Legal analyst Carrie Cordero on SCOTUS’ ruling on Idaho’s abortion law. Columnist and author Simon Kuper on the French elections. Two of Harry Belafonte’s mentees discuss the new film “Following Harry,” which charts the last years of Belafonte’s life. Award-winning journalist Imara Jones on her new documentary series “American Problems, Trans Solutions.”
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello, everyone, and welcome to Amanpour & Company.
00:07Here's what's coming up.
00:09France gears up for Macron's big gamble, baiting the far right at this weekend's snap elections.
00:16I speak to Financial Times columnist Simon Cooper, plus the latest earth-shaking decisions
00:22from the Supreme Court.
00:24I'm here because you called.
00:28I'm here because I am part of your history.
00:34Following Harry, the next generation continuing the work of legendary musician and civil rights
00:40icon Harry Belafonte.
00:42I'm joined by activist Carmen Perez-Jordan and singer-songwriter Aloe Blacc.
00:48Also ahead.
00:49Roughly now, half the states in the United States have some sort of anti-trans legislation
00:55on the books.
00:56Combating trans hate.
00:58Award-winning journalist and founder of Translash Media, Imara Jones, speaks to Hari Sreenivasan
01:04about her new docuseries, American Problems, Trans Solutions.
01:19Amanpour & Company is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Atwood and
01:34Leslie Williams, Candace King Weir, The Family Foundation of Layla and Mickey Strauss, Mark
01:41J. Blechner, The Philemon M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, Charles Rosenblum, Ku and
01:51Patricia Ewan, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities.
01:57Barbara Hope Zuckerberg, additional support provided by these funders and by contributions
02:04to your PBS station from viewers like you.
02:07Thank you.
02:10Welcome to the program, everyone.
02:11I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.
02:13This weekend, France heads to the polls and the far right looks set to come out on top.
02:19President Emmanuel Macron threw the dice with this snap election after his centrist party
02:24was trounced by Marine Le Pen's national rally in recent European parliamentary elections.
02:30Correspondent Melissa Bell has more on how Le Pen has reshaped the party's dark origins
02:36into an apparently palatable mainstream alternative.
02:41It was, for France's national rally, a historic win.
02:45The European elections marked the first time the hard right had won a poll nationally.
02:51Now, the party is campaigning for seats in France's parliament and a shot at government.
02:58The party was long demonized, but that's the work that Marine Le Pen and her team have
03:02managed to do, to show that we are a party capable of governing in a party that is democratic.
03:10No mean feat for a woman who inherited the party from her father, the Holocaust denier
03:15Jean-Marie Le Pen, who founded the national rally or national front, as it was known,
03:20with former French members of Hitler's SS, a history steeped in fascism that was credited
03:26with long keeping the party from power, even when it got close.
03:31France is a country, after all, heavily marked by the horrors of Nazi Germany.
03:36Amongst those atrocities, what happened here at Ouradour-sur-Glane 80 years ago, when an
03:41entire village was rounded up by the SS and killed in cold blood?
03:47The village, frozen in time, left exactly as it was on that fateful day 80 years ago,
03:53in order for the world to remember.
03:56But in the new village, rebuilt after the war, the European elections saw the national
04:00rally come first here too.
04:02Here, the national rally did a big score, like in other rural communities.
04:09Times have changed, the means of communication are no longer the same, societal issues have
04:14evolved too, and there's been a detoxification of the extremes, of the far right.
04:22The key also for the national rally, the young, who voted massively in favour of a party that
04:27few in the past would have admitted voting for, but that has now gained something that
04:32long eluded it.
04:34Legitimacy, that's it.
04:37We're no longer ostracised, we're taken seriously.
04:40They said that 30% of French voted for us.
04:42French people who love their country, who don't want to see it change and get eaten
04:46by globalisation.
04:49A message that looks set to resonate in a parliamentary poll, that could see the national
04:53rally gain not just legitimacy, but power itself.
05:00Now in a moment, we're going to have a deeper dive into the political landscape in France
05:05and across parts of Europe.
05:07One of the things that the French President Emmanuel Macron did earlier this year was
05:11to enshrine a woman's constitutional right to her own reproductive health, including
05:17an abortion in the constitution, fearing that if a far right government ever came to power,
05:23they would take those rights away from French women.
05:26Now of course, this scenario has been playing out in the United States, with the legal tangle
05:31over abortion.
05:32And today, America's highest court has ruled on Idaho's strict abortion law, temporarily
05:38allowing them in medical emergencies.
05:41So consider this level of conditionality that I've just read out, and the news interest.
05:46In a nation where women had the constitutional right to decide their own reproductive health
05:51matters for themselves for five decades, until just two years ago, when the majority
05:57conservative Supreme Court, mostly appointed by then President Trump, overturned Roe versus
06:03Wade.
06:04Legal analyst Carrie Cordero joins me now from Washington to explain the significance
06:10of today's ruling.
06:12So Carrie, give me the significance of it, because it seems to be a very narrow decision
06:18with a lot of conditions attached to it.
06:21Tell me what it actually means.
06:22Yeah, that's right.
06:24So in today's decision by the Supreme Court, what they really did is delay making eventual
06:31decisions if it comes back to them on the legality of Idaho, one state's laws that bans
06:39abortion unless the life of the mother is at risk.
06:45And so the Supreme Court had stepped into this case earlier this year and had allowed
06:52the Idaho law to go forward.
06:55And now what the Supreme Court has done is it said, actually, we think we intervened
07:00too quickly, and so we are going to step back out of this case.
07:05But we're not actually going to make the substantive decisions about it just yet.
07:11So what does this mean?
07:13One of the associate justices, Katanji Brown, said that this is not a victory for Idaho.
07:18It's not a victory for the patients in Idaho.
07:21It is a delay, as you've laid out.
07:22What does this mean for the women there?
07:25So as a practical matter, right now, post this decision, the Idaho law that is more
07:32restrictive is set aside.
07:35And if there is a woman who needs the care under the provision of federal law that applies,
07:44that she will be able to receive that care.
07:46The Idaho law would restrict that and would not enable a hospital or a doctor to provide
07:52the care that she needs if her health is in danger, not necessarily her life, but her
07:57health is in danger.
07:59And so that is what the practical impact is.
08:02And again, it will go back to lower courts now.
08:06And so it is foreseeable that this is really just a temporary reprieve and not any type
08:12of resolution to the issue.
08:15So what do you, I suppose, surmise?
08:19Was it that the Supreme Court didn't want to do yet another controversial decision in
08:24the midst of an election campaign or what?
08:28It's hard to say that it was tied to the election year in particular, but it does seem
08:34that in this particular case, they just decided that it wasn't yet ripe for their decision-making.
08:41And it seems like some of the justices viewed that they had stepped into the case much too
08:47quickly.
08:48Now, Justice Jackson and Justice Alito, in the pieces that they wrote, both said that
08:55they think that the Supreme Court should have actually resolved what the conflict in
08:59this case was, which was whether or not the federal law preempts or should hold over the
09:07Idaho law.
09:09Both of them would come to complete opposite decisions as to how that would be resolved,
09:15but they both wrote that they thought it should have been resolved.
09:18But instead, most of the justices just decided to step out of the case for now and send it
09:24back to the lower courts.
09:26So Keri Kudera, it really does sound so tangled legally, and each state has different rules
09:34and regulations, leaving American women in really a big state of limbo.
09:38So I wonder what you think of what countries like France have done in order to precisely
09:44prevent this kind of removal of women's independence and their own health care rights.
09:51Well, so the United States, of course, does not have this right to an abortion or any
09:57type of explicit privacy right or women's human right that might be specified in our
10:05Constitution.
10:07And what the Supreme Court did two years ago in the Dobbs decision is it took what had
10:11been at least a Supreme Court decision that seemed settled, as you mentioned in your lead-up,
10:18for 50 years in the United States.
10:21And what the Supreme Court said is it said, actually, that didn't really settle it.
10:24We think it should go back.
10:25The decision should go back to the states on this issue of what the Supreme Court tends
10:30to describe as a moral issue or a culture issue.
10:35And what has happened as a practical matter, Chris John, is that the last two years have
10:39been more confusing as more and more states have implemented laws that are specific to
10:46various aspects of reproductive health or women's health.
10:50It has caused more confusion since their Dobbs decision, not less.
10:55And with President, former President Trump on this side of the issue and President Biden
10:59on the other side of the issue, it is a major election issue, I guess.
11:05Certainly it was in the midterms.
11:06But can I just ask you, finally, are you surprised that, as people are describing, it's kind
11:12of a half issue or a half decision that the Supreme Court handed down?
11:17And they've so far avoided some of the more direct cases in front of them, or at least
11:23they've delayed them up until now, involving President Trump, like the immunity case and
11:28other such things.
11:29When do you expect that to come down?
11:31Well, it could, on the immunity case, it could be tomorrow or it could be early next week.
11:36And so I think we don't know exactly what day the Supreme Court doesn't announce in
11:40advance which specific day it's going to release opinions on.
11:44It does seem that next week it will finally wrap up this particular term.
11:49And we know that there are at least two cases affecting the former president.
11:54One is the immunity case, which is significant to him and to the institution of the presidency,
11:59whether a president is immune from prosecution.
12:02And then there's another case which pertains to obstruction, which would affect not only
12:07former President Trump, because if the court agrees with the petitioner in that case, it
12:13could potentially dismiss two of the counts against former President Trump.
12:17And it also would affect hundreds of the cases of individuals prosecuted in connection with
12:22January 6th.
12:23So both of those cases, we're still waiting for the Supreme Court to rule on, will be
12:27sometime in the next few days.
12:30Carrie Codera, thank you so much indeed for helping us navigate some of these complexities.
12:35And now let's get back to those upcoming elections in France.
12:38And I'm joined by the Financial Times columnist Simon Cooper.
12:42His new book is Impossible City, Paris in the 21st Century.
12:47Welcome to the program.
12:48Happy to be here.
12:49You have spent a long time, I've read your weekend columns, talking about, for want of
12:57a better word, centrist politics and how the center can sort of hold.
13:03And you've done a lot of talk post-Brexit and the troubles and all the rest of it.
13:08And I just wonder, as somebody who spent so long in France and you're now a French citizen,
13:14you've just written that sort of love letter to Paris, which is a great city.
13:18What do you think has caused this moment where the far right for the first time could actually
13:24win a parliamentary election?
13:26Well, the far right has been like the wolf howling outside the door for 50 years.
13:31And the howling has got louder and louder, especially under Marine Le Pen, who sought
13:34power more aggressively than her father, previous leader, did.
13:37And I think that there's a resentment against Paris that's built into it, that's a very
13:42big part of it.
13:44So France, like the UK, is a country with a wealthy capital that's sucking in investments
13:49and jobs, that sucks in young, ambitious people.
13:52And France is a country where people farmed for millennia, and that kind of died in the
13:57last 80 years.
13:58So a lot of the French territory is abandoned, and people feel left, abandoned by the republic.
14:04There's no bus service, there's no post office, there's no doctor, there's no school.
14:08And that's part of this enormous resentment against Paris, and Macron has become the embodiment
14:11of that.
14:12And then there's a great discomfort about immigration.
14:14I think the French are more uncomfortable about immigration, on average, than the British.
14:19And the RN, the far right, expresses that.
14:22I wonder, because I think you wrote in the paper last week or so about the famous French
14:29soccer player, football player, Kylian Mbappé, and what he said regarding these upcoming
14:35elections.
14:36And we know that in the parliamentary, or rather in the European elections, young people
14:42turned out and voted in large numbers for the Le Pen party.
14:46And Kylian Mbappé appeared to be addressing the issue.
14:50I'm just going to play this and see what you think about it today.
14:56We know we are in a very important moment in the history of our country, an unusual
15:00situation.
15:01And that is why I appeal to all the French people, and above all, to the young generation.
15:07I think we are a generation that can make a difference.
15:10Today we see that the extremes are knocking on the door of power, and we have the opportunity
15:16to shape the future of our country.
15:20Do you think that will be a call that will be heeded?
15:26Does he have influence like that?
15:27It's a remarkable statement.
15:29The captain of a national team who's expected to maintain neutrality, who as a black man
15:35is in France always under suspicion from a large part of the population of not really
15:39being for France, of not really being even French.
15:43He comes out, and he doesn't say it in so many words, but he's saying, don't vote for
15:46our rights.
15:47And I think he's not appealing to young people in general.
15:50I think he's appealing especially to younger people of immigrant origin in the suburbs
15:55of Paris and other big cities who have low turnout, who haven't voted much.
15:59And he's saying, for God's sake, get out and vote.
16:03Because if the Front National, the Solomon National, as it's now called, especially with
16:07its very kind of explicitly anti-Muslim ethos, I mean, so many French people are of Muslim
16:14origin.
16:15This is really a nightmare situation.
16:18Their position on Islam is more radical than Donald Trump's.
16:21Wow.
16:22And that reminds us of one of the first actions he took when he made this ban for several
16:29Muslim-majority countries coming into the United States.
16:33You know, what happened?
16:36How did...
16:37Well, there are two questions.
16:38I mean, I remember covering the election of 2002 when her father, Jean-Marie Le Pen, who
16:42was...
16:43Wasn't he a Waffen SS officer?
16:45The co-founder of the party was an SS officer.
16:47Jean-Marie Le Pen was too young to have had that opportunity.
16:50He was the co-founder.
16:51OK.
16:52And, you know, he called, he called the Holocaust a detail of history.
16:58And he got very far in those elections in 2002.
17:01And then President Chirac got a coalition together to stop him.
17:06I think in France they call it, you know, a cordon sanitaire, but basically a safety
17:11net.
17:12Is that what Macron is gambling on, that everybody will come towards and save the day?
17:21It may have been one of the things he was hoping for.
17:23It's not going to happen.
17:24Because the party of Jean-Marie Le Pen came from that kind of 1940s tradition.
17:30Many of its early followers had their roots in Vichy, the French collaboration of World
17:34War II.
17:35Jean-Marie Le Pen, as you say, was an explicit anti-Semite who repeatedly said, the Holocaust
17:39is a detail of history.
17:41And that just went too far for most French people.
17:43They couldn't vote for somebody who recalled the kind of pro-Nazi Vichy regime.
17:47And Marine Le Pen has sanitized that part of the party.
17:51She doesn't do anti-Semitism.
17:53She says she loves Jews.
17:54Her focus is against Islam.
17:56So she's removed that link with the World War II past that was just a bridge too far
18:00for many voters.
18:02She kind of has presented a party that's against Islam, it's against broadly African immigration,
18:07but doesn't have that kind of pro-Nazi tinge to it.
18:10And so there isn't the terror of her, or there is, but it's much less widespread than
18:15it was for her father.
18:17What do you think Marine Le Pen would do if they become a majority in Parliament in terms
18:22of what kind of policies would they be able to influence domestically?
18:28I mean, I don't think they're going to get a majority, but of course they might.
18:32And what they would do is they would remove birthright citizenship.
18:37So if you were born in France, but your parents were not French, then you would not become
18:41a citizen even if you lived your whole life in France.
18:43They would go to Brussels and say, any treaty we don't like, any European Union treaty we
18:47don't like, we're just going to ignore.
18:49And by the way, give us lots of money back, we're not going to lend any more.
18:52Asylum seekers, we're going to spend a lot of money, kind of fantasy money.
18:58We don't know where it's going to come from, but we're going to cut VAT on energy, and
19:02maybe we're going to reduce the pension age.
19:04There's going to be a lot of unfunded spending, which is going to terrify financial markets.
19:08And because cost of living and those kind of economic issues, as you mentioned, is top
19:12of mind for many voters, do you think Macron's gamble that should they come in as a prime
19:18minister or whatever to show people, well, you voted for them, you know, let's see how
19:23they actually govern.
19:26Do you think, given what you've just said, could they stumble in government?
19:31I mean, every government in France ends up being despised quite rapidly.
19:35And so that may well happen to them as well.
19:38But they can always blame Macron.
19:40They can accurately say, well, he created such a high budget deficit, we couldn't do
19:45all this kind of Santa Claus spending that we had promised.
19:49And they'll blame the situation they inherited and maybe successfully, I mean, give the far
19:54right a spell in government and they'll be exposed.
19:55It hasn't worked for Donald Trump, hasn't worked for Giorgio Maloney.
19:59So I'm really not sure that once they've got their foot in the door, that they'll leave
20:03the door.
20:04I was going to ask you about Giorgio Maloney because she seems to be the template, the
20:07Italian prime minister, of how you can be part of a legacy fascist party and yet be
20:13acceptable on the world stage while implementing pragmatism on the world stage, but a lot more
20:20conservative or extreme policies at home.
20:23Yeah.
20:24So, I mean, one thing that they would be able to do is say to police, you know what?
20:28If you shoot a black kid, we're not going to make any trouble about that.
20:32Just do what you want.
20:33At a demonstration, you want to hit the demonstrators.
20:35We're really not going to be fussed about that.
20:37So you can take away money from public television so that you then get this US-style situation
20:43where everybody has their own truth.
20:45So there's a lot of things that you can do quite quickly.
20:47But I think even if they get the prime minister on July 7th, that's not the crucial step.
20:54The crucial moment would be 2027, the presidential election.
20:58Because being the French president, that's the most powerful job in Europe.
21:01It's much bigger than being Italian prime minister in a coalition.
21:03And bigger than Germany, which also has a rising far-right, you know, AFD?
21:07Well, the thing is, in Germany, you pretty much always have a coalition government.
21:11So any government is constrained.
21:12And what about the extreme left in France?
21:15Because there's the extreme right, and then there's this extreme left, and there's a whole
21:19coalition of the leftist and socialist parties.
21:21Even the former socialist president, Francois Hollande, has joined.
21:26When you think that the FN won't get a majority, who do you think will go?
21:31How do you think it'll break down?
21:32Well, the thing is, the far-left hates Macron.
21:35The centre-left doesn't really like Macron either.
21:37And Macron is the kind of most detested figure in French politics.
21:40But the action is moving away from him.
21:42What's possible is, if you add up the Macron party plus the left coalition, they might
21:46get 50%.
21:48And then you have to say, well, OK, let's find a compromised prime minister.
21:51And who would that prime minister be?
21:52Maybe Francois Hollande.
21:53Interesting.
21:54You know, it's kind of in between.
21:55Well, he's pretty much – well, he was hated.
21:58He was only a first – a one-termer.
22:00Yeah.
22:01Being hated plus age makes you a national treasure.
22:04OK.
22:05What about your book?
22:06You have written this amazing book.
22:08You love France.
22:09You love Paris.
22:10What are you trying to say there, given the situation we're in right now?
22:15I try and describe a city that is not just the postcard city that we know with the Eiffel
22:19Tower and Notre Dame.
22:20It's all there, and the food is wonderful.
22:22Paris is not that little city of two million.
22:24Paris is 12 million people.
22:25It includes the suburbs, which are a fascinating world, which are now being united with the
22:29main city for the first time in history, 68 new metro stations, many of them coming online
22:33for the Olympics.
22:34I'm really positive and optimistic about Paris, but a far-right government would throw
22:39everything off.
22:40Wow.
22:42This is – you have an incredible assignment being there right now.
22:45Fascinating.
22:46Yeah.
22:47Simon Cooper, thank you so much indeed.
22:48And next, the longtime struggle for freedom and social justice in the United States.
22:52For decades, the legendary singer and actor Harry Belafonte worked tirelessly to fight
22:58racism, carrying on the legacy of his friend Martin Luther King Jr.
23:02For the final 12 years of his life, Belafonte collaborated on a documentary to pass on the
23:08lessons he learned from a lifetime of activism.
23:11The result is following Harry, and here's a clip.
23:15I'm here because you called.
23:19I'm here because I am part of your history.
23:25You called, and I'm here to tell you, those of us who have been on this campaign, who
23:32have been in this struggle for over a century, are delighted, happy to be part of this moment.
23:41I believe that we will win.
23:45What I recognized was Mr. Belafonte wanted to be a bridge that so many generations of
23:51young people could walk over that connected them and us to the promise and the unfinished
23:59work of his time.
24:01His appreciation and love and belief in the Dream Defenders at many times was the sole
24:09thing from keeping myself and I think other people from the brink of quitting.
24:15Like Philip Agnew speaking there, the film includes many of the younger generation Belafonte
24:20inspired and mentored, but also listened to, including Carmen Perez Jordan, an activist
24:27who now heads up the Gathering for Justice, an NGO that was founded by Belafonte, and
24:32the musician Aloe Blacc, who along with Carmen this month received the Harry Belafonte Voices
24:38for Social Justice Award.
24:40And they're joining me now from New York.
24:42Welcome both of you to the program.
24:44It is an extraordinary documentary.
24:48It's just so sort of real time, like a tutorial, like a lesson evolving before your eyes.
24:56So Carmen, let me ask you first, what made you even want to connect with Harry?
25:03What said to you, this is the person I need to talk to to continue my life of activism?
25:08Well, first of all, thank you so much for having us.
25:13And I don't necessarily think I asked myself that question.
25:16I was actually assigned to work for Mr. Belafonte through his mentee, Nana Alejandrez, who is
25:23the executive director of Barrios Unidos.
25:25And I was running the prison project and Mr. Belafonte was one of the guests inside Tracy
25:31Prison.
25:32And when I was invited to be part of what is now called the Gathering for Justice, he
25:37clearly wanted me to work for him because of the work I had done in prisons and the
25:41work I had done in the community.
25:43But you know, 20 years ago, I didn't know it was going to be a blessing to sit at his
25:48feet and to learn from him.
25:49And what I initially thought Mr. B was and who he was, was not necessarily anything that
25:56I discovered until I got to sit with him, until I got to be with him.
26:02And I moved to New York City to run the Gathering for Justice.
26:05And when you talk about him and everything that he taught us, I used to want to bottle
26:11it up.
26:12And following Harry now is the exposure of what I got for the last 14, 20 years of my
26:18life.
26:19And Alu Black, you are a young musician.
26:23There you were, you know, learning and also explaining to this veteran of the entertainment
26:29and the street struggle worlds, the worlds of that.
26:34What did you think when you first met him?
26:37What did you think you were going to get out of this collaboration?
26:40Well, when I first met Harry Belafonte, I thought that it would be an interesting moment
26:46to just learn from an elder.
26:49What I found was a friendship and one where he saw me as a mutual friend.
26:55We both were able to speak to each other on the level and learn from one another.
26:59And I'd say that, you know, in being with Harry and having Susan Rostock's camera follow
27:05us and see those conversations, I think it's extremely important for the world to see and
27:11watching Following Harry, to recognize that as he aged, he continued to stay connected
27:16to youth, continued to stay connected to activism and movement, and to instruct but
27:22also learn from us and instruct us to learn from the people who are suffering the most,
27:29the most vulnerable, and understand how best we could use our voices to empower them and
27:34make transformation, positive transformation.
27:37Yeah, and I really do think that two-way street is something that comes across so well.
27:42And it's so vital.
27:43It's not like you were being lectured to.
27:45It's not like, you know, you were also telling him, this veteran, what it was like now for
27:52your generations.
27:53And I want to just refer back, Carmen, to something you were just talking about, the
27:56Gathering for Justice that he founded.
27:59So we know that there's over-incarceration of black and brown young people in the United
28:03States, what some call, including in the program, the new Jim Crow.
28:07So it's led by the six principles that were outlined by Martin Luther King in a famous
28:12essay, A Pilgrimage to Nonviolence.
28:15And I want to play a little bit of Harry himself in the documentary talking about it.
28:21The Gathering came out of a deeper inquiry on my part about incarceration of young people
28:28and the injustice system.
28:30I do a lot of work in the lockup with a lot of young people because I remember with tremendous
28:40clarity what it was like to try to work your way out of a bad deal.
28:48So Carmen, you spoke a little bit about what, you know, what came out of those gatherings.
28:53But I wonder what you think has been achieved in the attempt to have more social justice
28:58in this regard, and also what you were able to tell him and vice versa about the march
29:05that you were responsible also for launching, which was the Women's March on the inauguration
29:10day of Donald Trump in 2017.
29:15There were so many lessons in my conversations with Mr. Belafonte.
29:19One of them was part of the six principles of King and nonviolence, and it was principle
29:25number three, attack the forces of evil, not people doing evil.
29:28And so when we were organizing the Women's March, the attack was not against Trump.
29:32It was actually creating pathways and entry points for all women to feel that they were
29:37connected to a movement, to something larger than themselves.
29:41And so Mr. Belafonte would sit with me and guide me through the lessons he learned through
29:47the original March on Washington.
29:48And so a lot of what we were able to do with the 2017 Women's March was really based on
29:53his guidance.
29:54He always said, meet people where they're at, champion them to your cause.
29:58He said, you know, there's a lane for everybody to get involved in the movement.
30:03And so when we were thinking about preparing the agenda, we needed to bring in artists
30:06like Aloe Blacc, Alicia Keys, other women who were demanding rights for women.
30:14And so, for me, it was this exchange, very similar to what Aloe is saying.
30:18We always had conversations.
30:20He consistently gave me a historical analysis.
30:23You will see that in Following Harry, where he talks about what happened with him and
30:28Dr. King.
30:29And those historical analysis and the conversations he had not only with Dr. King, but Eleanor
30:35Roosevelt and Nelson Mandela have allowed people like myself, Philip Agnew, Sean Pica,
30:43Ajad Monáe, others, to continue the legacy of those that came before us, but also not
30:49just their legacy, but to continue the work of Harry Belafonte.
30:53Following Harry is such an important film.
30:55It is exactly what we need in this moment.
30:59He discusses, and even though it took place in the last 10 years, everything is relevant
31:04to the political climate that we are currently in.
31:07And so there's a lot of gems that are being dropped.
31:10And like I said, I sat with him for close to 20 years.
31:13I'm so grateful.
31:15But now with Following Harry, the information that he shared with me is now going to be
31:19shared with the world.
31:21And I want to ask you about a particular speech that Harry made back in 2013 when he was,
31:27I believe he was being awarded at the NAACP.
31:31And he didn't just say thank you.
31:33He put everybody in the audience on notice.
31:36I'm just going to play an extract.
31:39Question is, where is the raised voice of black America?
31:45Why are we mute?
31:48Where are our leaders, our legislators?
31:59Where is the church?
32:05You know, really throwing the gauntlet down, I mean, he was not afraid to shine the spotlight
32:11and to turn the mirror on his own community.
32:15What did you think, Aloe, when you heard about that speech?
32:20What I thought was it was my turn to stand up and step into the light and be part of
32:27the change.
32:28Harry was calling on all of us to use our voices, our celebrity, our influence, our
32:34artistic expression.
32:36And so what I've been doing since then, putting together an album with the support of an organization
32:42called Stand Together, where all the songs are representative of and amplifying the work
32:49of people on the ground, community workers who are improving their environments and the
32:54people that they serve, organizations that are doing the hard work to better the lives
33:00of the most vulnerable.
33:02This is the way that we can show up as artists.
33:04And I look to all of my peers within the music industry, the film industry and other entertainment
33:10industries to use their voice, use your voice to speak truth to power.
33:15One of the things that Harry Belafonte always said was that artists are the gatekeepers
33:19of truth.
33:20And it was a quote that he got from his hero, Paul Robeson.
33:25And I want to ask you also, because he was cognizant that not all movements are a kumbaya.
33:32There's a lot of struggle within and internal disagreement within, certainly in the civil
33:36rights movement.
33:37And Carmen, I think you know clearly, because you were there, that there was a lot of conflict
33:42within the women's movement after that march.
33:45So he often said in the film and throughout his career, you know, was it worth it?
33:51Did everything I do mean anything?
33:53What did we change?
33:54I want to ask you that, Carmen, about what he said and what you think you can change.
34:02I absolutely feel it was worth it.
34:04You know, I want Mr. Belafonte and everybody to know that, you know, what he did was pave
34:09the way for so many of us.
34:11And one of the things that he had shared with me after—there was always conflict.
34:15There's conflict in every movement, right?
34:16But he said those who are working towards the liberation of our people are subject to
34:20friendship and support.
34:22Those who are being divisive are playing the enemy's game.
34:25And right now, in this moment, there's an opportunity for us to come together, to stand
34:29up for women's rights, to stand up for young people that are being impacted by houselessness,
34:36to stand up for individuals that are being impacted by poverty.
34:40And when—what Mr. Belafonte did really well is he gathered people.
34:44He brought people together.
34:46He was a bridge.
34:47And that's where I think there is hope.
34:49In this film, you will see that.
34:50If you are looking for answers, if you are looking for a way to feel hopeful again, following
34:57Harry is it.
34:58It is a clarion call for equity.
35:01We all have a role to play in this movement, whether we're involved in the women's movement,
35:06whether we're involved in the criminal legal system movement.
35:10There is a lane for us.
35:11And Mr. Belafonte just didn't impact those of us that are part of this film.
35:16He gathered so many young people, and there are young people all over this country, all
35:20over this world, that are continuing his legacy.
35:22And that is what I want to end with, because—yeah, Aloe, because we're in the midst of an election.
35:26Young people historically don't turn out in the numbers that they should.
35:30What do you think this time around?
35:34I think this time around, young people absolutely have to.
35:37The world depends on their action right now.
35:41And those are the people who can make the change.
35:45We are the ones that are going to be in charge of the future.
35:48We've got to step up.
35:50And we just heard that message from the great French soccer legend, Kylian Mbappé.
35:54They're undergoing a very crucial parliamentary election this weekend.
35:58And I think a lot of cultural leaders are trying to send that message out.
36:05So I don't know how many seconds I've got left, but just comment, two words, on what
36:10Harry Belafonte meant to you.
36:14Mr. Belafonte meant the world.
36:16He was my saving grace.
36:18And I'm really grateful for him and his mentorship throughout the years.
36:22And quickly from you, Aloe.
36:27Dramatic transformation.
36:28Find one good thing.
36:30That's the quote that I got from Harry via Bono, actually, in a conversation.
36:35One good thing.
36:36Great.
36:37Well, you've communicated that and following Harry does just that.
36:40Thank you both so much indeed for being with us.
36:43Now, standing up for the marginalized comes, of course, in many shapes and sizes.
36:48The last few years have seen record waves of legislation targeting the rights of transgender
36:53people.
36:54And next term, the Supreme Court will decide whether states can restrict gender-affirming
37:00care.
37:01But award-winning journalist Imara Jones has made it her mission to fight the narrative
37:05that disempowers the trans community.
37:08And she joins Hari Sreenivasan now to discuss her new documentary series, American Problems,
37:14Trans Solutions.
37:16This interview is part of Exploring Hate, our ongoing series that discusses the alarming
37:21increase in bias, injustice, and disinformation that threatens democracy and human rights.
37:28Christian, thanks.
37:29Imara Jones of Translash Media.
37:31Thanks so much for joining us.
37:32You know, I kind of want to do a little bit of an update.
37:35Last year, you joined us on the program.
37:37We talked a little bit about the different types of legislation working their way through
37:41different states in America, or I should say the legislation is focused against LGBTQ people.
37:46And I'm wondering, can you kind of update us on what the progress has been, what the
37:51landscape is across the country now?
37:53Yes.
37:54And I think that the interesting part of this story is the way in which most of these laws
38:01are targeted at trans people specifically.
38:04And while there are fewer than passed last year, that's for two main reasons, Hari.
38:10The first is that roughly now half the states in the United States have some sort of anti-trans
38:16legislation on the books, either sports or medical care or some other aspect.
38:23So that first wave of bills has been largely, sadly successful.
38:27And so what's happening now is what I've seen in my reporting on this over the last five
38:33years is that there's some years that there's experimentation on new types of laws.
38:38And we're seeing that this year, such as a law in Tennessee, which criminalizes parents
38:44or caretakers who wish to provide gender-affirming care for their teens outside of the state.
38:51They now can face criminal liability from the state.
38:55Or the fact that even in Missouri, for example, no chosen names and also preferred pronouns,
39:02even if parents consent to that, schools are not allowed to recognize either of those.
39:08And if a school individual does, they can be prosecuted as a felon and made to be put
39:12on the sex registry list and then lose their license.
39:16So I think what we're seeing is the laws being more insidious.
39:19And there's even another one in Florida that also allows for the transfer of custody in
39:24cases where there is one parent who is trans-affirming, the other one is not.
39:29It can be the basis to transfer custody of the kid to the parent who is not trans-supporting.
39:35And that even applies for people visiting outside of the state.
39:39So the laws are getting more invasive and the most intimate and sacred of relationships, mostly.
39:48So Imar, according to the dashboard that you have on your website, I'm reading that 604
39:55anti-LGBTQ bills were proposed in 2024, but only 42 have passed.
40:01So are we making a mountain out of a molehill?
40:05Or should we be thinking about this differently?
40:07I wish it was making a mountain out of a molehill.
40:11It would make this pride season so much easier and more festive.
40:16But I think that we have to understand that the volume of the bills actually underscores
40:22where the momentum is.
40:24And usually what I have seen from my reporting on this is that you'll have certain years
40:30where there seem to be less bills that are passing.
40:33But what's actually happening is an experimentation about the types of bills that will become
40:39the models for the surge in subsequent years, the surge in passage.
40:45The entire point is to acculturate us to these laws.
40:49So at first, people will be shocked at some of the things that I've said, but two or three
40:55years from now, if they keep hearing about it, it won't seem to be as shocking and therefore
41:01increases the likelihood of passage.
41:04And I have heard and I have had state legislators tell me directly that that is what they want.
41:12They understand that sort of slowly turning up the temperature over time makes the frog
41:18in the analogy not jump out of the water.
41:21And that's exactly what they're doing with these bills.
41:24Because, you know, like I said, half the states now have them.
41:27Additionally, a part of this acculturation and the passage is so that these issues will
41:32rise to the Supreme Court.
41:35Barbara Ehart, who is the state legislator from Idaho who introduced the first successful
41:41anti-transports bill that's become the model for all of the others, said to me clearly
41:46that she knew that this issue was going to go before the Supreme Court and that was her
41:50goal because there was a receptive, in her view, receptive court for these types of
41:56laws and this type of legislation.
41:59Amara, when you talk to people that are drafting these types of legislation, what is their
42:04core concern or belief?
42:07Is it a do they feel threatened by something?
42:10Is this a religious motivation?
42:12Why are these bills coming up?
42:14They don't believe that trans people are real.
42:20And specifically, they don't believe that trans kids are a fact.
42:27And consequently, their point of view is that there must be something unnatural and harmful
42:35that is making kids be trans and making adults be trans.
42:42And so for them, whatever that force is, and I've heard them describe it in various types
42:47of ways, some say it's the culture, some say that it's schools, some say it's a part
42:51of an international conspiracy to undermine America.
42:54And they say that with great, you know, great knowing inside of themselves.
43:00They then believe that these types of laws, no matter how harsh, no matter how disruptive,
43:08are justified.
43:09You know, when you mentioned the Supreme Court, I mean, the very act of choosing to hear a
43:15case is in itself an inkling of where the court is, right?
43:21I mean, you have to have at least five justices agree to hear it.
43:24And there's an important case that is making its way or will make its way to the next Supreme
43:30Court.
43:31Tell us a little bit about that.
43:32Yeah, it's a it's a case in Tennessee, which argues that trans kids shouldn't have access
43:41to gender affirming care.
43:43And gender affirming care for most kids basically means, I mean, who are under the age of 16,
43:50it basically means access to therapy and therapists and the ability to be able to be called by
43:57their preferred pronouns and their chosen names, right?
44:02That is affirming the gender.
44:04But as these kids get older, there may be other types of things that a combination of
44:08their doctor, their therapist and their parents all in agreement say are the right way forward.
44:14And by the way, surgery is not one of them.
44:16That's just a trope.
44:17It doesn't it essentially doesn't happen.
44:20And so this bill in Tennessee says that none of that can't happen, right?
44:25You cannot provide gender affirming care to kids.
44:28And Tennessee is a place where a gender affirming center at Vanderbilt was closed due to bomb
44:35threats and all types of other threats and protests where in very eerie echoes to the
44:42abortion movement.
44:43What this case possibly could mean if the ruling goes against gender affirming care,
44:51it means that the Supreme Court likely is going to have to make a defining ruling between
44:57the difference between biological sex and gender and say that gender is not protected
45:04under the Constitution.
45:05And that in one fell swoop could mean that trans protections at the federal level and
45:10possibly at the state level could be ruled unconstitutional.
45:13And so any of the gains that trans people have made, minor gains that are already under
45:17assault could be wiped away.
45:20And then there are larger implications for everyone in terms of gender affirming care
45:27and all the rest of it.
45:29Can we talk a little bit about how the climate of legislation or pending legislation here
45:34in the United States is affecting things around the world?
45:38I mean, one of our most successful exports in America is culture, right?
45:44And how is this affecting what happens in Europe or in Africa or anywhere else?
45:51Yeah.
45:52I think that one of the things that we have to understand is that one of the things that
45:55we are exporting is essentially legislative transphobia in a can.
46:02And the reason why that is the case is because the organizations in the United States, such
46:08as the Alliance Defending Freedom, are global in nature as well.
46:13They have chapters in the United Kingdom and in Hungary and elsewhere.
46:17And one of the things that is emerging, for example, and I've heard people who are in
46:23the trans community in France tell me that increasingly they are seeing the exact same
46:29rhetoric and the exact same approach that's used in the United States now be picked up
46:34by far right French politicians in a way that did not exist two years ago, for example.
46:42And so much so that there was actually a nationwide protest in every single department in France
46:48last month by trans people to underscore their visibility and their essential need for rights.
46:56The other thing that we need to understand is that in other places, such as Africa, a
47:00lot of the anti-LGBTQ legislation there is also supported by religious institutions in
47:06the United States who are sending know-how and talking points and even cash to help generate
47:14support amongst legislators in Ghana, for example.
47:18So we have to understand that what is happening here is changing and toxifying the climate
47:24around the world.
47:27And it's something that I don't think that we pay enough attention to.
47:31Is there a crossover or an overlap between where this becomes more successful and the
47:37type of regimes or governments that are in power?
47:42We see that the most anti-trans governments around the world are usually on the right
47:51and the far right.
47:53For example, when Vladimir Putin makes speeches about Ukraine, he goes out of his way to devote
48:00part of the talk of rallying the nation to talk about trans people and to talk about
48:06gender.
48:07The same is true for President Xi in China, who also goes after what he says are girly
48:13men in China and that they are bringing down the Chinese state and that people need to
48:17act in a more masculine way.
48:20And we also have to say that the anti-trans push in the United States began legislatively
48:25and administratively during the Trump administration.
48:30And we have a political party in the United States now which is devotedly anti-trans.
48:37Every single major Republican candidate made being anti-trans one of the top four reasons
48:42and rationales for their presidency, and that's now true for Donald Trump.
48:47I want to shift a little bit towards solutions.
48:50And I wonder, you know, look, if there is a kind of rubber stamp machine that can crank
48:57out legislation, anti-LGBTQ legislation in a can, if you will, and export it overseas
49:02or go from state to state, is there any sort of a counter to that?
49:07Are there states or municipalities that have codified protections for different groups
49:13that are also kind of sharing the Google Doc, if you will, and saying, hey, here's a way
49:18that you can, here's something you can propose to your electorate?
49:24That's right.
49:25I mean, there are states that are doing that.
49:26And it's a part of, you know, what you may think of as the usual suspects.
49:31So Maryland has declared itself as a sanctuary state for trans people.
49:36Minnesota has declared itself through legislation a sanctuary for trans people.
49:41And so, you know, I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:44And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:46And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:47And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:48And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:49And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:50And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:51And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:52And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:53And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:54And I think that's a part of what's happening in the United States.
49:55But I think that it's also with a hint of sadness because people deserve to live in
50:03places that they call home.
50:06And you shouldn't have to be turned into a political refugee in the United States because
50:11your local state legislature has decided that you shouldn't have equal access to health
50:17care or equal rights or share in the public space like everyone else.
50:21And so while those are hopeful signs, we also have to understand the pain of people
50:26who literally I have talked to parents who are staring up at the ceiling at night wondering
50:31if it's time for them to move their entire family to another state when they've lived,
50:36for instance, in Texas for five generations.
50:38Speaking of solutions, you're the creator of Translash Media, and there is a new documentary
50:43that's going to be on public television stations around the country this week, and it's called
50:47American Problems, Trans Solutions.
50:49And you looked at a few different characters and kind of the innovative solutions that
50:53they're bringing in their own communities.
50:55Tell us a little bit about the characters you spoke to.
50:57Yeah, they're amazing.
50:58I mean, they're a part of the hope that you were talking about.
51:02You know, they're the lights in this moment.
51:05They're three powerful people, Aluchi Amioga, who is of Nigerian descent, immigrated to
51:12this country from Igbo land, his entire family, who's working on issues of migration.
51:19When I look back on my life, I really want to say we shifted how people see Black trans
51:24people, how people see migrant folks.
51:33We have Kayla Gore from Memphis, who has an entire innovative program to turn people who
51:39are homeless into homeowners by building and then gifting tiny houses to trans people,
51:44immediately giving them an access to housing and economic opportunity.
51:49Home for me means safety, security.
51:51It means stability.
51:53It means comfort.
51:58Growing up, that wasn't even a question of I would have a place to lay my head.
52:05Becoming an adult, I start to face realities of people not liking how I present in the
52:12world, and that prevented me from having housing.
52:15And lastly, Breonna McRee, who is in San Francisco, who, through the transgender district there,
52:22has an incubator program for trans entrepreneurs, where once you go through this program, you
52:28get $10,000 to start your business in a way to try to avoid the discrimination and the
52:35need to do things like engage in sex work, if that's not something that you want to do,
52:39because you're able to innovate and have that funded and financed.
52:44There seem to be some new buildings, like there's a new hotel, that, and I was like,
52:49is there gentrification creeping into this area?
52:51Gentrification is always creeping into San Francisco, but we are trying to get city officials
52:57also to give our folks some of that money through grants so they can own storefronts
53:03also.
53:04Why not help the trans district support folks in that effort?
53:09So I think these are all really powerful examples.
53:11And what really drew me to them is that they're not only examples for the trans community,
53:16but perhaps for the entire country, and in many ways, the world.
53:20I mean, finding ways to provide economic opportunity through entrepreneurship, grants and training,
53:26gifting houses, humane migration, I mean, those are all things that not only are needed
53:31by trans people, people in the United States, but also people around the world.
53:37Draw that kind of connection, if you will, between the climate that we are seeing today
53:41and the work that these individuals are spearheading right now.
53:47I think that for me, the connection is that when things fail for you, when society fundamentally
53:56is not allowing you to participate, it allows you to see the things that are the impediments
54:03that aren't working.
54:04And then if you have an entrepreneurial spirit, to find ways to try to innovate around those.
54:10And I find what's fascinating is that these are some of the most marginalized people in
54:14the country.
54:15And all of their stories have extreme moments of pain and disenfranchisement.
54:22And at the same time, they have decided to not only try to innovate around the experiences
54:28that they had, but also to do so in a way that allows other people to not have to go
54:34through that and not only to survive and thrive.
54:37And I just think that it's such a powerful and hopeful story about how we can transform
54:43darkness and pain into ways to uplift everyone.
54:47The documentary is called American Problems, Trans Solutions.
54:50Imara Jones of Translash Media, thanks so much for joining us.
54:53Thank you so much.
54:54Great to see you.
54:56And finally tonight, as we've seen throughout the program, activism can take place wherever,
55:01whenever.
55:02For instance, along the often grimy banks of the River Thames here in London, student
55:07ballerinas swayed an arabesque for Our Planet as part of the city's Climate Action Week.
55:13These young dancers from the acclaimed Central School of Ballet moved together on the shores
55:18to inspire hope and urge people to take steps to combat climate change.
55:24Now the choreographer, Daniel Davidson, says it's been really interesting setting this
55:28work in a different environment and seeing what that does to the work, but also how it
55:33engages with the audience, passersby.
55:37And that is it for our program tonight.
55:39If you want to find out what's coming up every night, sign up for our newsletter at pbs.org
55:44slash amanpour.
55:45Thanks for watching and good night from London.