Catalina, la abuela de Loan Peña y Matías, ex compañero de Victoria Caillava, una de las detenidas y mayores acusadas por la desaparición del niño en Corrientes, estuvieron hablando con Daniel Gretzschel.
En los móviles, desde 9 de Julio, estuvieron Cristian Eche y Facundo Muñoz.
En los móviles, desde 9 de Julio, estuvieron Cristian Eche y Facundo Muñoz.
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00:00:00Todo el país en vilo por Lohan.
00:00:06Habla Catalina, la abuela de Lohan.
00:00:12Catalina.
00:00:13Claudelina se quiere quedar con todo lo mío.
00:00:22Bien.
00:00:23Explicame, Rodri, ¿cómo es esta situación que estamos viviendo
00:00:28en donde una madre habla directamente de su hija
00:00:31y la hace sospechar?
00:00:33Habla, no, vos hables directamente.
00:00:36De la intención de quedarse con todo, dale.
00:00:39Hablame, ahí está.
00:00:41La estructura en la cual Catalina fue criada
00:00:44y desarrolló toda su vida de autosubsistencia en el campo
00:00:50y en donde se supone que la familia tiene que perdurar
00:00:53y seguir estando dentro de ese ámbito.
00:00:56Los dos hijos se le fueron y tomaron otras opciones.
00:01:00Podemos después pensar si estas opciones tienen que ver
00:01:02con algo de la delincuencia o no,
00:01:04pero de alguna manera hay como una especie de traición
00:01:07al mandato familiar.
00:01:08¿Cómo hay una especie de traición?
00:01:10Ay, yo noto dolor en Catalina.
00:01:12Sí.
00:01:13Dolor, bronca, resentimiento.
00:01:16Claro, además hace...
00:01:19hacia María, que es la pareja de José,
00:01:22y hacia Benítez, que es la pareja de Laudelina.
00:01:25Son los extranjeros al clan familiar.
00:01:28A mí me da la sensación de que Catalina entiende
00:01:30que le robaron a los hijos.
00:01:32Que María le roba a José, que Benítez le roba a Laudelina,
00:01:36más allá de lo que piensa de cada una.
00:01:39Una cosa es María y otra cosa es Benítez
00:01:42en la imagen o en la idea de Catalina.
00:01:45Quizás nos pueda decir, pero me da la impresión
00:01:48que tu idea, Catalina, era de que tus hijos
00:01:51con sus respectivas parejas y los hijos,
00:01:54tus nietos, vivieran o estuvieran con vos
00:01:57dentro de lo que es el predio, tu campo, tu casa,
00:02:00conviviendo ahí.
00:02:02Claro, además vos fíjate que hace referencia en un momento
00:02:05cuando dice yo estuve con mi mamá hasta último momento
00:02:09y ella no, ella se fue.
00:02:12Esperá, Catalina, ¿vos aceptarías, escúchame bien,
00:02:17¿vos aceptarías que Laudelina y Benítez vivieran
00:02:22en tu campo o que José y María vivan con vos
00:02:26allí en el campo?
00:02:33Dije cuando era joven, tengo que tener muchos hijos
00:02:35para que no me quede sola al Rinaldo.
00:02:37Claro.
00:02:38Me quede sola, sola, sola, sola,
00:02:40con las gallinas y los perros.
00:02:43Ahí está el dolor a la madre.
00:02:46¿Te das cuenta?
00:02:47Lo que pasa es que está criada en otro...
00:02:49¿Es un quiebre de alguna manera en la estructura familiar?
00:02:51Claro, pero es una mentalidad de justamente 80 y pico
00:02:54de años cuando los hijos tienen que estar al lado
00:02:58de los padres eternamente.
00:03:02A mí me da la sensación, yo estoy buscando acá
00:03:04en mi kanji que me trajo la producción,
00:03:07gracias a la producción por traerme la tabla de kanji
00:03:09que tengo todos los datos de la semana,
00:03:11de la información que vamos recogiendo.
00:03:15Alguien que nos está escuchando, Fran, me dice,
00:03:18¿puede estar en ese dolor de madre que tiene Catalina
00:03:23influenciada a la declaración contra, por ejemplo, Benítez?
00:03:27Ese dolor de decir Benítez me llevó a Laudelina
00:03:30o ese dolor María se quedó con José.
00:03:33¿Puede influir ese dolor de madre en la declaración
00:03:36ante la justicia de lo que piensa Catalina
00:03:38que pasó con Lohan o no?
00:03:39Y siempre, yo calculo que sí.
00:03:41Es una mujer, Catalina, una mujer de carne y hueso
00:03:45que es madre, que le está doliendo seguramente
00:03:48todo lo que le está atravesando, pero pese a eso
00:03:50está haciendo lo mayor objetiva posible en su testimonio
00:03:53porque de un lado tiene a su hija,
00:03:55pero del otro lado tiene a su nieto Lohan.
00:04:02¿Cuál era el sentimiento que tenías, Catalina,
00:04:04para con Lohan vos?
00:04:05Porque no lo viste mucho a Lohan.
00:04:06En dos oportunidades lo viste a Nene vos.
00:04:09No mucho.
00:04:11¿Tenías una muy buena relación con Lohan Nene?
00:04:13El sentimiento.
00:04:15El sentimiento que tengo que justo vino acá a visitarme
00:04:19y para desaparecer de acá.
00:04:21Lo que más sentimental tengo yo porque nunca venía.
00:04:27¿Y qué, te sentís culpable?
00:04:28Me siento.
00:04:29¿Sentís culpa, Catalina, de que justo ese día
00:04:31fue al campo tuyo y lo vi?
00:04:32Sí.
00:04:34Es la primera vez que dice que siente culpa.
00:04:38Es la primera vez que una criatura se perdió de la zona.
00:04:42¿Escuchaste, Cristian?
00:04:43Vos que estuviste muchas veces con Catalina.
00:04:45Es la primera vez que dice
00:04:46siento culpa porque desapareció de mi campo.
00:04:50Sí, sí, la verdad que hace más de 80 años
00:04:53que Catalina vive acá,
00:04:55que hace más de 80 años que esto no ocurrió.
00:04:57Realmente siempre detrás de cámara estuvimos con Catalina.
00:05:00Yo a lo personal es la primera vez que la entrevisto,
00:05:02pero ya la había visto antes.
00:05:04Siempre me daba cosas como molestarla,
00:05:06pero la verdad que muy agradecido, Catalina,
00:05:08nos abriste las puertas de tu casa, a todo el equipo.
00:05:11Y realmente estamos acá para apoyar
00:05:14porque salimos afuera hace varios días.
00:05:17Había gente, había movimiento,
00:05:19y ahora salimos a un patio y no hay nadie.
00:05:21¿Con qué te encontrás?
00:05:22Estás sola.
00:05:24Claro, un poco desolada, ¿entendés?
00:05:28Abuela, que ya pasaron casi dos meses,
00:05:31mañana justamente se cumplen dos meses.
00:05:34¿Cómo crees que va a continuar todo?
00:05:36La búsqueda del OAN,
00:05:37si lo están buscando o no lo están buscando también.
00:05:40Sí, lo están siguiendo buscando,
00:05:42siguen buscando, buscando,
00:05:43pero no se encuentra,
00:05:44ya no está más cerca, ya está lejos.
00:05:47Vos tenías una hipótesis,
00:05:48los primeros días,
00:05:49los primeros momentos que el OAN desaparece.
00:05:52¿Cuál era esa hipótesis?
00:05:53¿Para vos qué es lo que había pasado?
00:05:55Bueno, ahí yo,
00:05:57ese hipótesis que decía,
00:06:00que no estaba lejos.
00:06:02Que no estaba lejos.
00:06:03Pero no se buscó por donde estaba él,
00:06:05por ahí le alejaron,
00:06:07le alejaron y ahora no se sabe por dónde está.
00:06:09¿Vos pensás que buscaron mal entonces?
00:06:11¿De qué lado estaba al principio?
00:06:12Acá, de esta casa al norte,
00:06:14de mi casa para el norte,
00:06:16para la salida del camino.
00:06:18Christian, a ver,
00:06:20el domingo pasado...
00:06:21No, te estamos escuchando.
00:06:22Claro, por ahí yo le dije al padre,
00:06:24no, ya buscaron todo por ahí,
00:06:26no hay nada, me dijo.
00:06:28Pero sentís que tardaron en buscar.
00:06:30Yo quería ir a andar por ahí,
00:06:32pero no me quisieron llevar
00:06:33porque yo soy vieja,
00:06:34ya voy a caminar poco,
00:06:35que ya me haya cansado,
00:06:36por la más ciega,
00:06:37por los cardales,
00:06:38qué sé yo,
00:06:39entonces no me fui.
00:06:40Pero vos querías ir a buscarlo.
00:06:41Yo quería ir a buscarlo.
00:06:44Porque me parecía que yo le llegaba a donde estaba él.
00:06:46¿Y te dejaron o no te dejaron ir a buscarlo?
00:06:49¿No te dejaron en ningún momento ir a buscarlo?
00:06:51No, no me dejaron ir a buscarlo.
00:06:53¿Quién no te dejó, Catalina?
00:06:54Encima vino el secretario de gobierno
00:06:56y me dijo, vamos, la camioneta,
00:06:58vamos a buscarle.
00:06:59Me dijo, vamos, yo ando todo por ahí,
00:07:00por la costa de la laguna,
00:07:02a ver si no hay yacares
00:07:03que le agarró y le dio en el medio del agua.
00:07:06No, le dije, no, no hay yacares.
00:07:08La gente come todos los yacares.
00:07:10¿Vos en qué momento, abuela,
00:07:12ya creíste o sabías
00:07:14que a Lohan se lo habían llevado,
00:07:15no que se había perdido?
00:07:16¿En qué momento te diste cuenta vos
00:07:18a él se lo llevaron, no se perdió?
00:07:21Yo me di cuenta que Benitez
00:07:24tenía algún pálpite con otro.
00:07:27A aquel lado del monte, mirá,
00:07:29por aquel lado no hay nadie,
00:07:30no hay más casas,
00:07:31estas dos casas, yo y estos otros que salen.
00:07:34A aquel lado no hay más casas,
00:07:35por todo el monte.
00:07:37A aquel lado hay las casas,
00:07:38pero todo vacío.
00:07:39¿Ese mismo día o pasando los días?
00:07:42Ese mismo día, yo dije,
00:07:43este habrá estado Benitez
00:07:45comunicado con algunos
00:07:46que le vienen a buscar,
00:07:47a llevarle,
00:07:48y la criatura solo, que es chiquito,
00:07:50y además más ciega.
00:07:51Sí, pero...
00:07:52Más ciega, más ciega.
00:07:54Catalina, ¿vos viste a alguien más
00:07:56en el campo aquel 13 de junio,
00:07:58además de los que se sentaron
00:07:59a la mesa a almorzar?
00:08:01¿Viste algún movimiento extraño
00:08:03en el campo, en el naranjal,
00:08:04por ejemplo?
00:08:08Y no, porque nosotros de este lado
00:08:10del monte no vemos nada.
00:08:11No se ve nada.
00:08:12Desde tu casa no se ve el naranjal,
00:08:14por ejemplo, si ahí hay alguien
00:08:15escondido, no lo ves.
00:08:17Sí, pero una planta,
00:08:18dos plantas viejas.
00:08:19Antes, cuando yo recién nací ahí,
00:08:21ahí era mi casa antes,
00:08:23y después vine a este lado.
00:08:25Estoy en el mismo terreno,
00:08:26pero estoy más hacia la laguna,
00:08:28viste, por el agua.
00:08:29Entonces, ese terreno se atira,
00:08:32ahí se vendió,
00:08:33y me quedé yo a este lado.
00:08:34Ahora, Cristian,
00:08:35no hay dudas de que alguien
00:08:36escondido estuvo, ¿no?
00:08:37Pero yo nací en ese lugar.
00:08:38Cuando yo nací en ese lugar,
00:08:39había la quintalinda, viste.
00:08:40Hasta ayer estuve hablando
00:08:41con mi hijo
00:08:42que hay un pozo de balde
00:08:43calzado con ladrillos y todo.
00:08:45Me dijo que sí,
00:08:47Cristian, vos que estuviste
00:08:48en el campo,
00:08:49no hay dudas que alguien
00:08:50escondido en el monte estuvo.
00:08:52Digo, si no fue Benítez
00:08:53el que se llevó a Loa
00:08:54rápidamente para regresar después,
00:08:57tiene que haber un cómplice,
00:08:58una segunda persona
00:08:59que en brazos o a caballos
00:09:01se llevó al nene del lugar,
00:09:02del naranjal.
00:09:05Mirá, Dani, analizando
00:09:06lo que fue uno de los dibujos
00:09:08de los menores de edad
00:09:09que estuvo ese día,
00:09:10analizando la cámara GESEL
00:09:12y también el trabajo
00:09:13que realizaron profesionales
00:09:16también, psicopedagogos,
00:09:18psicólogos, asistentes sociales.
00:09:21Bueno, ese trabajo
00:09:22lo que marca es que
00:09:24en la primera tranquera,
00:09:25camino al naranjal,
00:09:27en el dibujo que estaría Loa
00:09:29ni una persona mayor
00:09:30Loa llorando,
00:09:31es lo que dice
00:09:32la cámara GESEL
00:09:33los menores,
00:09:34que lo cargan a Loa
00:09:35y se lo llevan
00:09:36para el lado izquierdo,
00:09:37o sea, para el lado
00:09:38de la ruta 123.
00:09:39De ese lugar
00:09:40donde está esa tranquera,
00:09:41hay un camino que directo
00:09:42conecta hacia la tapera
00:09:44a esa escuela abandonada.
00:09:45Son 5 minutos
00:09:46caminando a paso rápido
00:09:48que vos llegás a ese lugar,
00:09:50a esa tapera,
00:09:51a esa escuela abandonada,
00:09:52donde la udelina
00:09:53en una de las declaraciones
00:09:54dijo que a Loa
00:09:55lo podrían haber entregado ahí.
00:09:57Ahora, la abuela Catalina
00:09:58tiene dos nombres,
00:09:59tiene dos nombres
00:10:00que para ella
00:10:01esos nombres
00:10:02fueron los partícipes
00:10:03por lo menos
00:10:04para sacar a Loa
00:10:05de este lugar.
00:10:06¿Cuáles eran esos nombres?
00:10:08Abuela, para vos
00:10:09hay dos personas
00:10:10que son clave en esto.
00:10:11¿Quiénes son para vos?
00:10:12A ver, a ver, a ver.
00:10:13Bueno, el Ramírez,
00:10:14el Benítez
00:10:15y el Ramírez.
00:10:16Ramírez,
00:10:17Ferrito Ramírez
00:10:18y Benítez,
00:10:19dos personas
00:10:20que coinciden
00:10:21en la geolocalización
00:10:22de las antenas
00:10:23de los teléfonos celulares
00:10:24en una distancia
00:10:25imposible
00:10:26de recorrer a pie,
00:10:27que es Mantilla.
00:10:28Claro.
00:10:31Es acertada
00:10:32la mirada
00:10:33que tiene Catalina,
00:10:35y son las dos personas
00:10:36que más,
00:10:37más hay dudas
00:10:39sobre ellas,
00:10:40¿no es cierto?
00:10:41Nos dejó frío.
00:10:43Yo para preguntarte,
00:10:44yo para preguntarte, abuela,
00:10:45un poco,
00:10:46¿qué es lo que vos pensás
00:10:47el rol
00:10:48de Pérez
00:10:49y de Cayllaba?
00:10:50¿Para vos ellos
00:10:51tienen algo que ver
00:10:52o estaban acá
00:10:53en el almuerzo
00:10:54y bueno,
00:10:55y participaron solamente
00:10:56en el almuerzo?
00:10:57¿Para vos tienen algún tipo
00:10:58de participación
00:10:59en Loa?
00:11:00En la,
00:11:01en la
00:11:02cabellada
00:11:03y en el,
00:11:04el cómo se llama,
00:11:05el Carlos,
00:11:06no,
00:11:07no tengo ningún pensar
00:11:08porque ellos
00:11:09estaban en la mesa
00:11:10y nosotros estábamos
00:11:11hablando con él,
00:11:12yo porque
00:11:13primera vez que vino
00:11:14el Carlos acá
00:11:15y,
00:11:16y la cabellada venía
00:11:17pero a hora de comer,
00:11:18a comer
00:11:19y después ya se iban
00:11:20a trabajar
00:11:21porque día domingo
00:11:22eso no,
00:11:23nunca venía.
00:11:24¿Te llamó la atención
00:11:25que se hayan levantado
00:11:26de golpe
00:11:27y se hayan ido?
00:11:28No,
00:11:29que se levantaron
00:11:30todos de golpe
00:11:31de la mesa
00:11:32y se fueron
00:11:33y nosotros
00:11:34nos quedamos
00:11:35en la mesa.
00:11:36¿Y eso te llamó
00:11:37la atención?
00:11:38Y por eso me llamó
00:11:39la atención.
00:11:40Se fueron a buscar
00:11:41quienes levantaban
00:11:42la mesa y
00:11:43Cristian,
00:11:44Cristian,
00:11:45a mí alguien.
00:11:46Pero Dani,
00:11:47se levantan todos,
00:11:48se levantan todos,
00:11:49queda Pérez y Caillaba
00:11:50con la abuela Catalina.
00:11:51Y José.
00:11:52Bien,
00:11:53se van todos al Naranjal,
00:11:54vos quedás con ellos
00:11:55dos hablando.
00:11:56Y el José.
00:11:57Y el José,
00:11:58¿no?
00:11:59Y tu hijo José.
00:12:00Ellos,
00:12:01Pérez y Caillaba,
00:12:02¿en qué momento
00:12:03se levantan
00:12:04y se van a vos?
00:12:05¿Te llama la atención
00:12:06eso?
00:12:07Se,
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01:00:26se,
01:00:27se,