For this week's In Conversation, NME sat down with Beth Ditto from The Gossip to discuss the bands break up, working with Rick Rubin in his Hawaii studio, soundtracking cult show 'Skins', and new album 'Real Power'
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00:00 When I heard what the name of the show was and people were talking about it,
00:02 I lost my shit. Because skins meant skinhead. And I was like, what the fuck?
00:08 I was just like, what? But then I learned what it meant here.
00:12 So it's like, oh, lots of translation.
00:15 Yes, the ciggy papers. But yeah, so you thought it was going to be used for like a right wing
00:19 fascist show.
00:19 I didn't know. The first thing I thought was like, who the fuck thought of this?
00:23 Hi, my name's Alex. I'm with Enemy for an in conversation series and I'm joined today
00:34 by Beth Ditto from The Gossip. Hello. How are you going?
00:38 I'm good. How are you?
00:40 I'm good. Thank you. What have you been up to today?
00:41 Oh, nothing. I woke up. I woke up. I woke up.
00:46 You woke up.
00:46 And I got my hair and makeup done.
00:47 Then I sat out to date. I drank some Limp Zip.
00:52 Yes.
00:52 And then, yeah, that's what I did.
00:55 So we're here today to talk all about your new album.
00:58 Yeah.
00:59 How do you feel?
01:00 I'm good. I feel good about it. It's really old. So it's like hard to remember sometimes.
01:04 Like what was going like, I'll be like, oh, yeah, that. Yeah, it's funny. It's like records
01:10 are always so funny because like, I don't really pay attention to them. So I'm like,
01:15 I don't know. But yeah, so it's really funny. It's like all of a sudden it was sitting on
01:18 the shelf for a long time. And then all of a sudden it's like and now I'm just it was just
01:22 overnight. It was just out, you know what I mean?
01:25 Take me back to when you first decided you want to make this album.
01:29 Well, I was doing a record with Rick Rubin in Hawaii. Ooh, la la. It was very fancy,
01:36 but not fancy. It sounds fancy, but it felt like being on a homestead.
01:40 It was really cute and charming. It's like it's hard to explain. But it was like there
01:44 was like the electricity would go out a lot and we'd have to like run off the generator.
01:48 And then there wasn't really a vocal booth. We had to make like build one that was kind of like a
01:52 makeshift one. It's like not what you would think. Like it's not it doesn't it's not what you think
01:58 if it wasn't like this grand studio. So it was really cool that way, like piecework and stuff.
02:03 And we had to make things as we go, like build them as we go. But I really wanted to make
02:07 and I wanted Nathan to play on the on that record because I was going to do it myself.
02:12 I was going to do a solo record. And then there was just one day Nathan was playing something
02:18 and I said I looked at Rick and I was like, well, I said, I don't know. I can't decide if this should
02:23 be a best record or a gossip record. And he was just like, it should be a gossip record, you know?
02:29 Yeah. And I was like, OK. I mean, if Nathan went on it, it would have been different. But
02:33 and then we just were like, OK. And that was it. I mean, that's the beauty of like
02:38 working with people you've known for so long. Yeah. There's no like glamorous story. It's just
02:43 like you just go, OK. Like it was just like when we broke up or whatever. We were just like, OK.
02:50 It's just like there's no falling out or something. And Nathan was just like, all right. It's like it
02:55 just didn't there's no like I mean, Hannah, too. But there's a lot. Nathan and I have just like a
03:01 really deep history. Yeah. We grew up together, you know? Yeah. And so like, I wish, you know,
03:07 that's it. There's no there's no like this. There's not a very big. What do you call it?
03:12 There's no drama. Yeah. Gossip. Yeah. That's the thing about like we have our own things,
03:17 like everybody's got their own dumb personalities. But like there's not a lot of drama. There's not
03:23 a lot of you know, and if there is, it's like I try not to, you know, like feed it, you know.
03:29 So what was the reasons that you and Gossip broke up in the first place then?
03:34 It got really hard to get people to care about it. OK. You know, I think I think that's the thing
03:43 that when you are together, I mean, there's a lot of stuff to like people were going through
03:49 their own things and like trying to find, you know, like we were all it's like growing up
03:56 and growing up together and being inseparable. And like it's hard to change and become a person
04:01 on your own, especially when you just like when you're in it, when you're in a creative
04:05 relationship like a band. This is so you'll hear all the time, but like cliche, I guess. But like
04:12 bands do feel like marriages. They feel like, you know, like Gossip is the longest relationship I've
04:17 ever had and like the longest job I've ever had. And it's the it's the reason why I've ever
04:23 traveled or ever made, you know, like it was the only band I was ever in and everything. So like
04:30 it's hard to like let yourself grow and be independent. And like you really become
04:35 codependent on people because everything that you do is based on other people. And it's just like
04:41 we needed I think we needed space really to like deal with our shit or whatever it was.
04:48 I really hear that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. What did you learn about yourself then in
04:52 the time off from Gossip? What did I learn about myself? You came out with a solo record as well,
04:57 didn't you? I did. Yeah, it was really fun. See, that was cool because it goes back to that thing
05:02 where it's like if you get married right out of high school or you marry your high school
05:06 sweetheart or something that, you know, because Gossip has been a band since I was 18. And so like
05:12 it was good to like prove to myself that I could do it. I think even with the kind of like
05:21 exposure to like feminism that I had and punk rock feminism and like being, you know, like
05:25 and the dynamics that creates of like being in a band and being, you know, and like
05:30 like musicians feeling empowered and women and like what it's like to be a woman in a band
05:36 and like owning like like with a kind of like your space and music and like,
05:42 like just keep it simple. It's like with all the Riot Grrrl punk rock feminism and like all
05:47 of these things, it's funny because I never realized like that I was a pivotal part of Gossip,
05:53 you know, like I was like, I don't know, like I couldn't do it without Nathan, you know, I couldn't
05:58 like like it was always because he was so great and he is so great. And I feel like I'm at my
06:03 best when he's at his best. Yeah. And I think that's the other thing about now is I feel like
06:08 we're both in good places. And when you're in a band, people have expectations of you,
06:12 and especially if you get attention for something and they start to associate you
06:16 with a certain thing. And then, yeah, there's all this like thing about like,
06:19 oh, are you going to make another record? Or is it going to be is it going to be successful or
06:24 whatever? And when you're in a band and you don't really care and you just want to make music or
06:29 it's nice to take a big break, but you don't really get to do that because there's pressure
06:34 on you to keep making music and to make it relevant or make it cool or make it, you know,
06:38 make people money. And it's just it's boring and not fun. It's like you need some space.
06:44 Coming into this new record, then how did you give yourself a space to create whatever music
06:51 you wanted? I think letting him do his thing without judgment. You know, I think he needed
06:56 to find some peace. Like he was going through a lot of stuff and I was going through a lot of stuff
07:02 and like just like life and being it gets complicated when you are feel like you are
07:10 married to something or like, you know, like you have an obligation. And yeah, I think it was
07:15 important that we both took time away and kind of got in touch with ourselves again and like why we
07:20 love each other and why we love to do making music together. You know, I was going to say it sounds
07:27 like around the time of making this record, you had two very similar situations. You had the
07:31 breakup with Nathan and then you went through your own divorce. Yeah, exactly. So did you kind of
07:37 find parallels between those two situations and did they come together to create this music that
07:40 you're talking about now? Yeah, I think. Yeah, of course. It's like you can't separate them when
07:45 you go through a divorce and like especially because she and I were friends for so long.
07:49 We were best friends. Yeah. And all of a sudden that person's gone. And like, you know, it's kind
07:53 of it's really that's the saddest part of it is that like that whole history is gone. Like if
07:58 you're on the term that we are like we don't speak. So like it's like, oh, that sucks. It
08:03 really makes you miss like, you know, you go through it. You go through these cycles in life
08:08 where you start you every few years, I think, where you start to like really start to look at
08:13 who your friends are and who what trust really means to you and like what you need out of
08:18 a community or relationship or and it just makes you like realize it made me realize how special
08:24 Nathan and I were and like how like, you know, even if other people don't see it, you know,
08:29 but like we get it. We speak a language all our own, you know, and it's beautiful because
08:34 we will not talk for months and like we'll just text each other like stupid shit. And that's
08:42 Nathan's love language is jokes like, you know, he's thinking about you and he just sends you the
08:47 dumbest shit. Oh, it's awesome. It's great. And like I was always like people don't always
08:52 understand that about him. I think he's a very, very weird person. But like, I mean,
08:59 a naturally weird person. But that's great. You know, put that right in heaven. Yeah. I was always
09:05 like I was always the normal person. You know, like I could talk to people like Nathan. I've
09:12 seen him do the most hilarious shit. Like what? Go ahead. Okay. Spurs. Yeah. Should I tell the
09:18 story? No. Okay. So this is like Nathan's brain. He does not mean to hurt people's feelings. He
09:25 just will say whatever. So this one time, I don't remember who we were with, but there was like
09:32 label people. And I think it was some German TV show or something that Lenny Kravitz had come
09:39 backstage and we were talking and you know, like Nathan, some of my favorite Nathan stories of all
09:44 time. Nathan barged through the door, saw Lenny Kravitz and said, Oh, I thought you said Lemmy.
09:51 And walked out. That really happened. And I was like, Oh my God.
10:00 How did Lenny, how did he react? I don't think he even realized what happened. And I was like,
10:05 this is the most, he just does shit like that. Like I can't even explain it. Like he's like,
10:12 he's just that kind of person. Like he just says shit. He's gotten better about it. I mean,
10:18 I don't want to say it's like, who cares, you know, but it was so fucking funny. That kind of
10:22 energy I miss too. Cause he and I really like when things, we don't, we really thrive well in chaos.
10:28 And I miss that. You know? Exactly. I can imagine. And the pandemic must have been
10:33 really difficult for you guys then because how much chaos can you really, well, yeah.
10:38 Are you kidding me? I know it was, isn't it funny? Cause it was like everyday bursts of chaos,
10:44 like anxiety. But you know, it was, it was like, it was, I was talking to somebody last night and
10:50 we were like both tour for a living. And he was like, at first I was like, this is great. So I
10:55 was like, I know you've never been home for that long. And then it was like, wow. Then it just got
11:00 more worrisome because it was just like, we are not going to have a living when we get out of it.
11:05 It's like, nobody knew how the world was going to look. I mean, and the way that if like,
11:09 if are people going to go on tour or not, it's pretty, it's like the least of anybody's worries,
11:13 you know? So like, yeah, that was pretty crazy. But I think Nathan was in lockdown in Arkansas
11:19 and I don't think they, I don't think Arkansas really even took it that seriously. Like I was
11:24 in Portland and like, it was complete, it was completely different world. But like, yeah,
11:29 it was wild. God, that was wild. But it was, it was hard to come out of. I had a really hard time
11:34 coming out of it. Yeah. I really had a hard time coming out of it. Yeah. But you've had such a
11:38 storied relationship with the UK over your career, to be honest. Especially because like, Standing
11:42 in the Way of Control, the soundtrack to one of our most beloved, you know, TV shows. I know. I've
11:47 never seen that TV show. Have you not? Uh-uh. Fair enough. I mean, I guess you don't have to. I mean,
11:51 well. Do you plan on seeing it? No, probably not. Just because I just, I don't watch that kind of
11:58 TV. Not because I'm too highbrow, believe me. What kind of stuff do you watch? What do I watch?
12:04 Oh my God. I watch a lot of The Office. I am that person. Yeah. I'm one of those people that
12:08 quote The Office a lot. I could win a trivia game about it. I'm guessing it's the US version. I watch
12:14 both. Both? But there's not enough of the UK version. Okay. Do you have a preference? America.
12:19 But it's because I have the nostalgia connected to it. That makes sense. Yeah. But I also heard
12:25 that Gossip weren't actually given permission to use the song Standing in the Way of Control for
12:31 the TV show. It's the Skins. I didn't. The people that we work for, or that don't work for, but the
12:37 person who owned the label got it on to the TV show. And when we heard what the name, when I
12:44 heard what the name of the show was and people were talking about it, I lost my shit. Because
12:49 Skins meant skinhead. And I was like, what the fuck? I was just like, what? But then I learned
12:58 what it meant here. So I was like, oh, lost the translation. It's the papers. Yeah, it's the
13:02 Siggy papers. So you thought it was going to be used for a right-wing fascist show. I didn't know.
13:06 The first thing I thought was like, who the fuck thought of this? Whose idea is that? It freaked
13:12 me out. I was so mad. I was livid. A bunch of teenagers. I know, exactly. I was like,
13:18 oh, it's a teenage drama. I was like, I thought, what? Especially because the whole song is about,
13:21 you know, like standing up to the government. It must be like, you didn't get the point.
13:26 I'm like, who did this? Amidst all of this chaos, amidst all of your divorce,
13:31 your breakup, how did you find power within yourself to push through?
13:34 Um, I didn't. I still don't think I have, actually. Um,
13:40 it was called Real Power because it was a song called Real Power. I didn't really want the
13:46 record to be called that. It was like, we needed a name. They needed a name and they needed one
13:52 really fast. And I didn't feel like me and Nathan were just like, oh my God, I don't know, Real
13:58 Power, I guess. And everybody was like, yeah, that's good. And I was like, I mean, it's fine,
14:03 but it's not, it's not what I wanted it to be. I still not know what I would have wanted it to be.
14:07 So what does the album represent and mean to you then if it's not Real Power?
14:11 I don't know. I wanted to call it Act of God because there's a song called Act of God.
14:15 I didn't think about it until it was too late. And I was like, God, literally I was peeing.
14:20 I remember I was on the toilet. I was like, fucking Act of God, Act of God. And I got out
14:26 of the bathroom and I texted Nathan. I was like, Nathan, is it too late? He was like,
14:30 oh, he's like, that's really good. He's like, is it too late? And I was like, I don't know.
14:33 Then we had this big conversation. He was like, but is it culturally insensitive given the way
14:38 that things are going in the world today? And I was like, I don't think it's insensitive.
14:44 And I think Nathan is religious and I have net zero religion. So I was just like,
14:50 I wonder if that is what Nathan's a little bit like. I don't know.
14:54 I want to get onto that topic actually, because the last time that you spoke about Gossip As Well,
14:59 it came at a time that you found out that Nathan was a born again Christian and moved back to
15:03 Arkansas and knew yourself have a bit more of a complicated relationship with religion. So
15:07 how did you find navigating that particular sort of relationship?
15:11 Oh, I had to let it go. And I had to see that there's a lot of people that believe in God.
15:17 I don't get it. It doesn't make sense to me at all, but I understand needing it and I understand
15:28 growing up with it. I'm always really jealous and have a lot of envy for people who have somewhere
15:33 to put all of their worry and faith. But I also don't have to worry about the other stuff that
15:42 comes with it too, which is awesome and free. But it's hard because of the connotations that
15:48 come with Christianity. But it's Nathan's thing. And if it helped him get through things,
15:54 I think that's what he needed. That's really beautiful.
15:57 It kind of sounds like you're able to see more of Nathan as a person now.
16:02 Yeah.
16:03 Yeah. It kind of helped that.
16:04 Yeah. And also his life exists outside of me and this. I think that was the thing. It was like,
16:10 no matter what, we have such a really long, complicated friendship. I know it's really
16:24 important to both of us. Our lives weren't the same when we weren't in them. But at the same
16:31 time, it was the same. It's weird. It's like time never goes by with the two of us.
16:36 I think that's the best case scenario when you're making music though.
16:40 I know.
16:41 I wanted to quickly say as well, in the past you've said a good producer is like a good therapist and
16:46 Rick is an amazing therapist. Does that still hold true when you were making the album?
16:51 Yeah. Oh my God, Rick.
16:52 Especially because there's a lot of things that he needs to therapize at the minute.
16:55 What do you mean? Oh, the world.
16:56 Yeah.
16:57 You know what's funny? That kind of thing is not his vibe.
17:04 Okay.
17:04 It's his personal thing. It's weird. People like to be like, "Oh, he's like a guru." And I'm like,
17:10 yes. I think to some people he would be, but it doesn't feel like that to me. It feels more like,
17:16 I don't know. He has a very good understanding of people. And to me, he sees what
17:25 their potential is. He has good intuition. He's a Pisces. He has really good intuition.
17:33 And I think for better or worse, whatever it is, it's just he has a strong opinion
17:40 and a strong vision. But with Rick, I can't explain it. I don't want people to get the
17:47 wrong idea about him sometimes. Because I don't know what the right word is, but therapist is good.
17:53 I went to this psychiatrist and she was so expensive, ridiculously expensive. And
18:02 she didn't take insurance, was quarantined. I was really, really not doing okay.
18:09 She put me on so much medicine. And I was in Hawaii with Rick.
18:16 There's always a yoga ball around for some reason in the studio. It's a real thing. And
18:23 I was sitting on the yoga ball. I don't even know why. And I looked at him and he was like,
18:28 "What is going on with you?" And I was like, "What do you mean?" He was like, "You are not
18:35 yourself. Something is different." And I was like, "Actually, I've gotten all this medicine." And he
18:41 was like, "I don't think that this is what is really going on with you." And he was like,
18:49 "If I make you an appointment with a different doctor, for real, if I make an appointment with
18:54 a different doctor, will you talk to them and just get a second opinion?" Because I felt like
19:00 that was the thing. I was like, "I don't know where to go. I don't know where to start." And
19:03 he was like, "If I can help you, do you need help? And if you want help, will you take it?"
19:08 And I was like, "Absolutely." And that doctor got me off everything and was like, "This is crazy."
19:14 And I was on so much of this one kind of antidepressant that you weren't supposed to be on
19:21 that high of a dose. It was crazy. But Rick did that, that kind of thing. There's a loving care
19:28 about him. That's what it is. People say guru, but for me, there is more of love. I feel a lot
19:34 of love from him and I love him very much. And then what's your favorite song off the record?
19:41 What was the most fun to make? My favorite song on the record is probably
19:47 "Peace and Quiet." It's a slow song. I really like sad songs. They're the easiest to write
19:56 because they just... But yeah, that's my favorite song. But that's always me. I think when you're
20:04 a singer, you're like, "I get to sing in that song." I like that song a lot.
20:10 I can tell that it seems like a lot of the country influences from your solo album seem to carry over
20:15 on. That's Nathan. That was Nathan. Nathan has gone through this really twangy country phase for
20:25 years now. But it suits you, though. It really suits you. Thank you. That's sweet. I think it's
20:32 good. I think we both really like to do that. And that's the other thing. It's nice to just
20:38 make a record and not even think about it. You know what I mean? So it was like that. We're not
20:44 a lot of people who put a lot of thought into it. I mean, obviously, I was like, "We're never going
20:49 to get to name this record." But I think it's also funny because we're seeing a huge return back to
20:55 what people call the indie sleaze. Oh my God! It's like the era that you grew up in. That's
20:59 the one you dominated. How do you feel about it? Why are people coming back to it?
21:03 Because it's been 20 years. And you were a baby. I was. And so that's the way things work out.
21:12 Enough time has gone by that it's nostalgic. It's a time that people weren't alive for.
21:19 Even my parents were listening. You know what I mean? It's really sweet, I think. It's really,
21:26 really awesome to be 42 and see kids the way that I was doing. I do know the way I was listening
21:37 in the '90s, the way that we were listening to punk bands from the '70s. There was a big
21:42 resurgence of the raincoats and the slits and that kind of stuff. I'm just like, "Wow, this is not
21:48 that we are like the raincoats and the slits, please. I know we're not." But that much time
21:53 and to see it come full circle is really cool. Especially because Decepticon went viral on TikTok
21:58 and I know you're good friends with the two of them as well, right? It must have been so amazing
22:02 to watch as a friend. It's definitely another thing too, because I have a lot of nieces and
22:04 nephews, teenagers. It's really been so cool. When my niece came to visit, I could hear her
22:13 on TikTok and songs that were on there. And I was like, "Oh my God, that's so cool."
22:19 It gets so easy to stumble on something cool now. I think that's the best.
22:23 I just want to ask one more question. Throughout your career, you have fought really hard for
22:29 feminism and for queer rights and for activism. I would have fought harder. I could have fought
22:34 harder. Really? Why do you say that? You appeared naked on the cover of NME in 2008. That is
22:40 fighting pretty damn hard, I would say. That's pretty wild, isn't it?
22:44 Yeah. Being naked's not that hard for me. I don't know what it is.
22:50 But you say you could have fought harder. How come?
22:51 Oh, I don't know. I think I could have taken time out and learned more,
22:55 maybe. But we all could have.
22:57 How do you think people can be the best punk that they can be nowadays in 2023?
23:02 Best punk?
23:03 Yeah.
23:03 I don't know if you can be the best punk. I don't think there's such a thing. It's such a-
23:08 Not the best punk, but how can people be truly punk nowadays, do you think?
23:14 I don't think there's an answer.
23:16 Yeah?
23:16 I don't. It's so funny you say that because I was just talking to somebody I've known for a
23:20 long time last night. We're the same age. She just got a real job. She has a daughter. I think
23:27 she's seven now. I was asking her because I heard she got this job that's a real job. Before, she
23:33 was a creative consultant. But now she's nine to five and kind of. I was like, "So how does it feel
23:39 to be working that kind of work?" She was like, "I feel like getting up early in the morning is
23:45 the punkest thing I've ever done." That was exactly her words. I was like, "Yeah, that's so cool."
23:51 I don't know. I think that's the thing. You know it when you see it, and you know it's not when
24:00 you see it. You know what I mean? I had a friend explain to me one time,
24:04 it's just the way I like to put things. It's a good meter to suss things out.
24:10 We were talking about roller skates or something, or roller blades. He was like, "Oh God,
24:16 roller blades." I was like, "Why do people hate them so much?" He's like, "They're not punk."
24:21 I was like, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Beth, some things just aren't punk."
24:28 He is still super punk. He was like, "Roller blades, not punk. Roller skates,
24:35 punk." I was like, "I'm forever going to ask myself, is this roller blades or is this roller
24:42 skates? Because it works." You just know when you see it. Who do you think is exemplary of
24:49 punk philosophy nowadays? I always talk about her. I think Fever Ray is really punk. It's cool to see
25:01 someone, I feel like, keep transforming constantly and evolving. It's been really interesting to see
25:09 that, and from somebody who's my age. I think as well, another thing I want to ask quickly
25:15 is that queer culture as well has changed so much since you guys were kicking around.
25:19 What do you think has been the biggest change for you coming now into culture nowadays,
25:25 being a queer person? It's really incredible to see things be accessible, like resources,
25:34 community. There's a way to reach out and be connected.
25:44 It's interesting to see so much backlash because it felt like a more safe world for queers for a
25:54 bit. Not for every queer, of course. I guess on that question, what it makes me think is,
26:00 right now, we're seeing a big pushback. Trans people especially.
26:09 I don't understand how fucking hard it is and how it divides queer people. Honestly,
26:19 nobody I know. I hear of TERFs and weird shit like that, and I'm like, "I don't know any of
26:27 them, and I don't want to be friends with them. Sorry." Because I don't understand why you would
26:33 make a choice to just be vocal about being such a shitty person. I do not understand it.
26:44 What are you defending? Not me. I'm a cis woman. I'm glad they've got my back. I don't feel
26:54 protected by them or whatever. They feel threatened for whatever reason.
26:57 It's changed. I think that's what happens sometimes. I'll tell you this too. When you
27:01 get older in activism or whatever it is, you see it a lot in pop culture. 20 years ago,
27:11 we were like, "Oh my God, they're fucking revolutionary." Then they get older, and then
27:15 the language changes, the movement changes, because that's what progress is. It's constant
27:21 change. Then they feel shut out, and they are afraid to look inside themselves and just ask
27:28 questions and be wrong because they don't understand it. It's like you support gay marriage,
27:34 but you don't understand trans equality or just whatever it is, because they are so afraid of
27:43 saying, "I don't get it. I don't understand, and somebody tell me." Instead, they buckle down
27:50 against it. It's their own bullshit. It's their own ego. It's so annoying. It happens so much
27:58 when people get older who were so cool, and then all of a sudden, they're just idiots and assholes.
28:04 They end up being exactly what they were afraid of being because they're afraid to
28:13 ask. They are threatened by the idea that they don't know, and they can't accept that.
28:20 It sounds like the most punk thing you can do nowadays is just to be open and ask questions.
28:24 Not everybody, nobody expects people to know everything, and that's okay. It's all right.
28:34 There you go. Thank you very much for speaking to me, Beth. I really appreciate your insight.
28:38 It's so lovely to hear from you. Thank you.
28:40 I'm so glad Gotham's reunited. Yeah. Give me chills. Thank you. No worries. Thank you so much.
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