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP
55:48FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT
55:52PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
55:52THANKS FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US
55:53AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.