Overworked? Freedomain Donor Call In

  • 4 months ago
Stefan addresses a caller's challenges with family dynamics after welcoming a neglected child. He stresses the importance of deep conversations to support the adopted brother and encourages prioritizing connections amidst busy schedules. The conversation elaborates on the significance of meaningful interactions, genuine care, and fostering love in relationships beyond surface-level interactions. Stefan delves into morality, self-reflection, childhood experiences, and the impact on navigating family dynamics, highlighting the value of empathy in parenting. The dialogue transitions to entrepreneurial stories, discussing perseverance, problem-solving, and overcoming challenges in the tech industry. Stefan concludes by advocating for delegation, risk-sharing, breaks to prevent burnout, and continuous learning opportunities for long-term success in business and personal growth.

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Transcript
00:00:00Hello, hello, everybody! How are you doing? Got a little bit of time today, thought I'd
00:00:08come in and say, hey! Sounds like the beginning of a country song. So, yes, I just wanted
00:00:16to come in and say hi, everybody, and thank you, of course, for being donors, and I'm
00:00:24here if you have any questions, comments, issues, challenges, problems, whatever's on
00:00:28your mind. I am happy to help, happy to chat, and can be philosophy, can be personal, can
00:00:37be whatever is cooking in your nodules. I'm thrilled to help. I did have a wee something,
00:00:45a wee bit-o-something prepared should we have a slightly shy crowd today, so that is ready,
00:00:53but let me just give a pause here, don't forget to unmute if you have any questions
00:00:58or issues or challenges to take care of.
00:01:04Hi, Steph, can you hear me?
00:01:06Yes, sir, go ahead.
00:01:08How are you doing this afternoon?
00:01:10I'm well, thanks, how are you doing?
00:01:12I have a question about child abuse and child neglect, more specifically.
00:01:18Is that, sorry, is that background noise, sounds like you're doing the dishes or something,
00:01:22is that coming from you?
00:01:24Yeah, I am. I don't have very much time until I have to be somewhere else.
00:01:28Okay.
00:01:30My question is about child neglect. My parents were actually pretty great people.
00:01:38They took a severely neglected child into their home. They never officially adopted it,
00:01:45but he practically became one of my brothers. Now, obviously, when you take a severely
00:01:51neglected child into your home, there is an adjustment period, and there will inevitably
00:01:59be problems. So, my parents sat us down, all our biological children, and they told us
00:02:06about their choice and the problems we were most likely going to experience,
00:02:12which indeed happened. He ordered candy in his room because he wasn't
00:02:21used to free available candy being around. He had some other behavioral issues,
00:02:29which, of course, were a problem for us, and which caused some minor trauma for us.
00:02:36And I'd like to know your thoughts and opinion on that situation that happened.
00:02:42Can you tell me a little bit more about the problematic behaviors?
00:02:49His mother was very, very sick. It was a degenerative disease, so the kid had,
00:02:56my brother had to take care of his own mother when he got home from school.
00:03:00He was a friend of my brother, so when he got home from school,
00:03:07if he couldn't be with us, he would have to go home and take care of his mother.
00:03:13Now, obviously, since he was a kid, he preferred to go to my brother and come to our house.
00:03:20The behavioral problems he experienced were
00:03:25resistance to the authority of my parents, obviously, because they were just real parents.
00:03:33He ordered candy in his room. We always make the joke that, like a dog,
00:03:39he was food-possessive. He didn't communicate any of his plans with my parents,
00:03:49so if he stayed somewhere else or if he went to any other place,
00:03:53he just wouldn't tell my parents. He sometimes wouldn't show up for dinner or lunch.
00:03:59He preferred his computer over people, so he avoided social interactions
00:04:06by feeding into his computer, which did make him a very successful programmer now,
00:04:11so it wasn't all bad.
00:04:18Yeah, I think that covers most of it.
00:04:21Okay, and how old was he when your parents took him in?
00:04:25I don't know exactly, but I think he was around 10 years old at the time.
00:04:31And did he have any siblings?
00:04:33No, no, he didn't.
00:04:34And where was his father?
00:04:37His father was the one that neglected him.
00:04:40So his mother was sick, she couldn't really do anything about it,
00:04:45and his father blamed him for, as in the pregnancy, making the disease worse.
00:04:54What? Sorry, he was blamed for 10 years?
00:04:57Like, he was 10 when his family finally collapsed?
00:05:01His father blamed him for making the mother ill by being born?
00:05:07That's what we think. We never really talked about it with his father,
00:05:10because he obviously defood his father now.
00:05:14But we think that his father either never wanted children in the first place
00:05:21and only did so because his mother wanted to before she got really sick,
00:05:27and that his father blamed him for making the disease worse
00:05:31or never wanted him in the first place.
00:05:35Okay, so his father and his mother were still together?
00:05:40At the time, yes, but shortly after he moved in with us,
00:05:47his father moved his mother to a sick people's home.
00:05:54And did she die shortly thereafter?
00:05:57Not shortly, but several years after.
00:06:00Oh gosh, what was the illness?
00:06:03Multiple sclerosis, so a degenerative nerve disease.
00:06:06Oh gosh, yeah, that's, I don't know,
00:06:10part of me would rather get creamed by a bus on the highway
00:06:14than go through something like that, but all right.
00:06:17Yeah, at least it's quick.
00:06:19Yeah, and it's the suffering that happens to others, to those around you.
00:06:23Yeah.
00:06:24All right, so in terms of father absence,
00:06:28so the father was there, but what, he just didn't take care of his sick wife?
00:06:32He took care of his sick wife to an extent,
00:06:37but my, well, by then brother, he was,
00:06:42before we adopted him, he was just mostly sent to his room,
00:06:45put behind a computer, and everything in the house was locked.
00:06:49So it might even be that his room was locked
00:06:54and that he wasn't even allowed to come downstairs.
00:06:57I don't know that for certain.
00:06:58I know, I, why was everything locked?
00:07:02I mean, is that something to do with multiple sclerosis?
00:07:05No, that was because his father didn't want him touching anything,
00:07:09no food, no candy, nothing.
00:07:11Oh, so the mother was dying and the father was insane?
00:07:15I would say evil, yes.
00:07:19Yeah, no, yeah, certainly, I mean, deranged, right?
00:07:23We can certainly say deranged.
00:07:24And so then you took the boy in,
00:07:29and do you know,
00:07:31yeah, parents, sorry, your family,
00:07:34do you know for how long,
00:07:36did you ever talk to the boy about for how long his father had been deranged?
00:07:42Was this something that arose more with the stress of the mother?
00:07:46Most of his life,
00:07:48his mother was less ill until he was about six.
00:07:53But as far as I remember,
00:07:55she was bound to a wheelchair ever since my brother was about five.
00:08:01Right, okay.
00:08:04Wow, that's a,
00:08:06that's a very, very tough situation.
00:08:08All right, so,
00:08:10sorry, I just want to do a bit of background.
00:08:11Could you remind me of the question?
00:08:13Childhood neglect,
00:08:15because I,
00:08:17my parents obviously weren't perfect.
00:08:20They neglected their biological children to some extent,
00:08:25which is,
00:08:27I think to a certain extent,
00:08:29inevitable.
00:08:30And they also caused some trauma in us by taking in the boy,
00:08:35because,
00:08:36my adopted brother was obviously damaged.
00:08:39And some of that damage reflected on us.
00:08:42Some of his behavior was difficult for us to understand.
00:08:45So while I think they did a good thing,
00:08:48taking him in,
00:08:50and they indeed stood up to child abuse in their direct environment,
00:08:54they took a huge risk bringing him in.
00:08:58And I wanted to ask your opinion and your thoughts about that.
00:09:01Right.
00:09:02Do you think that,
00:09:04I'm sorry,
00:09:05tell me,
00:09:06have you talked to them about their reasoning behind bringing him in?
00:09:09Was it a Christian imperative?
00:09:11Was there some other moral or philosophical imperative that drove them
00:09:14to this place?
00:09:16Yeah,
00:09:17they are Christian.
00:09:18And my,
00:09:20I think my mother found out about the situation through her work.
00:09:25And she,
00:09:26I think my mother found out about the situation through her work,
00:09:31because she works at the school most of the kids went to in our town.
00:09:36And I think my father eventually made the decision,
00:09:39okay,
00:09:40then we're going to take him in.
00:09:41But I'm not,
00:09:42I'm not sure.
00:09:43And was your brother,
00:09:45was he Christian?
00:09:47Was he a believer?
00:09:48Is he that way now?
00:09:50Or what was his faith?
00:09:52I think he's atheist.
00:09:53And as a kid,
00:09:54was he also atheist?
00:09:56Yes,
00:09:57I think so.
00:09:58I don't think his parents were religious.
00:10:00Right.
00:10:01Now,
00:10:02did your parents take him in with the idea or the knowledge that the harm
00:10:07that had been done to him was very likely to be irrevocable?
00:10:12And the harm irrevocable,
00:10:14it doesn't mean,
00:10:15of course,
00:10:16that the person is going to have a terrible life or anything like that,
00:10:18but they can't undo the damage that was done.
00:10:21They can try and work with it.
00:10:24Yes,
00:10:25I think that that was their intention.
00:10:28And also to take him from a very bad situation,
00:10:33at least to not make it any worse.
00:10:37Well,
00:10:38I mean,
00:10:39that's the challenge though,
00:10:40right?
00:10:41I mean,
00:10:42the challenge is,
00:10:43you can say,
00:10:44well,
00:10:45I'll bring in this,
00:10:46you know,
00:10:47very damaged child and maybe that will make that child's life better.
00:10:50But it makes your other children's lives worse.
00:10:55So,
00:10:56it's hard to say,
00:10:57is there a net good in this kind of situation?
00:11:04So,
00:11:05he did better,
00:11:06but of course,
00:11:07he had his issues and he wouldn't respect your parents' authority and so on.
00:11:12And as you say,
00:11:13he wouldn't tell them if he was coming home for dinner.
00:11:15So he was,
00:11:16you know,
00:11:17obviously rude and disrespectful,
00:11:18I assume,
00:11:20and how much did that negatively impact you and your blood siblings?
00:11:30I don't think it did that much.
00:11:33Since I'm the oldest kid,
00:11:35I was 14,
00:11:3813,
00:11:39maybe 14 when he joined.
00:11:43But I think the younger kids,
00:11:45might have been a little bit more damaged by it.
00:11:48I'm not sure.
00:11:49That's why I want your opinion on it.
00:11:52Yeah,
00:11:53I don't think that parents have the right to bring damaged people into the
00:11:58household.
00:12:01I don't think that's a reasonable thing to do,
00:12:04because if you were to say to the children,
00:12:07like,
00:12:08give them the facts,
00:12:09say,
00:12:10okay,
00:12:11this kid's really bad,
00:12:12give them the facts,
00:12:13say,
00:12:14okay,
00:12:15this kid's really,
00:12:16really damaged.
00:12:17He certainly will be unrecoverable in the short run,
00:12:19right?
00:12:20So maybe he goes into therapy when he gets older and so on.
00:12:22But,
00:12:23you know,
00:12:24he's pretty damaged.
00:12:25He's going to be hard to live with and so on.
00:12:27And you say this to your biological children,
00:12:30and you lay out all the facts.
00:12:32Oh,
00:12:33and by the way,
00:12:34now you have to have a relationship with this guy for the rest of your
00:12:37lives.
00:12:38It's not like,
00:12:39you know,
00:12:40uh,
00:12:41we,
00:12:42we often,
00:12:43I,
00:12:44I don't,
00:12:45I'm not friends with anyone from my childhood because that was in
00:12:48England.
00:12:49And,
00:12:50you know,
00:12:51I moved,
00:12:52I was moved to Canada and there was no real way to stay in touch
00:12:55back then.
00:12:56So,
00:12:57I mean,
00:12:58I still have friends from my early twenties,
00:13:00but I don't have any friends from my childhood.
00:13:03So it's not like if this kid turns out to be some kind of weirdo,
00:13:06who's really difficult to get along with,
00:13:08you know,
00:13:09to get along with,
00:13:10but it doesn't change the facts.
00:13:11If the parents lay the case out directly to the children,
00:13:15right?
00:13:16You're going to bring this kid in,
00:13:17you're going to have to have a relationship with him for the rest of
00:13:20your life.
00:13:22And he's pretty damaged.
00:13:25What are the children going to say?
00:13:34I don't think they ever gave us the question.
00:13:37And I don't think they ever took our input.
00:13:39That wasn't my question.
00:13:40What did the children say?
00:13:41Oh, there was a rhetorical.
00:13:43The children,
00:13:49I think they'd be hesitant.
00:13:51Yeah.
00:13:52Well,
00:13:53they'd say no.
00:13:56I mean,
00:13:57of course they would.
00:13:59What advantage is it to the children to have a disturbed child
00:14:03living under their roof that they have to interact with for the rest of
00:14:06their lives?
00:14:09I mean,
00:14:10I'm happy to hear.
00:14:11What's the upside
00:14:14to the kids?
00:14:20To the biological kids,
00:14:21there is no upside.
00:14:22I don't think so.
00:14:23I mean,
00:14:24what's the benefit?
00:14:26Isn't it all negatives?
00:14:28I mean,
00:14:29you were there.
00:14:30Were there benefits?
00:14:36At the time?
00:14:37No.
00:14:38I mean,
00:14:39now he's just another brother.
00:14:41He shows up for family events.
00:14:43We have a lot of fun.
00:14:45So,
00:14:46yes,
00:14:47there are benefits now,
00:14:48but I think at the time it was difficult.
00:14:51Okay.
00:14:52And what's
00:14:54the adopted brother's life?
00:14:55What's his life like as a whole outside of,
00:14:57you know,
00:14:58the fun that you have at the family events?
00:15:00How's his life going as a whole?
00:15:01Is he married?
00:15:02Does he have kids?
00:15:03Is he
00:15:04a good person?
00:15:05Does he contribute to his community
00:15:07in ways other than economic?
00:15:09I mean,
00:15:10what's his life like?
00:15:16Yeah,
00:15:17he's a good brother.
00:15:18He is a software entrepreneur.
00:15:23He shows up to family gatherings for us.
00:15:26So,
00:15:27he now sets
00:15:28my parents
00:15:29as
00:15:31parental figures,
00:15:32at least,
00:15:33not as a biological parent,
00:15:35but as parental figures.
00:15:36He's virtuous.
00:15:38He has some
00:15:39trouble
00:15:41connecting socially,
00:15:42though he's working on that.
00:15:43I think he's going through
00:15:45therapy,
00:15:46though I'm not sure.
00:15:47And we have conversations about our youth
00:15:48and how things went.
00:15:49And
00:15:50he defiled his father.
00:15:51So,
00:15:53overall,
00:15:54he's progressing.
00:15:55But
00:15:56I also think
00:15:57that he
00:15:59was held back
00:16:00socially
00:16:01and has a lot of difficulties
00:16:03regaining that ground.
00:16:06That was an excellent non-answer.
00:16:08You answered everything
00:16:09that I said
00:16:10wasn't important
00:16:11and nothing that I said
00:16:12was important
00:16:13because I asked,
00:16:14does he contribute to his community
00:16:15not from just an economic standpoint?
00:16:17You say,
00:16:18well,
00:16:19he's an entrepreneur,
00:16:20so that's economics.
00:16:21And I said,
00:16:22outside of the family gatherings,
00:16:23how is his life going?
00:16:24And you talked about
00:16:25the family gatherings.
00:16:26So,
00:16:27you know,
00:16:28no problem.
00:16:29I'm just sort of pointing it out.
00:16:30But,
00:16:31okay,
00:16:32does he date?
00:16:33Does he marry?
00:16:34Does he,
00:16:35right,
00:16:36you say he's virtuous.
00:16:37I'd love to hear more
00:16:38about
00:16:39that.
00:16:40So,
00:16:41yeah,
00:16:42I mean,
00:16:43how's his life going overall?
00:16:44I mean,
00:16:45in terms of,
00:16:46like,
00:16:47the personal
00:16:48rather than just
00:16:49the economic and functional.
00:16:50I think
00:16:51he's dating.
00:16:52I don't think
00:16:53it's long term.
00:16:54And
00:16:55what's his age range
00:16:56at the moment?
00:16:57Early
00:16:5830s.
00:16:59He
00:17:00should
00:17:01be
00:17:0231.
00:17:03Okay.
00:17:04So,
00:17:05what,
00:17:06he's just
00:17:07dating around
00:17:08and not settling down
00:17:09and not dating
00:17:10anyone serious?
00:17:11I think
00:17:12he's mostly focusing
00:17:13on his
00:17:14job,
00:17:15on his work,
00:17:16on his career.
00:17:17And I think
00:17:18at the moment,
00:17:19dating is not a priority
00:17:20for him.
00:17:21No,
00:17:22but you said
00:17:23he was dating.
00:17:24Yes,
00:17:25he is dating,
00:17:26but I don't think
00:17:27it's a priority for him.
00:17:28Sorry,
00:17:29I don't know
00:17:30if he's dating
00:17:31anything
00:17:32long term,
00:17:33which would be
00:17:34dating around.
00:17:35Well,
00:17:36no,
00:17:37that's a different matter.
00:17:38No,
00:17:39hang on.
00:17:40So,
00:17:41if I say
00:17:42I'm learning
00:17:43how to play piano,
00:17:44but learning to play piano
00:17:45is not a priority for me,
00:17:46that's kind of a
00:17:47contradiction,
00:17:48right?
00:17:49Learning to play piano
00:17:50is not,
00:17:51in fact,
00:17:52a priority for me
00:17:53in reality,
00:17:54so I don't
00:17:55spend time
00:17:56on the piano.
00:17:57My wife does.
00:17:58I don't,
00:17:59but he's
00:18:00dating
00:18:01women
00:18:02and
00:18:03he's not
00:18:04pursuing anything
00:18:05serious,
00:18:06is that right?
00:18:10Yes,
00:18:11that is correct.
00:18:12Okay,
00:18:13and
00:18:14do you know
00:18:15if the women
00:18:16he's going out with
00:18:17are
00:18:18roughly his age,
00:18:19like late 20s,
00:18:20early 30s?
00:18:22Probably slightly
00:18:23younger,
00:18:24because that's what
00:18:25women prefer,
00:18:26but I'd say
00:18:27roughly his age,
00:18:28Do you know
00:18:29if he dates
00:18:30these women
00:18:31telling them
00:18:32up front
00:18:33that he's
00:18:34got no real
00:18:35interest in
00:18:36settling down
00:18:37in the foreseeable
00:18:38future?
00:18:40I don't know
00:18:41about him
00:18:42not having any
00:18:43interest in
00:18:44settling down,
00:18:45I think he's
00:18:46focusing on his
00:18:47career,
00:18:48and knowing him
00:18:49he'd probably
00:18:50be up front
00:18:51about it,
00:18:52so yes.
00:18:53So you don't
00:18:54know?
00:18:55No,
00:18:56I think
00:18:57No,
00:18:58you're guessing,
00:18:59I mean
00:19:00you know him,
00:19:01but that's not
00:19:02confirmed, right?
00:19:03I'm not saying
00:19:04you're wrong,
00:19:05I'm just saying
00:19:06you haven't asked
00:19:07him,
00:19:08hey listen,
00:19:09you know,
00:19:10like you're,
00:19:11and I guess
00:19:12he's quite successful,
00:19:13right?
00:19:14He's a software
00:19:15entrepreneur,
00:19:16which doesn't always
00:19:17mean successful,
00:19:18but certainly
00:19:19he's,
00:19:20right,
00:19:21so
00:19:22is he reasonably
00:19:23good looking,
00:19:24or fit,
00:19:25or
00:19:26not good looking,
00:19:27I guess,
00:19:28he's a bit
00:19:29skinny,
00:19:30but he's
00:19:31reasonably
00:19:32successful,
00:19:33he's intelligent,
00:19:34so yeah,
00:19:35a woman would
00:19:36be attracted
00:19:37to him.
00:19:38Okay,
00:19:39so he's
00:19:40dating women
00:19:41in their late
00:19:42twenties and
00:19:43early thirties
00:19:44as a successful
00:19:45man,
00:19:46and those
00:19:47women are
00:19:48looking for what?
00:19:49What are they
00:19:50looking for,
00:19:51do you think,
00:19:52in their late
00:19:53twenties and
00:19:54early thirties?
00:19:56He's looking
00:19:57to settle
00:19:58down,
00:19:59and he
00:20:00dates with
00:20:01no real
00:20:02intention of
00:20:03settling down.
00:20:04I don't
00:20:05know that for
00:20:06sure,
00:20:07but I suspect
00:20:08so,
00:20:09yes.
00:20:10Sorry,
00:20:11I'm finding,
00:20:12I'm running
00:20:13into these
00:20:14fog banks,
00:20:15I thought
00:20:16you said
00:20:17that he's
00:20:18not serious
00:20:19really about
00:20:20settling down,
00:20:21he's focusing
00:20:22on his career.
00:20:23I said,
00:20:24I think
00:20:25he's interested
00:20:26in settling
00:20:27down,
00:20:28and he's
00:20:29focusing on
00:20:30his career.
00:20:31That's what
00:20:32we were
00:20:33guessing about,
00:20:34I thought
00:20:35you knew
00:20:36that he
00:20:37was dating.
00:20:38I know
00:20:39he's dating,
00:20:40I don't
00:20:41know if
00:20:42he has
00:20:43the intention
00:20:44to settle
00:20:45down or
00:20:46not.
00:20:47Okay,
00:20:48but have
00:20:49you talked
00:20:50to him
00:20:51about what
00:20:52he wants,
00:20:53you know,
00:20:54no,
00:20:55I don't.
00:20:56So,
00:20:57you're not
00:20:58really close
00:20:59at all,
00:21:00right?
00:21:01No,
00:21:02we
00:21:03don't
00:21:04see each
00:21:05other that
00:21:06much.
00:21:07Well,
00:21:08what do
00:21:09you mean
00:21:10see each
00:21:11other?
00:21:12You and
00:21:13I don't
00:21:14see
00:21:15each
00:21:16other,
00:21:17we're
00:21:18having a
00:21:19conversation
00:21:20about
00:21:21something
00:21:22important,
00:21:23but we
00:21:24don't
00:21:25have
00:21:26communication
00:21:27like that,
00:21:28so he's
00:21:29a bit
00:21:30more
00:21:31closed off,
00:21:32a bit
00:21:33more
00:21:34introverted,
00:21:35but as
00:21:36you said,
00:21:37I can
00:21:38just text
00:21:39him and
00:21:40ask.
00:21:41I mean,
00:21:42are you
00:21:43close
00:21:44to him?
00:21:45I mean,
00:21:46it sounds
00:21:47like you
00:21:48don't
00:21:49know a
00:21:50huge
00:21:51amount
00:21:52about
00:21:53him.
00:21:54Do
00:21:55you
00:21:56know why
00:21:57they
00:21:58end?
00:21:59Probably
00:22:00because he
00:22:01focuses more
00:22:02on his
00:22:03career than
00:22:04on his
00:22:05relationships.
00:22:06Well,
00:22:07I'm not
00:22:08sure about
00:22:09that.
00:22:10So,
00:22:11you don't
00:22:12know why
00:22:13they
00:22:14end,
00:22:15right?
00:22:16I don't
00:22:17know why
00:22:18they
00:22:19end,
00:22:20no.
00:22:21So,
00:22:22he
00:22:23dates
00:22:24these
00:22:25women,
00:22:26and do
00:22:27you
00:22:28know
00:22:29whether
00:22:30it's
00:22:31the
00:22:32women
00:22:33who
00:22:34end
00:22:35it,
00:22:36or
00:22:37he
00:22:38who
00:22:39ends
00:22:40it?
00:22:41I don't
00:22:42know.
00:22:43I don't
00:22:44know.
00:22:45So,
00:22:46why
00:22:47are we
00:22:48talking
00:22:49about
00:22:50this
00:22:51guy,
00:22:52and
00:22:53you
00:22:54seem
00:22:55to
00:22:56know
00:22:57very
00:22:58little
00:22:59about
00:23:00him?
00:23:01I
00:23:02could
00:23:03get
00:23:04more
00:23:05information
00:23:06out of
00:23:07him
00:23:08in a
00:23:0920-minute
00:23:10call.
00:23:11You've
00:23:12known
00:23:13this
00:23:14guy
00:23:15for
00:23:1630
00:23:17years,
00:23:18or
00:23:1930
00:23:20years,
00:23:21and
00:23:22you
00:23:23don't
00:23:24have
00:23:25any
00:23:26particular
00:23:27knowledge
00:23:28about
00:23:29his
00:23:30life.
00:23:31So,
00:23:32you
00:23:33know,
00:23:34the
00:23:35reason I'm
00:23:36asking
00:23:37is that
00:23:38as a
00:23:39relatively
00:23:40in-demand
00:23:41guy in
00:23:42his
00:23:43early
00:23:4430s,
00:23:45if he's
00:23:46dating
00:23:47women,
00:23:49most women in
00:23:50their late
00:23:5120s,
00:23:52early
00:23:5330s,
00:23:54they've
00:23:55had
00:23:56their
00:23:57fun,
00:23:58right?
00:23:59They
00:24:00want to
00:24:01settle
00:24:02down,
00:24:03and
00:24:04either
00:24:05he's
00:24:06saying to
00:24:07these
00:24:08women who
00:24:09want to
00:24:10settle
00:24:11down,
00:24:12I
00:24:13don't
00:24:14want to
00:24:15settle
00:24:16down,
00:24:17but
00:24:18as a
00:24:19high-value
00:24:20male,
00:24:21you know,
00:24:22this is sort
00:24:23of like
00:24:24the women
00:24:25who,
00:24:26you know,
00:24:27they
00:24:28promise to
00:24:29date guys
00:24:30maybe,
00:24:31you know,
00:24:32they're
00:24:33looking for
00:24:34the right
00:24:35guy,
00:24:36maybe
00:24:37it's
00:24:38them,
00:24:39and
00:24:40they,
00:24:41you
00:24:42know,
00:24:43the
00:24:44guys
00:24:45keep
00:24:46taking
00:24:47their
00:24:48life
00:24:49and
00:24:50they
00:24:51keep
00:24:52taking
00:24:53their
00:24:54life
00:24:55and
00:24:56they
00:24:57don't
00:24:58want to
00:24:59get
00:25:00married
00:25:01to
00:25:02a
00:25:03guy
00:25:04that
00:25:05they
00:25:06want to
00:25:07date.
00:25:08But
00:25:09they
00:25:10don't
00:25:11want
00:25:12to
00:25:13get
00:25:14married
00:25:15to
00:25:16at least be upfront about it and he at least would aim for a long-term relationship.
00:25:23But that doesn't always mean that commitment works because of his own issues and maybe
00:25:28because of her issues as well. So he has dysfunctional relationships to some degree?
00:25:36To some degree, yes. So you know that the definition of virtue is not having dysfunctional
00:25:43relationships. So I'll ask again, what is it about him that you feel? Now, maybe he's going
00:25:48to therapy, that's obviously a good thing and so on, if that's what he needs. But what is it about
00:25:52him? And I'm not disagreeing with you, of course, you know him infinitely better than I do. But what
00:25:57is it about him that you find virtuous? I don't know exactly is it a virtue, but he is thankful
00:26:09and, how do you call that, reciprocal to my parents for taking him in. He now accepts their
00:26:19wisdom as parental figures. He, even though he isn't religious, he even visits church when my
00:26:26parents, how do you call that, perform in church, speech in church? Give a sermon?
00:26:35Yeah, give a sermon. He joins in the family gatherings and we have conversations, though
00:26:45it's a bit shallow because it's difficult to have deep conversations with a large group of people.
00:26:53Well, but you can bypass that just by calling him, right?
00:26:57Yes, and I probably should, now that you've mentioned that, I probably should.
00:27:01So, and again, I apologize for not understanding something, I'm sure it's easily explained,
00:27:06but I'm a little confused about how he's very nice to your parents and very grateful to your
00:27:11parents, which I understand and I think that's a nice thing. But if your parents are nice and good,
00:27:17then why would it be brutal for them to read my peaceful parenting book?
00:27:23Because of their own childhood experience. For example, my dad is a rather typical boomer,
00:27:31worked for the government his whole life. Now, he also did some good things, a lot of good things,
00:27:37for example, raising us, but he was still taught by his father that if his wife didn't obey,
00:27:45he had the right to hit her. I don't think he ever did. I only think he hit me once. He
00:27:52immediately apologized thereafter. So, I think they did the best with the knowledge they had.
00:28:02I think they did a reasonable job considering circumstances and now that we have conversations
00:28:09about it, now that they've been reading and listening to your book on peaceful parenting,
00:28:14now that we, in the pursuit of self-knowledge, walk through my entire childhood and are walking
00:28:20through their entire childhood to find the source of their traumas, we also landed on the
00:28:30subject of my adopted brother and taking him in and how much of that was detrimental to their
00:28:39biological children. So… Right. And so, I mean, morally speaking, your first loyalty is to your
00:28:47biological children. Yes, obviously. And so, if you do something that is harmful to your biological
00:28:55children without asking their input, right, you said you were 14 or so when the boy came to stay,
00:29:00is that right? Yes. Okay. Maybe a little younger. Okay. So, let's say you were, yeah, no, 12, 13,
00:29:0714, let's say 13 in the middle, right? Okay. So, you're 13 years old. You can absolutely be asked,
00:29:13do you want this boy to come and live with us permanently and be part of the family forever?
00:29:23Knowing that he's going to be difficult, there are going to be conflicts and problems
00:29:28and challenges, do you want that to happen?
00:29:35So, you can absolutely be asked, right?
00:29:37Yes. Yes, you can. And why were you not asked, do you think?
00:29:49I think because the situation at his home was pretty dire. There was a very high level of
00:29:58neglect. And I think my father at the time made the decision to take him in permanently
00:30:07before that he was to, it might sound very familiar to you, to avoid his home situation,
00:30:16he was at our house a lot. And then come dinner time, he would just kind of hang around hoping to
00:30:24get some dinner because he wouldn't get it at home. So, we allowed him to stay for dinner.
00:30:28And then after dinner, he didn't really want to go home. So, he stayed with us as long as he could.
00:30:33And then at some point, before the street lanterns turned on, we had to send him home.
00:30:40And then it ended up being, he also came over for breakfast because his father locked all the
00:30:46cupboards. So, after a certain time, the only thing he didn't do at our house was sleep.
00:30:54And then my parents found out about the neglect and the abuse, obviously. So,
00:30:59the call to make him actually sleep at our place wasn't even that much of a transition anymore.
00:31:06Right. Okay. And did your parents, I mean, obviously to lock up food would be, I mean,
00:31:13illegal. You have a child at home and you're not allowing the child to get food.
00:31:17That would be a form, I'm no lawyer, obviously, but I would imagine that would be a form of
00:31:20child endangerment or harm to the child's health and so on. So, was there any talk of getting the
00:31:27authorities involved to make sure that the child was taken care of, maybe outside of adopting him?
00:31:37Yes, there definitely was. But I think the authorities are, well,
00:31:43let's just say incompetent and somewhat impotent in that matter.
00:31:49Okay. So, your father worked for the government,
00:31:51but also believed the government was incompetent and immoral?
00:31:54He's a boomer. Yeah.
00:31:57I know, I get it. Yeah. I mean, so, are you happy to have this
00:32:06guy in his early 30s, are you happy to have him as a stepbrother or a brother? Are you happy to
00:32:15have him as a brother? And looking back, are you happy that your parents took him in?
00:32:20Yes, yes, yes, I do. I think it's admirable what they did. I like having him around.
00:32:29Just like me, he has a lot of drive to improve things. He was, same as I am, he's into self
00:32:37knowledge. So, we have that in common and we talk about it.
00:32:40Don't even talk about stuff. What are you talking about?
00:32:43Well, we haven't, we've both, I've been running after my career and my family and he's been
00:32:49running after his career. So, we haven't been talking that much lately. No, that is correct.
00:32:55Okay. Come on, man. Don't give me this mealy mouth nonsense. Sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh,
00:33:00but oh God, if I had a dime for everybody who made up this nonsense about, well, I'm so busy,
00:33:05right? Yeah, you're busy. I'm busy. Everyone's busy. You're not too busy to have this call,
00:33:10right? So, you could be talking to your brother instead. Don't tell me this. I hate these excuses.
00:33:16I really do and it's not personal to you and I apologize for the harshness. It's not personal
00:33:21to you, but the people who blame circumstances for what is clearly a choice are copping out
00:33:27horribly. So, why haven't I talked to him? Well, he's busy. I'm busy. Oh, come on.
00:33:35That's not the case. You're not having the conversations for some reason and to ascribe
00:33:40it to being busy is not true. It's just not true. I should have left for my spinning class
00:33:49five minutes ago. Well, look at that, right? So, you're able to make priorities, right? So,
00:33:53you'd rather go to a spinning class than find out how your brother is doing. Yeah, that's pretty
00:33:59bad. Well, I'm not saying it's good or bad. I just don't like this excuse. Look, I get if you're
00:34:05thrown into some concentration camp, yes, there's a good reason for you not to be in contact. But
00:34:11with all of this communications technology, texting, video, audio, right? I mean, it's
00:34:18ridiculously easy to stay in touch and to have conversations. So, when was the last time you had
00:34:25any kind of deep conversation about your brother and his life and his choices? Not this generic
00:34:29self-knowledge stuff, but you know, what does he want out of life? Does he want to get married?
00:34:33Does he want to have kids? How is his dating going? Why does he break up with the girls? Do
00:34:37they break up with him? When was the last time you had a deeper meaningful conversation with
00:34:42your brother about his life? Not those subjects, but we talked about three weeks ago at my
00:34:51grandmother's birthday. Okay, what about his life? Because, you know, you're asking me sort of to,
00:34:57in a sense, to evaluate the decision to have him in the family. And to do that, I have to do some
00:35:01evaluation of him. And I'm telling you, man, every question I asked, and they're not the only
00:35:06questions to ask, but every question I asked, you didn't know the answer to. I'm not blaming
00:35:10you. I'm just saying that that's a fact, right? So, have you ever asked your brother what does
00:35:19he want out of his life? What, to him, would be a successful life? Not for a while. Okay,
00:35:28so when was the last time you had conversations about that?
00:35:33Probably, I think it was even a while before COVID, so five, maybe seven years ago.
00:35:39And seven years ago, when you asked him what did he want out of life, or what would he consider a
00:35:44successful life, or something like that, what did he say? He said he wanted a career in IT,
00:35:52his company to do well, and he wanted a permanent relationship.
00:35:57Okay, so I assume his company's doing all right?
00:36:00His company is doing very well, yes.
00:36:03Okay. So, for seven years, you've known that he wants a permanent relationship. I mean,
00:36:09I don't know what people do. He wants to get married, right? He wants to settle down and get
00:36:12married, right? And does he want kids, or did he want kids back then, or has he ever mentioned
00:36:16anything about that? I don't know if he wants kids. I think he does, but I don't know.
00:36:21Okay. So, seven years ago, he told you he wants to get married,
00:36:25and how have you helped him achieve that goal over the last seven years? Because you're family,
00:36:30right? So, you should look out for each other, and you should really help each other. And also,
00:36:33you know that he had a lot of difficulties with social stuff, and he was neglected, and so on,
00:36:38right? So, how have you been helping him? Have you been checking in with this goal, and he keeps
00:36:43dating these girls and breaking up? So, for seven years, your brother has wanted to get married,
00:36:52and what have you done to help him achieve that goal or check up on his progress
00:36:56towards that goal? Well, I guess the goal is not working, because he keeps dating and breaking up,
00:36:59which is actually moving away from marriage, because he keeps getting his heart broken,
00:37:02which makes it tougher to trust, it's tougher to pair bond and settle down. So, for seven years,
00:37:08and I'm not trying to be harsh, I'm just genuinely curious, right? For seven years,
00:37:12your brother has said, this is what I need to be happy, is to get married, and he keeps dating
00:37:18girls and breaking up, which means he's moving further away from pair bonding. So, what have you
00:37:22done to help him achieve his goal, knowing all the difficulties that he had growing up that would
00:37:28stand between him and that goal? I wasn't the only one, but we suggested therapy, I pointed him to
00:37:35watch a show in the pursuit of self-knowledge, but I haven't asked anything about his relationship
00:37:41with women. So, you sent him to me into a therapist? I didn't send him, I- No, but you
00:37:48suggested it. Yes. So, you wanted other people to have the meaningful conversations with your brother?
00:37:59I guess, yeah. I guess I avoided that. I mean, you understand the problem is that,
00:38:08well, he makes me laugh at family gatherings, you know, come on, man.
00:38:13You're his brother. He's had these huge difficulties growing up,
00:38:17and he's missing half the happiness in his life. Are you married? Do you have kids?
00:38:27We really should have told my girlfriend, but I'm about to propose.
00:38:30Well, congratulations. So, you're in your mid-40s? I'm in my early 30s. I'm 33.
00:38:43Okay, sorry. I thought the- Sorry, I made that mistake, but you're- So, you're 33. Okay. So,
00:38:51sorry, that was my bad math. I got the 13 years, but it was 13, he was 10. Okay, got it.
00:38:57Well, congratulations for that. So, you are- I assume she's going to say,
00:39:01yes, you sound like a wonderful fellow, so- I assume, yeah.
00:39:05Yeah, yeah. So, you are able to achieve what he wants, but you haven't helped him directly
00:39:14or asked him questions about his progress. And it's not a big criticism, but, you know,
00:39:19you've listened to this show where we have deep conversations all the time, which is simply to say
00:39:23loving conversations. Deep conversations are loving conversations, right? And do you love your
00:39:27brother? Well, it's kind of hard pointing out now that you asked about his virtues, but yes,
00:39:39I would say I love him. Okay. So, if you love him, don't you want to help him achieve what he wants,
00:39:46in particular, in the areas where he has difficulties and you have skills?
00:39:50Absolutely, yes. Okay. So, if you have some skills in terms of dating and getting married,
00:39:56and he says that what he wants to be happy is, you know, the part that you can't really help
00:40:02him much with his business, I assume, but the part where you have- Yeah, you have an excess
00:40:06of skills relative to him regarding dating and settling down, and he has a deficiency of skills,
00:40:12which would come out of his childhood. So, why haven't you helped him with things that you're
00:40:17better at that he desperately wants? I don't know. I probably have been avoiding it for some
00:40:23reason. Okay, but you do know. Sorry, you know, everyone says that. Oh, I can't possibly know.
00:40:31I'm going to ask again. Okay, it's this, right? So, why- I mean, if you love him, you don't want
00:40:37to see him suffer, right? And you certainly don't want him to- if he's treating these women at all
00:40:42badly, and I'm not saying he is, right? But if he's dating and not settling down, and the women
00:40:49want to settle down, he's not treating them well. And you don't want that to accumulate in- I'm not
00:40:55saying he is, but if that's the case, right? Or, obviously, he's choosing the wrong women. If he
00:41:00wants to settle down, but he breaks up with a woman every year, on average, then he's not dating
00:41:06the right women, he's not choosing the right women, which is bad for him, right? And it's bad for the
00:41:10women, too, because it breaks their heart, harms their pair bonding. You know, it's not good for
00:41:14civilization as a whole for people to keep dating and breaking up, right? Especially when they get
00:41:18into their 30s. I agree. Okay, so, and he's going to end up with less trust and more self-doubt,
00:41:27because he keeps failing at something, right? And he keeps failing at something that he really wants
00:41:33to succeed at, and you've succeeded at it, and you've listened to this show, so why wouldn't you
00:41:39sit down and say, okay, let's go over your dating, how you're choosing these girls, you know? I've
00:41:43got some skills, you've got some deficiencies. I mean, if you were starting a software company,
00:41:47wouldn't he give you some help? I wouldn't recommend me starting a software company.
00:41:53No, no. Let's do a hypothetical. It's percussive maintenance.
00:41:57Yeah. If you were doing something in a field where he had real expertise and you were lacking
00:42:04knowledge, wouldn't he help you? He absolutely would, yes.
00:42:09Okay, so why don't you help him?
00:42:15I should. I don't know why I haven't. Probably because I,
00:42:23and I don't know why, probably because I feel uncertain about it myself.
00:42:29Uncertain about what?
00:42:30Uncertain about, I don't feel as uncertain about proposing. I know my girlfriend is going to say
00:42:37yes. I know that I can't do any better. I know she can't do any better. I picked out a nice ring,
00:42:44picked out a nice venue, but I don't know why I've never asked his specific brother
00:42:50about his relationship with women.
00:42:54Well, you don't have to also be an expert to ask someone something. I mean,
00:43:00you don't have to have all the answers. It's just, you know, you said seven years ago,
00:43:04my brother, you said you wanted to get married and you keep dating and breaking up. Like,
00:43:12what do you think's going on? Or how's it going? Or what goes wrong with,
00:43:15you don't have to have answers, right?
00:43:17Like, if somebody's ill, you don't have to have the cure to ask them how they're doing, right?
00:43:23No, I don't.
00:43:26Because it seems to me that this is a pretty shallow relationship.
00:43:31And so, if this brother was brought into your family and there was some significant negatives,
00:43:38less so for you because of your age, but more so because of your age,
00:43:42and there was some significant negatives, less so for you because of your age,
00:43:47but more so for your younger siblings. So, if the boy was brought into your family
00:43:54and there was a lot of problems with that, and then you end up with this shallow nothing burger
00:43:59surface level relationship, then it definitely wasn't worth it. You know,
00:44:02the only way to make it worth it is to actually have a connected relationship with the man.
00:44:07Yes, I agree.
00:44:08Otherwise, it was all negative, and then this shallow, goofy shit happens afterwards.
00:44:14At least be close! That makes it worth it, doesn't it? Otherwise,
00:44:17he's just some guy who hangs around at family gatherings.
00:44:21I also don't agree. I also don't agree. It was all negative. We had a lot of fun
00:44:27as brothers, but yes, I do agree that...
00:44:31Sorry, maybe I misspoke. I don't remember saying it was all negative.
00:44:36I said there were some significant problems, which is what you told me. I didn't think...
00:44:39I never said it was all negative.
00:44:41No, it was a hypothetical. If it were all negative, I think you said that,
00:44:45but it doesn't really matter. I think I agree with you. I know I agree with you
00:44:50that I should strive to improve my relationship with him and have more often deep conversations
00:44:57about his goals.
00:44:59Well, yeah, maybe certainly more than once, like more than once every seven years might be a
00:45:03good plan.
00:45:04Yes, yes.
00:45:05I don't want to tax or burden you, but maybe more often than that.
00:45:10And then, I don't know the answer, but it's worth asking yourself or him. Like,
00:45:15why do you think we don't talk about these things? Why are we not close?
00:45:19Why are we avoiding it? Yeah.
00:45:21Well, why are we avoiding, in a sense, being related or being connected?
00:45:27Because he also might resent you. I would. I would resent you. I'm not saying I'd be
00:45:32right in doing that or whatever, but I'll tell you that I would absolutely resent you.
00:45:36If I had shared with you my desperate desire to get married, to be happy,
00:45:41and you knew about all the barriers I had as a result of neglect,
00:45:45and then you sailed off and got married and didn't help me or ask me about it once,
00:45:49I'd be pissed.
00:45:51That could be why we're avoiding it.
00:45:52You're avoiding the avoidance. Like, you're avoiding the inevitable results of leaving
00:45:56something for seven years, because you, of all people, probably better than anyone,
00:46:02knows the difficulties this guy faces with regards to pair bonding, right?
00:46:11Yes.
00:46:11So, you, of all people, know his challenges in this area the most,
00:46:18and you don't talk to him about it at all.
00:46:26No, I really should.
00:46:28Well, he might be annoyed.
00:46:31Obviously, you can't speak for him, but I'd be pissed. Be like,
00:46:34well, I told you about this seven years ago, and it never crossed your mind?
00:46:38Like, why are you asking me now? Oh, I talked to this guy on the internet.
00:46:41Really? Never crossed your mind? Knowing that I was severely abused and neglected as a child,
00:46:47and I can't keep a girlfriend, you never thought to ask me how it's going,
00:46:52or give me any feedback, or anything like that?
00:46:55So, where's that coming from? I mean, that avoidance, is it coming from your parents?
00:47:00Is that what's modeled? Do your parents not talk about anything?
00:47:03Is that why the book is, the Peaceful Parenting book is so tough for them? Like,
00:47:06where is this avoidance?
00:47:07Can you still hear me?
00:47:09Yeah, I can. Well, not if you were just talking, but I can hear you now.
00:47:15So, where does the avoidance come from? Why does it not occur to you?
00:47:19Yeah, why does it not occur to you?
00:47:20So, where does the avoidance come from? Why does it not occur to you?
00:47:23Yeah, why does it not occur to you, given that you know how much about his neglect and abuse,
00:47:28why does it not occur to you to ask him questions about his relationships?
00:47:36We may have lost him. Going once, going twice.
00:47:39No, you haven't. I'm thinking.
00:47:42Oh, yeah. Sorry, I don't know. I just hear sounds.
00:47:46Yeah, well, that happens when I think. There's also the grinding of gears and
00:47:52things imploding. It could be his resentment. I'm not saying he does it consciously,
00:47:59but it could be his resentment that that is somehow coming through,
00:48:03and that's why we avoid the subject.
00:48:06Well, what about your parents? Do your parents talk to him? Sorry,
00:48:09you said that he's solved things with your parents.
00:48:12Solved things with your parents. So, do your parents talk to him about his life?
00:48:17Have you ever heard of anything like that? Have they ever said,
00:48:19oh, we had a conversation with your brother because we understood all of his abuse and
00:48:23neglect as a child, and we know he wants to get married, and he keeps dating these
00:48:27girls and breaking up with them. So, have your parents had conversations with him
00:48:32about his life or his goals?
00:48:34Yes, they have, yes. But he is a bit avoidant about it.
00:48:38He doesn't tell a lot of people. He's a bit introverted.
00:48:46Well, close.
00:48:46Not a lot of people are talking about your parents. I mean, you avoid so much,
00:48:50even in this conversation. I keep having to cut through this fog.
00:48:53Like, this avoidance is coming from somewhere. I wasn't asking, does he talk to a lot of people?
00:48:57It's your parents. You say he's fixed his relationship with your parents, which is good.
00:49:01So, they know his history, and being a bit avoidant? Okay, well, so what?
00:49:07I mean, frankly, you're being a bit avoidant. That doesn't mean I give up on the conversation.
00:49:11I'm not pointing it out in a negative way, but it is kind of happening, right?
00:49:14So, you're patient, and you're persistent, and you're curious, right?
00:49:18And this is important if you're going to get married, right? You're asking the girl tomorrow.
00:49:38Again, yay, wonderful. But you need to figure out why you might have this avoidance about some
00:49:44basic conversations with people about their lives, especially when you know the challenges they face.
00:49:49Because if that shows up in your marriage, that's going to be very tough for your marriage.
00:49:56And yeah, so again, I'm not sure if he's still here or not, but
00:50:00sorry, I'll just pause here for a second.
00:50:03Oh, I muted myself again. Can you still hear me?
00:50:06Yeah, go ahead.
00:50:07I haven't yet figured out where the fog is coming from, but I think it is important if we want to
00:50:15progress our relationship to anything beyond what we have now, the very shallow...
00:50:21Yeah, you have less than nothing now, because he's got the pretense of a relationship without
00:50:25any particular curiosity or intimacy or caring. So, do you think that you've been virtuous with
00:50:30regards to your brother, knowing that he wants this thing that, because of his childhood,
00:50:34is very hard for him to achieve, and you've ignored all of that for at least seven years?
00:50:40No, I should have done way better.
00:50:42Okay, so I think having that humility is really important. And listen, we all
00:50:47mess up with these kinds of things, and in the short run, it's a lot easier to avoid.
00:50:51But to me, it's like, okay, so your siblings had difficulties because your brother came to the
00:50:57family, and now nobody has any real connection with him at all, so the whole thing was a giant
00:51:01waste of time. If at least you get some connection out of it. I mean, he was neglected as a child,
00:51:09and your family is neglecting him as an adult. Do you see what I mean?
00:51:14Yes, we're repeating that pattern.
00:51:16So what's the point of all that? What was the point of bringing him in,
00:51:20this child who was neglected, in order to continue to neglect him and not talk to him
00:51:24about anything important? Well, at the time, it was my parents trying to be virtuous,
00:51:29being good Catholics, at least attempting standing up to child abuse in their immediate area, so
00:51:37they did their best. But I think that if we want anything positive out of it,
00:51:42we really have to work at it and have deeper, meaningful conversations with them.
00:51:49No, and I appreciate what they did. I mean, of course, they did it to some degree based
00:51:54upon the concept of the soul. So in the soul, there's always an unharmed person within.
00:52:01And physically, biologically speaking, there isn't. There's no unharmed person,
00:52:07there's no unharmed ghost inside the mind of an abused child. And so they may have,
00:52:13based upon the concept of the soul and of prayer and of God healing and so on,
00:52:17they may have turned it all over to God, they may have prayed for him, but they wouldn't necessarily,
00:52:22this is why I asked earlier, did they understand the kind of burden that they were taking on?
00:52:27And with the concept of the soul, then there is a possibility of infinite healing
00:52:33through prayer and all of that. And so my guess is they probably underestimated the challenges
00:52:40that were occurring, that's number one. And number two, to stand up against child
00:52:45abuse means to say, this boy was neglected, we better teach him about closeness. This boy
00:52:52had parents who were fundamentally indifferent to him, so we better not as a family let him go
00:52:57seven years without asking any important questions. We don't want to reproduce,
00:53:00to a smaller degree of course, but we don't want to reproduce the neglect
00:53:06that his parents inflicted upon him by not asking him questions. He needed to be led
00:53:11to the green fields of human contact. And we're not just going to abandon him to fix everything
00:53:18himself and to just do his own thing, because that was his childhood.
00:53:22So I'm not sure that the foundational issues of the neglect have been solved.
00:53:29I'm fairly certain they haven't. I agree.
00:53:32Right. So that to me is the issue that you can do something about now.
00:53:39Okay, thank you. I now really have to go. I have to turn body heat into Bitcoin.
00:53:45Well, all right. He's going to sacrifice himself in the incompire of minor GPUs. All right. I
00:53:52appreciate that. It's a great, great chat and great conversation. And yeah, just remember, like, don't
00:54:00don't just let people drift and bump and float around like a bunch of helium balloons.
00:54:04Don't just let people drift and bump and float around like a bunch of helium balloons.
00:54:09Like, you really, really do want to connect with people and ask them how
00:54:12they're doing. My friends will know this, perhaps annoyingly at times, that I'm checking in with
00:54:17their lives and seeing how they're doing because, you know, it's fun to have fun.
00:54:22But they're, sorry, if the person who's talking, if you're leaving, if you could mute,
00:54:27I'd appreciate that.
00:54:29Yes, but one of the, I'll tell you one more thing. Don't hold back on being harsh.
00:54:33I really need is that.
00:54:34Okay. You're very welcome. And I want to be harsh, but I also don't want people to tip
00:54:39into self-attack, right? Because that doesn't help. That's just another way of avoiding
00:54:42closeness is to just self-attack, right? Okay. If you're done, if you could mute,
00:54:46I'd appreciate that. And I really do appreciate the conversation. But yeah, connect with people,
00:54:50man. Life's short. You know, we are shot from a cannon. And before you know it, we land in a
00:54:55grave and all our decisions have been made and nothing else is left to decide. And if you can
00:55:00decide and you can decide, ask questions, ask important questions. Don't just live on social
00:55:06media or on the surface or on video games or on media. Ask people important questions about their
00:55:11lives. What will make you happy? If you care about people, you want them to achieve happiness. And
00:55:17we all got to watch each other's back. Nobody's self-sufficient. I'm not, you're not, nobody's
00:55:21self-sufficient. Like we evolved as social animals, which means we've outsourced a lot of our
00:55:26thinking and reflection to those around us. And, you know, out of the objectivism thing, you know,
00:55:33there's this glorious self-generating self-sustained heroes, you know, like the Howard Rourkes and the
00:55:39John Galts and so on. That's, that's all fantasy. This is all, I mean, they have as much realism as
00:55:45Superman. So we are social animals and we've evolved that way. And the social connections
00:55:52are very, very important. We are easily distracted by the detritus and details of the moment and we
00:55:57lose the big picture all the time. And we need to be reminded of the big picture. And that's what
00:56:03philosophy is for. And that's where we really connect. And that's where the caring is. So
00:56:08don't let seven years go by without asking someone you care about how they're doing in what they
00:56:14desperately want that they have the most difficulty in. That's not right. And you can't get that time
00:56:18back. And it leaves a lot of cynicism in its wake. I mean, how is this guy supposed to feel valued if
00:56:24his own family doesn't even bother to ask him how he's doing when they know exactly the difficulties
00:56:29he faces in the realm of relationships? Oh, go to therapy. Oh, listen to Steph. It's like, okay, those
00:56:34things are fine, but they're not exactly the same as, you know, a loving, caring friend or family
00:56:42conversation. You know, when you, when you ask someone how they're doing, you say, you know,
00:56:47your happiness matters to me. You really matter to me. If all you do is make jokes and watch memes,
00:56:53then you're saying your depth and happiness and potential don't matter to me at all.
00:56:59And all I care about is distraction. Well, we can easily be distracted to death. The death
00:57:07of relationships, the death of connection, the death of intimacy, the death of curiosity, the
00:57:11death of love. You want to check in with people, ask them how they're doing. What's the big picture
00:57:16of their life where they want to be in five years? How's the progress of their life? All of these
00:57:22things. And avoiding that, I mean, if you want to avoid that, okay, whatever, right? But it just
00:57:29means that you don't really understand philosophy. And I would argue you don't really understand
00:57:34love. Love is not just having shits and giggles at a family gathering. Love is helping people
00:57:40achieve what will make them happy because you're better at some things and other people are better
00:57:46at other things. Everyone who says we don't need others, just build your own house, fix your own
00:57:51car, build your own printer, build your own from scratch Wi-Fi router, your own carpets. No, we're
00:57:59all completely interdependent on each other economically and psychologically, which is why
00:58:04it's so important to have good people around you. Bad people will mess with your head and turn you
00:58:12against yourself and good people will help you connect with the behaviors that will bring you
00:58:17the most happiness. And we can't avoid the effect that people have on us. We can only choose that
00:58:23effect by choosing the people. And if you want to choose good people, you have to be a good person.
00:58:27And that means if you know somebody has a psychological wound from their childhood,
00:58:31which you don't have, and you've known them for 30 years, 25 years, then you should help them.
00:58:39Shouldn't you? I mean, if you're out with a friend hiking and your friend twists his ankle, don't
00:58:47you at least get him a stick or help him back or give him a shoulder to walk on because his ankle's
00:58:53twisted or something? I mean, you don't just walk on like nothing happened, do you? Except this guy
00:58:58does and this family does. This kid was wounded as a child and I have great sympathy for that.
00:59:04The family was not wounded in the same way, so they should help him,
00:59:07just taking him in. And that's good. I'm not saying that's unimportant, but
00:59:11don't let time go by. Don't let life go by without telling people how much they mean to you and how
00:59:15much you care. So, all right. Appreciate that. Anybody else with anything that's... Oh, you're
00:59:22mad. I'm happy to hear. Just don't forget to unmute. Maybe people are at work.
00:59:37I was going to say, you brought up love here and it's hard to... I've been trying to wrestle with
00:59:53what it means to be loved and you're kind of cutting out there because it's something I'm
01:00:00currently struggling with and kind of unwinding the lack of it.
01:00:13Sorry. Yeah, you're going to need to give me a little bit more detail. That's very abstract. I
01:00:17have no problem with that, but you're going to have to break it down a little bit for me, brother,
01:00:20if you could be so kind. Well, you know, it's me again from the sexless marriage conversation.
01:00:29That was kind of the salient point. Like, oh, you've never experienced love. It's like,
01:00:35you told me that and that really hit me like a back truck and I've been kind of unwinding it
01:00:44from there. We had then talked about my sister
01:00:53and how I defended my parents when my sister was upset, you know, in the future conversation.
01:01:00And now I'm thinking about my brother and how he was a social pariah growing up.
01:01:09And it's all coming back to that same one point. Like, nobody's experienced love in my family.
01:01:16And even today, I was just kind of journaling about it. I owe my brother a big apology
01:01:29because I treated him just like I treated my sister, thinking there was something wrong with
01:01:33him when he was just responding to a lack of love, from what I can tell.
01:01:40And how did you communicate that to your brother?
01:01:44I haven't yet. I mean, this literally just...
01:01:46No, no, sorry. I was completely unclear. Sorry about that. How did you communicate to your
01:01:52brother that he was deficient when he was a social pariah as a child?
01:01:57We were actually having a fight because he had moved in with my parents and which
01:02:04kind of disrupted our relationship, me and my parents' relationship. And it came up and I said,
01:02:11yeah, you've always... Sorry. You've always been a kind of a social problem. Like,
01:02:21you never really got in with the group. You were the guy who's coping with everything.
01:02:29You were the guy who's poking at people, just kind of nasty,
01:02:39not aware of a group dynamic and not playing along with it. And he was upset about that.
01:02:50And I'm thinking about it. I'm just getting curious about it. Why would you do that?
01:02:56So...
01:02:57Sorry. There's a lot of ambiguity in what you said. Was he blind to social dynamics,
01:03:01but you also said he was mean. So was he clueless or cruel or both? Well, it's tough to be...
01:03:07I think it's hard to say. I don't know.
01:03:12No, you said it. I mean, you said it to him, so you must have had some thought behind it.
01:03:19How was he cruel in social situations?
01:03:21He would just do the unpopular thing on purpose.
01:03:30Okay, but I'm not sure. Can you give me an example? I never know how to follow
01:03:34these abstractions that everyone uses.
01:03:35Right, right. So like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. We can... So I remember at summer camp when
01:03:43there was just a group discussion and he was talking about women and submarines or
01:03:49something stupid like that. And he's just going to say the unpopular opinion on purpose to get
01:03:57flack. People are like, well, I don't think women should be on submarines. Who cares?
01:04:02You're just making everyone upset because they all, whether they're right or wrong,
01:04:08think women can go on submarines. You standing up for that had no benefit.
01:04:15And now I feel the obligation to defend you in your position.
01:04:21Sorry, I'm a little confused. What do you mean that he doesn't believe that women belong on
01:04:27submarines? So he's being honest. So what do you mean it has no benefit? You're saying he
01:04:34should just lie and that's the benefit. But if he tells the truth, there's no benefit in him
01:04:38telling the truth.
01:04:41From a social standpoint, he's setting himself up as the outcast.
01:04:46And then I have to be the outcast with it.
01:04:50So he's setting himself up as the outcast. So people who want you to lie will not like you
01:04:56if you tell the truth. I mean, isn't that... You think that's a bug? Isn't that a feature?
01:05:01No, that's why I think I owe him...
01:05:02Why would you want to be in a group that punishes you for telling the truth?
01:05:08Correct.
01:05:09Then the price to entry to the group is self-erasure and self-destruction.
01:05:14I don't want to be in that group.
01:05:18Right. So I came to this realization about an hour before the show. I'm like,
01:05:28people don't love... I don't think we've ever experienced love. And he's just fighting for
01:05:36someone to actually give a crap.
01:05:40Okay, sorry, I'm being jerked around here like the tail of a kite. I mean,
01:05:45you just characterized your brother in a particular way that he's like a troll who
01:05:49just wants to be the outcast and is making things really difficult for you, right?
01:05:54Right. And that was me mischaracterizing him. That was...
01:05:57In the past. So this is not how you would characterize it now,
01:06:01but that was how you would characterize him in the past.
01:06:04Correct.
01:06:05Okay. So now do you have some respect for his ability to tell the truth,
01:06:09even if people crap on him about it?
01:06:12Yeah.
01:06:14Okay. And have you told him that?
01:06:17Oh, you said it was just an hour before the show that this really...
01:06:19Right.
01:06:20Okay. Yeah. So a little tough to do that right then. Okay.
01:06:27Yeah.
01:06:29So I'll tell you a terrible secret, if you don't mind. I know you have more to say,
01:06:33but I'll tell you a terrible, but liberating secret.
01:06:37So the most common reaction for people who feel that they've never been loved
01:06:42is to try to search to be loved. I mean, it's a natural thing. I'm thirsty. Well,
01:06:50I'll go get some water, right? I'm hungry. I'll get some food. I'm tired. I'll rest.
01:06:55So when we feel that we're deficient, we look for something to fill that up with, right?
01:07:00I've never been loved, right? This is Freddie Mercury's plaintiff warble, right? Can anybody
01:07:05find me somebody to love? Well, he's actually wanting to give love and that's sort of a
01:07:10different matter. That's why that song is so interesting. It's not, can anybody find me
01:07:13someone to love me? So you feel unloved and your natural instinct, and I understand that it's
01:07:21everyone's natural instinct, is to say, well, I haven't been loved. So what I need is to be loved
01:07:28and that will fix it. Does that make sense? Sure.
01:07:33Sorry, I'm not sure. Sure is one of these things. Sure. It sounds like you disagree.
01:07:37You kind of agree. I agree. I agree with the logic.
01:07:41That would be the natural inclination. And it's the exact wrong thing to do.
01:07:48It's the exact wrong thing to do. If you have been unloved, the only cure is not to be loved,
01:07:56but to find a way to love others. Because if you are unloved as a child, you're in a passive
01:08:05situation. And if as an adult, you put yourself in a passive situation, you have no control
01:08:12over your happiness. The only active situation is not to ask for love, but to provide love.
01:08:18Because otherwise you're on your knees begging. And I'll tell you, brothers and sisters,
01:08:24it is an extremely dangerous world to show your needs to.
01:08:30Because the moment you say, I'm miserable, I've never been loved, I just need someone to love me.
01:08:35Well, people will exploit you. You don't bring good people who love you,
01:08:41you bring bad people who see your need and use it to twist and exploit you.
01:08:46Whereas if you say, I want to love someone, to fix not being loved, I want to love someone,
01:08:52to provide what you were denied, that puts you in a situation of control,
01:08:56of command, of initiative, and it does not leave you vulnerable to exploitation.
01:09:04So, it is understandable when people say, I haven't been loved. Boy, do I ever need someone
01:09:09to love me, love me, love me, love me. Well, the people will come in, the predators will come in,
01:09:14the sociopaths and the nasty people will come in and say, ah, I smell the sweet scent of need.
01:09:22Great, now I have someone to manipulate, I have someone to bully, get resources from, exploit,
01:09:26and that's when you get into pretty dangerous territory. Economically, psychologically,
01:09:32and from a relationship standpoint, it's really dangerous to show naked need to the world,
01:09:37because it's like, it's blood in the water for sharks, right?
01:09:46But then to find someone to love, right, you have to find someone who's virtuous,
01:09:50and in order to find someone virtuous, you have to be virtuous.
01:09:54To beg to be loved doesn't require that you be virtuous, it only requires that you have needs.
01:09:59But if you say, I want to love someone, then you have to find someone worthy of love,
01:10:02which means you have to be virtuous as well, because otherwise the person won't show up in
01:10:07your life if you're not virtuous. If they're virtuous enough to be loved, they won't show
01:10:10up in your life if you're not virtuous. And if they do show up in your life through some miracle,
01:10:17they won't respect your love if you yourself are not virtuous. You'll just be trying to
01:10:23manipulate them. Well, I'll love you, but you have to give me something in return. You know,
01:10:27I'll love you, but it's really a cover for me needing to be loved, and that's a cold,
01:10:33transactional desperation to avoid suffering. So to want to be loved puts you in a position
01:10:39of weakness and being exploited, but to want to love others, to say that the solution to my
01:10:44not being loved is not to be loved now, which is impossible because it's a situation of need,
01:10:49not of virtue. And people can't love need. They can't love need because need is desperate,
01:10:56and it's not refined. There's no discrimination. It's just need, need, need, and that's the kind
01:11:03of desperation to that. But if you say the solution to not being loved is to become worthy
01:11:10of loving others and discriminating and making sure that I give my love to a good person and so
01:11:16on, that's the solution to not being loved, is to love others, not to be loved yourself. So I just
01:11:23wanted to mention that. I'm sorry, I know you had more to say, but I just wanted to point that out.
01:11:28No, that's very relevant because it kind of flips the natural inclination on its head.
01:11:34Sure.
01:11:35Kind of, you need that. Yeah.
01:11:40Yeah. Having excessive needs is like eating your seed crops. You're satisfied in the moment,
01:11:43but you starve to death over the winter, right?
01:11:48Yeah. It's just very weird growing up in that circumstance.
01:11:55Sorry, which circumstance?
01:11:56Discovering it.
01:11:57Everyone's so vague today. What circumstance?
01:11:59The lack of love, having neglectful parents, et cetera. And then you come around to the idea,
01:12:10oh, my concept of love and what it means to be loved has been wrong this entire time. Okay, now what?
01:12:20But the real question, I think, and it's a great question, I think the most foundational question is
01:12:25why do parents withhold love? I mean, they know they shouldn't, right? Say,
01:12:30is it important to love your kids? Everybody and their dog would say yes, right? So then the real
01:12:34question is why do parents withhold love? What is the purpose? What is the goal? What is actually
01:12:41happening? And your parents were neglectful, is that right? They withheld love?
01:12:47Yeah.
01:12:48So why? Why did they do that? They knew it was wrong.
01:12:51They knew it was wrong. What's the motive?
01:12:54Too painful.
01:12:56Sorry?
01:12:57Pain avoidance, I would guess.
01:13:01Well, love is not pain.
01:13:04Right, but to, like, I experienced this with my own child. Like, being loving to her exposes the
01:13:13pain that I experienced earlier.
01:13:18So?
01:13:18Just bring it back.
01:13:20Hang on, hang on, hang on. No, no. So saying something's painful, there's no reason as to
01:13:25why it doesn't occur. I mean, is it fun to get your teeth scraped at the dentist?
01:13:30Of course not.
01:13:31No. I mean, but you do it. Is it fun to pay taxes? It's not, but you do it.
01:13:36Is it fun to work out? Often not, but you do it. And we say to our kids all the time,
01:13:43it does, like, to only do what you want is hedonism. We say, oh, well, you can't just
01:13:46eat candy. Well, that's what I want to do. Well, you've got to eat your broccoli,
01:13:50because it's got better nutrition than candy, right? So first of all, we say to our children
01:13:55all the time, do something even though it hurts. And just because you don't want to do something
01:14:01doesn't mean that you shouldn't. Well, I don't want to do the dishes. Well, you know, it's your
01:14:04turn and we all got to pull our weight and blah, blah, blah, right? So if you say, well, parents
01:14:09don't do something because it's unpleasant or painful, well, they do lots of things that are
01:14:14unpleasant or painful, so that's not an answer. And also they encourage their children, in fact,
01:14:18might punish their children for only acting hedonistically. So they have the value even of
01:14:22doing things that are the right things, even when it's painful. And they know that it's the right
01:14:26thing to do to love their children. So saying it's painful for them, that's why they don't do it,
01:14:32is not an answer. Sorry, I hate to be annoying, but it's not an answer.
01:14:35It's a lack of virtue on their part.
01:14:39No, that's not enough either, because a lack of virtue is not
01:14:44cruel to others. So it is cruel and destructive to me, at least after sexual abuse, it's the
01:14:53most destructive. And I sort of make the case for that in my book, Peaceful Parenting, of course.
01:14:58So a lack of virtue is a neutral state, right? So if, let's say that I don't give to some guy
01:15:08on the street corner, whatever, so I haven't actively harmed him, right? Now, if I punch him,
01:15:12I've actively harmed him. But if I just don't give him 20 bucks, I haven't actively harmed him.
01:15:16Now, let's say it would be better or nicer virtuous to give him 20 bucks. So an absence of
01:15:20virtue is not the infliction of pain. It's just not helping. You know, if my friend, let's say
01:15:27that, you know, my friend has helped me move a bunch of times, and then he asked me to go and
01:15:31help him move, and I pretend I've got a shoulder injury or something. Now, I'm not inflicting,
01:15:36like, it's not like he can't move, right? He can just get other friends or hire movers or whatever,
01:15:40do it all himself if he can. So I'm not directly harming him. I'm disappointing him and all that,
01:15:46but I'm not directly harming him by not being reciprocal. I mean, I may be harming the
01:15:51relationship in some ways, but I'm not, it's not illegal to not be reciprocal, to not help your
01:15:55friend move, even if it's helped you move. It's not immoral. It's not a violation of UPB. And so
01:16:02it's not, even if you're not nice and not reciprocal,
01:16:06it's not, it's not, quote, moral. You're not harming people directly, but neglect harms
01:16:12children directly, and everybody knows that. Everybody knows that neglect harms children,
01:16:15which is why, right, all the movies with good parents, the parents don't neglect the children,
01:16:20and everyone says, should you spend time with your children? Yes. Did you love your children? Yes. Do
01:16:24your children need you? Yes. Everybody knows the answers. So if you know all the answers,
01:16:29but you're neglectful anyway, why? Because they prefer it.
01:16:34Okay, but that's tautological. Why does someone do something because they prefer it? Well,
01:16:37but why? It's what they want to do. Okay, I guess it's what they want to do, but why do they want
01:16:42the purpose of them doing it? Why do they want to do it? To mess up their kids. Yeah, it's sadistic.
01:16:52So petty people feel power by provoking needs in others and refusing to satisfy that need.
01:16:57Right? Yeah. So petty people can't have other people really want to spend time with them,
01:17:01or like them, or pursue them, or hold them at high esteem or value.
01:17:05So what petty people do is they provoke needs in others, and then they refuse to satisfy those
01:17:12needs. And the easiest way for petty people to have other people need them and then not
01:17:18supply that need is to have children and ignore them. Because then you're in a kind of a
01:17:26because then you're in a constant position where the children want you, they need you,
01:17:29they're thinking about you, and you feel like you're all kinds of important and valuable.
01:17:34Bureaucrats do this sometimes too, like they invent all these laws, and then you need the
01:17:38bureaucrat's approval, and they get this satisfaction because they've created this
01:17:43barrier, and then you need their approval. And so you've got to defer to them, and it makes them
01:17:47feel important and powerful and all that. So yeah, to create an artificial need or to create
01:17:53a need and then refuse to satisfy it is a fundamental power play of, you know,
01:17:58fairly contemptible people. Yeah. Well, the issue I'm struggling with this now is,
01:18:08like, so my brother didn't lie about it, and then I did. And that...
01:18:16Okay, how many times do I have to say? Stop being so abstract. My brother didn't lie about it,
01:18:22and I did. What the hell are you talking about? Give me some details.
01:18:26Well, like I said, in the exam, he was being honest about what he thought. I chose not to
01:18:34be honest about it. I chose to protect my parents and say, oh, there's something wrong with my
01:18:40brother when he was, what appears to me like he was expressing his lack of love,
01:18:52and I was trying to cover it up. That's how I look at the relationship now.
01:18:59He was expressing his lack of love? Sorry, was it new information that you said? I don't remember
01:19:07it. I'm sorry if I forgot. New information that you went to your parents and said,
01:19:10there's something wrong with my brother because he doesn't think women belong in submarine?
01:19:15It was, I thought he was being bad by being honest about that,
01:19:21even though it was an unpopular opinion. And my thought was, why try and rock the boat?
01:19:31No, it was just trying to get people to approve.
01:19:32Rock the boat, I get it, because submarines.
01:19:40But that whole thing that he wanted to, his whole inability to socially connect with everyone
01:19:49around him, and that's probably the piece of the context.
01:19:52Sorry, I never know whether you're talking about the past or the present,
01:19:55his inability to socially connect with people around him.
01:19:58Okay, so this is your opinion about him in the past?
01:20:02Yes.
01:20:02Okay, sorry, I don't know if you're talking about your evaluations in the present,
01:20:06because you were just talking about how there was something wrong with your brother that you
01:20:08said to your parents, and I don't know if you're talking about then or now.
01:20:12Right, right. This is all in the past. This is me thinking about growing up with my brother in a
01:20:17church environment, social church environment. And he was always very unpopular, because he
01:20:24would say unpopular things. I bring up the example of the submarine,
01:20:28because on its face, what is the point of even talking about that? Who cares?
01:20:35And I'm looking at it from a third-person perspective, going,
01:20:41why are you even bringing this up? And I'm trying to make sense of it.
01:20:45Well, sorry, he's not bringing up the submarine topic, right? Other people are.
01:20:50Right. He's bringing up someone, I forget who brought it up. It may have been him.
01:20:54No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who brought it up, but it wasn't him who brought it
01:20:57up, right? What the heck is that sound? Everyone's on an airplane or something.
01:21:09Regardless, he was being honest. I was saying, safe face, for the sake of the group,
01:21:18and he was really just upset at the group.
01:21:23Right, because this is a group of Christians, right? You said it was supposed to be the church?
01:21:28Right. You're supposed to show the love of Jesus here.
01:21:32Well, it's even more foundational than that, right? One of the most important commandments
01:21:38is, thou shalt not bear false witness, right? Right.
01:21:42So they should have respected him for telling the truth, and they should have not punished
01:21:47him for telling the truth, because that's kind of satanic, isn't it? To punish someone
01:21:50for telling the truth? Yeah, it's ultimate hypocrisy.
01:21:58So he was right and moral and good and noble and true and Christian in every sense.
01:22:04Right. Okay, so you sided with the hypocrites and the
01:22:08semi-devilish people against your own brother.
01:22:12Right. Okay. And what did your parents say when you brought this to their attention?
01:22:18Well, I haven't brought it up to their attention.
01:22:21Uh, no, sorry. I thought we were talking about the past. See, now we're in the present again.
01:22:25Okay, so no, I'm talking about when you went to—
01:22:27Well, I never mentioned it to my parents.
01:22:29No, but didn't you say to your parents this—oh my gosh, this is such a confusing conversation—didn't
01:22:33you say to your parents that there was something wrong with your brother, like back in the day,
01:22:39because he couldn't get along with people?
01:22:42No, I never said that.
01:22:43Oh, my apologies. I must have misunderstood something. I thought
01:22:46you had gone to your parents and said that there was something wrong
01:22:48with your brother because he couldn't get along with people.
01:22:52I—did I say? Do I have to rewind it?
01:22:56No, no, if you didn't—like, even if you said it and didn't mean it or I misinterpreted it,
01:23:00it doesn't matter, right, because I don't want to obviously base anything on something that you
01:23:03didn't say or don't believe. So, okay.
01:23:06Yeah, yeah, it—our relationship, like, it was always tenuous because of that social dynamic,
01:23:17that he was always, you know, quote-unquote, rebelling. I don't mean that in the—rebelling
01:23:21from the context or the sense of the social group, like, oh, he's just a guy that—
01:23:25So why do you think you were—why do you think you were so sensitive to the social
01:23:29group and to social disapproval? You're an older brother, right?
01:23:34I'm younger, actually.
01:23:36Oh, you're younger. Oh, so it's your older brother who was telling the truth. Okay,
01:23:39that's good. It's a little unusual, but it doesn't really matter. Okay. So, yeah,
01:23:42why do you think you were so concerned with other people's potential disapproval for
01:23:48your brother telling the truth?
01:23:52I think it has to do with just looking for love, having that need for love,
01:24:00not getting it from my family, and saying that those other people are the only other humans
01:24:08in my life. I viewed him as jeopardizing that possibility of getting acceptance.
01:24:19Okay. Now, what's—I mean, what's one logical problem with that?
01:24:24You're going to have to tell me.
01:24:32Well, you're concerned about a lack of love within the family, and you're betraying your
01:24:36brother for the transitory approval of unjust strangers. So you're concerned about the lack
01:24:43of love in your family, and you're betraying your brother. So you're part of the lack of
01:24:49love in the family that you're complaining about. You're part of the problem that you
01:24:52say you want to escape.
01:24:55Right. Okay.
01:25:05So how do you fix this?
01:25:07Oh, so you're jumping—oh gosh, everyone's saying—so you're jumping straight from
01:25:11there's an identification of a problem to, well, what do I do?
01:25:14Right, right, right.
01:25:15I don't know why this is such a compulsion. It's okay to just get your insights and your
01:25:19thoughts and not rush straight into action, because the action is designed to drown out
01:25:23the conscience, right?
01:25:26Now, of course, you can have sympathy for yourself. I mean, how old were you when this—we're
01:25:31talking about deep conversations, and we actually are referring to a submarine.
01:25:35Okay, what's long and hard and full of semen? Anyway, that's a whole different—
01:25:39So how old were you when the submarine conversation occurred?
01:25:43I would have been probably 10.
01:25:46Right. So you're acting off instinct, and so you obviously wouldn't hold yourself morally
01:25:51accountable for betraying your brother, you know, at the age of 10. And how old was he?
01:25:59He would have been 12.
01:26:0112. Okay, so, you know, this is not something that you would say,
01:26:06oh, I have sinned at the age of 10 for not understanding the complex dynamics of neglect
01:26:12and need and desperation and honesty and thou shalt not bear false witness and demonic false
01:26:16selves, right? You understand, you were 10, right?
01:26:21Yeah, yeah.
01:26:22And this hadn't been mine, right?
01:26:26Correct.
01:26:26Integrity and virtue and, you know, like I've always said to my daughter, like,
01:26:32whatever conflict you get into in public, I'm 150% on your side. I don't care if you're saying
01:26:37that two and two make five. I'm absolutely agreeing with you. 150% I'm on your side. Now,
01:26:43later, maybe we can unpack it a little more or whatever. But if any conflict happens,
01:26:48I'm 150% on your side. I have to be because I've raised her, right? So that's the sort of
01:26:53loyalty that you need. And because of that, she really doesn't get into many conflicts,
01:26:57because everyone knows this as being a dim shadow we saw on Eye of Dad is floating around.
01:27:01So plus, you know, her knowing that rule makes her think about conflicts, too.
01:27:09Yeah, no, I do want her to stand up for what's right. But you also have to know
01:27:14when there are fights you can win and fights that you can't, right? There's a
01:27:17correction is the better part of valorous is something that, you know, you have to
01:27:21be judicious with your courage. Otherwise, it becomes an excess of courage, which is
01:27:24self destructive. Foolhardiness, right? Angels rush in where fools rush in where angels fear
01:27:29to tread, and so on. So yeah, you didn't have any of this modeled. And, you know,
01:27:34I hope that you wouldn't. I mean, it sounds like you feel really bad about what you did when you
01:27:39were 10. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's your parents. That's your parents having you attack
01:27:45yourself rather than blame them. You know, like if, if some if someone taught you horrible swear
01:27:50words, as the name for common things, like, you know, they said, Oh, the name for tree is MF,
01:27:56or something like that, right? And you said, Oh, hey, look at that MF, right? pointing at the tree.
01:28:01All right, right, right. Would you say and people would get really upset about that?
01:28:06Would you then say, Well, gee, I was just a terrible kid. I look I swore.
01:28:12No, not at all. Right. You'd say my parents were really cruel to teach me these false things.
01:28:20Right. Your parents didn't teach you loyalty. They didn't teach you standing up for the people
01:28:26you love. They didn't teach you integrity. They didn't teach you about honesty. They didn't
01:28:31really teach you much about Christianity. Of course, right. So how are you supposed to know
01:28:35these things? You can't invent the wheel. You can't invent philosophy at the age of 10 and
01:28:39come to all of these sophisticated conclusions yourself. It's impossible. So the reason that
01:28:44you're mad at yourself is your parents would rather you be mad at yourself than at them.
01:28:48Than at them. And the reason you can't get mad at your parents is I assume they were neglectful.
01:28:53It's a theme for the day, right? And because they're neglectful, they're saying to you,
01:28:58we don't have a bond, kid. So if you displease us, something wrong with you.
01:29:02Well, no, the reason the reason parents also neglect their children is so that their children
01:29:07don't criticize them. Weak, petty people can't take criticism. Because they're wedded to the
01:29:15vainglorious and rather psychotic delusion that they always have to be right. And so they can't
01:29:19take criticism. Right. And so the way that you make sure that your kids, the way that you make
01:29:23sure your kids never criticize you, is you, you neglect them so that they don't have the strong
01:29:29enough bond to push back when you do something wrong or contradictory, or foolish or silly or
01:29:36whatever. The inability to take criticism was the one thing that was modeled.
01:29:42Well, no, because now you're criticizing yourself. So it's not like, sorry to be
01:29:47contradicting you every time you, I apologize. But I mean, you criticize yourself. So you take
01:29:51criticism from yourself, right? Did your parents self-criticize, do you think, in the same way?
01:29:57No, I don't think so. I think they thought they were right all the time.
01:30:01Right. Which means, of course, in any conflict, you have to be wrong.
01:30:05Yeah. And they would rather you self-attack than criticize them at all.
01:30:25Yeah. And I'm really sorry about that. That's very sad.
01:30:28And yeah, don't get mad at yourself for what you did when you were 10.
01:30:35That's not fair. I mean, you wouldn't.
01:30:38That's because your parents were mad at you when you were 10 and wouldn't take any self-criticism.
01:30:42You know, if my daughter behaves badly at the age of 10, I don't remember that she ever did
01:30:46in any particular way. But if my daughter behaved badly at the age of 10, who would I criticize?
01:30:52The only person you can't criticize is yourself at that point. Because you're the one who—
01:30:58Yeah, I mean, it would be on me, right?
01:31:03I mean, that's the deal, right?
01:31:08Yeah. It's funny. It's like, I was talking to people at church yesterday,
01:31:15and they said, you know, when the three-year-old's behaving badly,
01:31:19I asked them, what does that mean exactly? How does a three-year-old behave bad?
01:31:26Because a three-year-old can't behave badly. That's putting a moral claim
01:31:34on someone who can't even speak. How does that work?
01:31:40Right.
01:31:42Of course, it was the mom. She kind of stared at me, like, give me the ostrich half-cock.
01:31:50Think about it. If they can't articulate words, how can they behave bad?
01:31:57Right. But then you criticize a child, and then the child is desperate for your approval,
01:32:03and then you have power over the child. Yay! More power, more power, more power.
01:32:08And this probably goes into the whole peaceful parenting thing. At what point do you start
01:32:12correcting with words or say something like, hey, that's a bad behavior? It has to be when
01:32:19they can comprehend, right?
01:32:21Sorry, when do you say to children that's bad behavior?
01:32:24Yeah, like, you know, for example, if my daughter were to hit somebody—
01:32:29Why would your daughter hit somebody?
01:32:31Well, exactly, yeah, because she'd see someone else hitting or see me hitting someone.
01:32:35Yeah, if you've allowed aggression into her environment.
01:32:38Right.
01:32:40It's like saying, why would my daughter speak Japanese? Because she's raised with
01:32:43Japanese in the environment, right?
01:32:46So here's a good one, if we want to non sequitur. My daughter was having problems.
01:32:52She wanted to use a swing yesterday that another child was using, and she asked nicely,
01:32:59but the other child said no. Told her, said, well, you know, sometimes that happens.
01:33:06And I said, well, we'll come back, you know, give it five minutes, we'll do something else,
01:33:10and I bet you she'll be off the swing, which she wasn't. She was fine.
01:33:15But in the moment, she was really upset she didn't get the opportunity to get on the swing.
01:33:21Sure. And how old is your daughter?
01:33:23She's five.
01:33:23She's five.
01:33:24Okay, way to anticipate the question. Good job. All right. So she's five.
01:33:29Is there a better way to handle that situation?
01:33:32So at five, yeah, that's interesting, because this is the primary thing is to talk about empathy.
01:33:38So you talked about delayed gratification, right?
01:33:42Yeah.
01:33:42Right. So you could wait. And I think I may have had this exact conversation with my daughter,
01:33:48because, you know, you go to parks, and they want to do something and somebody else is using it,
01:33:50right?
01:33:51Right.
01:33:51So we went away, we came back.
01:33:54And I was pushing my daughter on the swing, and she was having a great time.
01:33:58And I said, boy, you're really happy to be on the swing, aren't you? She's like, oh, yeah.
01:34:02And I said, now, if another kid comes along and says he wants to be on the swing,
01:34:06what are you going to say?
01:34:08No.
01:34:09Ah, you see?
01:34:10Right.
01:34:11That's what the girl was doing. Now you understand why she was doing what she was doing,
01:34:15because she was having a great time. Maybe she just got on the swing.
01:34:18So you don't want to give up the swing.
01:34:19She was on there.
01:34:21No, you didn't want to give up the swing.
01:34:22She was on there for a while.
01:34:23Hang on. So I said to my daughter, you didn't want to give up the swing,
01:34:26and she didn't want to give up the swing.
01:34:28And you'd be upset if I, like, let's say some other kid came and said,
01:34:31I want to be on the swing.
01:34:33And I pulled you out and said, you've got to give the swing to the other kid.
01:34:35You'd be upset.
01:34:36Right.
01:34:37Right? So this is just an empathy thing, to put yourself in the position
01:34:41not of the person who wants the swing, but of the person who has the swing.
01:34:45Because now you are the person who has the swing.
01:34:47So you were really upset because the kid didn't want to give up the swing.
01:34:50And now you don't want to give up the swing.
01:34:52So it's just a way of understanding and putting themselves into someone else's shoes.
01:34:59Right. I remember that.
01:35:01It was particularly hard because the kid that was on the swing
01:35:04was obviously younger, I would have guessed about maybe three and a half to four,
01:35:09just learning how to talk.
01:35:10So there was, like, no way to reason.
01:35:14Well, no, but why would you want to reason?
01:35:18Why would you want to talk the kid out of being on the swing?
01:35:21In other words, what would be the benefit?
01:35:24I wouldn't.
01:35:24No, but I get that.
01:35:26So, and I remember having a conversation, like, well, can't you just,
01:35:30you know, you're good at talking, talk her off the swing, right?
01:35:33And I said, look, I don't have anything to offer that child.
01:35:41So it would just be kind of like, don't do what you want for no reason.
01:35:47Give up the swing for no reason.
01:35:51Right.
01:35:51So I don't have any negotiate.
01:35:52I can't negotiate with someone I have nothing to offer to.
01:35:55Does that make sense?
01:35:57Like, I'm just going to go up to this kid.
01:35:58I'm going to have to say, the only thing I'm going to be able to say is,
01:36:01you're being selfish for not sharing the swing.
01:36:03All I can do is threaten a negative, because I've got nothing positive to offer.
01:36:08And even that is bearing false witness, because she's not being selfish.
01:36:11No, of course she's not.
01:36:12Like, I would have to go up and be mean and lie to her about being a mean kid who,
01:36:17you're not sharing, that's selfish.
01:36:18I'm just mad.
01:36:19And it's like, but that's just threatening someone.
01:36:22And applying a negative is not a negotiation.
01:36:26It's just a threat.
01:36:28Right.
01:36:29And this is interesting, because this situation and how it played out,
01:36:33and what we're discussing is the exact opposite of my job.
01:36:38All manner of accusations of selfishness.
01:36:41Like, if I were to superimpose myself in the swing, it would be,
01:36:47you need to get off the swing right now, because you've had long enough.
01:36:51So we have this arbitrary, you've been on the swing for too long,
01:36:54and someone else needs a turn.
01:36:55You have to share, blah, blah, blah, blah.
01:36:57Right.
01:37:01Yeah, so.
01:37:04Yeah, so you don't have anything to offer, so you just threaten.
01:37:07You know, like some guy who sticks a gun in your ribs in the alley and says,
01:37:11give me your wallet.
01:37:12I mean, he doesn't have anything to offer, so all he's got is a threat.
01:37:15He doesn't have anything to negotiate with.
01:37:19Right.
01:37:19I mean, I remember as a six-year-old, I didn't have any money.
01:37:24Like, I was in this boarding school, but my father paid for it from a distance,
01:37:28and my mother didn't have any money, and there was no money.
01:37:31And in the boarding school, they have something called the tuck shop.
01:37:35And in the tuck shop, you could go and buy sweets and what they call them, crisps,
01:37:42basically potato chips.
01:37:44Yeah, yeah.
01:37:45And so on.
01:37:45Right.
01:37:45So you'd be able to buy it.
01:37:46I can translate to British.
01:37:48Yeah.
01:37:49So all these little treats and so on.
01:37:52And I never had any money.
01:37:53And all the other kids would buy these sweets and candies.
01:37:56And it was pretty terrible, because I wasn't going to beg and cajole and, you know,
01:38:02hey, man, share, you know, being mean, right?
01:38:04I just, this is a pride thing I've had from the very beginning.
01:38:06Like, I do my best to not beg from a situation of weakness, because that's
01:38:13pretty tragic.
01:38:15And it's not my fault that I'm in a boarding school with rich kids,
01:38:17and I don't have any money.
01:38:19I mean, we went to a fair, and I desperately wanted to, you know, throw one of these
01:38:23balls at the bowling pins.
01:38:25And if you knock one over, you got a coconut.
01:38:27And I was desperate for a coconut.
01:38:29And I didn't have any money.
01:38:31And I remember the teacher was actually kind of nice and gave me the, I think it was
01:38:35five pennies to throw the ball.
01:38:37I threw the ball and I missed, but it was at least nice.
01:38:38I remember that very clearly, somebody being nice about it.
01:38:41So I was in the tuck shop one day, and I had a little pencil sharpener that had a gold-painted
01:38:50little train engine on top.
01:38:52And the gold-plated little train engine was kind of cool, I suppose.
01:38:56And so I tried to sell my little pencil sharpener.
01:38:59Now, I knew that I needed the pencil sharpener, so I carefully removed the toy train,
01:39:04the little, just like tiny little thing, like half the size of your thumb.
01:39:07And I went around, because you could get a piece of candy for half a penny.
01:39:11And, you know, at the age of six, I'm going around trying to sell my little gold-painted
01:39:16toy train figurine for half a penny.
01:39:20And nobody wanted it.
01:39:24So I didn't have anything to negotiate with.
01:39:26I wasn't going to beg, right?
01:39:28Because that's just, you know, that's the mark of a slave, it feels like, always has.
01:39:33So I just had to do without the candy for years.
01:39:36Like I went to that boarding school for like two years, and I never had any money.
01:39:40And I could never buy anything.
01:39:43And when we went through, we went through these various manias.
01:39:46This is sort of like when COVID hit.
01:39:48I'm like, oh yeah, I saw this when I was six.
01:39:50And the two manias in particular, I remember, it's sort of the manias that go on with kids
01:39:54who are alienated and trapped.
01:39:57And one of them was Conker's, like these chestnuts that you'd put a string through a chestnut,
01:40:02and you'd swing and hit the other one.
01:40:03And you'd hope to have the one that broke the other one and not be broken yourself.
01:40:07So we did these Conker things.
01:40:08And the Conker, I get it, like C-O-N-K-E-R, but it's also C-O-N-Q-U-E-R.
01:40:13So Conker was one.
01:40:14And then we went through this wild phase of paper airplanes.
01:40:17Who could make the best paper airplane?
01:40:18Who could go the fastest?
01:40:20Who could make it do the most loops and so on?
01:40:21And I didn't even have any paper.
01:40:23Like I didn't even have any notebooks.
01:40:25So I ended up having to tear a page out of my personal copy of the Guinness Book of World
01:40:34Records.
01:40:35It was a page with Roman coins, I remember.
01:40:37And I got seriously lectured about, well, you shouldn't be ripping up books.
01:40:40Your mother worked hard, spent a lot of money, blah, blah, blah.
01:40:43And it's destructive.
01:40:44And I got this big, long lecture in front of the whole class about property and so on.
01:40:48But nobody ever seemed to care that I didn't have any money to buy anything and had to
01:40:53make do with a bunch of stuff.
01:40:55So yeah, that's just part of the general hypocrisy.
01:41:00They beat me with a cane.
01:41:01And then they said it's really important to be moral and not tear up books.
01:41:07Who's been leaving books out to spoil?
01:41:08Sorry, that's a line from one of my favorite movies, Room of the View.
01:41:11So yeah, I say, well, I want to get on that swing.
01:41:16It's like, well, what do we have to offer?
01:41:19Like we want the kid, and I say this to my daughter, what do we have to offer?
01:41:24Right?
01:41:24I want to get on that swing.
01:41:26Oh, okay, cool.
01:41:27What do we have to offer?
01:41:31It's a long pause, right?
01:41:32Yeah.
01:41:34And because we don't.
01:41:35And so if we don't have anything to offer, we just have to wait.
01:41:38In the same way that when I was a kid, if nobody wanted to give me half a penny for
01:41:41my little golden toy train thing, I had to not have candy.
01:41:48If you don't have anything to offer, don't do anything, because all you can do then is
01:41:52threaten.
01:41:54And you don't want to do that, because, you know, if you're on the swing and some kid
01:41:58comes along and starts yelling at you and calling you a bad person because you don't
01:42:01give up the swing, that's not a good thing.
01:42:03That's not a good thing.
01:42:05Right?
01:42:05So, yeah, I mean, at five, certainly she can get the empathy thing where she can say,
01:42:09because she's on one side of the equation and her need for the swing is bottomless,
01:42:13and then her desire to hang on to the swing allows her to connect with the emotions of
01:42:16the other person.
01:42:18Because you can't negotiate without empathy.
01:42:20All you can do is bully, right?
01:42:22Empathy is, okay, if I were in your shoes, what would I want?
01:42:24And, you know, the kids didn't want my crappy little half flaked off gold painted toy train
01:42:31thing.
01:42:31And so, you know, honestly, I didn't want it either.
01:42:35Otherwise, I wouldn't have been trading it.
01:42:36So, yeah, I mean, it's important in life as a whole that if you don't have any leverage,
01:42:41don't negotiate, because all you can do is beg or bully.
01:42:44And both of those things are not great.
01:42:46So, sorry, long story, but I hope it makes sense.
01:42:49No, it makes total sense.
01:42:50And that's a great approach to teaching these sorts of things, because, yeah, I want her
01:42:57in the headspace of being able to offer something valuable versus, you know, whining or cajoling.
01:43:05Yeah, or crying or getting mad or, yeah, yeah.
01:43:08Because then that's just the infliction of a negative, right?
01:43:11That's the same as saying you're selfish.
01:43:12It's like, father, you get me what I want, or I'm going to inflict a negative on you
01:43:16called crying and making you feel bad.
01:43:17And it's like, that can't work.
01:43:19And it's the same thing with kids too.
01:43:21Like my daughter would say, I really, really want X, right?
01:43:24So, for a while, she was really into toy snakes, and she gave them all these names.
01:43:29And it was actually kind of funny, because she was so young, she couldn't come up with names.
01:43:32So, we had one called Tree, one called Window, one called Plant, because these were the things
01:43:36that were in the room when she was naming it.
01:43:37And she's like, what are you going to call it?
01:43:38Uh, hey, Tree.
01:43:40And so, we had all these things named.
01:43:41I guess it was the Native American naming style.
01:43:44Her cousin has named a duck Doodah.
01:43:49Deedah?
01:43:50Doodah, like Old Doodah Day.
01:43:53Yeah, that makes sense.
01:43:53Yeah, Doodah the duck.
01:43:54I believe that's the beginning of the song.
01:43:56It's imprinted.
01:43:57Yes.
01:44:01So, she was really into these, and we went to a, oh gosh, it was like an apple picking
01:44:08place and all of that.
01:44:09And they had a little gift shop, and they had these big, big puffy cloth snakes.
01:44:17And she's like, oh, I really, really want one of those, right?
01:44:19And she was very young, right?
01:44:21And then, as a parent, you think that you have to say yes or no, right?
01:44:29And it's a balance, right?
01:44:30Because you don't want to say no all the time, because then her desires mean nothing.
01:44:35You don't want to say yes all the time, because then she has an unrealistic expectation of
01:44:38resources, right?
01:44:39It doesn't learn how to limit her preferences or tastes.
01:44:43So, pretty early on, I was like, well, I don't have to say yes or no.
01:44:48I can ask her to tell me more about what she wants and what it makes her feel.
01:44:51And then I would say, okay, you know what, let's go up and down the store.
01:44:55Let's point at everything we really want.
01:44:59For me, I mean, I have a sweet tooth.
01:45:02That's why I had to give up sugar, right?
01:45:03Back in the day, I'd be like, oh, unless I could take this whole roll of candy.
01:45:07I could take this whole row of candy.
01:45:09I could literally eat it on the way home, and I don't think I'd get sick.
01:45:12Like, I want everything.
01:45:13It's so shiny.
01:45:14It's so pretty.
01:45:15And, oh, I like snow globes.
01:45:16Those snow…
01:45:17And so, we would just go around talking about all the things we want.
01:45:21And so, that was a lot of fun, and we never ended up getting the snake.
01:45:27Because if we can talk about things we want, it doesn't mean it has to translate into
01:45:31getting things.
01:45:34You know, I remember when I first was an entrepreneur, and I had a budget, and basically, I could
01:45:40buy any cool technical toy I wanted.
01:45:43Anything.
01:45:46And this was mind-blowing to me, because I remember saving up for, like, three months
01:45:50to buy 32K of RAM from a guy in a parking lot.
01:45:53Probably was as hard as a bomb.
01:45:56But, and I just remember, like, not having money for that.
01:46:01I remember the first IBM PC I bought, $850, with a 20-meg hard drive, and, you know, I
01:46:12And just, I think it was one meg of RAM, or something.
01:46:18It was a 286, and all of that.
01:46:21And that's because I was into the Atari 520ST, but their hard drive, their external
01:46:27hard drive, was over $1,000.
01:46:30And I thought, okay, well, for $850, I bought a second-hand PC, which I then wrote my entire
01:46:36novel, Revolutions, on.
01:46:37It was, like, a really good investment, in a way.
01:46:39But, so, sorry, for most of my life, I couldn't buy cool stuff.
01:46:45And then, when I was chief technical officer, I had a big budget.
01:46:47I could buy any cool thing that I wanted and justify it.
01:46:49And I wanted everything.
01:46:52I still do.
01:46:52I mean, you can't give me a tech toy and not have me have a happy, idiot-grinning afternoon.
01:46:58And so, learning how to limit, when you get older, right?
01:47:00You can have all the candy you want, but learning how to limit is important.
01:47:03So, you can have a desire for something without indulging in that desire, right?
01:47:07So, I wanted to teach her that wanting something doesn't mean you have to get it or not get
01:47:11it.
01:47:11You can just explore that feeling and talk about all the things you want and have a great
01:47:14deal of fun with that kind of stuff.
01:47:16But it doesn't have to translate into getting it or not getting it.
01:47:18And that's the battle, if that makes sense.
01:47:21Yeah, it makes sense.
01:47:23Because then you're, kind of, because, yeah, you're trying to dig into the motivation behind
01:47:28the desire.
01:47:29Yeah, and what you're doing is you're modeling wanting things without getting them, which
01:47:34teaches kids something about self-discipline.
01:47:36Now, we're at the point where I have to really, really encourage her to buy things.
01:47:40Like, we were at a renaissance fair not too long ago, and she liked this or liked that
01:47:46and all of that.
01:47:47And I was like, no, no, get it.
01:47:48She's like, no, I can get it cheaper somewhere else.
01:47:50And it's like, yeah, but think of the time.
01:47:52Oh, it doesn't matter.
01:47:53Like, so, it's not like it's gone too far the other way, but now she's like, you can't
01:47:57get her to spend money on anything.
01:47:59Steph, Steph, Steph, you can't argue time variable to a 15-year-old.
01:48:04Yeah.
01:48:05Well, no, because, yeah, for her, this is the thing.
01:48:07For me, for me, shopping is like going to the dentist.
01:48:10Like, I'll do it, but the sooner I get out, the better.
01:48:14But what I don't understand, and, you know, femininity is a vast unexplored continent
01:48:19for most of the male mind, and, you know, Lord love these mysteries.
01:48:22I'm not sure I want to penetrate the cloud cover of that ecosystem.
01:48:25But for me, like, oh, I have to go do more shopping.
01:48:29Like, I'll just buy something and that's it's done.
01:48:32But she likes the shopping.
01:48:33She likes the browsing.
01:48:34My wife's the same way.
01:48:35It's like, maybe it's some, like, I just want to hunt the thing and bring it down and bring
01:48:39it home, right?
01:48:39That's like the hunter thing.
01:48:41But they're all like, well, let's explore.
01:48:43And it's that gathering thing.
01:48:44And maybe there's, you know, she's like, every time we go somewhere, it's like, hey, can
01:48:47you lift that lock up?
01:48:48There could be salamanders underneath this thing.
01:48:51So, that's the, so she enjoys the gathering.
01:48:54I don't.
01:48:55And that's just a delightful difference of the delightful incomprehension and wonder
01:49:00of the sexes.
01:49:01So, yeah, she's, I'm like, yeah, but you have to spend time looking for it.
01:49:04It's like, but I like doing that.
01:49:05I'm like, okay, you've just passed beyond the realm of comprehension.
01:49:08So, I'm just going to smile.
01:49:09And I don't try to understand.
01:49:12It's not, I feel that understanding will cost me my chest hair.
01:49:16Although it could bring my hair back on my head.
01:49:18Who knows?
01:49:21Yeah.
01:49:23I think we had somebody else who wanted to chat.
01:49:24I'm not sure, yes or no.
01:49:26But yeah, I think have that conversation with your brother.
01:49:30I think it could be really, really helpful.
01:49:33And don't get into self-attack.
01:49:35I mean, you were 10 years old for heaven's sakes.
01:49:37You're still mostly just a shadow cast by your parents' choices and have very little
01:49:41free will of your own.
01:49:43Yeah.
01:49:44And it's interesting with that, with the go behind the desire thing, because that's
01:49:49another thing about the childhood.
01:49:50It's like there was no desire.
01:49:52We were not allowed to have desires as children.
01:49:55Like I didn't ask.
01:49:56I remember consciously not asking for things because I knew I wouldn't.
01:50:00So there's no point.
01:50:01Yeah.
01:50:03I still like it's funny.
01:50:04I don't need a computer.
01:50:05But if I get an email with computers on sale, I'd be like, oh, I can have a look.
01:50:11I mean, right.
01:50:11I mean, of course, I won't order anything, but I don't need one.
01:50:13I mean, I'm currently chatting away with this in mind, this little tablet is like, I don't
01:50:19know, six or seven years old, does everything I need it to.
01:50:21So now, of course, I'm at the time was like, yeah, it's a cool new toy, but I've got to
01:50:25spend some time setting it up.
01:50:26But that's 57.
01:50:28There's no longer an infinity of time ahead, right?
01:50:30So.
01:50:31All right.
01:50:32Well, thanks for the call.
01:50:33I appreciate that.
01:50:33And is there anything else you wanted to mention?
01:50:35Sorry, I feel like I keep interrupting you at the end.
01:50:37I would just say, is it the hatred of you to mention FPV drones since you have this
01:50:43weakness for gadgets that are cool?
01:50:45FPV drones?
01:50:47First person view.
01:50:48First person view.
01:50:50Yeah.
01:50:50What is that?
01:50:51Is that VR?
01:50:52What do you mean?
01:50:54No, you just stick goggles on your face and you can fly a drone around.
01:50:57It's really awesome.
01:50:58That is cool.
01:50:59I've actually, I've thought of, you know, I like doing these wood walks from time to
01:51:02time if the weather's good and the bugs aren't too bad.
01:51:05And I know you get these drones that follow you around, but I don't think they're silent.
01:51:10And I think they're also only like 15 minutes.
01:51:12So it's not going to be enough, but I thought it'd be kind of cool.
01:51:14Oh, just looking out the back here, this giant crow.
01:51:17But yeah, I thought it would be kind of cool to get a drone to follow me around while I'm
01:51:20doing a show.
01:51:21But they don't, I think they still make noise and they're not, they don't last long enough.
01:51:25So I think that's an issue.
01:51:27You can get silent ones or pretty near silent ones.
01:51:30And if you go up high enough, you won't hear it.
01:51:33It sounds like bees.
01:51:34But the, um, the time is still right.
01:51:37The battery.
01:51:39Yep.
01:51:40They won't last an hour.
01:51:41That's for sure.
01:51:43All right.
01:51:44Well, thanks, man.
01:51:44I appreciate that crack dealer offer.
01:51:47And, uh, all right.
01:51:49Thank you, man.
01:51:50All right.
01:51:50So anybody else who wanted to, I know somebody was asking if there's a queue and now's the
01:51:54time.
01:51:55If you want to unmute, I'm happy to spend another half hour.
01:51:59Hello?
01:52:00Yes, sir.
01:52:00Go ahead.
01:52:01Safiya.
01:52:02So could you share any gritty stories of you working hard during your entrepreneurial days?
01:52:11I certainly can.
01:52:12Yeah.
01:52:12Yeah, for sure.
01:52:13I'm just seeking some fantastic stories for some personal motivation because I'm currently
01:52:18building a startup.
01:52:21Yes, yes, yes.
01:52:22Um, well, I mean, I remember once we had a, it's funny, you know, I still don't even want
01:52:30to mention the corporate names, although it's been like 30 years and nobody cares, but I still
01:52:34keep it sort of private, but it's a brand everybody would completely recognize.
01:52:37And we were building a system for them and the system had to be ready.
01:52:45And there was still last minute changes coming in.
01:52:47And it was really, it was really a wild and tough time.
01:52:52Now, one of the things that I did as the chief technical officer, and obviously then in the
01:52:57sense de facto head of R and D was I built software that could change software because
01:53:04I built a database that could change itself.
01:53:07I built every piece of data needed a report.
01:53:11And so I built a software that would build the reports automatically and build the query
01:53:18and sorting forms automatically.
01:53:20I built software that allowed you to build your own reports.
01:53:23And this was all pretty wild back in the day.
01:53:25Like this is back 30, 35 years ago.
01:53:27This was all very advanced and very challenging stuff.
01:53:31And I remember after two nights, I stayed up for two nights.
01:53:36This was a massive system that we were delivering.
01:53:39And I really, really wanted it to work well.
01:53:43And I remember it was like, I don't know, five in the morning, the second night, like
01:53:49if we'd been up the first night, continued working the day, it was up the second night.
01:53:53And I remember I had to hit the enter key a bunch of times to get something to work.
01:53:59And I remember half passing out, waking up, hitting the enter key, half passing out, waking
01:54:03up, hitting the enter key.
01:54:05And then, yeah, so then we delivered at noon.
01:54:08I went home and the system worked and it was great.
01:54:11And I remember the woman I was living with at the time was like, well, I haven't seen
01:54:14you in two days.
01:54:15You know, let's go out for lunch.
01:54:17And I was like, oh, who do I have to blow to catch a nap here?
01:54:21And so, but you know, I was a responsible young man.
01:54:24So we went out for lunch and then I crashed.
01:54:26And I think I slept for like 17 hours or something crazy like that.
01:54:30And yeah, that was the way.
01:54:31I also remember for some mysterious reason, missing a flight.
01:54:35I missed the flight and we would try and do these tours, these hops, right?
01:54:40So you'd try and get a bunch of sales presentations in a relatively close area.
01:54:44And then you'd go and do three or four at a time.
01:54:45So you didn't have to keep crossing the border, flying up and down all the time.
01:54:49So I was sitting there with a salesman who looked vaguely like Michael Douglas.
01:54:54You know, one of the kind of guys, you know, a little gun cock and Paul Newman style.
01:54:59And we were both sitting there reading at the gate.
01:55:02And for some reason, we completely missed the flight.
01:55:05I don't know if the gate had moved or we just missed something that was being read,
01:55:08but we're both doing a little bit of work and we missed the flight.
01:55:10And this was at about 10 p.m.
01:55:14And we had a presentation at eight o'clock the next morning.
01:55:19And we did the calculation and we figured if we rented a car and we really hoofed it,
01:55:26we could get to the presentation by eight the next morning.
01:55:31But it meant driving all night.
01:55:32Now, again, I don't think it was our fault in particular that we missed the flight,
01:55:35because there was a lineup of people at the car rental place who would also miss the flight.
01:55:40So, but we managed to finally get a car.
01:55:43We got the last car and there were a bunch of people behind us who desperately needed to get
01:55:47to this town that the plane was flying to, which was about an eight, eight hour, nine hour drive.
01:55:53And they were, you know, they sort of were desperate to get to this town.
01:55:58So, there was like, I don't know, four people or whatever.
01:56:01So, I did a lot of the driving and my, the salesman was sort of getting his deck ready
01:56:08for the presentation, which he was going to do on the flight.
01:56:11And we had four people jammed in the back.
01:56:13And we didn't charge them or anything because it was a business expense or whatever, but we
01:56:16all drove.
01:56:17And I remember we got there a little bit early.
01:56:19And we ended up checking into a motel because I said, listen, I'm going to need to crash after
01:56:23that. I'm exhausted, right?
01:56:25You know, driving all night is not, not particularly fun.
01:56:27And it was kind of foggy in patches.
01:56:29So, you know, you hunched over and straining, you know, hour after hour, it was no fun.
01:56:33So, I remember trying to catch a nap, you know, from like, I don't know,
01:56:36seven to seven thirty before we ended up having to go.
01:56:39And I remember the motel was so crappy that the pool was green and empty, you know, like
01:56:43this stagnant pond water at the bottom.
01:56:46And so, I ended up trying to crash for like half an hour.
01:56:49And then I went, do you get the adrenaline?
01:56:51I did the presentation just fine.
01:56:52And then we crashed afterwards.
01:56:53So, yeah, it can be a brutal amount of work.
01:56:56I remember flying to China.
01:56:57I was supposed to be met by representatives from a big environmental company out there.
01:57:02They couldn't make it.
01:57:03And I ended up just landing in China with no idea where to go, what to do.
01:57:06And I remember checking into a hotel and I'd just been sitting for like the 20 hour flight
01:57:10or whatever.
01:57:11So, I went walking and I walked up to Tiananmen Square and I just remember it being so unbelievably
01:57:16cold.
01:57:16I didn't really think of China as being that cold.
01:57:19And I remember having to go into hotels along the way just to warm up because I thought
01:57:23it was just awful, but I wanted to see it.
01:57:25So, I did all that kind of stuff.
01:57:27So, yeah, the work can be brutal and it can be, but for me, it's like, it's worth it.
01:57:36I don't look back upon that time with, oh, that was terrible or, you know, I can't believe
01:57:40I worked that hard and all of that.
01:57:42And some of the work was annoying because the salespeople would promise, you know, like
01:57:47we sold to one company and they said, well, we need a record of every transaction in the
01:57:52database with a comment.
01:57:55You know, if somebody changes this environmental data, we need to know why.
01:57:58And I had to design a whole system that backed everything up with comments.
01:58:02I couldn't just back up the whole database because you needed the comment that joined
01:58:05all these disparate tables through queries together.
01:58:08So, I ended up writing a script that took all the queries that underlined the data entry
01:58:12forms, turned them into make table statements in Oracle, and then in the before update event
01:58:18of the form, I would have to have a comment and then I would take all the form data and
01:58:22jam it into the new make table.
01:58:24It was all wild stuff and it had to be really creative to make all of this stuff work.
01:58:28I remember the salespeople, they said, well, we have an existing Java system and we want
01:58:33to be able to reproduce that.
01:58:34Oh, yes, we can absolutely.
01:58:36And you know, salespeople, they didn't know what they were talking about.
01:58:38And so, what we had to do was in the before update on the web form, there were a bunch
01:58:44of Java DLLs, dynamic linked libraries, or the sort of things that you call and get a
01:58:49response from.
01:58:50And so, we would have to run through a whole bunch of DLLs and say, well, we're going to
01:58:57call this DLL to see if the data needs to be shared with the Java system.
01:59:01And there were so many of these scattered throughout all of the places that we basically,
01:59:07and some of them were needed and some of them weren't.
01:59:10So, we'd put them all in a particular folder and we would just try and call the Java DLLs.
01:59:16And if they weren't there, it would throw back an error and we'd just save the form.
01:59:20Right?
01:59:20Literally, it was like, that was trash programming.
01:59:23To be frank, you should not have error handling as part of your business methodology.
01:59:28But that's all I could think of to come up to make it happen.
01:59:31And it did end up working.
01:59:33It did end up working, but it was inelegant.
01:59:36And I was happy to never share the secrets of that with the programmers on the other
01:59:44side.
01:59:44I also remember flying out to Houston to work with a company down there and I had one day
01:59:52and I needed to get my notebook onto their network.
01:59:58And I got there at 8.30 in the morning and exchanged pleasantries.
02:00:03And I was sitting in the CTO's office and all these people were trying to get my laptop
02:00:10onto the network.
02:00:11And they kept coming in and out.
02:00:12Hours went by.
02:00:13The chief technical officer was on his phone.
02:00:15I don't even know if I should still be in his office.
02:00:17And he's like, you got to get this guy on the network.
02:00:21And we're working on a bus.
02:00:23I think it was around four o'clock.
02:00:26My flight was at 6.30 or whatever and four o'clock.
02:00:29So I was supposed to be a whole day installation that I had to get done in about an hour.
02:00:33And it was really quite exciting.
02:00:37I also threw this in my novel, The God of Atheists.
02:00:39I also remember I had to reformat my computer before a presentation because something had
02:00:46messed up.
02:00:48So I reformatted and reinstalled Windows.
02:00:51And then just before I went into the presentation, I realized that I hadn't installed any printer
02:00:57drivers.
02:00:57So none of the print previews, none of the previews of the reports worked because no
02:01:01printer installed.
02:01:02And so I had to do that.
02:01:03And you're literally walking into the meeting, inserting discs and CDs back in the day and
02:01:10making sure there are printer drivers.
02:01:12And I was just mad.
02:01:14It's really quite mad.
02:01:15But I look back on it as an exciting challenge like surfing or skydiving where you're hoping
02:01:21to grab three pigeons to survive.
02:01:23And it really was quite a blast in a lot of ways.
02:01:27And I loved solving the problems.
02:01:29For me, I designed a whole status bar where it would predict how long it would take to
02:01:34do things, like when you copy and paste things in Windows, it says three minutes remaining
02:01:38and so on.
02:01:39And when I could make that status bar go faster, it was like the most glorious thing in the
02:01:46world.
02:01:48Our system was user restricted, but not data restricted.
02:01:52So we had a customer who said, well, I only want the guys in the northeast to see the
02:01:57northeast data.
02:01:58I don't want the guys in the southwest to see the southwest data.
02:02:01So we had user level permissions for everything.
02:02:05So you could set up, well, this guy can see this report, but not this query or something.
02:02:10So they wanted data specific.
02:02:12And so trying to figure out how to make that work, because getting data specific restrictions
02:02:17on for users is really tricky, because there's so many different ways that you can get at
02:02:22the data.
02:02:23And you have to make sure that it's at the very most underlying query that you filter
02:02:29the data, because otherwise they can run the report.
02:02:32But what if they remove all the filters from their end?
02:02:35Does that give them all?
02:02:35Like we had to just make sure that it was all nailed down.
02:02:38So we had to push the code that restricted the data by user as close to the database
02:02:44as humanly possible.
02:02:45And figuring out how to make that work and make that bulletproof was really exciting.
02:02:50I love puzzling that kind of stuff out.
02:02:52I get very, very absorbed into those puzzles and challenges and how is this going to work?
02:02:57And is there any way to break through it and all this kind of stuff?
02:03:00And so I found it very absorbing.
02:03:03Time flew.
02:03:03My brain worked like 10,000 hamsters on cocaine.
02:03:07And most times, I mean, there were occasionally times I just strike out, but I remember one
02:03:13of our early sales, the customer said, well, I wasn't there for this meeting because I
02:03:23was only there to show the tech stuff to the tech people.
02:03:25And so and you know, when you're not invited to a sales meeting as the tech guy, you're
02:03:29about to get hosed.
02:03:30It's just there's a reason why they won't.
02:03:32Because normally they'll bring you because, you know, just in case there's some tech
02:03:35question that comes up that they can't answer.
02:03:36And when you're the tech guy and you're not invited to a meeting, it's because they're
02:03:42going to do something unholy with your weekends over the summer.
02:03:45And so, you know, here's what the customer wants.
02:03:49And it was, you know, we had a whole specification process.
02:03:53And I actually, the specification process ended up being entered into a spreadsheet.
02:03:58And then the spreadsheet, I would feed it into the database and the database would make
02:04:02all the changes that were data related on the spreadsheet.
02:04:07It would make them automatically throughout all the tables, queries, forms, reports, you
02:04:12name it, even on the web interface.
02:04:14Eventually, it was very cool stuff, very, very sophisticated and advanced stuff, especially
02:04:18for sort of back in the day.
02:04:20So I remember then they came back from this meeting and I said, oh, how was the meeting?
02:04:25Good, good.
02:04:26He just wants one little thing.
02:04:27He said, you know, the database just needs to produce this.
02:04:30And they gave me this fairly thick binder of all the reports that he needed.
02:04:37And I said, well, we don't, like, we don't do those reports.
02:04:43And he's like, yeah, but you know, you've designed this whole database to change itself.
02:04:45And, you know, I'm sure it's not going to be a big deal.
02:04:48It's like, you're sure, you don't, like, you have no real understanding of the technology,
02:04:52but you're just sure it's not that, that big a deal.
02:04:54And if you've ever seen the Dungeons and Dragons movie that came out relatively recently,
02:04:59there's a funny bit where they have a particular problem.
02:05:04They turn to the wizard and they say, well, just use your magic.
02:05:07And he's like, magic is very specific and particular.
02:05:09It's not just some wand that you wave to solve every problem.
02:05:12And I found that particularly telling because that was kind of what it was like being a
02:05:16technology guy, that they'd say, well, you know, just, you know, the database changes
02:05:20itself and the reports change themselves.
02:05:22So just, and it's like, yes, but not in this format.
02:05:24I don't even know if we have this data.
02:05:26Like, so that was my challenge with a thick binder of reports.
02:05:30And now you can say no, but how are you going to make payroll?
02:05:35Right.
02:05:35If you, I mean, this was early on when we were just starting out.
02:05:38So you say yes, and then you find a way to make it work.
02:05:41And what bothered me though, was that the salespeople would get their bonuses for making
02:05:44the sale that they'd go up to their cottages for the weekend.
02:05:46And I'd be there with some other guys that I worked with working all weekend and we didn't
02:05:51get bonuses.
02:05:52So it's kind of asymmetrical that way that all the people with high charisma and low
02:05:57wisdom end up making all the bank and all the people with less charisma and high intelligence
02:06:06and wisdom, they end up working all the weekends for no extra pay.
02:06:10So they basically were the man of Lords and we were the serfs, but it was, yeah, it was
02:06:15very exciting.
02:06:15I mean, it's the same all over in tech.
02:06:17It's not, it wasn't anything particular to me.
02:06:20It's just easier to lie to the client and then hand the job requirements over to somewhat
02:06:26high strung, high conscientious people whose paycheck depends upon them working feverishly
02:06:31for weeks.
02:06:32And then it sort of gets done.
02:06:33It's like that line in about plays in Shakespeare in Love.
02:06:37Oh, it's all going to come together.
02:06:39Even the play is a complete disaster.
02:06:41How?
02:06:41Nobody knows, but it does.
02:06:43It's the same thing with a lot of tech.
02:06:44So yeah, you dig into it, love the work, love the challenge.
02:06:49And know that every challenge you solve is probably a challenge that other people won't
02:06:54solve.
02:06:56You know, the software company that I co-founded is still running 35 years later.
02:07:01That's not common.
02:07:04And we got a very good reputation and we worked hard and everything that you solve at two
02:07:11in the morning is one step closer to success because other people aren't staying till two
02:07:16in the morning or aren't just saying, I will solve this.
02:07:19So, you know, when it came to sit down and write UPB or come up with UPB, I had so much
02:07:25experience in the software world and in the entrepreneurial world of saying to myself,
02:07:31there's no way this can be done, but I'm going to figure it out anyway.
02:07:34And that's really entrepreneurship is like, there's no way this can be done, but I've
02:07:37got to figure it out anyway.
02:07:39And then that stimulates your creative juices and you usually would get some kind of answer.
02:07:44And so when I sat down with UPB and said, okay, there's no way this can be done, but
02:07:47I'm going to figure it out anyway, I'm going to get secular ethics.
02:07:50I'm going to get a rational proof of secular ethics, no guards, no government.
02:07:53And just having had, you know, so much experience, a decade and a half or whatever of experience
02:08:01of a decade and a half, no, about a decade of experience, just this is not possible,
02:08:06but I'm going to figure it out anyway, just gives you that kind of self-confidence and
02:08:11muscle and sinew that you just can't be stopped.
02:08:14I always view like, okay, there's a, you know, the old thing that what happens when
02:08:17an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?
02:08:21Well, all of the immovable objects are things that can't be done, but I am the unstoppable
02:08:26force.
02:08:27And I figured that out in the business world and then translated it to philosophy problems
02:08:33because philosophy is just another kind of logical, a series of logical steps and arguments,
02:08:38because that's all software is, is a series of logical steps and arguments to compel the
02:08:41computer to do what you need it to do in a way that makes sense to the computer.
02:08:45So yeah, translating deep tech to user interface is part of why the deep tech of philosophy,
02:08:53I have a user interface of this show to make it more accessible to people.
02:08:56So a lot of what happened in the entrepreneurial world helped and was the foundation for what
02:09:01I do in the world of philosophy.
02:09:03So anyway, I could sort of go on all day, but I hope that makes some kind of sense,
02:09:08but yeah, it's all great.
02:09:09Chew on the topics, love the challenge, love the challenges, love the impossibility because
02:09:14what seems impossible to you that can be achieved is going to seem impossible to someone else
02:09:20and they won't even try.
02:09:21And then, and then you win and whatever ends with, and then you win is, is a good tale.
02:09:27So I hope that makes some sense.
02:09:29That was beautiful.
02:09:30Thank you, Steph.
02:09:31Uh, can I ask one follow-up question?
02:09:35How do you boost your focus stamina bar?
02:09:38I feel that, um, I tend to burn out fairly quickly and I need to like take a little micro
02:09:45vacation or staycation and I can get back on the horse, but it kind of slows me down.
02:09:49That's how I see it.
02:09:49Cause effectively I'm working almost like three jobs into one.
02:09:52I mean, that's just part of the nature of the work about startup.
02:09:58What do you mean by burnout?
02:10:02You begin to dread and resent the work.
02:10:07And how does that manifest for you?
02:10:16Like it takes me, suppose I'm trying to, um, like you, you brought up a lot of automation,
02:10:22like suppose I'm trying to program a web crawler or a dataset, dataset health check or program
02:10:28a background worker, like on a given work week where I'm not burnt out, I can maybe
02:10:33solve it like, you know, in two to four hours.
02:10:36But when I'm burnt out, it takes me like a series of days.
02:10:41And it manifests like you just, you can't concentrate.
02:10:44You don't feel like you have any intellectual juice or creativity.
02:10:47Yeah, exactly.
02:10:48Lacking in intellectual juice.
02:10:49Yes.
02:10:49Yes.
02:10:50Are you working alone?
02:10:52200 people.
02:10:54And do they fuel you?
02:10:57Absolutely.
02:10:57Absolutely.
02:10:58But we're all, uh, we're all located, uh, across the globe.
02:11:01Uh, a scout.
02:11:03Oh yeah.
02:11:03Yeah.
02:11:03I was around before that remote work room, that remote.
02:11:06Well, I mean, we did open up a couple of offices in various locations.
02:11:10We opened up one in Vancouver and one in the States.
02:11:13But, um, and tell me the kind of scenario that leads to this burnout.
02:11:19How long are you working?
02:11:20How many hours?
02:11:2410 to 12 hours a day, six days a week.
02:11:27What burns me out is I try to upskill on the side.
02:11:29Like I'm trying to get up to speed on this deep learning, um, LLM stuff.
02:11:34Yeah.
02:11:35And I think it's just a high flux of information passing through my brain.
02:11:40And it's just too much for me to handle.
02:11:42And how long have you been working at this pace?
02:11:45I know it's not always the same and it's not consistent, but how long have you been working
02:11:48at this pace?
02:11:5010 months since the inception of this idea.
02:11:52Okay.
02:11:54And how old are you?
02:11:5632.
02:11:57All right.
02:11:58And what's your personal life like?
02:12:00Do you, do you get recharged from girlfriend, wife?
02:12:03Friends, family?
02:12:05Yep.
02:12:05Married and have a healthy set of, uh, uh, male friends and they recharge me.
02:12:11But, um, given that this is a startup, uh, it's personally funded.
02:12:14I don't have the financial means to go out and splurge every weekend or so.
02:12:20Um, why is it self-funded?
02:12:22Do you, do you not have any access to capital?
02:12:25I, I, I'm in self-funded by the three of us.
02:12:28Um, one of our co-founders is serving as an angel investor as well.
02:12:33It's his, his dime.
02:12:35Okay.
02:12:35And do you not have enough money?
02:12:38Underfunding is the biggest risk for almost all startups.
02:12:42Yeah.
02:12:44I mean, it's adequate to sustain a minimalistic lifestyle, but not enough for me to, you know,
02:12:49go on, uh, exquisite, uh, weekend trips.
02:12:53No, no, I'm not talking about your vacations.
02:12:55I'm talking about why are you doing the work of at least two people?
02:12:59You said three people, right?
02:13:00So if you're doing the work of three people, you can do that for a little while, but it's
02:13:03not a sustainable business model, right?
02:13:07Yeah.
02:13:07Technically speaking, I, I guess I'm just wearing, I said, I'm wearing three hats because
02:13:13effectively, you know, I'm doing front end data engineering and, uh, data science.
02:13:20Yeah.
02:13:20That's not answering the question.
02:13:21Sorry.
02:13:22So are you, are you, because we can't afford to hire people to, to, to be.
02:13:25Well, so if you can't afford to hire people, why is it?
02:13:29Because you're underfunded.
02:13:31Pretty much.
02:13:32Um, we're hoping to get a contract with, with the prospective client and then used to use
02:13:37that as a capital to, uh, when that, when might that happen?
02:13:42End of year or start next year.
02:13:45Oh, so you've got a long way to go.
02:13:47Yeah.
02:13:48Yeah.
02:13:48But we're at least seven, seven plus more months of this, right?
02:13:52Yeah.
02:13:52Pretty much.
02:13:54Okay.
02:13:55Um, what is the work schedule of the people?
02:13:58You said there's other two people, two other people.
02:14:00What's their work schedule like?
02:14:02Uh, the other person is, uh, he's effectively our COO slash, uh, uh, CFO.
02:14:09Hey, he's non-technical.
02:14:10So he doesn't contribute to the code base.
02:14:12Um, the, uh, other guys, uh, ask for that.
02:14:15Sorry.
02:14:16I didn't ask for that.
02:14:17What's their workload?
02:14:18Is it similar to yours?
02:14:20They, they, they have, uh, they have full-time jobs.
02:14:22Um, they put in about 20 to 40 hours a week.
02:14:26Me, I put in at least 50 to 60 per week because I don't have a full-time job.
02:14:31This is my...
02:14:31Sorry.
02:14:32Weren't you talking 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week?
02:14:36Yes.
02:14:37So isn't that 60 to 72?
02:14:39Do I have that wrong?
02:14:41Ideal.
02:14:41Yes.
02:14:42I'm just doing ad hoc math.
02:14:44No, that's fine.
02:14:45So the other guys are only working part-time?
02:14:48Uh, exactly.
02:14:48Yes.
02:14:49And does your equity stake represent, like reflect the fact that you're putting in two
02:14:54to three times the work?
02:14:55Absolutely.
02:14:56Yes.
02:14:56And that's why I get a generous stipend.
02:15:00Uh, what do you mean by a stipend?
02:15:02Uh, pretty much funds to keep me alive where I don't need a full-time job to live.
02:15:07Yes, yes, yes, yes.
02:15:08Okay.
02:15:09So you have more equity in the company because you're working more, right?
02:15:13Exactly.
02:15:13Exactly.
02:15:14Okay.
02:15:14So, uh, what is, are there any friends that you'd like to work with?
02:15:20Ah, that's a difficult, uh, okay.
02:15:22I'll, I'll just give you straightforward answers.
02:15:24Uh, no.
02:15:25Okay.
02:15:26Is there anyone who might be a friend of a friend or you've ever met that you think
02:15:29might be fun to work with, even if they're not a close friend of yours?
02:15:33As of now, no.
02:15:35Okay.
02:15:36So if you put the call out, or even if you put a job offer out, then there's a couple
02:15:41of things you can do.
02:15:42Uh, first of all, you can go to the angel investor and say, this is not sustainable.
02:15:47Like I can't do this.
02:15:49Like it, it, it, my brain can't work that hard.
02:15:51Like, you know, you, as an athlete, you can't train 10 hours a day.
02:15:53You just pull muscles, right?
02:15:55So it's, uh, it's not good.
02:15:57And you know, for men saying I can't handle it or it's too much, it's not, it goes against
02:16:01our grain, but it's important to be honest.
02:16:03Right.
02:16:03So that's one thing you can do is go and get more money and then hire someone.
02:16:06Now I know that hiring someone, they've got to get up to speed and it's more work, but
02:16:10you know, it helps in the long run, or even if there's more testing tasks or repetitive
02:16:14tasks that you can outsource, that would be one thing.
02:16:16Another thing is a lot of, uh, what you're going to do in the software world is a repetitive
02:16:23and again, the QAQC, quality assurance, quality control.
02:16:26Maybe you could outsource that.
02:16:27You can get that overseas quite cheap.
02:16:29Another thing you could do, of course, is you can hack off some part of your equity
02:16:33and offer it to someone else to come and work for the company.
02:16:37Non-negotiable for me.
02:16:38I want to retain everything.
02:16:39That's why I want to work hard.
02:16:40And that's why I'm asking you for heuristics.
02:16:42Well, no, but that's not wise because if you burn out, I mean, burnout is not just like,
02:16:50I'm not as productive.
02:16:51Burnout can be serious errors.
02:16:54Burnout can be, um, I wiped the database.
02:16:57Burnout can be, I forgot to check in the source, like the updated code.
02:17:01Like burnout can be bad, right?
02:17:04And you can end up, it can end up costing you quite a lot.
02:17:06You know, I accidentally deleted the backups in the hard drive fail.
02:17:10Like whatever, I could be, burnout is the kind of mistakes.
02:17:13It's more than just like, well, I'm not as productive, but it can be very counterproductive.
02:17:17It can undo sometimes weeks or even months of work.
02:17:21That's good advice.
02:17:22So wanting to hold onto everything is great, but not if it's sinking, right?
02:17:28So, uh, learning how to share risks and rewards.
02:17:33Sorry?
02:17:34In my defense, like the modern landscape, it's all about like purchasing like a
02:17:38SAS licenses and getting like modern tooling.
02:17:41Like that's how everything's able to be like done with less people.
02:17:44Mm-hmm.
02:17:46But, uh, yeah, like my initial grievance was, um, yeah, wearing too many hats and it's
02:17:52really, uh, hindering my, my peak performance.
02:17:55Yeah.
02:17:55And there's nothing wrong with working extra at the beginning, but I can't tell you the
02:18:00number of businesses that I've looked at or evaluated where it's, it's, it's just crazy.
02:18:08Excess work that's keeping it afloat.
02:18:09That's not a sustainable business.
02:18:11A business has to be sustainable with a reasonable level of effort.
02:18:14If, if you say, well, my business is sustainable, but I have to work 70 hours a week.
02:18:18Your business is not sustainable.
02:18:20And I'm not saying that to you at the moment, cause you're in the startup phase and all
02:18:23of that.
02:18:23Right?
02:18:23So I get all of that, but learning how to delegate and share both risks and rewards
02:18:29and share the work is, is important.
02:18:31And there's obviously there's no magic solution to burnout.
02:18:34If you've been doing 10 months of 60 to 70 hours, like yesterday, I had one of these
02:18:40days, right?
02:18:41I, um, uh, I did a show in the morning and then I did a paid call in and then I did some
02:18:48other things in the afternoon.
02:18:49Then I did another show and then I went bowling with my daughter and some friends and I came
02:18:54back and I had forgotten that I had scheduled a, uh, a call at midnight because it was a
02:18:59couple on the other side of the world.
02:19:01And I was like, I was tired.
02:19:03Right.
02:19:03And, but you know, we, I wasn't going to reschedule.
02:19:05So it was one of those days where I was just like, yeah, okay, this, this day, when this
02:19:09day ends and I go to bed, it would not be the worst thing in the world.
02:19:12And you know, obviously I'm older than you, but if I had to do that on a consistent basis,
02:19:15uh, it would be tough to do good work.
02:19:17It would be tough to do quality work.
02:19:20So there is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to, to effort.
02:19:23And I was willing to work like I did.
02:19:27And then I would take two weeks off and go lie on a beach and read philosophy because
02:19:31that would, and play beach volleyball or whatever like that would recharge me.
02:19:33Right.
02:19:34So you need that recharge time and it's not responsible to your investors, to your product
02:19:40and to your business to, to burn out and saying, well, I can't possibly give up any equity.
02:19:48Well, if the business ends up not working out because you burn out, then your equity
02:19:52is not worth much of anything.
02:19:53So you might as well, you don't give away equity to, to end up with less.
02:19:57You give away equity to end up with more.
02:19:58Right.
02:19:59Exactly.
02:20:01So, uh, it just be, there's no magical solution to it.
02:20:04Um, you do need to take some breaks is, is why, why is there such a break net schedule?
02:20:12Uh, we just want to launch, um, launch and secure a contract and use that revenue to
02:20:16do our initial hiring.
02:20:18Okay.
02:20:18So when you first had a business plan and I hope you had some kind of business plan,
02:20:22what's the business plan?
02:20:24Okay.
02:20:24You're going to work 60 to 70 hours a week because we have this deadline because.
02:20:29So, uh, I mean, it's a little, uh, crumbs of background information.
02:20:33Uh, I think it takes me longer too, cause I'm not exactly like a technological veteran
02:20:38because a lot of it's upskilling as I go.
02:20:40So I'm like learning as I go.
02:20:47That's why it takes me longer.
02:20:48And you know, sorry, that's, but that's sorry.
02:20:50So is it that your work is slower than you were anticipating in the business plan?
02:20:55Right.
02:20:56Exactly.
02:20:56Yes.
02:20:56Yes.
02:20:57Okay.
02:20:59So if your work is slower, don't you need to move the deadline?
02:21:05Like, let's say it takes you another two months to finish.
02:21:07That's going to have you relax a little bit on the work, right?
02:21:11Exactly.
02:21:12Yeah.
02:21:12Um, yeah, that would be wise, but.
02:21:15Right.
02:21:15So, so sometimes the problem is not in the day, but in the year, it's not where you are.
02:21:20It's at the end.
02:21:20Right.
02:21:21So if you have an artificial deadline say, well, we've got to be finished by the end
02:21:26of the year.
02:21:26It's like, well, why?
02:21:29I think I'm.
02:21:30Why is that an absolute?
02:21:31It's not an absolute, right?
02:21:32It's a negotiated thing.
02:21:34It's self-inflicted because I have this fear that other, other startups are kind of building
02:21:41something similar that we are and they might launch it before us.
02:21:45Um, and this is, this ties in with the LLM revolution.
02:21:49I'm sorry.
02:21:50Why is it bad if other software companies are developing the same product that might
02:21:53launch it before you?
02:21:54That's a good thing.
02:21:56Sorry, maybe I'm missing something.
02:21:58Uh, well, I guess I fear they'll make it better.
02:22:02Well, I don't know about that, but I loved it when other people moved into my space because
02:22:07then they did free marketing for me.
02:22:10So let's say there's some company that's building something similar to what you're
02:22:13building.
02:22:13Well, if they're first to market, they have to advertise like crazy to make people aware
02:22:17that there's even such a thing as what they produced, right?
02:22:21That's a good point.
02:22:22So they're going to spend huge amounts of money just raising awareness of the product
02:22:26in the marketplace.
02:22:27And now if you're second to market, that's fantastic because it means that people are
02:22:32already aware of what you do because they've already, other people have spent the money
02:22:36like other people have broken the ice and you just get to sail up without having to
02:22:39have the icebreaker.
02:22:40So other people, so when I was in the environmental software field, both IBM and Microsoft moved
02:22:45into the space and I was like, fantastic.
02:22:48My gosh.
02:22:49Because now they're advertising all of this stuff and then people say, oh, okay, so we
02:22:53want to, they don't just say, IBM doesn't say we have this and then people just buy
02:22:57it, right?
02:22:58They do their research.
02:22:59So then when they did their research, you know, both Microsoft and IBM were spending
02:23:04massive amounts of money advertising for this product, which we already had.
02:23:09And IBM and Microsoft were new to the arena we'd already been around for like five years,
02:23:15which is like 35 years in software age, right?
02:23:20So, and we already had a proven track record.
02:23:22We already had satisfied clients.
02:23:23We already had testimonials and business plan cases and proof of value and ROI, all the
02:23:28kind of periphery stuff that you need for a market.
02:23:30So it was fantastic because then they said, oh, there's this solution.
02:23:34And people are like, wow, that's great.
02:23:36They do a search and we come up.
02:23:38So we didn't have to spend millions of dollars advertising because the other companies were
02:23:42doing it for us.
02:23:43So I'm not sure.
02:23:44And the other thing too, if I were you, if nobody else was working on it, that would
02:23:49not be a good thing, right?
02:23:52You want competitors because that means that other smart people have seen the business
02:23:57opportunity because most times smart people will see business opportunities.
02:24:00And if you're the only person in that space, that's usually not a very good thing because
02:24:04it means the space is very limited or other people have done the research and found that
02:24:07it's not big enough to sustain the entry.
02:24:11Excellent point, Steph.
02:24:13Yeah, don't be panicked by competition.
02:24:15It's great.
02:24:17Competition is really, really good for you.
02:24:18It makes you better.
02:24:19It makes you sharper.
02:24:20And you then get to share advertising costs with other people.
02:24:25So yeah, tons of times I would end up selling a system and say, oh, how did you find out
02:24:31about us?
02:24:31Oh, your competitors.
02:24:34Your competitors turned us on to the sphere and the field.
02:24:37And we did the research and we thought you guys were the best.
02:24:39And I'm like, thank you, competitors, right?
02:24:41I'm sure sometimes it worked the other way, not that we'd hear much about it.
02:24:44But no, it was great.
02:24:45And having competitors is fantastic because they inform the companies of your existence.
02:24:51And then you get to get in the meeting.
02:24:55I really needed that.
02:24:56Thank you so much, Steph.
02:24:57You are very, very welcome.
02:24:58But yeah, competitors is good.
02:25:00I mean, I wish I had more people who were real challenging to debate with because that
02:25:05would be more fun.
02:25:06Competition is very good.
02:25:09And you should welcome it.
02:25:11And it's fun.
02:25:12It's fun to put your best against other people's brilliance and see who comes out on top.
02:25:18If they come out on top, you can learn from them.
02:25:21And that makes your product better.
02:25:22If you come out on top, you win.
02:25:24And it's just, yeah, it's really great.
02:25:25You should really welcome and appreciate the fact that there are other people racing you
02:25:29to the finish line.
02:25:30I mean, it's been shown, of course, that runners run their very fastest when there's someone
02:25:34else who's at their speed or slightly better running with them.
02:25:37You're going to end up better because of all of that.
02:25:39So I wouldn't worry about it.
02:25:42Well said.
02:25:42Well said.
02:25:43Time for two more brief questions?
02:25:47I think let's just do one.
02:25:48So pick your time.
02:25:49OK, OK.
02:25:55So I've been a longtime follower.
02:25:58I would actually consider you as a textbook polymath because you have so many domains
02:26:04of expertise.
02:26:05Like, I just entered my 30s, I'm 32.
02:26:08But what kind of habits should I form to learn so many adjacent and unadjacent domains of
02:26:16knowledge and skill sets?
02:26:19I'm not sure what you mean.
02:26:23To simplify the question, how do you learn so many things?
02:26:25And how do you know so many things?
02:26:29Just a general curiosity.
02:26:31General curiosity.
02:26:33I've always enjoyed things and then wanted a step further, right?
02:26:36So for quite a while, I was really into—I remember listening to the band Spirogyra in
02:26:40college, and I just really went into jazz, I went into blues, and I even had some dips
02:26:47into country music, although it's never been a particular favorite of mine.
02:26:50But I just find stuff really interesting.
02:26:52And I love it when the pattern pieces come together.
02:26:54I love it when I read something and it's just like, OK, so that makes sense.
02:26:58And this is why the world is this way, or this is why the world is that way.
02:27:01And so I've just always been curious, and I'm just chasing that dopamine of things
02:27:06coming together.
02:27:07It's not a willed thing.
02:27:08It's not like, well, I now must set myself this course of self-study.
02:27:11I'm basically just like a hamster running around from various food pieces to food pieces
02:27:17looking for the dopamine of the click and connect.
02:27:21And so I just love following the rabbit holes and seeing what ties together and what gets
02:27:29explained, right?
02:27:30So I mean, I remember when I was big back in the day, and everywhere I went, every sort
02:27:35of conference I went to, I'd have like three or four rather sweaty guys come up and grab
02:27:39my lapels and say, you've got to look into Q, man.
02:27:41Q and on.
02:27:42You've got to look into Q.
02:27:43And so, you know, I'm not one to say no to what seems like wild theories, because Lord
02:27:48knows I've had some of my own.
02:27:50So yeah, I looked into it, and it did not appear to be valid and trust the plan.
02:27:58And, you know, this is going to happen, and this is going to happen.
02:28:00And, you know, what's happened since is not anything that was predicted.
02:28:04So I just was not, I didn't really accept it.
02:28:10And I'm sort of glad that I didn't really spend too much time looking into it, because
02:28:13it turned out to be, it probably will turn out to be some sort of psyop designed to
02:28:18paralyze people's intellectual energies into thinking someone else is taking care of the
02:28:22problems in society.
02:28:23So I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was generated by some alphabet agency or something.
02:28:28But there was a hunger for a belief that what looks really bad is actually really good,
02:28:34and you just have to trust the plan.
02:28:35And trust the plan is a passive statement, right?
02:28:37So yeah, so I'm just really curious about why the world is the way that it is.
02:28:43I'm also, for some reason, I appear to be relatively bulletproof at the horror of having
02:28:48been lied to.
02:28:49You know, because when you grow up, you're told all these lies.
02:28:52McCarthyism, and Nixon, and all the things that you're told about, particularly with
02:28:56the US history, that's just absolutely, completely the opposite of the truth.
02:29:00And it's all propaganda.
02:29:01I remain still somewhat surprised, but not too long or any shocked that there are just
02:29:08massive amounts of people out there who have absolutely zero conscience about lying.
02:29:13It doesn't bother them if it advances the cause.
02:29:18I mean, environmentalists have said this for years, that if we have to exaggerate to get
02:29:22what we want, that's no problem.
02:29:23No problem with lying.
02:29:24No problem with manufacturing data.
02:29:26No problem with just completely lying about people, like all the communists lying about
02:29:30McCarthy and so on.
02:29:32No problem with it.
02:29:33And the number of people who go along with those lies is really quite shocking and surprising,
02:29:38but that is sort of the way that it is.
02:29:40And a lot of people recoil from the big lie because it's really painful for them emotionally,
02:29:46and then they have the challenge of their relationships with all the people who lied
02:29:49to them or who accept those lies and so on.
02:29:51And COVID was another.
02:29:53Fauci was just testifying that, oh yeah, the six-foot thing just kind of came out of nowhere,
02:29:58and we never really did tests on kids and masks, and there really weren't any tests.
02:30:02It'd be hard to design those tests, right?
02:30:04And so, yeah, it's just a bunch of lies and nonsense.
02:30:08And a lot of people really recoil from those lies, and that limits what they could learn.
02:30:12And I'm like, oh, OK, so it's another lie.
02:30:15Add it to the pile of giant lies that are inflicted upon society.
02:30:20Society is an asylum of propaganda held together by threats of brute force, and that's
02:30:27a lot of what goes on in the world.
02:30:28And I think a lot of people look at that and they sort of recoil.
02:30:31I've always been like, oh, well, that's what it is.
02:30:34That's what it is, because I'm an empiricist, which means I try not to get too offended
02:30:37by things that are facts.
02:30:38But most people seem to be offended by that stuff, and I think that limits what they can
02:30:42explore.
02:30:42I'm not saying you, but...
02:30:43So just have no limits.
02:30:45And if you get real dopamine from things clicking and coming together and things making sense
02:30:49and having explanations and answers, I can never be closer to the people in my life than
02:30:57I am to the truth.
02:30:59I just can't be.
02:31:00So if I want to be close to the people in my life, I have to be close to the truth first,
02:31:03because I can't be close to people without knowing the truth.
02:31:08So I love being close to people.
02:31:10I love loving people and being loved by people.
02:31:13And if I reject anything to do with the truth, it places a distance and a gap between me
02:31:21and the people I love.
02:31:23And I won't sacrifice the people I love and my relationships with them in order to pursue
02:31:29a lie, because I know that's a devil's bargain, because you end up neither with the truth
02:31:35nor any people who are close to you.
02:31:39It's very sad.
02:31:39Like the guy, the 10-year-old, and his brother was 12 and the women on the submarine thing.
02:31:48So he ended up conforming to the mob, and he ended up neither with the respect of his
02:31:55brother nor the connection with the mob.
02:31:57You end up with nothing.
02:31:58The devil says, oh, we'll give you all this approval, and you won't get in trouble, and
02:32:02people won't be mad, and they'll love you, and you'll be happy, and you'll get a safe
02:32:06and secure societal connection and community.
02:32:09You just have to not tell the truth.
02:32:10And so you end up, okay, fine, I won't tell the truth.
02:32:12And then you end up with no community, no authenticity, no love, no happiness, no connection,
02:32:18no depth, no self-satisfaction, and you don't have the truth anyway.
02:32:22So you end up with less than nothing.
02:32:24And that's just always seemed like a really bad bargain to me.
02:32:26So I think a lot of people avoid the truth because they're bribed with pretend community,
02:32:30and they end up neither with connection with their community nor the truth.
02:32:34And then they get either blackmailed, or bitter, or angry, or very aggressive.
02:32:40So yeah, I would say just keep following the rabbit holes.
02:32:42And if you enjoy that click of understanding why things are the way they are, it's a beautiful
02:32:49feeling.
02:32:50And I've never really found much better than that click of understanding, because that's
02:32:55what brings me closer to people.
02:32:57And so you get the truth and love.
02:32:58And really, what could be better than that?
02:33:00All right.
02:33:01Well, thanks, everyone, for a great afternoon's chat.
02:33:03I really do appreciate it.
02:33:05And thank you, of course, for those listening later.
02:33:08This is a donor-only chat.
02:33:12And I really do appreciate you guys dropping by today.
02:33:14And your support, of course, if you're listening to this later, very, very important.
02:33:18Or even if you're a donor and want to throw me a couple of extra bucks, that's certainly,
02:33:22of course, more than welcome.
02:33:24But you can go to freedomain.com slash donate to help out the show.
02:33:27And I really, really would appreciate that enormously.
02:33:32And you can, of course, also go to freedomain.locals.com.
02:33:37It's a great community.
02:33:38You can go to subscribestar.com slash freedomain.
02:33:40You also get to another great community that way.
02:33:43And you can go to fdrural.com forward slash TikTok to check out our TikTok channel as
02:33:48well.
02:33:49And lots of love from up here.
02:33:50I hope you guys have a wonderful day.
02:33:51I will see you on Wednesday night, 7 p.m.
02:33:54And thanks for everybody's contribution today.
02:33:57I really do appreciate it.
02:33:58Bye.

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