Amanpour & Co. - December 15, 2023
Nivine Sandouka, regional chief of staff with the Alliance for Middle East Peace, and former Knesset member Ksenia Svetlova, who leads an organization which is a member of Nivine’s alliance, join the show. Actor Gael García Bernal on his new film “Cassandro” about a gay Mexican wrestler. Washington Post reporters Samuel Oakford and Shane Harris on the new Frontline documentary “The Discord Leaks.”
Transcript
00:04WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."
00:06HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
00:07THE U.S. UPS ITS PRESSURE ON
00:09ISRAEL TO PROTECT CIVILIAN
00:10LIVES.
00:11I GET A REPORT ON THE GROWING
00:13DESPAIR IN GAZA.
00:13AND TALK TO NOT A ISRAELI
00:16ANALYST AND PALESTINIAN ACTIVIST
00:17ABOUT THE HARD WORK OF MAKING
00:20PEACE.
00:20THEN CASSANDRO JOINS ME ON HIS
00:24TRANSFORMATION TO THE GAY
00:27WRESTLER WHO CHANGED LUCHA.
00:30PLUS THE "WASHINGTON POST"
00:33REPORTERS TALK ABOUT THE MOST
00:39SIGNIFICANT LEAKS IN HISTORY.
00:47>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE
00:48POSSIBLE BY --
00:50THE ANDERSON FAMILY FUND.
00:53JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
00:56CANDACE KING WEIR.
00:57THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA
01:01AND MICKI STRAUSS.
01:06SETON, CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
01:09COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL
01:11DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
01:14BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
01:17ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY
01:18THESE FUNDERS AND BY
01:19CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS
01:20STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU,
01:22THANK YOU.
01:27>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,
01:29EVERYONE.
01:29I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR
01:32CHRISTIANE AMMANPOUR.
01:35PRESIDENT BIDEN'S LATEST MESSAGE
01:36TO PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN
01:38NETANYAHU, A CLEAR SIGN HE'S
01:40GROWING MORE AND MORE VOCAL AND
01:42B THE MOUNTING CIVILIAN DEATH
01:43TOLL.
01:44TO DRIVE HOME THE URGENCY, THE
01:46NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER JAKE
01:48SULLIVAN WAS DISPATCHED TO THE
01:49REGION TASKED WITH WALKING THAT
01:51TRICKY LINE OF SUPPORTING ITS
01:52ALLY ISRAEL, BUT ALSO TRYING TO
01:56REIN IT IN.
01:57>> WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A
01:58HIGH INTENSITY PHASE WITH
02:01MILITARY OPERATIONS IN BOTH THE
02:02NORTHERN HALF AND THE SOUTHERN
02:04HALF OF GAZA.
02:06BUT THERE WILL BE A TRANSITION
02:08TO ANOTHER PHASE OF THIS WAR.
02:10ONE THAT IS FOCUSED IN MORE
02:12PRECISE WAYS IN TARGETING THE
02:14LEADERSHIP.
02:14WE'RE NOT HERE TO TELL ANYBODY,
02:16YOU MUST DO X, YOU MUST DO Y.
02:19WE ARE HERE TO SAY THIS IS OUR
02:20PERSPECTIVE AS YOUR PARTNER AND
02:22FRIEND.
02:22THIS IS WHAT WE BELIEVE IS THE
02:23BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE YOUR
02:25TACTICAL AND STRATEGIC GOALS.
02:26>> WHILE WASHINGTON IS EAGER TO
02:27SEE A MORE PRECISE PHASE OF THE
02:30WAR, THERE IS NO TELLING WHEN
02:31THAT COULD BE.
02:32IN GAZA, SHEER AGONY AND
02:35HOPELESSNESS ARE BURSTING INTO
02:37PLAIN VIEW AS PARENTS STRUGGLE
02:37TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN.
02:42JOMANA KARADSHEH BRINGS US THIS
02:43REPORT AND A WARNING, SOME OF
02:44THESE IMAGES ARE GRAPHIC.
02:52>> Reporter: THESE ARE THE
02:53DESPERATE CRIES OF A FATHER LEFT
02:55WITH NOTHING BUT HIS VOICE.
02:57A FATHER WHO CAN NO LONGER
02:59PROTECT HIS THREE VULNERABLE
03:00CHILDREN.
03:04I CAN'T SURVIVE.
03:05THEY DESTROYED MY HOUSE, HE
03:06SAYS.
03:07I CAN'T GET FOOD.
03:07I HAVE NO ONE TO SUPPORT ME.
03:09I SPEND THE NIGHT MOVING FROM
03:12TENT TO TENT.
03:13FOR MORE THAN 60 DAYS, HE'S
03:16TRIED TO STAY STRONG.
03:17UNTIL HE COULD NO MORE.
03:21HIS DISABLED CHILDREN HOMELESS,
03:23HUNGRY, HURTING FROM GAZA'S WAR.
03:27WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOUR CHILD
03:29NEEDS YOU?
03:30WHEN YOU HAVE GOT NOTHING LEFT
03:32TO GIVE.
03:33HAVE MERCY ON US, HE SAYS.
03:38NO MERCY FOR THE PEOPLE OF THIS
03:40BESIEGED LAND, IT SEEMS.
03:43BRING A BLESSING, THEY SAY.
03:45NOW IT ONLY BRINGS MORE DESPAIR.
03:48FOR THOSE FORCED OUT OF THEIR
03:50HOMES, LIFE HAS BECOME THIS
03:52MISERABLE EXISTENCE AS THE
03:56FLOODS IN THE CAMPS AND THE
03:58HARSH WINTER IS ONLY JUST
04:02BEGINNING.
04:02SHE SHOWS US THE TINY TENT SHE
04:04LIVES IN WITH 11 OTHERS, HER TWO
04:06DAUGHTERS AND GRANDCHILDREN.
04:07SHE SPENT THE NIGHT TRYING TO
04:09CATCH THE RAIN THATDRIPPED
04:13THROUGH THEIR ROOF IN THE FLIMSY
04:15SHELTER.
04:15THIS IS HUMILIATION, SHE SAYS.
04:17I HAVE THESE CHILDREN WITHOUT A
04:19FATHER.
04:19I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE.
04:21EVEN CHILDREN NOW HATE LIFE, SHE
04:25SAYS.
04:25IT'S JUST TOO MUCH FOR PARENTS
04:27TO BEAR WHEN YOU CANNOT EVEN
04:29KEEP YOUR CHILDREN DRY, WARM AND
04:31CLEAN AS DISEASES START TO
04:33SPREAD AND THE AID THEY SO BADLY
04:35NEED, NOW A WEAPON IN THIS WAR.
04:41I WANT TO PROTECT MY CHILDREN,
04:42THIS MOTHER SAYS.
04:43THE BOMBINGS AND DESTRUCTION ARE
04:45NOT ENOUGH.
04:46ON TOP OF THAT, WE HAVE THE
04:48RAIN, COLD, AND ILLNESSES.
04:52TO BE A PARENT IN GAZA IS A
04:55BLESSING TURNED INTO TORTURE FOR
04:56THOSE WHO NO LONGER WONDER IF
04:58BUT HOW THEY AND THEIR CHILDREN
04:59WILL DIE.
05:07HE SAYS HE WAS SITTING, THINKING
05:09OF HOW HE'LL FEED HIS CHILDREN
05:12WHEN AN AIRSTRIKE HITS.
05:13WHERE DO I TAKE MY CHILDREN, HE
05:16SAYS.
05:16I FLED AND CAME HERE TO DIE.
05:18I GAVE MY CHILDREN MY
05:19EVERYTHING.
05:20WHO WILL TAKE CARE OF THEM IF I
05:21DIE?
05:24LIKE MANY IN GAZA, IT'S NOT ONLY
05:26ISRAEL THEY BLAME.
05:27THEY WANT HAMAS TO STOP A WAR
05:30FOR WHICH THEY PAID THE PRICE.
05:32ABANDONED, ALONE AS THE WORLD
05:33WON'T STOP THEIR PAIN.
05:366-YEAR-OLD LANA WAS UNDER THE
05:38RUBBLE OF HER HOME FOR THREE
05:40DAYS.
05:40MOMMY AND DADDY ARE UNDERNEATH
05:43IT, SHE SAYS.
05:44I JUST WANT MAMA.
05:48I WANT BABA.
05:49I WANT MY FAMILY, SHE CRIES.
05:51TO BE A PARENT IN GAZA IS TO
05:52LIVE IN THE FEAR OF THIS.
05:54THAT YOU NO LONGER ARE THERE
05:55WHEN THEY NEED YOU THE MOST.
05:59>> SO DIFFICULT TO WATCH.
06:02AS FIGHTING CONTINUES IN GAZA,
06:03THE ULTIMATE IMPACT OF THE WAR
06:05ON MIDDLE EAST POLITICS IS
06:06UNCLEAR.
06:07THE FAILURES OF CURRENT LEADERS
06:09ARE MANIFEST.
06:10WILL THERE BE A CHALG OF THE OLD
06:13GUARD?
06:14ISRAEL PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN
06:14NETANYAHU IS LOSING POPULARITY.
06:16IN THE WEST BANK, ACCORDING TO
06:19PSR POLLING, PUBLIC OPINION IS
06:20TURNING SHARPLY AGAINST
06:22PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT MAHMOUD
06:24ABBAS AND SUPPORT FOR HAMAS,
06:26MEANTIME, IS SURGING.
06:28GAZA RESIDENTS WHO LIVE WITH
06:29HAMAS ARE MORE CRITICAL,
06:30HOWEVER.
06:31SO HOW WILL THE LEADERSHIP
06:33CRISIS BE RESOLVED?
06:35WHAT IMPACT WOULD NEW LEADERSHIP
06:36HAVE ON EFFORTS TO MAKE PEACE?
06:41NIVINE SANDOUKA WITH MIDDLE EAST
06:43PEACE SAYS IT WON'T COME FROM
06:45THE TOP DOWN.
06:46JOINING HER IS FORMER KNESSET
06:50MEMBER KSENIA SVETKIVA WHO IS A
06:53MEMBER OF THE ALLIANCE.
06:54I'M SO GLAD TO SEE YOU SITTING
06:56THERE TOGETHER TALKING TO US
06:57ABOUT THIS REALLY CRITICAL
06:59MOMENT IN THE REGION DURING THIS
07:00WAR AS YOU SEE JAKE SULLIVAN,
07:03NATIONAL SECURITY VILESOR,
07:04MEETING WITH ISRAELI OFFICIALS
07:06YESTERDAY IN THE WEST BANK,
07:10TODAY.
07:10LET ME ASK YOU FIRST.
07:11WHAT IS THE REACTION IN ISRAEL
07:13OF WHAT APPEARS TO BE A GROWING
07:17RIFT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND ITS
07:18CLOSEST ALLY, THE UNITED STATES?
07:20NOT ON THE CONTEXT OF GOING
07:22AFTER HAMAS, BUT HOW IT IS BEING
07:25PURSUED, AND MORE SPECIFICALLY,
07:26WHAT THE DAY AFTER LOOKS LIKE?
07:31>> WELL, I CAN TELL YOU, FIRST
07:33OF ALL, THERE IS AN ORGANIZATION
07:35THAT ISRAEL WILL HAVE TO END THE
07:38ACTIVE PHASE OF ITS MILITARY
07:39OPERATION IN GAZA IN A FEW
07:41WEEKS' TIME.
07:42I CANNOT TELL YOU WHETHER IT IS
07:43FOUR WEEKS OR SIX WEEKS BUT THE
07:45CLOCK IS TICKING AND IT IS CLEAR
07:47TO JUST ABOUT EVERYONE.
07:48AND WHILE THE RIFT BETWEEN THE
07:51U.S. AND ISRAEL IS WIDENING, I
07:53THINK THAT THE CAMP OF THOSE IN
07:57ISRAEL WHO WERE CRITICAL BEFORE
07:58THE WAR IN GAZA OF THE PRIME
08:01MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND
08:03THE DECISIONS THAT HE MAKES,
08:04THEY BECOME IMPATIENT AND THERE
08:07IS GROWING ANGER AGAINST HIM.
08:11THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW IS
08:12THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT OPENLY
08:14SUPPORTS AND SUPPORTS IN EVERY
08:17INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF
08:18ISRAEL AND THE CONTINUATION OF
08:19THIS UNFORTUNATELY NEEDED
08:21MILITARY OPERATION.
08:22SO IN THIS REGARD, I THINK THAT
08:24WE WILL SEE MOUNTING PRESSURE ON
08:27NETANYAHU.
08:28NOT ONLY FROM HIS, FROM PEOPLE
08:29WHO USUALLY CRITICIZE HIM FROM
08:32THE CAMP OF THOSE WHO PROTESTED
08:34AGAINST HIM FOR THE LAST YEAR.
08:37AND EVEN MORE.
08:38BUT ALSO FROM PEOPLE WHO ARE
08:39VERY REALISTIC ABOUT EVERYTHING
08:41FROM HIS OWN CAMP, FROM THE
08:48LIKUD PARTY, THERE IS A LOT OF
08:50DISSENT AND UNDERSTANDING THAT
08:51HE IS RUINING ISRAEL FOR HIS OWN
08:54GOOD, FOR HIS OWN NARROW
08:56POLITICAL INTERESTS.
08:59>> WE ARE HEARING FROM WAR
09:00CABINET MEMBERS WHO SPOKE OUT
09:02THIS WEEK AGAINST NETANYAHU AND
09:03THAT, QUOTE, THERE ARE THOSE WHO
09:05ARE ENGAGED IN CREATING FAKE
09:07DISPUTES IN THE NATION AND
09:08HARMING THE IMPORTANT RELATIONS
09:10WITH THE UNITED STATES,
09:11SUGGESTING THAT NETANYAHU IS
09:12MORE FOCUSED ON HIS POLITICAL
09:14FUTURE THAN THE FUTURE AND
09:17WELLBEING OF THE COUNTRY.
09:20NIVINE, LET ME ASK BUT THE
09:22MEETINGS BETWEEN JAKE SULLIVAN
09:23AND THE P.A.
09:25AS NOTED IN THE INTRODUCTION,
09:26SUPPORT FOR MAHMOUD ABBAS HAS
09:29SHARPLY DECLINED.
09:31NOT ONLY DUE TO THE ISRAELI
09:34GOVERNMENT'S ATTEMPTS TO KEEP
09:35THEM THAT WAY, AND TO LOWER
09:38THEIR HOLD OVER THE REGION, BUT
09:41ALSO, INTERNALLY AMONGST THOSE
09:43IN THE WEST BANK WHO SAY THEY
09:45HAVE LOST FAITH WITH THEIR
09:46LEADERSHIP.
09:47THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A
09:49CHANGING OF THE GUARD.
09:50SO WITH THAT IN MIND, DO YOU SEE
09:53ANY PRODUCTIVE NEWS OR HEADLINES
09:55COMING OUT OF MEETING WITH JAKE
09:57SULLIVAN AND CURRENT LEADERSHIP
09:58OF THE
10:06>> I THINK THERE IS BOTH THE
10:08P.A. AND THE AMERICAN
10:09ADMINISTRATION IN GENERAL, ALL
10:11AGREE THE P.A., THE PALESTINIAN
10:13AUTHORITY, NEEDS TO BE REVIVED.
10:15THE BIG QUESTION IS HOW IT WILL
10:16BE REVIVED AND WHO IS THE NEXT
10:19PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT?
10:19AND THE GOOD THING IS THAT SINCE
10:22THERE IS THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN
10:24THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND
10:27THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION, IT
10:30KIND OF GIVES HOPE TO THE
10:32PALESTINIANS AMIDST THIS DESPAIR
10:35THAT WE ARE LIVING AS
10:36PALESTINIANS THESE DAYS.
10:38THE LACK OF SOURCES FOR THE
10:40PALESTINIANS, WHAT IS HAPPENING
10:42IN GAZA.
10:42ALL OF THOSE GIVE US A LOT OF
10:45DESPAIR.
10:45BUT IF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
10:47WILL ACTUALLY BE WILLING TO
10:51REVIVE AND AT LEAST NOMINATE
10:54ANOTHER LEADER, THAT WILL GIVE
10:56US HOPE FOR A NEGOTIATED
10:59AGREEMENT WITH ISRAELIS.
11:00>> AND THAT'S A BIG IF.
11:04WE SAW HIM GIVE AN INTERVIEW
11:06YESTERDAY, USING THE DIPLOMATIC
11:08SPEAK WHEN ASKED DIRECTLY ABOUT
11:09THE DISAGREEMENTS BETWEEN WHAT
11:11THE DAY AFTER LOOKS LIKE WITH
11:14NETANYAHU PUBLICLY DECLARING
11:15THAT IT WON'T INCLUDE FATAH AND
11:18THE UNITED STATES SAYING THAT IT
11:20SEES LEADERSHIP OF BOTH THE WEST
11:23BANK AND GAZA UNDER THE P.A.
11:26HE TALKS ABOUT THIS AND WITHOUT
11:28DIRECTLY GOING AFTER NETANYAHU.
11:30TAKE A LISTEN TO WHAT EM.
11:32>> LOOK, I CAN'T OBVIOUSLY SPEAK
11:34FOR THE PRIME MINISTER.
11:35WHAT I CAN DO IS ON BEHALF OF
11:37PRESIDENT BIDEN, LAY OUT HOW WE
11:38LOOK AT THIS ISSUE.
11:39THE WAY WE LOOK IT A IS THAT
11:42ULTIMATELY, GOVERNANCE OF THE
11:43WEST BANK AND GAZA NEEDS TO BE
11:45CONNECTED AND IT NEEDS TO BE
11:46CONNECTED UNDER A REVAMPED AND
11:49REVITALIZED PALESTINIAN
11:49AUTHORITY.
11:50>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
11:51>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.
11:53THAT'S SOMETHING THAT REQUIRES
11:54INTENSIVE CONSULTATIONS WITH THE
11:56PALESTINIANS FIRST, AS WELL AS
11:57WITH THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.
11:59IT WILL REQUIRE A REFORM.
12:01IT WILL REQUIRE AN UPDATING OF
12:04HOW THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
12:06APPROACHES GOVERNANCE.
12:07>> THAT SOUNDS QUITE AMBITIOUS
12:09AT THIS POINT.
12:10IS THIS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE
12:11ACHIEVED WITH THE CURRENT
12:12GOVERNMENT IN PLACE?
12:14NETANYAHU PERHAPS HIMSELF SAYING
12:15SOMETHING PUBLICLY AND ACTING
12:17DIFFERENTLY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS,
12:19GIVEN THE U.S. PRESSURE, OR WILL
12:20IT REQUIRE A NEW ISRAELI
12:22GOVERNMENT TO REALLY SEE SOME OF
12:24THIS IMPLEMENTED?
12:28>> THIS RADICAL RIGHT WING
12:32GOVERNMENT WILL NOT ALLOW SPACE
12:33FOR NETANYAHU FOR ANY KIND OF
12:36CONSULTATIONS, NEGOTIATIONS,
12:37DELIBERATIONS.
12:38ALL OF THIS IS IRRELEVANT TO THE
12:43EXTREME ONES THAT HE DECIDED TO
12:47BUILD A GOVERNMENT WITH.
12:48THERE WILL BE NO PALESTINIAN
12:50AUTHORITY.
12:50THERE WILL BE NO FATAH.
12:52AND I'M TELLING YOU, THIS IS, IT
12:55IS A DAY DREAM THAT HE TRIES TO
12:57SELL TO SOME PEOPLE IN HIS CAMP
12:59THAT ARE NAIVE ENOUGH TO BELIEVE
13:01THAT THERE COULD BE SOME KIND OF
13:03SOLUTION THAT WILL EXCLUDE THE
13:06AUTHENTIC LEADERSHIP OF THE
13:07PALESTINIAN PEOPLE WHO IS
13:08RECOGNIZED BY THE WHOLE WORLD,
13:10WHICH IS OF COURSE, THE
13:11PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.
13:13ANYBODY WHO WILL RIGHT NOW TRY
13:15TO IMAGINE SOME FOREIGN FORM OF
13:18LEADERSHIP GOVERNMENT
13:20WHATSOEVER, PEACE KEEPING FORCE
13:21THAT WILL JUST LAND FROM, I
13:23DON'T KNOW, OUTER SPACE AND WILL
13:25GOVERN THIS PLACE THAT NOBODY
13:27REALLY WANTS BUT THE
13:30PALESTINIANS THEMSELVES.
13:31HE IS DAYDREAMING AND HE'S
13:33LYING.
13:34HE'S LYING TO THE ISRAELIS,
13:35FIRST OF ALL.
13:38IT IS TIME THESE WORDS WERE
13:39ACTUALLY UTTERED BY THE ADVISER
13:41FOR NATIONAL SECURITY TO THE
13:43GOVERNMENT IN, AS LATE AS, I
13:46BELIEVE, THE BEGINNING OF
13:47NOVEMBER.
13:47HE SAID IN HIS OWN WORDS, THERE
13:48IS A NEED FOR PALESTINIAN
13:50AUTHORITY TO BE REINSTATED IN
13:53GAZA STRIP.
13:53WE KNOW THAT IT HAS ISSUES BUT
13:55THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.
13:57WITH THIS GOVERNMENT, I DO NOT
13:58SEE ANY WAY TO MOVE FORWARD.
14:01THIS GOVERNMENT IS UNABLE TO
14:02GIVE THE ADEQUATE RESPONSE TO
14:05THE GREAT CHALLENGES OF THIS
14:06WAR, OF THE DANGERS, YOU KNOW,
14:08OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
14:10I THINK IT IS QUITE CLEAR.
14:11PEOPLE DO NOT BELIEVE ANYMORE
14:12THE HEAD OF STATE AND THE
14:14GOVERNMENT.
14:15>> I'M SURE YOU'VE SEEN THIS NEW
14:19POLL THAT'S GETTING A LOT OF
14:20SUBSTANTIAL BY THE PALESTINIAN
14:21CENTER FOR POLICY AND SURVEY
14:23RESEARCH SHOWING A STRONG
14:25MAJORITY BELIEVE HAMAS WAS
14:26CORRECT TO LAUNCH THE OCTOBER
14:287th ATTACKS.
14:29THAT'S 72%.
14:31A PORTION OF PEOPLE HAD A
14:32SUPPORT THE ARMED STRUGGLE AS
14:33THE MOST EFFECTIVE MEANS AGAINST
14:35THE OCCUPATION ROSE 10% FROM
14:38SEPTEMBER TO NOW 63%.
14:40AND MOST INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH,
14:42AND ALARMING, IS THAT SUPPORT
14:44FOR HAMAS HAS INCREASED
14:46SIGNIFICANTLY.
14:47ESPECIALLY IN THE WEST BANK.
14:48NOT AS MUCH IN THE GAZA STRIP,
14:51GIVEN WHAT WE'RE SEEING WHAT DO
15:03YOU READ INTO IT?
15:03>> LET'S REMEMBER IT DIDN'T
15:04HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.
15:06IT HAPPENED BECAUSE OF MORE THAN
15:0750 YEARS OF OCCUPATION.
15:09IT HAPPENED FOR MORE THAN 15
15:11YEARS OF SIEGE.
15:12AND THE PALESTINIANS ALL THIS
15:13TIME --
15:14>> THAT DOESN'T EXCUSE IT.
15:22>> NO.
15:23THE PEOPLE SHOULD BE HELD
15:24RESPONSIBLE AS WELL.
15:27BUT IF WE READ INTO THE
15:28STATISTICS THAT YOU RIGHTLY
15:30MENTIONED, IF YOU THINK WHY ARE
15:32THE PALESTINIANS IN THE WEST
15:32BANK HAVE A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF
15:34SUPPORT IN HAMAS, IT DOESN'T
15:36NECESSARILY MAY NOT THEY WANT
15:39THE GOVERNMENT OR AN ISLAMIC
15:40STATE TO BE THE FUTURE
15:41PALESTINIAN STATE.
15:42YOU NEED TO READ INTO THE
15:44PSYCHOLOGY OF THE PALESTINIAN
15:45PEOPLE AT THIS STAGE.
15:46THE PSYCHOLOGY IS SAYING THAT
15:48WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA WITH
15:49ALL THESE CALLS FOR DISPLACEMENT
15:52AND BECOMING REFUGEES ACTUALLY
15:54BRINGS BACK TO THE PSYCHOLOGY OF
15:56THE PALESTINIAN, THE CATASTROPHE
15:58OF 1948.
15:59AND IF YOU SAY THAT, IF YOU LOOK
16:01AT WHO IS RATE NOW DEFENDING THE
16:05PALESTINIANS, THE PALESTINIAN
16:06AUTHORITY IS HELPLESS.
16:08IT IS TALKING TO THE UNITED
16:09NATIONS.
16:10IT IS TALKING TO OTHER
16:12GOVERNMENTS.
16:12NOBODY IS TRYING, STOPPING THE
16:14OFFENSIVE IN GAZA AND IT SEEMS
16:16FOR THE PALESTINIAN, THE ONLY
16:18PARTY THAT IS ACTUALLY DEFENDING
16:22AND PREVENTING IT FROM HAPPENING
16:24IS HAMAS.
16:25THAT'S WHY THE PSYCHOLOGY OF THE
16:27PALESTINIAN IN THE WEST BANK IS
16:28YES, LET US SUPPORT THEM.
16:31THEY PRESENT THESE DAYS
16:33RESISTANCE TO THE OCCUPATION.
16:35THAT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MAY
16:36NOT THAT THEY WANT ISLAMIC
16:39GOVERNMENT.
16:39JUST ONE MORE STATISTIC THAT IS
16:43IMPORTANT.
16:43IF HE RUNS AGAINST THIS MAN,
16:46WHICH MEANS REPRESENTING FATAH
16:48AND THIS MAN REPRESENTING HAMAS
16:49WILL WIN WHICH SHOWS THAT WE
16:51WANT A MODERATE PALESTINIAN
16:53STATE TO BE IN PLACE, RATHER
16:55THAN AN ISLAMIC STATE.
16:56>> THERE WAS AN ANALYSIS TRYING
16:58TO BREAK DOWN THE RATIONALE
17:00BEHIND THIS POLLING.
17:02AND IT SUGGESTED THAT LIKE IN
17:03ISRAEL, WHERE YOU'RE NOT SEEING
17:06AS MANY OF THE IMAGES OF THE
17:08DEVASTATION AND THE HUMANITARIAN
17:10CRISIS IN GAZA AS WE'RE SEEING
17:11THE REST OF THE WORLD.
17:13THE SAME IMAGES AS TO WHAT
17:16HAPPENED.
17:16THE TRAGEDY AND HORRORS OF ACT
17:19WHEN OCTOBER 7th WERE NOT
17:21RESONATING AND PLAYING IN THE
17:22WEST BANK.
17:23DO YOU THINK THAT HAD AN IMPACT
17:25ON THE POLL NUMBERS?
17:27AS YOU KNOW, HAMAS HAS SEEN A
17:31RISE IN POPULARITY BUT NOT AMONG
17:34THOSE IN GAZA.
17:38>> YEAH.
17:40I THINK IN GAZA THEY'RE PAYING
17:42THE HIGHEST PRICE.
17:43WE SAW IT WITH CIVILIANS.
17:46AND THEY ARE NOT ABLE TO PROTECT
17:48THE PEOPLE IN GAZA AND
17:49THEREFORE, THERE IS A DROP IN
17:50THE SUPPORT FOR HAMAS.
17:54BUT IF YOU LOOK AT THE WEST BANK
17:57SPECIFICALLY AGAIN AS I
17:58MENTIONED, THE HELPLESSNESS, THE
18:00LEVEL OF HELPLESSNESS THAT IS
18:03INCREASING, THAT IS ONE REASON
18:05FOR THE SUPPORT FOR HAMAS'S
18:07INCREASED POPULARITY.
18:09>> JUST FROM A PSYCHOLOGICAL
18:11STANDPOINT, YOU SEE JUST THE
18:13TRAUMA THAT ISRAEL IS STILL
18:15DEALING WITH.
18:16I TOUCHED ON THIS EARLIER ABOUT
18:18JUST NOT SEEING THE IMAGES OF
18:20WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA, THE
18:22WAY THE REST OF THE WORLD IS
18:24SEEING.
18:25ISRAEL IS DEALING WITH ITS OWN
18:26SHOCK AND ITS OWN TRAUMA.
18:29HOSTAGES, OVER 100 STILL
18:31REMAINING THERE.
18:33I'M JUST WONDERING, IS IT
18:35CONSTRUCTIVE AT ALL, TORN QUITE
18:37BLUNT, TO BE HAVING THESE
18:39CONVERSATIONS WITH PALESTINIANS,
18:40WITH ISRAELIS AT A MOMENT WHEN
18:43THERE IS STILL SO MUCH EMOTION?
18:47THAT'S ONE ARGUMENT I'M HEARING,
18:49TOO.
18:49>> UNFORTUNATELY, TOMORROW THAT
18:52EVERYBODY IS DISCUSSING, IT IS
18:54TODAY.
18:55THERE IS NO TIME.
18:56AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE
18:59QUESTION OF WHO WILL RUN GAZA,
19:05IT'S NOT A THEORETICAL
19:06DISCUSSION.
19:07THIS IS NEXT MONTH.
19:08THIS IS TODAY.
19:09THE DISTRIBUTION OF HUMANITARIAN
19:11AID, THE SEWAGE, THE EDUCATION,
19:13THE RELIEF FOR THE REFUGEES, YOU
19:17KNOW, THE REBUILDING OF GAZA.
19:18THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE CANNOT
19:21POSTPONE, UNFORTUNATELY.
19:23I BRING IN THE ORIGINAL
19:24PERSPECTIVE IN THE ORGANIZATION.
19:26THE ORIGINAL ORGANIZATION FOR
19:27PEACE AND SECURITY.
19:29WE STRONGLY BELIEVE THE
19:34PALESTINIANS HAVE TRIED TO REACH
19:35A SOLUTION AND WE BELIEVE ONLY
19:38INTEGRATION IN OUR REGION, IN
19:40THE MIDDLE EAST, WHICH WE ARE
19:41PART OF, AND BOTH THE NATIONS
19:45WERE SECLUDED FOR REASONS IN THE
19:47PAST.
19:48BUT THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THIS
19:50TODAY.
19:51TODAY THE CONVERSATION SHOULD BE
19:52LED BY THE REGION ITSELF.
19:58AND WE JUST HEARD THIS WEEK.
20:01IN THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" THE
20:03IRAQI MINISTER SAID THERE IS NO
20:05WAY THAT THE COUNTRIES WILL BE
20:07INVOLVED IF THERE WILL BE NO
20:08ISRAELI OBLIGATION TO THE
20:10TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
20:11IT MEANS THERE IS A TRI-LATERAL
20:14DISCUSSION THAT SHOULD BE HELD
20:15WITH THE SUPPORT AND HAD THAT OF
20:16THE AMERICANS AND THE EUROPEANS.
20:19BUT THERE IS NO WAY TO LEAVE IT
20:20IN THE BILATERAL LEVEL TODAY.
20:23AND THERE IS ALSO NO LUXURY OF
20:29DEALING WITH THIS TOMORROW WHEN
20:30WE FEEL BETTER.
20:32WE ARE SUFFERING FROM POST
20:34TRAUMA LIKE WE DID AFTER THE
20:36SECOND INTERFADDA.
20:38IT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN FORGET
20:40ABOUT IT AND FOR NOW CONCENTRATE
20:43ON THE PAINFUL.
20:44>> THE CONSENSUS APPEARS TO BE
20:46THERE WILL BE NO PEACE, NO
20:48SOLUTION, UNTIL BOTH ISRAELIS
20:50AND PALESTINIANS HAVE HOMES OF
20:51THEIR OWN, SIDE BY SIDE IN
20:56PEACE.
20:57THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR
20:58JOINING US.
20:59THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING YOU'RE
21:01DOING DURING THESE TURBULENT
21:03TIME IN MAIN DETAINING YOUR WORK
21:04TOGETHER AS WELL.
21:05I KNOW IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.
21:08>>> UP NEXT, TO BRIDGE BUILDING
21:10OF ANOTHER SORT.
21:12IN MEXICO, LUCHA LIBRE, HOME
21:17GROWN PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, IS
21:20WILDLY POPULAR.
21:22LUCHADORES ARE SUPER STARS.
21:26ENTER CASSANDRO WHOSE REAL NAME
21:35PERFORMS IN DRAG.
21:36AND DOING SO, IT RISES TO
21:39INTERNATIONAL STARDOM BREAKING
21:46CULTURAL TABOOS EVERY STEP OF
21:50THE WAY.
21:52GAEL GARCIA BERNAL HAS WRAPPED
21:53UP A LONG LIST OF LEADING ROLE.
21:56I SPOKE TO HIM ABOUT CAPTURING
21:58THE ATHLETICISM AND THE INNER
22:01LIFE OF TODAY SAND, CASSANDRO.
22:07>> THE MOVIE CASSANDRO, I'VE
22:10LEARNED SO MUCH.
22:10FIRST TELL US ABOUT THE WORLD OF
22:15LUCHA LIBRE.
22:18>> IT BECAMAL PHENOMENON IN THE
22:2120th CENTURY.
22:22IT GOES BACK TO THE 19th
22:24CENTURY.
22:25SO I GREW UP WITH A REVAMPING OF
22:29THE LOOMPA LIBRE.
22:31IT STARTED TO GET TELEVISED IN
22:37MEXICO.
22:39I GREW UP WITH THEM.
22:42THE AMAZING WRESTLERS, AND I
22:45USED TO LOVE WATCHING THAT.
22:47WATCHING THE LUCHA LIBRE.
22:50>> SO WE LEARNED ABOUT IT.
22:52AND WE LEARNED ABOUT THE EXOTICO
22:54ELEMENT.
22:55WALK US THROUGH THAT.
22:57>> THE EXOTICOS HAVE BEEN THERE
22:59A LONG, LONG TIME.
23:04IT WAS IN THE '90s THAT
23:08CASSANDRO AND OTHER EXOTICOS,
23:10THEY KIND OF SUBVERT OR
23:14ACCOMPANY, THE THE TODAY LISTS
23:16OF A CHANGE THAT SOCIETY WAS
23:20GOING THROUGH.
23:22IT INCORPORATED THE EXOTICOS
23:25INTO THE MAIN TITLES OF THE
23:29LUCHA LIBRE.
23:30SO THEY STARTED TO WIN.
23:31THEY STARTED TO BECOME VERY
23:33PROMINENT AND PEOPLE STARTED TO
23:35LOVE WATCHING THEM WRESTLE.
23:37>> AND THEY WERE CHEERING FOR
23:38THAT.
23:38THESE WERE THE PEOPLE THAT
23:40PEOPLE WERE HOPING WOULD WIN AND
23:43WERE AIMING FOR.
23:45AND YOUR CHARACTER AT THE
23:49BEGINNING, HOW DOES HE EVOLVE
23:52INTO CASSANDRO?
23:53>> THAT'S SOMETHING THAT ALL
23:56WRESTLERS GO THROUGH.
23:57MAYBE IT'S LIKE A LITTLE BIT
24:01LIKE A PLAY ABOUT THE CHARACTERS
24:05FINDING THEMSELVES, YOU KNOW.
24:08ALL WRESTLERS START OUT WITH A
24:12KIND OF A CONCEPT.
24:14MOST OF THE TIME IT DOESN'T WORK
24:16THE FIRST TIME.
24:19SO MY CHARACTER, THE ONE THEY
24:23INTERPRET SAUL, HE COMES UP WITH
24:29A CHARACTER TO WRESTLE AND THIS
24:31MUST BE THE FOURTH OR FIFTH TIME
24:32THAT HE'S TRYING AND NOTHING
24:35WORKS.
24:35NOTHING PUTS IT TOGETHER.
24:36WE CAME UP WITH THAT IDEA.
24:38LET'S CALL THIS GUY THE MOLE.
24:47AND HE GOES INTO, AND INKORMTS
24:50THE EXOTICO PERSONA THAT IS
24:54INCREDIBLY FLAMBOYANT AND TRIES
24:58THROUGH THAT CHARACTER TO FIND
25:00THE CHARACTER THAT CONNECTS WITH
25:02PEOPLE AND IT DOES.
25:03>> AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT SAUL'S
25:05RELATIONSHIP WITH BOTH HIS
25:06MOTHER AND HIS FATHER.
25:08ESPECIALLY HIS MOTHER IN
25:10PARTICULAR IS QUITE BEAUTIFUL.
25:11WE HAVE A CLIP OF CASSANDRO'S
25:17DEBUT.
25:27>> THIS IS A LIFE-CHANGING
25:52MOMENT.
25:53A LIGHT BULB GOES OFF WHEN HE
25:54SEES WHAT HE CAN DO BUT ALSO THE
25:57SPECTATOR'S RESPONSE TO THE
25:59PERFORMANCE.
26:01>> YEAH.
26:03A LOT CHANGED WHERE THE
26:05PARTICIPANT OF THIS KIND OF
26:10CHANGE, PEOPLE STARTED TO, LUCHA
26:15LIBRE BECAME A CONTACT SPORT.
26:16PERHAPS THE ONLY ONE I CAN THINK
26:19OF.
26:20I'M HERE TO BE CORRECTED ALSO,
26:22BUT I CAN'T THINK OF A CONTACT
26:24SPORT THAT HAS OPENLY GAY
26:26ATHLETES COMPETING.
26:30SO LUCHA LIBRE, BECAUSE OF ITS
26:34THEATRICAL PART, WAS ABLE TO THE
26:39NOT SUSTAIN THOSE MAYBE
26:41SUPERFICIAL DEFINITIONS OF WHAT
26:44IS SEXUALITY OR SEXUAL
26:48ORIENTATION.
26:48KIND OF LIKE STARTED TO
26:50INCORPORATE THEM WITH A MUCH
26:51MORE EASINESS AND FLOW AND ALSO,
26:55CARING FOR THAT, TAKING EVERYONE
26:58INTO CONSIDERATION.
26:59SO YEAH, AFTER THIS MOVIE, I'M
27:01EVEN MORE PROUD OF LUCHA LIBRE
27:06AND LATCHA LIBRE MEXICO.
27:09IT'S A GREAT SHOW.
27:10>> YOU ADDRESS SO MANY FAFACETS.
27:15HIS OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS
27:17SEXUALITY AND WITH ANOTHER MAN
27:18WHO HE CAN'T FULLY CALL HIS OWN,
27:21WHO HAS A SEPARATE LIFE.
27:23TALK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES IN
27:27GIVING ENOUGH ATTENTION AND
27:30ENOUGH DEPTH TO ALL OF THESE
27:31DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS WHILE
27:33TELLING THE VIEWERS ABOUT THIS
27:35SPORT.
27:35>> IN THE CASE OF THE MOTHER,
27:36THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MOTHER
27:40AND HIS LOVER, BOYFRIEND, IT WAS
27:44MORE LIKE A SECRET.
27:47A SECRET, YOU KNOW.
27:49SO IN THE FILM YOU CAN SEE THAT
27:54THERE IS SEVERAL DUALITIES.
27:58IT HAPPENS AT THE BORDER WHERE
27:59YOU HAVE TO PLAY THAT.
28:00YOU'RE IN TOUCH WITH THAT
28:04DUALITY.
28:04YOU'RE CROSSING THE BORDER ALL
28:06THE TIME.
28:07AND THAT CREATES A VERY
28:10PARTICULAR CULTURE.
28:14>> YOUR CHARACTER IS FROM EL
28:16PASO.
28:16>> HE'S FROM EL PASO.
28:18>> CROSSING THE BORDER.
28:20>> IT'S LIKE PEOPLE ON THE
28:23BORDER CROSS BACK AND FORTH ALL
28:24THE TIME BECAUSE THEY HAVE
28:27FAMILY OR WORK OR WHATEVER IN
28:31DIFFERENT SIDES.
28:31AND THEY HAVE TO IGNORE THAT
28:35STUPID WALL THAT EXISTS THERE IN
28:37ORDER TO, WELL, IGNORE IS THE
28:39WRONG WORD.
28:41>> IT'S AN OBSTACLE.
28:44>> THEY HAVE TO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE
28:45THE WALL TO COME BACK AND FORTH.
28:48IF YOU REALLY TAKE THAT WALL
28:50INTO CONSIDERATION, IF YOU STEP
28:52A LITTLE ASIDE AND YOU SEE THAT
28:56WALL, YOU CAN'T LIVE WITH THAT
29:00HORRENDOUS IMPOSITION THAT IS
29:01THERE.
29:02IT IS SO RIDICULOUS.
29:03IT TRIES TO STOP PEOPLE FROM
29:05CROSSING FROM ONE SIDE TO THE
29:09OTHER.
29:10SO CASSANDRO'S SAUL, THE
29:14CHARACTER, IS USED TO THIS
29:16DUALITY.
29:17TO PLAY THE DIFFERENT ROLES
29:19DEPENDING ON WHERE HE IS.
29:20WITH HIS BOYFRIEND AND WITH HIS
29:22MOTHER.
29:22HE ALWAYS PLAYS THIS SECRET
29:25LIFE, YOU KNOW.
29:28YES, VERY, VERY LOVING AND VERY
29:33SUPPORTIVE.
29:34BUT IT IS A SECRET.
29:35IT CAN'T BE KNOWN, YOU KNOW?
29:38SO CASSANDRO IS KIND OF THE
29:41DETONATOR FOR ALL THAT.
29:43DOESN'T WANT TO BE IN SECRET
29:47ANYMORE.
29:48AND THAT WAS NICE TO WALK THAT
29:53PATH.
29:53AND LIVE THAT AND PORTRAY THAT.
29:57>> CASSANDRO WAS A REALLY
30:01PERSON.
30:01A BY AOGRAPHER I INTERVIEWED
30:04ONCE SAID HE WILL ONLY
30:05UNDERSTAND PEOPLE HE CAN
30:06UNDERSTAND AT THE END OF THE DAY
30:07WHAT WAS INSIDE THEIR CORE, HAD
30:08A THEY WERE.
30:09AS SOMEONE WHO HAS PLAYED REAL
30:11LIFE CHARACTERS IN THE PAST IN
30:13OTHER FILMS, DO YOU FEEL LIKE
30:14YOU HAVE TO ACHIEVE THAT
30:16YOURSELF IN ORDER TO REALLY GET
30:17THIS CHARACTER RIGHT?
30:21>> WITH CASSANDRO IT'S
30:24DIFFERENT.
30:24IT'S SAUL.
30:25HE CREATED A CHARACTER IN ORDER
30:31TO, A CHARACTER WHO IS NOT
30:35HIMSELF.
30:35THIS CHARACTER IS VERY OPEN,
30:41DEPENDING ON THE MOMENT.
30:42THAT HAPPENED WHEN I PLAYED,
30:51WHEN HE WAS A KID, I UNDERSTOOD
30:55HIS LIFE'S JOURNEY.
30:57ACTING IN IT ALLOWED ME TO
30:58UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WENT
31:00THROUGH.
31:00WHAT THEY SAW.
31:01WHAT THEY DISCOVERED.
31:04>> THAT WAS IN MOTORCYCLE
31:06DIARIES.
31:07TALK ABOUT THE TRAINING THAT
31:07WENT INTO IT AND THE ATTENTION
31:09YOU GAVE TO THE PHYSICALITY OF
31:10THE SPORT, WHICH IS ALSO, YOU
31:13KNOW, AN AFRLT.
31:14>> YEAH, YEAH.
31:16IT IS.
31:16ALSO VERY HIGHLY SKILLED.
31:20VERY TOUGH SPORT.
31:24SO I TRAINED, THE FIRST THING I
31:27DID WAS GAIN MUSCLE AND SORT OF
31:31STRENGTH SO I ATE A LOT.
31:33>> WAS THAT FUN?
31:34>> THAT WAS FUN.
31:35THAT PART WAS AMAZING.
31:37IT WAS LIKE EVERY DAY EXERCISE
31:38AND HAVING FUN SO I WOULD EAT
31:40WITH A LOT OF HUNGER AS WELL.
31:43AND FEELING GOOD, YOU KNOW.
31:46AND THEN TWO MONTHS BEFORE
31:48STARTING TO SHOOT, WE START TOO
31:53TRAIN THE WRESTLING.
31:56I STARTED TO TRAIN WITH REAL
32:02WRESTLERS, THE BECOMING
32:04WRESTLERS.
32:04MY TEACHERS WERE CHESS MEN.
32:09VERY PROMINENT.
32:13>> HAVE YOU EVER WRESTLED
32:15BEFORE?
32:15>> NO, NO.
32:16>> AS A KID BUT NOT AS A SPORT.
32:18>> NOT AS A SPORT.
32:19AND YOU HAVE TO LEARN THE
32:21BASICS, YOU KNOW.
32:22HOW TO FALL, FOR EXAMPLE.
32:24OR HOW TO USE THE ROPES.
32:28IT IS A PARTICULAR THING.
32:31A LOT OF FLEXIBILITY.
32:33HOW TO GET INTO THE RIM.
32:35JUMPING THIS, HOW TO FALL, HOW
32:38TO DO THIS.
32:39IT IS A MIXTURE OF JADDO AND YOU
32:46HAVE TO PERFORM.
32:47SO TO DO THE THEATRICALITY OF
32:53IT, YOU HAVE TO SELL THE KICK
32:55THAT YOU'RE DOING AND THE KICK
32:58THAT TAKES YOU TO THE NECK OF
33:00SOMEONE.
33:01IT'S FANTASTIC.
33:01>> THE TWISTING OF THE ARM.
33:03>> WHAT IS NICE, I HAVE TO SAY
33:07THAT WE MIGHT THINK THAT
33:10WRESTLING IS LIKE A SPORT THAT
33:12IS ARRANGED, YOU KNOW.
33:15NO.
33:16IT'S A COMPLETE -- THE
33:19COMPARISON I GAVE IS LIKE, I
33:22DANCE SALSA SINCE I'VE BEEN A
33:24KID, GROWING UP IN MEXICO AND
33:27EVERYTHING.
33:28BUT I'VE SEEN PEOPLE THAT DO NOT
33:31KNOW HOW TO DO SALSA SEE PEOPLE
33:33WHO DO SALSA AND THEY THINK
33:35THESE GUYS KNOW EACH OTHER.
33:36THEY REHEARSED.
33:38NO.
33:38THAT'S THE THING.
33:40ONCE YOU LEARN, YOU KNOW, YOU
33:42JUST IMPROVISE ALL THE TIME.
33:44AND WRESTLING IS A BIT LIKE
33:46THAT.
33:47LUCHA LIBRE IS A BIT LIKE THAT.
33:52IMPROVISATION.
33:53SO THAT WAS NICE TO LEARN AND TO
33:56GET THE HINT OF IT.
33:58TO GET THE HANG OF IT A LITTLE
34:00BIT.
34:00IT WAS REALLY NICE.
34:01>> MY FINAL QUESTION TO YOU.
34:03WHAT I ALSO REALLY APPRECIATED
34:05IN THIS FILM, AND I THOUGHT
34:08WORKED VERY SEAMLESSLY.
34:12THE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN
34:14ENGLISH AND SPANISH.
34:16WASN'T JUST THE CONCEPT OF
34:21LEARNING ONE LANGUAGE.
34:23HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT IT?
34:25>> THAT'S HOW PEOPLE TALK
34:29BORDER.
34:29>> WE DON'T SEE THAT IN MOVIES.
34:33>> NO.
34:34WE DON'T SEE THE BORDER BEING
34:35PORTRAYED AT ALL.
34:38WITH WE TALK ABOUT THE WALL,
34:41ALSO IT IS TO BUILD IT.
34:43TO CREATE A BIGGER WALL.
34:47BUT WE DON'T SEE ANY CRITICISM
34:51OF THE WALL OR ANY QUESTIONING
34:53OF THE WALL.
34:53AND FROM THE MEXICAN SIDE, WE
34:56SEE VERY LITTLE.
34:58BUT FROM THE UNITED STATES SIDE,
35:00EVEN LESS, YOU KNOW?
35:02AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS
35:05THERE.
35:05IT IS RIGHT HERE.
35:09AND WE WANTED TO PORTRAY THIS
35:11BORDER CULTURE BECAUSE IT IS
35:19FASCINATING FOR ME.
35:20I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN
35:22THE BACK AND FORTH, YOU KNOW.
35:25IN THE CULTURE THAT HAS BEEN
35:29GROWING THERE THAT IS NOT EVEN
35:31MEXICO, NOT EVEN THE UNITED
35:33STATES.
35:33IT IS A MIX.
35:35AND IN THE CONSTANT SORT OF
35:41ANGST OR JOURNEY THAT PEOPLE ARE
35:45HAVING THERE, WORKING THERE ON
35:47THE BORDER, IN THE DOCUMENTARY A
35:50FEW YEARS AGO, ONE OF THE
35:53NICEST -- ONE OF THE MOST
35:55BEAUTIFUL THINGS I HEARD WAS IT
35:58WAS A SECOND GENERATION, A THIRD
36:03GENERATION CHICANO.
36:08SHE WAS GOING AND SHE WANTED TO
36:10GO TO CERTAIN UNIVERSITIES IN
36:11MEXICO CITY.
36:13YEAH, YOU KNOW, WHAT I WANT TO
36:16DO, I FEEL THAT THE UNITED
36:18STATES IS LIKE THE FATHER THAT
36:21DIDN'T RECOGNIZE ME AND MEXICO
36:23IS THE MOTHER I NEVER KNEW.
36:25SO I WANT TO GET TO KNOW WHAT IS
36:29THERE, YOU KNOW.
36:31AND THAT I THINK KIND OF
36:35ENCOMPASSES THE VISION OF THE
36:41PEOPLE.
36:42WHEN THEY SAY NEITHER HERE NOR
36:44THERE.
36:44>> A SUBTLE YET REALLY EFFECTIVE
36:47REFERENCE TO THE ISSUE THAT YOU
36:49SAID IS NOT GETTING NEARLY
36:51ENOUGH ATTENTION.
36:52THANK YOU SO MUCH.
36:53CONGRATULATIONS ON THE FILM.
36:54I LEARNED SO MUCH AND IT IS JUST
36:56BEAUTIFULLY SHOT.
36:57THANK YOU.
36:57>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
37:00THANK YOU.
37:01>> THAT WAS SUCH A FUN
37:03INTERVIEW.
37:03>>> WE TURN NOW TO ONE THE MOST
37:06SIGNIFICANT LEAKS IN YEARS.
37:08THIS WEEK AIR NATIONAL GUARD
37:09TOOK DISCIPLININGARY ACTION
37:11AGAINST 15 SERVICE MEMBERS FOR
37:14FAILING TO PREVENT 21-YEAR-OLD
37:16GUARDSMAN JACK TEIXEIRA FROM
37:18ALLEGEDLY SHARING HUNDREDS OF
37:19CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS ONLINE.
37:21HE'S CURRENTLY PLEADING NOT
37:22GUILTY AS HE AWAITS TRIAL.
37:24NOW THE FRONTLINE DOCUMENTARY
37:28THE DISCORD LEAKS EXPLORES HOW
37:30THE GAMING PLATFORM BECAME A
37:33CENTER NOT ONLY FOR SECURITY
37:35BREACHES BUT ALSO FOR
37:37UNMODERATED EXTREMISM.
37:41>> THANKS.
37:42SAM OAKFORD, SHANE HARRIS, THANK
37:44YOU FOR JOINING US.
37:46KIND OF BRING OUR AUDIENCE BACK
37:47UP TO SPEED HERE.
37:50WHO WAS THE INDIVIDUAL AT THE
37:51CENTER OF ALL THIS?
37:53>> JACK TEIXEIRA, THE
37:5521-YEAR-OLD AIR NATIONAL
37:57GUARDSMAN FROM MASSACHUSETTS IS
37:58THE PERSON ULTIMATELY SUSPECTED
38:00OF DOING THESE LEAKS, RIGHT?
38:02SO WE CAN GO BACK TO APRIL WHEN
38:05SHANE AND I STARTED ON THIS
38:08STORY.
38:09THERE WAS INTELLIGENCE TRICKLING
38:10OUT.
38:10IT TURNED OUT IT CAME FROM
38:13DISCORD.
38:13WE WERE ABLE TO OBTAIN SEVERAL
38:15HUNDRED IMAGES THAT WERE TIED TO
38:19TEIXEIRA.
38:20WE SPENT THE LAST SIX, EIGHT
38:22MONTHS TRACKING DOWN THE PEOPLE
38:24HE INTERACTED ON DISCORD, THE
38:27PLATFORM WHERE HE START TO SHARE
38:30THESE OVER AER WHY AGO.
38:32>> I'LL GET TOM IN A SECOND.
38:35PUT THIS IN PERSPECTIVE.
38:37HOW SIGNIFICANT OF A LEAK OF
38:39CLASSIFIED AND TOP SECRET
38:41INFORMATION WAS THIS?
38:42>> IN TERMS THE QUANTITY, IT WAS
38:44VERY SIGNIFICANT.
38:46IT WAS ONE OF THE WORST LEAKS IN
38:48RECENT YEARS IN U.S.
38:48INTELLIGENCE.
38:49WHAT DISTINGUISHED THIS FROM
38:51OTHERS WAS THE BREADTH OF IT AND
38:54THE TIMELINESS.
38:56TEIXEIRA WAS ALLEGEDLY TAKING
38:57DOCUMENTS FROM HIS WORK PLACE
38:58THAT COVERED JUST ABOUT EVERY
39:01CONCEIVABLE GLOBAL HOT SPOT YOU
39:02COULD IMAGINE.
39:03THE WAR IN UKRAINE, THING GOING
39:05ON IN CHINA, RUSSIA, ASIA, A
39:09GLOBAL LOOK AT WHAT THE
39:12INTELLIGENCE WAS COLLECTING.
39:15AND IT WAS VERY TIMELY.
39:17HE WAS SHARING UPDATES ABOUT
39:19WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN UKRAINE
39:20WITH HIS FRIENDS SO IT IS THE
39:22BREADTH OF THIS.
39:24IT IS LIKE A SAMPLE OF
39:27EVERYTHING THE INTELLIGENCE
39:29COMMUNITY WOULD BE LOOKING AT AT
39:31A GIVEN POINT IN TIME.
39:33>> SO SAM, THIS INDIVIDUAL HAD
39:36ACCESS TO THIS BECAUSE OF WHERE
39:37HE WORK, THE TIME OF JOB THAT HE
39:39DID.
39:40TELL US ABOUT HOW HE WAS SHARING
39:42THIS INFORMATION.
39:44HOW WOULD HE GET THE TOP SECRET
39:46FILES OUT OF THE OFFICE ON TO
39:50DISCORD.
39:51FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVEN'T USED
39:53DISCORD, WHAT IS SO SPECIAL
39:54ABOUT THAT PLATFORM?
39:55>> THE AIR FORCE RELEASED THE
39:56SUMMARY OF A REPORT THIS WEEK
39:58WHICH SHED MORE LIGHT ON HOW HE
40:00MIGHT HAVE BEEN GAINING ACCESS
40:01TO THE MATERIAL.
40:03HE HAD TOP SECRET CLEARANCE TO
40:04BEGIN WITH.
40:05HE WAS MORE OF AN I.T. WORKER
40:07AND THAT DIDN'T NECESSARILY MEAN
40:09THAT HE NEEDED TO SEE ALL THE
40:10MATERIAL.
40:11THE AIR FORCE REPORT DETERMINED
40:14THAT THIS BASE, THE AIR NATIONAL
40:16GUARD BASE IN CAPE COD, WAS
40:23ACTUALLY SHOWING PEOPLE WHO
40:26DIDN'T NEED TO KNOW.
40:28WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW AT ALL
40:30TIMES HE WAS BRINGING IT HOME OR
40:32SHARING IT BUT IT CHANGED OVER
40:35TIME.
40:36HE WAS POSTING TEXTS.
40:38HE WAS SHARING THINGS, CASUALTY
40:40COUNTS RELATED TO THE UKRAINE OR
40:41HE STARTED TO MAKE THOSE UPDATES
40:44A LITTLE MORE ELABORATE.
40:46AND THEN TOWARD THE END OF LAST
40:51YEAR, WE'VE BEEN TOLD HE WAS
40:56TAKING IMAGES.
40:58HE WAS TAKING THEM TO HIS HOUSE.
40:59HE WAS CAUGHT SEVERAL TIMES BY
41:01HIS SUPERIORS AT THE BASE BUT
41:03THAT DID NOT INTERRUPT HIS
41:05LEAKING, AS IT TURNED OUT.
41:07AND DISCORD ITSELF IS A CLOSED
41:13PLATFORM THAT A LITTLE DIFFERENT
41:15FROM WHAT NOT PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE
41:21IMAGINED.
41:22IT WAS A PRETTY RACIST AND
41:26HOMOPHOBIC NAME AND THAT'S WHERE
41:27HE WAS LEAKING THE DOCUMENTS
41:28WITH THE CLOSE-KNIT COMMUNITY.
41:30AND HE ALSO LEAKED ON A SEPARATE
41:33SERVER AND NEITHER WERE NOTICED
41:34BY DISCORD ITSELF.
41:35>> SO SHANE, HOW DO WE GET FROM
41:39HIM LEAKING IT IN THIS OTHERWISE
41:46PRIVATE COMMUNITY.
41:47IT IS NOT LIKE POSTING IT TO
41:49FACEBOOK OR INSTAGRAM AND IT
41:52GOES VIRAL.
41:55SHARE WITH US ABOUT HOW IT WENT
41:56FROM THE CHAT ROOM TO YOUR RADAR
41:58AND THE WORLD.
42:00>> SOMEBODY IN THIS TIGHT-KNIT
42:02CIRCLE, AND WE SHOULD SAY THESE
42:04ARE MOSTLY TEENAGE BOYS WHO ARE
42:06THE FOLLOWERS.
42:10ONE OF THEM TOOK A CHUNK OF
42:13THESE DOCUMENTS, ABOUT FOUR
42:15DOZEN OF THEM AND SHARED THEM TO
42:20ANOTHER ONE AND THEY'RE
42:24REPOSTED.
42:25THE MEMBERS OF THE SERVER, THEN
42:29THERE'S AN UNWRITTEN RULE.
42:36DON'T SHARE THIS.
42:37THAT'S WHAT SETS OFF THE CHAIN
42:39REACTION IN LATE FEBRUARY OF
42:40THIS AREA.
42:41APRIL IS WHEN U.S. OFFICIALS AND
42:43OTHERS START TO NOTICE THAT
42:45THESE DOCUMENTS ARE NOW POPPING
42:46UP ALL AROUND THE INTERNET, AND
42:49THAT'S WHEN JOURNALISTS LIKE SAM
42:51AND MYSELF BECAME AWARE OF IT
42:52AND TRIED TO FIGURE OUT WHERE
42:54THESE DOCUMENTS HAD COME FROM
42:55AND WHO HAD POSTED THEM.
42:56>> SO SAM, TELL US A LITTLE
42:58ABOUT HOW YOU GO ABOUT FIGURING
43:00OUT WHO THIS INDIVIDUAL IS
43:07BEFORE THE DETAILS ARE RELEASED
43:08IN AN INVESTIGATION OR ANYTHING.
43:09HOW DO YOU FIGURE OUT WHO HIS
43:12FRIENDS ARE TO GET YOU TO TALK
43:14WITH HIM FOR THE STORY AND THE
43:15FRONT LINE SPECIAL.
43:19>> Reporter: IN APRIL, THEY WERE
43:21POPPING UP ON TELEGRAM, ON
43:24TWITTER, AND OTHER PLATFORMS
43:27THAT ARE MORE FRINGE.
43:29IT QUICKLY BECAME CLEAR THEY
43:31WERE COMING FROM DISCORD.
43:33THEN WE STARTED TO GET CLUES
43:36ABOUT WHO HIS FRIENDS MIGHT BE
43:37AND ULTIMATELY, SHANE AND I WERE
43:39ABLE TO TALK TO MEMBERS OF THE
43:42CLOSE-KNIT SERVER VERY EARLY ON
43:43AND WE PUBLISHED SOMETHING
43:47WITHIN DAYS BEFORE TEIXEIRA WAS
43:50ARRESTED.
43:50SO WE HAD THAT WITH THE
43:52COMMUNITY WHICH IS SOMETHING
43:53WE'VE USED THE LAST SIX MONTHS
43:54TO PAINT A PICTURE OF TEIXEIRA
43:57THAT.
43:58>> DID THESE PEOPLE WANT TO
44:01SPEAK TO YOU?
44:02ESPECIALLY VIDEO FORMAT?
44:03>> IT WAS TRICKY.
44:05THESE WERE KIDS THAT HAD SPENT
44:07THE PANDEMIC REALLY STARVED FOR
44:12INTERACTION.
44:13THAT REALLY PLAYED A ROLE IN THE
44:16DYNAMIC.
44:16HE TOOK ON THIS ALMOST
44:19UNCLE-LIKE ROLE.
44:20HE WAS DISSEMINATING KNOWLEDGE.
44:24THAT WAS HOW HE FRAMED THIS
44:27INFORMATION.
44:27THEY WERE EAGER TO TELL THEIR
44:28STORY BECAUSE I THINK IN SOME
44:30CASES, THEY REALLY WERE TRYING
44:31TO WORK THROUGH WHAT HAD
44:34HAPPENED.
44:36>> GORE WAS POSTED ON, PICTURES
44:43OF JIHADI BEHEADINGS OR CARTEL
44:46KILLINGS.
44:47DUDE, LOOK AT THIS GUY GETTING
44:49HIS HEAD CHOPPED OFF.
44:52IT WAS COOL.
44:53>> WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS
44:55NOW?
44:55>> I'M DEFINITELY NOT PROUD OF
44:58IT AT ALL.
45:04SITS EMBARRASSING AND
45:05HUMILIATING TO SPEAK ABOUT IT
45:07NOW BUT I'M WILLING TO.
45:10>> YOU MENTIONED THIS WAS NOT
45:13THE FIRST TIME OR THE FIRST
45:14INSTANCE OF TEIXEIRA GETTING IN
45:18TROUBLE ON HIS JOB.
45:22SO HOW MANY OPPORTUNITIES MISSED
45:25WERE THERE BEFORE WE GET TO THIS
45:28POINT WHERE ALL THESE DIFFERENT
45:30SECRETS ARE OUT?
45:33>> THERE WERE MANY MISSED
45:35OPPORTUNITIES AND THAT'S ONE OF
45:36THE KEY FEATURES WHERE THERE'S A
45:37LOT OF ACCOUNTABILITY ON THE
45:40DEFENSE DEPARTMENT TO ANSWER FOR
45:41THIS.
45:41THERE ARE AT LEAST FOUR
45:43INSTANCES THAT HAVE BEEN
45:44DOCUMENTED SO FAR BY AIR FORCE
45:47INVESTIGATORS OF TEIXEIRA BEING
45:49INVESTIGATED BY HIS SUPERIORS IN
45:51THE SECURE FACILITY WHERE HE
45:53WORKED AT THAT AIR NATIONAL
45:55GUARD BASE.
45:57READING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS,
45:59TAKING NOTES ON THEM IN SOME
46:01CASES AND HE WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO
46:02BE DOING THAT.
46:06AND HE'S REPRIMANDED FOR IT.
46:10WHAT YOU SEE IS WHILE HE'S BEING
46:13SCOLDED, NO ONE PULLS HIM OFF
46:15THE LINE OR RESTRICTS HIS
46:18ACCESS.
46:18WHAT THIS NEW INVESTIGATION HAS
46:19FOUND THIS WEEK NO, ONE IN HIS
46:21CHAIN OF COMMAND REPORTED HIM TO
46:23THE RELEVANT SECURITY OFFICIALS
46:25WHOSE JOB IT IS TO STEP IN WHEN
46:27SOMEONE VIOLATES THOSE RULES AND
46:31SUSPEND THEM OR WITH HOLE THEIR
46:34CLEARANCE.
46:35THAT JUST NEVER HAPPENED.
46:37AND THEY FAULTED THE AIR
46:39NATIONAL GUARD FOR WHAT THEY
46:40CALLED A CULTURE OF COMPLACENCY
46:42ABOUT TEIXEIRA AND THEY FOUND
46:45OTHER INSTANCES IN WHICH PEOPLE
46:47WERE LOOKING AT CLASSIFIED
46:48INFORMATION THAT THEY DIDN'T
46:48NEED TO SEE.
46:50NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE ACCUSED
46:52OF LEAKING IT.
46:56THERE WAS AN ENVIRONMENT THAT
46:57WAS QUITE PERMISSIVE.
46:58THE NORMAL RULE ABOUT HOW TO YOU
47:01HANDLE CLASSIFIED INFORMATION
47:02WERE NOT FOLLOWED.
47:03>> WERE THERE OTHER MEMBERS OF
47:06THE MILITARY HELD ACCOUNTABLE?
47:07>> SO FAR THE AIR FORCE THAT
47:08THEY DISCIPLINED 15 PEOPLE IN
47:10CONNECTION WITH THIS, WHICH IS A
47:12PRETTY SIGNIFICANT NUMBER.
47:13PERHAPS MOST NOTABLY, THE
47:16COLONEL IN COMMAND OF THE 102
47:19INTELLIGENCE WING WHERE TEIXEIRA
47:22WORKED HAS BEEN RELIEVED OF HIS
47:23COMMAND WHICH IS A RATHER SEVERE
47:28PUNISHMENT.
47:28SO FAR IT HAS REALLY FOCUSED ON
47:30THIS PARTICULAR UNIT WHERE THIS
47:34HAPPENED.
47:34I THINK WHAT WE FOUND IS THE
47:36SECURITY CLEARANCE PROCESS AND
47:37OTHER MECHANISMS PUT IN PLACE TO
47:39UMBRELLA SOMETHING LIKE THIS
47:42DON'T SEEM TO BE WORKING AND
47:46CAPTURING WHO THE NEXT TEIXEIRA
47:51MIGHT BE.
47:53IT IS NOT BEING DONE IN THIS ONE
47:55SIMPLE INVESTIGATION.
47:57>> I UNDERSTAND THE DEPARTMENT
47:58OF DEFENSE CANNOT PERFORM THE
47:59TIME OF FORENSIC DEEP DIVE THAT
48:02YOU MIGHT HAVE.
48:05BUT IT IS KIND OF ASTOUNDING TO
48:07ME THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO FIND SO
48:11MANY DIFFERENT CONNECTIONS TO
48:13JACK, WHAT HE'S BEEN POSTING,
48:17WHERE THE OTHER PLATFORMS WHERE
48:18HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN ACTIVE.
48:20AND THE MILITARY COULD NOT.
48:23IS THERE SOMETHING IN OUR INTAKE
48:27SYSTEM?
48:27SOMETHING IN OUR VETERANING
48:29PROCESS, SOMETHING THAT GETS
48:30PEOPLE A CLEARANCE THAT IS JUST
48:33BROKEN?
48:34>> THERE IS VERY LITTLE
48:35VISIBILITY ABOUT WHAT JACK WAS
48:38DOING ON THE INTERNET.
48:43HE WENT THROUGH WHAT SHOULD BE A
48:45VIGOROUS BACKGROUND CHECK FOR
48:50GETTING THIS TOP SECURITY
48:50KREERNS.
48:51WHAT WE CONFIRMED WAS THAT THE
48:52MILITARY DOES NOT REALLY LOOK AT
48:55PEOPLE'S ONLINE ACTIVITY IN A
48:58MEANINGFUL WAY.
48:59FOR SOMEONE LIKE TEIXEIRA,
49:01APPARENT OF HIS AGE WHO IS THE
49:03KIND OF PERSON WHO WOULD BE
49:05POPULATING THE LOWER RANKS OF
49:06THE MILITARY EVERY DAY, RIGHT?
49:10THEY ARE SPENDING THEIR ENTIRE
49:11LIVES ONLINE.
49:12IF THEY'RE GAMERS, OUTSIDE THEIR
49:19JOBS, THERE WERE RED FLAGS IN
49:21HIS HISTORY GOING BACK TO HIS
49:23HIGH SCHOOL YEARS WHERE HE WAS
49:24SUSPENDED FOR MAKING THREATS OF
49:27VIOLENCE AND RACIST COMMENTS AT
49:29SCHOOL.
49:29THAT WAS OVERLOOKED BUT THEY
49:30WERE AWARE OF IT.
49:32THEY WERE NOT AWARE OF ANY OF
49:35THE ACTIVITY THAT HE ENGAGED IN
49:38ONLINE.
49:38HE WAS ALREADY RACIST AND
49:40INVOLVING THREATS OF VIOLENCE AT
49:45SCHOOL.
49:46SO THAT'S THE ORIGIN OF THE
49:48TOTAL LACK OF VISIBILITY WHICH
49:50WAS THEN FOLLOWED BY A CASCADING
49:51A SERIES OF FAILURES THAT SAM
49:55DESCRIBED.
49:55>> WITHOUT NECESSARILY REPEATING
49:57SOME OF THE EXPLICIT STUFF, CAN
49:58YOU GIVE US AN IDEA OF WHAT
50:00THESE COMMUNITIES WERE LIKE ON
50:06DISCORD WHERE JACK TEIXEIRA WAS
50:09SHARING IT?
50:10>> MANY PEOPLE USE DISCOURT THAT
50:12AREN'T LIKE WHAT THESE KIDS WERE
50:14DOING.
50:15MANY.
50:16THESE KIDS SPENT TIME IN PLACES
50:20LIKE WHERE THE LANGUAGE CAN BE
50:21REALLY TOXIC, REALLY
50:25ANTISMITHIC.
50:25THE WAY DISCORD IS STRUCTURED,
50:29YOU CAN CREATE A COMMUNITY IN
50:32THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO BE.
50:37THAT'S A SELLING POINT.
50:39ANOTHER KEY ASPECT OF DISCORDS
50:42IS THAT THEY DON'T REALLY
50:43MONITOR WHAT IS GOING ON OUTSIDE
50:45NARROW CASES.
50:46FOR INSTANCE, A CHILD'S SEXUAL
50:49EXPLOITATION.
50:50IF THERE'S MATERIAL LIKE THAT,
50:51THEY MIGHT CATCH IT.
50:52IF YOU'RE RUNNING A SERVER WHERE
50:54YOU'RE MAKING RACIST COMMENTS OR
50:57IN HIS CASE, POSTING VIDEOS
51:00MAKING COMMENTS LIKE THAT.
51:03THEY DON'T APPEAR TO BE CATCHING
51:07THAT.
51:08WE FOUND THEY VIOLATED OTHER
51:10THINGS.
51:11HATE SPEECH, IMAGES OF GORE.
51:13THREATS OF VIOLENCE.
51:14THESE ARE ALL THINGS WE'VE
51:17DOCUMENTED.
51:18WERE WERE THESE PARTICULAR KIDS
51:20ALLOWED TO KEEP SHARING THIS
51:21KIND OF MATERIAL FOR MORE THAN A
51:22YEAR?
51:22>> THIS COME DOWN TO OUR ABILITY
51:26TO IDENTIFY WHAT IS HAPPENING IN
51:29THESE SPACES.
51:30WE RELY ON THIRD PARTIES TO HELP
51:33US WITH INTELLIGENCE.
51:35NONE OF THAT HAPPENED HERE.
51:37>> NONE OF IT WAS LIKELY TO
51:39LAMB.
51:39IF ONE OF THEM OBJECTED TO
51:45RACIST ANTISEMITISM COMMENTS, IT
51:47MIGHT HAVE BEEN FLAGGED BUT THEY
51:48DIDN'T BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL IN
51:49ON IT.
51:50YOU'RE SAYING THE COMPANY HAS NO
51:54WAY OF MONITORING FOR THAT ON
51:56ITS OWN?
51:56>> WE REQUIRE THAT PEOPLE ARE
51:58HELPING TO KEEP DISCORD SAFE.
52:04WE DO SCAN IF PARTICULAR FOR
52:07CHILD SEX ABUSE MATERIAL.
52:08THAT IS UNAMBIGUOUSLY BAD.
52:10WHEN IT COMES TO OTHER CLASSES
52:13OF ABUSE, WE ALL NEED TO
52:15COLLECTIVELY THINK ABOUT, ARE WE
52:18JUST DIVING INTO SOMEONE'S
52:20PRIVACY?
52:21>> WE HAVE IN THE LAST 15 TWIRG
52:22YEARS, LIVED THROUGH VERY HIGH
52:25PROFILE LEAK SITUATIONS.
52:26WHETHER IT IS SQUEAKY LEAKS OR
52:28EDWARD HE SNOWDEN OR CHELSEA
52:32MANNING.
52:33AND OFTEN AFTER ANTIACTION
52:35REPORTS, THEY SAY HERE'S HOW
52:37WE'LL BUCKLE DOWN.
52:38HERE'S HOW WE'LL PREVENT IT IN
52:41THE FUTURE.
52:42WHY ARE WE BACK HERE?
52:47WHO KNOWS WHAT IS BEING SHARED
52:49TODAY?
52:50>> THEY ALL HAVE SOMETHING IN
52:54COMMON WITH WHAT TEIXEIRA IS
52:57ALLEGED TO HAVE DONE.
52:59SOMEONE WITH TOP SECRET
53:00CLEARANCE AND HAD ACCESS TO ALL
53:02THIS INFORMATION ABUSED THE
53:04PRIVILEGED ACCESS THEY HAVE.
53:08THE MILITARY COME IN AND TRIES
53:09TO TWEAK THE SYSTEM TO MAKE IT
53:11LESS LIKELY THAT WOULD HAPPEN.
53:13FUNDAMENTALLY, THERE IS NOT A
53:14CHANGE TO THIS SORT OF THE BASIC
53:17ARCHITECTURE OF THE SYSTEM.
53:18THAT POST 9/11, THE INTELLIGENCE
53:22COMMUNITY, THE GOVERNMENT AS A
53:23WHOLE MADE A DECISION TO MAKE
53:25CLASSIFIED INTELLIGENCE MUCH
53:27MORE WIDELY AVAILABLE TO A BROAD
53:29VARIETY OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE
53:32CLEARANCES.
53:33AND THERE WAS A REASON FOR THAT.
53:34BEFORE 9/11, INFORMATION WAS
53:39SILOED.
53:39IT WAS OVERPROTECTED.
53:40PEOPLE AT THE FBI DIDN'T KNOW
53:42WHAT THE CIA KNEW ABOUT 19
53:44PEOPLE WHO WERE ABOUT TO GET ON
53:48AIRPLANES.
53:49SO THEY TRIED TO CORRECT THAT BY
53:50SPREADING OUT THE ACCESS.
53:51WHAT THEY'VE NEVER DONE IS TRIED
53:52TO REGULATE ON AN INDIVIDUAL
53:54LEVEL WHO GETS TO SEE CERTAIN
53:57DOCUMENTS AND WHO DOESN'T.
53:58WE'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE INCLUDING
54:00LAWMAKERS IN OUR REPORTING WHO
54:01SAID, LISTEN, THERE'S TECHNOLOGY
54:03AVAILABLE THAT COULD ESSENTIALLY
54:04MAKE IT SO A GUY LIKE JACK
54:07TEIXEIRA WHO IS JUST THE
54:08MAINTENANCE PERSON, IF HE'S
54:11SPOTTED LINGERING ON DOCUMENTS,
54:13CALLING UP DOCUMENTS, SEARCHING
54:15FOR THEM, THAT COULD FLAG
54:16SOMEONE TO SAY, WAIT A MINUTE.
54:18IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE YOU'RE
54:19DOING SOMETHING THAT TRACKS WITH
54:21WHAT YOUR JOB RESPONSIBILITIES
54:24ARE.
54:24WE REALLY DON'T HAVE A SYSTEM ON
54:26A PERVASIVE SYSTEMWIDE LEVEL TO
54:29GATE THAT ACCESS.
54:30AND WHY THE MILITARY IS NOT
54:31DOING IT?
54:32IT COULD BE HARD, IT COULD BE
54:34CUMBERSOME AND THERE'S A LEVEL
54:36OF BUREAUCRATIC INERTIA HERE.
54:39THIS IS THE WAY THEY'RE DOING IT
54:41FOR 20 YEARS.
54:42WITH EVERY ONE OF THESE LEAKS,
54:46IT IS THE COST OF DOING
54:48BUSINESS.
54:48WE'LL ALWAYS HAVE AN INSIDER
54:49THREAT LIKE THIS.
54:51THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY DON'T
54:53LEAK INFORMATION.
54:53WHEN THEY DO, IT CAN BE
54:56INCREDIBLY DAMAGING.
54:58REPORTERS FROM THE "WASHINGTON
54:59POST" BUT ALSO CO-PRODUCERS OF
55:00THE FRONT LINE DOCUMENTARY
55:02CALLED THE DISCORD LEAKS.
55:04THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
55:07>> THANK YOU.
55:08>>> FINALLY, WE MARK THE FINAL
55:09DAY OF HANNUKKAH WITH A LITTLE
55:11MIRACLE TO CELEBRATE THIS
55:15HANNUKKAH SEASON.
55:16THE 99-YEAR-OLD HOLOCAUST
55:18SURVIVOR CO-FOUNDED THE
55:20HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR BAND ABOUT
55:21TEN YEARS AGO.
55:22THIS WEEK HE GOT THE GIG OF A
55:24LIFETIME.
55:25FULFILLING A PERSONAL DREAM AT
55:28THE WHITE HOUSE WITH THE U.S.
55:29MARINE BAND.
55:31TAKE A LISTEN.
55:35♪♪
55:45AND WE'RE WISHING SAUL A VERY
55:47HAPPY HANNUKKAH.
55:47THAT DOES IT FOR OUR PROGRAM
55:49TONIGHT.
55:49IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S
55:51COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH
55:53NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS
55:56LETTER.
55:57JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.