Fitbaw Talk: Rangers keep Hearts hopes at bay plus - is the 3pm blackout pointless?
Martyn, Ben and Barry join together to talk about Heart's defeat at Ibrox and if it has scuppered Hearts chances of the title.
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00:00 [MUSIC]
00:07 Hello and welcome to National World Football Talk,
00:09 your nan's favorite football podcast, Ken.
00:12 It's a show where we break down the latest news and
00:14 results from around the Scottish Premiership and across the SPFL.
00:17 I'm your host Martin Simpson,
00:19 joined again this week by Barry Anderson and Ben Banks.
00:23 We're gonna be discussing the latest round of Scottish Premiership results.
00:26 We're also gonna be looking ahead to the Edinburgh Derby this midweek.
00:30 And we're gonna be discussing the 3pm blackout and
00:33 how that impacts games across Scottish football.
00:36 Whether it's a thing of the past and needs scrap or
00:38 whether it's something we should look to retain.
00:40 So guys, let's just start off I think this week.
00:46 Let's go to Ibrox where it was a massive win for Rangers against Hearts.
00:51 We obviously spoke not that long ago Barry about was there any chance Hearts could
00:56 get a positive result here and they could start looking upwards at the table,
00:59 maybe close the gap on second.
01:01 I think that theory is probably dead and buried now, is it?
01:04 >> I wouldn't say dead and buried because I still think they have the potential,
01:12 depending on results in the next couple of games,
01:14 they have the potential to close in on second place.
01:16 I mean, Rangers are not gonna get anywhere near Rangers,
01:21 I think that the weekend proved that.
01:23 I don't think anybody realistically thought that Hearts would start
01:26 on that title challenge as good as their recent form had been before Saturday.
01:30 So I think, yeah, obviously they're comfortably in third place and
01:35 could reign Celtic in to a degree, as I say,
01:38 if they get results in the next couple of games.
01:39 Saturday was a little bit of a wake up call for them.
01:44 Similar to some other games recently where they had started quite slowly,
01:50 played passive in midfield, getting overrun a bit, and
01:55 obviously lost an L of goals and just couldn't recover after that.
01:59 They lost a second, then a three-nil down by half time,
02:01 it's a huge damage limitation at that point.
02:04 They had got away with it in some previous games, in fact,
02:07 showed some really good resilience in the second half of some games during the 12
02:11 game unbeaten run to come back and put the opposition under the caution,
02:17 really pin them in their own half and they got the rewards from that in those games
02:20 and they simply couldn't do that.
02:21 I think the Rangers were too strong, particularly in midfield,
02:24 they totally dominated the middle of the back and
02:27 that's pretty much what underpinned their five-nil win.
02:30 For anyone that didn't see the game, Barry,
02:33 was five-nil a fair reflection on the balance of play?
02:36 You have to say it was, yeah.
02:39 It could have been more than five.
02:41 Xander Clark pulled off three very good saves in the first half,
02:45 a couple in the second half.
02:47 If it wasn't for him, then it could have been an even heavier defeat.
02:51 I think the hearts didn't start particularly well,
02:56 didn't start quickly, Rangers did.
02:58 The early goal, can I just set the tone?
03:00 When you're losing a goal after a minute and 17 seconds,
03:03 then you're always up against it, especially away at Rangers or Celtic.
03:07 There was no real signs of recovery at any point.
03:11 There was a little spoil in the first half where Hearts had got the ball into the Rangers' half
03:16 and we're playing a little bit of football there for 10, 15 minutes
03:19 and doing a bit of pressing.
03:21 They lost the second goal not long after that and it was pretty much curtains.
03:26 Ben, you were at Fair Park this weekend.
03:30 Rangers obviously flexed their muscles and came out with a dominant performance.
03:34 Celtic, on the other hand, watching that game,
03:38 they really sort of rescued it at the end there, didn't they?
03:41 You would have said probably on the balance of play,
03:43 Motherwell might have just been worth a point in that match.
03:46 It's a tough...
03:48 First half, Celtic were 6-7.
03:51 Theo Baer had the freedom of third part really behind their defensive line
03:56 and Jack Vale and Liam Scales and Mike Narochie were just having total howlers of games.
04:02 They were really, really unnerved, nervous when they were passing and things like that.
04:07 Probably could have been a couple of goals down.
04:10 Mullow's goal is really good and obviously speaking about Celtic,
04:14 but Lennon Miller, I thought yesterday, really showed what a great talent he's going to be in the years to come.
04:20 I would imagine Mullow won't...
04:22 You're in the stage of enjoying while he's there.
04:24 That turn for...
04:25 He does run Cal McGregor at 17 and the finish is really good as well,
04:29 but it's all Lennon Miller and he's unlucky scoring the same time.
04:32 So I thought that was a really impressive game from him.
04:34 But I thought Mullow after halftime, they came at Celtic
04:39 and then in the second half, it was kind of like, "All right, we're winning now."
04:44 And the tactics seemed to change.
04:46 Celtic came in with a bit more intent.
04:48 You've got to say there was a bit more balls into the box and things like that.
04:51 Adam Ida made a huge difference.
04:52 I know Celtic recruitment has been lamented in January,
04:55 but he's been the difference now to 90 plus stoppage times.
04:59 So a winner, I know, Luis Palma got the third one,
05:01 but it was really the second one that ended the game to massive contributions to the title race.
05:07 And Mullow just seemed to get deeper and deeper and deeper.
05:10 Stuart Kettlewell spoke after the game about fitness, perhaps,
05:13 playing his part in it.
05:14 You could definitely tell that Mullow looked out of gas by 60 minutes
05:16 and then Celtic just started pitting them off.
05:19 And when the board went up for six minutes,
05:21 I don't think there was many Mullow fans in that state of mind,
05:25 "Right, we're going to get through the line here and get a point."
05:28 It was almost like a feeling of resignation when the board came up for six minutes.
05:32 But Celtic go over the line, I mean, that's all that really matters at this stage.
05:35 They are taking a bit of a pounding from all angles, really.
05:38 And if they'd have lost or drawn this one, then it would have been,
05:43 I mean, there'd have been reports of crisis and things like that,
05:46 I think, this morning and the wheels falling off.
05:48 And Rodgers' future would have been firmly in the spotlight.
05:51 But they get those two late goals and then all of a sudden,
05:54 they're two points behind.
05:56 Even though the teams, you can tell,
05:57 Rangers are in a better moment at the minute than Celtic.
06:00 All it takes is for Rangers to drop points, Celtic win,
06:03 and then they're back on level terms.
06:04 So it's very, very tight at the minute.
06:07 And as much as Celtic can't play well,
06:09 they just need to keep winning games at this minute.
06:14 Yeah, on Lenin Miller, just to single out two players from that match,
06:19 is Lenin Miller, first of all, every time I watch that kid play,
06:22 he's just, the next time I watch him,
06:24 he's somehow even more impressive than he was the time before.
06:27 He just seems to be getting better and better.
06:29 I know we watch these young players sometimes,
06:32 and it's hard to believe given how composed and talented beyond their years they are.
06:37 But the fact that he's only 17 years old,
06:40 I think he's going to have his choice of suitors in the summer.
06:44 I would expect you would see one of like sort of Europe's biggest clubs
06:48 picking them up for their academy.
06:50 A Liverpool or a Chelsea or a Man United or something like that
06:53 will bring them in to play in part of their sort of under 18, under 21 setup.
06:58 Or I imagine you'll also probably have offers further abroad
07:02 and from clubs that might see him more as first team ready despite his young age.
07:06 I think regardless, Moverwell are going to take in a significant sum on him,
07:11 you have to believe.
07:12 But the player I want to speak about Ben is Adam Ida.
07:15 Celtic got a bit of stick signing him in January, I think it's fair to say.
07:20 They'd been linked with Bojan Mijovski for a while.
07:23 There was brief kind of unfounded likes with Lawrence Shaiklin.
07:27 Certainly, I think Celtic fans wanted them to splash a bit of cash
07:30 in another striker and instead they brought in a guy on loan from Norwich City
07:35 who wasn't getting much of a look in the English Championship.
07:39 But I think it's fair to say he's probably proved quite a lot of doubters wrong already, hasn't he?
07:44 Yeah, I think you would need to say on the basis of maybe the last month,
07:48 Kiyoko doesn't look like the same player this season.
07:51 It's almost like he thrives on good passes being played in him and things like that.
07:57 And runs in behind and Rodgers just isn't about that.
07:59 Rodgers' team is about passing you to death.
08:02 It was a bit, you got a bit more towards sort of Postacoglou style sort of football yesterday
08:07 when they just started lobbing things into the box.
08:10 That's not usually how Rodgers plays and Kiyoko, Adam Ida at the minute,
08:14 you need to see he's a better fit for the system.
08:17 And you could tell that as soon as he came on,
08:19 he was a total handful for the Mullow defenders and Mullow changed as well.
08:23 They changed three defenders.
08:25 I think three defenders came on in the park and came out the back lane and things like that.
08:28 So with all that disruption in their back lane plus Adam Ida then coming on and causing a handful,
08:34 he's fast, he's quite powerful.
08:36 His header, really, really good for the first one.
08:38 Obviously, the second one's an instinctive finish, but the first one's a really good header.
08:43 Let's look elsewhere in the Scottish Premiership from the weekend.
08:46 A big result for Hiberne and Barry getting a 2-1 win at home to Dundee.
08:54 Maizan Milodi is 81st minute winner.
08:56 They are not long after Luke McCowan had pulled it back for Dundee.
09:00 Would it have been unfair to say that that might have been the top six wrapped up
09:05 had Dundee won that game, even though they were probably going to be happy to leave Easter Road?
09:09 What point had they got it?
09:10 Or do you actually think Hibs, more from their confidence and momentum standpoint,
09:16 do you think that might have killed Hibs' top six push off had they not got that big result?
09:23 Yes, I think it very well could have killed their top six hopes off.
09:26 It was a massive result for them and against a decent Dundee team as well.
09:30 I think every time I see Dundee, I'm impressed with them just in terms of the progress that their players have made under Tony Docherty.
09:37 He's turned players that were already decent players into very good players.
09:41 The likes of Luke McCowan that you're mentioning there,
09:43 Lyle Cameron as well in midfield is one that I like.
09:46 That wasn't an easy game and for Hibs to get a win there was massive fraud.
09:50 I think that's their first league win since 9th of December.
09:54 They beat Livingston away 9th of December.
09:56 I don't think they've won in the league since then.
09:57 Certainly with the Edinburgh Derby coming up Wednesday night at Tyne Castle, that's huge for them.
10:03 I get three points in the bag, it'll do a lot for their confidence going away to Hearts,
10:07 which is obviously a different proposition altogether.
10:09 Just before we get to the Edinburgh Derby, we just want to quickly ask Ben,
10:14 looking at some of the other results, another defeat for Aberdeen,
10:18 obviously a positive result for Kilmarnock, but is Neil Warnock's kind of,
10:24 "Let's have a bit of fun, I'm just happy to be up here in Scottish football."
10:28 Do you think that shtick is starting to wear a bit thin,
10:32 given that results really aren't picking up the way they should at Aberdeen?
10:38 You asked last week, did Aberdeen get dragged into a relegation match,
10:43 where one result, I think they're five points, Ross County are five points away.
10:47 Ross County have won the same amount of games as Aberdeen this season.
10:51 And if they get some more points over them, then all of a sudden, they're getting dragged in a wee bit.
10:57 And I think he's not going very well about his business of dispelling the myth that he's on a holiday
11:03 and just wants a wee jolly, a nice look at Scottish football.
11:06 The thing is as well, the style of play, it's not actually getting any better that for Ross,
11:11 it's arguably got worse.
11:13 Which, you know, it's weird when we warn it in that
11:17 he's used to saving teams from relegation and things like that,
11:20 but Aberdeen, I don't think have ever really been in that.
11:23 Might be a good thing now.
11:24 Well, it might be a good thing now, but when he's initially came in,
11:27 it's a totally different ream.
11:30 It feels like he's an actor in the wrong movie type thing.
11:34 This isn't really his shtick.
11:36 Trying to get teams into top six in Europe and things like that,
11:38 it's coming in with the Cape in November and trying to save teams that are marooned at the bottom of leagues.
11:44 That's not really the case at Aberdeen.
11:47 We're going to take a short break now.
11:48 We'll be right back.
11:49 Welcome back to National World's Fitbit Talk.
12:09 Let's look ahead now to the big game on Wednesday night, the Edinburgh Derby.
12:14 Barry, I think Hearts are still probably going to be heavy favourites for this one,
12:18 but the results at the weekend, they are, as we mentioned,
12:21 Hearts taking a hammering at Ibrox and Hibs getting a really positive result against Dundee.
12:26 It just adds a little bit more, maybe puts the cat amongst the pigeons a bit.
12:31 Yeah, it does.
12:32 I think I'm expecting a reasonably close game on Wednesday.
12:35 The last two derbies have been close this season.
12:38 2-2 draw at Tyne Castle earlier in the season,
12:41 and then a 1-0 win for Hearts just Christmas there at Easter Road.
12:45 So, I don't see there being a 3-4 goal victory for either side here.
12:52 I think it will be close again.
12:53 The thing that Hearts have got in their favour, obviously, is their home side at Tyne Castle.
12:56 After losing 5-0 at Rangers, the players will be expecting a reaction from themselves,
13:03 and the supporters will be demanding a reaction at home to Hibs.
13:06 So, they need to come out all guns blazing.
13:09 Hibs, obviously, will be a bit more confident after beating Dundee at the weekend, as we said.
13:14 They're getting a couple of goals there, so that will do their confidence no harm whatsoever.
13:20 Yeah, I don't know, Ben.
13:22 Obviously, we mentioned earlier the 1-0 win against Livingston that Barry mentioned.
13:27 That was also the last time Hibs kept a clean sheet in the league,
13:31 and that was on the 9th of December.
13:33 Their defence, obviously, has been an area of concern.
13:36 Their January recruitment was, you know, the Hibs fans clearly wanted some experienced cover in at centre-back.
13:42 Instead, they got a couple of young loanees from England,
13:45 one of whom, unfortunately for Hibs, has had to now return back to his parent club in Owen Bevan.
13:51 And they're coming up against the best striker in Scotland at the moment.
13:55 How do you see that going?
13:56 Well, Fischer's in to probably pick better opponents to face on Wednesday.
14:02 It's going to be pretty tough, I would imagine.
14:05 Netter-Trentis as well, who I haven't seen parts from him and things like that,
14:10 but obviously, this is a different test altogether, coming up against Shanklin.
14:15 The way he's playing, I think I looked over the weekend,
14:17 I think Shanklin, in terms of Europe's top 10 to 15 leagues,
14:21 I think Shanklin's in the top 20 in terms of goals and assists across Europe.
14:25 His numbers are stagnant, but I think the thing with Shanklin,
14:28 people obviously see the goals and that's the main thing,
14:32 but his overall play, the way he comes almost into an attack midfield area
14:37 and links the play as well, he pretty much just, "Fine, I'll do it all myself."
14:42 Then if it gets played into that final third area, he'll start the move, he'll finish the move,
14:47 which isn't uncommon for him as well.
14:49 So, it's more than just defending a penalty box striker for Wilfisch
14:54 and whoever plays alongside him on Wednesday.
14:57 It's going to be, how do you keep aware of where he is at all times and things like that?
15:02 It's not just a case of balls into the box, can you deal with him there?
15:05 You need to deal with him pretty much everywhere up until about 25, 30 yards away from your own goal.
15:10 He scores left foot, right foot, headers, long-range shots, scores all types of goals.
15:15 So, it's an unenviable task for the Hebs back lane on Wednesday.
15:21 How much stock do you put into this continued slow start that you mentioned earlier in the show
15:27 that Hart seemed to be having, Barry?
15:29 Does it feel like Hebs could exploit that?
15:31 Obviously, being away from home, they could go out and just go hell for Lever
15:35 in the opening 15, 20 minutes and try and force an error.
15:39 Or do you think, because it's not as if they've got nothing to lose,
15:43 really they could find themselves 2-0 down in the derby early on.
15:46 Do you think we'll see a tentative start from both sides?
15:50 Or do you think one or the other might look to stamp some authority on the game early on?
15:57 Yes, I certainly think that Hart will look to basically come out of the traps,
16:03 flying out of the traps and making sure that they're going after Hebs right from the first whistle
16:07 because it's been a kind of recurring theme as we touched on earlier over the last 10 or 12 games or so
16:14 where they've lost the opening goal or it's been quite a passive first half from them
16:19 and they've had to really recover in the second half.
16:22 They want to get out of that habit for obvious reasons, but they can't afford to do that in a derby
16:28 because if they do sit off them, I don't expect them to sit off Hebs,
16:31 but if they were to give Hebs time and space, then Hebs will exploit that time and space.
16:36 The difficult thing for their away team at Tincastle is to get on the front foot
16:40 and take control like that and start commanding midfield areas and be the dominant force.
16:46 I'm not sure Hebs have got that in them to do that right from kick-off.
16:50 If Hearts have the right mindset and are on the front foot and are pressing opponents into their own half
16:56 and it's high-tempo, really dynamic football, then I would expect that will give them the advantage.
17:02 You'll be looking at people like Neuenhof, Beringame, Scott Fraser if he starts, which I think he probably will.
17:11 You need them to be at their most energetic and dynamic in the middle of the park to try and get control for Hearts.
17:18 Personally, I think this is the sort of game that suits Cami Devlin.
17:22 It might be a suggestion to bring him back in. I'm not 100% convinced that that will happen,
17:27 but I do think that this type of atmosphere and the type of tempo that Hebs need in this game,
17:32 which suit Cami's game, Hearts have worked quite hard behind the scenes to get him working on it.
17:40 He's got positional sense, he's got ball retention as well as the dynamism and the aggression that he brings in the middle of the park.
17:46 So I'm quite keen to see how he fares when he gets back into the starting lineup.
17:51 I do think Wednesday night would be a good time to do that.
17:54 Let's finish this week's show just by discussing a topic that crops up every so often.
18:01 That's the 3pm blackout across football in the UK.
18:05 I wanted to just get your opinions. Is this still something that has a place in Scottish football or in UK-wide football?
18:12 Or is it something that we really need to consider scrapping the next time the TV deal comes around?
18:18 Because the thing that brought it to my attention was that when a couple of Fridays back for Rafe Rovers against Dundee United,
18:27 it was obviously a Friday night, it wasn't a Saturday game.
18:31 That game was live on the TV and 8,000 people were at Start Spark for that game.
18:36 I believe that was Rafe's biggest attendance in quite a significant number of years.
18:42 Evidence like that would kind of suggest that just because you make the game available on TV,
18:48 that doesn't mean supporters are suddenly going to stop going to the matches.
18:53 And that always seemed to be the thing at the forefront of this debate as to why we needed the blackout.
18:59 What do you think, Ben?
19:01 I think, without wanting to make it too simplistic, I think sometimes it can be game by game.
19:08 Like Rafe Rovers vs Dundee United, Rafe Rovers haven't been in the top flight, I don't think, in my lifetime.
19:15 I don't think Rafe Rovers have been in the top flight, certainly not for a wee while anyway.
19:19 And a big game against their closest rivals and things like that really need to win the game.
19:24 If you're a Rafe Rovers fan, they're going to probably turn out in numbers, no matter whether that was being broadcast on the moon or wherever.
19:33 Whereas, you maybe look at Livingston vs Motherwell on Sky,
19:38 how many Motherwell fans, for example, are going to travel through Livingston on a Wednesday night to watch a game that's probably going to not...
19:46 I mean, you're going to be wearing crash helmets probably watching that, in terms of balls being up in the air and things like that.
19:51 How many Motherwell fans are going to want to travel through and watch that in Livingston when you can sit in the house and watch it?
19:57 I think sometimes you need to view it game by game.
19:59 But I think generally speaking, I think as football moves forward, I just can't see how the blackout stays.
20:07 You see it down south, I mean, dodgy streams and things like that, people will just put them on the fire stick.
20:12 I think there's probably revenue to be found in these additional games that could have on the TV as well, in terms of the Sky deal.
20:19 Probably for people above me to be discussing those type of things.
20:23 But I think by football's evolution in the modern world, that eventually it's going to go at some point, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.
20:33 I think what they need to work out is when it probably gets to that point, how is Scottish football best ready to capitalise on the potential revenue that could come with that?
20:43 Or on the flip side of that, if it's actually going to be an editor thing, how do they safeguard the clubs and things like that, ticket revenue?
20:48 Because that is still the main driver in Scottish football.
20:51 We're not England with a massive TV deal.
20:53 Fans through the gate for pretty much 90% of clubs is still the main revenue driver.
20:59 So how do you protect that if that is going to have an impact on it?
21:04 Yeah, I would say it's a separate debate how much faith we have in the powers that be to maximise revenue in this game.
21:13 Just quickly, Barry, along the lines of what Ben was saying, where do you stand?
21:19 Do you take a similar view or do you maybe have an opposing opinion on the 3pm blackout?
21:23 Yeah, I do think it will go sooner rather than later.
21:27 I think you probably need a hybrid arrangement, whether it's game by game or whatever.
21:31 But you do need certain games that you would say, "Right, we can show that at 3 o'clock, but no, we're not going to show that one for all of it."
21:36 If it's a huge game and it might prevent people from going along to another game further down the league.
21:40 I think it's the smaller clubs that you probably need to look out for.
21:43 I don't just mean smaller premiership clubs, I mean further down the chain, League 1, League 2, even Lowland League.
21:48 And the clubs at the bottom of the pyramid in the west of Scotland, east of Scotland, league that sort of thing.
21:54 We need to look out for them as well because they will lose fans that they really need on a Saturday afternoon if there's too many big games getting shown at 3 o'clock.
22:05 Yeah, I actually think that's a fair point and it might be slightly overlooked.
22:10 We are obviously saying, "If a game's on TV, will fans of that club not go?"
22:16 But like you say, does it stack up?
22:20 Because I think across English football, attendances in general are actually really positive.
22:26 I don't know the exact figures, but I've certainly not seen anything to suggest that they're dropping down.
22:31 And obviously, like Ben said, there are less than legal ways of accessing these games.
22:37 We're not going to promote them, but we know they exist out there.
22:40 So if you're a fan of a National League North team down in England or whatever, you do have the choice to watch your Man City's and your Chelsea's, even though they are playing at 3 o'clock.
22:50 But still, people are going out and supporting their local teams.
22:55 So I don't actually know how much of an impact.
22:57 But then again, as we know, Scottish football is its own kettle of fish.
23:01 And suddenly, if you're able to watch every Rangers and Celtic match with ease, that actually could potentially have an impact on clubs further down the chain, sort of Highland Lowland League and below.
23:14 So there is definitely merits to both sides.
23:17 We're a wee while away before the next TV deals up.
23:21 I think it's not going to be something that Scottish football sticks its neck out on. It's going to be, I think, a UK wide sort of agreement if it is something we decide to scrap.
23:30 And I think we do need something. It's had its time and it does need to go.
23:34 But there does need to be something that does replace it just to ensure that extra bit of protection.
23:40 Anyway, that's all we've got time for on this week's show.
23:43 Thanks very much, Barry. Thank you, Ben.
23:45 We'll be back again next week with more Flip That Talk.
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