Former Head of Intelligence for the Israeli Prison Service, Yuval Bitton on his experiences with Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar and losing his nephew on October 7th. Fashion designer Diane von Furstenberg and director Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy discuss their new documentary about Furstenberg’s life. Ebony Reed and Louise Story explore the Black-white wealth gap in their book “Fifteen Cents on the Dollar.”
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00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour and Company.
00:06Here's what's coming up.
00:08In 2004, I saved Sinwar's life in prison.
00:14I was the doctor who diagnosed the problem he had.
00:17The Israeli doctor who came to Yahya Sinwar's rescue, Yuval Bitton, tells his unbelievable
00:23story for the first time since October 7th on international television.
00:28I created the wrap dress, and I wrapped America around.
00:32A fashion icon's extraordinary life.
00:35I speak to the woman herself, Diane von Furstenberg, and director Sharmino Bey-Chinoy, plus...
00:41We have to go all the way back to the beginning, when black Americans were enslaved people,
00:46because that is the beginning of working and not being paid.
00:50Fifteen cents on the dollar, reporters Ebony Reid and Louise Story tell Haris Srinivasan
00:56some of the personal stories behind the black and white wealth gap.
01:18Amanpour and Company is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Atwood and
01:24Leslie Williams, Candice King Weir, The Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss, Mark
01:32J. Bleschner, The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, Charles Rosenblum, Ku and
01:41Patricia Ewan, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities, Barbara Hope
01:49and
01:50Christiane Amanpour.
01:55Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. Israel's military appears
02:06to be countering Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's goals for the war in Gaza. In a TV interview,
02:12IDF spokesman Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari has acknowledged what many observers have been
02:18arguing for months. Take a listen.
02:21Hamas is an idea. Those who think we can make Hamas disappear are wrong. I'm not talking
02:29about the alternatives. This is a decision of the political echelon and the IDF will
02:34implement. But the issue of eliminating Hamas is simply to throw dust in the eyes of the
02:41public. If we don't bring something else to Gaza, in the end of the day, we will get Hamas.
02:47And my first guest agrees and he probably knows the top level of Hamas better than anyone.
02:52That's because Israeli doctor Yuval Bitton was working as a dentist for the state prison
02:58service in the 1990s when he met Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. Bitton says they spent hundreds
03:05of hours together. And one day in 2004, when Sinwar faced a medical emergency, Bitton swooped
03:13in and saved his life. Sinwar thanked him when he was later released in the extraordinary
03:18prisoner hostage swap for Gilad Shalit. But on October 7th, Bitton's nephew Tamir was
03:24murdered by Hamas at kibbutz near Oz. It is an extraordinary story and Bitton tells us
03:30the lessons he learned about what drives Hamas and Sinwar and what the Israeli leadership
03:35continues to get wrong. Since October 7th, Bitton has not spoken on international television
03:41until tonight. So here's our recent conversation.
03:44Yuval, you said that on the morning of October 7th, you knew immediately who had planned
03:51this massacre. How come?
03:58Because I know the person who planned and conceived and initiated this criminal attack.
04:04I have known him since 1996. And not only him, but the entire Hamas leadership in Gaza.
04:10And it was clear to me that this is what they were planning while they were still in prison.
04:15And this is the plan of Hamas. It was very clear to me.
04:19You're talking about Yahya Sinwar. And you said that when you realized what happened
04:25on October 7th, you were kind of tormented by what you did for him in jail. You essentially
04:32saved his life. Tell me about that story.
04:38In 2004, I saved Sinwar's life in prison. I was the doctor who diagnosed the problem he had.
04:45When he explained to me what was happening to him, I diagnosed it as a stroke.
04:50And together with a general practitioner, we decided to take him to the hospital.
04:55He arrived at the hospital. The diagnosis was that he had abscess in the brain.
05:01And he was operated on that day, thus saving his life.
05:05Because if it had exploded, he would have died.
05:08He thanked me and the doctors for saving his life.
05:12And he also asked the security officer, who was a Muslim, when we visited him in the hospital,
05:17to tell me in Arabic and explain to me what it means for someone to save a Muslim's life.
05:24And that he owed me his life.
05:26He also told me that on the day he was released in the Gilad Shalit deal in 2011,
05:31that he owed me his life. And one day he will repay it.
05:35And as you understand, he repaid it on October 7th.
05:39And that he was also directly responsible for the murder of my nephew in Kibbutz Niroz.
05:48Your nephew went to try to save his family and others when the invasion happened
05:54and the massacres happened. And he was abducted and apparently killed,
05:59or he died of his wounds, being dragged back into Gaza.
06:03Do you believe that had Sinwar known it was your nephew, the outcome would have been different?
06:14I did not and do not engage in speculation.
06:17My nephew came out to defend the community and the country and the Gaza envelope.
06:24He fought in those terrible moments of the morning in Kibbutz Niroz.
06:28Hundreds of Nuchba terrorists infiltrated the Kibbutz.
06:31They murdered, raped and slaughtered and burned 50 people from Niroz.
06:3750 members of Kibbutz Niroz and 75 other members were kidnapped,
06:43including Tamir's grandmother, Yafa Adar, the older woman on the scooter.
06:49Tamir fought as an emergency squad member.
06:52He was seriously injured during his defense of the community.
06:55There were only five of them. They didn't really stand a chance.
06:59And he was kidnapped while he was still seriously injured, unconscious,
07:03and died after a few hours in Gaza.
07:06So it's irrelevant what I think about what would have happened if.
07:13Okay, just to be clear, the elderly lady, his grandmother,
07:17I believe, was released in the first round during the negotiated release in November.
07:22Can I ask you what you learned about Sinwar and Hamas in jail?
07:30I had many hours, hundreds of hours of conversation with Sinwar,
07:34both as a dentist and as an intelligence officer.
07:37What impression did you get of his plans, of his goals?
07:42I learned from him and I learned from the other leaders.
07:47It was clear to me that Sinwar reflects the Hamas-Gaza worldview.
07:52Sinwar told me clearly in 2004 that they would be ready to sign a hudna,
07:58a truce, for 20 years because the State of Israel is currently a strong state.
08:03But he also told me that in 20 years he estimates that we will be weakened
08:08because of internal struggles between us within Israeli society.
08:12And as soon as they recognize that we are weak, they will attack us.
08:17And they also said clearly that we, as Jews, have no place on these lands,
08:22on the lands on which the State of Israel is located.
08:25These are waqf lands. These are Muslim lands.
08:29These are lands that do not belong to us.
08:32Therefore, we, as Jews, have no right to exist on the lands.
08:35Therefore, there is no compromise.
08:37There is no compromise on the 1967 borders or 1948 borders.
08:42It's either us or them.
08:45Therefore, it's only a matter of time and timing that they will act against us
08:49and try to expel us from the place where we live.
08:52This is a worldview that they did not hide.
08:54He told me that explicitly.
08:57But his way was much more extreme than others.
09:00His thought that this conflict can only be resolved by force
09:03and the struggle they are waging against us,
09:05that Hamas' waging is a religious struggle, the war is a religious war.
09:10It is not a nationalist war.
09:12It is not about establishing a Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel.
09:17It's all Palestine.
09:19He only said this more bluntly than other Hamas leaders in the West Bank.
09:24Yuval, now, apparently, according to Israeli intelligence, I think,
09:31Sinwar is still somewhere in those tunnels in Gaza,
09:35still apparently calling the shots nine months, eight months into this war.
09:42When you think about his mental state now and who he is, the person you know,
09:48what do you think he's thinking about ceasefire, about anything,
09:53about releasing the hostages that still remain?
09:57I've made my opinion very clear for eight months and at every stage of this war.
10:06I've made my opinion very clear.
10:08And until today, I have unfortunately not been wrong
10:11about my assessments regarding Sinwar.
10:13I wish I was mistaken.
10:15I was asked in the first few days of the war
10:17what Sinwar would demand in exchange for the hostages.
10:21It was clear to me that he would release the women and children
10:24because of Hamas's interests and not due to Israel's military pressure
10:29because he was attacked by the entire world and especially by Qatar,
10:34which felt embarrassed.
10:36And the moment that he released the women and children
10:39and turned the pressure on to Israel,
10:41it was clear to me that the goal of this criminal and murderous attack
10:45in which women, children, and innocent civilians were murdered,
10:49raped, and burned in their homes was to release Palestinian prisoners.
10:54He stated this in 2011 when he was released during the Shalit deal.
10:59He thought the Shalit deal was a bad deal that Hamas should not have accepted.
11:04And he said the day he was released that the Shalit deal was a bad deal.
11:07We will kidnap soldiers in order to release those we left behind.
11:11And the success of the October 7th attacks caused the kidnapping
11:15of 240 Israeli civilians, some of whom were also soldiers.
11:20And he brought on the IDF's response, which he did not expect,
11:23because he did not think he'd manage to kidnap 240 civilians and soldiers.
11:28He thought he'd manage to get a number of soldiers
11:31but didn't think the IDF would be left unprepared along the borders.
11:35If the main reason of the attack was to release Palestinian prisoners,
11:39the IDF's response forced him to change his priorities.
11:42And at the moment, since the day the IDF entered the Gaza Strip,
11:47his priority is to maintain his rule.
11:50He put the issue of releasing the prisoners as a second priority.
11:54Now the first priority is to maintain Hamas's rule.
11:58The condition for releasing the hostages will only be
12:01the IDF's withdrawal from Gaza and the end of the war.
12:05The hostages are being used to achieve his goals.
12:09Unfortunately, Israel made a mistake during its military operation
12:13and in its thinking that only military pressure would bring the release of hostages,
12:18which I said in the first month of the war.
12:21I thought a military effort was important in order to dismantle Hamas,
12:24destroy it, and to hurt its military capabilities.
12:28It's an important effort.
12:30But in order to return the hostages, it's not enough.
12:34Because Sinwar thinks only about the continuity of his rule.
12:38He is willing to sacrifice even 100,000 Palestinians
12:42in order to ensure the survival of his rule.
12:45He is willing to pay with the lives of militants, Hamas members, civilians.
12:50He doesn't care.
12:52And therefore, Israel's mistake is that it did not create an alternative to Hamas's rule
12:57and didn't replace Hamas's rule and didn't allow an improved version
13:02of the Fatah or Palestinian Authority forces to enter
13:06in order to make clear to Sinwar that he has lost everything,
13:10both his military capability but mostly his authority in Gaza.
13:16That would have caused Sinwar to make a deal to return our hostages
13:20in exchange for prisoners.
13:22Today, he feels he is in a powerful position.
13:25He is running the negotiations while still operating from within Gaza
13:29and still controls the areas from which the IDF evacuated.
13:33He also controls the humanitarian aid, and therefore he feels strong
13:37and won't sign an agreement to release the hostages
13:40unless the IDF withdraws from Gaza and the fighting ends.
13:47Yuval, you've just said that the Israeli government has made a mistake strategically
13:53by not providing for alternate Palestinian governance inside Gaza
14:00as they go after Hamas.
14:02When you were prison dentist and when you were able to see Hamas, Fatah,
14:08all these different prisoners, what was the difference between those sides
14:13that you noticed?
14:19Israel should have agreed to the Biden plan, which talks about the creation
14:22of a strategic access which would change the Middle East,
14:26an access including the moderate Arab states led by Saudi Arabia,
14:31the Emirates, Egypt, Jordan, sponsored by the United States,
14:37that would sponsor a Palestinian force associated with the Palestinian Authority
14:42and Fatah that would enter the Gaza Strip and in every place the IDF evacuates,
14:47a civil authority would take its place run by the Palestinian Authority
14:52which would enforce its rule and monitor it.
14:55This mistake of not accepting Biden's plan enabled Sinwar
14:59to be the only player in the arena.
15:01With one hand we applied military force and dismantled them
15:04and with the other hand we have continued to enable Hamas' rule.
15:08When I worked in the prison system, in 2007 Hamas violently overthrew Fatah,
15:14murdered hundreds of their people, threw them off roofs, if not thousands.
15:19Some of them they tied to cars and drove them through the streets of Gaza
15:22until they died. Some of them were beheaded.
15:26Then Fatah understood that its greatest enemy was Hamas and not Israel.
15:31It was then that Fatah understood that Hamas waves the green flag,
15:35the flag of Islam and not the Palestinian flag,
15:38that Hamas' struggle is not the same as Fatah's struggle.
15:42Fatah talks about two states for two nations.
15:45Fatah talks about some sort of compromise within the 1967 or 1948 borders.
15:51Hamas is fighting a religious war against the State of Israel.
15:55What Hamas did to Fatah in 2007, who are his brothers, they're Muslims,
16:00if he did that to Muslims, what will they do to the Jews when they could?
16:06In 2007 in prison the Fatah leadership came to us,
16:09the intelligence officers, and demanded and requested of us
16:12to remove all of the Hamas prisoners from the Fatah quarters,
16:16otherwise they will murder them.
16:19They told us, the intelligence officers and the Israeli commanders,
16:22that they don't see Hamas as part of their struggle against Israel.
16:26They see them as traitors and enemies.
16:29Since then, in the West Bank, Fatah is waging an all-out war against Hamas.
16:36Not because of their love for Israel,
16:38but because they suspect they could lose control of the West Bank as they did in Gaza,
16:43and because they fear that Hamas could rise up in the West Bank as they did in Gaza.
16:48Hamas only sees one way, a Muslim state, a Muslim caliphate,
16:53and if the Fatah gets in its way, it will harm Fatah too.
16:56Therefore it was obvious that we should have exploited this,
16:59the same way we did in prison, but outside as well.
17:02Sinwar is most afraid of a scenario in which Fatah would control Gaza,
17:06and not Israeli control, because Israel is an enemy in the eyes of the Palestinians.
17:11So he will always be able to draft people against Israel,
17:14in order to conduct guerrilla warfare.
17:17But against Fatah, it will be more difficult,
17:19because the Fatah is part of its own nation.
17:26Final question.
17:27You say that Sinwar and the other Palestinians learned a lot about Israel,
17:32they learned Hebrew, they learned about society while they were in prison.
17:36You learned something about Hamas, but did the government,
17:39did the Israeli security, intelligence, society, learn anything about Hamas?
17:47Unfortunately, the Israeli leadership did not study Hamas,
17:50and a lot of people among us, even in the intelligence service,
17:53did not know and learn Hamas well enough.
17:56All we needed to do was listen to them.
17:58Our attitude towards Hamas was arrogant.
18:01We dismissed Hamas, and Hamas said everything it intended to do.
18:06But we didn't want to listen.
18:08This is one thing.
18:10The second thing is there was a wrong conception.
18:13The conception with which we acted towards Hamas was wrong.
18:17Israel should have toppled Hamas in many opportunities.
18:20Since 2007, when Hamas came into power in Gaza,
18:24we should have toppled it.
18:26Hamas' rule had to be toppled.
18:28And each time we didn't do it, we got an even stronger Hamas,
18:31strengthening its rule of Gaza and armoring itself for 2023.
18:35The mistake was to differentiate between Gaza and the West Bank,
18:39between Hamas and Fatah.
18:42It served Hamas.
18:44It didn't serve us.
18:46We thought that we could isolate Hamas,
18:48that we had the technological means to keep Hamas inside the borders of Gaza,
18:53and we will have intelligence to alert the enemy's intention to hurt us,
18:58and that we would be prepared for it ahead of time.
19:01I think we established our intelligence too much on technology
19:05and less on human intelligence.
19:07And human intelligence could have recognized better the intention of the enemy,
19:11the intention of Hamas, to do this criminal raid,
19:14and we could have known about it in advance,
19:17and we wouldn't have found ourselves surprised.
19:20So our conception collapsed.
19:22Also, the strengthening of Hamas with Qatari money was a mistake.
19:26We made many mistakes because our leaders and IDF and intelligence members
19:31were wrong about their conception or their understanding of Hamas.
19:37Yuval Bitton, thank you very much indeed for your information and your insights.
19:42And it really is extraordinary perspective,
19:44given what we've just reported that the chief IDF spokesman
19:48has agreed with some of this now publicly in an Israeli TV interview,
19:53and we have seen that key members of the so-called war cabinet
19:57before it was dissolved actually resigned
20:00because of some of this kind of perspective and information
20:04and seeing that the war was not achieving the maximalist goals
20:10that Netanyahu and his right-wing coalition had set.
20:14Next, to a trailblazing fashion designer and her extraordinary life story.
20:20If the world knows Diane von Furstenberg, it is for her iconic wrap dresses,
20:25but her identity is far more complex than that simple item.
20:29She's the child of a Holocaust survivor.
20:32Her mother barely, barely made it out of Auschwitz.
20:35She's unashamedly embraced life and love on her own terms,
20:39as she says, like any man would.
20:42And she's also the savvy businesswoman who built a fashion empire.
20:46Now, a new documentary, Diane von Furstenberg,
20:50Woman in Charge, tells the whole story.
20:52Here's a clip from the trailer.
20:54Welcome the woman who reinvented the dress, Diane von Furstenberg.
20:57I created the wrap dress and I wrapped America around.
21:01It epitomized a modern woman who could have it all.
21:05She was one of the first women who broke through the glass ceiling in business.
21:09Now there's a woman.
21:12How do you get to be a princess?
21:14Well, in my case, I married a prince.
21:18Egon and Diane were like this it couple.
21:21He had the attitude that everybody wanted to sleep with him, male, female, and whatever.
21:25It was a time of free love.
21:28It is co-directed by the Oscar winning director, Charmaine Obaid Chinoy,
21:32herself a trailblazer in the film world.
21:35And they both recently joined me ahead of the film's release.
21:39Diane von Furstenberg, Charmaine Obaid Chinoy, welcome to the program.
21:43Hello.
21:45Thank you.
21:46So listen, this is pretty amazing.
21:49Firstly, I've spoken to both of you separately in the past.
21:52I know some of Charmaine's previous work.
21:54Diane, obviously I know your work.
21:56But I don't think I would have necessarily paired you.
21:59So first, Diane, what is it about Charmaine?
22:03What made you trust her to tell your story?
22:06I am a great admirer of her work.
22:09And a woman who gets two Oscars before she's 40 is pretty amazing.
22:15I obviously couldn't be a producer.
22:17I couldn't be involved in anything.
22:20I had absolutely no involvement other than being the subject.
22:24Of course, they had all access to my archives,
22:27and I helped them get people to interview.
22:30But I had absolutely, and I actually love it like that.
22:34It's much better to be the subject.
22:36And Charmaine, what about Diane?
22:38What was it about her that attracted you?
22:42I've made films about women who've lived extraordinary lives,
22:47who've been faced with circumstances, adversity,
22:51and have sort of risen through it.
22:53If you look at the spine of Diane's life,
22:55here is a woman who was born out of the ashes of World War II,
22:59whose birth in itself was a miracle,
23:02and who started a business at a time when women needed men
23:06to co-sign for something as small as a credit card.
23:09And her journey from Europe to America as an immigrant,
23:14starting a new business, being a single mother,
23:17it's an inspirational story of a woman
23:20who was trying to chart her own yellow brick road.
23:23And that is what I wanted to focus on,
23:25because I feel today women need to hear stories
23:28of how you make it in the world
23:31and how you find your own voice.
23:33And Diane is a great example of someone
23:35who's fallen down many times and picked herself back up.
23:38Well, listen, one of the most extraordinary things
23:40is how you decided to start the program.
23:43Diane has always owned herself and has always been authentic.
23:47And this clip we're going to play right now,
23:49because I just laughed out loud when I saw it.
23:52Ha-ha-ha.
23:59Yeah.
24:03I don't understand why so many people do not embrace age.
24:12I've always been attracted by wrinkles, you know?
24:16Age, age means living.
24:19You shouldn't say how old you are.
24:22You should say, how long have you lived?
24:31If you take all your wrinkles away,
24:34you know, the map of your life is different.
24:39I don't really want to erase anything from my life.
24:44Diane, are there many women that you know,
24:47I mean, even younger than you,
24:49who would be that honest about age?
24:53But what I don't understand,
24:55I don't understand this honest about age.
24:58I mean, age means you have lived,
25:00so you have to honor that.
25:03And when you age, you already have, you know,
25:07you already have the years before.
25:10So I don't understand the concept of,
25:14oh, not wanting to say your age.
25:17I'm 77 years old, and I couldn't be a week younger,
25:22because last week I learned a lot.
25:25So I just don't understand the concept
25:29of being intimidated by your age.
25:32I think it's a victory.
25:34Yeah, that's great.
25:35But you work in the fashion industry.
25:37You live in New York.
25:38You know so many women
25:39who are trying to erase the wrinkles
25:41and jack up their faces and dress in a way.
25:44But that's why this is so interesting.
25:46And actually, your story may have something to do with that.
25:50You say that, you know, 18 months
25:52after your mother emerged alive from Auschwitz,
25:56you were born.
25:57I'm going to get to that in a moment.
25:59But first I want to ask Sharmin,
26:00because there's an extraordinary scene
26:03whereby some of your mother,
26:04the fragments of the little letters your mother wrote
26:07that she was on the way, you know,
26:09essentially to the concentration camp
26:12that were eventually found,
26:14because you found them decades later.
26:16I'm going to play this clip from the documentary.
26:19She took some cardboard, and she wrote to her parents,
26:23and she threw it on the street,
26:27hoping that somebody would find it.
26:30And she never, you see, she said...
26:33She gave the address, and she wrote to her parents.
27:01I think that's extraordinary, too.
27:07I leave with a smile.
27:08It takes something to be able to write that then.
27:11It wasn't true.
27:12I mean, it's not like she left with a smile,
27:15but she wanted her parents to think that she...
27:18And she did survive, you know.
27:20She survived 14 months,
27:22and she always said that she felt that she survived
27:26because her mother's will, yeah.
27:29You say throughout the film
27:31that your mantra is freedom
27:34and also being in charge as a woman.
27:36You keep using those words throughout the film.
27:39And so, really, let's jump forward
27:42to when you came to the United States
27:44and around that time
27:46essentially became a businesswoman out of nowhere
27:49with the famous wrap dress.
27:51How difficult was that?
27:53Because I read that, I mean, I saw in the film
27:55that you had to crisscross all over America
27:58and that, you know, people were not prepared, really,
28:01to deal with a woman who was peddling these wares
28:05at that time.
28:06It was the adventure of my life, you know.
28:09We don't choose where we are born.
28:13We don't choose who our parents are.
28:15But what we can do, we don't even choose our destiny,
28:18but we try to navigate it the best that we can.
28:21I wanted very much to be a woman in charge,
28:24to be a woman independent.
28:26Even though I had married a young, very attractive
28:29aristocrat with money,
28:31I wanted very much to have my own money
28:34and to be a woman in charge.
28:36And I became that woman because of a little dress.
28:40And so I traveled around
28:42and meeting women, wrapping dresses around them.
28:45And the more confident I was,
28:48the more I was actually selling confidence with a dress.
28:52And it was, you know, the liberation of women
28:55and it was the time.
28:56And this dress became also a flag of freedom.
29:01And I wonder, Diane, you're sitting next to Sharmin.
29:03I mean, obviously a younger generation,
29:04but also from a country, let's face it, Pakistan,
29:07that simply would never be wearing wrap dresses.
29:10What does it feel like to be a successful woman
29:13in, you know, in Pakistan?
29:16Well, I will say this,
29:17that I'm very much a product of Pakistan.
29:19I was born and raised there.
29:20I found my voice in Pakistan.
29:22I live and work out of Pakistan.
29:24The space exists for women like myself to be there.
29:28We have to continue to fight every single day for our rights.
29:32But let's be honest,
29:33women in America are fighting
29:34for their reproductive rights these days.
29:36Women in Europe are fighting for their rights.
29:38There are giant steps being taken around the world
29:41for women who are being pushed back.
29:43Some of us live in countries
29:44which are far more difficult for women than others.
29:47But I will say that women like myself stay in our countries.
29:51We speak out, and we try and push the narrative forward
29:54so that our children and our daughters
29:57have a better tomorrow.
29:59And I wanted to, you know,
30:00I was actually very interested
30:01in when you touched on Diane's sexuality.
30:04And, I mean, there was that amazing clip
30:06where, you know, Diane talks about having had an affair
30:09or I don't know how you describe it,
30:12but with Warren Beatty and Ryan O'Neill in the same weekend
30:15and just nearly went into a threesome
30:18with Mick Jagger and David Bowie.
30:20I mean, that's pretty hot stuff.
30:23Why did you want to include that?
30:27Well, you should really ask me why I even said that.
30:31And the truth is that at that time, you know,
30:37it was something to boast about.
30:39Why a businessman can go on tour,
30:43arrive at the Beverly Hills Hotel,
30:45and, you know, go out with one man and one girl
30:48and another girl the next day?
30:50And why can't a woman do that?
30:52I mean, why?
30:53And so it's, I mean, it's part of, you know,
30:57just speaking the truth.
30:59And I was quite proud of it.
31:01I mean, I actually still am.
31:03They were hot.
31:04They were in their early 30s.
31:06I want to just flip back to your husband,
31:08your first husband, Prince Egon von Furstenberg,
31:11because eventually,
31:12or maybe you knew at the beginning,
31:14but anyway, he was gay.
31:15And it was at a time of this terrible,
31:19terrible AIDS crisis in New York.
31:21And he did develop AIDS, and he died of it.
31:26And I just wonder what impact that had
31:29on your children and on you.
31:31You had two children with him.
31:33Well, first of all, more than being gay,
31:36he was promiscuous, you know?
31:38So, and there was a time also in New York
31:44where people were very promiscuous,
31:46and then all of a sudden AIDS came.
31:48And it was hard, mostly for my children,
31:51because they were growing up.
31:53At that time, they were teenagers.
31:55And to be teenagers and to have a fear of,
31:59you know, a sexual relationship could kill you
32:03was something very different than what I grew up with.
32:07And they talk about it in the movie.
32:11And we never really actually addressed it
32:14while he was there.
32:17But the three of us were with Egon when he died,
32:20and it was a very profound moment,
32:22but actually a very beautiful moment.
32:25I'll also say this,
32:27that one of the beauties about the film,
32:29one of the most incredible things about the film
32:31is how honest the family is.
32:33Alex and Tatiana both open up their relationship
32:37with their mother,
32:38their relationship with their father.
32:40And it's the honesty in telling their story
32:43that makes Diane's story so much stronger.
32:46Shamim, I want to ask you this,
32:47because you did get the children,
32:48they're not children, they're adults,
32:50but you did get her kids to open up
32:51and to appear and to talk.
32:53And I was actually really, really kind of moved
32:56when Diane is reading this letter
32:58that once when she was a kid, Tatiana wrote her.
33:02And it says, Dear Mommy,
33:04I was wondering if I could have a talk with you sometime,
33:07because Mommy, you don't know anything about my life.
33:10That just was like a dagger through my heart.
33:13I guess, Shamim, how did you feel about that moment?
33:18No, I love that letter.
33:20I love that letter so much that I have it pinned.
33:23I know, but Diane, it was because you weren't around.
33:26And then, yes, but it's part of the process.
33:31I mean, when your children grow up,
33:35it's part of the process.
33:36They test you.
33:38You test them.
33:40They thought, you know, I wasn't there enough.
33:42I was actually there more than they thought.
33:44I never left them mentally.
33:46When they went to boarding school, I wrote every day.
33:49You know, and then you go through a process,
33:52and then they grow up.
33:53And, I mean, my children and I, we talk twice a day at least.
34:00As someone who's a working mother
34:02and who travels a lot for work,
34:04reading that letter and sort of filming the relationship
34:07that Diane has with her children
34:09really taught me a lot about myself.
34:12Like, Diane and I would often say,
34:14well, 25 years from now, your children are going to be telling you
34:17that you were not there for them.
34:19Let's be honest.
34:20We're not like miracle workers.
34:22There's going to be a ball that's going to drop at some point
34:25as long as we pick it up and move on.
34:27And I think this film will resonate with working mothers everywhere
34:31because they will see a reflection of their own relationship
34:34with their children in the letters,
34:36in the moments that they feel like their children missed out on
34:40or they missed out on.
34:41Yeah, I just finally want to ask you, Diane,
34:43because you are in the love of your life now
34:45with your husband, Barry Diller.
34:47And what is it about life that makes you pleased, satisfied,
34:53at the age of 77, as you said,
34:55that you can say, yes, this is what it's all about?
34:59Well, first, it's family.
35:01I mean, when you look back, I mean, I'm now entering,
35:04hopefully entering the winter of my life.
35:07When you look back at the end,
35:09the most important thing is the family.
35:13And the thing I'm proudest of, my best samples, are my family.
35:17So, and then it's really honoring life.
35:22My mother did not die.
35:24She, from whatever miracle, she did not die.
35:28She survived.
35:29She put the torch of freedom in my hand.
35:32So all I did, tried to do all my life, is honoring life.
35:38Well, it's been an amazing life and it continues to be.
35:41And I just want to maybe end up with you, Sharmin,
35:43because you've done a lot of documentary
35:45and now you're going to be the first woman
35:47and the first woman of colour to direct a Star Wars.
35:52Yes, looking forward to that.
35:55No, but come on, more than that.
35:56That's gigantic.
35:57That's massive.
35:59Well, you know, I'll say this,
36:01that following your own yellow brick road
36:05has been very important to me.
36:08And I've charted my own sort of trajectory
36:11from the country that I come from right here to Hollywood.
36:14And I've been able to do that because a number of women
36:17have left the door open for me to walk through.
36:20And I think that is something that I hope will continue to happen.
36:24And that is something I hope I will be able to do
36:26for other women.
36:27Well, that's a really nice way to end.
36:29And that is really the reason why we did this movie.
36:33It's a lovely way to end.
36:35Diane von Furstenberg, Sharmin Obeid-Shinoy,
36:37thank you so much.
36:39Thank you.
36:40Thank you.
36:41Powerhouses both, Diane von Furstenberg,
36:43Woman in Charge, will be out on Hulu and Disney Plus
36:47next week, June 25th.
36:49Now, this week, the United States has been marking Juneteenth,
36:53the federal holiday that celebrates
36:55and marks the end of slavery.
36:57But nearly 160 years later, the financial inequality
37:01between African-Americans and their white peers remains stark,
37:05as our next guests lay out in their new book,
37:0815 Cents on the Dollar,
37:10How Americans Made the Black-White Wealth Gap.
37:13Co-authors Ebony Reid and Louise Story join Hari Sreenivasan
37:17to discuss possible solutions to closing that gap.
37:21Christiane, thanks.
37:22Louise Story, Ebony Reid, thank you both for joining us.
37:24Your book is called 15 Cents on the Dollar,
37:27How Americans Made the Black-White Wealth Gap.
37:30Ebony, let me start with you.
37:32Explain that 15 cents on the dollar phrase.
37:35Sure.
37:36Thank you for having us.
37:3715 cents is the typical amount of wealth a black family has
37:41in America for every $1 a typical white family has.
37:45And this is data from the Federal Reserve.
37:48Louise, why write this story in the first place?
37:51Well, Ebony and I were working together
37:53at the Wall Street Journal in the summer of 2020.
37:56And as colleagues and as friends,
37:58we started having many of the same conversations
38:00I'm sure you had and many people you know had,
38:02which is, wow, where do things stand on race today?
38:07And in particular, since we were at the Wall Street Journal,
38:09we were wondering, where do things stand on race and money?
38:13And so we read some books together.
38:15We looked up some data.
38:16I'll never forget when we crunched the data and came up with
38:19how many cents on the dollar it was.
38:21I called up Ebony and I said, did you realize this figure?
38:24And we thought it was fascinating.
38:27And we soon found out by looking around that there was not a book
38:31on black-white wealth gap through history.
38:33It didn't exist coming to the present.
38:35And we decided we were the perfect pair to write it.
38:38Louise, I can understand the context of what was happening
38:41with the pandemic and the murder of George Floyd,
38:44why it was resonant to think about that.
38:48But, you know, you can also say that there's a wealth gap
38:51between the very rich Americans and average Americans, right?
38:54What was fascinating to you about kind of the dimension of raceness?
38:59Well, actually, there is a more severe wealth gap among races
39:05than there are just among white Americans.
39:07So you're correct.
39:08There's a distributional effect that affects all people
39:11and there is a wealth gap among white Americans.
39:14But when you look at white versus black Americans
39:17at every income level, there is a wealth gap.
39:21And so white Americans, even those who have less money
39:24than the richest white Americans, still have more wealth
39:28compared to black Americans with their same income.
39:32And frankly, that was fascinating to me because, you know,
39:35I grew up in the 1980s.
39:37I remember when Martin Luther King Day became a holiday
39:40in much the same sort of celebratory way as Juneteenth
39:43just became a holiday.
39:45And I really grew up hearing that the civil rights movement
39:48had worked and that things, you know, had been solved.
39:52And so for me to understand in the numbers,
39:55and I have been a financial editor and a financial reporter
39:59all my career, so to understand from the numbers
40:02that there's still such a big gap, I thought it was noteworthy
40:06and that more people should understand it.
40:09Ebony, you choose to focus the book and the stories in the book
40:12around Atlanta.
40:13Why did you focus on this city?
40:15I mean, you go back really all the way to race riots in 1906
40:20and further on how this wealth gap translates
40:24into how we see a modern American city.
40:27Right.
40:28Atlanta has been considered, you know, the black mecca
40:30because of its large population of black Americans there.
40:34And a lot of people feel like, you know, that's a place
40:37because of opportunity that black Americans can make it.
40:40Now, in our book, we have a chapter on the two Atlantas
40:43and we really shine a light on, you know, the black wealth gap
40:49because there is a difference between, you know,
40:51black Americans who are doing well economically
40:54and the experiences of those who are not.
40:56And so because our book covers people, black Americans,
40:59from all economic strata, people will be able to see
41:03the differences in addition to understanding
41:06about the black-white wealth gap.
41:08Louise, you follow Greenwood Bank.
41:11I mean, for people outside of Atlanta
41:13and who might not be aware of it,
41:15why was this bank significant?
41:18I mean, this was an attempt to try to right some wrongs.
41:23Greenwood Bank, as it was first called,
41:25was set up in the summer of 2020 by, first of all,
41:29notable people, you know, the rapper Killer Mike.
41:32Michael Render, he goes by Killer Mike.
41:34He just won three Grammys.
41:36He set it up in partnership with Andrew Young,
41:39a former mayor of Atlanta and a civil rights leader.
41:43So they're famous and people admire them.
41:45And they said that the mission of this new company
41:48would be to help close racial wealth gaps.
41:52So that really excited and interested people.
41:55We talked to people who had been out at many demonstrations
41:58in the summer of 2020.
42:00And yes, they were demonstrating about the murder
42:02of George Floyd, but they were also demonstrating
42:05around systemic inequities.
42:08And money was on many people's minds.
42:10And so this offered a solution.
42:12People across the entire country signed up.
42:14This is a national company.
42:17It's a FinTech actually, which is a technology company
42:20that is a banking platform.
42:22They were very excited and they were hoping
42:24that Greenwood would be able to make lending
42:28and investing much more inclusive
42:30of Black and Hispanic people.
42:34Did it work?
42:36So far, Greenwood has not had the traction
42:39and the effect that people were hoping for at the beginning.
42:43But I will say, you know, startups take a long time
42:47to come to fruition.
42:48The story is not fully told.
42:50We think the founders had really good intentions,
42:53but it's a hard path to pursue to change things.
42:56And just remember, you know,
42:58the whole financial infrastructure really is set up
43:01and run by, you know, largely white-owned entities.
43:04So for something to come in and try to do something
43:07with Black capital, it's difficult to change things.
43:10Ebony, you have a character in the book, Tandrea Dixon.
43:13She says,
43:14It's more difficult for Black entrepreneurs
43:16to get their business started.
43:17Black Americans have fewer contacts
43:19who can help form business partnerships and invest.
43:22And part of it is getting a business loan.
43:25Numerous studies have shown that Black business owners
43:28have not been treated equally.
43:30Black Americans are not offered as many credit options
43:33as white borrowers.
43:34And even when Black Americans become entrepreneurs,
43:37they sometimes struggle to get capital
43:40to support their operations.
43:42What were the experiences that she was sharing with you
43:46about this inequity?
43:47So, Tandrea, she was trying to raise up
43:49her family's economic fortunes.
43:51Her family has farmland in North Carolina,
43:53and she was trying to figure out what to do with that farmland
43:56and how to translate that into, you know,
43:59an economic mobility movement for her family.
44:02She talked with us about, you know,
44:04her struggles, you know, as an entrepreneur,
44:06but I'd like to also highlight some other struggles
44:09that she faced.
44:10She wanted to become a homeowner because, you know,
44:12that's one of the drivers, you know,
44:14for wealth in our country.
44:15And after three years of trying,
44:17she faced some issues with unemployment
44:19at the same time that she was also trying
44:21to start a business.
44:22She still hadn't been able to purchase a home
44:24three years later.
44:25Louise, one of the characters we meet in the book
44:27is a man named Brooke Bacon, who is Black,
44:30and he's married to a white woman.
44:32And even in the dynamic of just this interracial relationship,
44:37you're able to tease out the different types
44:39of financial trend lines going back in history
44:42through their families.
44:44Yes.
44:45Brooke and his wife, Shayla,
44:47were a really interesting example.
44:49We were actually able to trace back their family lines
44:52back to the 1860s.
44:54And there's data we run through the whole book
44:57on the size of the Black-white wealth gap.
44:59And right after 1860,
45:02the average white family had 58 times the wealth
45:06of the average Black family.
45:08And it turned out when we traced Shayla's family back
45:11and when we traced Brooke's family back,
45:13so a white family back and a Black family back,
45:16the ratio of their wealth was 58 to one.
45:19Wow.
45:20So here we had this couple living today
45:22and their prior generations were right at the average
45:25of what happened to our country.
45:27And so we understood through their grandparents,
45:30their great-grandparents, all the way,
45:32the different things that had happened with them.
45:34And Shayla's family is not a super rich family,
45:38but there were things that she'd been able to do,
45:40her parents had been able to do,
45:42that were different from Brooke.
45:44And they really go through a racial reckoning
45:47in the narrative and the storyline of our book
45:51because there was a terrible tragedy in the summer of 2020.
45:56Brooke's father was shot by a police officer.
46:00And so we followed the story of what they did
46:05to come to terms with that.
46:06We went on a justice walk with them.
46:09It was a 63-mile justice walk and heard the story.
46:12And in reflecting with them over the years,
46:14we had many interviews.
46:16At one point, Shayla said to us,
46:19she hadn't realized, but in her being a white person
46:23and her marrying a Black person,
46:24the way she put it was she had taken on systemic debt.
46:28And she was referring to the student loans
46:32that Brooke had not paid off at that point.
46:35But it was interesting hearing both of their perspectives
46:38of how their lives and their finances
46:41and the legacy of their races were intertwined
46:44in their marriage.
46:46Ebony, this tragedy that Louise just mentioned,
46:50that led to a financial windfall for Brooke.
46:55What happened to that money?
46:58Well, Brooke took that money that he was awarded
47:00from the state of Georgia,
47:02and he shared it with some of his relatives.
47:05He had relatives that had helped bury his father,
47:09and he also wanted to help his mom.
47:12And then he also was able to save that money,
47:15and he talks with us about how it set him up
47:19for generational wealth for his children.
47:21So he's also saving a portion of that
47:24to help his family in the future.
47:27But of course, no amount of money
47:29can ever replace a loved one.
47:32Louise, one of the people in Brooke's father's case
47:36was James Woodall, who at the time
47:39was the president of the NAACP in Georgia,
47:42and he served eight years in the military.
47:44But you really point out all these structural disadvantages
47:49even in their own lives.
47:51James Woodall was a rising star in the NAACP.
47:54You probably saw him on television in 2020
47:57because he was out there talking about
48:00some of the different police shootings and cases that year.
48:04And we examined his family's whole trajectory and his life.
48:10And when he was a child,
48:12his mom was moving him around all the time.
48:15They moved many, many times a year
48:19as they struggled and as she struggled
48:21to pay the rent in many places.
48:24Sometimes when she needed to get credit
48:26to keep on the electricity,
48:28she used his social security number
48:30or his sibling's social security number.
48:32So when he became an adult, he already had tarnished credit.
48:36She took out student loans
48:38in order to have some funding to help feed her children.
48:42And his mother, Stefana,
48:45I think a lot of readers will really empathize with her.
48:49James Woodall's story is very moving
48:52and it helps you understand.
48:53Sometimes you see someone at the forefront
48:55out there at the front of the line for the NAACP
48:57and you don't know their story.
48:59And he's lived a story of struggles.
49:02And one of the things that comes through
49:05when you follow his story
49:06is that he pushed inside the NAACP for change.
49:09He pushed for the NAACP to pay more of its state leaders.
49:14Many of these positions are volunteer roles,
49:16but when he pushed for reform,
49:18he really ruffled some feathers.
49:20And so his story is a good one to read.
49:23Ebony, if you could,
49:26for people who haven't been kind of paying attention
49:28to the structural forces of what reinforced
49:32and what created these wealth gaps.
49:33I mean, going back in Woodall's case
49:35to his grandfather and the GI Bill
49:39all the way to redlining.
49:41What are some of the big kind of structural causes
49:47for an increase in this Black-white wealth gap?
49:50Well, I think we have to go all the way back
49:52to the beginning when Black Americans were enslaved people
49:55because that is the beginning of working and not being paid
50:00when we think about the Black-white wealth gap.
50:02And then as we move through history
50:04as Louise and I cover in this book,
50:06people will see points where programs were in place.
50:10Sometimes they were exclusionary,
50:12but sometimes there were programs
50:14that were not properly set up in a way
50:18for Black Americans to participate or to thrive in them.
50:22So you mentioned the GI Bill,
50:23and that's a really good one to mention.
50:25When it was set up to benefit veterans of World War II,
50:30it was for all veterans, regardless of race.
50:33But it was not administered at a federal level,
50:36so it was administered in local communities.
50:38And because of that,
50:39and because there was discrimination
50:41on the local level in some communities,
50:44many Black Americans,
50:45the vast amount that were veterans
50:48and tried to use the bill were not able to.
50:51And so there are some estimates
50:53that like less than 3% of Black Americans
50:57were able to use the GI Bill for housing.
50:59It was, of course, set up for housing, education,
51:03and also the ability to start businesses.
51:06In our book, we have many families,
51:09more than half a dozen that we interviewed
51:11that told us their family stories
51:13about how they were not able to use the GI Bill,
51:16which contributed to the setup
51:19of white middle class in our country.
51:21And so when we think about that,
51:23this was a point in history
51:25where Black Americans,
51:27they were just not able to take advantage of this benefit
51:30that would have had an economic impact
51:32for many of them that were veterans and their families.
51:35Ebony, both of you have done a fantastic job
51:38of laying out what got us here,
51:40but you also go kind of a step further.
51:42You do have a list of different types of solutions
51:45that you think can help improve this problem.
51:47So if you can summarize some of those for us.
51:51Sure.
51:52So one of our personal recommendations for people
51:56is that at some point in their lives,
51:58they consider working on a project or an initiative
52:01with a person who is different from them
52:04so that they can understand
52:05another person's lived experience
52:07and some of the issues that they're facing today in society.
52:12Louise and I are an example of this
52:14because not only have we worked together on this book
52:18and we may appear to people with the visual eye
52:21that she is white and I'm Black,
52:23but we also had to work through geographic differences
52:27to create this book.
52:28I live in Kansas City, Missouri.
52:30She's based on the East Coast.
52:32We had to work through family structure differences.
52:35She's married and has three children.
52:37I am single and was widowed in the pandemic.
52:39And so that caused us to really have to think through
52:43what does it mean to be equitable
52:45and how would we pay for expenses related to the book,
52:49spend our time.
52:50And we just think if more Americans
52:52were able to have this experience,
52:54that it would influence how they think about everything
52:57in our country from affordable housing
52:59and student loans and other policies
53:01if they could just understand the experience of other people.
53:05And Louise, you are both choosing to return
53:11the profits from this book to different causes.
53:15Explain that.
53:17Yes.
53:18Well, the book covers many things,
53:20but one of the things it does cover
53:21is how sometimes white businesses or white entities
53:25have taken advantage of Black Americans.
53:28And I'm really grateful for the time and the stories
53:33that the people in our book shared with us.
53:35They shared their stories to make an impact.
53:38Of course, as journalists,
53:39we do not compensate people for their stories.
53:42That's a standard journalism practice.
53:44And so I just decided early on
53:47that I wanted to volunteer completely on this project.
53:50And so this has been a three-year
53:51volunteer project for me.
53:52And what I mean by that is that I've donated
53:55all profits that I'm making from the book
53:57and I've pledged to do that permanently.
53:59Ebony has also donated a share
54:01and we are doing this to make a difference.
54:04Our number one goal is we want to make 15 cents on the dollar
54:09a nationally recognized statistic.
54:11We think that if more Americans knew this figure,
54:15they would think differently
54:16about so many important issues in our society.
54:19It was important for us, for people to know
54:22that we weren't just talking with them about their stories,
54:25but that we also wanted to give back.
54:27We wanted to contribute.
54:28And so it was a very easy decision to make
54:33to say we want to support causes that are tied to education,
54:37journalism, Black Americans.
54:39So on our site, 15cents.info,
54:42not only can people learn more about the book,
54:44but they can also learn about the events
54:46that we're having around the country
54:48as community symposiums.
54:49We've been having them since February around the country.
54:52We have many more stops to make before July 1,
54:55but people can also read about the nonprofits
54:57that we're also supporting through this book.
55:00The book is called 15 Cents on the Dollar,
55:02How Americans Made the Black-White Wealth Gap.
55:05Louise Story, Ebony Reid, thank you both for joining us.
55:07Thank you.
55:08Thank you.
55:09And finally tonight, a tale of teamwork,
55:12hope and Beluga whales.
55:14As Russia continues its devastating assault on Ukraine,
55:18cities close to front lines aren't just having
55:21to move their human populations,
55:23but the animals in peril too.
55:25Creatures like 15-year-old Plumbia
55:28and 14-year-old Miranda,
55:30two Beluga whales housed in a Kharkiv zoo.
55:33This week, a daring effort led by a team of experts
55:37saw the whales move to Odessa
55:39and then fly off to Valencia, Spain,
55:42where they reached their new home, an aquarium,
55:44in the early hours of Wednesday morning.
55:47Safe and sound.
55:49That is it for now.
55:50Thank you for watching and goodbye from London.