• 3 months ago
"Hello everyone-

"I wanted to see what everyone thinks of the following scenario related to a good friend of mine, we'll call him Bob, in keeping with Stefan's favorite name for pseudonymous people. This is a bit long-winded I know but its an issue I'm still trying to wrap my head around that I'm sure you'll find as perplexing as I do and it involves a lot of the same philosophical principles and precepts that Stef tackles in my favorite episodes, listener call-ins. I appreciate in advance your time and consideration. Maybe with your feedback I can be of service to my friend Bob and his wife somehow. Let's get right to it:

"Bob has known Jane for about 2 years now. They courted for about a year and a half and have been married now for 8 or 9 months now. From the very beginning of their relationship, Bob and Jane have had deep and meaningful conversations about their past, their values, their goals in life, etc. and were pretty well-aligned in all manners. They were in premarital counseling for about a year before they were married to address how childhood and family of origin issues might shape the dynamics in their relationship and they have worked fastidiously to recognize when they are "pushing each other's trauma buttons", so to speak and how to more effectively communicate their wants and needs with each other.

"Their arguments, as they've both told me, are infrequent and have never escalated into physical aggression towards the other, they've never yelled at or threatened each other, and there has never been any instance whatsoever of infidelity or abuse of any kind. Many people from the outside, myself included, have remarked how genuine their connection seems to be, how dutifully they seem in their commitment to each other and how happy they seem to be together....

".... What are your thoughts?"

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Transcript
00:00All right, hi there, it's Stefan Molyneux from Free Domain.
00:04This is a story and a question, a series of questions, from a listener at freedomain.locals.com.
00:12I hope you will join the community.
00:14This gets me very passionate, so brace yourselves, just so you know.
00:19Hello everyone.
00:20I wanted to see what everyone thinks of the following scenario related to a good friend
00:24of mine.
00:25We'll call him Bob, in keeping with Stefan's favorite name for pseudonymous people.
00:29This is a bit long-winded, I know, but it's an issue I'm still trying to wrap my head
00:33around, that I'm sure you'll find as perplexing as I do, and it involves a lot of the same
00:37philosophical principles and precepts as Stefan tackles in my favorite episodes, Listener
00:43Call-Ins.
00:44I appreciate in advance your time and consideration, maybe with your feedback I can be of service
00:50to my friend Bob and his wife, somehow.
00:52Let's get right to it.
00:53Well, a little late for that, but we'll get there.
00:56Bob has known Jane for about two years now.
01:01They courted for about a year and a half and have been married now for eight or nine months.
01:06From the very beginning of their relationship, Bob and Jane have had deep and meaningful
01:10conversations about their past, their values, their goals in life, etc., and were pretty
01:17well aligned in all matters.
01:21They were in premarital counseling for about a year before they were married to address
01:26how childhood and family of origin issues might shape the dynamics in their relationship,
01:31and they have worked fastidiously to recognize when they are, quote, pushing each other's
01:36trauma buttons, so to speak, and how to more effectively communicate their wants and needs
01:40to each other.
01:42Their arguments, as they both told me, are infrequent and have never escalated into physical
01:47aggression towards the other.
01:49They've never yelled at or threatened each other, and there has never been any instance
01:54whatsoever of infidelity or abuse of any kind.
01:58Many people from the outside, myself included, have remarked how genuine their connection
02:02seems to be, how dutifully they seem in their commitment to each other, and how happy they
02:08seem to be together.
02:11Like it is for many married couples, their first year of marriage has been quite challenging.
02:16Both have had some difficulties navigating family of origin issues, such as Jane's divorced
02:22parents and how her often meddlesome stepmother can be divisive in pitting Jane's mother and
02:28father against each other.
02:30Such behavior angers and saddens Jane, who in these circumstances finds herself re-experiencing
02:37old wounds from her parents' particularly contentious divorce when Jane was a teenager.
02:42Bob is not without family of origin drama of his own.
02:46I know more about Bob's childhood, as I've known Bob a lot longer, a lot better and for
02:51longer than I have Jane, but I know he was often subject to his mother's wild vacillations
02:57in mood, along with torrents of insane verbal abuse when he was a child.
03:05Interestingly enough, Jane's and Bob's fathers both are quintessential boomers straight out
03:11of a 4chan meme, often enabling the bad behavior of their wives with a dearth of philosophical
03:16complexity on display in their unironic use of the cringe phrase, happy wife, happy life.
03:22Passive-weak fathers both, but contrasted with Bob's disdain and disconnection from
03:28his own father, Jane has quite a close, borderline emotionally incestuous attachment to her father.
03:35As from what it sounds like, she would often assume the role of emotional support child
03:39to her father during the divorce.
03:42This was an issue previously brought up for discussion by Bob in premarital counseling,
03:47as he had some misgivings originally if upon marriage Jane would indeed accept him as the
03:52paterfamilias or stay loyal and enmeshed to such an unhealthy degree with her father.
03:58Jane promised him that it was the former, though the doubt still lingered in Bob's mind.
04:07There were several conversations that the couple had about the fact, incomprehensible
04:13as it was to Bob and me to be honest, that Jane was 31 years old at the time she met
04:19Bob, had never had a relationship, and this didn't seem to be much of a concern to her
04:24father.
04:26Bob confided when they first started dating to me how strange it was to him, especially
04:31in the modern tindified dating world, how a woman as fit and pretty as Jane could be
04:37a 31-year-old virgin and suspected her father of holding her back from her goal of finding
04:42a husband with whom to start a family.
04:46Then in early March came the gravest challenge to their now three-month-old marriage.
04:52Bob received word from his mother that his 13-year-old nephew had killed himself, a gunshot
04:59to the head.
05:00This was, of course, devastating to both Bob and Jane, but especially to Bob, for it was
05:06his own brother's child, a boy with tremendous promise who excelled in music and suffered
05:11from depression nearly identical to Bob at that age.
05:17Unable to sleep, eat, and feel any interest in sex with his wife, Bob was distraught to
05:22the point where he picked up alcohol again after five years' sobriety.
05:30This was something Bob vowed never again to do as Jane expressed her intolerance for
05:35substances of abuse when they first started dating.
05:40One night, a couple weeks later, Bob was arrested for misdemeanor assault after a fight during
05:47a night out at the bar.
05:49He had told Jane he was at an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting at the time, and when he called from
05:56jail Jane was furious at Bob for the drinking and the dishonesty she despised in more or
06:02less equal measure.
06:07The next day Bob was released from jail, and out of desperation to get back to the sober
06:15life he had come to appreciate deeply, he checked himself into the hospital for a detox.
06:22Clearly this would be a good-faith attempt as well to win back Jane's heart, as part
06:28of her forgiveness of him would hinge on whether or not he attempted to correct the problem
06:34that caused the harm to her heart in the first place.
06:38On the next day, during the hospital's visitation hours, Bob was called from his room and informed
06:45that he had visitors.
06:47Visitors?
06:49Visitors like plural?
06:50Bob thought maybe Jane brought me or another mutual friend, an elderly neighbor, they both
06:57befriended on a walk around the neighborhood one evening while they were still dating,
07:01and who was a big supporter of their relationship, but to Bob's shock it was not me, nor was
07:07it their mutual friend.
07:10Who was the other visitor?
07:11There seated at the table was Jane and her father.
07:17Bob's heart sank and he became angered by his presence.
07:21He asked Jane what she was thinking by having her father drive seven hours to be a party
07:27to a conversation that should be only the place of the two to have.
07:36He refused to sit down and talk with them any further.
07:40When he was discharged from the hospital several days later, Bob was presented with a note
07:44from Jane telling him that she was going back with her father to process things.
07:50A month passed and every attempt Bob made to contact Jane went unanswered.
07:57Last week Bob received a knock at the door.
08:00It was a porter from a law firm who handed Bob a summons.
08:07Dissolution of marriage.
08:10The petitioner, wife, alleges fraud.
08:13The marriage should be annulled.
08:14Due to fraud, as the respondent, husband failed to disclose to the petitioner that he suffers
08:18from a mental illness which affects his ability to be forthright and truthful with the petitioner.
08:25This is where my friend Bob is now.
08:31He was, and has now been, going to AA meetings daily since the day he was released from the
08:37hospital.
08:38He's on the course, but he's managing it well, got a new job, working out every day, has
08:42a sponsor and is working the steps in AA.
08:45All of this really makes my head spin.
08:48There's so much to mine for discussion here.
08:52In sickness and in health is one.
08:55It's so strange how a relationship that was so promising can just be jettisoned in a couple
09:00months.
09:01How one tragedy can set off a series of events that changes the course of so many lives.
09:07They were planning on having children one day in the not so distant future.
09:11I've been Bob's friend a long time and really came to like Jane in the past two years.
09:16I was at their wedding and Jane's family all raved about what a good guy Bob is.
09:23Only a week before Bob's arrest, Jane's stepmom and father came down to visit and remarked
09:29how happy they both seemed to be.
09:32I don't even know what to make of all this and maybe you guys could help me and them
09:38both possibly understand each other's side a bit better.
09:43Do you think Jane's loyalty really was ever with Bob or did her father come between them?
09:50If you were Bob, how would you respond to receiving the dissolution of marriage summons?
09:55If you were Jane, would you stick it out with Bob if you were witness to his sincere efforts
09:59in sobriety?
10:01As long as I've known Bob, he's been a decent dude, honest to a fault, and I think he's
10:14been forthright with me about everything.
10:16For instance, he's told me that when he was having trouble being interested in his wife,
10:21Jane, so he resorted to watching a porn clip while she was getting ready for bed in an
10:25attempt to gain an erection.
10:27He even told me she caught him because when she came to bed, he left the screen open.
10:34He's been fairly outspoken against porn in the past when it comes up in conversation,
10:38so I imagine it took a good bit of honesty and humility to even bring that up to me.
10:44I know I'm biased since he was my friend before Jane was my friend, but damn, I can't even
10:48begin to unravel how a marriage, let alone their marriage, would just break up like that.
10:56What are your thoughts?
10:57My friend, thoughts I have, and it's really, I hate to use this phrase because it's kind
11:04of hackneyed, but it's really, really hard to know where to begin.
11:14So why would you want people in your life who've broken their own marriage vows at all?
11:25They're not going to convince you to stick it out.
11:30The number of divorced people I have in my social circle, at least among anybody who's
11:37close, the number of divorced people I have is zero.
11:46Because if you can't keep your vow made before God, the universe, society, family, and friends
11:52and everyone, if you can't keep your vow to stick together no matter what, for better,
11:57for worse, in sickness and in health, till death do you part, what do you think is going
12:02to happen when you run into marital difficulties?
12:04What are they going to say?
12:06Is Jane's dad really going to say to Jane, well, you have to stick it out no matter what,
12:12when he went through a brutal divorce in Jane's teens, right?
12:21So if you have people who've betrayed their marriage vows around, they're going to counsel
12:27you most likely to betray your marriage vows, right?
12:32So that's pretty clear.
12:38I did not find the first year of marriage challenging, that was fine.
12:42So family of origin issues, you said, the first year, such as Jane's divorced parents
12:45and how her often meddlesome stepmother can be divisive in pitting Jane's mother and father
12:49against each other.
12:52So why would you want manipulative, dysfunctional people in your life?
12:57Like why?
12:58This is as clear as day, for God's sakes, my God, how many times do I have to repeat
13:04this?
13:05If you have difficult people in your life, your life becomes difficult.
13:08Choose your companions, you choose your future.
13:10Choose your social circle, you choose your outcomes in life.
13:13That's it.
13:14It's all there is.
13:16The people around you are the train tracks of your life because those are the values
13:20you accept.
13:21Those are the values you treasure.
13:22Those are the values you will accept.
13:24You can't have more integrity than the person around you with the least integrity.
13:28You can't have more honesty than the person around you with the least honesty.
13:31You can't have more virtue than the least virtuous person around.
13:35That's it.
13:36That's how it works.
13:39Can you be functionally more healthy than your least healthy body part?
13:44Oh, one of my arms has gangrene, but the rest of me is fine.
13:48You're not?
13:49Fine.
13:50It spreads.
13:51I honestly don't know how many times I have to say this, and nobody's listening.
13:56Drives me a little crazy.
13:58Well, they have all of these divorced and dysfunctional and manipulative and half-incestuous
14:03road-motionally-betray-blah-blah.
14:04Oh, boy, their marriage didn't work out.
14:08Well, of course it didn't.
14:10Oh, God.
14:14You can't have ... A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
14:25You can't be stronger than the weakest person in your social circle.
14:30You can't be more mature than the least mature person in your social circle.
14:35You can't have a commitment to vows and promises than the person with the least commitment
14:44to vows and promises in your environment.
14:49Everybody thinks that integrity is just a choice you make in relationship to your own
14:59conscience.
15:00No.
15:01No, no, no.
15:02A thousand times no.
15:04Integrity is the choice you make in the people you surround yourself with, because we all
15:10need reinforcements with regards to integrity.
15:13And if you choose people who have no integrity, that will spread to you.
15:17You will lose your integrity.
15:22Jane's father had a brutal divorce with Jane's mother when Jane ran into marital difficulties.
15:32Her father gave her a place to stay, maybe probably counseled her to do this annulment
15:36thing and so on.
15:37Of course.
15:38How could it be otherwise?
15:42A brutal divorce is when both of the parties are right-fighting.
15:47They're saying, I'm right, Jane's father says, I'm right, your mother is wrong, the mother
15:54says vice versa, there's self-righteousness, and there is an ability to convince yourself
16:00that you're an angel, the other person is the devil.
16:03And when you have people who take that foundational lack of responsibility in their lives, that
16:08I'm just the angel and they're just the devil, I'm perfectly good.
16:12I'm reasonable.
16:13They're perfectly bad and unreasonable.
16:14I'm willing to negotiate.
16:16They're just hardening their hearts and I'm telling the truth.
16:19When you have people who justify themselves to that degree and don't take responsibility
16:23for their choices, that will spread to you, that will spread to Jane, that will spread
16:26to Bob, that will spread to everyone in their environment.
16:29How are you going to hold yourself to the standards called take goddamn responsibility
16:34for your life when you have self-justifying, lying right-fighters in your environment?
16:38It won't happen.
16:43Virtue in the modern world, it's like an Olympic sport, right?
16:52You got, I don't know, what is it, soccer, 11 players, you got 11 players on your team
16:56and you want to win the Olympic sport called virtue and integrity in the modern world.
17:03So, let's say that you and one other guy, you and Doug, Doug, you and Doug are fantastic
17:19soccer players and the other nine players on your team are totally crap.
17:28They're terrible.
17:29They trip, they fall, they tie their shoelaces together, they fake injuries even before they
17:33get on the pitch, they red card themselves and they keep catching the ball like it's
17:38basketball.
17:41You got two good players and nine players who are just terrible.
17:48What happens to that team?
17:52Everyone around you is a teammate in your conscience.
17:56Everyone around you is a teammate in your integrity and you want to go for the gold,
18:00you cannot have bad players on your team.
18:04If you want to have bad players on your team, that's fine, then don't go for the gold.
18:14If you say, well, you know, I want my dysfunctional family around because I love them, I love
18:20them, all right, that's fine, then you love dysfunction.
18:26You love dysfunction, you love manipulation, you love betrayal, you love narcissism, you
18:32love self-righteousness, self-justification, you love falsehood, okay, so that's what you
18:37love, that's what you're attached to, that's what you prefer.
18:46I mean, if you want to get to the Olympic gold and you only put people on your soccer
18:55team who are related to you, you're going to lose.
19:00Then just look, just say, we're going to stay in Trash Planet, we're going to stay in Trash
19:06World, we're going to stay in the underworld, we're going to stay with manipulative, self-righteous,
19:10justifying, NPC, nonsense, defensive, lying people, right, we're going to do that, okay,
19:14then accept that.
19:15We're going to have a pretty crap marriage that's going to be constantly buffeted and
19:19undermined by all the dysfunctions of people around us and then just accept that.
19:23I mean, but we're going to have a great marriage surrounded by terrible people, yes, we're
19:27going to get the Olympic gold when we hire eight grandmothers to be our teammates.
19:32All right, so, you have weak men around, according to what you're, and I don't know the truth
19:45of any of this, right, I'm just going by your report, so obviously I don't know any independent
19:50truth, so I'm just going by what you're saying, I'm going to assume that what you say is true,
19:54of course I don't know for sure, but, happy wife, happy life, so you've got appeasers
19:59who aren't even close to being equal with their wives.
20:05This happy wife, happy life stuff is just terrible.
20:12That's just a self-destructive lie.
20:14Yeah, passive weak fathers, okay.
20:23So Bob was subject to his mother's wild vacillations and moods along with torrents of insane verbal
20:29abuse when he was a child, okay.
20:32So I'm not sure if I remember this, but I think so, were these abusers and people who
20:39put Jane through a terrible divorce in her teens, a very vulnerable time, were they at
20:46the wedding?
20:47I mean, assume you were there, were they at the wedding?
20:50Okay, so if you have vicious child abusers at your wedding, it is a celebration of immorality.
21:01It is a circle from hell, it is a pentagram pretending to be a wedding ring.
21:09You have, and it sounds like they're unrepentant, you have unrepentant vicious child abusers
21:14at your wedding, it is a celebration not of love, but of contempt.
21:20It is not a celebration of connectedness, but of exploitation.
21:23It is not a celebration of unity, but of coercion and division.
21:30It is not a celebration of making someone whole, but breaking them into a thousand thousand
21:33thousand pieces.
21:36So that's the life, that's the life that Bob and Jane and you choose, to be surrounded
21:42by messed up dysfunctional people.
21:48That's your life, that's your life, this is what's going to happen.
21:53Choose the actions, you choose the consequences, right?
21:55If you choose to jump off a cliff and then you're surprised when you fall, I really don't
21:59have any sympathy.
22:02Alright, so, then, when you're living in Trash Planet, shitty things happen all the, all
22:18the, all the, all the, all the, all the time.
22:20You just pinball, bing, bing, bing, bouncing off, terrible things happening.
22:24So-and-so had a big fight, so-and-so moved out, so-and-so was sick, so-and-this one of
22:28course there was a suicide and so on, right?
22:30That's a suicide, that's a suicide.
22:38So, three-month-old marriage, 13-year-old nephew had killed himself, gunshot to the
22:44head, 13-year-old killed himself.
22:50It's tragic, it's awful, and frankly, you should be a thousand fucking miles away from
22:57any environment where this stuff is going on.
23:02You should be in no way, shape, or form anywhere near this kind of activity or event, anywhere
23:09near.
23:10So, Bob and Jane got married into an orbit where a 13-year-old boy shoots himself in
23:24the head.
23:28Are you crazy?
23:29Is he crazy?
23:30Why would you want to be anywhere near this kind of horrifying, absolute catastrophe?
23:39You've got to run from this kind of stuff.
23:44Because what happened was, according to what you say, which again I'm going to accept
23:49is true, the nephew kills himself, and the family's in turmoil, and Bob can't sleep,
23:56and Bob can't eat, and Bob doesn't want to have sex with his wife, although I can't imagine
24:01that anyone would want to feel sexual excitement during a time of such absolute catastrophe.
24:10So, this is what happens.
24:12This is what happens when you stay around dysfunctional people.
24:16You get manipulations, you get messes, you get betrayals, you get alcoholism, you get
24:22dysfunction, drug addiction, divorces, maybe the occasional suicide.
24:26When you're in this environment, this is the kind of shit that's regularly going to come
24:30down the conveyor belt of your life, towards your open mouth.
24:33So, you say, Bob is distraught to the point where he picked up alcohol again, after five
24:37years sobriety.
24:42So, as you know from the stuff that I've worked on for many years, in my obviously amateur
24:50view, addiction is a pain management approach.
24:57To dealing with the agony caused by early childhood trauma.
25:01So, you spend a lot of time sewing up these wounds.
25:06It never heals completely.
25:08You can sew it up as the song goes.
25:09You can sew it up, but you still feel the tear.
25:15So, it is early wounds, early pain management.
25:23So, it is early wounds that cause alcoholism, or that make you more susceptible to whatever
25:31addictive situation you've got going on.
25:35And so, if you're going to stick around the family that gave you the wounds that you're
25:38bathing in alcohol to deal with, then you are simply on the countdown clock to drinking
25:45again.
25:48You're on the countdown clock to drinking again.
25:51So, some people, you know, they have surgery and they're given like, I don't know, Percocets
25:55or some sort of opiates or painkillers or whatever, right?
25:58And then they take the painkillers while the pain of the surgery is going on, and then
26:01the pain of the surgery goes away and they stop taking this stuff.
26:04Should they have another surgery at some point in the future, they might take more painkillers
26:08so the painkillers are associated with new wounds.
26:11Honestly, it's completely dispiriting that you don't mention anything about separating
26:15from toxic people.
26:16Well, you know, I told them that the family is dysfunctional and messed up, and if they
26:18want to start a new life and a new leaf, they need to get this sorted out in the two years
26:24or two and a half years that they were together before they got married.
26:27They need to sort things out with their family of origin.
26:31Get them good or get them bad.
26:32And I think that's a good thing.
26:33I think that's a good thing.
26:34Before they got married, they need to sort things out with their family of origin.
26:39Get them good or get them gone.
26:42What's the matter with you?
26:43Why don't you help your friend?
26:46Why don't you help him?
26:49Have him call in.
26:50Something.
26:52Give him the book Real Time Relationships.
26:54Maybe you did, but you don't say anything about it here.
26:56So I can only go with what you've said a lot here.
26:59You didn't say anything about that.
27:00You didn't say anything about that.
27:01They shouldn't have been around these dysfunctional, messed up, screwed up people.
27:05Immature, manipulative people who raise boys to shoot themselves in the head.
27:12Why?
27:13Did you tell him that your marriage will not survive being around such dysfunctional people?
27:19I mean, it may survive in terms of you'll stay married, but it won't survive in any
27:22meaningful loving fashion.
27:27Oh, no.
27:28They made a vow that he was going to have some leadership in the family.
27:35But then if male leadership in certain areas within the family is important, then what
27:40do you do with these weak-ass, spineless, boomer jellyfish, desiccated, half-balled
27:47non-entities?
27:49Oh, just keep them around.
27:50Everything will be fine.
27:52So he picked up alcohol again after five years sobriety.
27:55No.
27:56He picked up alcohol because you didn't tell him to get the dysfunctional people either
28:02fixed or gone.
28:08It's on you, my friend.
28:10It's on you.
28:11Because when you're someone's friend, you're supposed to care for them.
28:14You're supposed to love Bob.
28:15You're supposed to love Jane.
28:17And if you moved heaven and earth to try and get Bob to fix his relationships or get away,
28:28then you're sabotaging him.
28:31And there's nothing in this.
28:32Oh, I should have done this.
28:33I should have done that.
28:35You're sabotaging him.
28:37I don't know why you want to sabotage him, but this is blindingly obvious, and you've
28:40listened to this show for a long time, I assume.
28:43So why aren't you telling him what he needs to hear?
28:50That if you're around shitty people, your life is shitty.
28:58You are courting disaster to stay in the orbit of messed up, dysfunctional, manipulative,
29:04predatory people.
29:06Cold people.
29:13I'm going to practice swimming in the Bay of Sharks.
29:19Because, you know, I'm not going to bump into anyone there because no one's swimming there.
29:22And if you don't say, you know, it's called the Bay of Sharks, you could lose a leg.
29:26And you're like, yeah, yeah, go for it, man.
29:28I'll come down.
29:29I'll cheer you on.
29:30I don't know why you want Bob to fail.
29:31I don't know why you want Jane to fail.
29:33But if you withheld from them the necessary information, then you're just throwing boat
29:38anchors at a drowning guy.
29:40And you say, ah, yes, but I did tell him this.
29:42I did tell him this.
29:43I did tell him this.
29:44It's like, OK, so you realize how this is spread, right?
29:47This is spread.
29:49It's gone from the messed up family to Bob and Jane to you to me.
29:54And I'm stopping it right here.
29:58Dysfunctional, messed up people are manipulative losers who will drag you down every time.
30:06Every single day of the week and twice on Sundays, they will drag you down.
30:11What is the key to having a great life?
30:13Having great people around you.
30:15That's it.
30:17That's it.
30:22How do you have a successful boat voyage?
30:25Well, one of the things you probably shouldn't have is enough fucking ballast on your ship
30:30to weigh it down and sink it.
30:33That's all.
30:36How do you win a running race?
30:38I can tell you this.
30:39Not in a suit of plate armor, you don't.
30:41You want to have a great life?
30:43Everybody looks within, and I've got to have this, and I've got to learn this skill.
30:46No, just, oh, God, just have great people around you.
30:49That's all it is.
30:52Oh, God, have the self-respect.
30:55Have the self-respect to not have people in your life who drive a child to shoot himself.
31:01Stop having people like this in your life.
31:07Oh, but we've got to be there to help the kids.
31:09You can't.
31:10You can't.
31:11You can't.
31:12You can't.
31:13You can't.
31:14You can't.
31:15You can't.
31:16You can't.
31:26Is Bob and Jane's life better off for staying in this orbit?
31:29Nope.
31:30Did the kid get saved?
31:31Nope.
31:32But the trauma spread.
31:34Splash damage is a real thing.
31:40So he picked up alcohol because you didn't tell him to get the dysfunctional people out
31:45of his life if he wants a happy marriage with Jane.
31:47And if he says, oh, well, Jane didn't want to get the dysfunctional people out of her
31:51life, okay, then don't marry Jane.
31:54Don't marry Jane if she won't get her screwed up dysfunctional family out of her life.
32:02Or anyone.
32:04Her friend.
32:05It doesn't matter.
32:08Choose your companions.
32:10Choose your fate.
32:13Choose your teammates.
32:14Choose victory or loss.
32:18You hang around with fat, lazy people, you're going to get fat and lazy.
32:21You hang around with people who exercise, you're going to end up exercising.
32:24You hang around with people who eat garbage, you'll end up eating garbage.
32:27You hang around with people who eat well, you'll end up eating well.
32:30You hang around with people who tell the truth, you're going to end up telling the truth.
32:33You hang around with people who lie, you're going to end up as a liar.
32:43You've listened to this show for a while.
32:44Your friend Bob's not drinking.
32:46Do you say to him, hey, that's probably because you're triggered because the fact is you keep
32:49all of these dysfunctional, messed up, screwed up people around in your life.
32:52It's going to poison your mind.
32:54It's going to poison your marriage.
32:55It's going to re-traumatize you.
32:56You're going to be like a D-Day veteran going to watch Saving Private Ryan and thinking
33:00he can have a nice nap.
33:08His mother was violent, verbally, towards him.
33:13And the trauma passes from the parents to the boy who killed himself, to Bob, to Jane,
33:24to Bob's alcoholism, to the fact that he, after a fight during a night out at the bar.
33:31So he told Jane he was at an AA meeting at the time, and then he called from Jane.
33:37He called from jail.
33:43Right.
33:45Right.
33:48Because he lied his ass off to his wife.
33:51He told his wife he was going to AA.
33:54He went to a bar to drink.
33:56He got into a fight, and he got arrested for, as you say, this misdemeanor assault.
34:04After he said, I'm never going to drink again, he drank again.
34:09He said he was going to an AA meeting.
34:11He called from jail.
34:12So he's around liars and manipulators, and he becomes a liar and manipulator.
34:16Or he remains a liar and a manipulator.
34:19You choose circumstances, you choose your marriage.
34:21You choose your companions, you choose the course of your marriage.
34:32So, yes, he has visitors.
34:36So Jane brought her father.
34:49I mean, he married a woman.
34:50As you say, she has a possible emotionally incestuous relationship with her father.
34:57So Bob betrayed this man's daughter, and this man went to come and talk to Bob with his daughter.
35:07And Bob chickened out of the conversation.
35:11You sit down, you look the man in the eye, and you have that conversation.
35:18So that's what you do.
35:24So he refused to sit down and talk with them at all.
35:26So, you lied, you told this man's daughter you weren't going to drink, you started drinking.
35:39You told this man's daughter you were going to AA.
35:41You went to a bar, got drunk, got into a fight, got arrested.
35:46What do you think a father's going to do?
35:51I mean, imagine if you have a daughter, and this is who she married.
35:54And then he won't even sit down and have that conversation?
35:57No, no, no, no.
36:11I get the in-sickness and in-health stuff, for sure, but you want to...
36:16The in-sickness and in-health is supposed to be around things that happen to you that are unpredictable, right?
36:24So in-sickness and in-health is, if you get struck by some random illness, which certainly happened to me,
36:31if you get struck by some random illness, you're supposed to hang on to someone and not just dump them
36:37because they happen to get sick through no particular fault of their own.
36:41That's what in-sickness and in-health means.
36:45If someone ends up in hospital and paralyzed because they got into an accident while driving drunk,
36:57that is a different matter.
37:00In-sickness and in-health refers to things that happen to you, not things that you do.
37:07Right?
37:11So, you know, we're in or we're out of the money.
37:15So there are oscillations in the financial ebb and flow of life.
37:20Trust me, I know. There are oscillations in the financial ebb and flow of life.
37:24So it's saying, if you happen to come upon hard times through no fault of your own, right?
37:33I mean, you have a business and then some big giant conglomerate starts a company in that space
37:40and elbows you out and you lose 75% of your revenue or, you know,
37:44I told the truth, got deplatformed and lost even more than that.
37:47So there's oscillations and vacillations in financial life through no fault of your own.
37:55Or the government passes some law or AI comes along and your graphics design skills become less valuable.
38:01Right? Yes, there's vacillations in the up and down of life.
38:08Money comes, sometimes money goes, whatever, right?
38:12That's those natural vacillations where it is not your doing primarily.
38:18Maybe you could have been a bit more alert to upcoming competition,
38:21but it's not your fault primarily that misfortune is happening to you.
38:29However, it's a little different if you keep betting on the ponies
38:34or going down to the greyhound racetrack and putting all your money on Slim Jim number 666
38:40and you keep blowing all the money through a gambling addiction.
38:43Well, that's not something that's happening to you.
38:46That is something you're doing.
38:49It's the difference between getting roofied through no fault of your own
38:53and having a voluntary affair.
39:00So what is it that happened to Bob through no fault of his own
39:06or through little fault of his own?
39:08Well, Bob chose to stay in the orbit.
39:12Now, that's Bob's choice to stay in that environment.
39:17And if you didn't warn Bob about it and you've not mentioned one goddamned thing about that,
39:22if you didn't warn Bob about that, that's fine.
39:26But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:29But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:32But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:35But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:38But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:41But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:44But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:47But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:50But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:53But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:56But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
39:59But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:02But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:05But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:08But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:11But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:14But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:17But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:20But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:23But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:26But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:29But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:32But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:35But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:38But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:41But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:44But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:47But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:50But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:53But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:56But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
40:59But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:02But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:05But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:08But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:11But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:14But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:17But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:20But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:23But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:26But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:29But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:32But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:35But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:38But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:41But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:44But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:47But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:50But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:53But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:56But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
41:59But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
42:02But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
42:05But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
42:08But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
42:11But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
42:14But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
42:17But if you didn't warn Bob about it, that's fine.
42:20If somebody's accidentally sick through no fault of their own, you don't divorce them.
42:23Somebody's a chain smoker and gets sick, that's a different matter.
42:26If you beg them to quit, they don't quit, they get sick.
42:32But then, of course, you're choosing someone who doesn't listen to you.
42:39It's not accidents that happen to people for the most part.
42:45It is the entirely predictable consequences of very specific choices.
42:52It is the entirely predictable consequences of very specific choices.
42:55Know the f**k better, you know better.
42:59You should have warned them that if they keep screwed up, dysfunctional people in their lives,
43:03Their lives will also be disastrous.
43:06Their lives will also be disastrous.
43:15And it only takes one.
43:20It only takes one.
43:21You know, we got five chefs working on the soup.
43:25The soup is fantastic, perfect, and beautiful.
43:28Only one of those chefs drained the vein and peed into the soup
43:33tureen.
43:34Only one!
43:35The other four, they didn't do anything.
43:37But only one pe- Well, how much pee does it take to screw up the soup?
43:42Any amount of pee.
43:49It's like you watch Bob pour his entire life savings into a business, and then you cancel
43:53that he hire a kleptomaniac to be his accountant.
43:57And only you know about the kleptomania, Bob doesn't.
44:00And then you're just sabotaging Bob.
44:01Oh, I've been a friend of Bob's for such a long time.
44:03No, you haven't.
44:04I was at their wedding, and they raved, oh, what a good guy Bob is, blah, blah, blah,
44:08blah, blah.
44:09Oh, really?
44:10Oh, the family where there was a brutal divorce turned on someone.
44:16What do you think a brutal divorce is other than turning on the person you claimed you
44:20were going to love for the rest of your life?
44:23It's so surprising.
44:24I can't- How could the- How could the- How could the family where they all turned on
44:29each other like a pack of jackals end up turning on Bob?
44:33It's weird.
44:37Wow, they lied and have unstable bonds?
44:42The people who had a brutal divorce lied and have unstable bonds?
44:46What could this mean?
44:47What cosmic mystery can be unraveled here without the Rosetta Stone of two and two make
44:52four?
44:55Jesus.
44:58God above.
45:04And you write all of this.
45:07You write all of this to little old me.
45:11What is the matter with you?
45:14I'm sorry to be so brutal, but what is the matter with you?
45:18You know, he's- he's honest.
45:22He's honest to a fault.
45:28I can't even begin to unravel how a marriage could just break up like that.
45:33It's a mystery.
45:36I don't know.
45:37Oh, it's- Oh, my God.
45:40Who could possibly crack this hieroglyphics?
45:44Who can decipher these alien scrawls like kanji contrails in a windy sky writing on
45:55the surface of a lake?
45:56Who could possibly unravel?
46:01How people surrounded by corrupt betrayers could themselves end up in a situation of
46:06corrupt betrayal?
46:12Don't play dumb with me.
46:15Don't even try.
46:17This precious, pearl-clutching, Victorian, smelling-salt-couch-fainting preciousness-
46:24Oh, it's so mysterious.
46:26It's so stiff.
46:27How could this possibly come to pass?
46:29It's so- Oh, my God.
46:33This is a family where a little boy shot himself.
46:40Shot himself.
46:43Verbal abuse, quasi-incestuous emotional clinginess, a vicious, brutal divorce.
46:52Weak men bullying dominant women.
46:58A manipulative stepmother who sets father and mother against each other.
47:08Well, my family took a long, slow dump in my sandwich, Steph.
47:14Why don't I like the taste of my sandwich?
47:18Don't try, man.
47:19Don't try.
47:20Don't spin this gossamer web of infinite bullshit around my brain.
47:25It's ridiculous.
47:27Surrounded by corrupt people, you enabled all of this, and now you come to me,
47:31Huh, the mysteries are too deep to possibly fathom.
47:35I don't know.
47:37No, this is pitiful, man.
47:39It's pitiful.
47:40Look, be around corrupt people.
47:42I mean, hey, it's not a violation of the non-aggression principle.
47:45Maybe for the kids, but not for the adults.
47:47You can choose to be around corrupt, lying, manipulative, destructive people who cause
47:51the suicide of a little boy.
47:58Yep, you can choose to be around those people.
48:04But then don't write to me and tell me that it's an incomprehensible mystery.
48:14That's sad, and I won't have it.