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00:00News came through in Brussels this week. A new leader is poised to take over as NATO Secretary General.
00:05It's the former Dutch Prime Minister, Mark Rutte, who secured the backing of each member state.
00:09The only other credible competitor was Romania's president, Klaus Johannes. He's backed out.
00:14Now, Teflon Mark is his nickname in The Hague.
00:18One biographer said the 57-year-old cycling fanatic has a trademark.
00:23It's called Mivernin, which means bouncing, stretching along,
00:26working with whoever he needs to work with, to govern, to rule with.
00:31This was Mark Rutte talking to the press in the past 24 hours.
00:35It is, of course, an incredibly interesting position. It starts in three months.
00:39There is a fantastic secretary general at the moment.
00:42But let me not give the impression that I am going to do something different from Jens Stoltenberg.
00:47What we also know about Mark Rutte, he likes his routine.
00:50According to his biographer, he's always in the same cafe on a Saturday
00:55in the Netherlands, something that I think will quickly change with security personnel on advice,
01:00and also that he loves you, too.
01:02Let's go to Washington. Let's go to James G. Townsend, Jr.,
01:06a senior advisor at the Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security at the Transatlantic Initiative.
01:11Great to have you on the program.
01:13And let's first just give me your thoughts and what you know of Mark Rutte, the man.
01:20Well, I know that Mark Rutte, the man, he's a cool set of hands.
01:24He's very steady. He's also a very good politician.
01:28He's been in politics and senior levels for a long time.
01:31And at NATO, you've got to know politics.
01:34You've got to know how to pull the levers to get 32 nations to do what to do what you want them to do.
01:39It's a tough job. I think Mark Rutte is up to it.
01:44I've met Mark Rutte a few times. I've interviewed him a few times.
01:47He's always, they call, pilpoil, absolutely on time.
01:50He's very straight to the point.
01:53Unlike other leaders I've interviewed in the past, won't name any particularly,
01:57but he has got a sense of humor, probably going to help him in this job because,
02:02let's face it, sometimes in the darkness and dark times and intensity he's going to face right now,
02:07it's probably going to be a trait that's well needed.
02:11That's exactly right. And there's frustration, too, in getting the allies together.
02:17That's something that, not just a good politician,
02:20but someone with a good sense of humor needs to be able to do.
02:25Give me your reading of Jens Stoltenberg as an outgoing secretary general,
02:31in terms of an ability to gather people around him and whether,
02:37some people say he's not the most charismatic figure, whether charisma and personality matters in that job.
02:45Well, that's a very interesting point. I think charisma and personality can help.
02:50It helps in all of politics. Jens Stoltenberg, I think he is ranked number two
02:55in terms of how long he has been the secretary general.
02:59And he has faced some tough opponents, not just in terms of Putin and the Russian invasion of Ukraine twice,
03:07but also he had to face Donald Trump.
03:09That was another test of his ability to try to pull everyone together,
03:14including the United States, when it was headed by a very difficult personality who didn't like NATO.
03:20And, you know, Jens Stoltenberg won him over.
03:23And I think Mark Rutte, should we be faced with Trump in a second term,
03:28I think Mark Rutte will be able to bring him along as well.
03:31Stoltenberg is one of the great secretary generals at NATO, and we were lucky to have him during this time.
03:37When you say he's one of the great secretary generals,
03:39tell me what you think in particular stands out about him.
03:42You told me the ability to talk to Trump.
03:44But what was it that he had that perhaps others before him didn't, in your view?
03:50He had a way to ensure that nations that had policies as far apart as, say, Turkey on the one hand and Sweden on the other.
04:00You had Orban in Hungary. We talked about Trump.
04:04The alliance is full of not just allied nations, but personalities.
04:09And to maintain your cool and not alienate a head of state,
04:15to be able to herd all the cats in one direction while you have someone like Putin staring you down at the end of a gun barrel,
04:25that takes a lot of cool. He has that cool.
04:28And I think that is what, you know, charisma aside, I think cool hands is what we will be known for.
04:36I think you've touched upon something about Jens Stoltenberg that perhaps is easily missed within those who say,
04:41you know, he perhaps lacks the charisma of grabbing a moment or that sound bite that,
04:45you know, the likes of Trump and others can just grab and electrify and, you know, like them or loathe them.
04:52They coin a phrase that is remembered. But Jens Stoltenberg, his father,
04:56remembers the foreign minister for Norway.
04:58And he talks about in the past how he's pioneered as a child kitchen diplomacy,
05:02that he'd bring all of these foreign leaders around. He once sat for breakfast,
05:05he said, with Nelson Mandela in years gone by. And you think about character forming traits,
05:10you know, you show me the boy at seven, I'll show you the man that was already starting to form there.
05:14Now we see with Mark Rutter, you mentioned that ability to gather and engage with people.
05:20He also said to have a good relationship, not just with President Biden,
05:24but President Trump previously. And Juana Lungescu, who was the former press advisor to Stoltenberg,
05:31tweeted in the past few hours to say that is something rare amongst European politicians,
05:36to have both sides of the US speaking to you.
05:40That's very, very true. And I think that's why Rutter, his time has come.
05:44You know, he has wanted to be sectioned for a while and things were not breaking his way.
05:50And it was tough. As you know, Hungary held out.
05:52They weren't quite, they wanted to extract some concessions before they would approve Rutter.
05:59But I think Rutter, because of what you just talked about, he's going to,
06:03those are the makings of another great secretary general.
06:07And again, charisma is helpful and a sense of humor is helpful and all of that, too.
06:11But you don't want to be a secretary general that always makes headlines.
06:15Because, you know, and the alliance with 32 members, that will always upset someone.
06:19And I think one thing that Stoltenberg did,
06:22he was able to thread the needle and bring everyone along without alienating any ally.
06:28When he leaves NATO headquarters, all the allies will be throwing roses his way.
06:34Look, if you mentioned world leaders, I'm interested, two points here.
06:38If you mentioned, say, obviously President Putin,
06:41but if you mentioned President Macron to your average member of the public in the US,
06:45you would imagine many people have heard of him.
06:47How much of a figure, a known figure, is Mark Rutter amongst politicians
06:52and amongst the ordinary public?
06:55In the United States, I don't think he's probably well known at all.
06:59And again, for the United States, that's not so unusual.
07:02There's not many heads of state and government that the average American is going to know about.
07:06Macron, though, is known and he's admired here in the US.
07:11But in terms of Rutter, I think he will become well known
07:14because as the tensions continue to increase in Europe,
07:18I think Mark Rutter's face will be known to people who watch the news here in the United States
07:23and read the newspapers and will want to see just what this new secretary general is made of.
07:29So I think he will become known. He's not there yet.
07:33A final thought from you, which I'll be very interested to hear.
07:37I know from speaking to him in the past in interviews and talking to his advisors
07:41that he does like a particular style of life.
07:44It's well reported as well in his biography that he goes to the same restaurants.
07:47He cycles everywhere in The Hague.
07:49I just wonder how much his life is suddenly going to change when you take on the head of NATO.
07:57Well, his life is going to change.
07:59If he's going to be cycling anywhere in Brussels, he'll have a big security contingent all around him.
08:05So I'm not sure how good that cycling atmosphere will be for him.
08:10But he's going to be really busy.
08:12And I mean, that's an understatement. He's got a war on his hands.
08:16He's got 32 allies who are in governments that right now are having elections,
08:22like in the United States, like in France, where we are at a place of political turmoil.
08:28And the secretary general has to handle that political turmoil.
08:32He's not just looking at the Russians and the Chinese.
08:35He's also working looking at European politics, politics in the European Union, as well as in Washington.
08:42That's going to take a lot of his time.
08:45And on top of that, he's having to deal with the military implications of this war in Europe, too.
08:50So I do hope that he, just for his own mental well-being, that he can carve some time out to ride his bike,
08:57to go to a cafe, to try to relax, because there's going to be a lot of demand for him.
09:03And he won't get much of a honeymoon, I'm afraid.
09:05He's going to run right into a lot of work when Gen Sotenberg leaves Brussels and heads back to Norway.
09:12So enjoy the coffees now before October the 7th.
09:15And so the café verkiert, as the Dutch say.
09:17And that's maybe why the Mieverin comes in, able to move and shake and actually make people work.
09:23Great to talk to you, James J. Townsend, on the program.
09:26I'll talk to you again soon, no doubt, when he takes up the job, particularly from the Atlantic Council.
09:31Thanks for your time.
09:32I look forward to it.