Sunderland's latest financial accounts are explained by Sunderland Echo football writers James Copley and Phil Smith after a £9m operating loss.
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00:00 Today we're going to be bringing you something a little bit different.
00:02 We're going to be having a look at Sunderland's most recent set of accounts.
00:06 But I do think that's going to be worth, judging by the initial estimates,
00:10 I think that's probably going to be worth a couple of million quid.
00:12 [MUSIC]
00:22 A lot is said about financial fair play, Phil.
00:33 What is Sunderland's situation of, it's sort of the go-to answer, isn't it,
00:38 on social media of why clubs in the championship shouldn't spend more.
00:42 Is the financial restrictions, and obviously you don't want to fall afoul of that.
00:46 We've seen points deductions not only in the championship, but the Premier League as well.
00:51 So it's an issue across football. How does Sunderland fit into that?
00:54 Yeah, the reality is that compared to most of their rivals,
00:59 Sunderland's financial fair play position is incredibly strong.
01:02 So the current rules in place limit championship clubs to earning £13 million,
01:09 losing £13 million a season over three years.
01:12 So basically, your last three years of financial results, you can't lose any more than £39 million,
01:17 or you're in breach of the regulations.
01:21 Now, obviously, we don't have these years' accounts because they're not publicly available.
01:26 So we don't know exactly what the position is now,
01:28 because it'll be based on what Sunderland made or lost this season.
01:31 But if you look at the last three years that we do have on record,
01:34 we can see that they're very comfortable.
01:35 They lost £9 million last year, which is well under that £13 million.
01:39 They lost £5 million the year before, which is well under the limit.
01:43 And I think it was a loss of around £11 million the year before that,
01:46 which was also COVID-impacted.
01:48 And there were certain exceptions in place for that.
01:50 So Sunderland are way, way under the level, the upper limit.
01:55 And that's even before you bring in that COVID season.
01:58 So there's absolutely no two ways about it.
02:02 Sunderland could invest a lot more in the playing squad if they wanted to.
02:07 Financial fair play currently is not a concern to Sunderland.
02:10 And the wriggle room in wages and fees is absolutely there.
02:13 I know what Sunderland's argument would have to be,
02:16 was that it would only make two or three bad sort of 5 million-
02:21 Long-term.
02:22 -sign-offs if you play on big wages.
02:23 And all of a sudden, those losses increase very quickly, and then you are in trouble.
02:27 But the facts are very clear that they're in a comfortable financial fair play position.
02:33 We don't know how long those actual current regulations are going to be in place,
02:37 because people will be aware from following the Premier League,
02:39 that they're planning to vote in a new set of regulations,
02:44 which will be based on turnover.
02:46 And basically, it'll be back to the old system that Sunderland had in League One,
02:49 where you're capped.
02:50 What you can spend on wages can only be a certain percentage of your turnover.
02:55 Now, we expect once the Premier League vote to bring in their new rules,
03:00 the Championship will also have a vote to bring in new regulations.
03:03 So I expect maybe not for next season, but the season after,
03:07 I think we'll be operating with a different financial regulation anyway,
03:11 whereby Sunderland's turnover becomes even more important,
03:13 because what they can spend is based on that.
03:15 That again, underlines why all that commercial stuff is so important,
03:20 because that's going to be building the ceiling from which you can then invest in new wages.
03:24 But in terms of where Sunderland are right now, going into the summer window,
03:27 if Kieran Wan-Satori decided they wanted to go that way,
03:31 the room is absolutely there to invest in the squad, that much is very, very clear.
03:35 Which financial system do you reckon benefits Sunderland the most,
03:38 the way it is now,
03:39 or if we went back to a sort of salary cap rule that we had in League One?
03:43 Because I remember in League One, that was the argument, wasn't it?
03:46 That under the current rules in League One,
03:49 Sunderland should have been doing a lot better,
03:50 because the turnover was so much greater than any League One club, really.
03:54 But in the Championship, a little bit more of a level playing field,
03:57 there's rivals in there obviously, needs to seize them and stuff like that.
03:59 There are big beasts in the Championship as well as Sunderland.
04:02 In theory, it kind of depends on the intention of the ownership.
04:06 In theory, the current rules should work relatively well for them,
04:10 because they've benefited from the cost cutting of the previous regime,
04:14 which has meant that their base in terms of the losses is very, very low.
04:18 So whereas a lot of teams haven't been quite careful,
04:20 so as not to infringe those limits,
04:23 Sunderland actually don't really have those concerns.
04:25 So you could make a case that if you wanted to have a gamble and roll the dice,
04:29 and we've talked about all the reasons why that's incredibly risky,
04:32 but if you wanted to, you could argue that these regulations
04:34 currently suit Sunderland very well,
04:36 because they don't have the same level of concerns that the clubs do.
04:38 In principle, I think in time,
04:41 they would probably favour the kind of model we're talking about,
04:45 because we say every week we talk about
04:47 Sunderland having the biggest attendances in the League.
04:50 If they're able to maximise that revenue
04:52 through those commercial things we talk about,
04:54 if they're able to start steadily bringing in significant income
04:57 from the odd sale of a player in every other window or what have you,
05:00 then theoretically, they should be in a really good position
05:04 to start investing quite heavily in the wage bill
05:07 and start to cut the gap to those teams of parachute payments.
05:10 But there's a lot of unknowns moving forward.
05:12 I mean, I think there's a couple of things that are worth mentioning.
05:15 One is, you know, we still don't know
05:18 if there's going to be a new financial settlement
05:20 between the Premier League and the EFL.
05:22 People are being following this,
05:23 that this is being tied up with the independent regulator,
05:27 which is potentially going to come in at some point.
05:28 And whether that's going to affect the money
05:31 that gets distributed through the pyramid,
05:33 and it may also mean there's a renegotiation of parachute payments,
05:36 we don't know that.
05:36 That would be a huge sort of game changer, really.
05:39 And that is something that would definitely benefit Sunderland.
05:42 If the parachute payments were overhauled
05:44 and money started to be distributed on a more sort of level basis,
05:48 then that's a real game changer for Sunderland.
05:50 As of yet, there's no concrete indications of that happening
05:53 because the Premier League clubs are very, very resistant to it.
05:56 One thing we do know is definitely changing
05:58 is that from next season,
05:59 and people will have started to read about this,
06:01 is there's going to be a new TV deal.
06:03 The short-term impact of this is lots more games on TV,
06:07 lots more rescheduling,
06:09 but hopefully with more advanced notice.
06:11 But I do think that's going to be worth,
06:13 judging by the initial estimates,
06:15 I think that's probably going to be worth a couple of million quid
06:18 every season to championship clubs.
06:21 What's going to be interesting is,
06:22 do the clubs use that to help cut the losses they're making,
06:26 or is it just going to inflate wages more?
06:28 Is a bit more money and a bit more cash in championship clubs,
06:31 is that just going to go straight into players' wages
06:33 and players' fees and agent fees?
06:35 Or is it going to be a little bit of a tool
06:38 for most of the clubs to go,
06:39 "Actually, we can sort of move a little bit closer to sustainability
06:42 because it is going to be like I say,
06:44 it will be worth at least,
06:45 I think about one and a half million to each championship club next year."
06:48 So that's going to be a really interesting sort of thing going forward as well.
06:51 In the long run, I think it's more to answer your question.
06:55 I think a change in distribution
06:58 and the change in regulations might serve something quite well.
07:01 But at the moment,
07:03 it's probably preventing a lot of ambitious owners in this division
07:09 spending at the level they would like to.
07:10 So I think you could make an argument at the moment
07:12 that the current rules probably suit some of them
07:14 and their current guise,
07:15 because I suspect there are some clubs
07:16 who are being hamstrung a little bit
07:18 by the money that they've spent in the past.
07:20 It's a crazy old topic, this, isn't it, Phil?
07:23 Just football finance in general.
07:25 I think we've seen how important it's sort of grown to be.
07:28 Yeah, absolutely.
07:29 And obviously, even to be honest,
07:31 even less so in the championship than in the Premier League this season,
07:34 really, where they looked like for a while,
07:37 like relegation, which essentially decided off the field, didn't it?
07:39 Three points, it's why we now, as it happens,
07:42 that isn't the case.
07:43 I think what we're seeing really is the gap between
07:46 the Premier League and the championship is widening financially.
07:51 That's a fact.
07:52 It's becoming harder than ever, really, to bridge that gap.
07:55 And it's also interesting in the case of Sunderland, really,
07:58 in that we were very lucky, James, of our generation,
08:02 that when Sunderland were in the championship,
08:04 they were always pretty much going to be right up there,
08:07 because that was the end of the era, really,
08:10 where having a huge fan base, steadily large crowds,
08:13 pretty much guaranteed that you were going to be able to spend
08:16 a level to get out of the championship
08:19 and hopefully compete at the Premier League level.
08:21 I didn't know what was happening in Sunderland's case, as we know,
08:23 because they had a couple of absolutely wretched,
08:25 record-breakingly bad seasons.
08:28 But we're now moving into an era where really,
08:31 attendances, financially, they're helpful.
08:36 They're not as important.
08:38 It just pales in comparison to the TV revenues of the Premier League.
08:42 And that's why you have an EFL that is packed
08:46 with some of the biggest, most famous,
08:49 sort of most historic clubs in England,
08:51 because those old sort of financial streams are less important.
08:56 And that's why you have what we would describe as fairly small clubs
09:00 able to thrive and compete in the Premier League,
09:03 because if you can get up there and stay there,
09:05 the revenue streams mean that your fan base is irrelevant to a large extent.
09:10 So it's really important to not just think within the Sunderland bubble
09:14 and to put Sunderland, which I think we're all guilty of,
09:18 you know, seeing things through a very Sunderland lens,
09:21 putting them in the context of the wider game.
09:24 And there's loads of clubs that are experiencing what Sunderland are now,
09:28 which is recognizing that just having a big crowd
09:32 doesn't mean financially you're on a footing
09:34 with a lot of your championship rivals,
09:36 especially if they have parachute payments.
09:38 And that's still a challenge going forward.
09:39 And that obviously doesn't mean that we shouldn't expect them to be ambitious
09:43 and that we shouldn't expect them to be pushing,
09:46 because we absolutely should.
09:48 But it is definitely a talking point that the ones,
09:52 the financial parameters of the game have changed so dramatically,
09:58 even in the last 10 years, nevermind the sort of last 20.
10:01 - Let's talk a little bit about debt.
10:03 I think this is a really important issue,
10:05 especially to Sunderland fans.
10:06 Goes back to what I mentioned earlier about Ellis Short,
10:08 who saddled the club with quite a bit of debt to himself.
10:12 He ended up writing that off, but it came at a cost.
10:14 Sunderland's debt has risen.
10:17 It's debt to Kiri Luig-Dreyfus and Juan Satori.
10:20 What have they said about the debt?
10:22 Should fans be concerned about it?
10:23 - It's a really difficult one to answer.
10:26 We're moving well beyond my areas of expertise.
10:29 I think what we can say is there's a couple of factors here.
10:32 One is that this debt is very, very different
10:34 to the bulk of the debt that grew under Ellis Short.
10:38 So when Sunderland's debt was beginning to get to a huge level
10:41 while Ellis Short was in charge,
10:42 part of that debt was to Ellis.
10:46 Part of that debt was to an external body.
10:49 I can't remember exactly what the organization was called.
10:52 But that's the debt that accrues interest.
10:55 So when you have that, it costs you a lot more money
10:58 because you have to pay it back with interest.
11:00 The money to the owners is less concerning
11:03 because you know that they're basically benevolent.
11:06 They're gifting that money to a large extent
11:08 and also you're not paying interest on it.
11:09 Now, as it happens, Ellis decided to pay all of the debt off
11:13 when he left the club.
11:14 So it wasn't just the debt that was owed to him.
11:16 He also paid off the external debt.
11:18 Now, that realistically was a decision
11:22 that gave Sunderland a fighting chance
11:23 of battling back from where they were from.
11:25 We know it wasn't quite as clear as that now
11:27 because of the parachute payment issues,
11:29 which we have not got time to go back into.
11:31 But the reason I've raised that example
11:34 is because it is important to know
11:35 that this is debt to the ownership.
11:37 So it's not debt that Sunderland are paying interest on.
11:40 It's not debt that is going to drain
11:42 the club's financial resource over the next few years.
11:45 And that's a really important point.
11:46 And time just continues to show us
11:49 what an absolutely spectacularly bad,
11:52 historically bad season that was.
11:55 Beyond all belief.
11:57 - Where I guess there is always a level of concern
12:04 is what's been said, not just in this set of accounts,
12:07 but previous set of accounts,
12:08 is that they have consistently said
12:11 that they will convert this debt to equity.
12:13 Basically, it's as good as sort of writing it off,
12:17 if that makes sense.
12:18 They've said that a couple of times
12:22 and they haven't yet done it.
12:23 Only they can answer why that hasn't happened.
12:27 And I don't think it's an uncommon practice.
12:30 I don't think it is a major concern
12:32 because I say, because there's no interest on it,
12:34 you know, it means that the club
12:35 isn't being drained by that sort of decision
12:38 not to convert yet.
12:39 But if you're someone who, you know,
12:42 has some reservations over the ownership
12:44 because of what initially happened
12:45 with the shared disclosure
12:46 and certain things like that, you know,
12:48 then you might look at it
12:50 and say that you're quite concerned
12:52 that something again, that's been said,
12:53 it's going to happen, hasn't yet happened.
12:55 - Yeah, absolutely.
12:55 - It's a concern.
12:56 So it kind of depends where you fall on that one,
12:59 to be honest.
13:00 But the one thing, you know, that we should say,
13:03 because it's entirely factual,
13:05 you know, is that it is different to,
13:07 you know, a loan to an external body
13:09 where you're paying interest
13:10 and you could potentially
13:11 not just harm your future revenue,
13:13 but it sort of could get you into trouble
13:15 in certain circumstances where,
13:16 you know, because often it might be
13:19 debt that's guaranteed against the stadium
13:21 or the academy alliance
13:22 and things like that in the past.
13:23 That's absolutely not the case.
13:25 In this scenario as it stands.
13:27 So I could certainly see why some fans
13:29 would have reservations over it.
13:31 But it's important to know that it is different
13:34 to some of the debt that we've talked about
13:36 at Sunderland in the past
13:36 has been, you know, has been very constant.
13:38 - To get out the championship, Phil,
13:41 Sunderland are probably going to,
13:42 well, they are going to have to compete
13:43 against clubs coming down
13:45 from the Premier League with parachute payments.
13:47 Obviously, we've talked a little bit about that
13:49 in this podcast.
13:50 How does Sunderland compete with those clubs?
13:54 Obviously it's the club's state of aim
13:55 to get back to the Premier League.
13:57 Judged on these accounts,
13:59 what will Sunderland do in the future
14:01 and how can you bridge that gap?
14:02 Obviously, it's not a hard and fast rule
14:03 that clubs that come down
14:04 with parachute payments go straight back up.
14:07 Sometimes they go straight back down
14:08 as we've seen as Sunderland fans.
14:11 So it's not a hard and fast rule,
14:13 but it does help to have, you know,
14:14 35 million in your back pocket.
14:16 - Yeah.
14:16 Time just continuously shows
14:19 what an absolutely spectacularly bad
14:23 and historically bad season that was.
14:26 Beyond all belief and precedent
14:29 to, yeah, staggeringly bad that season.
14:33 - It's got to be the worst season
14:36 of any championship club ever.
14:38 I mean, I'm sure there's some other...
14:39 - It has to be right up there.
14:40 I'm sure there's other clubs that would be up there.
14:42 But it is one of the great,
14:44 great dismal seasons, really,
14:46 for so many reasons.
14:48 - Maybe things when they went down to League One,
14:50 but I mean, yeah.
14:51 - Possibly, yeah.
14:52 I think we've talked really about
14:54 how Sunderland view it,
14:56 in terms of how they would like to do it.
14:58 One thing is those kind of...
15:00 Well, I suppose the developing young talent,
15:02 I guess, has two reasons or two goals.
15:07 One is that you eventually develop a player
15:10 who is as good as the player
15:11 who is playing in a parachute payment team
15:14 who's cost a lot of money.
15:15 So I suppose you could argue that Dan Neil
15:18 is maybe a season away from being a centre midfielder,
15:21 every bit as good as a centre midfielder
15:23 in the, for argument's sake,
15:25 Burnley side that's just dropped out of the Premier League.
15:27 The other aspect then, of course,
15:30 is if you then decide to score at the Premier League,
15:32 you get a lot of money for it,
15:33 which you can then reinvest in the team.
15:34 So that's one side of it.
15:36 The second side of it is, as we've talked about,
15:38 is driving those commercial revenues.
15:40 So maybe if a team comes out of the Premier League
15:43 or a team is pushing towards the top of the championship
15:46 and they have a parachute payment advantage,
15:48 well, maybe they won't have the level of fan base
15:50 that you do, and maybe you can begin to turn that
15:53 into your advantage by having
15:54 a really good commercial operation.
15:56 So that's clearly somewhere where sometimes
15:58 there's potential growth,
15:59 but we have to say they're a long way off, I think,
16:01 being able to realistically turn that into a point
16:03 where they can compete financially
16:05 with parachute payment clubs.
16:06 And obviously the main thing they have to do
16:08 is they have to make much better decisions
16:10 than they have this season.
16:11 If you don't have that level of revenue,
16:13 then you have to be the team
16:16 making consistent, good decisions.
16:18 And they did do that for a while,
16:19 and they haven't done this yet.
16:21 And that's kind of been their biggest problem, really.
16:23 The examples of Brentford and Brighton
16:26 are a little bit not quite right
16:30 in terms of both of those clubs
16:31 had huge owner investment.
16:33 Tony Blame at Brighton and Matthew Bentham at Brentford
16:38 invested a lot of money into those clubs,
16:40 and we should not...
16:41 The Moneyball thing is kind of accurate to an extent,
16:45 but we should not assume that that was all sustainable.
16:47 There was a huge amount of owner injection,
16:49 and that probably underlines
16:51 that it has to be a balance.
16:52 But it's also a reality that they were,
16:54 the clubs, certainly in Brentford cases,
16:56 who are making consistently better decisions
16:58 than everybody else.
16:59 And that's what we need more than anything else
17:02 from someone this summer.
17:04 There needs to be a level of owner investment.
17:06 We probably need to see them acknowledge that,
17:09 "Ross Stewart, there aren't many of them around,
17:12 and maybe you have to push the boat a little bit further
17:14 to get that more established option."
17:16 But fundamentally, they need to appoint a good head coach.
17:19 They need to make a better decision
17:20 than other teams appoint head coaches.
17:21 They need to make better recruitment decisions
17:23 than other teams.
17:24 They need to assign the best,
17:25 they need to make the best loan decisions,
17:27 which they made good ones the season before this one,
17:31 but not as good ones this time.
17:32 So I think that's as big a lesson as anything, really.
17:36 - Absolutely.
17:38 Football finances are an absolute minefield,
17:40 and I'm going to ask you a nice binary question
17:42 from Sunderland's latest set of accounts.
17:45 Are they good or are they bad?
17:46 I will allow you to caveat that
17:48 because I know you're dying inside.
17:49 - Well, no, I think we should see them as good
17:57 to a large extent.
17:59 And this was a club in a very, very, very severe state
18:05 of financial distress for quite a long time.
18:07 Now, the fact that they've lost nine million pounds
18:10 means they are still in the element of financial distress
18:12 because pretty much any other business in the world
18:14 would be saying, obviously, that's an atrocious set result.
18:16 But the reality is, is they are not one of the worst
18:21 off financial teams in the championship financially,
18:24 they're not.
18:24 And there is a way in which they have a platform,
18:29 really, from which to grow,
18:30 and that their losses are modest by championship standards.
18:34 They have talent in the squad,
18:37 which could potentially bring in revenue in the future.
18:39 They still have a huge, fairly,
18:42 a huge fan base that is very well engaged
18:45 and would like to be more engaged.
18:47 I think most would like to be able to spend more money
18:49 on the club.
18:50 And so I think there is definitely
18:53 sort of grounds for optimism within these results.
18:56 But obviously, it's about maximizing it, isn't it?
18:59 It's about how does the club build on this platform?
19:03 - And intent, I guess.
19:05 - Yeah, exactly.
19:06 And we shouldn't allow what has been a wretched second half
19:09 of the season to make us think that everything
19:11 at the club is wrong, because it's not.
19:13 And these accounts show us some uncertainty things.
19:15 And in this campaign that we're talking about,
19:17 they overachieved because they made good decisions.
19:20 They overachieved because they had good academy players
19:23 who were thriving.
19:24 So I definitely think, relatively speaking,
19:27 I do think it's a good set of accounts,
19:30 but that's kind of worthless
19:32 if you don't capitalize on that opportunity
19:34 by really taking things to the next level
19:37 and now really making some good football decisions,
19:40 especially the means you can sort of benefit
19:42 from some of the work that's gone on.
19:44 But listen, the simplest way to put it is
19:46 we could have sat here many, many other years
19:49 and talked about a considerably worse set of accounts
19:51 than this one.
19:52 Maybe that's the sort of the best way to put it
19:55 is that it's a different someone
19:57 to what we were talking about,
19:58 maybe any time between five and 15 years ago,
20:02 whether people see that as a huge positive,
20:06 I don't quite know.
20:06 But I think that's probably the fairest answer
20:09 I can give you on that one.
20:10 And just on that point as well, Phil,
20:12 do you feel that there's,
20:13 I know every club has to publish their accounts yearly
20:17 and there's little place to hide really,
20:19 but you get the impression that maybe
20:21 there's a little bit more transparency
20:23 around a lot of the big issues now.
20:25 Perhaps Kirilui Dreyfus has maybe learned his lesson
20:28 from the shareholder initial claim
20:31 that he was majority when he was in fact a minority,
20:34 I know he was a majority controlling owner,
20:37 but there's a lot of stuff that's happened,
20:39 obviously with Donald and Metheny back in the day,
20:41 but I do get the feeling now
20:43 that there's sort of no skeletons in the closet anymore,
20:46 which is quite nice.
20:47 - Yeah, I think there's,
20:50 to an extent,
20:53 I definitely think we should and can push
20:59 for a lot more accountability.
21:00 Neither of the club's ownership really are available to-
21:05 - Yeah, you should never stop asking questions.
21:07 - To the media and they've been
21:09 not hugely accessible to fans either, I would suggest.
21:13 I know Kiril has attended meetings
21:15 with the support collective, which is good.
21:17 I've been at a Q&A that he's done with supporters,
21:19 which was very good,
21:20 but I would argue they've been quite rare
21:22 and not frequent enough.
21:24 So I don't feel that Sunderland are as transparent
21:29 and as accountable as they should be
21:30 and as they could be,
21:31 but I agree with you that,
21:35 certainly the last couple of sets of accounts they've put out
21:38 have been a lot more transparent than previous ones.
21:41 Certainly the notes that accompany them,
21:44 which again, people want to go and read them.
21:46 They give you a bit more insight into the plans
21:49 and what the club's planning
21:51 and where they see things than what we used to have.
21:53 So I agree with your point.
21:55 I agree with your point.
21:56 There is definitely more transparency
21:58 than we've had in the past,
21:59 but I would like to see more
22:03 and also in between accounts.
22:04 I think we could certainly expect and demand a lot more.
22:09 Thank you very much for that.
22:10 A very, very all encompassing topic.
22:13 Thank you very much for watching.
22:15 Phil, you've written about this over at the Soledeco.
22:17 People can go and read that.
22:18 What else are you writing about at the moment?
22:20 I'll have to put you on the spot there.
22:21 There's the answer nothing.
22:22 No, it's a good question.
22:25 I'm currently writing about all the transfer decisions
22:28 that we made in the last couple of windows
22:30 and looking at which ones worked,
22:33 which ones didn't,
22:34 writing them mainly to actually see
22:36 what needs to change going into next season
22:38 and what went wrong after a really good season,
22:40 the one before.
22:41 We expect there'll be some,
22:43 potentially some retained list news.
22:45 There may be some head coach developments,
22:47 although we're still sort of waiting
22:48 for concrete stuff on that.
22:49 So there is going to be loads of stuff coming.
22:52 But the reality is,
22:54 is that we are a little bit beholden to Sunderland.
22:57 So let's see what Sunderland have in store
23:00 and then we will sort of be reacting to that.
23:03 But listen, we're going to have loads of videos,
23:05 aren't we, and stuff.
23:06 We're going to do one retained list.
23:08 We'll chat about the squad and how it's looking.
23:10 When the new head coach is in,
23:11 we'll do some stuff around that.
23:13 So stay tuned because we are going to be doing
23:15 loads of stuff as the summer develops.
23:17 We're certainly not going anywhere, are we?
23:19 Dare I say, this is a little bit of a lull,
23:21 a little bit of a calm before
23:23 the inevitable incoming storm,
23:25 which is about to hit us at some point,
23:28 which we look forward to.
23:29 Thank you for watching.
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