Recent cases of children ingesting poisoned foods meant for wildlife, and the spate of suspected dog poisoning in Penang have drawn public attention on pest control methods in the country.
While some quarters question the role of authorities, others say the communities have a duty to fulfil too.
Returning for its fourth episode, StarMetro's Life & The City podcast talks about the issue, with hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab who are joined by Dr Saravanakumar Supramaniam Pillai, the former Veterinary Services Department (DVS) senior deputy director and currently senior adviser on Farm Animal Welfare, Policy and Engagement for Humane Society International (HSI).
The Life & The City podcast series, which airs fortnightly, addresses current and social issues impacting urbanites.
It is available on www.thestar.com.my/metro and on The Star's social media platforms (@thestaronline).
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
SUBSCRIBE: https://cutt.ly/TheStar
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While some quarters question the role of authorities, others say the communities have a duty to fulfil too.
Returning for its fourth episode, StarMetro's Life & The City podcast talks about the issue, with hosts Aida Ahmad and Farid Wahab who are joined by Dr Saravanakumar Supramaniam Pillai, the former Veterinary Services Department (DVS) senior deputy director and currently senior adviser on Farm Animal Welfare, Policy and Engagement for Humane Society International (HSI).
The Life & The City podcast series, which airs fortnightly, addresses current and social issues impacting urbanites.
It is available on www.thestar.com.my/metro and on The Star's social media platforms (@thestaronline).
WATCH MORE: https://thestartv.com/c/news
SUBSCRIBE: https://cutt.ly/TheStar
LIKE: https://fb.com/TheStarOnline
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Life in the City podcast.
00:08I'm your host Aida Ahmad and together with me again is my co-host Farid Wahab.
00:14Hello everyone, it's always a pleasure to be here.
00:16What are we talking about today Aida?
00:18It's another interesting and pressing topic.
00:22It's about the growing problem of disharmony among us humans,
00:28be it in urban or rural areas and wildlife.
00:32I'm sure everyone is up to date on what's been happening in the news, right Farid?
00:40Yes.
00:41One of which are monkeys in particular because of the recent tragedy where
00:47two kids unfortunately passed away in Kulim Kedah after eating poison crackers
00:55laid out by a farmer who intended to deter monkeys from his farm.
01:06So it's rather unfortunate that that happened.
01:09And we will also touch on the recent spate of dogs dying in Penang.
01:17Apparently they were also poisoned and it's a shocking number.
01:21It was about over 20 dogs, right?
01:25And we're lucky today because joining us is Dr. Saravana Kumar Pilleng
01:31who is the former Veterinary Services Department Senior Deputy Director.
01:36But more importantly, he is currently the Senior Advisor on Farm Animal Welfare
01:41Policy and Engagement for Humane Society International, HSI.
01:47Welcome to the podcast, Doctor.
01:49Please share with our listeners your interesting experience as a vet with DBS and HSI.
01:57Thank you, Aida. And hi to Farid.
02:01I think Aida has done some introduction about me.
02:06Yes, I served the Department of Veterinary Services for the past 31 years.
02:10Half of my career as an Enforcement Officer and half of my career as a veterinarian.
02:18And towards my few years before my career, I took my early retirement.
02:25I have been assigned to Animal Welfare Section to write the Animal Welfare Act
02:33as well as the 13 Code of Practice.
02:37So then I took my early retirement to join the Humane Society International.
02:42Focuses on welfare issues pertaining to laying hands.
02:48So this is a simple introduction about me.
02:51Doctor, if I can have a bit of your time.
02:54I find it quite interesting that you moved from Enforcement to becoming a vet.
03:00Can you explain a little bit what this made you decide to have a bit of a career switch?
03:07Okay. I went into the Department of Veterinary Services at the age of 21.
03:13I just applied somewhere and then I was called for an interview.
03:19At the time, I wouldn't know what is the meaning of Pemad Kwasa.
03:22So I went in as a Penolong Pegawai Pemad Kwasa with my STPM as a qualification.
03:29Then after that, when I indulged into the Department of Veterinary Services
03:34where I focus a lot on my legal work related to enforcement, investigation, prosecution and all that.
03:42And after some time, I have urged to further my studies.
03:47So I was thinking that which education should I take.
03:52Then I got an opportunity to go into the Veterinary Studies.
03:58It is known as DVM, mainly for Veterinary Studies.
04:07So I spent about five years there.
04:11Once I'm back, in the government you have a sort of like facilities where you can go for your studies
04:20with half pay and all sorts of things, which I was one of the lucky ones.
04:25When I came back, I had to move into the next part of my job which is highly specialised as a veterinarian.
04:35So I started my career.
04:37I was four years in EPO as the field veterinarian where mainly focusing on treatment of animals.
04:45And then I went to the headquarters placed in Animal Welfare Section
04:54where I was greatly involved in writing of laws and also code of practice.
05:01Thank you, doctor. Thank you so much for sharing that information with us.
05:05Anyway, Aida, why are we talking about this topic today?
05:08Why is it so important for the public to know about this issue?
05:11Well, I think mostly based on what the good doctor has said,
05:15the operative word even during your introduction was welfare, animal welfare.
05:22And we know that monkeys, especially the long-tailed macaques,
05:27which is abundant in Southeast Asia and Malaysia as well,
05:32and which type of monkeys are mainly involved in, sorry to say,
05:36but the menace that we are talking about today.
05:39Based on the recent reports that I mentioned earlier,
05:43it boils down to the big problem of safety of us humans and the animals too
05:49because we cannot continue poisoning them, hoping that they will just disappear, right?
05:55So like what we mentioned before we started podcast, doctor,
06:00it boils down to cruelty and there are laws in place to punish the offenders.
06:06So among these laws are the Animal Welfare Act 2015,
06:11and which you said does not apply to wildlife though.
06:15Under the Act, namely Section 29 pertaining to animal cruelty,
06:21Section 30, killing of animals, and Section 31, which is the administration of poison,
06:27which are all relevant to these incidents.
06:30And under this Act as well, any person found guilty can be fined not less than RM20,000
06:38with the maximum fine of RM100,000 or face a maximum three years jail.
06:43But before we delve into the legal aspects of this issue, doctor,
06:47could you please explain Section 54, Bracket 1 of the Wildlife Conservation Act 2010.
06:55If I'm not mistaken, this Act has also been amended to the Wildlife Conservation Amendment Act 2022.
07:01Yes, okay. This section has been there in the Wildlife Conservation Act.
07:13Yes, that particular section allows owners, especially farm owners who are having crops,
07:23which gives them the room for them to capture and even to kill to protect their crops.
07:37But it should be the last resort, and it should be done by a professional
07:46and who has been trained to remove, not for the public, just because the section is there
07:53and it is clearly written that owner can take some action.
07:57It should not be a point where the public or the farm owners should take things on their hand.
08:05You see, this is what happens in Kedah. When they took this in their hand,
08:10out of ignorance, they used their own method and offering poison which is fed in a biscuit,
08:18which attracts small kids. It should not be done.
08:23In this case, it was the poison crackers.
08:27Yes, it is mainly because that particular section was read rawly without any supportive issues
08:38or they did not take the consequences of what is going to happen in future.
08:42But interestingly, this section 54, bracket 1, allows the owner to capture or kill the wildlife
08:48in the case of causing damage to crops after first attempt to scare the wildlife had failed.
08:54So, can you tell us doctor, what does kill here mean?
08:58Does it include poisoning the animals?
09:00What are the laws or penalties one might face for using poison on wildlife?
09:06Okay, the clear demarcation of poisoning is in Animal Welfare Act.
09:13Unfortunately, the interpretation of animal in the Animal Welfare Act
09:18removed all the interpretation of animal in the wildlife.
09:24Meaning, anything already in the list, Schedule 1, 2 and 3 of Wildlife Conservation Act
09:30is not in place for this particular Animal Welfare Act.
09:35So, the deterrent is more to what is written in this Wildlife Conservation Act.
09:43But mainly, since the Wildlife Act allow killing, so it is not an offence if we read by…
09:54and it is clearly written that you should take upfront action, a non-lethal action
10:01and public would not know what is the meaning of non-lethal action.
10:06It is not specified in the Act.
10:07Yes, and they also do not know the methods which is available, the devices that they can use.
10:14So, they straightaway go into the final resort of poisoning the animal.
10:21Right.
10:22If I can chime in a little bit, when the Act says kill,
10:27does it specify what types of methods are permissible in order to kill the animals?
10:35I have read the law and normally when we read the law, we will read the interpretation.
10:40So, when the interpretation is talking about killing, then they will specify into more details.
10:47But in this Act, I do not think so that we have that part.
10:50So, it is more down to Standard Operating Procedure or Code of Practitioner
10:56which is supposed to be released by the Wildlife Department.
11:04But that also I do not think that is also there.
11:09So, it is the job of the owner who feels that he wants to enforce the law, Section 54,
11:16should do some readings or get the opinion from the public, from the experts
11:21to take the first line of action which is scaring them or taking all the resort.
11:27In fact, the killing will be the last final resort
11:32and I still affirm that it should not be done by the owner.
11:35It should be engaged a professional who actually knows how to deal with this killing program.
11:45That is true because from the wildlife perspective,
11:50because rural communities may not be aware of the detrimental effects of using poison on animals,
11:58they deem as pests.
12:00So, from a veterinarian's perspective, Doctor,
12:03what kind of damage to crops would justify harming wildlife or deterring them?
12:11As a vet, for me, both are important,
12:14which is the crop as well as the wildlife conservation.
12:18So, since at the same time if there is a significant damage which imposed to the crop,
12:27it is also a duty of the owner, should take a proper precaution.
12:32So, what I would like to tell is a proper,
12:38there should be a first line of action has to be focused on non-lethal.
12:45And the final of reading the law as it is of Section 54,
12:53should not be taken into their hand.
12:56I am a strong believer of this particular thing.
12:59Although when you read the law, it is giving you the entire power to actually kill.
13:07Actually, it should not be interpreted in that manner.
13:11And then if at all it has to be done,
13:15then it has to be solely done on very calculative and also very carefully manner
13:24in order not to harm the other surrounding, not to disturb the ecosystem.
13:30So, there is maybe just now like what Aida said,
13:36it should be engaged pest control.
13:38Then we have also several experts who can actually work on this.
13:45I think I came across this information when I was covering local councils in Selangor.
13:52This relates to issues of dealing with stray dogs.
13:57And one of the things that I was told was that
14:00there was a challenge in finding a contractor that is willing to take on such a job.
14:04So, doctor, do you think it is possible that this farm owners,
14:10they find it difficult to find a qualified contractor
14:14or a contractor that is willing to take on such a job.
14:17And that could probably be the reason why they are taking matters into their own hands?
14:22Yes.
14:24You see, since you are asking about contractor,
14:27and I have been working closely with them when I was in the Department of Veterinary Services,
14:31they need to handle some drugs which is prohibited,
14:38can be only hold by a veterinary surgeon.
14:41And the catching and also the animals also need quite a level of expertise.
14:51So, this should make up the company.
14:54I would say it is very small or very, very less companies with these entities,
15:02a vet as well as, because a vet may not be only focusing on this.
15:08So, getting the company to be a contractor itself is a big issue.
15:12But some of the town council already engaged where if you zoom into the company,
15:19they have a vet and also they have some expertise.
15:23They are actually at the call of any time from any public to actually work with them.
15:32But they are paid by the law, which is the bylaws by the town council.
15:38Meaning each time they cannot go alone, they cannot enforce alone,
15:42because they do not have the legal standard.
15:44It has to be along with the town council offices,
15:48because the rights for them to do the job comes with the bylaw,
15:53which was assigned to them by the YDPs.
15:57Right. So, it is a collaborative effort then?
16:00Yes.
16:01It takes the whole village to do this and as humanely as possible, right?
16:06Speaking of humane methods, Dr, for capturing wildlife,
16:11there are some that can be used, right?
16:16Instead of killing, culling them or poisoning them.
16:20Based on HSI's stand on this matter, maybe you could explain about that?
16:25Okay. Initially, normally we will take a technique where we will try to capture life and relocate.
16:36If you see this is what is happening now.
16:38If at all a snake has been found in the house,
16:42we normally will call Bomba or APF, Angkata Pertahanan Awam.
16:46And they are being trained with all the gadgets
16:52and they will come and capture and they will relocate in their natural behaviour.
16:58That has to be the first.
17:00Or if at all that we wanted to take things in our hand,
17:04then we have to have some gadgets like sound, lightings,
17:09because animals are very sensitive.
17:12When you take a device and you put some sounds,
17:16they will just run away and they will normally won't fight.
17:20Similar goes to the light.
17:22When you are on the light at night, then they will just run away.
17:25So these are the few methods that you can actually focus on managing them.
17:32Apart of that, you can also work on inviting these kind of experts
17:42to actually do some modification to your environment
17:48so that they won't encroach.
17:50If you are having a big farm, it is highly recommended that they should be fencing.
17:55And the fencing has to be strong enough.
17:58If you see most of the farms, they will have one or two layers of battery wires
18:03which the wave will actually keep them away.
18:07Shock the animals.
18:09The shock will only take place when they encroach and they hit the wires.
18:14But otherwise, when they are nearing itself,
18:16they already feel the wave from the battery wires and they will not encroach.
18:23And the voltage probably should have to be within a suitable range.
18:27What is our intention is not to harm the animal,
18:30but to alert the animal that there is some kind of voltage shock here.
18:35And most of the time in my experience, when you have that in place,
18:40they will not encroach.
18:44So I think these are the few actions that the public or the owner of the farm should know.
18:50They have certain levels of action that they can take.
18:54And I have also seen in the top corner of the farms,
19:00they have this lighthouse where there will be one worker at night flashing the lights.
19:07And there will also be a siren on when they see a group of wildlife coming towards their farm.
19:14But this all needs to take effort.
19:17And cost as well, right?
19:20Yes.
19:21It sounds like we need to put some amount of thought into minimising the pain
19:26and the injuries to the animals.
19:28So do we have any guideline, any SOP really,
19:33to make sure that we do our best to minimise the potential harms or the potential injuries to the animals?
19:41Okay, I would comment this based on what I know.
19:46The KPKT, Menterian Perumahan, which governs the town councils,
19:54they have taken a vital move by drafting a guideline
20:01to all those people who capture the animals,
20:05especially the dogs and cats, stray animals,
20:08on what are the devices to use,
20:11like a jala and some looping device and all that.
20:19They have quite a nice and well-structured guideline on what Farid has been asking.
20:28Normally, for wildlife, it is in the wild.
20:32You don't need to have any welfare issue related to them.
20:36They have the natural foraging behaviour, so they will be able to take care.
20:40So the guideline for the wildlife who has enclosed the human residency,
20:49I have not gone through.
20:51But I'm very sure that agencies who have been doing this, like BOMBA and APM,
20:57should have the guideline.
21:00Because if you see the way they work, they are very, very structured.
21:04They have all these gadgets, which is mainly to reduce the pain and suffering
21:11and also injuries for the animal that they want to handle.
21:14Because their intention is not to kill.
21:16Their intention is to relocate.
21:18So they must be relocated in least stress and no much of injury
21:26in the process of getting them.
21:29What are some of the challenges the authorities face in identifying
21:35and prosecuting offenders under this particular Wildlife Conservation Act?
21:40Because in the story about the farmer in Kedah,
21:44he was charged under the Child Act and Penal Code
21:47for negligent conduct involving poisonous substance.
21:51What are some of the difficulties, Doctor, in obtaining the samples
21:57from the poisonous substance?
21:59So mainly what will happen is, if it happens in urban,
22:05then you may always find problem of getting a credential fitness.
22:13They always prefer to give a call and then without any particular details
22:20and they will just say that, okay, such, such things has happened.
22:24When comes to the point of, can we have you as the eyewitness?
22:28They said no.
22:30This is worst when comes to the complaining the neighbour's dog, neighbour's cat.
22:35Normally they will be more careful in keeping their harmonise.
22:40At the same time they also wanted to complain.
22:43In rural, it escalated to a different level,
22:46where most of the cases are unattended, unnoticed.
22:51By the time you go there, all the evidence has been tampered,
22:54lost, so even you can't get.
22:57If you are going to talk about poison,
22:59then the main substance to approve in the court is the poison itself.
23:05So you need to get the poison's active ingredient
23:09saying that this is actually a poison from the place that they found.
23:13Secondly is the people who actually kept the poison.
23:18So you need to have some kind of like evidence,
23:20which is relating to these two in order for you,
23:23because when you go to the court,
23:25you have to prove your case beyond the reasonable doubt.
23:28So any one doubt is just gone.
23:30So this is the biggest challenge for us to get,
23:33that sometimes it is kept outside,
23:37out of the rain, the animal has eaten a day ago,
23:41the enforcement has been taken a day after,
23:43by that time it is already rain and everything is gone.
23:45You go there, you don't see anything.
23:47When I was in enforcement,
23:48this is the biggest challenge that we face.
23:51Normally to prove the case,
23:53it is kind of like difficult,
23:55because of these two issues of people who complain,
23:59and then also the evidence itself.
24:02And then the complainant get upset because they feel like they have complained,
24:05but it is not relating to anything.
24:07Yes, correct.
24:09But now it is different.
24:11The enforcement has gone to the next level.
24:16I would like to quote, remember the cat,
24:20which has been put into the washing machine?
24:22Yes.
24:25So they have gone to the extent of getting the fur from the turbine,
24:31and then send it to a forensic report,
24:33to know whether this is that particular cat's fur.
24:37This is a very strong case.
24:39And we have CCTV which proves who is the offender,
24:43and PDRM has done a great job,
24:46by a few days they managed to capture.
24:48These are the advancement that has been done specifically in animals.
24:54Those days, maybe we may be thinking that this is an animal,
24:58so no focuses, not the scenario now.
25:01The police and also the authority are taking immediate action
25:05when it comes to this kind of offences.
25:13Doctor, another thing that we need to talk about,
25:16animal or wildlife encroachment,
25:21well I do not think it is right to call them encroaching,
25:24it is more like we are encroaching on them.
25:26But wildlife infestation happens even in urban areas,
25:30and that happens when developments encroach into the green lungs.
25:36So do you foresee this problem becoming worse in future,
25:40as more and more developments expand,
25:43or sprawl into green areas?
25:48Yes.
25:49In fact, if you ask me,
25:53as a veterinarian,
25:55I would actually love to preserve the natural habitat of an animal.
26:02Because they play a vital role in our ecosystem,
26:06and they have their own role which normally we are not focusing.
26:11We may focus a lot on the human development,
26:16on the infrastructure and all that.
26:18Yes, Farid, the main problem is because of the development.
26:23But for a country to flourish and also to enhance,
26:28they need to have development.
26:30So when you play within these two issues,
26:36so you need the development,
26:38at the same time you need a proper habitat and conservative.
26:44So the government has to play a vital role,
26:46and also a long-sighted role in order to balance both.
26:51If this does not happen,
26:53then issues related to encroachment of wildlife into the human habitat will definitely.
27:01What they need is, why they are coming is mainly because of the food.
27:05When you reduce the size of the forest,
27:08you reduce the size of the ecosystem,
27:11and the food chain has been disturbed.
27:13So what they will do, they will come to places which is near to human area.
27:20Worst case if, I would say a good example is the jalan from Main Road to Batang Bejuntai.
27:27You see along the way there's a lot of monkeys in all different ages,
27:31even from babies to the grandfathers.
27:34Why? Because people throw food.
27:37So when they start to eat the humane food,
27:40they are more calories, they are more fat, they are more sugar,
27:44and they lost the habit of foraging.
27:47So they will wait from the morning till evening for people to give food.
27:51It creates dependency, right?
27:53Exactly.
27:54And they become total dependent on the food,
27:57and they lost the ability to find their own food.
28:02Dr, I would like to circle back to the issue you raised about installing the fence,
28:10the electrified fence.
28:13Apart from that, are there any other methods that you can suggest
28:17that people can use to keep wildlife away,
28:20but also at the same time making sure that they are safe?
28:23I know for a fact that in some kampung areas,
28:25they create noise to keep wild boars away,
28:29some of them to light up firecrackers.
28:31Are there any other methods that people can use?
28:34Okay, you have some kind of chemical repellent,
28:38which is friendly to the environment,
28:41but it gives a sort of heavy smell to the animal.
28:46But for you to use the repellent, you need to be very near,
28:49which is also able to end danger
28:52because the animal will understand that you are trying to harm them.
28:57Noise and light would be the best way
29:03because it can be heard from a long distance.
29:07And even if they are already encroaching,
29:10you can put yourself into a safe zone and create the sound.
29:15Firecrackers will create a havoc,
29:19where they will be over-induced
29:25and they will be running all over the place.
29:28And most of the time, this works.
29:33Otherwise, to have very sophisticated gadgets,
29:37in my knowledge, I have never seen.
29:41Maybe they might be there, but I have never seen.
29:46When you deal with small rodents or wildlife,
29:51which is small in size, that will lead to complications.
29:55Because when you make a sign,
29:57they will move into an area where they feel safe,
30:00where it's a house.
30:02And within the house, you have a lot of places
30:06that we also wouldn't believe that that is.
30:09So that kind of makes it more complicated.
30:13So getting the proper professional,
30:16and also when you find somebody,
30:18you can actually give an immediate call.
30:20And they are all working 24-7,
30:23and they will be there when there is a distress call
30:26related to animal intervention, especially wildlife.
30:30And if at all it has been found roaming around,
30:35then I think the wildlife department has a method
30:39on how to trap them and then capture them and relocate them.
30:44So we have all those in place.
30:47So when you take things in your hand
30:49and you are not professional actually to handle the situation,
30:53the situation can be chaos when it is mishandled.
30:57I found something interesting in an article written
31:00just over a decade ago in a news portal in the US,
31:05which highlighted a huge number of monkeys,
31:07in particular the long-tailed macaques,
31:10that were culled by our wildlife officials,
31:13which they have denied.
31:16It said the Malaysian branch of the World Wildlife Fund,
31:20which refused an interview with this particular US news agency,
31:24said that metropolitan monkeys did not fall
31:27under the context of wildlife conservation.
31:30What is your take on it, Doctor?
31:32Yes, metropolitan monkeys may not fall
31:37under the conventional wildlife species.
31:42But they are mainly seen in urban areas.
31:47Normally they have this natural foraging behaviour.
31:52But in my opinion, they have lost the natural foraging behaviour.
31:59It is mainly because of the feeding which is done by the human itself.
32:05They tend to understand.
32:08You can see the overpopulation of this kind of monkeys are in parks
32:12and also in the public areas.
32:15Because they understand humans, mostly they carry food.
32:18And they also understand that humans are not careful
32:21in protecting their food.
32:24And they also understand by a little bit of encroachment,
32:27they will actually tend to run away and leave the food there.
32:30So, they tend to move towards stealing the food.
32:36They also understand if they go into the houses where in the kitchen areas,
32:40the nice smell and the access to the kitchen is a nice room for them
32:46to just encroach and get whatever tasty food.
32:49And whatever food that we eat is high with calories, fat and sugar,
32:54which they love.
32:57But the bottom is they have been trained by humans
33:05to take away the natural foraging behaviour
33:09and they become totally dependent.
33:12So, when the humans fail to feed them,
33:17then they take another resort of stealing food.
33:21Putting into a little bit of aggressiveness
33:24to get the food out of the human hands.
33:28Which we've seen, doctor.
33:30So, we're on the subject of feed or not to feed.
33:33Because in city parks, we can see the big signboards
33:36that the relevant authorities have put up
33:39discouraging people from feeding the animals.
33:43Which all the reasons you just explained.
33:47Correct me if I'm wrong.
33:49Monkeys can't smell food from far away.
33:52I've seen monkeys slowly creeping up to people at the park
33:55and grabbing their picnic basket.
33:58And I've seen people bringing loaves of bread to the park
34:03and bananas to feed the monkeys and the fish in the pond.
34:07Now, tell us doctor, is this feeding frenzy good or bad?
34:13And what are some of the ways to address this issue?
34:21I may not be popular by answering this question.
34:24As a veterinarian, I will say no to feeding.
34:28But the human perception, when they feed, they are helping the animal.
34:36When they feed, they are doing good deed.
34:39They will fall into a good karma.
34:42Or they are the designated soul to feed the animals
34:47because nobody feeds.
34:49It is not that.
34:50It is we are actually making the animal to be dependent.
34:55And in long run, it will harm them.
34:59Because the diet that we give is not suitable for them.
35:04It will lead into undernourished.
35:07It will lead into even diseases, malnutritional, all sort of things.
35:14So, what it should be done is
35:18a proper awareness program needs to be in place
35:22to tell to the public not to feed
35:26and why it should not be fed.
35:29Because they are thinking that they are helping the animal.
35:33In fact, they are equally harming the animal.
35:35Doing more harm than good in terms of feeding them.
35:42Slightly, I think Kajang has imposed a small fine for those who feed.
35:47But it turned into a big issue.
35:50And then, I do not know whether the thing is still in place or not.
35:53You mean Kajang Municipal Council?
35:55Yes. But if you ask me, that is a good move.
35:58Because you know, when the availability of food is there,
36:03the population of the animal will increase based on the food availability.
36:07Right.
36:08So, when you remove them, the town council take action by removing, depopulate them.
36:13Given another two or three weeks, it will be repopulated again
36:17based on the food availability.
36:20So, when this kind of feeding goes extensively,
36:23the availability of food will be there.
36:25The problem of new strays will not be solved.
36:31I understand that we are talking about TNRM.
36:35TNRM has to be in place for them to slowly depopulate naturally
36:41and reduce the population.
36:43Sorry, before you continue, Dr.
36:45When you say TNRM, meaning Trap, Neutral, Release.
36:48Yes. The department does not agree on release.
36:52The department wanted it to be Trap, Neutral and Re-homed.
36:56But some NGOs believe in releasing back
37:01and giving them back their natural habitat.
37:05Some are re-homing with the shelter.
37:10But the shelters are highly limited.
37:14And to re-home, you need to have complete infrastructure to do that.
37:19So, I think the department and also the government is fairly working
37:24to come to an understanding of what are the ways.
37:28If you see in Kedah, there was one uncle.
37:30He took the downhill and put up a big, huge shelter.
37:38So, that is more or less when you are encroaching towards the hill,
37:41the land is all unused.
37:43So, these are the options that the government should think of.
37:46Actually, feeding animals can also be harmful to us.
37:50I think recently one of our reporters, Ann Trisha,
37:54wrote about people feeding pigeons.
37:56And she wrote that the dust spread by the pigeons.
38:00Feather dust.
38:01The feather dust can actually be harmful to people who actually have asthma.
38:04And she said that the council where she lives, I think it is Georgetown?
38:08Yes, it is Georgetown.
38:09She said it actually does impose heavy fines on people.
38:12So, I think people have that good intention, but it is misplaced.
38:21Exactly.
38:22Yes.
38:23See, I agree with the article.
38:25Pigeon could be a carrier of certain disease.
38:28Lungs, pertaining to lungs and all that.
38:31And the dust from the fur could definitely directly link to the asthmatic issues.
38:40That is why it is back to the people who are feeding
38:45has a strong belief that they are doing good things.
38:48So, the public awareness and also maybe a little bit of deterrent
38:53should be always there for them to understand.
38:58Without making them a proper understanding on why they should not feed,
39:02they will be always thinking that the government is not sensitive over all this.
39:09But it is not the other way around.
39:12If you ask me as a veterinarian, I will definitely say no to the feeding.
39:17It has to be done structurally.
39:19It has to be done properly.
39:20It has to be done in a proper place.
39:23Yes.
39:24Okay.
39:25We are down to the last part of our conversation today, Doctor.
39:31We want to touch on the issue of the dog poisoning cases in Penang.
39:37So, what happened this month was that more than 20 dogs were suspected to have been poisoned,
39:44including a pet husky.
39:47So, the people in Penang had a vigil and one volunteer dog feeder
39:52stressed that there needed to be better cooperation
39:55between the Department of Veterinary Services and local authorities.
39:59And it is back to what you said earlier, Doctor,
40:02about this collaborative relationship to address these issues.
40:10You have to understand the demographic of our country.
40:14Most of them are taxpayers and they contribute to the development of the country.
40:21Therefore, they need to sustain their rights.
40:27So, on the other hand, you have also a group of animal lovers
40:32and you have a group of people, I wouldn't say they hate animals,
40:37but they prefer to have a more sensitive environment for their kids to play,
40:44for them to jog and all that.
40:47So, the conflict within these two people is where the issue starts.
40:51And then the belief of the certain NGOs talking about release back to the environment,
40:59give them a proper place to live on because they also have life and all that.
41:06So, this is where the issue of 20 dogs which has been, I don't know whether it is poison or not,
41:12but it has been found dead.
41:15And the pet husky is definitely the negligence of the owner
41:20where they did not exhibit the owner's responsibility,
41:25letting their pet to move out and become stray.
41:32And there is no effort for them to retrieve them back.
41:35But whatever is it, come down who is going to solve this problem.
41:40See, when it comes to the town council, it is the job of the town council,
41:46they have several bylaws to make sure that the environment is free from nuisance.
41:53They put the word of nuisance and also pollution.
41:57All this comes under them.
42:00And they are receiving hundreds of complaints on daily basis from the public
42:05who is also paying quit rent, who say that they have the rights to have a proper environment.
42:15So, this is the pressure that the town council is having.
42:17So, what they do, they move towards to sign with this contractor or to move with the team to depopulate.
42:27Animal welfare allows them to kill animal for the purpose of depopulate.
42:33But it has to be under their bylaws.
42:35On the other side, Department of Veterinary Services governs the Animal Welfare Act and Animal Act
42:41which is focusing on disease matters, matters related to welfare and matters related to cruelty.
42:50So, there are two different pathways, two different jurisdictions.
42:56And they have to work hand to hand.
42:59Another part that should actually join this coalition is the NGOs.
43:04Because they are the people who is, I would say, a very noble people
43:09who spend their money, their time, their energy to protect this particular animal.
43:15And some of the NGOs you can see, their extensive way of doing things is beyond imaginable.
43:25So, these three people has to work hand to hand to come to a conclusion on how this particular issue can be resolved.
43:35Of course, one is increasing the number of shelter.
43:40And maybe the government should think of maybe preparing a certain fund to manage the shelter.
43:49Or the Department of Veterinary Services to give them a guideline
43:54which I think already in place on how to manage this stray.
43:59So, but the three people must come hand to hand, must have one decision
44:05and work along the way to solve the problem.
44:08If not, what will happen is everybody will start to pinpoint to each other.
44:14Blaming game will start and there will be a never ending for this.
44:19Sorry, just one question about the situation with the dogs in Penang.
44:25Now, the DVS regulatory department chief had said that there was a delay in reporting the incident.
44:31Now, like what we've established, we're not sure whether it was poisoning or not.
44:37But four days after the dead dogs were found, resulting in lack of evidence.
44:43So, there were no samples from the carcasses to be sent to the lab to be analysed.
44:49Now, this is important for people to know in future, animal lovers to know in future.
44:54What they should do, what should have the residents done instead?
45:01Immediately call DVS or the local representative?
45:05Or should they have preserved any evidence as much as possible for the authorities to take action?
45:13Okay, now this is a very complicated question.
45:18What happened is definitely when you wanted to establish why you report,
45:24you want them to take the case and also win the case.
45:28Or you punish the people who does the cruelty.
45:32But normally what will happen is, back to the witness.
45:36I wouldn't pinpoint anyone.
45:40But what will happen, out of the interest, out of the enthusiasm, out of some kind of curiosity,
45:47under the name of help, they will move in and start to remove the carcasses
45:55and temper the whole evidence.
46:00And worst case is they go and bury and they throw.
46:04Or whatever they do, it is already, the evidence has already been tempered.
46:09Or cremated.
46:10Yes. So, when you start, when you wanted to complain in this case after four days,
46:16all those animals may be already decomposed.
46:20You can't get evidence out of the composing.
46:24The most evident is not to identify whether it is a dog or cat, the carcass.
46:30It is to identify who does, why the cause of death.
46:34So, this is important for the case to be taken.
46:41So, what the public should do is, they should, once they identify,
46:46immediately they should call Department of Veterinary Services.
46:49We have regulatory body, we have enforcement division.
46:53Either will be mobilized, even we have also animal welfare division in the department.
46:58They will be mobilized to go and take the case.
47:02They have all the vehicles and also the trainings to actually collect a proper case.
47:09They will go and mark the area.
47:13They will precisely take the case.
47:15Because all this will go into an investigation paper.
47:19And this is where it is an important paper for them to prepare the charge sheet.
47:25And it is all important for them to know that it has to be done immediately by a proper authority.
47:32So, my advice is, if you find anything like this, you immediately secure the area.
47:40Wait, immediately call the officers.
47:43Wait until they come and then let them do the job.
47:48Because the investigation paper starts from the time that the officers arrive.
47:53The story will start from there.
47:56And then they have been completely trained to retrieve the evidence.
48:03Any last questions, Bright?
48:05I think, just to add my opinion, I think I understand the process, how it works.
48:10I think the challenge lies in the fact that most people probably feel,
48:14oh, it's a dog, it's a cat.
48:16You don't have to secure the crime scene as much.
48:20I mean, if it was a human, people would probably be, people would take it far more,
48:24people would take it more seriously.
48:26Like what happened with the boys in Kulim.
48:28Exactly.
48:29But if it involves a dog, people might say, it's just a dog.
48:33Get over it, you know.
48:35So, I think the challenge lies in the attitude too.
48:37But people need to realise that this is a living being.
48:42Yeah, I agree with you.
48:44That's the reason why for the past few years, the Department of Veterans Services,
48:49as well as the other government agencies,
48:51has taken serious action in improving their knowledge and collaboration with police
48:59and all the other forensic department, chemist department,
49:04for them to find ways on how to increase the professionalism near to human.
49:10Because, yes, those days, it is just an animal.
49:14But nowadays, it's not like that.
49:16People are very sensitive.
49:17Yeah, that's right.
49:18People wanted to know.
49:19People wanted certain action which is not right to be taken to the court.
49:26So, yes, it has to evolve to a level of maybe to the stage of how they treat the human crime scene.
49:38It has to be also similar to an animal crime scene.
49:40I think part of it has to do with the widespread use of social media
49:44where these kinds of incidents, they will spread very quickly on social media
49:48and people would go on the comment section and then public pressure will start to pile up.
49:54Before, that's not the case anymore.
49:56No, I think it's happening.
49:58For example, there was one case found in Johor Bahru.
50:02They need the animal to be rescued.
50:04But this guy who allowed it out is in Penang and he put it in social media
50:12and by a few minutes, somebody in JB is already rescued.
50:16So, the positive things is also.
50:18At the same time, the negative things also have happened.
50:21We were rushed to one place to look into the case and we see that where is the evidence, where is it?
50:31They said, this picture has been taken from Taiwan.
50:33I just posted it.
50:35This is irresponsible.
50:38And this should not be done when it comes to you want a proper action to be taken.
50:45Well, any parting notes for it?
50:49Because this has been an insightful conversation.
50:52Very eye-opening.
50:53Yes, and thank you for being here on our show, Doctor.
50:57Well, I'm very happy to have you here, Doctor.
51:02Because some of the things you said, I've never even thought about before.
51:05I have two cats at home.
51:06I'm an animal lover myself.
51:08But yes, I think it's very important that people understand the need to balance between
51:13wanting to be nice to animals but also thinking about the long-term harms you might be creating
51:20if you continue to feed them and poison them.
51:22True.
51:23So, you see the Animal Welfare Act under Section 24, especially narrating the responsibility
51:30of an owner.
51:32There are five main responsibilities.
51:34So, what they should do is either the owners all should go through a formal training on
51:43this particular section and also section related to 29, which is cruelty, before they could
51:50able to call they are responsible owners.
51:53And even we have, I've suggested this to Town Council, before you give licence, dog licence,
51:59put that as one of the criteria.
52:01Show them, ask them to show that they have already gone through a proper training related
52:07to animal welfare, especially as a responsible.
52:11When they understand they already gone through, because Animal Welfare Act worked in two ways.
52:17A person complained that my dog has been bitten by my neighbour or a cat has been bitten
52:23by my neighbour.
52:24Of course, the guy who bit the dog or cat will be subjected to Section 29.
52:33At the same time, under the Section 24, the owner will be also subjected that you did
52:38not give a proper environment, you made your pet to be in this kind of condition.
52:45So, there are two ways that they see.
52:46Right, so training is important before you get a pet.
52:50Duly noted.
52:51I think we will be highlighting this as well in a couple of our stories in Star Metro.
52:56Once again, thank you Dr Saravana for being on this show.
53:00Thanks for listening everyone.
53:02Life in the City podcast can be viewed on www.thestar.com.my.
53:16Thank you.