Remembering Sunderland legend Charlie Hurley.
With host James Copley and guests Rob Mason and Phil Smith.
With host James Copley and guests Rob Mason and Phil Smith.
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00:00Charlie knew and understood his place in the affections of Sunderland supporters.
00:07The thing that I've sort of taken away from hearing about Charlie Hurley over the years
00:11was that he was absolutely made for Sunderland in terms of his playing style.
00:30Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast, Sad Circumstances, in which we join you today
00:40after the sad passing of Sunderland legend Charlie Hurley, which was announced Thursday 25th April.
00:47I'm joined today, it's a privilege to be joined by club historian Rob Mason.
00:52Rob, how are you doing?
00:53I'm fine, thank you.
00:55Obviously, like everybody else, very sad this week at the death of the player of the century,
01:00but yeah, in general, absolutely fine.
01:03I'll be even better if Sunderland can win at Watford tomorrow.
01:05Absolutely, and I'm also joined by the Echoes chief football writer, Phil Smith.
01:10Phil, sad news yesterday?
01:13Yeah, really sad news, but really moving as well to see how the news of Charlie's death
01:20was received and the tributes I found both moving and quite inspiring as well, really,
01:25for someone who, you know, his career ended quite a long time ago,
01:28but to still be remembered so vividly by so many people and, you know,
01:33what a legacy in the game Charlie Hurley had, and not just at Sunderland either,
01:37you know, at Millwall, at Ireland, his management career, really sad,
01:43but also I thought really inspiring and really moving to see what an impression
01:46he made on so many people as a footballer and a man as well.
01:50Absolutely, and Rob, Phil mentions it there, but it's testament to his legend, really, isn't it?
01:56The fact that me and Phil are both around the 30 age mark,
02:00and one of the first things we learned about Sunderland was that Charlie Hurley
02:04was the greatest centre-half the world had ever seen, and there'll be people younger than us
02:07that know that story, know that chant, know of his name,
02:10and it's remarkable, really, in the modern world that his legend lives on.
02:14Of course, now, because you two lads are, you know, a big Sunderland supporter,
02:19and because you follow Sunderland, you've got a much, much, much better knowledge
02:23of Sunderland than most people, but if you walk around, you know,
02:28your friends in and around Sunderland of your age, who are maybe not so football-orientated,
02:35and said to them, name me the Sunderland players from before your lifetime
02:40that you can think of. Well, they'd come up with players from the 73 Cup team.
02:44They'd probably come up with Len Shackleton. They'd probably come up with Rach Carter.
02:48They'd come up with Charlie Hurley. After that, it depends on your knowledge of football
02:53as to whether you start talking about other greats who are perhaps not so well-remembered
02:57as they should be, like, say, Bobby Gurney or Charlie Buchan,
03:00or players from either further past. Ted Doig, for instance,
03:03one of only two men to win four championship medals at Sunderland.
03:07And I think if you asked 100 Sunderland supporters in a stadium alike next week
03:11at the Sheff World Game, who's Jamie Miller, not many people would probably be able to tell you,
03:16but he is the other man to win four championship medals at Sunderland,
03:19and the first of only four men to score five goals in a game for Sunderland.
03:24So, what we're talking about there is the true legends of the football club,
03:30but Charlie is absolutely one of them, quite rightly so,
03:33and is one that people will remember through football folklore,
03:37because even for people of your age, you've had those stories passed down to you
03:42by your family, by your friends. Everybody does know that Charlie Hurley
03:47is indeed the greatest centre half the world has ever seen,
03:50and that's why he's in football folklore. And on top of that, I would say,
03:54the thing about Charlie, and in my experience of the people I've had the privilege to know,
04:00the really, really, really true greats, Bobby Gurney, Jimmy Montgomery,
04:06Niall Quinn, Charlie Hurley, with what those people have all got in common,
04:11is every single one of them was as good off the pitch as they were on it.
04:17Absolutely. We'll come on to Charlie's career and life in a second,
04:22but Phil, I wanted to talk a little bit about Martin O'Neill,
04:25who posted a tribute to Charlie Hurley on social media.
04:28I think he was also on BBC Radio Newcastle's Talk Sport last night.
04:32And again, that's testament to the reach that Charlie Hurley had,
04:36that it was him that inspired a young Martin O'Neill to support Sunderland,
04:40started his journey through football, two-time European Cup winner,
04:43managed Aston Villa, managed Sunderland, and it all started with Charlie Hurley.
04:48It's incredible the power that man had in terms of his footballing ability
04:52and how it inspired people, not just of Martin O'Neill's age, but of our age as well.
04:57Yeah, there's some brilliant passages in Martin O'Neill's autobiography,
05:01which he released last year. I think it's called On Days Like These,
05:04which I assume is a Van Morrison nod. I'm not 100% sure,
05:07but I would make a fair guess that I think it is.
05:10And actually, it was interesting because I got that book because I was interested
05:14to know Martin speaking about his time as manager of Sunderland.
05:18And he did talk about that, but the passages that really stuck with me
05:21actually from that book were as Martin described his childhood at boarding school
05:26and how he used to get into trouble because he used to sit with his little radio
05:29under his pillow at night listening to Sunderland play Man United in the FA Cup,
05:34which might be a game we come on to with Rob in a bit.
05:38But I think those passages really stuck with me because I think we all,
05:43growing up, had those memories, didn't we, of listening to Sunderland
05:46on the radio late at night, that kind of stuff.
05:48And I think that was obviously, and we'll probably go on to talk about that season,
05:52when I think Sunderland eventually went on to win promotion, didn't they,
05:54after losing in the FA Cup quarterfinal at Manchester United.
05:57And that was obviously a very iconic team.
06:00And I think Charlie was almost the pillar of that team, if you like,
06:03sort of the spiritual leader as well as sort of the centre of the graph.
06:07And yeah, I think he clearly had a huge impact on a generation of Sunderland fans,
06:13I think, and Martin O'Neill's kind of sort of lovely story, I think, is a nod to that.
06:17And the thing I always think about Charlie Hurley is,
06:19if you mention Charlie Hurley to any Sunderland fan,
06:22they'll tell you one of three things.
06:23He was either their favourite player, he was their parents' favourite player,
06:27or he was their grandparents' favourite player.
06:29So whether you saw him or not, you know, Charlie Hurley has a history,
06:32he has a deep meaning to your family, and ultimately, isn't it?
06:35That's what football is all about.
06:36It's the threads that we sort of pass through each other.
06:39And yeah, I would really recommend if there's any Sunderland fans
06:44who haven't read Martin's book, it's really worth reading.
06:48And he gives you a great sense of why Charlie meant a lot, I think,
06:52to a lot of Sunderland fans of that generation.
06:55Just to add to that, Phil, I'm certain that Martin's book was named
07:00after the band Morrison Track, but if you talk Martin and music,
07:03he's a real passionate, it's the Yardbirds.
07:05Now, that is a name from before...
07:06Brilliant band.
07:07Yeah. Oh, James has even...
07:09I've heard of the Yardbirds, yeah, brilliant band.
07:12But yeah, Martin, of course, played for Brian Clough,
07:16was very influenced by Brian Clough, massively influenced by Brian Clough.
07:20And of course, as with Andy Reid, who I was talking to yesterday,
07:24again, who was at Forest with all the Clough connections,
07:29Cloughie, of course, was centre-forward in the team,
07:33Charlie was centre-half in.
07:34So the links in football always come full circle.
07:37No, they do, and let's talk about some of those links.
07:40So Charlie Hurley, born 4th October 1936.
07:43I was also born on the 4th of October, not in 1936, obviously,
07:46but I felt like I had to get that in there.
07:48Born in County Cork, but moved to London.
07:51Played, Rob, for Millwall, 105 league appearances.
07:53Now, if ever there was another club to play for other than Sunderland
07:58that might prepare you for the pressure and the working-class mentality,
08:01especially in those days, it was Millwall.
08:03He then joined Sunderland in 1957 for rather a lot of money,
08:07and it didn't really get off to the best start for Charlie Hurley.
08:10Tell us about that, because it's maybe a lesson to us
08:13not to write players off, because his start could be categorised
08:16as a bit disastrous, really.
08:18Well, yeah, I mean, I think everybody's probably familiar
08:20with the tale from Charlie, and when he was signed,
08:24and when he signed for Sunderland from Millwall,
08:28he was already really making his name in football.
08:31A couple of the big London clubs had shown a lot of interest in him.
08:34He'd made his international debut for the Republic of Ireland
08:37against England.
08:39He'd played in European football.
08:42It was the very embryonic days of European football.
08:45In the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, there was a London Select XI
08:48that would play, and Charlie had played for that London Select XI
08:52alongside such famous names as Danny Blanchflower from Tottenham
08:57and Paul Watson, in those days from Fulham.
09:01He played against a Frankfurt XI.
09:04So he was already making his name, and when Sunderland wanted to sign him,
09:09and Alan Brown, the manager who wanted to sign him,
09:11Brownie had been a centre-half himself, so obviously knew
09:15what he was looking for in a centre-half,
09:18and Alan Brown was determined to sign this young lad from Millwall.
09:22As you will know, and as a lot of people watching or listening
09:25to this podcast will know, Alan Brown, rather like the current regime
09:29where the basis at Sunderland is on youth,
09:33Alan Brown also wanted to build his team around a very, very young side.
09:38Indeed, at Sunderland this season, just recently when we played away
09:42to Southampton and Sunderland fielded their youngest ever starting XI,
09:46the record that they broke came from shortly after Charlie came.
09:50The record was previously set on Boxing Day 1959 at Lincoln City,
09:54so it illustrates that Sunderland had a very young team in those days.
09:58And Charlie was just 20, and Alan Brown brought him in
10:02and explained to Charlie that what he wanted to do was to build the new team,
10:06because Alan Brown had only just recently taken over at Sunderland,
10:09and he wanted to build a new team around this big, powerful centre-half of Charlie Hurley.
10:14So Charlie Hurley came in, having taken an awful lot of persuasion
10:19to leave London, to move about as far away as possible,
10:22to move from London and still play football at the English Football League.
10:26And in the first game, Sunderland lost 7-0.
10:30And in the second game, and by the way, in that first game,
10:34not only did they lose 7-0, they were playing against Blackpool,
10:37who had a certain Stanley Matthews on the wing who was tearing them apart.
10:40Sunderland were actually 3-0 down in the first 10 minutes,
10:43ended up losing 7-0.
10:45The week after, they lost 6-0, and your predecessor at the Echo,
10:52Bill Butterfield, better known as Argus, and there is an album.
10:56You were talking about Martin O'Neill's book being a nod to Van Morrison.
11:04Well, I always like to point out that Argus was also the title
11:07of Wishbone Ash's first album, and it means one who watches closely,
11:11although Wishbone Ash's first album came out a good decade and a half after this.
11:16But Billy Butterfield was the main reporter from the Sunderland Echo.
11:21Billy Butterfield was very concerned.
11:23You know, he just watched Sunderland get beat 7-0 and 6-0,
11:26so much for his new centre-half.
11:28And in typical fashion, Charlie just gave a, you know,
11:32always with Charlie, there'd be a chuckle in his voice
11:35and a glint in his eye, and he just said,
11:37look, see, there's an improvement already.
11:40And that improvement took some time to actually come,
11:45because in that season, Sunderland went on to be relegated
11:48for the very first time in their entire history.
11:51It remains one of their greatest memories.
11:55You know, a number of memories all rolled into one.
12:02But of course, in years to come, Charlie became captain.
12:05He wasn't captain at that point. Stan Anderson was.
12:08But Charlie became captain, and six years later,
12:11finally led to the first ever promotion,
12:13something that happened 60 years ago that season.
12:16Seems somewhat fitting in a way that, you know,
12:21when Charlie passed away at the age of 87,
12:23it's at the culmination of the commemorations
12:27of the 60th anniversary of that first ever promotion team.
12:30And also, I should mention that with Sunderland's next game
12:33after Charlie's passing, being at Watford,
12:36I think Watford's the closest ground to where Charlie's lived
12:38for the last umpteen years.
12:39He's lived in Hertfordshire for many, many years.
12:42And while I've never seen him at Watford,
12:43I've seen him at Luton, which is just down the road
12:45where Sunderland have played at Luton.
12:48So it just seems fitting that Sunderland's first game
12:51after the passing of Charlie Hurley should be at the ground
12:54nearest to where he's lived for a long time.
12:57Absolutely. And Rob, this was something I didn't actually know
13:00until quite recently, but that season where Sunderland
13:03were promoted back to the top flight,
13:05the first promotion in the club's history,
13:07Charlie Hurley actually finished runner-up
13:09to the great Bobby Moore in the Player of the Year award,
13:12which for a second-tier player at the time,
13:15was quite an achievement.
13:16Yeah, well, of course, let me just say that, firstly,
13:19another little-known fact is the whole idea of the Footballer
13:22of the Year award came from another songwriter,
13:24namely Charlie Buchan, who I just mentioned a few moments ago.
13:27That was Charlie Buchan's idea.
13:29Oddly enough, Stanley Matthews, who I've just mentioned,
13:31was the first winner.
13:34If you think about it now, take this season.
13:37When the Footballer of the Year is announced,
13:39given the title race that's going on with Liverpool
13:41and with Arsenal at Manchester City,
13:43if the runner-up of the Footballer of the Year award
13:47came from somebody in the Championship now,
13:50that puts it into context.
13:52So Charlie, who that year had captained Sunderland
13:55to promotion, had led Sunderland in a fantastic FA Cup run
14:00where they'd knocked out the reigning league champions, Everton,
14:03and then taken the Cup holders, Man Utd, Charlton Law
14:07and Best Included, to two replays in the FA Cup quarter-final.
14:11And as older listeners to this will remember,
14:15in both of those first two games with Man Utd,
14:17Man Utd equalised in the last minute to take the replays.
14:20Indeed, in the first one, Sunderland were 3-1 up
14:23with Old Trafford with four minutes to go
14:25when Monty got injured and Man Utd pulled two late goals back.
14:28So Charlie had had a huge profile.
14:31He was the dominant figure and leader in that promotion side.
14:36And yes, the only person that pipped him
14:39to the Footballer of the Year award was Bobby Moore,
14:42who'd captained West Ham to win the FA Cup.
14:44And of course, I always think the fact that he was playing
14:47for a London club probably helped sway it his way.
14:50And that just gives us a flavour, Phil, doesn't it,
14:53of how good Charlie Hurley actually was as a player.
14:55Obviously, we haven't seen anything of him
14:57other than quite old footage.
14:59But what's said about him, the number of appearances he made,
15:03what he finished runner-up to in the Player of the Year award,
15:06it's a brilliant sort of CV that he had and that he has.
15:12And I think the thing that I've sort of taken away
15:16from hearing about Charlie Hurley over the years
15:18was that he was absolutely made for Sunderland
15:20in terms of his playing style, being a big, bruising centre-back,
15:24but could also play and had a lot of talent as well.
15:26Well, that's right. Sorry, go on, Phil.
15:30No, go on. I was just going to say it's such a funny thing
15:33that we obviously never saw Charlie Hurley play,
15:36but the stories that get passed down are so vivid
15:40that I almost feel like I can sort of picture him playing.
15:43You know this idea of this big towering centre-half
15:47winning all the headers.
15:49I love this image of centre-halves not usually going up for corners
15:52in those days and this thrill of this centre-half
15:55sort of ambling up to make a late dash for the back post.
15:58I just think that's such a brilliant image.
16:01And, yeah, I just think that's such a lovely thing, really,
16:04that even though we never saw him, we almost have this folklore
16:07passed down of this huge centre-half ambling up for a corner.
16:12I just think it's such a great image.
16:15Yeah, it's one of my favourite sort of Charlie Hurley stories or images.
16:19Charlie, the other thing is, back in those days,
16:22and I only saw Charlie, I started going in February 1967.
16:26So Charlie had been at Sunderland for a decade.
16:29I saw the last two or three years of his career.
16:33And the thing with Charlie, when Charlie first was playing for Sunderland
16:37and first started going up for corners in the early 60s,
16:40in those days, football crowds didn't really chant.
16:43These days, you go up to the Stadium of Light
16:45and we all know the fans have got quite a vast repertoire of songs.
16:50But back in those days, the crowd made a right racket.
16:53We've all heard of the Roka Roar.
16:55You know, there'd be a vast amount of noise
16:57and incredible atmospheres at the ground,
17:00but you wouldn't really get a chant.
17:02And so when Charlie started to go forward for corners,
17:06the whole ground would just chant,
17:09Charlie, Charlie, Charlie!
17:12And at the same time, in the old wooden stands at Roka Park,
17:15people in the seats, the posh seats, of course, nearly everybody stood,
17:19but there were 9,500 seats at Roka Park.
17:23And the people in the seats would stamp their feet like mad
17:25on the wooden floorboards, which just added to the racket.
17:28Well, the visiting teams didn't know what on earth was going to hit them.
17:31And Charlie wouldn't just go up.
17:33The moment a corner was given,
17:35Charlie wasn't going to sprint into the box.
17:37In Jimmy Montgomery's words,
17:39he would just saunter to the penalty area
17:42and he would time his arrival in the penalty area
17:44for just as the corner kick was taken.
17:47And he would basically then have, you know,
17:51not so much the surprise because people had seen him coming,
17:54but a little bit of momentum having made his way up from the halfway line.
17:57And because of his ability in the air,
17:59if it was a good delivery,
18:01usually from either Brian Usher or George Mulhall,
18:04if it was a good delivery,
18:06Charlie would be nailed on to be the most likely man to get first contact.
18:10And if he didn't score,
18:12it was, you know, little nippy centre forward Nicky Sharkey,
18:15who told me himself, God rest his soul,
18:18Nicky Sharkey, another great player.
18:20Nicky Sharkey would say,
18:22I would always know I was going to get a lot of my goals from tap-ins.
18:26Because if the keeper parried down a Charlie header,
18:29he would be a jolly on the spot and say thank you very much
18:31and just tap it into an empty net.
18:33So Sutherland got an awful lot of goals
18:35from Charlie coming forward from those corners.
18:37And yes, the people who were old enough to have been there,
18:41that was not just a highlight of going to the match in those days.
18:45All these years later,
18:46people have supported Sutherland for decades upon decades.
18:49It remains one of their greatest memories.
18:53A number of memories all rolled into one.
18:55Memories over several seasons,
18:57as opposed to a particular goal.
18:59Although if you're talking about a particular goal,
19:01I would always think of one scored away from home,
19:05which was in an FA Cup tie at Norwich,
19:07where Charlie had an absolutely brilliant game
19:09in keeping Norwich out, who were very, very dominant.
19:13And then went up the other end and scored the only goal of the game from a corner.
19:17And significantly, or memorably,
19:19that ball just stayed in the...
19:21It didn't hit the back of the net,
19:23it hit the staunchet in the back of the net,
19:25and it had been headed with just force.
19:29You mentioned that...
19:31We were talking about that, Rob,
19:33obviously as Sutherland fans,
19:35we always say that you've got to give everything for the shirt,
19:39for the badge,
19:40but Sutherland fans have always loved a bit of a showman as well,
19:44a little bit of theatre.
19:46And I wonder, with Charlie going up for the corners,
19:48I'm thinking of players like Len Shackleton,
19:50and there's lots of recent memories as well,
19:52sort of those skilful plays,
19:54those plays with a bit of a sense of theatre,
19:56and with Charlie going up for those corners
19:58and timing his runs,
19:59was that part of his cult as well,
20:01that he had that sense of putting on a little bit of a show?
20:05Yeah, it's a very good point.
20:07I mean, Charlie did love a bit of theatre.
20:10Charlie was...
20:12Don't get this the wrong way around,
20:14Charlie was not afflicted by false modesty.
20:19Charlie knew and understood his place
20:25in the affections of Sutherland supporters.
20:28He also knew that that didn't happen by accident,
20:31that respect that Charlie had had been earned, you know?
20:35And he knew how much the fans loved him,
20:38and he did play up to that.
20:40He loved it if he was at a do
20:41and everybody was singing
20:42who's the greatest centre-half the world's ever seen.
20:44You know, he absolutely loved that.
20:46He laughed it up.
20:47Who wouldn't?
20:48But that wasn't an arrogance.
20:50That was just Charlie being Charlie.
20:53And I always say that for all of the love
20:57that Sutherland supporters showed Charlie Hurley,
21:00and have showed very, very clearly this week,
21:03and will do, I'm sure, in the coming games,
21:05I'm sure the fans at Watford
21:06will be showing their respects to Charlie,
21:08and certainly next week in the home game
21:10at Sheffield Wednesday,
21:11they'll be showing their respects to Charlie,
21:13and rightly so.
21:14But for all of the love
21:15Sutherland fans showed Charlie Hurley,
21:17Charlie Hurley showed his love
21:19of Sutherland fans every bit as much.
21:22Because we all know,
21:24sometimes you get players from the North East,
21:26players from Sutherland,
21:27take Dan Neil, for example,
21:29who was Sutherland through and through.
21:30We know that.
21:31Sometimes when you sign a player
21:33from elsewhere in the country,
21:34it's just a step and stone
21:36along the route on their career.
21:38But we all know of players
21:39who from outside the area
21:41have really bought into Sutherland.
21:43The most famous quote is
21:44Quinny Sutherland got under my skin.
21:46We think of other people like Kevin Ball,
21:49or Gary Bennett,
21:50or Len Ashurst,
21:51who came to Sutherland from outside the area,
21:54no previous connections with Sutherland,
21:56but then stayed in Sutherland,
21:57or after their careers
21:58came back to live in Sutherland.
22:00You know?
22:01And Charlie was very much
22:03one of those people who
22:04really understood Sutherland people.
22:08You know, like Niall Quinn,
22:10like Andy Reid,
22:11who I mentioned I spoke to yesterday,
22:12was an Irishman who felt
22:14a great affinity with the people of Wearside
22:16because he felt the people
22:17were very like the people in Ireland
22:19in that they were grounded,
22:21very down-to-earth people.
22:22Charlie absolutely got that.
22:24And he idolised,
22:26it's not too strong a word, I think,
22:27Charlie idolised Sutherland fans
22:30in the same way that Sutherland fans
22:31idolised him.
22:32So yes, he did like to play up to the theatre,
22:34but he did it with a big smile on his face.
22:37There's a long history of that
22:38at Sutherland as well, isn't there, Rob,
22:41with that?
22:42I'm just thinking,
22:43sort of your description of Charlie Hurley there
22:45reminds me of what I've read a little bit
22:46about Rach Carter,
22:47who famously liked to play up
22:48to the gallery as well.
22:50Well, yeah, Rach.
22:51Now, Rach did have an arrogance.
22:53Rach himself would say he had an arrogance.
22:56The players were a lot closer
22:57to their fans than they are now.
22:59You know, the supporters
23:00got a lot closer to their fans.
23:01Back in Charlie's day,
23:03the routine would be
23:05the pre-match meal would be down
23:06at the Roper Hotel.
23:08And then the players, as a squad,
23:10and then just walk up from the Roper Hotel
23:12up to Roper Park.
23:14It's crazy.
23:15A lot of people, most people,
23:16if they're really, really good supporters
23:19of a certain age,
23:20can just reel off the 73 team,
23:23you know, without question.
23:25The only other team I think
23:26a lot of Sutherland supporters can reel off
23:28is the 64 team.
23:34Sutherland!
23:35Sutherland!
23:36Sutherland!
23:37Sutherland!
23:38Sutherland!
23:39Sutherland!
23:40Sutherland!
23:41Sutherland!
23:42Sutherland!
23:43Sutherland!
23:44Sutherland!
23:45Sutherland!
23:46Sutherland!
23:47Sutherland!
23:48Sutherland!
23:49Sutherland!
23:50Sutherland!
23:51Sutherland!
23:52Sutherland!
23:53Sutherland!
23:54Sutherland!
23:55Sutherland!
23:56Sutherland!
23:57Sutherland!
23:58Sutherland!
23:59Sutherland!
24:00Sutherland!
24:01Sutherland!
24:02Sutherland!