Haaretz columnist and Netanyahu biographer Anshel Pfeffer on a possible ceasefire deal amid division in Israel. Journalist Barkha Dutt on India’s national election. Correspondent Gustavo Valdes on immigration and America’s southern border. Former white nationalist R. Derek Black on their new memoir “The Klansman’s Son.”
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amman Porn Company.
00:07Here's what's coming up.
00:09We are working in countless ways to return our hostages.
00:13I think about them all the time.
00:15Political pressure on Netanyahu ramps up as four hostage families find out their loved
00:20ones are dead.
00:22So what's holding up the long-awaited deal between Israel and Hamas?
00:27I speak to Haaretz columnist Anshul Theper, then the world's largest exercise in democracy.
00:37Prime Minister Narendra Modi looks set to win a rare third term in India's election,
00:43but it's closer than expected.
00:45Indian journalist Barkha Dutt joins me to discuss.
00:49Also ahead.
00:50My family believes something that they believe is true and moral, and the rest of the world
00:55just despises them for it.
00:57From white nationalism to anti-racism, Michelle Martin's conversation with our Derek Black
01:04about their new book, The Klansman's Son.
01:24Amman Porn Company is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Atwood and
01:31Leslie Williams, Candace King Weir, The Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss, Mark
01:39J. Bleschner, The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, Charles Rosenblum,
01:48Ku and Patricia Ewan, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara
01:55Hope Zuckerberg, additional support provided by these funders, and by contributions to
02:01your PBS station from viewers like you.
02:05Thank you.
02:07Welcome to the program, everyone.
02:08I'm Bianna Goldriga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
02:12In Israel, any hopes for a ceasefire deal appear to be dwindling, with Prime Minister
02:17Benjamin Netanyahu walking a political tightrope.
02:20On one hand, hostage families, opposition leaders and U.S. President Biden, all pressuring
02:25the Israeli leader not to back away from a deal, while, on the other hand, hardline Cabinet
02:30ministers are threatening to resign should he accept a diplomatic resolution.
02:35President Biden announced Friday that the plan had come from Israel, and yet, at the
02:39same time, Netanyahu is vowing to continue the war until Hamas is destroyed.
02:45All of this is creating an understandable air of confusion.
02:48Meantime, on the ground in Gaza, the death toll has surpassed 36,400, and the situation
02:55for those held captive worsens.
02:57On Monday, the families of four hostages were informed that their loved ones were dead.
03:02Chaim Perry, Yoram Metzger, Amiram Cooper and Nadav Popowel, the IDF, says they were
03:09killed while together in Khan Yunis during an operation there against Hamas.
03:15To unpack all of this, I'm joined now by Haaretz columnist and Netanyahu biographer
03:19Anshul Pfeffer.
03:20Welcome back to the program, Anshul.
03:22It's good to see you again.
03:25Let's begin with this deal that President Biden announced, presented, saying that this
03:31was an Israeli proposal.
03:33Now there's been confusion going back and forth as to how much of that proposal was
03:39initiated by Israel, as opposed to the United States, Netanyahu then shortly reiterating
03:44that he will not stop this war and insisted on total victory.
03:49Your colleague at Haaretz, Amos Harrell, said that Biden's speech, quote, has shown the
03:54world how big the gap is between the Netanyahu of the war cabinet and the Netanyahu of the
04:00security cabinet.
04:03Was what we saw from President Biden a successful way to finally put Bibi in a corner?
04:10I think it was.
04:11I think that the way that Biden presented it, timing of it, the way that he basically
04:18didn't allow Netanyahu to escape, acknowledging the fact that this was indeed a proposal that
04:25came from Netanyahu's war cabinet.
04:28And let's be clear.
04:29This is not a deal.
04:30This is not an agreement.
04:31This is just a proposal for negotiation.
04:34This is something that has to be still—the details of it have to be hashed out with Hamas.
04:39And Hamas has so far not responded officially.
04:43We're hearing contradicting responses from the various Hamas figures.
04:49So what we're seeing here is basically Biden outing Netanyahu, and Netanyahu did present
04:56a—himself, the Israeli war cabinet, chaired by Netanyahu, presented a proposal which also
05:03contemplates a cease-fire, a permanent cease-fire.
05:07But the problem is that the details of this are very hazy, and this is something coming
05:12from the war cabinet.
05:13It's not coming from the entire government.
05:15In the wider cabinet of Netanyahu, there are far-right politicians who hold Netanyahu's
05:20fate, and they certainly are not signed on to this proposal.
05:23Yeah, and you're talking about Ben-Gurion Smoczak in particular, who threatened to leave
05:29this government.
05:30But you have heard from other opposition leaders, like Yair Lapid, who have proposed
05:34replacing them and supporting keeping this government alive, at least for the time being.
05:40Do you think that that is a proposal that Yair Lapid is serious about offering and one
05:45that perhaps Bibi would have to contemplate accepting?
05:49I think Yair Lapid is certainly serious about that.
05:53And like many other Israeli figures, realizes that the only way to save at least some of
06:00the hostages, and as we know, the number of hostages alive in Gaza are dwindling, the
06:05only way to save them is some kind of agreement with Hamas.
06:10It may not be a permanent cease-fire, but it will probably be something less permanent,
06:14some kind of a truce.
06:16But that is probably the only way of getting some of the hostages out alive.
06:22And Lapid, I think, is very serious when he says Netanyahu will give you political cover
06:27if you need it for the duration of the truce, and Netanyahu has to make his choice.
06:32Netanyahu can pass this through the Knesset, through the government.
06:37He has the majority to do so, but at the same time, he will lose his own personal majority,
06:43the majority he won back in November 22, in the last election.
06:47And for Netanyahu, the prospect of losing that majority is something that he doesn't
06:51want to face.
06:52He fought so hard to get a majority.
06:55He fought five election campaigns and spent 18 months in opposition until that moment
07:00arrived.
07:01And now to give up on that for the hostages' sake is something which is very difficult
07:06for him.
07:07Another opposition leader and opponent of Netanyahu's, but emergency war cabinet member
07:12Benny Gantz, has given the ultimatum that, by June 8, if Prime Minister Netanyahu hasn't
07:18put forward a day-after plan, that he would leave government.
07:22Now, there are many theories as to why he felt pressure to do so at the time.
07:27Obviously, he has set firm all along that the priority should be the hostages, the priority
07:31should be for a day-after plan.
07:32But he's also saying his poll numbers internally start to decline as well.
07:36Do you think that we will, in fact, see him leave if there is not a concrete proposal
07:41as of next week?
07:42BENJAMIN GANTZ, Former Prime Minister of the United States of America, New York, United
07:43States of America President-Elect, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:44to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:45to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:46to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:47to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:48to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:49to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:50to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:51to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:52to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:53to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
07:54to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:03to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:09to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:15to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:20to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:23to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:24to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:25to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:26to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:27to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
08:28to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
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12:19to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
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12:23to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
12:24to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
12:25to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
12:26to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
12:27to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador to the United States of America, U.S. Ambassador
12:29these families, these hostages every single day.
12:32I can't get into his head. Even someone who's covered him as closely and for as long as
12:36you have can get into his head. But is that the sense that many Israelis feel, that he
12:42thinks about these families every single day?
12:44Well, I think that if that was the case, then we would see a much closer level of engagement
12:51between Netanyahu and the hostages' families. I mean, you mentioned President Biden. President
12:56Biden has spoken with some of the families before Netanyahu has and much more frequently
13:03than he has. And he's given you the number that they can call him. And we know that he
13:08speaks to them on a regular basis, whereas, according to the families, Netanyahu has barely
13:13had time in the last eight months to talk to them.
13:15We see his media proxies attack the families on social media for putting pressure on the
13:22government for helping Hamas in that way. So, no, I'm not convinced Netanyahu constantly
13:28thinks about the families, about the hostages, though, like you say, I can't get into his
13:34head.
13:35How are Israelis reacting at the time now where it appeared until last minute that there
13:40was a specific date as early as next week for Netanyahu to come to Washington to address
13:46a joint session of Congress after being receiving an invitation from both Democratic and Republican
13:51leaders? It looks like that's now being pushed back to perhaps July.
13:56But I'm just wondering the perception within Israel of what that optic will look like,
14:01given that I know there's a lot of tension between the prime minister and local journalists
14:06there on the ground. He doesn't spend much time one-on-one with them, as he does with
14:10Western journalists.
14:12And now we have him coming to address a joint session of Congress here. Given all of the
14:20tension boiling over there at home?
14:23Well, Netanyahu, as we're seeing now in the polls, has lost the trust of around 70 percent
14:30of Israelis who wanted to resign and wanted a new election, either immediately or as soon
14:36as the war ends. They don't want to see him as their leader anymore.
14:40But Netanyahu, at the same time, has this incredible self-belief and confidence in his
14:45own powers of rhetoric, and that if he shows Israelis how he goes to Washington and stands
14:50up for Israel in a way that no one else can and talks to the Congress and tells them all
14:56the wonderful, uses the biblical quotes that he uses and the baseball jokes and all the
15:03shtick that he's been doing for so many years, that will somehow rebuild Israeli confidence
15:09in him.
15:10So, we're skeptical, but Netanyahu has been doing this for so many years. He doesn't learn
15:15new tricks. He just repeats the same ones he's done before. And maybe a speech to Congress
15:23will change things, but I don't think so.
15:26I think that this will only convince the small, but still loyal group of supporters Netanyahu
15:33has.
15:34Let me ask you about the concerns that we're seeing there in the north of the country,
15:39specifically these huge fires that have been sparked by Hezbollah shelling. This, as I
15:45would say and argue that there has been an under-reporting and focus on just the growing
15:51tensions there with Hezbollah, the fact that you have got 60,000 people there that have
15:57had to leave their homes effectively.
16:01Where are things with regards to Hezbollah and concerns about another front opening there?
16:07Ben-Gvir, for example, said in response to this, and these images are terrible, it's
16:12time for all of Lebanon to burn. Is the ground operation, is a ground operation in Lebanon
16:19growing closer, in your view?
16:21Well, there is a second front. There has been a second front from the day after October
16:267th, when Hezbollah started firing rockets and missiles at Israeli communities, forcing
16:31tens of thousands of people to evacuate. And that's been the situation ever since. It's
16:37a second front. There is a war there, but it's a low intensity war. It's a war which
16:40doesn't reach more than a few kilometers beyond the border on either side. And now it's being
16:48brought home by these scenes of the terrible forest fires because of the weather now being
16:54caused by the rockets. But we're still, I still don't detect on the Israeli side, and I
16:59think neither on the side of Hezbollah, a real desire to go for an all-out war. Because
17:06first of all, Israel is war-weary. Israel is still fighting in Gaza. And everybody knows
17:12that an all-out war between Israel and Hezbollah will mean terrible destruction on both sides,
17:18in Israel and in Lebanon. I don't think, I said Israel doesn't want that. Ben-Gvir obviously
17:24talks, because he's a fascist and a populist who likes to talk about burning other countries and
17:31flattening other nations. We don't take that seriously. But yes, there is a serious threat
17:37of this escalating into an all-out war. And it's very much connected to what's happening in Gaza,
17:41because if there is a ceasefire in Gaza, then Hezbollah will probably stop harassing Israel
17:46with these rockets. And there may be an opening for some kind of diplomatic arrangement in Lebanon.
17:52But since that is all currently linked to what's happening in Gaza,
17:56it means that we're constantly looking backward and saying, hold on, can there still be,
18:00can there be some kind of deal with Hamas? And this gives Hamas even more power bargaining,
18:06because they know how much pressure this is causing Israel right now on the Lebanese border.
18:14I don't want to end things by putting you in a tough spot with another one of your
18:18colleagues, Aloof Ben. But I just wanted to see if you agree with his latest assessment
18:22predicting that Netanyahu is on the cusp of dissolving Parliament. Would you agree with that?
18:29I certainly think that's an alternative Netanyahu may use. He has in the past.
18:33This would be a gamble, and it would mean that he obviously would be risking
18:40two more years in office than he would have without having an early election.
18:45But it would solve basically many problems for Netanyahu. Netanyahu could do stuff
18:51after dissolving the Knesset for the space of about three months of an election campaign,
18:57which he's currently reluctant to do, mainly because of the far right pressure.
19:04It's certainly an alternative. But at the same time, he may not rush to risk
19:13two more years in office, in the knowledge that he may not win this election.
19:17So, I half agree with Aloof that it's certainly something that maybe he could do.
19:23I'm not sure yet if he's quite ready for it.
19:25JUDY WOODRUFF Very diplomatic response to
19:27the question there. Anshul Thakur, always great to see you. Thanks so much for joining the program.
19:32We will return now to India and the world's biggest election. After six weeks and 642
19:38million votes cast, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his BJP party look on course for a
19:44third consecutive term in office. But early results show that it was a tighter race than
19:49expected, with the opposition party making a competitive showing, headed up by the former
19:54grandson, the grandson of former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. So, will they deny Modi, the super
20:00majority that he was seeking? And what might the next five years look like? While the Hindu
20:04nationalist leader retains massive popularity across the country, pointing to advancements in
20:10infrastructure and technology, critics fear his continued crackdown on freedom of expression.
20:16Indian journalist Barkha Dutt has been following the results closely and joins
20:20the program from New Delhi. Barkha, welcome to the show. Not the turnout,
20:25not the final results that Modi had expected, but, obviously, he came out fully embracing this win,
20:33a historic consecutive third term win, the first time we have seen that since the
20:39independence leader of Nehru. So, he has much to applaud and celebrate, but also now going back to
20:48sort of go over how things went wrong for his ultimate goal of a super majority.
20:55Well, absolutely. This seems like such a paradoxical moment, because although Modi
20:59has made history with that third term and he's poised to be sworn in as the next prime minister,
21:06the fact is that it's a victory with shades of defeat. And let me explain. The prime minister
21:11had given a call, Modi had given a call for a 400-seat goal in India's parliament for him and
21:18his allies. But instead, we've seen a kind of slip, a fall down, a stumble, call it what you will,
21:25that has taken Modi and his party, the Bharatiya Janata Party, the BJP, below the majority mark.
21:31What this means is that a politician who has never, never, since he was a state politician
21:36in Gujarat and since he's been prime minister, ever been part of a coalition government where
21:41he's had to depend on other parties, he will now have to depend on regional allies, state leaders,
21:47to basically form the government. So, automatically, that sort of invincibility,
21:51that aura around Modi that he's unbeatable has gone. And, secondly, it will raise questions
21:58potentially about whether the government will be stable in the way that Modi would like,
22:03because he's dependent on other parties for political longevity.
22:07STEPHANIE SY And something he's not used to,
22:09obviously, and clearly was not anticipating. Walk us through what that might look like,
22:15what this new coalition with smaller parties will look like for the government.
22:21DR. RANIT MISHORI To start with, while I'm not
22:27diminishing or I'm not taking away from the fact that Modi is still a very strong political brand
22:32nationally, how laws are made in India, how laws are passed in India will dramatically change.
22:38In the past, we have seen the Modi government pushing through
22:42legislations on contentious issues that they believe in. For example, a new citizenship
22:47act is a decision that has been taken by the government that not all of its allies were
22:51comfortable with. But earlier, the brute numbers of the BJP in the last two terms of the Modi
22:56government were so large that they were able to take some of these decisions.
23:01Now, for example, the Modi government has long wanted a uniform civil code, one law,
23:07one sort of family law that would disallow different communities to have their own laws.
23:15To push this through, it will be much tougher for him. He needs the consent not just of his
23:21own partners, but the opposition numbers have swelled in Parliament. So that's the first change
23:25we're going to see, how India's Parliament works and what kind of laws that can be pushed through.
23:29Secondly, there's an anticipation. I think somebody described it well. It's a return to
23:34normal politics. You see, today, Modi is powerful, but he feels like another politician.
23:41And therefore, there's a kind of normalization instead of the kind of cult of personality,
23:47the unbridled power in some ways that Modi had wielded in the last two terms.
23:53So do you anticipate a humbling or a more humbled Modi for a third term?
23:58You know, in his victory speech, he did not make any acknowledgement of disappointment.
24:04He did not refer to the fact that they had fallen short of the goal that they had set
24:08for themselves. They've fallen short of the majority. But whether or not he acknowledges
24:12it as such, it has been a humbling, it has been a containment of Modi. And I'll tell you something
24:19very interesting. I've been traveling across India to report these elections. And his own
24:24voters, I asked them a question. I said, what do you like about Modi? And they would name India's
24:29place in the world, security, infrastructure. And then I'd say, what do you want him to do
24:34differently? And every voter I met gave me two answers. One, a greater focus on jobs,
24:40a greater focus on livelihood issues. And two, dial down the Hindu-Muslim rhetoric,
24:45dial down the religious rhetoric. Mr. Modi was extremely strident in many of his campaign
24:51speeches this time. And that focus on sort of religious issues, polarizing issues,
24:57had begun to make his own voters uncomfortable. And the way I see this verdict is,
25:01it's a restoration of the checks and balances that every democracy needs. You don't want anybody to
25:06be too powerful, not the government, not the opposition. And somewhere, there's been a healthy
25:12rebalancing, a reordering of Indian democracy with this verdict.
25:16Yeah, he really ran on a Hindu nationalist agenda. And going through some of your really
25:22important and fascinating reporting, it was interesting that, even when he saw an initial
25:28dip in voter turnout, the first phase of this election, he really doubled down
25:34in that nationalism. He used words such as infiltrators, those who have more children.
25:40And then, a few weeks later, he sort of distanced himself from those remarks and
25:44denied that he was referring to Muslims. But when you spoke to people on the ground,
25:48I was really struck by what one farmer told you. He said, politics based on religion is worthless.
25:54What we want is 24-7 electricity, enough water for irrigation, and opportunities for our children.
26:01Don't talk to us about Hindus and Muslims. They are both good people.
26:05Talk to us about how our lives can be better.
26:07Absolutely. And this was a farmer I met in a remote interior village of North India. And
26:15as I sat talking to him, there were little children playing all around us. Most children
26:19had big dreams of being a doctor, of joining the Indian military. But the fact is that their
26:24immediate environment doesn't have those enabling mechanisms that will allow them that kind of
26:29education to pursue their dreams. And people on the ground said to me, we don't want to hear about
26:35these issues. These are not the issues that matter to us.
26:38And I am still mystified as to why the prime minister doubled down on those speeches.
26:45It didn't do anything for his image, internationally or domestically,
26:48and it didn't yield any extra votes either. And I'll tell you something very interesting.
26:53Right before the campaign, Mr. Narendra Modi presided over the grand opening of a temple,
27:01a temple that was built where a disputed mosque once stood, the Ram Mandir. And,
27:06of course, Lord Ram is worshiped by millions of Indians. But the BJP thought that this
27:11temple moment was going to be its defining moment in this campaign.
27:16One of the seats that the BJP has lost today is the town where this temple actually came up. And
27:23I found that a really very instructive message. The BJP has overused, overplayed
27:30the religious card, the religion card, rather. And they're having to pay for that in their own
27:38bastions, states where they used to dominate, where this kind of politics used to work.
27:44It's obviously peak saturated, run its course.
27:47Right, because they looked to be on course to taking 240 seats, the BJP. In 2019, the last
27:53election, they won 303 seats. This clearly is a referendum on Modi and Modi-ism, more so than it
28:02is an endorsement of the opposition, specifically the dominant opposition, that being Rahul Gandhi,
28:07who was not seen as a very strong candidate.
28:10Well, Rahul Gandhi, I would say, is back in play. We'll have to see how he conducts himself and how
28:19the opposition conducts itself over the next few years while the Modi government heads for a third
28:25term. But what I will say is that you are right to the extent that I see this verdict more as a
28:33need to deaccelerate the Modi juggernaut, to contain it within a framework where it is more
28:40accountable to the people of India than a positive vote for another individual on the other side of
28:46the trenches. In any case, the opposition did not declare a prime ministerial candidate.
28:50And Modi, we're a parliamentary democracy, but Modi made it almost presidential. He made it all
28:56about himself. And that comes with benefits and risks. When you win, you get all the credit. But
29:01when you drop 63 seats, as the BJP has in this verdict, well, then you made it about yourself.
29:09So people are going to say that this is a weakening, a diminishing of brand Modi. And
29:15that's how I would really describe what's happened today. Modi heads into a historic third term
29:20with his wings clipped, with his brand or his authority somewhat diminished.
29:25And he set ambitious goals for himself, for the country under his leadership and party
29:31leadership for BJP. I mean, this is already one of the fastest growing economies
29:36in the world. He had hoped in this term that it would move from fifth largest economy
29:41to third largest economy. He set a specific target date of 2047 to where this developing
29:46country would indeed turn into a developed country. Does any of this stifle those ambitions?
29:54And again, the stock market is not indicative of where we're going to see the economy by any
29:58stretch of the imagination. But we saw a pretty sharp sell off today following this news.
30:04Well, I think the stock market doesn't endorse or gets nervous with coalition governments,
30:10governments where parties don't have a one party majority because they see them as potentially
30:14unstable, because if your allies, your partners were to leave you, the government would fall.
30:19So markets prefer a more predictable politics. But in terms of the economy, I do actually believe
30:25that the message that Mr. Modi will take and I think will have to take from this verdict is
30:31to focus on the economy and prioritize it in his third term. I should say, I don't think it's
30:38likely, but I should say that there are certain opposition leaders who are saying don't take the
30:42third term for granted. There are whispers about the opposition trying to break away the two or
30:48three regional partners that are with Mr. Modi right now. I don't believe that that will fructify
30:53immediately, but there's also that up in the air. But let's assume for a moment that the Modi
30:58government does go into its third term. I do think that Mr. Modi will try and repair or salvage the
31:05legacy that's got bruised in this verdict by actually focusing on the economy, because one
31:11of the messages from the heartland of India is underemployed or unemployed young people.
31:19And I'll tell you about another young man I met in one of the states where the BGP has actually
31:24faced defeat today. And he said to me, if Mr. Modi can ask for another opportunity from the
31:29country in his mid-70s, then in my early 20s, don't I deserve to have a good job?
31:35Barkha Dutt, thank you so much for your very sharp analysis. We appreciate your time.
31:40Thank you for having me.
31:42Well, now to some politics right here in the United States, where President Biden is taking
31:46a major step in a crucial election issue, immigration and America's southern border.
31:52The president is announcing an executive action which will dramatically limit
31:56migrants' ability to seek asylum at the Mexican border if they've crossed illegally.
32:01Joining me now on this is correspondent Gustavo Valdez, who is in Mexico City. And, Gustavo,
32:06once this is signed, it can go into action immediately because there's a threshold set
32:11for those who cross illegally into this country to where this order can go into effect after more
32:17than 2,500 asylum seekers go to the border. Yesterday, we saw yesterday alone about 3,500
32:24cross the border. So we could see action, the border effectively shut down as soon as tonight.
32:29Well, that's yet to be seen. The Mexican president today in his morning press conference
32:34addressed this issue, and he ensured Mexicans that the border will not be shut down because it's too
32:40important for both nations. So the definition of closing the border is going to have to be
32:46clearly explained by the Biden administration as to what they mean when they're talking about
32:52closing the border. If it's going to be a strategic closing of the border,
32:56if it's going to be a strategic closing of certain points, or if it's going to be
33:01something they're doing in between points of entry, there is chaos in the border.
33:06There are people who show up at the crossing points requesting asylums. There are those who
33:11get tired of waiting and cross illegally, sometimes turning themselves over to immigration authorities.
33:17And there are those who just want to get in, and they don't want to have anything to do
33:21with immigration authorities. Yeah, and the timing is interesting
33:24because we have seen the numbers of those seeking asylum crossing the border
33:29decline since their peak in December of last year.
33:33But we also are hearing reports that the administration, the U.S. administration,
33:37had wanted to wait until after the Mexican elections. The results were in. President-elect
33:42Shane Baum yesterday was given a mandate, an overriding mandate there in the country.
33:50And also, clearly, here in the United States, this is one of the most pressing and important
33:55issues for voters and one that many view as a weakness for the Democrats and for the administration.
34:03That's right. So, now they know who the next president in Mexico is. They know that
34:08it's somebody who is like President López Obrador, so they can assume or negotiate on
34:15the same terms, trying to implement the same policies they have with López Obrador,
34:20who leaves office in October, so they can continue past October before the November election.
34:27But this is something that could backfire to President Biden in his efforts to try to show
34:34that he's doing something on immigration, because what we saw when the COVID restrictions on
34:40immigration ended, we saw this rush of migrants trying to beat the deadline and get there.
34:46So, we could see the same thing happening now, and people waiting to see when this action takes.
34:52We might see that rush and turn into a headache for the Mexican — for the United States,
34:58for the Biden administration. So, it could be counterproductive, not to mention the lawsuits
35:03he's going to be facing, given that groups like the ACLU is already saying they're going to sue.
35:07Yes, and it's exactly what we saw when former President Trump
35:10tried to use this exact mandate while he was in office, as you mentioned.
35:15And the most important thing here, Gustavo, is that it doesn't address the issue at hand. This
35:20is really just a stopgap, but it doesn't address why we're seeing this migrant crisis. I'm just
35:26wondering, from what you're reporting and from what you're hearing there in Mexico,
35:31how much frustration is there on the pressure this now puts on Mexico?
35:36Well, like I said, the Mexican president kind of dismissed the whole idea. They said,
35:43deportations happen all the time. And he tries to present, at least to the Mexican people,
35:50that he's trying to press the American government, not just the presidency,
35:54but Congress, to do something on immigration. He has a 10-point plan that he wants the United
35:59States to implement. Among the things he wants is legalization of undocumented,
36:04something the president alone cannot do. But he did say that whoever, from whichever party,
36:10does something on immigration will have the gratitude of the Mexican people.
36:16But he also established other points, like he wants to reestablish the recognition to his
36:21relationship with Venezuela. He wants more money to South and Central America
36:26to prevent people from leaving. And he also wants the United States to stop sending weapons
36:30to points of war. So, there are other issues in place. So, perhaps,
36:35President Obrador knows that he has the upper hand controlling migration in Mexico,
36:41and he's trying to use it to pressure the Biden administration.
36:45Gustavo Valdez, joining us from Mexico City, thank you.
36:50Well, now a group particularly in favor of hostility towards immigrants is the far right
36:55white nationalists, which our next guest grew up being a part of and has since renounced.
37:00In a new memoir, The Klansman's Son, R. Derek Black writes about their upbringing and personal
37:06transformation from a prominent white supremacist from childhood to an outspoken anti-racist
37:12critic.
37:13They join Michelle Martin to reflect on their journey and offer insights into why people
37:17hold on to extremist beliefs.
37:20This interview, we should note, is part of Exploring Hate, our ongoing series on anti-Semitism,
37:25racism, and extremism.
37:27Thanks Bianna.
37:28Derek Black, thank you so much for talking with us.
37:31Thanks for having me, Michelle.
37:32And if people don't know your story completely, they probably have heard about you.
37:37You grew up in a white nationalist family.
37:39David Duke, maybe the most famous white nationalist in America, was your dad's best friend.
37:46You called him uncle.
37:49You've been written about quite extensively.
37:51Some very moving and in-depth reporting has been sort of done about your journey.
37:55But this book is you writing about your life in your own words.
37:59Why did you think that was important to do?
38:02Yeah, I was really glad that I eventually got to a place in the last couple of years
38:07where I felt like I had enough distance from my upbringing to even contextualize it.
38:15After Biden's electoral victory, I was feeling like this moment of focus on the far right
38:22and focus on the power of this movement was getting a little bit too little attention,
38:27actually.
38:28Because historically, in those moments, particularly when there's an administration change, that's
38:32when this movement tends to surge.
38:34I was very concerned that people weren't focusing on that.
38:37And then January 6th was something that really, really crystallized that.
38:42And it's been since then that I've been trying to think about the social context, the history
38:46that my family came from, and really describe where I think this is going.
38:53You're a trained historian, so you have access both to kind of the tools, you know, of the
38:59academy, as well as your own personal story.
39:01And one of the things this book does is both.
39:04I mean, you talk about kind of the history of the white nationalist movement, you know,
39:07in the United States, and you interweave that with your own personal story.
39:11You know, I was trying to think of an analogy to your experience, and I couldn't decide.
39:16Was it that you were like a child actor?
39:19Or were you like a child soldier?
39:22I mean, I think I, it was only really in writing the book that I started thinking about just
39:29how, I don't know what the right word is, like how claustrophobic being raised the way
39:36I was felt.
39:39I start the book with the scene when I was 10 and giving my first interview, and I remembered
39:46that.
39:47It was part of my story of my life, something that was very visceral.
39:50Well, actually, why don't we start there?
39:51Why don't you tell this, sir, because that is how you start the book.
39:54You gave your first television interview on one of those nationally syndicated talk shows
40:01that were super popular at a certain point.
40:03It was with my dad, and I had grown up in Florida, and the show flew us to Chicago to
40:08be on the Jimmy Jones show.
40:09It was sort of like Jerry Springer had a yelling, brawling audience, but he negotiated that
40:15I would be able to be offstage and not have to go out in front of these people who were
40:21yelling at him, along with all of these other people who were brought together as hateful
40:25websites on the internet.
40:27And so representatives of the Westboro Baptist Church were there, and Nazi groups were there,
40:32and my dad was there, and I was there.
40:35I looked back on that, and I remembered it as the moment that I sort of began a path
40:40where I felt like I'm a spokesman for this cause and slowly able to represent myself
40:46more and take control of that narrative.
40:50My dad asked me over and over again, are you sure you want to do this?
40:53You can back out.
40:54You can even quit even up until the day of the show.
40:57And that feeling of him trusting me was something that I remember feeling so cared for and really
41:03wanting to give back.
41:05And it also taught me all these lessons about just how the world sees us.
41:11I was really surprised at the end of the interview, listening to myself explain to Jenny Jones
41:17that the reason all these people were so angry at us, the reason that they were jeering and
41:22sending me hateful emails was because they did not understand us.
41:27And I just, throughout all of my adolescence, like that feeling of like my family believes
41:33something that they believe is true and moral, and the rest of the world just despises them
41:38for it.
41:39And so we all have to have each other's backs.
41:41Like that was age 13, 14, 16, 17, all the way till college.
41:48What would you say sort of defines white nationalism?
41:51And why do you think it persists in this country to the degree that it does?
41:56Yeah, I try in the book to make sure to call it white nationalism or the white power movement
42:03because it's this social movement where the people know each other.
42:07They believe that they're a part of this, it's a big part of their identity.
42:12And that's something that's separate from just racism or white supremacy or being xenophobic
42:16or anti-Semitic or any of the specific things they believe, because they see themselves
42:22as a part of this movement that has 60 years of history and goals, like political and violent
42:28goals.
42:30And then what they believe is something that they've taken from all these different aspects
42:36of white supremacy in our culture and in our history.
42:39They believe that race is biological, and it predicts all this stuff about people, which
42:44just so thousand times over disproven that it's a social context.
42:50And yet they can be quite educated and convince themselves of this.
42:55And then they also believe in an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory that all anti-racist movements
43:00are really being run by Jewish people.
43:02And both of those require that you see the world in a quite strange way.
43:07And I think there's also a lesson that I've learned there, which is, as long as something
43:14is serving your community, people can convince themselves of just about anything.
43:18I think there's sometimes this sense that people have to be ignorant or uneducated or
43:24desperate to be racist or bigoted in whatever way.
43:28And that was never my experience.
43:30People have degrees, they have white collar jobs, and yet they see the world in a way
43:35that explains and justifies their existence.
43:39It's not the case that people just have to be stupid and therefore we can argue them
43:43out of it.
43:44I think it's about their own sense of themselves and their commitment to other people that
43:49keeps them in something.
43:50And I think that is also the way that you change somebody's mind.
43:53It's not just by giving them facts.
43:56I think it often sounds like facts, but it's about getting them to be open to people that
44:00they've never considered themselves responsible for, that never considered themselves as somebody
44:05who loves.
44:06You mentioned that one of the reasons for this book is January 6th, right?
44:10I think that was one of the surprises for a lot of people when you realized who were
44:13the people who attacked the Capitol.
44:16I think a lot of people would like it to believe it was some sort of people living off in a
44:19shack someplace.
44:20That's not the case.
44:21So how do you understand that?
44:23Right.
44:24I mean, we could tell in the days after, and we know much more certainly now, that members
44:30of this organized movement were really key on January 6th to sort of driving the crowd,
44:35pushing them further.
44:36And I think there's a real lesson there in just how a movement like this operates.
44:40It's not that they have millions of members.
44:42It's not that they're militias or something.
44:46It's that they believe things that exist in our society.
44:50They lean into ideas that are not from another planet, and they amplify them.
44:55They drive people who show up wanting to feel a little bit more justified, who want to not
45:01be called racist or some name, and they give them a space where they tell them they don't
45:07have to change.
45:08They don't have to rethink anything.
45:10They don't have to even respond to those words.
45:14And then that's also a point I was trying to make in the book, that some of the worst
45:17things that the media has done in covering the far-right movement is in acting like somebody
45:24being a part of this movement who has a bachelor's degree or who seems kind of nice or who watches
45:30movies or goes to chain restaurants, like, that's strange and notable, and like, oh,
45:34this person is hateful and also seems kind of normal.
45:38That's exactly what this movement wants.
45:41That's exactly how they want to be covered, because, for the most part, they are normal,
45:46because racism and anti-Semitism are normal in America.
45:51The other thing you write about, I think, very persuasively and also very movingly,
45:55is the role of relationships in a movement like this, is that it just becomes hard to
45:59leave.
46:00You love them, and they love you.
46:02And you wrote, for example, the white nationalist movement that I grew up in is constituted
46:07by relationships, both between current activists, as well as their equally strong feeling of
46:12inheritance and responsibility to those who came before them.
46:16It's impossible for me to truly separate an objective sense of this destructive ideology
46:21from the fact that I understand their self-identity, love so many of them, and can never really
46:26separate myself from their story.
46:29That's a pretty powerful insight.
46:32What was it about the college experience that changed your life?
46:37When I condemned white nationalism, I immediately had to look at myself and recognize that I
46:45had clearly grown up in a family, in a movement that was so committed to each other, that
46:51cared about each other so much, and in a family, in particular, that prided themselves on being
46:57the central leadership of this movement.
47:01And on one level, that just made sense.
47:02Of course, if you grew up in a life like that, then you'll lean into these beliefs
47:07and you'll justify them.
47:09But I had told myself all along that if the world thought we were wrong, I wanted to justify
47:15it.
47:16I wanted to seek out all the supposed facts.
47:17My family had acted the same way.
47:20But then when I got to the end of that, people in college had walked me through all the stupid
47:26statistics and the ways that white nationalists sort of abuse science and have all this stuff
47:33that's just not rigorous and doesn't hold up.
47:35And so at the end, I didn't have facts to support this belief.
47:38I didn't have a rational argument for it.
47:41And I had to accept that I'd gotten close to a community that made me recognize I didn't
47:45want to be a person who hurt them.
47:47And there was no misunderstanding.
47:48As long as I was advocating this ideology, I was hurting them.
47:51And to get to that point and still recognize that I did not want to condemn my family made
47:56me face the fact that my beliefs had been so based in identity, in care and love and
48:03wanting to be a part of the group of people who had raised me, like every relationship
48:08I had had up until I was 21 years old.
48:11And that feeling was just so disconcerting.
48:15You know, one of the weird ironies is, is that you attended New College in Sarasota,
48:20Florida.
48:21And one of the really interesting things about the current moment is that the current governor
48:26of Florida seems really dedicated to changing the leadership of that school.
48:35I mean, not just that school, but as you will have noticed, the conservative movement, particularly
48:40in some parts of the country, has become very aggressive about policing the books that kids
48:46read, the way certain issues are taught, particularly race, not only race, changing the leadership
48:55of certain institutions, eliminating diversity, equity and inclusion offices at state schools.
49:01Florida is kind of ground zero for that.
49:03I mean, the current governor says, you know, Florida is the place where woke goes to die.
49:06And I'm particularly wondering why you think New College should become such a focus of
49:11his attention, the movement's attention and his attention in particular.
49:15What I've heard is that it was raw convenience that the governor wants to test and wanted
49:21to test just how much direct control over the university system that his administration
49:27could wield.
49:28And New College, being the smallest university in the state university system with like fewer
49:33than 800 people was a good test case that they could just try to see how much using
49:39a supermajority in the state government and controlling the board of trustees could overwhelm
49:46the university and then practice that in other universities as well.
49:50It's been traumatic, though.
49:52The cultural silencing that's happened there, the students, I know students who are there
49:58now and they are, they feel policed and intimidated almost all the time just for their identities.
50:07The other thing I do want to mention is I think there's an emphasis that I really learned
50:11at New College that is not just about the way that history teaches around racism and
50:18anti-Semitism, but I think also the way that the administration is focusing on queer students,
50:22like particularly trans students, is something that is not the same issue, but it's remarkable
50:28the way that they're demonstrating how connected they feel like those movements are, that at
50:33the same time as this administration is banning the teaching of the history of slavery, the
50:38history of racism and white supremacy, teaching people that you can't say anything that makes
50:45you feel not proud about history, and at the same time they're also banning teachers
50:50and students from talking about gender, from talking about sexuality, that New College
50:56was a place that had a large trans population when I was there and still does, and it was
51:01a place that really made an inclusive environment in a society that just broadly is not, and
51:07the DeSantis administration has directly attacked trans students.
51:10They have imposed rules policing usage of bathrooms, making student conduct be something
51:18that going into the bathroom that does not align with a birth certificate is a criminal
51:25offense for some people, and then a student conduct violation where professors are meant
51:29to sort of monitor students and their presentations and their lives.
51:33So if you don't mind, I did notice that your own pronouns have changed.
51:39Tell me a little bit more about that.
51:41Yeah.
51:42I do define, describe myself as trans, and it's been something that's been a long journey.
51:47I'm really one that I'm still figuring out.
51:50It wasn't one that I was really ready to write about extensively in the book, although I
51:54described it a little bit.
51:57It's something, thoughts about gender has been something that I've experienced throughout
52:00my life, but it was really at New College that I found a community of people who even
52:05described a way to live authentically, and it wasn't until years after New College that
52:10I decided and realized I really don't want to keep trying to be something for someone
52:19else.
52:20I think I eventually realized there's nobody to try to be something for, and so I've been
52:23expanding, exploring my gender identity and my views, they and she, and it's been something
52:30that I've felt a lot more comfortable coming out about, really, as this book was coming
52:34out.
52:35And at the end of the year, I wasn't even sure whether I wanted to do that.
52:38Before we let you go, do you see a way forward for the rest of us who are grappling with
52:46these things, sort of the divisions in our society, the way that we seem so deeply polarized
52:53around things that some people thought were settled issues?
52:56I have a lot of faith, I mean, not even faith, I just know for a fact that people can and
53:03do always change.
53:05That is just inevitable experience of humanity.
53:09We are always changing, and there is nothing that is too far gone and can never go away
53:16or never change.
53:17We can rethink the most fundamental parts of ourselves.
53:20But it requires engagement and community connection, it requires being a part of the world and
53:28being open to other people, and we can't make that happen for anyone.
53:32You can't coerce somebody into being open to other people that they don't want to be.
53:37That's a choice that they have to make, and we can make opportunities for that.
53:42I think we all sort of have decisions to make about how do we want to exist in the world?
53:47How do we want to speak up?
53:49Something I learned from my university experience was that everybody said and did something.
53:54Some people invited me to come to weekly Shabbat dinners and really engage with my belief system.
54:01A lot of other people just spoke out and said, this is a community where we don't want students
54:07of color and Jewish students to feel afraid.
54:10That was an action that was super important to me.
54:12It was something that I felt ostracized at the moment, but it was something that made
54:17me feel like I needed to respond.
54:20If I didn't want students to feel unsafe in the community either, then I needed to answer
54:26for what was I doing to try to make that be true?
54:31The lesson I take from that is that everybody needs to do something to speak up for the
54:37world that they want to see, and that you never quite know the effect that that's going
54:41to have and who it's going to push and who it's going to nudge.
54:44It's not always something where you have an action and you immediately see the result,
54:50but still something that we need to persistently be trying to do.
54:53Derek Fleck, thank you so much for talking with us once again.
54:57Thanks so much, Michelle.
54:59It's really good to be here.
55:02And finally, to our forever heroes, thank you.
55:05Those were the words of French children welcoming some 50 American war veterans back to Normandy
55:10ahead of D-Day commemorations this Thursday.
55:14Among the veterans was Jake Larson, a 101-year-old best known for his 800,000 followers on TikTok
55:21as Papa Jake.
55:23He was just 15 when he enlisted, landing on Omaha Beach on D-Day, surviving unscathed.
55:30We'll be commemorating that historic day Thursday, bringing you special D-Day coverage live from
55:34Normandy.
55:35You won't want to miss the show.
55:37Well that is it for now.
55:39Thank you so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.