The Life and Death of Lily Savage - The Life and Death of Lily Savage
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00:00:00Now we are reflecting on the really sad news that the TV presenter and comedian
00:00:06Paul O'Grady has died at the age of 67.
00:00:09Yes, of course, he rose to fame in the 1990s
00:00:12with his iconic drag queen persona, Lily Savage.
00:00:18There is a wig, there is a dress, and there's a touch of make-up.
00:00:23That's it.
00:00:24I'd like to apologise to the viewers in Wigan.
00:00:27It must be awful for you.
00:00:29People say to me now, isn't it strange that Paul O'Grady is your dad and Lily Savage?
00:00:33I'm like, I don't know any difference, so...
00:00:36Lily made me laugh in a way that I can't think of anything else that made me laugh.
00:00:41He always dragged you down to his level.
00:00:44Gutter!
00:00:47We saw, I think, in his outrage, what we should have been feeling about ourselves
00:00:52considering how badly we were treated.
00:00:54When the laws of the land were very anti-gay,
00:00:57he wasn't an actor.
00:00:59He was Lily.
00:01:01Ladies and gentlemen, the tart with the heart, Lily Savage!
00:01:04CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
00:01:20How are you all?
00:01:22Yes, sweethearts.
00:01:24Take what you like.
00:01:26Oh, come here, gorgeous.
00:01:28No tongues, no tongues.
00:01:30How are you?
00:01:35There is a rumour that there is about Mr O'Grady killing you off.
00:01:39Don't talk to me about that four-eyed flute.
00:01:41I've had enough of it.
00:01:43I'm a Richard and Judy girl.
00:01:45Are you?
00:01:49I just said to my manager, I'm not doing this any more.
00:01:52You know, and I just thought, I've got to change, I've got to have a change.
00:01:55He said, I've done everything I can do with Lily.
00:01:57I've had it. I've had it with Savage.
00:01:59And in my mind, that was the end of Lily.
00:02:01And I went, are you sure?
00:02:03Everybody loved Lily and everyone wanted Lily.
00:02:06How brave is that? I mean, who does that?
00:02:09It was a big, bold move.
00:02:16CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
00:02:26Paul was the most fearless, generous, gifted, gobbyist, achingly funny man.
00:02:34He once had business cards printed that said,
00:02:37Lily Savage, riot consultant, Brixton, Toxteth, Los Angeles.
00:02:42LAUGHTER
00:02:46And we might add Birkenhead to that, which is where it all began, of course.
00:02:50The place where his wit, values and compassion all stem from.
00:02:56Yes, he's the man behind the make-up and the miniskirt of Lily Savage,
00:02:59Paul O'Grady.
00:03:01She is, I mean, an extraordinary creation.
00:03:04Oh, yes. I had this image of this hard-bitten hooker, you know,
00:03:08from Birkenhead, her roots showing and her ripping her tights
00:03:11and her big handbag.
00:03:13The one and only Lily Savage.
00:03:15CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
00:03:18But I'm not schizo about it, though.
00:03:20The wig goes on, you've got Lily, the wig comes off, you've got me.
00:03:25She couldn't really have been as outrageous as a man,
00:03:28as he could be when he was wearing the mask.
00:03:31It's a fully realised person. Lily can answer any question.
00:03:36Lily can tell you about anything that happened in her past,
00:03:40because sort of it did happen.
00:03:42How do you explain Lily Savage?
00:03:45You know, I mean, how do you do it?
00:03:48One day, I was a quiet sort of little altar boy.
00:03:52You know, and then I saw Gypsy on the TV.
00:03:55Starring Natalie Wood, making an absolutely drop-dead gorgeous
00:03:59Gypsy Rose Lee from Young Girl into The Star Stripper.
00:04:03This is the number that got me into show business.
00:04:06You can sacrifice your sacro, working in the back room,
00:04:11bump and a dump till you're dead.
00:04:14I hadn't really seen many musicals,
00:04:16let alone musicals with strippers in it.
00:04:19I went downhill from there.
00:04:25I was enjoying growing up,
00:04:27and I was really enjoying finding out about my sexuality.
00:04:31This book, it was in a bookcase upstairs with his little...
00:04:36What he used to do, his sketches.
00:04:39I'm finding out what was on the buffet, you know, what was on the menu.
00:04:44And there's more.
00:04:47I'm Sheila, Paul's elder sister.
00:04:53He was about 14 or 15.
00:04:55He just used to sit and do them, doodle.
00:05:02That's another one.
00:05:10Are these Paul's drawings? Yeah.
00:05:13Well, what a treat.
00:05:17Well, hair, rests, legs.
00:05:22Sexy.
00:05:24Well, that was Lily.
00:05:27That's interesting.
00:05:29Glamorous women who look like they're drag queens.
00:05:34Funnily enough, I did similar things.
00:05:37I was constantly drawing a face with heavily made-up eyes.
00:05:43It's probably a subconscious thing predicting our futures.
00:05:47Some way of expressing then what we still need to express now, perhaps.
00:05:52I'm Julian Clary, and I'm a renowned homosexual.
00:05:56Oh, look!
00:05:58It's almost like he's drawn bits of Lily.
00:06:02Look at the beauty spot there and those eyes.
00:06:05He used to do that, didn't he?
00:06:07One eye shut and like...
00:06:09The embryo of Lily, innit?
00:06:11It's a library book.
00:06:13He's actually defaced a library book.
00:06:16Naughty. Naughty.
00:06:22I was born in Birkenhead, on the Wirral.
00:06:27Not a poor house, you know, just an ordinary little two-up, two-down house.
00:06:31To very Catholic parents.
00:06:33Children in the streets of Birkenhead.
00:06:37Last year, six out of seven school leavers couldn't get a job.
00:06:41For them, the prospects are bleak.
00:06:45I always sought excitement,
00:06:48and I deliberately go out of my way to find it.
00:06:53I have a romantic view of Liverpool, and it's never left me.
00:06:57So when I go over on the ferry boat,
00:07:00I still get that funny churn in my stomach when I see the Liver buildings
00:07:04and get the smell of diesel oil and salt water.
00:07:07I love it.
00:07:09As a child, it was my personal little Camelot.
00:07:12Nothing else existed.
00:07:15You're looking sensational.
00:07:17Do I have to detect a certain oriental influence in the outfit?
00:07:20Well, this is me Shanghai little look.
00:07:22It is. The deadness of the night.
00:07:25It is. The deadly white flower of the widow, honestly.
00:07:28It took more than one man to change my name to Shanghai Lily, I'm telling you.
00:07:39When I discovered the gay scene and actually met flamboyant characters,
00:07:44I thought, yeah, I want a slice of this now, thank you.
00:07:48The Liverpool gay scene in the late 70s, it was good fun.
00:07:57Although it was legal,
00:07:59it was still not out in the open as what it is now.
00:08:05My name is Moira, and I'm a friend of Paul's from 1989.
00:08:10I am Alan, also known as Vera.
00:08:13Well, I've got one sister.
00:08:15She's not actually my sister, she was adopted.
00:08:18Well, what happened was we found her on the step, you know,
00:08:21in a little basket and a label round her neck.
00:08:23She was 28, like, at the time, but...
00:08:27..that's our Vera.
00:08:28My auntie was called Vera Cheeseman,
00:08:30so when I did the double act with him, I became Vera Cheeseman.
00:08:35In the gay community, they all had girls' names.
00:08:38That was normal to me.
00:08:40Vera's always been Vera.
00:08:42My dad's best friend.
00:08:44I'm Sharon Moseley, and I'm Paul's daughter.
00:08:47Many years ago, I bought a turkey off a fella,
00:08:50off the back of a wagon.
00:08:52Now, this turkey, Barbara, was about 28 stone.
00:08:56It was rock hard, deep frozen,
00:08:58so I put it in the bath to defrost.
00:09:01So, I come in Christmas Eve, and I put my hand in the bathroom
00:09:04and grabbed it by the ankle.
00:09:06I got a big dollop of red-hot pac-man,
00:09:08I got a big dollop of red-hot paxo,
00:09:10and I was just about to shove it up her...
00:09:12And I looked, it was our Vera.
00:09:16We like the same things.
00:09:18Art, you know.
00:09:20Literature.
00:09:22Going out and getting pissed.
00:09:29The first gay bar I went to was this pretty 17-year-old.
00:09:33I go down into the bar, and I went,
00:09:35there's men dancing together.
00:09:38I'd never seen that before, obviously,
00:09:40cos I'd never been in a gay bar.
00:09:42You know, sort of men kissing on the dance floor.
00:09:45Oh, my God!
00:09:47After my first time there, I was out every night.
00:09:59Being centred on a river as famous as the Mersey,
00:10:02the docks obviously play a vital role in the area's life.
00:10:07Liverpool was a thriving port.
00:10:09Now, a thriving port means thriving sailors.
00:10:12Paul would pick up sailors at Liverpool docks
00:10:15and bring them back for a bit of,
00:10:17shall we say, friendly entertainment.
00:10:20He was obsessed with strippers, prostitutes and tarts.
00:10:25And what used to make me laugh was,
00:10:27if you went in the gay bars then with a gang of sailors,
00:10:30you were instantly branded as a tart.
00:10:32I absolutely reveled in this notoriety.
00:10:38I used to work in a pub.
00:10:40All the sailors used to come in, and a gang of Chinese came in one night.
00:10:44So off I went to this Chinese ship, best meal ever,
00:10:48booze flowing, fucking hoot.
00:10:50And then, of course, I go into work the next night,
00:10:52and there was a very sardonic barman called Brownian,
00:10:55and he said, oh, here she is, Shanghai Lily.
00:10:58That's where they came from.
00:11:00So it stuck. I was known as Shanghai Lily.
00:11:07I've got a real eye-opener for you now,
00:11:09someone you may not have had in your living room before.
00:11:12Now, she's a self-made woman,
00:11:14probably from the bits that no-one else wanted, actually.
00:11:17Give us a bit about your background, then.
00:11:19I'm actually from a little fishing village.
00:11:22It's opposite Liverpool. It's called Birkenhead.
00:11:26LAUGHTER
00:11:31We knew what poverty was when I was a kid.
00:11:34So I thought, I'll go to London and try and earn some money.
00:11:37You know, that's what happened.
00:11:39I used to be a social worker, believe it or not.
00:11:42Honestly, yeah, yeah.
00:11:45I didn't know anyone else like Paul.
00:11:48I mean, obviously very, very funny and unique,
00:11:52but I did actually really care about injustices in the world
00:11:57and did a lot of very kind things that no-one knows about.
00:12:03I was a peripatetic care officer, basically a skivvy.
00:12:07Rather than split the kids up and put them into various homes and stuff,
00:12:11I'd go in and look after them.
00:12:13He was always a very caring person,
00:12:15which is why I think he was a social worker for so long,
00:12:19even while he was doing his act.
00:12:22Well, I think he used to have, like...
00:12:24He used to take kids on days out, like about ten of them.
00:12:28Well, you wouldn't kind of do that now without about four other people.
00:12:33He wasn't really trained as a social worker or nothing.
00:12:36I left him with, like, five kids, you know, for the week.
00:12:40Pretty bleak. Yeah.
00:12:42You'd find yourself living in a house for, say, six months,
00:12:45looking after five unruly kids.
00:12:48You know, it was a sort of very strange Mary Poppins.
00:12:51Vera and Paul were hilarious.
00:12:53I mean, honestly, they were a double act, really.
00:12:56They were so funny together.
00:12:58My name's Brenda Gilhooly and I'm a comedian.
00:13:01And I was Gal Tuesday.
00:13:04He used to tell me lots of stories about being a social worker.
00:13:07Just, oh, my God!
00:13:09Paul had looked after this old lady in this tiny little room.
00:13:13He'd gone in there one morning and the old lady had died in the bed.
00:13:17We were way behind on the rent. We couldn't afford the rent.
00:13:20We were going to have to do a runner from this flat we were living in.
00:13:24He still had the key for this flat.
00:13:26And off we went, moved in there, the three of us.
00:13:28So, just to be clear, you basically moved in the house of a dead old lady?
00:13:32Yeah.
00:13:39When I first came to London, I went to a pub called The Black Cap,
00:13:43which was a drag pub.
00:13:45It's gone now.
00:13:47And they had lots and lots of acts on.
00:13:50I thought these were fabulous creatures.
00:13:52I thought, what a wonderful lifestyle.
00:13:54You get up and your mind's a record.
00:13:56And it's good money.
00:13:58I thought, yeah, I want a slice of this now, thank you.
00:14:01Then one day, this act appeared,
00:14:04who'd come on in a little pair of dark brown leather shorts,
00:14:09a white shirt, a little Peter Pan wig and a whip.
00:14:12And I remember saying, this man's crap, he won't get anywhere.
00:14:16I'm biting my tongue now, aren't I?
00:14:21Getting into drag, well, that's been part of popular entertainment
00:14:25in this country for a long time,
00:14:27and it survives in the Dame part of the pantomime.
00:14:31Drag is a broad church.
00:14:33There's people who like to do drag
00:14:35because they want to look extraordinary or fabulous.
00:14:38Some want to look beautiful and very feminine.
00:14:42But with make-up on, I looked worse.
00:14:45I looked about 90 years old.
00:14:47There was a time when I sort of said,
00:14:49maybe, Alan, you should do drag, maybe you're a beautiful woman.
00:14:53And then I did it and I was like, no, you're a munter.
00:14:56I find sometimes washing pain in the arse,
00:15:00let alone shaving me legs and putting the lipstick on.
00:15:04In this country, it's a real tradition of comedy.
00:15:07We want to laugh.
00:15:10This pub in Vauxhall, it's gone now.
00:15:13It's a Starbucks, but it used to be called the Elephant and Castle.
00:15:17They had a talent night and I was working behind the bar, as usual.
00:15:20I said, I could do better than that.
00:15:22So he said, well, go on, then.
00:15:24And I had a mate who was a fabulous tailor.
00:15:26And I said, mate, it's a real whore's outfit.
00:15:28And so the following week, up I got.
00:15:31And just did it.
00:15:33Shut up. You look natural when I'm sorry.
00:15:36Hit it, John, please.
00:15:38Savage was really just another mind act.
00:15:41But then when he decided to go live,
00:15:44the world changed.
00:15:47But you're from California.
00:15:50I suppose.
00:15:52That's the thing about America, you keep Americans there, don't you?
00:15:55You know what I mean?
00:15:57Once you'd started talking,
00:15:59there was a wit that you could use that you couldn't use
00:16:02when you were lip-syncing.
00:16:04It changed all of us and we'd be gone.
00:16:06You could identify with our personalities.
00:16:09She came on and it was almost like a challenge to the audience.
00:16:14And it was like being whipped into line
00:16:17by a lion tamer with 29 whips.
00:16:20Oh, you don't know my methods of how I deal with people.
00:16:23Ripping legs off and whacking them with the wet fucking ends,
00:16:26straight across and over sad fucking dogs.
00:16:28I'm Michael Cashman, Lord Cashman of Limehouse,
00:16:31but Savage would call me a whore and a whore.
00:16:34Savage would call me a whore and a harlot.
00:16:37He was aggressive. He was in your face.
00:16:40I mean, people used to pay to go into the clubs to be insulted by him.
00:16:45You're not heterosexual, are you?
00:16:47Really, well, there's the door. Fuck off.
00:16:49He loved it cos he could really be as crude as he liked
00:16:53and as rough as he liked and they'd all absolutely love it.
00:16:56I was working in social services,
00:16:58so it was a good way of getting the tension out of the day
00:17:01with what I'd seen I could do on stage.
00:17:03And cos Lily was supposed to be a working-class single mum,
00:17:06it was really ideal.
00:17:09I was poached by the Vauxhall Tavern.
00:17:12I think they offered me an extra tenner
00:17:14and being a bit of a whore, off I went.
00:17:17And that was it. I worked there for eight years.
00:17:20It was like our village hall.
00:17:22We had lock-ins and we had funerals there
00:17:25and parties there and Christmases there.
00:17:28It was just... It was. It was like our village hall.
00:17:32My name's John Camel and I'm known as Ebony.
00:17:35I used to be a drag artist on the stage at the Vauxhall Tavern
00:17:39many, many moons ago.
00:17:47I'm sitting in the dressing room of the Royal Vauxhall Tavern.
00:17:51It would be very hot and sweaty.
00:17:54I mean, we're talking about the pub.
00:17:56Absolutely rammed pack.
00:17:58And the heat in here would make it like a sauna.
00:18:00So you imagine seven drag artists in here, full make-up,
00:18:04trying to do costume changes and all the rest.
00:18:07We were sort of bumping into each other,
00:18:09trying to put our make-up on, and platforms and heels and wings.
00:18:12I'll be sitting on this thing.
00:18:14I'm supposed to wash a dish and that.
00:18:16And you think, how can we all fit all this in this small space?
00:18:20But we did.
00:18:22I'm just going to lay it out in a pack of seggies
00:18:25and I'm going to make a joint.
00:18:27But the atmosphere was electric.
00:18:30Take that fucking off now!
00:18:32He was like your drunken auntie at a wedding
00:18:35with a microphone in her hand, you know, getting that to sing.
00:18:38That's what he was like.
00:18:40I mean, I had aunties who, like, wiped the floor at me
00:18:43if there was a go on stage.
00:18:44They were hilarious, even the way they smoked and stood
00:18:47and took their rollers out was funny.
00:18:49There's a lot of me auntie Chrissie and Lily.
00:18:52She used to think she looked like Marlene Dietrich.
00:18:54She was a clippy on the buses and she was dead glam.
00:18:58She was witty and she had a great string of one-liners.
00:19:03She was a talker, Birkenhead.
00:19:06When he was Lily, you could tell that it was coming from a real place.
00:19:11I'm glad to be able to get away from me sister, Vera.
00:19:14Because, no, never mind going, have you seen her?
00:19:18I couldn't think of anything more terrifying
00:19:20than Lily's BDI landing on you if you were sitting in the audience.
00:19:25Can somebody's occupational therapist deal with this person down here, please?
00:19:29Lily had an evil tongue, didn't she?
00:19:31I mean, my dad did as well, but I think he'd get away with more,
00:19:34dressed, you know, yeah, as a character.
00:19:38And he's in a little green cardigan.
00:19:41He'd say things that he couldn't say as Paul.
00:19:45So Lily got away with murder.
00:19:48It was just Lily's house.
00:19:50You know, it wasn't an act, it wasn't a turn.
00:19:53Lily just owned the place.
00:19:56She could control a whole room with charisma,
00:20:00but also with that kind of aggression.
00:20:03Every Thursday, we would go to the Vauxhall Tavern,
00:20:06and Lily was scurrilous and filthy and unreal.
00:20:12It was just, it was a great night.
00:20:17See, I wasn't allowed to say a lot of Lily when I was little.
00:20:20I think because of the language,
00:20:22and I didn't understand a lot of the jokes anyway.
00:20:25I was about seven, I was having a birthday party,
00:20:28and my dad said,
00:20:29oh, I've got a great surprise for you.
00:20:31Swallows this fluid and then starts fire-eating
00:20:34in me mum's little flat.
00:20:36You know, and then there were sort of scorch marks on the ceiling.
00:20:39All the girls were screaming, cos it was like,
00:20:41oh, it's a fire, it's a fire!
00:20:43I was mortified, but he thought he was like,
00:20:46and he's doing all this, and he's, like, blowing fire.
00:20:49Like, I'm seven, I wanted, like, a clown.
00:20:55As I got older, I went to see Lily.
00:20:58It was a lot of taking, because it is,
00:21:01cos he was my dad at the end of the day,
00:21:03so he's got, like, six-inch heels on,
00:21:06with a massive blonde wig.
00:21:09Well, I used to go round to Vicky Mansion's before gigs,
00:21:12and it was like a Lily Savage wonderland.
00:21:14You'd go in and there'd be costumes everywhere,
00:21:16like on the table, on the floor,
00:21:18there'd be a wig.
00:21:20My dad used to just leave bin bags round.
00:21:22He was working nights and then sleeping days.
00:21:25I also remember going to the shop and getting tights for him.
00:21:29And the guy would say,
00:21:31are you coming in for your dad's tights?
00:21:33Well, I'd be like, yeah! Have you got tan and black?
00:21:36That was just...
00:21:38That was just normal.
00:21:40He used to leave me in the flat and go and work.
00:21:42I used to just love looking at his make-up.
00:21:45I remember walking round the flat with his thigh-high boots on,
00:21:49thinking I was all grown up. I was about 13.
00:21:52Paul used to carry Lily around in big plastic bags, you know.
00:21:56Those outrageous beehive wigs that he had
00:22:00were not carefully looked after.
00:22:02They were just dumped in a black bin bag,
00:22:05and his costume's the same.
00:22:08I don't know how long it took him to put on the make-up.
00:22:12I never saw him do it.
00:22:15But I wish I had, because I'd like to have seen that moment
00:22:19when Paul wasn't there any more and Lily had arrived.
00:22:23I wonder if my mother will be watching this?
00:22:26What time do they go to bed in Holloway?
00:22:33People say to me now, isn't it strange that Paul O'Grady is your dad
00:22:37and Lily Savage? I'm like, I don't know any different, so...
00:22:41Mum and Dad met in the early 70s.
00:22:43They were just friends.
00:22:45One thing led to another. And then poof, yeah!
00:22:48Sharon was born.
00:22:50I think he didn't know if he was gay or straight when I was born,
00:22:54so he liked to just keep everything separate.
00:22:57Went to London, he was having a career.
00:23:04I had been hearing all about Lily Savage.
00:23:07It was in my earliest days in London, in 1988 and 89.
00:23:11And I stood at the back of this packed pub
00:23:16and watched the relationship that Lily had already established
00:23:21with the audiences.
00:23:23They were passionate about her.
00:23:26It was astounding.
00:23:28Savage ruled that place.
00:23:33I was just in shock.
00:23:35I was so amazed that somebody that good could be just playing pubs.
00:23:39I just thought, well, it's just got to be because it's drag.
00:23:42It was considered the lowest form of show business.
00:23:45I remember, you know, we'd watch him and we would go,
00:23:48that is so funny.
00:23:50That person, that character, that humour
00:23:53will never, ever appear on television.
00:23:56How wrong we were.
00:24:05I always felt on the side of the underdog, you know, in the 80s.
00:24:10It was so clear who the underdogs were.
00:24:13Hello, London Gay Switchboard, can I help you?
00:24:16You think you've got AIDS? Why is that?
00:24:18The voluntary workers here have had as many as 400 calls a week
00:24:22from homosexuals desperate for advice and help.
00:24:25When HIV and AIDS came along, we were all so scared
00:24:30because no-one knew where it came from,
00:24:33no-one knew how you got it
00:24:35and no-one knew or seemed to care how you got rid of it.
00:24:39Oh, God, it was dreadful. I'll never forget it.
00:24:42I was either at hospitals or at funerals for about two to three years.
00:24:48I said to Savage, I can't do this any more, dear. I cannot.
00:24:52We were burying friends like this.
00:24:54If you had AIDS, you might as well just say, I'm dead.
00:24:58People were told that they could catch it
00:25:01from being next to a gay man or using a cup or a glass.
00:25:05So people would say, I want you and your mob out
00:25:09and there was no defence that you could take against it.
00:25:14It was used as another reason to push us underground.
00:25:19And who was there? Savage.
00:25:24We were going in to visit our friends in hospitals
00:25:27and they were all being treated like lepers, really.
00:25:30Paul used to go into the wards dressed as Lily
00:25:34and would go and sort of entertain the troops.
00:25:37We were doing shows on the wards and I'd be a hoovery nurse
00:25:41with three bottles, one full of red wine and one full of white.
00:25:44Like a trolley, golly. Red or white.
00:25:47He used to really cheer them all up.
00:25:50I can't tell you how many charities we both, well, all of us did for it
00:25:54and lost a lot of colleagues at that time.
00:25:57Savage was such a supporter. I think that changed our lives.
00:26:01It also brought us very much closer to who we were working to.
00:26:06Scared people who didn't understand why they were being singled out.
00:26:11And I think for our own sanity,
00:26:13other than entertaining an audience of people that were grieving,
00:26:17we had to do the act.
00:26:19That's when drag was a help and I think it drew the acts closer together.
00:26:24You know, we were needed. It was wonderful to be needed.
00:26:29There was a guy I knew from the tavern, seriously ill,
00:26:32and I said, is there anything you want?
00:26:34And he said, I'd kill for a fag. And I gave it to him.
00:26:37He said, I can't smoke at all. He said, here, little, finish it.
00:26:41And I could see, like, everyone's face.
00:26:44Is he going to put the ciggy in his mouth?
00:26:47So I took it off him quite casually and smoked it
00:26:50cos I didn't want to go, no, I'm all right, thanks, I won't bother,
00:26:53because he'd had quite enough of that before he came into hospital.
00:26:57There was such a need for compassion
00:27:00that wasn't being given by, you know, the authorities.
00:27:04And I think that kind of goes back to his gut reaction to the underdog
00:27:09and just wanting to be doing something supportive.
00:27:13The people he ranted and raved about a lot tended to be authority figures.
00:27:18He would always kick against the man, whenever he was.
00:27:22I think that's where he got a lot of his energy from, didn't it?
00:27:25When he was the greatest of energy, he had to have a them and us.
00:27:30The arrests began after hundreds of demonstrators
00:27:33resisted police efforts to move them on.
00:27:36From the middle 80s through to the 90s,
00:27:39there was this period when it was like a full-on battle
00:27:42between the government and a lot of people.
00:27:45So Lily Savage fitted perfectly well into that.
00:27:48I'm Jules Holland and I'm an expert.
00:27:51You know, that crowd, that sort of rough alternative crowd,
00:27:54which I was part of, they really loved Lily.
00:27:58Because they could see that there was something slightly of an outsider
00:28:04about Lily and slightly edgy.
00:28:09We all hated Maggie Thatcher with a vengeance.
00:28:13Because she was a vile Tory bitch.
00:28:17Children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values
00:28:21are being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay.
00:28:26All of those children are being cheated of a sound start in life.
00:28:31Yes, cheated.
00:28:36Clause 28 will prevent local authorities
00:28:38from actively promoting homosexuality.
00:28:40Campaigners say it's an attack on basic human rights.
00:28:44And we said, and Savage was there with us,
00:28:47if you want a fight, we'll give you a fucking fight.
00:28:52The reason we're here tonight, the three of us,
00:28:55is because of Clause 28, yes.
00:29:01We went to Kensington Gardens and there's Peter Pan's statue covered up.
00:29:05Just because he lives with a load of lost boys, right?
00:29:09A fairy.
00:29:12And his best friend's called Wendy.
00:29:17Sir Chris Bryant.
00:29:18Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
00:29:20I don't know whether the Deputy Prime Minister ever met Lily Savage
00:29:24or has ever spent a night out at the Royal Vauxhall Tavern.
00:29:27But Lily was performing at the height of the AIDS crisis in 1987
00:29:32when police officers raided the pub, arrested her amongst others.
00:29:36They were wearing rubber gloves
00:29:38because supposedly they're protecting themselves
00:29:40from contracting HIV from touching gay men.
00:29:44It's a true story.
00:29:45When we were there, there was all hell let loose.
00:29:47No-one knew what was going on.
00:29:49There was police in there chucking people into the street.
00:29:52I was in the dressing room and this copper burst in
00:29:55and I said, are you the stripper?
00:29:56Which you would do, you know, you'd think he was the male stripper.
00:30:00How dare they? They treated us like crap.
00:30:03Savage was having none of it
00:30:05because he was effing and blinding the policeman,
00:30:07he was calling them names, all sorts were going on
00:30:10and all I could hear was Savage on the badmouth of the coppers.
00:30:13I thought, any minute now, he's going to get dragged
00:30:16and chucked into the back of a police car.
00:30:18There must have been about 30 or 40 coppers all wearing rubber gloves.
00:30:22So I shouted from the top of the steps,
00:30:24lads, you've come to do the washing up, that's great.
00:30:27And pandemonium broke out.
00:30:30Her alter ego, Paul O'Grady,
00:30:33campaigned acerbically and hilariously
00:30:35against oppression of every kind.
00:30:37Isn't it time we in this country celebrated
00:30:40our naughty, hilarious drag queens and comics of every kind
00:30:45who inspire us to be a better and more generous nation?
00:30:48CHEERING
00:30:57I remember years ago, I was walking past the Empire Theatre
00:31:00in Liverpool, I was about 16, didn't have a job.
00:31:02My cousin said, why don't you go in there
00:31:04and ask them if there's anything you can do?
00:31:06And I said, like what? And she said, I don't know,
00:31:08tearing tickets or cleaning or something.
00:31:11And then I go back now and, like, you know, it's me on show
00:31:14and I'm there for the week at the Empire.
00:31:16Working class, Liverpoolian, gay, dragger.
00:31:20So were you very surprised when Lily transferred over?
00:31:24Oh, hell, yeah.
00:31:26He was very edgy, he was very 80s.
00:31:30But times change and he was on the verge
00:31:33of becoming very famous very quickly
00:31:35and not knowing how to deal with it
00:31:37because he'd never been famous before.
00:31:43Savage decided he needed a manager.
00:31:46Brendan volunteered and Brendan kind of ran with it.
00:31:51Brendan's name was Brendan Murphy
00:31:53but Savage always called him Murphy.
00:31:56Savage's rock. Always was, always will be.
00:32:00Brendan and I were very close, we were really good mates.
00:32:03We were rehearsing one of our shows
00:32:05and he decided to come down and watch it.
00:32:07Savage was on, giving it what for,
00:32:09kicking off about something or the other.
00:32:11And he said to me, who's that loudmouth
00:32:13Liverpoolian in your show? I said, Savage.
00:32:15He said, call Blimey, Savage by name, Savage by nature.
00:32:18I said, I know, dear, you're right.
00:32:20And Savage said, who's that?
00:32:22I said, Brendan, he's my flatmate.
00:32:24Oh, he's a bit tasty, Doris. And the rest is history.
00:32:27We used to call them Bonnie and Clyde
00:32:29because that's exactly what they were like.
00:32:31Savage had plenty to say and Brendan was very cool and calm.
00:32:36Murphy was the brains, so both of them working together,
00:32:40they knew what they were doing.
00:32:42And he started not just working gay bars
00:32:45but different venues, theatres and stuff like that.
00:32:48At that stage, he was there to sort of manage
00:32:52and push him to the next phase.
00:32:55Murphy was a loner and we both hated the same people
00:32:58and hated the same things,
00:33:00which is always a wonderful foundation for a loving relationship.
00:33:03It was so opposite.
00:33:05Brendan was very calm, Savage was very leery.
00:33:08I did ring the phone.
00:33:10I heard the fucking phone going, but it takes me time to answer it.
00:33:13I'm a quick-draw bastard, my girl.
00:33:15Open them curtains, maybe, and I'll open a vein.
00:33:18I'm telling you now.
00:33:19The funny thing about Brendan is just Brendan's silence
00:33:23and not being phased at all was like a total wind-up to Paul.
00:33:29You can't face a jazz band.
00:33:31I'm getting up. I can tell you I'm getting up.
00:33:34No, I'm getting up.
00:33:35And so I think Brendan and Paul used to have quite a few rounds.
00:33:38They'd never have lived together or anything, so...
00:33:41Someone would have died if they'd lived together, wouldn't they?
00:33:44They could have an argument about anything.
00:33:46I've seen Savage pick Murphy up by the scruff of his pants
00:33:50and the collar of his shirt
00:33:51and hurl him over the bar at the Vauxhall Tavern.
00:33:55I remember the first big fight they had when we were on tour in Australia
00:33:59ended with Sab saying,
00:34:00call the airport, I'm going home, I'm flying home.
00:34:03This was before we'd even opened.
00:34:04I thought, oh, no. Oh, no, the tour's over.
00:34:07The tour's over.
00:34:08And then half an hour later,
00:34:10they couldn't even remember what they'd fought about.
00:34:13They liked to fight in front of people, for display only.
00:34:17And he worked like a Trojan to make him the star he became.
00:34:25Anyway, good evening.
00:34:27No, liven up, please. Come along.
00:34:28Good evening, Lily, is the reply.
00:34:30Good evening.
00:34:31Good evening, Lily.
00:34:33There used to be this thing called the Perrier Award,
00:34:36which was the top comedy award of the year at the Edinburgh Fringe,
00:34:40and everybody was desperate to be nominated
00:34:43and then they were desperate to win.
00:34:46I've been with my fella nine years and I hate his guts.
00:34:49It's a very open marriage, our marriage.
00:34:51I'm hoping he'll fuck off one of us.
00:34:54I remember hearing that Lily was doing Edinburgh
00:34:59and I remember thinking, really?
00:35:02How is that going to work?
00:35:04Like, you know, cos in my head,
00:35:07there was such a difference between a pub act, a cabaret act,
00:35:12and doing an hour at Edinburgh.
00:35:14I didn't...
00:35:16I didn't know what Lily was going to do for an hour.
00:35:26His first show at Edinburgh Festival
00:35:28was in a tiny little room that had a low ceiling
00:35:32and he was doing the fire-eating act
00:35:34and he set off the fire alarms
00:35:36and the entire venue was evacuated out onto Princes Street
00:35:41and we're talking maybe seven shows.
00:35:43Seven shows of people.
00:35:45But, of course, it got front-page coverage
00:35:47and he sold out for the rest of the run.
00:35:49And I got nominated for the Perrier,
00:35:51which I didn't have a clue what it was.
00:35:53I didn't even know you got reviewed.
00:35:55You know, The Guardian was saying,
00:35:56oh, thinking man's drag queen.
00:35:58These scarves are nice, look.
00:35:59And that's where it started.
00:36:01Is it a savage clan, do you reckon?
00:36:03Well, I think most of them were, but I don't...
00:36:05Savage, yeah.
00:36:06One time I couldn't get on Richard and Judy to plug the tour
00:36:09and I've been on Richard and Judy 28 times now.
00:36:12OK.
00:36:14My name is Richard, I'm Richard Madeley.
00:36:16I'm basically a daytime TV presenter
00:36:18and that is where I came into contact with Lily.
00:36:22How you doing?
00:36:23Were you telling me about those shoes earlier?
00:36:25I bought them in a shop in New York
00:36:27which specialises in footwear for hookers.
00:36:30And the thing is, they're really good
00:36:32because they're reinforced with steel.
00:36:34So you can kick?
00:36:35Well, you can kick and you can also be on them for nine hours.
00:36:37They're nice on cobbles.
00:36:38Not that I do, you must understand.
00:36:40And I have to tell you that
00:36:41when we first used Lily Sallies on the programme,
00:36:43we got calls from our head office in Manchester saying,
00:36:46we can't have her on again.
00:36:48She's pushing it too far, she's over the top.
00:36:51Lovely.
00:36:52Is that all whisky?
00:36:53Yeah.
00:36:54Well, you are tall, Espen.
00:36:55I'm the little one today.
00:36:56We said, you're wrong.
00:36:57You couldn't be more wrong.
00:36:58And Lily became a mainstay this morning.
00:37:01You can't mix that with whisky.
00:37:02I was going to mix it with whisky.
00:37:04I was going to have it separate.
00:37:06Thank you very much.
00:37:08Lily Savage knew exactly how far she could go.
00:37:10Very nice, though.
00:37:11Exactly how far to push the envelope.
00:37:13And, OK, finish up in Spain.
00:37:15The thing is, back then,
00:37:17you didn't really see that many spoof working-class women
00:37:20at that time on television at all.
00:37:22But you didn't really see many real working-class women.
00:37:25And the thing about Lily was,
00:37:27Lily was the perfect fusion of the two.
00:37:29Judy Finnegan, you've got me rocked.
00:37:31Nice and drunk.
00:37:32All right, a caricature, but still a representation
00:37:34of a working-class northern reality,
00:37:36and particularly Liverpudlian scouse reality.
00:37:39I always thought it was much easier to think of Lily as a woman
00:37:44because of the very female way that Lily talked.
00:37:49Have you got keys to his flat?
00:37:51I'll tell you a really good one.
00:37:53Go in and sew prawns in the hem of his curtain.
00:37:55It's true.
00:37:56He couldn't have done that if he'd just, you know, come on as Paul.
00:38:00Deal with him. I'm telling you now, don't let him walk all over you.
00:38:03Deal with him. Don't have no messing.
00:38:05Lily could communicate with people in a very...
00:38:08It was like talking to someone on the top of the bus,
00:38:10or at the bus stop. It was very down-to-earth.
00:38:13It's Lily Seven!
00:38:15Eventually, I ended up on kids' telly,
00:38:17lying on the bed of the big breakfast,
00:38:19dressed as a hooker at half seven in the morning.
00:38:23And nobody flinched.
00:38:24Shut up! Shut up!
00:38:26Of all people...
00:38:28..why on earth have they asked someone to be on breakfast telly
00:38:32that don't go to bed at night until four in the morning?
00:38:35Oh! Go back, please. It's too early. Get lost.
00:38:38Lily, have you got something there at all?
00:38:40I'm going to belt him in a minute.
00:38:42It was live.
00:38:44It was ad-lib.
00:38:46There was no script.
00:38:48This was so surreal.
00:38:49There was my mate on telly, in bed with Cher.
00:38:56No.
00:38:57That ain't real.
00:38:59Crazy.
00:39:01Julian. Julian.
00:39:04Oh, are we on? We're on.
00:39:06I couldn't think of anything better than a drag queen on breakfast telly.
00:39:10How fantastic.
00:39:11You're never happy unless you're working. I've noticed this with you.
00:39:14Well, it's very fulfilling, isn't it,
00:39:16going out and being jolly and making people laugh?
00:39:19Well, yeah, if you're in the mood. What's your motivation, then?
00:39:22The cash. The money. That's it, it's cash.
00:39:24Part of the genius of Lily and of Paul,
00:39:27which is very difficult to do, is to be real all the time.
00:39:30And it comes across as, you know, genuine.
00:39:33Because a lot of men think that all it takes to turn a woman on
00:39:36is the smell of vomit.
00:39:37No, tell me about it.
00:39:39Tell me about it. There's more to it than that.
00:39:41A keybab down the back of me cardi on the night bus
00:39:43is going to get my engine running, I tell you.
00:39:45It does happen, Julian, doesn't it?
00:39:47Some people, actors who are known for the character that they inhabit,
00:39:52sometimes they can come to resent the character
00:39:54because they feel it's restricting them.
00:39:56It's a bit sad, really, you know,
00:39:58tired old queen dressing up, wearing make-up.
00:40:01No, it's not, because I can't go out without lippy, you know.
00:40:04I never felt that about Lily and Paul.
00:40:06That's what happened later on in his career.
00:40:08He was happy as Lily Savage.
00:40:13So I first met him as Lily.
00:40:16Not Paul.
00:40:18It was in Edinburgh,
00:40:20and we were both doing publicity for our shows,
00:40:23and I arrived quite early in the morning, nine o'clock, I think it was,
00:40:27to find Paul already there, dressed as Lily, with a fag on.
00:40:32Hello, Ian!
00:40:34And we were friends thereafter.
00:40:39Let's see if we can find it.
00:40:42I'd invited Paul to be my date
00:40:45for the opening of my film Richard III,
00:40:48and he turned up full drag make-up,
00:40:52lovely blonde wig,
00:40:54and when we sat down in the dark in the cinema
00:40:57and he was talking away,
00:40:59well, was it Paul talking or was it Lily?
00:41:02I couldn't tell the difference.
00:41:06Please welcome Lily Savage!
00:41:08CHEERING
00:41:11APPLAUSE
00:41:16What was extraordinary for all of us watching
00:41:19was the rise of Lily onto television and beyond.
00:41:23That was what was wonderful.
00:41:25Nice to have you popping in. Yes, pleasure.
00:41:27Cos you're a busy kid.
00:41:29I've done Blanksy Blank, I've just one more night to do on the tour,
00:41:32and then I'm finished. I've done a video,
00:41:34I've written this book and I'm doing Annie.
00:41:37What happened with Savage was that just the money was coming in
00:41:41and he could afford Martin,
00:41:43and Martin is a genius costumier.
00:41:46The money wasn't a problem, so the sky was the limit.
00:41:49And, oh, my goodness, those costumes.
00:41:52Tight, they're as tight as a crab's arse on the BBC, I'm telling you.
00:41:56Well, you see, you think,
00:41:58oh, BBC, all these costume epics, you know what I mean?
00:42:00I'm going to get here, I'm going to be dressed to death.
00:42:02I got here, got tucked to wardrobe,
00:42:04and the wardrobe mistress said to me, she said,
00:42:06we're very thrifty here, you know,
00:42:08I mean, we don't waste licenced payers' money.
00:42:10She said, we recycle, there's your gowns.
00:42:13They were all old Gloria Ronnieford, Nesta Rance and stuff.
00:42:18I can never get away from dressing up, ever.
00:42:23And I'm of the opinion that if you go,
00:42:25I don't like to go on a stage in a T-shirt and jeans.
00:42:28That, to me, is not showbiz.
00:42:31Oh, there's a nice one, look at that.
00:42:33Paul could wear a bin bag,
00:42:35and he would have just still been funny.
00:42:37The Lily Savage persona was mostly Paul.
00:42:40The costumes came in just to sort of fill the gaps, really.
00:42:43He was really into what he wore,
00:42:45and it was really important to him.
00:42:47I'm Martin Owen Taylor, and for the most of a decade,
00:42:50I was the main costume designer for Lily Savage.
00:42:53The words that stick in my mind are,
00:42:55it needs to be really tarty, it needs to look cheap and tacky,
00:42:58you know, or lairy, it needs to look really lairy.
00:43:00That's like a sort of, like, Tati Barmaid look.
00:43:03Too tight. Look how short it is.
00:43:05I mean, you look like a right tart in this.
00:43:08What Dolly Parton used to say,
00:43:10it costs a lot of money to look this cheap,
00:43:12and that was the same for Savage as well,
00:43:14and I think Savage really took that mantra and ran with it, you know.
00:43:17It's just the dream job, it's like having your own Barbie
00:43:20that you can dress up.
00:43:22I first saw him on Clive James' show,
00:43:25and I'd never, ever seen anyone like him.
00:43:30Or her.
00:43:32I was just laughing my head off.
00:43:35The only time I ever felt sorry for the Queen
00:43:37was when Maggie got the boot, and the Queen was sat on the couch,
00:43:40she was relaxing, she was watching Home and Away,
00:43:42and she had ski pants on and men's socks.
00:43:47And she took her teeth out and shoved them down the sides of the couch.
00:43:50And she was sat there with her feet up on the poofy,
00:43:52and Princess Margaret's at the window,
00:43:54and she's got the net back, sucking on her ciggy.
00:44:00You'll never guess who's coming down the street.
00:44:04And the Queen said, if she knocks on that door, don't answer it.
00:44:07Just get away. Next thing, there's a bang at the door, and the Queen,
00:44:09Margaret, get away from that window, get away, get away,
00:44:11turn that telly down, get away, get in the kitchen, quick.
00:44:13Who opened the front door? The Queen Mother.
00:44:15Why? She thought it was catalogue stuff, so she opens it, lets her in.
00:44:19And then I was at Middlesex University,
00:44:22and I did a stand-up comedy module.
00:44:25My thesis was blonde comedians,
00:44:28and I watched on VHS Lily live at the Garrick,
00:44:33and that was my text.
00:44:37You're not clapping.
00:44:39So I've analysed it.
00:44:41This is how much she had the effect on me.
00:44:44It was just fantastic storytelling.
00:44:47Do you know what? Well, to show you this, I went to Heathrow yesterday,
00:44:50and I'm standing there, and I'm having a ciggy,
00:44:52and I know there's signs everywhere saying no smoking,
00:44:54but I thought they put them up for a laugh, so I took no notice.
00:44:58And this little shite, this little Hitler,
00:45:00cleaning superintendents, went,
00:45:02disgusting!
00:45:04And I go over to him, and he dug me in the back.
00:45:07Can you read? I said, yes, I can, that's why I'm not washing floors in Heathrow.
00:45:10Now, fuck off!
00:45:14What Lily was, was counterculture.
00:45:17She wasn't making an argument about gender,
00:45:21about the difference between men and women.
00:45:23What Lily took on were mainstream targets.
00:45:26Politicians, officialdom.
00:45:28It wasn't specifically to do with the fact
00:45:31that Lily was an enlarged version of a woman.
00:45:33It was just that Lily was pure stroppiness in 3D.
00:45:37The rebel in him, the idea of trying to control Paul,
00:45:40it was impossible, and when his career took off,
00:45:43his TV career took off, I mean,
00:45:45I think there was an element of, you take me or leave me.
00:45:48You know, I'd bung the wig on and go, there she is.
00:45:50It's a suit of armour, that's what I used to say.
00:45:52You can hide behind it. Yeah.
00:45:54And also you can say all manner of stuff
00:45:56that you can't say as yourself.
00:45:58I can't remember Paul ever saying how much he loved something.
00:46:02And when we did panto together,
00:46:04he would come into my dressing room every day,
00:46:06several times, I'm fucking sick of this,
00:46:08this is ridiculous, I can't do this,
00:46:10I'm not in tomorrow.
00:46:12But he really loved panto.
00:46:14It was that way of letting off steam.
00:46:16The opposition was moaning, absolutely.
00:46:19But you have to read between the lines,
00:46:21what it really meant was, he's having a great time.
00:46:25It's the ghost of Lily Savage
00:46:28hammering some BBC executive's head on the floor, I think.
00:46:33I hope, I hope, in a way, being miserable made Paul happy,
00:46:38because he was so good at it.
00:46:40It's certainly what he did the most.
00:46:43There was very little small talk.
00:46:45And something was grinding his gears.
00:46:47And off he'd go.
00:46:49I think every black cab driver in London has a story
00:46:53about Paul O'Grady.
00:46:55He was stuck in a traffic jam.
00:46:57Just got out, slammed the door,
00:47:00walked two cars up and got into another black cab,
00:47:04which was still in the traffic jam,
00:47:06but it was a bit of a victory for him,
00:47:08because at least he was two cars ahead.
00:47:10And then I heard someone, did he get out and have a row with someone
00:47:13and hit them over the head with a baguette?
00:47:16Always a drama with him, always.
00:47:22So, Lily, I just want to check these quotes.
00:47:24OK.
00:47:25I hate professional Liverpudlians.
00:47:27Did I say that?
00:47:29Well, that's what the Daily Mirror says.
00:47:31Well, you can't believe tabloid journalism,
00:47:33do you know what they're like?
00:47:34All the press really has a lot to answer for,
00:47:36with millions of readers and infecting them with bias.
00:47:40Do you know what I mean? He was still a puff and a frock.
00:47:43I do like privacy, yeah.
00:47:45I don't want to share my life,
00:47:47but when I started doing a lot of television,
00:47:49my daughter was hounded by the tabloids.
00:47:52She was running one, two guys running after her.
00:47:54She thought the obvious, you know, she was about to be attacked.
00:47:57They were from a tabloid newspaper.
00:48:00I think the press found out he had a daughter,
00:48:02cos he'd never mentioned it, and he was at Lily fame then, I think.
00:48:06So he was on holiday and it had all come out.
00:48:11You know, they always used to say,
00:48:13Paul O'Grady's secret daughter,
00:48:15which often they use Lily Savage's secret daughter,
00:48:18which, of course, it isn't.
00:48:20I never made a secret of it from day one.
00:48:22I always said, you know, I was a single father, I had a daughter.
00:48:27I could never see a big issue in it, you see, but other people can.
00:48:31It was just, like, no-one's business.
00:48:41The thing about Paul was he was exactly the same,
00:48:46whether you were having a cup of tea with him
00:48:49or if he was actually fronting a show.
00:48:51But before I knew Paul well, I'd take everything on face value.
00:48:56He went on tour and he said,
00:48:58would you like to be in my support act?
00:49:01We were doing 2,000-seaters and everywhere was sold out.
00:49:05I remember going into a dressing room, I went,
00:49:08I went, hi, Paul. He said, oh, hi. He said, I'm not going on.
00:49:12And I went, oh, my God.
00:49:14And I just completely took it completely at face value.
00:49:17I went, oh, my God.
00:49:18And you could hear the audience coming in on the tannoy in the dressing room.
00:49:21And I went, I can't believe it.
00:49:23And I just felt, like, really sweaty and weird at the thought of it.
00:49:26We could hear them coming in. It was sold out.
00:49:29And then the wig came off and beads came off.
00:49:32I thought, oh, I can't believe this is happening.
00:49:35I said, Paul, what are we going to do?
00:49:38I said, what about the audience?
00:49:40He went, fuck them!
00:49:42I said, oh, my God, I can't believe this is happening.
00:49:46And then five minutes later, all right, we'll go on.
00:49:53How do we explain that this Liverpool slag,
00:49:56who turns tricks, as you say,
00:49:58is suddenly on mainstream television?
00:50:00I mean, blankety-blank on a Terry Wogan movie?
00:50:03God knows.
00:50:04Well, welcome to Blankety-Blank.
00:50:06And what a stunning show we've got for you tonight, I tell you.
00:50:09Look at this line-up.
00:50:10I think that is the great thing about us Brits,
00:50:13that we can have a drag queen come on to a panel show
00:50:17and no-one really questions it.
00:50:19They just go with it, don't they?
00:50:21And the highest score will go on to play for one of our fabulous prizes.
00:50:25Ooh!
00:50:29Well, Blankety-Blank is a nightmare
00:50:31because we do at least maybe two shows a day
00:50:34and you'd get the audiences in for the earlier session
00:50:37and then they'd come in for the later ones
00:50:40and they'd all have trains to catch.
00:50:42But he would have spent so long in between takes telling jokes...
00:50:49..you know, people would be getting up and leaving
00:50:51cos they had to go and get their trains,
00:50:53or I'd just be sat there just howling with laughter
00:50:56and just not able to go home.
00:50:58But he just couldn't stop himself.
00:51:00I've got it together.
00:51:02I'm like the warden of an asylum here.
00:51:04Asylum. Asylum.
00:51:07What would you like me to say?
00:51:09He came alive when he was in front of an audience.
00:51:14That was his preferred place, really.
00:51:16It needn't be a big audience, it could just be a couple of people.
00:51:20What have I got to say?
00:51:21Is this for going out in people's houses?
00:51:24You see the true Lily when you look on YouTube,
00:51:27there are outtakes from when she was hosting Blankety Black.
00:51:30And she is being fully vile and complaining about everything.
00:51:36Why do I have to say this, mate?
00:51:38If you get bloody Gloria running for it, then she's good at this.
00:51:41You know, swearing at directors and cameramen, everything.
00:51:45And it's truly Lily.
00:51:47It is very funny and the audience are drawing it.
00:51:50I've been to Cali once on a day trip.
00:51:52You sod off!
00:51:53That version of Lily wouldn't have presented Blankety Black
00:51:56That version of Lily would have just gone, what the fuck is this?
00:51:59Because you hear that rotten tune ten times.
00:52:01Blankety Black! Blankety Black!
00:52:03Blankety Black!
00:52:04Blankety Black!
00:52:05Blankety Black!
00:52:06Smash my head on the sink to try and stop it.
00:52:10I do get bored easily.
00:52:12I'll flip from one thing to another.
00:52:14And I can move on and do something else.
00:52:17I remember years ago, I said, when I'm 40, I'm packing this up.
00:52:21I knew I didn't.
00:52:23He talked about stopping doing Lily for years.
00:52:26That was just part of his personality.
00:52:28Sometimes you need to change.
00:52:30And he was so fed up of painting the same face day in, day out.
00:52:34Instead, I'm putting the costume on, the tights, the girdles,
00:52:37you know, doing all that.
00:52:39Paul would say, I'm sick of this.
00:52:41He would say that about everything, I'm sick of this.
00:52:43Not doing that again.
00:52:45So what happens if you say that all the time?
00:52:47When it's true, comes as a surprise.
00:52:50When it's true, comes as a surprise.
00:52:56Good evening and welcome to the Royal Variety Performance 2001.
00:53:00He was always wanting to do You Gotta Get A Gimmick.
00:53:03It goes right back to when he saw Gypsy as a kid.
00:53:07Edit, fellas. Take it away.
00:53:11You have to...
00:53:13This is the number, really, that kick-started me
00:53:16into a desire to go into showbiz.
00:53:19You gotta get a gimmick.
00:53:21You gotta get a gimmick
00:53:23If you wanna get a hand
00:53:25But at the age of 11, I didn't have a clue what I was going to do.
00:53:29No, cos I didn't have a gimmick then.
00:53:31If you wanna make it
00:53:33Twinkle while you shake it
00:53:35Bawdy
00:53:36If you wanna grind it
00:53:37Wait till you refine it
00:53:39Rash
00:53:40If you wanna bump it
00:53:41Bump it with a trumpet
00:53:44Wonderful.
00:53:46From the age of five, I could recite the whole of Gypsy.
00:53:49And that's because of him.
00:53:51He taught me to twizzle things.
00:53:55And what five-year-old can do that, really?
00:54:02I had a ball.
00:54:04It was fabulous.
00:54:06But that was it.
00:54:10I just said to my manager, I'm not doing this any more.
00:54:12I had loads of work in as Lily,
00:54:14so it was a brave step for me, really,
00:54:16cos I'd never been myself on television.
00:54:18And I just thought, I've gotta change.
00:54:20I've gotta have a change.
00:54:22And I'm not one of these people who'd say,
00:54:24oh, well, I've had a great time, I'll go back to my council flat.
00:54:27Once you've been used to the high life, you can't go back.
00:54:31MUSIC FADES
00:54:42Probably when Paul was starting out,
00:54:44the idea of being just a funny gay guy from Liverpool
00:54:48seemed impossible.
00:54:51So I think Lily was kind of Paul's way onto a stage.
00:55:00And finding his own voice.
00:55:02And it was only when you get to meet Paul and get to know Paul,
00:55:06you realise, oh, that's Paul in a wig.
00:55:09That's... That's what that is.
00:55:14I remember the interview you did with Paul.
00:55:16It was in the back end of the 90s, wasn't it, for the first time as Paul?
00:55:19I'm delighted to say we're joined now by the man behind the woman,
00:55:22it's Paul O'Grady. Paul O'Grady, our great programme friend.
00:55:25I remember he was quite nervous about it as well, coming on as himself.
00:55:28I've always interviewed you as Lily.
00:55:30Well, this is it, and I'm always sort of sat here,
00:55:32I feel like I should start screaming now or something.
00:55:34Do you remember a few phone calls saying, look, it's going to be OK?
00:55:36Cos he was worried, I think.
00:55:37I'd sort of said, oh, well, I might pack it up, as you do.
00:55:39You know what I mean? I pack up every day.
00:55:41That's it, I've had it, I'm not doing it.
00:55:43And there was this whole lecture about how dare this Paul O'Grady thing
00:55:46to kill off Lily Savage.
00:55:47Don't you realise she's this...
00:55:49I thought, hang on a minute, this is me you're talking about?
00:55:52As a bloke, you're very, very funny. It's been hilarious.
00:55:54Just as funny as it is when you come in as Lily.
00:55:56Would you consider doing stand-up or doing something yourself?
00:55:58No, I'm not interested. You don't want to do that?
00:56:00No, I like a bit of... No, because it's also my opinion, then.
00:56:03And as Lily, you can say the most outrageous things and get away with it.
00:56:06But, I mean, if I was to say stuff like that, I'd be bottled off.
00:56:09I think there must have been a kind of a pivotal moment
00:56:12when Paul understood that he could do it himself.
00:56:15You know, he could be as scurrilous and filthy and unreal
00:56:20as Lily ever was,
00:56:22and credible for him to kind of be released from Lily.
00:56:27I hate dressing up.
00:56:29Because, one, it's so uncomfortable.
00:56:31I just don't like it at all.
00:56:34I don't get repulsed by it when I look in the mirror.
00:56:36It doesn't freak me out. But it does nothing for me that way.
00:56:39It's a costume.
00:56:41I think he just got fed up, didn't he?
00:56:43And he had varicose veins as well.
00:56:46Are you giving away his feminine secrets?
00:56:49Well, that's what I'm thinking.
00:56:51But that's why he didn't like wearing the big heels anymore as well,
00:56:54which didn't help the varicose veins.
00:56:56And Lily Savage in Birkenstocks just wouldn't have worked.
00:56:59People were prepared to give Paul and Grady a break
00:57:02because they love Lily Savage, and they wanted to see what,
00:57:05if you like, Lily's brother looked like, you know, part of the family.
00:57:08Is the act and the clothes and the make-up, are you hiding behind that?
00:57:12Not now, I'm not, no. I was at the beginning, but I'm not now.
00:57:17We went for coffee one day.
00:57:19He wanted to know how I felt about him giving up Lily.
00:57:23And I said, you're a fool. He said, well, I'll just be me.
00:57:26I said, Paul, it's your choice, but if you want my advice,
00:57:29which you've asked for, I'd say no.
00:57:31And I was completely wrong, because he knew the time was right.
00:57:34He wasn't daft.
00:57:38Hello there, my name's Lily Savage.
00:57:40Oh, God, it's not Lily Savage, it's Paul O'Grady.
00:57:42Shit!
00:57:43I think, to be totally cynical about it, Lily had served her purpose.
00:57:48She'd established Paul as a mainstream character
00:57:51in British television and had propelled and accelerated Paul
00:57:56into that world in his own right.
00:57:58Well, now you know. Feast your eyes at the man under the wig.
00:58:02Don't expect nothing classic, don't expect no Michael Palin,
00:58:05don't expect no Judith Chalmers, no Anthea,
00:58:07none of that business, cos you're not going to get it.
00:58:10Oh, look at this.
00:58:12This is the only chairman suite in the world.
00:58:16The oldest is my room. Yes, yes.
00:58:20So you have this, like, it's a nightmare.
00:58:23It's Alice in Wonderland time.
00:58:25I go up here, and then I go in here, and then I come round again.
00:58:29I'm knackered, so I've only been up an hour.
00:58:31I think doing the travel shows was quite a big step,
00:58:35because Paul was never a very good traveller,
00:58:38doesn't like waiting in queues, very picky eater.
00:58:41That in itself was a little bit of a worry.
00:58:43Where's me bloody socks?!
00:58:45He did, I must have done, 20 minutes,
00:58:47and then he found out that his hotel suite was too big,
00:58:50and he couldn't find the toilet in the night.
00:58:53I mean, you know, come on, Paul, really?
00:58:56I've spent an hour trying to find the toilet.
00:58:59It's a piss in the sink in the end.
00:59:01I had to...
00:59:02It was like almost kind of Lily on zipped and outstepped Paul.
00:59:10Good evening.
00:59:16Please.
00:59:17He's just as funny off as he is on,
00:59:19and you realise that actually, you know,
00:59:21the man who gives Lily all those amazing jokes and lines to say
00:59:25is clearly Paul O'Gravy.
00:59:27And it's all here tonight on my own show, The Fools.
00:59:30The Fools!
00:59:32Broadcasting live to the nation, and they can't...
00:59:34I wish she'd get rid of this cup, it makes me look gay.
00:59:37Please.
00:59:42Please.
00:59:44I want a mug, a big builder's mug, an Abbey's mug,
00:59:47with a crack, stinking of nicotine.
00:59:51You can hear Paul O'Gravy talking, and you can hear Lily Savage.
00:59:54If you don't listen carefully, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
00:59:57Do you know what got my back up?
00:59:59The hoo-hoo!
01:00:00Those Tories whooping and hollering when they heard about the cuts.
01:00:03Did you see them?
01:00:04Lily was the thing that made him laugh
01:00:06that would make other people laugh.
01:00:08But Paul, in the end, could do more things than Lily.
01:00:12Oh, yay!
01:00:13I'm just going to scrap the pension, yay!
01:00:16No more wheelchairs, yay!
01:00:19Bastards.
01:00:23Lily Savage was the mouthpiece that Paul wanted.
01:00:27The minute Lily was no more, Paul still said all those things.
01:00:34We should fight for the rights of the elderly,
01:00:37of the poor...
01:00:40..of the sick...
01:00:43..and of the little children's.
01:00:47Vive la Merkelhead, vive la Revolucion!
01:00:59I know, I'm like you, I can't be bothered, it's too cold.
01:01:03Paul could rant, just like Lily.
01:01:06Paul could be a huge grouch, just like Lily.
01:01:10But Paul, I suppose, had a sweetness that Lily never had.
01:01:14Maybe he had to be Lily first and then to come out as...
01:01:18..then be Paul.
01:01:32Oh, what more do you want?
01:01:34What more do you want?
01:01:37Oh, he's just having a sniff, like I used to in the old days.
01:01:44Don't touch that, get your hands off it.
01:01:48I've always wanted to meet you.
01:01:50Oh, get out of it, don't make me...
01:01:52I'm going to hide under the desk in a minute.
01:02:00I will be back. You promise? Yes, maybe we'll do a show.
01:02:03You're on, you're definitely on.
01:02:05He was the funniest person, but he also had that...
01:02:09..caring and sensitivity that goes alongside it.
01:02:13And that's Paul and that's what the audience saw
01:02:15and that's what the audience wanted.
01:02:17This is my latest edition, this is sausage.
01:02:19This is sausage. Sausage came from Romania.
01:02:25I've never known anyone who has such a rapport with animals.
01:02:29You adore them, don't you? I do.
01:02:31I've always liked animals and I've always got on with them.
01:02:34Aren't they wonderful? This is heaven.
01:02:37See, when they show you the bum, that means they like you
01:02:40and what you have to do is give it a little tickle.
01:02:43I wasn't going to tickle yours, honestly, I promise.
01:02:46Come on, let's see if you can't do a little wee for your mammy
01:02:49before we go to bed.
01:02:50And what do you call yourself? I call myself a drag queen.
01:02:53Somebody says to me, what are you?
01:02:55A good old-fashioned drag queen, proud of it.
01:02:57Lily was and is still loved to this day,
01:03:01but I think Paul was loved even more, quite rightly.
01:03:06There we go.
01:03:08HE SINGS
01:03:27MUSIC PLAYS
01:03:57MUSIC FADES