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00:00The organization of the African, Caribbean, and Pacific countries counts roughly 79 nations.
00:13Considering their importance in global politics, they are a group of countries dedicated to
00:19the development of their member states, especially in the eradication of poverty and the enhancement
00:24of the Sustainable Development Goals of the United Nations.
00:30This week, one of their member countries was hosting a MINES conference to show the importance
00:36that the minerals play in the development of those countries.
00:40My guest today on Globe Watch is the Secretary General of the Organization of the African,
00:45Caribbean, and Pacific countries, Angolan-born George Rebello Pinto Chikoti.
00:54Welcome to Globe Watch.
00:56Thank you.
00:57You are here in Younde, Cameroon, to attend the Mining Exhibition and the International
01:04Conference on Mining.
01:06How did you see the entire ceremony play out?
01:09Well, first of all, thank you very much for your question, and I would like first of all
01:16to thank the authorities of Cameroon, particularly His Excellency the President, for giving us
01:21this warm opportunity to come back to Africa, our continent, and again to congratulate the
01:27authorities the way this Mining Ministers Conference took place.
01:35Also the occasion to congratulate His Excellency the Ambassador of Cameroon in Brussels, Ambassador
01:41Evina, who worked very hard on the preparation for this conference.
01:46We are indeed very pleased to be here and share the experience of Cameroon.
01:51We are very much impressed first by the participation of the mining sectors during those few days
01:59of the CIMIC, where they presented during their fourth edition all the mining activities
02:05that have been taking place in Cameroon.
02:08But what's important for us is that critical raw materials have become indeed a major issue
02:15on the international arena, and naturally most of our countries are indeed producers
02:24of these raw materials.
02:26So far on the OECPS level, we have not yet had indeed a way of how we should look into
02:33this.
02:34Indeed, a few countries do produce these critical raw materials, but it was since the meeting
02:41we had in Zambia on raw materials in November that we did realise the importance, and indeed
02:47one of the recommendations the High Officials made was that the OECPS Member States should
02:55elaborate a joint strategy on how they will pursue their exploration of critical raw materials.
03:04And you just talked of elaborating a strategy for the 79 Member Countries, which you are
03:13heading the General Secretariat, and you in Yaoundé ended up with what was called the
03:18Yaoundé Declaration.
03:20What are the salient points in that document which can constitute a kind of modus operandi
03:29for this?
03:30Yes.
03:31Again, it's important to say that the Ministers indeed did discuss in depth, they did realise
03:37that they do indeed produce those critical raw materials at various levels.
03:43When you look at the level of Cameroon, Cameroon is particularly more advanced than others.
03:49You have others who have already been in the sector for quite many years, DRC, Zambia,
03:53who also presented their experiences, but they all realised that it is indeed important
04:00that in order to be able to do the mining of critical raw materials, they need energy,
04:06they need infrastructure.
04:07But again, once you produce those raw materials, they also realised that part of that should
04:14be transformed locally to feed the local market, and some of that then can be exported.
04:20So indeed, they are looking at all areas where they do need to satisfy the local needs of
04:27the country.
04:28For example, the local communities, they've got to benefit from that.
04:33And indeed, in those joint points that the Ministers discussed on, which are now in the
04:40Cameroon Declaration, which are now going to the Council of Ministers at the end of
04:44the month of June for approval, will then become a strategy for all OACPS Member States.
04:51But as they work, as they go on, certainly they will encounter other difficulties.
04:57Yesterday, we had the bankers also who came to look into how they can indeed work either
05:04with projects, either with countries, how they can indeed finance some of those projects.
05:10You know, mining is not a cheap project, and naturally it needs money.
05:15So this then means that Member States have also realised that they cannot only sometimes
05:21go into projects where they can go jointly, but they can also see how they can leverage
05:29together to make sure that the outcome of what comes from the mining serves indeed their communities.
05:38So some of the top ten producing mine countries in the world are basically countries from
05:45the organisation of the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries, the Democratic Republic
05:51of Congo, South Africa, Angola, the list can go on.
05:59Well, you can talk of Australia, Canada, the United States, Russia, at the other end of the world.
06:06As a structure, as an organisation, what are you doing concretely to accompany your Member
06:12States in benefiting from the proceeds of their natural resources?
06:19That's why I think we met, because we are 79 Member States, and therefore here there
06:25is also a possibility for Member States to make a cartel, to elaborate policies together.
06:31You know, we are Member States who have, over many years, depended on what the outside world
06:38wanted from us, or what they wanted to import from us, and generally our development was
06:44not based on our own needs. And therefore, if we work together, first we can know how
06:51we can support each other, in terms of infrastructure, in terms of energy. For example, you can produce
06:57energy here and support Gabon, you can support maybe the other regional countries in this
07:03region. You can produce energy in DRC, support Angola, support Zambia, support up to South
07:08Africa even. So, the countries are now looking at all these elements. But I should also say
07:15that they are also looking at the green mining policy of the African Union, so they are looking
07:20at all other policies that have already been elaborated. And the whole goal is to make
07:25sure that they do the things right, to satisfy their needs, to satisfy their populations,
07:32because it is indeed the development of our countries that is at the centre of the whole
07:37challenge. Which means that if we are together, we can take care of those who have not yet
07:43this big experience. I think yesterday we saw all kinds of experience. Countries that
07:49have geological resources, but they are not yet explored. Those who have just done a little
07:55bit of research. Sometimes called geological scandals. Exactly. Which means then that when
08:02you bring countries like this together, they can share experience, they can share technology.
08:08And that is one of the important points of the OECPS, is that we can bring all these
08:13countries together, discuss issues and know how we can place it together on outside. Mr
08:19Secretary General, between 2016 to 2018, the organisation of the Caribbean, African, Pacific
08:27countries had what they called the Mining Development Project. For example, in Zambia
08:34it was roughly 13 million pounds. How did that project conclude that it can serve as
08:43a bedrock to say that this is a success story, this is how we co-ordinated here, this is
08:48how it can be implemented in Cameroon or the DRC and many other of your member states?
08:52Well, what I should say, indeed, this is the first time that we are meeting in this joint
08:58global venture. The meeting that took place in 2016 looked at those countries, like Zambia,
09:06which is already an experienced country. With a lot of copper. With a lot of copper, cobalt
09:10and zinc. But this time we came to look at the 79 member states, looking at the situation
09:17of critical raw materials. And from that time to now, the market, the international
09:22market has also indeed changed. And you can also feel that even in our relationship with
09:29the European Union, they do want that these critical raw materials, not only that they
09:34play a key role in our development, but also we do take care of our own environment. And
09:41indeed, during this...
09:43Environmental sustainability.
09:44Exactly.
09:45Like you said, green mining.
09:46Green mining.
09:47To fit the challenges of climate change.
09:49And as you saw during these discussions, ministers dedicated a lot of time to make sure that
09:56the projects do indeed take into account the environment, the local societies or communities,
10:04to make sure that the benefits are just not for the one who is exporting or exploring
10:09the resources, but there is indeed something that feeds into the community.
10:16To my audience in Georgetown, maybe in Jamaica, or to my audience in the Bahamas or in Lusaka
10:24or in Polokwana in South Africa, where they do all those mining operations, there is an
10:31expression you have constantly used since we started our conversation, critical minerals.
10:37What actually does it mean?
10:39Well, critical raw materials basically became key. That means these are minerals that have
10:47become critically important on the world stage. Because the transformation of the world towards
10:56a world that is more green in terms of environment, that if we have to pollute less, then we will
11:04need things like lithium. We may need to produce cars that are electrical. And so we
11:11will need energy. We need batteries. And these batteries have got to be produced either from
11:16lithium, from cobalt, all those minerals that can easily make electricity circulate. And
11:23all of a sudden, our countries have become important. Because most of them have these
11:29products. They have copper, they have zinc, they have lithium. And curiously, we have
11:33become at the center. But we need to be organized. We're not just going to a relationship with
11:41others, with experienced business people who will come and tell you, well, this is the
11:48price for that. We will have to sit down and say, well, the best price could be that one.
11:53So when you look at the upcoming 30 or 40 years, most of these products will be rising
12:00so much. I'm told that products will be going up to 1,500% in terms of growth. This will
12:10mean that we will indeed need to negotiate prices, better prices for us, prices that
12:17can satisfy as well ourselves, which was not very much the case in the past.
12:20You just talked about prices, which has to do with market value, the importance of such
12:26critical minerals, gold, cobalt, manganese, and all those, lithium and all the rest. But
12:32currently, the global market value of minerals and critical minerals you were talking about
12:37is roughly 2,276 billion CF francs. Those are the latest statistics for 2024. One of
12:46your strategic partners is the European Union, quite advanced in the domain. How are you
12:52partnering with the European Union to sustain the markets that you were just talking about?
12:57Well, so far...
12:58To have a kind of a balanced environment, yeah, because largely they are the consumers.
13:02That's why a meeting like this one for us as OECP is important. Because really, up till
13:10now, companies have done things on their own. Member states have done things on their
13:16own. So if you look at most of the African countries that produce these critical raw
13:21materials, they have their own policies and things that they do. But I think that they're
13:27taking some income from that. Probably, if all of these countries join, first, those
13:34who have already been in the field for a long time can share their experience. And as you
13:39saw, we learned quite a lot from countries that have been in the area for a long time.
13:45But we also learned quite a lot from Cameroon. The way the mining sector is organized, how
13:52people go into the...
13:53The legal environment with the new laws which were passed in Parliament.
13:56Exactly. So I think we need to share all that. But we also need to make sure that because
14:02we are producing these products, then we should benefit quite a lot from them. I do know that
14:08today, well, price markets don't really depend on one's will. But if you look at today the
14:16prices of oil, for example, you know, the OPEC countries, when they meet, they say,
14:21well, this is the price that we want, and that's...
14:24They fix the threshold. That is what probably...
14:27And that's the price at which the world will consume. Eventually, we will need something
14:33like that. On one hand, we will make sure that we are taking care of the environment
14:38of our communities, but as well that the price that comes out of there satisfies...
14:44As the Chief Coordinator of the Secretariat of the OACP, what have you identified with
14:52experts' knowledge and material at your disposal as the main challenges facing mining within
14:59member states? Industrialization, financing, investment, what are the key challenges?
15:04All those. I think that, and it all depends on... It's from country to country, very different.
15:11But we were able to note that energy is important, infrastructure is important. Those are...
15:19Then you have capital. Because naturally, in some cases, we need to attract investors.
15:27In some cases, we need to reduce the amount of money the investor will have to invest
15:32in the sector. If you have roads, if you have energy, and therefore those things are important
15:39for him to produce, and he can go in a region that can be very far from the capitals, because
15:45generally talking about raw materials, we don't take them in towns. You have to go very
15:49far into the interland. And I did see that in Cameroon, you have indeed developed energetic
15:56infrastructure, which are quite important, and yet Cameroon's experience is quite recent
16:01as well, only the last 10 years. We are 79 member states. Some are still at a very low
16:06level of the ladder. So we need to make sure that... I think this experience, in my view...
16:14Well, there is a lot of talk about the Nabibam, Balam, Ion oil projects between Cameroon and
16:20the Republic of Congo. How do you size those kind of partnerships between member states?
16:24Is it good for enhancing productivity?
16:28Well, but that's important, because what happens basically is that you have the same deposit
16:35that extends from Cameroon into Congo. So that means the two countries are basically
16:39on the same deposit. Now, if the two countries come together, then it reduces capital. You
16:46are going to invest together, you are going to produce electricity together, and then
16:51you are going to share as well the benefits from the mining.
16:55When you look at critically what happened in Yaoundé, what is the key message you are
17:00living with?
17:01Well, I think the key message I am living with is that we are going out of Cameroon
17:06very pleased. First of all, we were very well received in a very typical and good African
17:15way. We were all treated, look, I've got all this space here where I am accommodated, all
17:20my staff. The technical conditions were very good. There was a lot of participation from
17:26the Cameroonian staff, the technical staff, the ministers, and above all, we have also
17:33been assisted with Ambassador Evina, who is a very active ambassador in Brussels. He has
17:38worked with us technically at all levels. But we are particularly pleased that all this
17:43was done under the patronage of His Excellency the President. So we are very, very, very
17:48well received. And I think as well that we have produced a very important document, the
17:55Declaration of Cameroon. It contains the guidelines which we are going to present to the Council
18:01of Ministers next month.
18:02A kind of instrumentum laboris.
18:05Exactly. But we are very, very thankful. You are all very open-minded people, people we
18:10can talk to very well, and I think that each one of us has had the occasion to learn from
18:16Cameroon. So we are very thankful to the government, to the Prime Minister who came
18:21to open our session, and I think that all the ministers who participated, all our staff
18:27that came from Brussels are living with very, very good souvenirs of Cameroon.
18:33Now let's talk the organization of African, Caribbean, and Pacific countries. 79 member
18:42states, one of the largest international gatherings. You are quite old now as an institution.
18:50When you do a flashback, what do you see the organization has actually achieved in cementing
18:58the bond between member states?
19:00Well, I think the organization has achieved quite a lot. Remember that we are 79 member
19:07states. We have just signed the Samoa Agreement, and we signed this Samoa Agreement in Samoa
19:13in the Pacific.
19:14That was last year.
19:16That's last year. And we had the Georgetown Agreement reviewed in Georgetown. So this,
19:22the originality of the OACPS, it's that it is the organization that brings countries
19:31that are underdeveloped, that face many challenges. Everything that you know about challenges
19:38in terms of development, you find it among the OACPS. You have the LLD, LCD, SEEDS, you
19:46get them all in here. So countries that face a lot of challenges, challenges, exactly.
19:51Countries that are almost submerged by water.
19:53By water, all those things, exactly, exactly.
19:57And what's important is that each one of these countries has a voice on this assembly.
20:05They talk, they share experiences, they travel to the regions of each one of each other,
20:12they listen to each other, and they do make their agreements with the European Union
20:18from as equals. And indeed, we have just signed the Samoa Agreement. Now we have about 79,
20:26I think 60, or almost 70 have already signed. Then we're going into ratification.
20:31How revolutionary is the Samoa Agreement vis-a-vis the future of the OACP?
20:40I think vis-a-vis the future is that Samoa is indeed a different agreement from what
20:46the Cotonou was.
20:48The Cotonou and Georgetown.
20:50Because, well, the Cotonou had an EDF funding accompanied with it.
21:00This one will have Indiki, which will then mean that there are two different setups.
21:07The European Union works with the OACP under one unique financial instrument
21:16and a global way of looking at things. It is OK. But I think what's important within the OACP is
21:25it's also that people are now looking at each other that, well, we have a world to face,
21:32we need to build our internal solidarity, and that whenever we have to present ourselves
21:39to the world, we have got to be strong from inside and defend each other.
21:43For the years that you have been existing, one of your core mandates is to reduce poverty
21:49within member states. If I was to ask you this question, which kind of project or structure
21:57or initiative or program can you be proud of the past maybe 50 years or 40 years of existence that
22:04this is what we have done to take this community out of the poverty line whatsoever?
22:10Well, indeed, quite a lot has been achieved. First is that during the EDF periods we were
22:18funding nearly all projects related to agriculture, related to women in all our countries,
22:25related to... Strategically, you have been so critical in reducing food insecurity.
22:32Yeah, but what is important for you to recall is that the funds that we have been working with
22:38under the EDF, or even now that under the Samoa Agreement, there are 30 billion dollars for Africa,
22:46800 billion million for Caribbean, and 500 million for the Pacific. This is non-refundable
22:56money. That means that the EU will work with our member states, our member states will have access
23:03to that money during this period of the next 10 years, based on projects that they have to develop
23:10their communities, to fight against poverty, to look at environmental projects within their societies.
23:17So on a scale, I think that we have to indeed appreciate the relationship that we have built
23:26over these many years, and that's why it is still standing, because there is a funding to that,
23:32and it's not something that you need to pay back. All we need is to make sure that we have
23:36projects that are implemented in our countries. Finally, you were elected in 2019 as the Secretary
23:44General of the Organization of the African, Caribbean and Pacific Countries. You are bringing
23:51in roughly 30 years of diplomatic experience within the Angolan diplomatic establishment.
24:02The Secretary General position is a five-year non-renewable mandate. For the time you have
24:10been there, what have you done concretely that if your term of office was to end today
24:17at the end of this interview, you would say that this is what my team achieved?
24:24Indeed, I was elected in 2019, and in 2019, basically I started my mandate on the 3rd of March
24:312020, and I finish on the 3rd of March 2025, that is next year. I think that one of the
24:40challenges I faced was to reform the organization. And indeed, when I came into office,
24:47we had 96 staff. Today we have only 57, so that one is done. Cost effective. Exactly. The other
24:57one we had was to create the Endowment Trust Fund. So the Endowment Trust Fund is created.
25:03A few countries have contributed some money to that, and I think we need to contribute more,
25:08and I do hope that Cameroon will also contribute to the Endowment Trust Fund. I think Cameroon is
25:15one of our largest contributors to the budget, but I think that as we build the Endowment Trust
25:22Fund, we need, that means that we are trying to strengthen the financial capacity of the
25:30organization. But as well, we have been able to expose in as much as we can the organization.
25:37I have participated nearly in all the sessions of the United Nations Conference. I have as well
25:45visited quite a number of other countries in terms of opening the organization to other partners,
25:55and I think that as we go into the future, I think that there is still a lot of work to be done.
26:06I have been able to do the last summit of the organization that took place in Luanda, and then
26:14I think that probably before we leave, or as I leave, the next summit will take place probably
26:21in the Central African region. And so I think that those are some of the outcomes that I have
26:29been able to achieve over these few years, and indeed it is not, it was not easy because
26:37we are also faced with the pandemic, which means that COVID-19, the war in Ukraine, which of course
26:44redefined the global supply systems and troubles. So let me just say that from 2020 to 2022,
26:51very little was done, but I think now that we've been able to do this mining conference in Cameroon,
27:00we had the fisheries conference in Ghana two years ago, we will have another fisheries conference
27:08in Tanzania. I think that we have done quite a lot of work. We have indeed also done the
27:18two documents on the strategy for fundraising of the organization and all those things already.
27:25So I think that there is some ground for my successor to take on.
27:30And with that, we conclude the interview. The Secretary General of the organization of the
27:36African, Caribbean and Pacific countries, Angolan born George Rebello Pinto Tshikuti.
27:45Thank you very much indeed for being guest on my program.
27:48Thank you very much. Thank you.
27:49Obrigado.
27:51Muito obrigado e fala bem português, não sabia.