Mike Valerio reports on Vladimir Putin’s visit to North Korea. Former CIA senior analyst Sue Mi Terry dives deeper into what the relationship between Russia and North Korea means for global politics. In honor of Juneteenth, Equal Justice Initiative director Bryan Stevenson talks about the ongoing fight for racial justice. Chef Bryant Terry celebrates the past and future of Black American food.
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amman Porn Company. Here's what's coming up.
00:10Both countries denounce politically motivated sanctions and restrictions, which only destabilize
00:15the global political and economic system.
00:17A meeting of despots and an anti-West axis. Analysis as Putin and Kim strike a defense
00:24deal. Then-
00:25And I continue to believe that there is something that feels more like freedom, more like equality,
00:32more like justice, and I think it's waiting for us.
00:34Juneteenth. As America celebrates the end of slavery, the ongoing struggle for racial
00:39justice. Christiane speaks to civil rights lawyer and activist Bryan Stevenson. Plus-
00:46We know that food has always played a central role in cultural expression, community building,
00:50and survival.
00:51The evolution and diversity of African-American cuisine with the award-winning chef, Bryan
00:57Terry.
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01:57Hello, everyone. Welcome to the program. I'm Bianna Goldriga in New York, sitting in for
02:02Christiane Amanpour. A pact between dictators. Vladimir Putin has wrapped up his trip to
02:07North Korea, where he was greeted with much fanfare. There, he signed a comprehensive
02:12defense deal with Kim Jong-un. Speaking after lengthy talks, Putin did not rule out, quote,
02:17the provision of mutual assistance in the event of aggression against one of the parties
02:22to this agreement. Here's the Russian president.
02:26Today, we held substantive negotiations on a whole range of practical cooperation. This
02:32includes political, trade, investment, cultural spheres, and the security sphere as well.
02:38I agree that this is truly a breakthrough document reflecting the desire of both countries
02:43not to stop at their achievements, but to raise our achievements at a qualitative new
02:48level.
02:51Kim said the eyes of the world were on Pyongyang, stating, I stand with Russian comrades vowing
02:56his full support for Putin's illegal war in Ukraine. And Putin certainly wants arms from
03:01North Korea. The question is what he is willing to give in return. And what is this strengthening
03:07of an anti-West axis mean for America and its allies?
03:12First let's bring in correspondent Mike Valerio from Seoul in South Korea for more on this
03:16visit. Mike, I'm going to ask you about how this was all viewed from Seoul in just a minute.
03:21But first, lay out what we saw the first time that Russian President Putin visited Pyongyang
03:26in 24 years. A lot of pomp in these past 48 hours.
03:34Sure, absolutely, Bjarne. I think really there was an indelible image and an indelible policy
03:39moment that followed a couple hours after that pomp and circumstance really started
03:43to play out in the central square, Kim Il-sung square of Pyongyang that could hold 100,000
03:48people. So the indelible image is really conveying that these two leaders of sanctioned countries,
03:56countries that are under heavy UN and Western sanctions, can go their own way, survive on
04:01their own. And we're talking about Kim Jong-un, Vladimir Putin, in an open air, sleek, black
04:08limo to the throngs of thousands of people watching in Kim Il-sung square, trying to
04:14project this image that, yep, you know what? We got this. We're standing stronger together
04:20and we can go our own way as equal partners in this new alliance that Kim Jong-un used
04:28that pointed word of alliance later on in the day when this meeting was all said and
04:34done. So that is the visual that we have here. And then they go and meet behind closed doors
04:39for about three and a half hours. And Vladimir Putin comes out, Bjarne, and says, you know,
04:44we've made progress on economic, trade, people-to-people issues, but we also have made progress in the
04:52sphere of mutual defense, saying that there is a provision of mutual assistance in the
04:59event of aggression. So we're all standing here as observers and people in diplomatic
05:04quarters saying, OK, what exactly does that mean? Mutual assistance in moments of aggression?
05:10And, of course, we have a 1961 treaty, no longer in effect, clearly, between the USSR
05:16and North Korea, signed by Kim Il-sung and Khrushchev in July 1st of 1961, saying that
05:24if either country was to come under attack, that both would have immediate military assistance.
05:32The language here does not seem to be as strong, but we don't have the full text of this agreement.
05:39And perhaps, Bjarne, that is the point, to be incredibly vague about this, to shake things
05:45up, creating, you know, a path to this new world order that Russia wants to shape, to
05:52counter the existing rules-based, laws-based order that the United States and the West
05:57are the vanguards of. So that's where we find ourselves right now.
06:01We're going to watch this space, because there is supposedly another meeting, summit of some
06:07sort in a similar vein, happening in Moscow in the not-too-distant future. But, you know,
06:12the ramifications, the implications here are, will we start to see military drills,
06:20military cooperation, as you mentioned in the introduction to this segment, between
06:24Russia and North Korea, perhaps drills near some of these disputed islands on the border
06:29of North and South Korea? So this is just the first chapter of this new, closer relationship,
06:35Bjarne.
06:36And how is this all being consumed in South Korea, Mike, where we've seen an increase
06:41in provocations via balloons between these two sides? South Korea had been sending balloons
06:47into the North with anti-North Korea leaflets. And then, in response, we saw South Korea,
06:54North Korea, over the past few weeks, sending garbage-filled balloons, about a thousand
06:59of them, to the South.
07:01You know, I think that people are over the balloons. You know, don't even get me started
07:07on that subject. But I think when we're talking about the diplomacy and Russia entering the
07:12chat of this conversation, it's being met with deep concern. That is the exact verbiage
07:18that South Korean security officials are lending to this topic of conversation when they were
07:23meeting with their Chinese counterparts yesterday to discuss their collective security concerns
07:29that affects both China and South Korea.
07:31So, you know, interestingly enough, we have President Yoon Suk-gil, who was asked at a
07:36May 9th news conference what he would do, how he would feel if Vladimir Putin visited
07:42Pyongyang and had this bromance moment with North Korea's leader, Kim Jong-un. And he
07:47was very careful. He said that South Korea actually, in the relative scheme of things,
07:51has pretty good relations with Russia. And Russia, in fact, says that of all the not
07:58so friendly nations, South Korea is one of the best. South Korea notably is not sending
08:04lethal munitions to Ukraine. Vladimir Putin went out of his way last week to say, to make
08:11it known that he appreciates South Korea not sending those lethal munitions.
08:15So, long story long, Yoon Suk-gil, the president here in South Korea, is trying to walk a
08:19fine line. He's saying that a lot of these Russian moves are making him uncomfortable.
08:23They're going to try to work with Russia in areas where they can cooperate. So, a lot of
08:28deep concern, a lot of tightrope walking. We're waiting for the dust to settle, for perhaps
08:34some more clarity on whether or not this is a new autocratic version of NATO Article 5.
08:39And we're just going to have to wait over the next 24 hours how this is officially received.
08:44All right, Mike Valerio and Sol Forrest, thanks for joining us and making clear that we are
08:48over Balloon Gate there. For a deeper dive now on the ramifications of the strategic
08:53partnership, let's bring in Sumi Terry. She worked on the issue of North Korea within
08:57the U.S. government, first for the CIA and then for the National Security Council.
09:02And she's now a senior fellow for Korea Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations.
09:07Sumi Terry, thank you so much for joining us. First, just your response to this visit.
09:12In some sense, a historic one, given that it's been 24 years since Vladimir Putin has
09:17visited the hermit state. And yet, we have no readout of what this mutual defense pledge
09:24really entails. There have been several past iterations of a similar type of pledge, the
09:30most recent in 2000. And that one, the only clause was that they would be calling each
09:36other and contacting each other in certain emergency situations. Talk about what you
09:42make of what we saw signed today.
09:45I think this new treaty is significant. Putin visiting North Korea is significant.
09:52This burgeoning military alliance between Russia and North Korea is significant.
09:58This shows that Putin is very desperate and he has now abandoned all hopes or any kind
10:05of, you know, if there's no more joining the West and wants to go out of his way to
10:11make sure that the U.S.-led international order collapses. It's a very concerning
10:18development. We've had North Koreans sending munitions, artillery shells, and other
10:24military equipment for Russia's war effort in Ukraine. We have some 10,000 containers
10:31of equipment that the North Koreans have sent to Russia. But the key question always
10:37was how much is Putin able in terms of helping North Korea? What was he going to do?
10:46Was he going to help North Korea with military sensitive technologies that's going to
10:51help North Korea's WMD program? And now with this security clause, it's now very
10:58concerning that their relationship is no longer just a marriage of convenience for a
11:05little bit where Putin is just relying on some equipment coming to Ukraine. Now they're
11:11bigger concerned in terms of how much Russia can help North Korea and North Korea's
11:17WMD program.
11:19Yeah, it does appear that Vladimir Putin has crossed the Rubicon here in trying to
11:22rehabilitate himself ever on the global stage years to come whenever the war with
11:26Ukraine does end, given this new alliance with North Korea. As you mentioned, some
11:3110,000 containers of munitions have been transferred already, ballistic missiles also.
11:36And as you note, the real concern here is, yes, that is a short-term benefit for
11:40Vladimir Putin now on the battlefield. But longer term, do you think at this point, at
11:46this stage, Vladimir Putin is willing to transfer technological insight and know-how to
11:54North Korea? North Korea right now is in the process of developing hypersonic missiles as
11:59well. That's something that Russia has already boasted of achieving before. Is this
12:05something that should be concerning for Washington?
12:08I think the Washington, the Biden administration is very concerned about this, as is
12:14the South Korean government, the Yoon So-kyung administration. You know, there are
12:18some questions about how much really can, you know, what Putin was willing to do.
12:23And there are some arguments against that, right? The munitions, the artillery shells
12:28that North Korea is providing Russia are archaic. They're not most sophisticated kind
12:33of shells. So is Putin really willing to, you know, go as far as providing military
12:39technology, sensitive technologies to North Korea in return for this? But it's
12:44increasingly looks like he's desperate. And so we cannot rule it out. And if you
12:50remember, if you recall, after Kim Jong-un visited Russia and met with Putin in
12:55September of last year, only two months later, North Korea successfully launched a
13:00satellite when North Korea failed to do so the previous two times in the past year.
13:06So even if Russians did not directly help with technology, they were certainly
13:11involved in terms of giving guidance and advice and sharing their know-how.
13:16So this is definitely a concern. I think it was intentional that the Russians and
13:21North Koreans have not explicitly stated exactly what kind of help and aid that
13:27they're talking about or transfer of technology. But Putin himself said it's, you
13:33know, they will share military technology. I think that was his phrase.
13:38The question is how sensitive, what kind of sensitive technology. But it is
13:42definitely a concern. And I'm sure the Biden administration is, you know, this is
13:47one of the top concerns right now.
13:49Yeah. And Putin's aerospace chief accompanied him on this visit, as did his
13:54energy minister as well. I'm curious, Sumi, what does China feel about this visit?
14:02How closely is Beijing watching? Because there wasn't, there was a time not so
14:07long ago where not only China but Russia, too, was working with the United States
14:12hoping to contain North Korea to some degree in their nuclear program.
14:17Obviously, things have changed drastically here. But how is China watching all of
14:22this and interpreting it?
14:24China is watching this very warily. They have, they're very conflicted about this.
14:31There is also loose alignment between China, Russia, North Korea, and even Iran.
14:36But from China's perspective, on one hand, it's OK for North Korea to get some
14:42economic aid and so on from Russia because China is literally the only remaining
14:48patron. Ninety percent of North Korea's trade is with China. So it could use, you
14:53know, Russia could help North Korea, stabilize North Korea, and help bring it up
14:58economically. And because definitely China does not want instability of the Korean
15:02Peninsula or collapse of the Kim regime. But China is definitely concerned about
15:07this burgeoning military alliance between Russia and North Korea. And it's not in
15:13China's interest for North Korea to really advance their WMD capability and perfect
15:19their weapons because look what's happening in the region. Right now we have
15:23South Korea, Japan, United States strengthening their trilateral relationship.
15:27Right? South Korea and Japan had always historically had very difficult and
15:31troubled relationship. But right now they're working very closely together. The
15:35Yoon Sung-kyo administration, the Kishida administration, and the Biden
15:38administration. And from China's perspective, that's also not a good development.
15:43So I think there's, it's a very complicated mixed picture. China and North Korea
15:47relationship itself is complicated. Even though China is North Korea's main ally
15:52and patron, it's not like there's a love affair there either. There is a lot of
15:57suspicion and mutual distrust. So I think it's a very complicated picture for China
16:02and they're watching it very, very closely.
16:04As you noted, Seoul is watching this closely as well. It was just last year that a
16:07new nuclear deterrence agreement was signed between Seoul and the Biden
16:13administration. So South Korea, not for lack of technology, but has not pursued
16:20a nuclear weapons program. Are they going to be thinking twice about that and
16:25questioning real security promises from the United States if we do see further
16:31development and alignment between Russia and North Korea on this front?
16:38You're absolutely right. There's already been a talk, increasing talk, about
16:43whether South Korea need to develop their nuclear weapons too, or at least bring
16:47tactical nuclear weapons back to South Korea. There are conservatives, there are
16:51hawks, there are people who are very concerned about that because North Korea's
16:55WMD threat has been growing in the past few years. Ever since the collapse of the
16:59Hanoi summit, North Korea has not been interested in returning to dialogue and
17:03they've been advancing, modernizing, diversifying their missile capability and so on.
17:08Now you add this development between Russia and North Korea and now let's add
17:13another development in November this year, there's a presidential election in the
17:17United States. And if we have a different president, South Koreans are very
17:22concerned. Former President Trump often talked about the need to have U.S. forces in
17:28South Korea or need to reduce our troop presence in South Korea, it's too expensive
17:32to keep them there, and so on. He made over 120 times since his 1990 Playboy
17:38interview when he talked about potentially reducing troops or our troop presence in
17:43South Korea. So I think South Koreans are very nervous for a whole host of reasons
17:48and it has to be in the back of their mind. Even though they say for now that they're
17:54not going to pursue their own nuclear weapons capability, this is something that has
17:59to be on the table for the South Korean government.
18:01This is a common thing we hear now obviously in Asia, we focus a lot about this same
18:06concern about trying to Trump-proof U.S. policy with regards to alliances in NATO,
18:13specifically as it relates to Ukraine as well. You brought up Donald Trump, I want to
18:17play sound from you from his national security advisor who spoke with Christian yesterday
18:23who was really promoting the strength that Trump brought to this issue in his view
18:29and sitting down with Kim Jong-un, viewing that as a positive. Here's what he said.
18:35They changed tacks and then we had some causal diplomacy with them. And keep in mind
18:40they promised to denuclearize, they promised to end their nuclear program on the peninsula.
18:45Now that did in fact end up happening and President Trump had to walk away from the
18:48Hanoi summit when Kim Jong-un tried to go back on that deal, so we didn't have much
18:54progress after that. But keep in mind there was no nuclear testing during the entire
18:58Trump administration because we showed strength coupled with some tough diplomacy.
19:05What do you make of his comments?
19:07I would say the Trump administration showed strength in 2017 when he was pursuing
19:12maximum pressure policy and we actually got China and Russia to implement sanctions in 2017.
19:18But North Korea never agreed to denuclearize. They talked about the Singapore summit,
19:23this aspirational statement where North Korea said they will work towards denuclearization
19:28of the Korean peninsula. They're also talking about South Korea too, not giving up their
19:32nuclear program. In any case, the whole thing fell apart. They were wildly misunderstanding
19:41each other when they showed up at the Hanoi summit. Remember that whole thing fell apart.
19:45There was no deal to be had and since then North Korea has been just advancing their program.
19:52And now 2024 is not 2017 where we pursued maximum pressure policy. It's not even 2018
19:59with summitary and diplomacy. It's a very different era, different period. External
20:04environment now, this whole geopolitical environment is favorable for North Korea because
20:09China, Russia, they're not helping the United States certainly curb North Korea's WMD program.
20:16And Russia, by the way, just even recently, even China and Russia, they couldn't even
20:21condemn intercontinental ballistic missile launch at the United Nations. So now we have
20:25a complete impasse at United Nations as well. So this geopolitical environment is very
20:30concerning for all of us, obviously.
20:35Sumi Terry, thank you so much for joining the program. We really appreciate your expertise.
20:40Thank you for having me.
20:43Turning now to the United States where people are celebrating Juneteenth, a day marking
20:47the end of slavery. And while it's ultimately a time of celebration, it also gives us a
20:53chance to reflect on the ongoing fight for racial justice and equality in this country.
20:58Christian sat down with acclaimed civil rights lawyer and activist Brian Stevenson. He's
21:02the founder and executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative. And he joined Christian
21:07from Montgomery, Alabama.
21:09Brian Stevenson, welcome back to the program.
21:11It's great to be with you.
21:13So on this day, I just want to ask you the significance of where you are because you've
21:18created a lot of important space, public memorial. Where are you now? What does it mean?
21:25Well, I'm in Montgomery, Alabama at the original Legacy Museum, which is a space we created
21:31in 2018 to honor and acknowledge the legacy of slavery. This space I'm in is on the site
21:41of a warehouse where enslaved people were held before they would be taken up the street
21:47and sold in auctions. And I do think it's been great to have Juneteenth help us begin
21:54to reckon with this long history that has so profoundly shaped America.
22:00I see Juneteenth as sitting between two other American holidays, Memorial Day and Independence Day.
22:07And for me, Juneteenth is an opportunity to remember and honor the 10 million black people
22:14who were enslaved in this country between 1619 and 1865 and to also celebrate the emancipation
22:23of four million people who finally won freedom following the Civil War.
22:28There's so much we have to reckon with about this history that we really haven't done
22:33in the United States. And so I'm thrilled to have spaces like this to help begin that process.
22:37And just tell us and lay it out for those who might not know, particularly for our international audience.
22:42What is the significance of Juneteenth and the fact that enslaved people were still enslaved
22:49even after the end of the Civil War in Texas?
22:55Sure. So in 1863, Abraham Lincoln announced the Emancipation Proclamation,
23:03which freed enslaved people in the United States, but only in the rebelling states of the Confederacy.
23:10And of course, because these states were at war with the United States,
23:15most of the four million people who were impacted by the Emancipation Proclamation
23:20didn't actually get free. They were behind enemy lines.
23:24They were still captive by those trying to preserve slavery.
23:28After the Civil War, the Emancipation Proclamation should have taken effect all over the country.
23:35The passage of the 13th Amendment further confined that, but there were still places in this country
23:41where enslavers refused to tell enslaved people that they were free.
23:48When federal troops got to Texas, the word finally got out and people celebrated their freedom,
23:54even though it was months after the war had ended and almost two years after
24:00the Emancipation Proclamation had been declared.
24:03The term Juneteenth became a way of celebrating that belated announcement,
24:08that delayed announcement of freedom.
24:11And I think in the African-American community, it has become a day of remembrance for emancipation,
24:16not just for those who got the word late in Texas, but for all of the nearly four million people
24:22who had been held in bondage, who had suffered in these forced labor camps,
24:26who had been constrained and abused by slavery, to now finally have an opportunity
24:32to move towards something that could be identified as freedom.
24:37And of course, it was only after the murder of George Floyd that the government
24:43then finally created Juneteenth as a federal holiday, right?
24:47But I want to bring back or refer back to what you just said.
24:50You know, you see it in the pantheon of great American national holidays.
24:54Can I just read to you what Jelani Cobb wrote in The New Yorker?
25:00He's, of course, now the dean of the Columbia Journalism School.
25:04But he wrote, Juneteenth exists as a counterpoint to the Fourth of July.
25:09The latter heralds the arrival of American ideals,
25:12and the former stresses just how hard it has been to live up to them.
25:17What do you make of that?
25:19Is he right, and therefore, is Juneteenth something to celebrate or still be troubled by?
25:24I actually think it is a time to reflect on the tragic and painful history of slavery in America.
25:32We had 246 years in this country where people were held in bondage.
25:37They were subjected to unbelievable abuse and degradation.
25:41We created narratives about enslaved black people
25:45where we said that black people aren't as good as white people.
25:48We created a narrative of racial hierarchy in this country that was defined by slavery.
25:53Slavery in the United States was a permanent hereditary condition,
25:58and that's something to mourn.
26:00Six million black people died enslaved.
26:03They never had the opportunity to be free like other immigrants that came to this country.
26:08That's something to mourn.
26:10The abuse, the selling of half of all enslaved people from their families,
26:14the sexual violence, the humiliation, the horrific physical violence,
26:20all of that is something to mourn.
26:22But emancipation was something to celebrate.
26:25That four million people persevered despite the hardship of slavery.
26:29That four million people found faith and joy in the midst of so much agony
26:36is an incredible legacy.
26:38And then the most important thing is that enslaved people in this country
26:42learned to love in the midst of sorrow,
26:45and despite the horrors of enslavement, created generations of family and kinship.
26:51I'm the descendant of enslaved people.
26:53I would not be here if my great-grandparents hadn't found a way to love
26:57despite all of the horrors of slavery and create a new generation.
27:01And we are the heirs of, yes, a lot of that trauma and abuse and degradation,
27:05but we also are the heirs of people who learned to persevere,
27:09people who were resilient, people who found a way to resist,
27:12people who knew their humanity and their dignity despite what the law said about them.
27:17And that is something to celebrate.
27:20The strength and power of enslaved people, I feel, empowers me, energizes me.
27:25And I think both of those realities can be contained within this holiday,
27:29the grief, the mourning of people who were treated horrifically,
27:32abused and denied freedom, but also the power,
27:37the capacity of people to love despite all of those hurdles.
27:40That's something to celebrate.
27:42So let's talk a little bit about more hurdles that seem to be, I mean,
27:46just rushing to get put up by the Supreme Court votes,
27:50by, you know, certainly under the Trump administration.
27:53So if Congress won't pass voting rights legislation,
27:56Supreme Court won't uphold current laws,
27:59well, obviously there's been progress, but there seems to be so much pushback.
28:03No, you're absolutely right.
28:05We are still in the middle of a really important narrative struggle in the United States
28:10for what it means to actually achieve freedom.
28:13And I do think the historical context is important.
28:16After emancipation, our Congress passed the 14th Amendment,
28:20which guaranteed equal protection to formerly enslaved people.
28:23They passed the 15th Amendment, which guaranteed the right to vote.
28:27But those rights were not enforced because we were more committed in America
28:32to maintaining racial hierarchy,
28:34to maintaining white supremacy than enforcing the rule of law.
28:37And so we've known for a very long time that law alone will not achieve the kind of justice,
28:43the kind of equality that we seek in this country.
28:46It took 100 years between the late 1860s until that horrific and challenging
28:53but triumphant struggle in the 1960s to create a Voting Rights Act,
28:58another law designed to enforce these rights.
29:01But that narrative of maintaining racial hierarchy, it was still with us.
29:05And even though we passed the Civil Rights Laws in 1964
29:08and the Voting Rights Laws in 1965,
29:10there were a lot of people in this country that resisted and rejected the idea
29:15that black people should be equal to white people.
29:17And that's why I think the great challenge we face in this country is a narrative challenge.
29:22Yes, we have to have the rule of law,
29:24but we also have to push back against these ideas we have inherited
29:28that somehow black people are not as good as white people,
29:31that black people are less capable, less worthy, less trustworthy.
29:34And that's the fundamental challenge that I believe we have to approach.
29:38We never really had the transitional justice
29:42that other countries that deal with horrific human rights abuses have had.
29:45In South Africa, there was a process of truth and reconciliation after apartheid collapsed.
29:50They gave voice to the victims of apartheid to speak to their harm and their injury.
29:55And the perpetrators had an opportunity to give voice to their wrongdoing.
29:59In Berlin, in Germany, you see a country and a city that engaged in transitional justice.
30:05Now in Berlin, you can't go 200 meters without seeing markers and stones
30:09placed next to the homes of people who were killed during the Holocaust.
30:12There's a landscape that is trying to reckon with the horrors of that.
30:16Every student in Germany is required to study the Holocaust.
30:19You can't graduate without that.
30:21But here in the United States, we have states passing laws
30:24trying to make it illegal, impermissible for people to study these histories.
30:29And that just speaks to the challenge that we face.
30:32And so we are in the middle of it, and we have a lot of work to do,
30:35which is why I am persuaded that we need an era of truth and justice,
30:39truth and repair, truth and restoration, truth-telling about this history.
30:44And also on the campaign trail, this is an election year.
30:48Donald Trump is desperately trying to court the black vote.
30:52And he keeps saying that he was and he will be much better for African-Americans than Biden.
30:59Biden and Kamala Harris got 92% of the black vote nationally back in 2020.
31:05But as you know, these figures have been slipping dramatically.
31:09What is going to happen?
31:11Talking about the narrative.
31:13Yeah, well, I mean, I'm not sure I embrace that framing
31:17because I think, you know, if a candidate gets 92% of the black vote,
31:24a whole community of people from different perspectives,
31:27I mean, you know, the black community is much more diverse
31:30than it's ever been in the history of this country.
31:33We have black immigrants from Africa.
31:35We have people from the West Indies.
31:37We have people in different economic situations.
31:39And so if a candidate gets 92% of that vote,
31:43you'd have to say that candidate is doing very well with that community.
31:47I can't think of a white candidate that could claim that kind of success
31:51with any other community, ethnic community in this country.
31:56There is shifting because I think the community is shifting.
31:59We have more people who are African-American who are affluent.
32:03But I'm still actually pretty amazed that the African-American community
32:09still votes with largely one voice.
32:12There is an alignment with the values and the norms
32:15that emphasize equality and freedom and opportunity.
32:18There is still a really powerful instinct in the black community
32:21in this country to help the poor, to help those who are marginalized,
32:25to respond to the challenges that we face when we throw people away.
32:29And I think that's the really overwhelming narrative.
32:33There is some movement. I don't disagree with that.
32:36And I think what any candidate has to do to maintain support,
32:40to get support from the African-American community,
32:43and again, it's not a single perspective,
32:45is to reinforce these values and norms that we talk so much about.
32:49We're still not free yet.
32:51There's a presumption of dangerousness and guilt
32:53that's assigned to black and brown people.
32:55And it doesn't matter how wealthy you are or how kind you are
32:57or how talented you are.
32:59You can go places where you have to navigate
33:01a presumption of dangerousness and guilt.
33:04And our political and elected officials need to help us eradicate,
33:08eliminate that burden because it's unfair.
33:11I'm a lawyer. I'm a middle-aged black man.
33:13I've got all of these degrees. I've won cases at the Supreme Court.
33:16And I still go to places where I'm viewed as less than,
33:20where I'm presumed to be the defendant or presumed to be dangerous
33:24just because of the way I appear.
33:26And that's a heavy burden.
33:27I can tell you because I'm getting older
33:29that when you're constantly navigating these presumptions
33:31of dangerousness and guilt, it's exhausting.
33:34And we want something better.
33:36And I continue to believe that there is something that feels
33:39more like freedom, more like equality, more like justice,
33:43and I think it's waiting for us.
33:45And so we want candidates that are going to help us advance that.
33:48And to be honest, I haven't heard much, frankly, from Donald Trump
33:54and many others in that camp that speaks to that history.
33:58So we'll see what happens in the election,
34:00but I frankly think we've got a lot of critical issues in this country
34:06and I don't see the dynamic around who champions those issues
34:10shifting very much over the next six months.
34:14And just a final personal question.
34:16You mentioned you're a lawyer and you've done so much
34:19in the legal field.
34:21You've also, since 2018, stepped out into the public art
34:25and public memorial space.
34:27What has inspired you to do that?
34:29Do you think you now can accomplish more doing that kind of thing
34:33than trying to litigate in the courts?
34:38Yeah, I definitely now believe that it's going to require both.
34:41Activity in the law, I still believe in the rule of law
34:44and advancing the rule of law, creating rights for people
34:47who have been disfavored and marginalized.
34:49That's still really important to me.
34:51I'm a product of Brown v. Board of Education,
34:53the Supreme Court decision that struck down segregation in education.
34:58But I have become worried that we might not be able to win
35:01Brown v. Board of Education today because this narrative has emerged
35:06that equality isn't that important.
35:09Eliminating racial bias and addressing the legacy of slavery
35:12isn't that important.
35:14And that's where I think the arts and truth-telling
35:16has become so important.
35:18That's why we've created these legacy sites, the Legacy Museum,
35:21the National Memorial for Peace and Justice,
35:24which documents the lynching of thousands of black people
35:27who were pulled out of their homes and tortured and beaten and killed.
35:31Our new Freedom Monument Sculpture Park,
35:33which tries to address the legacy of slavery.
35:36These things are important to me now because I think it's going to take
35:39that narrative work to move us forward.
35:42When you're enslaved, you have to focus on freedom.
35:44You have to focus on emancipation.
35:46When you're dealing with terror violence and lynching,
35:48you have to focus on security.
35:50When you're disenfranchised and excluded,
35:53you have to focus on civil rights.
35:55Now in the 21st century, I think we have to focus on this narrative struggle,
35:59lifting up these ideas of equality and freedom
36:02and making them meaningful to everyone,
36:05pushing back against this idea that this hierarchy
36:08and stratification has any place in a society
36:11that claims to be the leader of the free world.
36:14I'm hoping these sites can play a critical role in that.
36:17As the great-grandson of people who were enslaved,
36:21my great-grandfather was enslaved in Caroline County, Virginia.
36:24There were anti-literacy laws that prohibited him from learning to read or write,
36:28but he wasn't defined by that.
36:30He learned to read or write.
36:32When emancipation came, he read the newspaper
36:35to people who didn't know how to read.
36:37I have a grandmother who worked as a domestic her whole life
36:39to value reading and education.
36:41She gave that to my mother.
36:43We grew up poor in a racially segregated community,
36:46but my mom bought us books so we could see a bigger world.
36:49And I am the heir of a community of people
36:52who believe in fighting for justice, pushing past these things.
36:56And whether that's in court with the law or in these narrative spaces,
37:00I think the goal is the same,
37:02which is to let truth and justice really finally be seen in this country
37:06because I think it's the path to liberation.
37:08It's the path to the kind of society most of us want to live in.
37:11Bryan Stevenson, thank you so much for being with us for Juneteenth.
37:15My pleasure.
37:17And a last note on Bryan Stevenson's focus on historical narrative.
37:21The Equal Justice Initiative's Legacy Sites Project continues to grow
37:25with the opening of the Freedom Monument Sculpture Park in Montgomery this spring.
37:30We turn now to another celebration of African American culture,
37:33this time through food.
37:35Bryan Terry is an award-winning vegan chef and author of six books,
37:39including Black Food, Stories, Art, and Recipes from Across the African Diaspora.
37:45In honor of Juneteenth, he joins Michelle Martin
37:47to discuss the evolution of his ancestors' cuisine
37:50through the lens of migration, identity, and resilience.
37:54Thanks, Bionna. Bryan Terry, thank you so much for joining us.
37:57Thank you so much for having me on, Michelle. It's great to see you again.
38:00It's great to see you.
38:02You are an award-winning chef, author, cookbook author, activist.
38:08And one of your signatures is to kind of connect food,
38:11not just with health and with enjoyment, but with the culture.
38:15Juneteenth celebrates the end of slavery and, more broadly,
38:19kind of African American resilience and resistance.
38:23How do you think food fits into that?
38:26Yeah, that's a great question.
38:28As you mentioned, we know that Juneteenth commemorates
38:30the ending of slavery in the United States,
38:32and it has a specific geographic context in Texas,
38:36but it's moved beyond there.
38:38And since it's a national holiday now,
38:40it has evolved into a day of reflection, celebration,
38:44and education about Black history and culture.
38:46And because of the work that I do around health, food, and farming issues,
38:50and because I just love to eat,
38:52I'm always thinking about different cultural holidays,
38:54our cultural holidays through the lens of food.
38:57And we know that food has always played a central role
39:00in culture expression, community building, and survival
39:03in the Black community.
39:04We can go back to the Civil Rights Movement.
39:06We think about so many of the restaurants and home cooks
39:10who supported Black activists.
39:12In fact, so much of the strategizing and organizing
39:16happened in home kitchens.
39:18We think about someone like Fannie Lou Hamer,
39:20who we often associate with electoral politics.
39:23And a lot of people aren't aware that Fannie Lou Hamer
39:26started the Freedom Farm in Mississippi,
39:29which had over 600 acres of land.
39:32They had affordable housing, acres and acres of farmland,
39:37and educational workshops to empower the community.
39:40But I want to just mention one of my biggest inspirations,
39:44and that was the Black Panther Party for Self-Defense,
39:47colloquially known as the Black Panthers.
39:49And while the popular media often paints them
39:51as kind of angry militants,
39:54they had a number of meaningful and powerful programs
39:58that were aimed at meeting the basic needs in communities.
40:01And a number of them looked at health,
40:04specifically food, their grocery giveaways
40:06and their Free Breakfast for Children program,
40:08in which they were feeding children
40:10hot, nourishing breakfasts every single morning.
40:12And so when I think about all these things
40:16that predates the type of activism
40:18that I currently do around these issues,
40:21it only makes sense that we think about Juneteenth
40:24and just all the connections
40:26with the kind of transfer of ingredients
40:29from the African continent to the new world,
40:31as well as cooking techniques.
40:33So I use it as a time to celebrate food.
40:36You know, people often think of African-American cuisine
40:41or traditional African-American cuisine as slave food, right?
40:44What was created from the remnants, the leftover,
40:47the least desirable portions,
40:50where you really talk about resistance,
40:53you really resist that narrative.
40:55You want to say more about that?
40:56Why you think that that's not really quite right
40:59and why you push hard against that?
41:01Well, I think in general, in the popular imagination,
41:04there are these very reductive ways
41:06that we think about Black food,
41:08specifically food in the United States.
41:11And so, as you mentioned,
41:13there are kind of these two strains
41:14that I've seen people talk about.
41:16They even talk about the antebellum survival food,
41:18upon which many enslaved Africans relied.
41:20And, you know, people often talk disparagingly
41:24about that food.
41:25You know, I've heard it referred to as slave food.
41:27And as you mentioned, there are this kind of history
41:31of often plantation owners giving enslaved Africans
41:34the worst parts of the animals, the animal viscera,
41:36or the discarded parts of the vegetable.
41:38And one, you know, let's not mention the fact
41:41that there were free Black people.
41:43Every Black person in the United States,
41:45a person of African descent,
41:46wasn't enslaved.
41:47But the other thing is that
41:49the institution of slavery wasn't a monolith.
41:51So maybe in the Deep South, the Black Belt,
41:54it was more of a paternalistic system
41:56in which every need of enslaved Africans
41:58was provided by plantation owners.
42:00But, you know, the institution of slavery looked different.
42:03The way that enslaved Africans might grow food,
42:06cook it, and eat it in the coastal Carolinas
42:08looked different than it did in Mississippi,
42:10Alabama, and Tennessee.
42:11And that looked different than it did in Louisiana.
42:14And that looked different than it did in Bahia, Brazil.
42:16And so to reduce it to just slave foods, you know,
42:19erases this history of enslaved Africans
42:21maybe having a garden in which they could grow
42:24their own food for their families
42:25or having a day off where they could hunt for protein.
42:27But the other strand that I see
42:29are the kind of big-flavored meats
42:31that we might find in a soul food restaurant
42:34or the, you know, sugary desserts
42:36or overcooked vegetables.
42:37And here's the thing.
42:38I'm not denying any of those things.
42:40Chitlins and pig's feet and red velvet cake
42:43and macaroni and cheese,
42:44all these things are part
42:46of this very diverse cuisine that we have.
42:49But when I think about the type of food
42:51that my grandfather and his parents
42:53and, you know, so many of our ancestors,
42:55they were growing and eating things
42:57like nutrient-rich collards,
42:59mustards, turnips, kale, dandelions,
43:02sugar snap peas, pole beans,
43:04sweet potatoes, black-eyed peas.
43:06These are the type of foods, Michelle,
43:07as you know, that any Western-trained physician
43:10or dietician or nutritionist would say
43:12we should all eat.
43:13And so I simply want to uplift
43:15and highlight those nutrient-rich,
43:17healthful foods that are part of our tradition
43:19so that we have a more holistic understanding
43:21of the type of foods
43:22that we've grown and eaten historically.
43:24How did it start for you?
43:28Well, I can tell you about the period when I...
43:32You know there's a stereotype, Michelle.
43:34I'm sure you've kind of heard
43:37or seen the stereotype
43:38of the self-righteous, dogmatic,
43:40judgmental vegans, right?
43:42The people that are wagging your finger at you
43:44because you're not eating a vegan diet
43:46even though they just converted to veganism
43:48like the week before.
43:49So that was me in high school.
43:52And, you know, one of the powerful things
43:54that really helped transform my habits
43:57and attitudes and politics regarding food
43:59was a hip-hop song.
44:01The song Beef by the hip-hop group
44:04Boogie Down Productions,
44:05one of the seminal hip-hop groups.
44:08Beef, what a relief.
44:10When will this poisonous product cease?
44:12This is another public service announcement.
44:15You can believe it or you can doubt it.
44:17Let us begin now with the cow.
44:20It just really blew me away
44:22and just transformed everything for me
44:24because they were talking about factory farming.
44:26I had no idea that animals
44:29in our industrialized food system
44:30had to endure so much violence.
44:31And as a young person, you know,
44:33it had such an impact on me.
44:34And, you know, the thing is,
44:36I always talk about just that kind of like
44:37abrasive period that I went through.
44:39And I think it's just natural for a young person
44:41to have a shift in worldview
44:43and to feel very zealous about,
44:45you know, trying to change the world.
44:47But once again, you know,
44:49what I've seen is that
44:50rather than proselytizing,
44:52the most powerful way that I've engaged people
44:55is by doing practical things,
44:57teaching people cooking skills,
44:58writing cookbooks,
45:00providing people with delicious food.
45:01And then that is such a powerful way
45:03to kind of transform people's hearts,
45:05minds, and spirits.
45:06What made you become a chef?
45:08It was really the politics of food
45:10that moved me towards, you know,
45:13just going to culinary school
45:15and thinking about using food
45:16as a kind of transformative tool.
45:18And it started when I was a doctoral student
45:21in history at NYU
45:22when I was doing research on the Black Panthers.
45:24They were, you know,
45:25doing all these programs around health,
45:27like addressing medical apartheid
45:29and doing testing for sickle cell anemia.
45:31But the one that transformed me the most
45:34was their free breakfast for children program.
45:36This was started in 1969,
45:38in January of that year.
45:39And by the end of the year,
45:40it had spread to every major city
45:42that had a Black Panther chapter.
45:44And they were feeding over 10,000 children
45:46every single day.
45:47And I just remember this kind of like
45:49moment of clarity.
45:50I was on the subway one morning
45:52going to the village to teach a class.
45:54And I saw these kids on the subway
45:56eating Red Hot Cheetos
45:58and candy bars and sugary donuts.
46:01And they were drinking sodas
46:03and energy drinks.
46:05And I realized that these kids,
46:07as my mentor Raj Patel would say,
46:09they're being stuffed and starved.
46:11They're eating a lot,
46:12but they're empty calories.
46:13And I realized that the type of,
46:14the spirit of the activism
46:16back in the 60s and the 70s,
46:18we needed it now.
46:19And so I wanted to be a food justice activist
46:22to make an intervention.
46:23But I didn't want to just, you know,
46:25be in the realm of like ideas and politics.
46:28I wanted to do something that felt practical,
46:30that felt immediate,
46:31that felt like it was giving young people skills.
46:33And so I started an organization,
46:35Be Healthy, that used cooking
46:37as a way to wake up these young people
46:39to the realities of our food system,
46:41but also give them the skills
46:43so that when they were adults,
46:44they would actually be able
46:45to make meals for themselves,
46:46go shopping, prepare the food,
46:48and then, you know, really have this kind of
46:50sustenance-based approach
46:52to taking care of themselves and their families.
46:55Have you seen a change over the time
46:57that since you've been working
47:00as a chef and also as a cookbook author,
47:03have you seen a change?
47:04I know, like, thinking about, like,
47:06one of your first books, Afro Vegan,
47:09you know, a lot of people, I think,
47:11might have been surprised
47:12that somebody like you even exists.
47:14That book was published a decade ago.
47:16We just celebrated the 10-year anniversary,
47:18and it's been so encouraging,
47:20I have to say, to see
47:23so many people who are,
47:26I'll say, open
47:28to eating more plant-based foods.
47:30Even people who aren't necessarily
47:32trying to embrace a full-on
47:33vegan or plant-based diet,
47:35what I've seen are people
47:36who are open to doing Meatless Mondays
47:38or people who are open to doing,
47:40you know, one meal a day
47:42that has just, you know,
47:44a vegan meal and no animal products.
47:47And what that says to me is that
47:49more people understand the,
47:52I mean, look, the data is out.
47:54We know that having a more plant-centered diet
47:58it's more nutrient-dense,
48:01it tends to be more healthful,
48:03and people just feel lighter.
48:05And that's, you know, Michelle,
48:06you've seen me on this journey
48:07for a decade, and I just want to say
48:10that that has been my approach.
48:12You can start with the
48:13heady intellectual ideas or the politics,
48:16but a lot of times when you start there,
48:18people run away.
48:19But my approach has been
48:20starting with the food,
48:21because I think a lot of people
48:23have these negative perceptions
48:25of what plant-based cuisine is.
48:27And what I've seen is
48:29when you serve people delicious food
48:31that's devoid of animal products,
48:32they're often surprised,
48:33and it makes them more open
48:35to eating this type of food.
48:37I will say that one thing
48:38that has been a little frustrating to me
48:40is that it seems that a lot of people
48:42feel like, you know, spending their dollars
48:44in alignment with their values is enough.
48:46You know, if I just go to
48:47the big corporate market
48:48and I buy all this, you know,
48:50vegan and organic food,
48:51then I'm doing my job.
48:52And I think that is important
48:54to spend our dollars
48:55in alignment with our values.
48:56But I also think that we need
48:57to think about the larger
48:58structural reasons
49:00that many communities
49:01don't have access
49:02to healthy, fresh food.
49:03They don't have access
49:04to supermarkets.
49:05So I always encourage people
49:07to think about, well,
49:08how can you get involved
49:09with your community
49:10to ensure that everyone
49:11has a human right
49:12to healthy, fresh, affordable,
49:14and, you know, plant-centered food?
49:16Do you feel like you're making headway?
49:19Oh, for sure.
49:20You know, the thing
49:21that lets me know
49:23that I'm making headway
49:24is this generation
49:26of young cookbook
49:28authors and chefs
49:29and food justice activists
49:31who are in the streets
49:32doing it big.
49:33I turned 50 this year,
49:34so I'm an old man now.
49:37And just as I'm
49:38standing on the shoulders
49:39of so many of my ancestors
49:41who come before me,
49:42whether it's Fannie Lou Hamer
49:43or, you know, activists
49:44like Dick Gregory
49:45or the, you know,
49:46MC Cara is one,
49:48Verda Mae Smart-Grosvenor,
49:50the anthropologist
49:51and cookbook writer.
49:53I hope that many
49:55of this younger generation
49:56see themselves
49:57standing on my shoulders.
49:58And I, you know, imagine
50:00that they're going to take this
50:01so much further
50:02than I could ever imagine.
50:03So I'm hopeful.
50:04I'm so hopeful.
50:06One of your latest books,
50:07your 2021 book
50:08called Black Food,
50:09Stories, Art, and Recipes
50:11from across the African diaspora
50:13won a bunch of awards.
50:14It was hailed
50:15as one of the most
50:16critically acclaimed
50:17American cookbooks that year.
50:19Are there one or two stories
50:20or essays that really
50:21stands out to you
50:22or recipes, for that matter,
50:24that really stands out to you?
50:26We put that book together
50:27in nine months.
50:28And we started working on it
50:31in 2020 when the U.S.
50:33was kind of reckoning
50:35with the ways
50:36in which we've treated
50:37African Americans
50:38historically and contemporaneously.
50:41I knew that,
50:42I saw an anthology
50:44like Black Food
50:45that brought together scholars
50:46and chefs and artists
50:48and activists
50:49from around the globe
50:50as something that I'd do
50:51later in my career.
50:52But in that moment,
50:53I realized that
50:54there was a sense of urgency
50:55to do it then
50:56because it was revealed
50:57there was a lot of racism
51:00within the publishing industry.
51:01And, you know,
51:02there was a lot of highlighting
51:03of the ways in which,
51:04you know, authors of color
51:05and Black authors
51:06were having a harder time
51:07getting their work published.
51:09And so I just felt like
51:10this was the moment.
51:11And I reached out to friends
51:13around the globe
51:14to be a part of this book
51:15and I couldn't be more proud.
51:17My favorite aspect of the book
51:19is the artwork.
51:20Every chapter starts
51:22with a piece of art
51:24that I got permission
51:26or either had artists
51:27kind of create
51:28an original piece
51:29that really encapsulated
51:31the ideas
51:32and the content within.
51:34And, you know,
51:35I just, as an educator,
51:37I'm always thinking about
51:38the multiple ways
51:39that people learn.
51:40Some people who've been
51:41formally educated,
51:42they can dig deeply
51:44into, you know,
51:45a heady intellectual essay.
51:47But then some people
51:48might be more moved
51:49by an image
51:50that really just speaks to,
51:52you know, these issues
51:53that we're covering.
51:54Some people might be
51:55moved by the poetry
51:56in the book.
51:57Others are just going to see it
51:58as a book that they use
52:00in their kitchen.
52:01So when I wrote the book
52:02or when I conceived of it,
52:03I said,
52:04I want this to be a book
52:05that moved from one's kitchen
52:07to their nightstand
52:08to their coffee table.
52:09And the response
52:10has been so tremendous.
52:12And, you know,
52:13here we are.
52:14What?
52:15Three years later
52:16after the book
52:17is being published
52:18and we're still talking about it
52:19and I hope that we're
52:20still talking about it
52:2130 years from now.
52:22Okay, well,
52:23for the moment, though,
52:24some people do want
52:25those recipes.
52:26So while people are planning
52:27their Juneteenth get-togethers,
52:29what do you recommend?
52:31Any recommendations?
52:33Oh, my gosh.
52:35My favorite recipe
52:37in the book,
52:38Fork's Down,
52:39is this
52:42blueberry
52:44vegan cheesecake
52:46by this brilliant
52:48pastry chef,
52:49Malcolm Livingston.
52:50And to be clear,
52:51this recipe,
52:52this cookbook has,
52:53you know,
52:54dozens of recipes,
52:55but they aren't all vegan.
52:56And it was a decision
52:57I had to make as an editor
52:58to really give
52:59the contributors
53:00a space to,
53:02you know,
53:03write or contribute
53:04the recipe that made sense
53:05for them or told
53:06their family's story.
53:08I love Nicole Taylor,
53:10a good friend of mine
53:11who actually has a book
53:13about Juneteenth
53:14that's brilliant,
53:16Watermelon and Redbirds.
53:17She does this cocoa
53:20baked fish recipe,
53:23and people would think
53:24cocoa and fish,
53:25but it's absolutely
53:27brilliant and scrumptious.
53:29There are a lot of good,
53:30you know,
53:31drink recipes.
53:32Tony Tipton Martin,
53:33the cookbook author
53:34and editor,
53:37does a recipe.
53:38I think it's a whiskey sour.
53:39So there are just
53:40so many great recipes in there.
53:42And, you know,
53:43I think in terms of menu planning
53:45for Juneteenth or otherwise,
53:47this is a powerful resource.
53:49This will help you out.
53:50All right,
53:51before we let you go,
53:52I have to put you on the spot.
53:53What is your celebration food?
53:55What is your kind of go-to
53:57for a get-together day
54:00like Juneteenth?
54:01If I have to make a dish,
54:03if it's just like one thing
54:04that's emblematic of my love,
54:05it's Hoppin' John.
54:06Black-eyed peas,
54:07rice that, you know,
54:09rich tomato sauce.
54:10That's hands down
54:13my favorite dish.
54:14That's got to be there.
54:15All right.
54:16Brian, Terry,
54:17thank you so much
54:18for talking with us
54:19and happy Juneteenth.
54:20Happy Juneteenth.
54:21Thank you so much, Michelle.
54:23And finally,
54:24we remember a giant
54:25in more than one way.
54:27Hall of Fame baseball player
54:28Willie Mays
54:29has died at 93 years old.
54:31Known as the Say Hey Kid
54:33for the way he
54:34enthusiastically greeted others,
54:35he was among the first generation
54:37of African-American players
54:38in Major League Baseball.
54:40He dominated the game
54:41for decades,
54:42playing 23 seasons,
54:44mostly for the New York,
54:45then San Francisco Giants.
54:47His famous
54:48over-the-shoulder catch
54:49during the World Series
54:50in 1954
54:52remains one of the most
54:53iconic moments
54:54ever seen in baseball.
54:56Finishing with 660
54:58career home runs
54:59and winning 12
55:00Gold Glove Awards,
55:01he was a force
55:02both at bat
55:03and in the field.
55:04Here he tells Larry King
55:05how he overcame prejudice
55:07with his talent
55:08for the game.
55:09The only time
55:10I had a problem with
55:11was Hagerstown, Maryland.
55:13I had a very, very problem.
55:14I started on a Friday afternoon
55:16and they called me
55:17all kinds of names there.
55:18But by Sunday,
55:20they was all clapping.
55:21Mays' legacy
55:22on and off the field
55:24inspired generations
55:25and will continue to.
55:27And that's it
55:28for our program tonight.
55:29If you want to find out
55:30what's coming up
55:31on the show each night,
55:32sign up for our newsletter
55:33at PBS.org
55:34slash Amanpour.
55:35Thank you for watching
55:36Amanpour & Company on PBS.
55:37Join us again tomorrow.