“Queenie” is a new TV series about a Jamaican-British woman in her mid-20s navigating life in London. It’s based on the best-selling novel by Candice Carty-Williams, who joins Michel Martin to talk about the show’s defiance of racial stereotypes.
NOTE: Due to a copyright claim for some scenes, watch it on Dailymotion on the link: https://dai.ly/x92b1xs.
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NOTE: Due to a copyright claim for some scenes, watch it on Dailymotion on the link: https://dai.ly/x92b1xs.
WARNING: Some pictures/scenes may contain disturbing content. Viewer discretion is advised.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amman Foreign Company.
00:07Here's what's coming up.
00:08Prime Minister Netanyahu disbands his war cabinet amid fears of a full-blown new front
00:14with Lebanon.
00:15The new Labour Party leader, former IDF General Yair Golan, joins me.
00:20Then...
00:21There's nothing normal at all about children living in a constant state of fear.
00:25No let up to the devastation in Gaza.
00:27We bring you a report on the patients trapped inside, and I speak to UNICEF's James Elder
00:33from Rafa.
00:34Also ahead...
00:35I'm loud, sassy, confrontational.
00:36I can't not be a strong black woman.
00:41A 25-year-old Jamaican-British woman straddling two cultures.
00:46Author Candice Carty-Williams talks to Michelle Martin about turning her best-selling novel
00:51Queenie into a new TV series.
01:12Amman Foreign Company is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Atwood
01:18and Leslie Williams, Candice King Weir, The Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss,
01:26Mark J. Bleschner, The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, Charles Rosenblum,
01:35Ku and Patricia Ewan, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara
01:42Hope Zuckerberg.
01:44Additional support provided by these funders and by contributions to your PBS station from
01:50viewers like you.
01:52Thank you.
01:55Welcome to the program, everyone.
01:56I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
01:58So who will run the war on Gaza now that the Israeli Prime Minister has dissolved his war
02:03cabinet?
02:04This after opposition figures Benny Gantz and Gadi Eisenkot quit last week amid growing
02:10disagreements over Netanyahu's handling of the war.
02:13An Israeli official says Netanyahu will, quote, hold smaller forums on sensitive matters and
02:20decision-making will now move back to the government's main security cabinet.
02:24Meanwhile, the war between Israel and Hezbollah across the Lebanese border is heating up.
02:30And U.S. Special Envoy Amos Hochstein arrived in Israel today meeting with Netanyahu and
02:36the president, Isaac Herzog, to urge de-escalation in the north.
02:40Ben Wiedemann has this report about how a wider war could be on the brink of erupting.
02:49Every day the message goes out from South Lebanon in slick propaganda videos accompanied
02:54by a stirring soundtrack.
02:58Hezbollah is ready to go from daily skirmishes to full-scale war with Israel.
03:05Mired in what appears to be an unwinnable war in Gaza, Israel has vowed to turn its
03:10military might on Hezbollah.
03:13Earlier this month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu visited the border, saying,
03:19we are prepared for very strong action in the north.
03:27But the Iranian-backed group is by far the most formidable battle-hardened foe Israel
03:33has faced on its borders since the 1973 October war.
03:40After its guerrillas forced Israel to pull out of south Lebanon 24 years ago, in 2006
03:46Hezbollah fought Israel to a standstill.
03:50Although the war left parts of Beirut and much of southern Lebanon in ruins.
03:57Retired Lebanese Army Brigadier General Elias Hanna knows the militant group well.
04:03Hezbollah is an exclusive club, well-disciplined, monitored, and they have, which is the most
04:10important issue, a charismatic leader, Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah.
04:16Since October, Israeli strikes have killed more than 300 Hezbollah fighters, including
04:21last week, high-ranking commander Talib Abdallah, given a hero's farewell in Beirut.
04:28At the funeral, senior Hezbollah leader Hashem Safieddin warned, we will increase our operations
04:34in intensity and force, in quantity and quality.
04:42Analysts believe Iran has provided Hezbollah with an arsenal of sophisticated long-range
04:48missiles capable of reaching Tel Aviv and beyond.
04:53Until now, Hezbollah has mostly limited its strikes to military targets along the rugged
04:59mountainous frontier, hitting Israel's extensive network of surveillance posts.
05:06It also says it has taken out an Iron Dome battery, the backbone of Israel's missile
05:11defences, and has used ground-to-air missiles to shoot down three top-of-the-line Hermes
05:17900 drones.
05:21In the process, forcing tens of thousands of Israelis to flee their homes in the north.
05:28Hezbollah is learning faster than Israel can adapt, says Hanna.
05:31They are learning.
05:33It's like learning process.
05:35It's like trial and error.
05:37So as far as you go in time, you are seeing more intensity, more combined use of weapon,
05:46and then more in-depth and more in effectiveness against the Israelis.
05:51And what is the problem?
05:52That the Israelis have no answer for that.
05:55Since October, Israel has bolstered its forces on the border and held exercises to prepare
06:01for war.
06:03Hezbollah is also ready for war, a war that is just one miscalculation away.
06:11Ben Wiedemann reporting from Beirut.
06:13Now, all across Israel, anti-government protesters are taking to the streets again, adding pressure
06:19on Netanyahu to call early elections, an outcome that he seems determined to avoid for as long
06:24as possible.
06:25But would a different government really change things?
06:28The once powerful Labor Party recently voted overwhelmingly for its new leader, the former
06:34IDF commander, Yair Golan.
06:37On October 7th, he put on his old uniform and drove to the Kibbutzim to save as many
06:42people as he could in the hours when government forces seemed to be paralyzed.
06:47If he can revitalize the traditional left and a peace camp, he could prove key to Israel's
06:52future and to that of the Palestinians.
06:55He attended today's anti-government protest in front of the Knesset, and he's joining
06:59us live from Jerusalem.
07:01Yair Golan, welcome to the program.
07:05Congratulations on your recent nomination as head of the Labor Party.
07:10Can I start by asking you, though, about what we just heard from our correspondent, Ben
07:15Wiedemann in Lebanon?
07:17You used to be northern commander.
07:19You know that whole area and that dynamic really well.
07:24What do you think is going to happen?
07:27Well, what happened in Lebanon is a good manifestation for the fact that we are countering a massive
07:36Iranian front against Israel composed by Hezbollah, Shiite militias in Iraq and Syria, and the
07:44Houthis from Yemen, as well as the Hamas and the Jihadist Islam heavily supported by Iran
07:51in the Gaza Strip.
07:53I think this symbolizes the fact that Israel is in the front line of international liberal
08:02democratic front against the most fundamentalist, religious, fanatic, Jihadist elements in the
08:10world.
08:12So we need to understand this very basic fact.
08:17And many, many thousands of people have been evacuated from their homes up there in the
08:22north, also on the other side in Lebanon.
08:25Up until now, it seems that it's been, quote-unquote, manageable, that it hasn't erupted into full-scale
08:32war like in 2006.
08:35Do you think it will?
08:36And what do you think the American special envoy would have said to your president and
08:41Prime Minister Netanyahu today about de-escalation?
08:46Well, I think that de-escalation is available.
08:52We need to reach hostages deal in the south as soon as possible.
08:56We need to reach ceasefire in the south as soon as possible.
09:01There are chances, reasonable chances, that by ceasefire in the south we will gain a ceasefire
09:07in the north, and we will be able to conduct the political internal process in order to
09:15replace this untrusted government, and in order to be well prepared for future challenges
09:23from the north and from the elsewhere.
09:26Yair Golan, how do you read the disbanding of the war cabinet?
09:32What will it mean?
09:33That Netanyahu gets more moderate, or that the right wing has more influence, or what?
09:40What exactly do you think it will mean for the prosecution of the war in Gaza?
09:47No doubt that Netanyahu is totally governed by the most extreme, fanatic elements in the
09:54government, irresponsible elements or persons like Bezalel Smutrich or like Itamar Ben-Gvir.
10:04They are the ones who really lead the Israeli policy right now.
10:08This is outrageous.
10:10It doesn't represent the majority of the Israelis.
10:14It's against the interest of Israel, and therefore this is a great manifestation that this government
10:21needs to be changed as soon as possible.
10:25You, I guess for that reason, to try to change the government, you have been taking part
10:31even today in anti-government protests in Jerusalem.
10:36What are you trying to achieve?
10:38What are these protesters demanding now?
10:41Well, we think that this government, because of the unbelievable failure, disaster of October
10:527th, and at the same time because of the misconduct, the misconducted way they lead this war, from
11:04all the reasons, from the past, from the present, and concerning the future, this is a government
11:11that cannot work the trust of the people, and therefore they need to be replaced.
11:17We are a nation in a crisis, and the nation in a crisis needs trusted leaders, trusted
11:26leadership, and we think, we're sure that we can provide much better leadership for
11:33the people of Israel.
11:35Yair Golan, did this come to you after, I guess your heroics in those first few hours
11:42on October 7th, when you started to hear what was going on, and you jumped into your uniform
11:48and went down to try to do what you could?
11:50Tell me about what motivated you then, and your thought process now.
11:57Well, I'm an Israeli patriot, and what took me out of home on October 7th is the same
12:04thing that take me right now out to the streets.
12:08I'm willing to protect the Zionist project, the Zionist dream.
12:16Israel should be and should remain a homeland for all the Jewish people, and at the same
12:20time a free, egalitarian, and democratic state.
12:25Unfortunately, this government endangers the very basic democratic nature of Israel,
12:32the very basic nature and democratic sentiment of the people of Israel, and therefore this
12:38government should be replaced as soon as possible.
12:41We are entering a time of decisiveness, and in a time of decisiveness, we need trusted
12:48leaders and trusted leadership.
12:51I say it again and again and again, but we cannot cope with these emergencies without
13:00the trusted leaders.
13:02So I need to ask you about that, because you have become head of the Labor Party.
13:06So the Labor Party was once one of the great parties.
13:09Your founding prime minister was the head of the Labor Party, but it's really, really
13:15lost almost all its trust by the people, all its position in parliament.
13:21You know, you, I don't know, last election, it got only four seats.
13:26What do you realistically think you can do to revitalize a credible, I guess, left-leaning
13:33opposition, and I assume that you believe in a day after that sees a political solution
13:40and a two-state solution?
13:43Well, the goal is first and foremost to become a much bigger party.
13:49I think that a reasonable goal for the coming elections is about 15 mandates, and with 15
13:56mandates, we can be a prominent element in any future coalition, maybe even lead this
14:03coalition.
14:04We don't know.
14:05It's a matter of, you know, to see the way the political map in Israel will be reorganized
14:12after this government.
14:16And I think that concerning the two-state solution, right now, what is most reasonable
14:22for most Israelis who lost a sense of security is the following.
14:28First, we need to disintegrate ourselves from the Palestinians, from any civilian aspect,
14:35in order to keep a wide and secured path toward the two-state solution.
14:43And at the same time, we need to keep a responsibility for security in our hands.
14:49And I think people around the globe need to understand that.
14:52We have no intention to compromise our security.
14:57People in Israel need to know that they won't be raided by terrorists, by butchers, by people
15:04who want to kill them tomorrow morning, and therefore, without security, we won't be able
15:11to move forward with any political consideration.
15:15As you know, one of the things that makes the American backers very angry and Israel's
15:20allies very angry, and maybe even protesters, I think people like Gadi Eisenkardt and Benny
15:26Gantz left the war cabinet because there was no day-after plan.
15:31So I'm wondering, what would your day-after plan be?
15:35Right now, the latest from one of the extreme right coalition members, Ben Gavir, has been
15:40to say, we need to get back into Gaza in full scale.
15:44We need to encourage all Gazans to emigrate, to get out.
15:50That seems to be a maximalist ethnic cleansing version and an occupation version of the future.
15:58What is your vision for the future of Gaza?
16:02Well, I take, you know, the British doctrine concerning counterinsurgency warfare, and
16:10no doubt that concerning that, on the one hand, we need to fight furiously all militants,
16:16but at the same time, we need to build an alternative, and we are not the alternative.
16:23Israel is not the alternative for the Palestinians, and therefore, we need to figure out how to
16:28consolidate a trusted alternative with our regional allies, with the moderate Muslim
16:35countries, backing by the United States of America, by the EU, by other democratic elements
16:45in the globe, in order to ensure that Gazans will have some sort of a reasonable alternative,
16:55and at the same time, Israel will gain enough security in order to feel safe and secured
17:03in this troubled region.
17:06We won't get rid from all our security problems, but we need to make sure that the future of
17:15the Palestinian arena is positive for Israel, and if it's positive for Israel, it will be
17:22positive also for the Palestinians.
17:25And you know, you may have also been reading this, but there are more and more stories
17:30coming out of Gaza of ordinary Palestinians there expressing real anger at Hamas, real,
17:37you know, blaming them for this terrible situation that they find themselves in, and even before
17:46October 7th, there were protests by Gazans against Hamas for bad governance and all the
17:53other things.
17:54But I need to ask you, because many Israelis have said there's no such thing as a Gazan
17:59civilian, everybody's Hamas, and you yourself were quoted right after October 7th as saying
18:07the following, first of all, close all supplies to Gaza.
18:10I think in this battle, we should not allow a humanitarian effort.
18:14You have to tell them, listen, until the hostages are not released, for all we care, you will
18:19starve to death.
18:21It's completely legitimate.
18:22So that's what you said.
18:23I mean, you're a labor leader, but it's also similar to comments that, you know, the ICC
18:30stated as a reason for seeking arrest warrant against, for instance, Yoav Galant.
18:37Did you mean that then, and do you mean it now?
18:40Well, what was reasonable and even, you know, the right thing to do in the very first days
18:49of the war is irrelevant right now.
18:52And therefore, we need to be realistic and we need to look to the future.
18:58Looking at the future, we need on the one hand say the following, first, we need to
19:05fight Hamas in the most decisive manner as long as it's needed.
19:11And at the same time, we need to provide all Gazan citizens reasonable alternative, positive
19:18alternative that ensure their prosperity and at the same time ensure security for Israel.
19:26I think it's quite simple.
19:28It's hard to implement, but the principle is simple.
19:32And concerning the implementation, we cannot do it alone.
19:37We need to work hard with the Egyptians, with the Saudi Arabia, with the United Emirates,
19:43with other positive elements in the region, of course, with the United States of America
19:48in order to make sure that, yes, for the Gazans, there is a reasonable alternative that we can trust.
19:57It won't happen in days or months.
19:59It's a matter of years.
20:01But we need to move with this process forward in order to secure our citizens.
20:08It's not for them.
20:09It's for us.
20:10And I would like to repeat it.
20:13It's not for them.
20:14It's for us.
20:15And we need to do it in the most decisive, deliberated manner.
20:20So you said that there needs to be an election.
20:22There needs to be a change in Israel.
20:24You said that a change in direction.
20:27Do you, you're talking about a coalition.
20:30Do you think you would, A, try to get a coalition with Benny Gantz and Gedi Eisenkardt and those
20:36members of the opposition?
20:38Is that possible?
20:39And B, how do you come to an election?
20:41Because one is not planned for a couple of years.
20:45Well, let me begin my answer with the second part of the question.
20:52In order to bring elections as soon as possible, we need to be in the streets.
20:56We need to be a million people in the streets every day, every night in order to force this
21:01government to admit that they cannot control, they cannot lead the Israeli people anymore.
21:08And concerning future coalitions, I swear to sit with anyone.
21:16We are, you know, a democracy and we need to legitimize every element in the Israeli
21:26society except those who are totally corrupted like Netanyahu.
21:32We won't sit, and there is no comparison concerning that, with the most messianic, extreme, violent
21:41elements in the government.
21:42So therefore, I have no intention to sit with Ben-Gvir or Smutrych.
21:48And just one quick question because I'm moving on to a guest, a UNICEF guest in Gaza.
21:53There was meant to be a tactical pause for delivering humanitarian aid, but fighting
21:58continues and as such, there hasn't been the ability to, you know, free up more humanitarian aid.
22:07What is your response to that?
22:08Do you think there should be more aid going in?
22:11Well, I think that concerning humanitarian aid, Israel should be extremely generous concerning that.
22:23But at the same time, we need international backing in order to make sure that all aid
22:29that enters the Gaza Strip goes strictly to the hands of civilians, not to the hands of Hamas.
22:39This is a tough business.
22:40This is very complicated.
22:42That needs, you know, the willingness to cope with the Hamas militants inside the Gaza Strip.
22:48Up to now, I don't see any foreign element that want to take responsibility for that.
22:55So we need to work on it with the international arena in a very serious manner.
23:01Yair Golan, thank you very much.
23:04New leader of Israel's Labour Party.
23:06Thank you for being with us.
23:08Now, there are conflicting signals over the strategy in Gaza.
23:13As we said, the military had announced a daily tactical pause in activity along that route
23:17that you can see now in the south to allow aid to be distributed.
23:21But the agencies say, the UN agencies have not seen improvements in aid distribution.
23:26UNRWA is warning that more than 50,000 children in Gaza require treatment for acute malnutrition.
23:33The IDF later clarified that there would be no let-up in fighting in Rafah.
23:38Even in urgent medical cases, many Palestinians are unable to get the attention they need.
23:44Paula Hancox has this report on nine-year-old Hanan facing that painful reality.
23:50And of course, it's difficult to watch, but Hanan's parents want their daughter to be seen.
23:56Hanan Akel had gone out to buy some sweets when the airstrike hit.
24:03I miss seeing mama, she says.
24:05I miss my mama and my sisters.
24:10Nine-year-old Hanan has not been able to open her eyes since the strike ten days ago.
24:15Doctors say she has 20 per cent burns on her face, hands, chest and leg.
24:23One of thousands of patients trapped inside Gaza without hope of the treatment they need.
24:29Her mother says, she tells me I want to play, what have I done to deserve this?
24:34She can't sleep properly because of the pain, her whole body hurts.
24:37Surrounded by war for eight months, this was Hanan just hours before she was hit.
24:43They had been forced to leave their home in Rafah when the Israeli military moved in and
24:47were sheltering in someone's garden in al-Berej.
24:52Hanan says, my sister went to her grandfather and asked for one shackle for her and one
24:56for me.
24:57I went to the shop and was about to pay the man and a missile fell.
25:01I didn't hear the whizzing, I just saw a red light.
25:06Hanan's doctor says she was in critical condition when she arrived.
25:09They removed shrapnel from her face and reconstructed her nose.
25:13He says they now have no choice but to wait to transfer her out of Gaza, hoping her wounds
25:18don't get infected.
25:23Most children need medical transfers, he says, for a more qualified treatment than here.
25:28We don't have the treatment, the tools, we don't have the supplies.
25:36The Rafah crossing has been closed since May 7th when the Israeli military took control.
25:42Egypt says it will not open the crossing until the Israeli military withdraws for security
25:46reasons.
25:47One Egyptian soldier was killed last month in fighting along the border.
25:52Israel says they will not hand over control of the crossing to Palestinian authorities,
25:56fearing Hamas would use the area to smuggle in weapons.
26:00The Rafah crossing should be reopened as quickly as possible or there should be an alternative.
26:06We have no estimation at the moment how many of the patients which should have left actually
26:11have already passed away.
26:15Khaloud Al-Shaki says she was displaced three times while pregnant.
26:19Her baby, Malak, born four days earlier, has a heart defect, spending most of her young
26:23life in an incubator.
26:27The doctors did what was necessary, she says, but they said that she must be transferred
26:31out of Gaza quickly.
26:35She adds, one of the doctors told me not to have high hopes.
26:39That sentence is so difficult to hear.
26:44Malak is not the only baby desperately needing medical treatment outside of Gaza.
26:51Her doctor confirms if these children do not get treatment, they are likely to die.
26:58Ali Darwish has a broken spine, ribs and leg after an airstrike hit his house, killing
27:03his siblings, his aunt says.
27:05Without urgent specialised treatment outside of Gaza, she has been told by doctors he may
27:10be paralysed.
27:11For these children, escaping Gaza may be their only hope of a future.
27:18It's eight months now, Paula Hancock's reporting on the children that are bearing such a heavy
27:23brunt.
27:24My next guest has been in Gaza for a week, his third trip to the enclave, witnessing
27:28the difficulties of delivering aid firsthand.
27:31UNICEF spokesperson James Elder says it took him 13 hours to travel 40 kilometres, spending
27:38eight hours held at checkpoints.
27:39And he joins me now from Rafah itself.
27:42James Elder, welcome to the programme.
27:46Thanks, Christiane.
27:47Can I just ask you, because, you know, the reporting started with this poor child, Hanan,
27:54but also the closure of the Rafah point for just about everything.
27:58We've seen sick and distressed children have been allowed out.
28:03They've gone to hospitals in the UAE, in Qatar, etc.
28:07From where you stand now, is there any question that maybe some of these worst affected children
28:13will be allowed out?
28:16No.
28:17At the moment, I mean, to see Hanan, I just, a hospital a couple of hours ago and another
28:23little boy.
28:24James, we have some audio difficulties, so I would like you to stand by and we're going
28:30to try to call back and get a better audio connection.
28:34In the meantime, we're going to go to another report, but please stand by for several minutes
28:39and we'll try to be back to you.
28:42And so, next, we do go to the black experience in modern day Britain.
28:46Queenie is a new TV series about a Jamaican British woman navigating London life in her
28:52mid-twenties, from struggling with personal relationships to her cultural identity.
28:58Take a look.
29:00Loud, sassy, confrontational.
29:03I can't not be a strong black woman.
29:05A girl's vulnerable.
29:07Is this you?
29:08I can't breathe.
29:10I'm so far from where I was, I don't even recognize myself.
29:13Forgiveness is odd, but I've seen you conquer things that were much harder.
29:18So, the series is based on the bestselling novel by Candice Carty Williams, and she's
29:23joining Michelle Martin now to talk about how the show aims to defy racial stereotypes.
29:30Thanks, Christiane.
29:31Candice Carty Williams, thank you so much for joining us.
29:34Thank you for having me.
29:35You have described Queenie as the black British Bridget Jones.
29:40For people who may not know what that means, just say more about that.
29:43What does that mean?
29:45So, when I was initially talking about the book, I really wanted people to think about
29:49the scale of what the book should be.
29:51And so, where Queenie isn't Bridget Jones, per se, because she is obviously way too
29:55political, I really wanted people to understand that the scale of this book should be the
30:00Bridget Jones scale, and it should be in every household.
30:04People love her so much.
30:05She's so real.
30:07She's regular.
30:09She's messy.
30:11She's a little messy.
30:13She's very smart.
30:16Throw some adjectives out.
30:17Tell us about her.
30:18Who is she?
30:20She's someone who is, I mean, she's often described as a problematic fae, which I really
30:26like, but she's funny, and she's smart, and she's questioning, and she's heartbroken,
30:31and she is kind, and she is inquisitive, and she is someone who is trying to get away
30:38from being strong, I would say.
30:41How did she come to you as a character?
30:44So, I knew that I wanted to write a Black woman who was trying to break free of the
30:49strong Black woman trope, and I was like, that's probably quite easy to do.
30:54She just has to reject everything that's been put onto me and me like me.
30:59And when I was about to write her, so I won a place on a writer's retreat hosted by Jojo
31:04Moyes, the author, and on the way there, I was like, okay, I should think about writing
31:08something, shouldn't I?
31:10And she came to me in sort of bits and pieces and stories I'd heard and things I'd seen
31:16or things that my friends had told me or things I'd seen on the internet or, you know, maybe
31:20a couple of experiences with dating and the like.
31:24And then when I started writing her, this kind of fully formed character emerged, and
31:28I just had to kind of follow wherever she took me, you know?
31:32Look, she's a smart, funny, you know, spicy Black woman, and so are you.
31:38So, obviously, people want to see it as, you know, biography, as memoir, but that's not
31:45the case.
31:47No, no, no, no, no.
31:48And it's so interesting because, you know, if I'd put myself, you know, if I'd written
31:52it for TV and put myself in it, then maybe you could be like, okay, maybe is that you?
31:57But I just kind of wanted to present a fictional character to the world who was, you know,
32:01we might have things in common.
32:03We're both from the same background.
32:04We're both from South London.
32:05We both have Jamaican family.
32:07But, you know, we diverge in a lot of ways.
32:09And actually, I think Issa Rae put it best when she said that she wanted to write a character
32:14who was outside on a Friday night because she was inside on a Friday night.
32:18And I could definitely, definitely relate to that.
32:21You said this in one of the many interviews that you appropriately have done to celebrate
32:26your work.
32:28You said you were desperate for a Black woman that wasn't the sassy sidekick or angry
32:32girlfriend, but was just real and honest.
32:36Say more about that.
32:38You know, the presentations that we had of Black women growing up were always that person.
32:42They were often the sassy best friend, the magical Negro.
32:47They were the angry girlfriend.
32:50And I was like, oh, but what if you're none of those things?
32:52Or like the confident colleague.
32:54And I myself, I'm a relatively shy person.
32:56I remember always thinking I wasn't good enough because I could never match up or be as loud
33:00or confident or stand up for myself.
33:02And I realized that actually, I'm not those things and I won't ever be those things.
33:06And I didn't think I would be alone in those things.
33:09And so I also wanted that, but also I wanted Queenie to be a lead character.
33:13I wanted her not to be someone who comes on the screen every so often.
33:17You only want more of her.
33:19I wanted her to be front and center.
33:20And I wanted her to be surrounded by a cast of people who are equally smart and funny
33:25and interesting and engaging.
33:27So Queenie, of course, started as a novel bestseller and was adapted into this eight
33:34episode series.
33:35It's called a drama series, but it's really kind of more of a dramedy, isn't it?
33:39I mean, I mean, there's lots of laughter, even when she's getting a gynecological exam.
33:46And I must say, I've never envisioned seeing a television show start with that camera angle.
33:56Things I should have done today.
33:57One, had a wax.
33:59Two, not had another dumb argument with Tom.
34:02Three, prepared for my pitch.
34:05How long is this going to take?
34:06I'm afraid it's going to take as long as it needs.
34:09So what do you do?
34:10So very real.
34:11And you're also the executive producer and you're the showrunner.
34:14So you had the opportunity to kind of really shape this project.
34:19When you're adapting the novel, you know it was already very well loved.
34:23And you're adapting it for the screen.
34:25What was your primary consideration?
34:27What was front and center for you?
34:29I think because I was working with three sets of executives.
34:33My thing was protecting Queenie, protecting her world, and protecting the politics of the show.
34:39And I've always, I always wanted Queenie to be bold and political and say what she needed to say.
34:48We just focused on the big names.
34:50Like, yeah, thank you to Mary Seacole for everything you did.
34:53What do you mean?
34:55I just meant that it was nice to see Nanny of the Maroons.
35:00And Althea Jones-LaCointe.
35:02And Jocelyn Barrow.
35:04And even Dawn Butler.
35:07Oh, and Khadija Sey.
35:12I think it's important to break the tradition of what a black woman has always been.
35:15Also to shift the focus away from what she did for white people.
35:19Yeah, but then you know what they say.
35:21Tradition is peer pressure from dead people.
35:24Also, I wanted to have the through line of her family and the trauma and everything that she's gone through.
35:31And so it was about making sure that I could make those things heard.
35:35And yes, dramedy.
35:36I've had this before with Queenie, and it wasn't meant to be.
35:39So I think it just ends up being funny because I feel like we have to be funny if we're going to talk about really difficult things.
35:46Which isn't necessary, but that's definitely the person that I am.
35:48I'm someone who is like, if I'm going to talk about something that's very hard hitting,
35:52I'm going to sort of wrap it up first nicely so we can see your back isn't up.
35:58You know, you've said that Queenie is a thousand times more political than Bridget Jones.
36:03And one of the ways in which I think that was expressed is you see her at work.
36:08So talk a little bit about that.
36:11So Queenie joined the Daily Reader.
36:13It's the Daily Read in the book, but the Daily Reader in the in the in the TV show for reasons of copyright, et cetera.
36:21And she joined as a social media assistant, but her plan was to sort of sneak in and then start writing pieces and changing the world.
36:30And in the novel, she's constantly pitching.
36:32She's constantly pitching about political matters, environmental matters, black matters.
36:36And she's always being shut down.
36:38This is what I'm at the Daily Reader to do.
36:40I'm going to change the world.
36:50But not today.
36:54Hey, keep your head up. You got this.
36:56The new boy makes one good pitch and he's giving me advice.
37:00You're almost there.
37:02But maybe we can work on your delivery.
37:05Queenie, could I grab you for a sec?
37:07And so Queenie in the workplace is somewhere where she is, I guess, in the biggest way,
37:12straddling both cultures, because she has tried to come into this space and she tries to make herself heard.
37:18And she tried to change the world and let everyone know there's stuff going on in your own backyard that you're not seeing and thinking about.
37:24But she's constantly pushed down and told just, you know, stay in your lane effectively.
37:30And it was really important that she was the only black person in the office, as I have often been many times, I think every time.
37:37And so for me writing that, it was thinking about how there are so many black women who are the only black women in the workplace.
37:46And I actually went to South Africa to talk about this book.
37:50And loads of women were like, you're in South Africa, which is, you know, there are black people here, but I'm still that person.
37:55And it really helped me to understand what it felt like.
37:59And so it was really important for me to capture that and to capture that hostility that you feel when you have, you know, a dozen eyes on you that are kind of like, why is she here?
38:08What does she want to do? She's not good enough.
38:10I think one of the things that I think many people will enjoy and feel just really appreciate is the way you lift up her friendships.
38:20Queenie's friendships are very important to her.
38:23I just wanted to talk a little bit about that.
38:25How did this idea come to you and why was it so important?
38:29So it was important for me in this realm of Queenie straddling two worlds to be having work as one world and family as another,
38:36but the intersection of friendship that sits kind of in the middle space and actually the people who know her for who she is,
38:43not the people who are like, OK, well, you're working with me or her family who are like, this is who you need to be.
38:48And I really wanted to show the friends that she has chosen as she has gone through her life.
38:53She has a friend from school, a friend from university, a friend from work.
38:57And they all know kind of the truest sense of her.
39:00And that was really important because I think that without friendships, a lot of us, you know what, you know,
39:05that our friendships make up so much of our identity.
39:08And Chesca is obviously kind of like her best, best friend because that's the person she's known since school.
39:14And then you have Cassandra, who's a little bit frostier and you sort of, you know,
39:18she's the person who sort of tries to steer Queenie in the right direction, even though it doesn't always work.
39:23And you have Darcy, who is very kind and maybe a little bit too kind to her because she can see what Queenie's going through.
39:31But I think that we see ourselves through our friends a lot of the time.
39:34And I wanted Queenie to be able to be telling her problems to her friends.
39:38And then they will kind of come back with their different versions of what she should do and how they see her.
39:44The other thing is that she's, she's, as we meet her,
39:47she's kind of navigating her relationship with her white boyfriend, Tom, and his family.
39:54And I thought that was very, it was funny, but it was also very poignant.
39:57And talk a little bit about that.
40:00Well, you know, we come into the point where Queenie and her boyfriend, Tom,
40:03have been having some problems and she's talked it up to, oh, you know, I've moved house.
40:09You know, I've just got to adjust to living with you.
40:12And then as we get into it, we recognize that what's actually happened is her moving has disrupted this idea of home that she doesn't have a good relationship to in her head.
40:23And we explore that in the series. We understand what home means to her, what relationships mean to her, what abandonment means to her.
40:29And we kind of, we start to understand that things have begun to unravel and that she's not telling her boyfriend what's going on.
40:35And he's had enough. And he's someone who says, you know, we've all got stuff.
40:39But as we understand his stuff isn't Queenie's stuff, you know.
40:42I should have handled that better. He should have handled that better.
40:46There you go.
40:47Oh, jeez. You scared me.
40:51What's going on with you?
40:53What your gran said wasn't OK. You know that, right?
40:56And you know it's not OK to tell my gran that she's dead by the time we have kids, right?
41:00She's from a different generation, Queenie.
41:02Fine, but you're not. This is what I'm saying.
41:04OK, listen, listen. I don't want to get into this. OK? It's late. I've been drinking.
41:08There's always a reason that you're not on my side, Tom. I mean, what happens?
41:11I can't always be on your side, Queenie, OK? Because I can't always be angry.
41:15Always angry.
41:17And so they, you know, they go on what Queenie thinks is a break.
41:22And she does a lot of things to distract her that are not very good for her.
41:25But in the back of her mind, she has this idea of the relationship and it resuming again and everything being OK again.
41:31But actually what she needs to think about is her relationship to herself rather than with anyone else, obviously.
41:37I think people who have been in relationships with people of different backgrounds,
41:42they will relate to some of these kind of frictions, you know, his family and some of the ridiculous things that sometimes people say, you know.
41:50I have to admit, they will be lovely. Color of milky coffee.
41:56And if we're in luck, they'll have your eyes, Queenie, which are just gorgeous, all those lashes.
42:01But they'd get Tom's lovely straight nose.
42:07But I think you're also really honest about some of the stuff she's bringing to it.
42:10You could have sort of made her a saint. You didn't.
42:14I was curious about her, her own immaturity.
42:17I mean, she could have figured out like how to communicate better to tell him from, you know, what's going on with her.
42:24She doesn't. I was I was really curious about that choice.
42:28You know, I think the thing is, Queenie's 25.
42:31And I meet so many women who want her to navigate her problems properly.
42:35They want her to take a break. They want her to go to therapy sooner.
42:39They want her to not sleep around and they want to sort of answer all the questions that you're answering.
42:44But I'm always like she's 25 years old and that's a lot to put on a 25 year old's head.
42:49She's doing everything for the first time. This is her first relationship.
42:52This is her first big breakup. This is her first time moving, moving house and living with someone.
42:58This is her first time, you know, sleeping around with people and she's making mistakes.
43:03And, you know, if we met her when she was in her 30s, it would be a very different Queenie.
43:07She would be knowing what to do. She would know how to do it. What's best for her.
43:11But in this instance, I really wanted to paint her as a human person who we are following as she kind of figures things out for the first time.
43:21You know, it's really important that she wasn't someone who had all the answers because then where would we go?
43:27I know that one of the things that I think you've said in this conversation and others is that the work itself, creating these characters, presenting them in their fullness is its own message.
43:38But apart from that, is there any other message that you hope people will draw from the novel and from the series?
43:46I think one of the most important things about Queenie is that she's trying her best.
43:51I do think there is something to be said for, you know, when I wrote this novel, I was trying my best.
43:56When I wrote Champion, People Person, Queenie for the Screen, you just try your best.
44:01And I think that's all you can do. You know, life is, life will throw things at you.
44:05But as long as you try your best, you'll be OK.
44:07Gosh, it's been a delight to speak with you. What is next for you?
44:11So A Big Rest is next for me, just because I've been writing, as I said, every day for about eight years.
44:18But also writing another novel, which is really nice.
44:21So kind of going back to my roots. So there are a few people who want to develop a few projects.
44:27I've just got to figure out the right thing to do.
44:31But it's been a really good time just kind of coming out of this and sort of having time for myself again.
44:38Yeah, but I like to spend time with my family and spend time with my friends.
44:42So it's been nice to catch up with them. And it's my birthday soon, so I can throw a big party and see everyone.
44:47That's right. Well, happy birthday. Happy almost birthday.
44:51Congratulations on everything. Candice, Cardi Williams, thank you so much for speaking with us.
44:56Thank you so much for having me.
44:59Queenie the series. And let's return now to our top story, Israel's war in Gaza,
45:05and bring back in James Elder, the UNICEF spokesperson who's standing by in Rafa for us.
45:10James, I'm glad you're back. And I hope we have a better audio condition because I want to ask you,
45:16you've been in Rafa in Gaza for about a week now.
45:20Just in general, what have you seen and how does it compare to what you saw when you were there last?
45:30It's utterly dire, Christiane. It shouldn't be surprising how much worse things are now,
45:35because, of course, I haven't been here for two months.
45:38And in the last two months, it's been that relentless bombardment, a ferocious bombardment.
45:43I thought I understood what the bombs were like.
45:46The proximity is such that it's like someone banging pots next to your head.
45:50The drones, the attack drones are like a lawnmower.
45:53This is every day for 250 days.
45:56When I was in Al-Aqsa Hospital on Tuesday, Christiane, with doctors walking over children missing limbs,
46:02with horrendous burns like we saw earlier in your program,
46:05children who urgently need medical attention outside but cannot get it.
46:09And if they cannot get it, they will die.
46:11And at the same time, we will have more bombardments tonight.
46:14On top of that, these last two months, continual restrictions and denials of aid,
46:19meaning you have a nutritional crisis on the ground, a lethal lack of water,
46:23one or two litres per day, a shower every two weeks,
46:26grandmothers and teenage girls, Christiane, queuing up all day for a shower.
46:32So we've had two more months of that.
46:34So the physical and psychological capacity of people has been smashed
46:39and they are just holding on.
46:41And I mean just holding on.
46:43Yes, there is hope.
46:44Gazans are amazingly resilient.
46:45There is a spirit I've not seen before.
46:48But I've also had far too many young people say to me, Christiane,
46:51that they don't mind if a missile hits their tent, they're done.
46:54And that is harrowing, but that is indicative of just how bad things are here
46:59after 250 days of this.
47:02Wow, it's horrible to hear children saying something as awful as that
47:07and as final as that.
47:10I don't know whether you heard our first guest talking about aid
47:14and needing to get aid into Gaza.
47:17And you know about the government having, or somebody in Israel,
47:21having called for a tactical pause and then the prime minister saying
47:24he didn't know anything about it.
47:25And no, they're not letting up in their fighting.
47:30What is coming in, if anything?
47:36Yes, not nearly enough.
47:37And it's so important.
47:38It's such a good question.
47:39We have to go beyond statements.
47:41We must look at evidence on the ground.
47:43Enough of this he said, she said.
47:45We must look at the simple facts on the ground.
47:47And if we look at a few things, many less crossings open than previously.
47:51So areas in the north that they advocated for is closed.
47:53Rafa, Christiane, the lifeline for humanitarian aid has not been open
47:58since that offensive started in on the 7th of, 6th or 7th of May.
48:02Remembering that was a so-called limited offensive.
48:04That limited offensive, quote-unquote, has led to a million more people
48:08having to leave.
48:09Go from their homes onto rubble and then pick up their tents from rubble
48:13and leave somewhere else.
48:14So that humanitarian crossing is shut.
48:18Even when we seek to get aid in, the key thing to remember is it's not
48:22just about getting it in.
48:23And there's far too little coming in.
48:25That's why we have an unprecedented nutrition crisis for the youngest
48:29children in Gaza.
48:30It's about a safe place, an enabling way to deliver that aid,
48:34to go north to south.
48:35And that remains the responsibility of the occupying power of Israel.
48:40And there is a reason why we have such shortages of water, of medicines,
48:43of food, of all the things that people need.
48:46I've seen denials of so many things.
48:48Christiane, I've had a woman outside a hospital a few days ago come to me
48:54in tears.
48:55Her husband, a missile had hit their home.
48:57Her husband had been killed.
48:58She had her two children in tears just asking for a tent.
49:01This denial of dignity.
49:03We have just gone so far beyond and it's so wildly disconcerting that still
49:08people somehow justify, excuse away the killing of so, so many children.
49:16James, Yair Golan, the new head of the Labour Party,
49:19along with other Israeli officials, have basically said, you know,
49:23there just isn't the you.
49:25There aren't the internationals to be able to safely and properly
49:29and efficiently distribute aid.
49:31They're pushing it all up to the border, but you guys aren't able to do it.
49:35You guys say, you know, well, that's not the case because here we are
49:39and we're not actually getting the aid in and so much is being turned back.
49:43What are the actual facts?
49:45I mean, if aid was coming in,
49:47do you have even the infrastructure to deliver it?
49:54So, yes, exactly the facts.
49:56Thank you, Christiane.
49:57So in May, the United Nations got half the number of trucks in from April,
50:02already when we are dealing with children with an imminent famine
50:06from the most respected nutrition body on the planet.
50:08So half the number of trucks.
50:10There are less crossings now than several months ago.
50:13Erez in the north, Rafa here.
50:15The pier is no longer functional.
50:17So they are the facts.
50:18When aid comes in, yes, absolutely.
50:20I have incredibly brave colleagues from UNRWA,
50:22the backbone of the United Nations, UNICEF with our nutrition,
50:25our water, our medicines.
50:27I've been on those missions that have been denied
50:30and seen horrendous acts on those missions.
50:32So, yes, we have the capacity.
50:34Granted, it is a very dangerous place to work.
50:36We've seen more United Nations colleagues killed in the last eight months
50:40than in any war since the advent of the United Nations.
50:43But, no, we are absolutely ready to.
50:45But we have now seen scores and scores, not a handful,
50:48scores and scores of denials and restrictions and delays.
50:52That is the reality.
50:53That is what we are combating.
50:55And we want to move away from a war of words with simple facts.
50:58And we are absolutely ready to deliver.
51:00And we will continue to do that.
51:02But those restrictions are very real.
51:04And those restrictions are costing lives.
51:07And, James, you know that the Israelis really believe
51:12that Hamas is essentially contaminating the aid distribution process,
51:18that they're stealing what might come in for their own militants,
51:23their own fighters.
51:24I wonder whether, A, you have any knowledge of that,
51:27B, whether you're hearing what we seem to be hearing now,
51:31that more and more Palestinians inside Gaza
51:34are expressing anger at Hamas for, you know, eight months now.
51:39And they've basically had it, as you know.
51:43Can I just play for you?
51:44I hope you can hear it over the line.
51:46A bit of a conversation between our correspondent, Ben Wiedemann,
51:49and Osama Hamdan, a senior Hamas official.
51:53They spoke in Beirut a few days ago.
51:56Hamas is an organization.
51:58Does it regret what it did on the 7th of October,
52:01given what happened afterwards?
52:03We are living with this for the last 75 years as Palestinians.
52:0637,000 people dead.
52:08Well, we are talking about 3,000 Palestinians
52:11who were killed in the first intifada.
52:13We are talking about more than 7,000 Palestinians
52:16who were killed from 2001 to 2004.
52:20I think the real start is to make an end for the occupation.
52:24If that happened, I think this will be the right step or the right move.
52:30They kind of appear to be willing to let this death toll mount
52:35so that they achieve their political goals.
52:38What do you make of that?
52:44Look, it's so troubling to think that people can move away
52:49from the most obvious thing, a ceasefire.
52:51It's the only thing people hold on to here, hold on to this hope.
52:54As a woman, many people have said to me,
52:56Christiane, words to the effect of,
52:58I've had my husband killed, I've lost a child, I've lost my home,
53:01I've lost the ability to look after my remaining children.
53:04All I have left is hope.
53:06It seems that those, the powers who have the ability
53:09to make a ceasefire happen, in whatever capacity that looks like,
53:13are so disconcertingly removed from the suffering of thousands here.
53:17So whatever the military aims are,
53:19and UNICEF, the reason we are a frontline organisation,
53:22as you know, Christiane, from here to Yemen to Ukraine,
53:25is our impartiality.
53:27But whatever the military aims are here of these warring parties,
53:31it is clear, as UNICEF has said for many months,
53:34that this is a war on children.
53:36Now, we do not say that for a headline.
53:38We say that, again, because of evidence.
53:40We say that because when we look at how war affects children,
53:44again, from Yemen to Afghanistan to Syria, and the toll it takes,
53:48here we have seen a disproportionate number of children killed
53:52and maimed to any other conflict.
53:54Now, yes, that speaks to the density of children.
53:56Yes, that speaks to the number of children.
53:58But it also very much speaks to the indiscriminate nature
54:02of these attacks.
54:03And when we look at a numbers game,
54:05I don't know what number is too many when it comes to children.
54:08But I have certainly seen far too many parents
54:10whose lives will never be the same because their child is dead.
54:13I never thought, Christiane, I would hear a child say
54:17that they'd lost their mum and their dad and their brothers
54:19and their sisters and their grandparents.
54:21I've now heard that so many times it's no longer rare.
54:25And the psychological torment now for those children...
54:29We're in uncharted territory.
54:31So, yes, those who have the power to make these decisions
54:35need to understand the suffering of civilians on the ground.
54:39And I think, yes, civilians on the ground
54:41would very much like those in power to understand their situation.
54:45And as someone said to me a few hours ago,
54:47we just need to breathe.
54:49Well, everybody needs to see this war end.
54:52James Elder, thank you so much indeed.
54:55And finally, another war.
54:57We fight in the war, we fight on the pitch.
55:00That's what one Ukrainian supporter said
55:02ahead of the national team's Euros match against Romania.
55:06Although Ukraine just lost 3-0 in Munich's football arena,
55:10before the game, the team's manager said
55:12it was a chance to showcase the Ukrainian spirit
55:16as the war rages back home.
55:18Damaged blue and yellow seats from Kharkiv Stadium
55:21are on display as a stark reminder of the conflict.
55:25They had been built when Ukraine hosted the 2012 Euros,
55:28but since, they've been destroyed by Russian missiles.
55:31That is it for now. Thank you for watching,
55:33and goodbye from London.