Jonathan Rogers, der Game Director von Path of Exile 2, hat uns auf der gamescom 2024 besucht, um mit Maurice Weber die Demo zu spielen. Dabei zeigt er erstmal einen neuen Boss.
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Das ist die Videoversion unseres GameStar Podcasts.
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Was ist GameStar Talk?
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00:00Liebe Leute, da sind wir wieder mit dem nächsten ARPG und diesmal Path of Exile 2.
00:18Wir haben hier Jonathan Rogers, Game Director, who has brought us Path of Exile 2 in a playable demo.
00:24Nice to see you.
00:25Nice to see you too.
00:26And I was really keen to get you to actually play this demo because I'm very curious to hear your opinion.
00:31Let's see.
00:32How things go.
00:33So what have you brought us today?
00:34So basically I really wanted to show everyone the Mercenary.
00:37So this is a class that we've announced but it's never been playable outside our studio before.
00:41And I think the reason why I find it so interesting is because this is the class that really introduced us to the idea of having WASD controls in the game.
00:48And ever since we tried that it's been something that really transformed a lot of how we're making skills and how we're developing the game.
00:54And really it's kind of the most major change that's happened since last year when we were at Gamescom.
00:58So yeah, I'm very curious to hear what you think about it.
01:01It's very different from how most action RPGs play.
01:03Yes.
01:04So let's see what you think.
01:06Let's see how it goes.
01:07So we have the Mercenary.
01:08Our main thing is that we have different ammunition types and we can just shoot this guy with this ammunition type and we can just change between them.
01:17We have incendiary ammo and we have...
01:21Like an assault rifle basically.
01:24How historically accurate is this?
01:26Maybe not so historically accurate.
01:28That doesn't look right.
01:30But the thing is that when we were thinking about how do we design a new class that's going to use crossbows,
01:35I was thinking about what actually makes a bow and a crossbow different.
01:38And the difference really is that a crossbow you load first as long as you want beforehand and then you can fire it later.
01:45And so it's something that I thought we wanted to try and bring.
01:48And as soon as we did that, we were like, okay, this feels really cool like a shooter.
01:51Let's just make Lena Taller's tropes.
01:53But the other thing we really want to make sure of is that all of our classes have interesting combo gameplay.
01:57So maybe what you can do here is if you use the shotgun with the ice to freeze monsters,
02:04and then after that you switch to the one that fires regular rounds,
02:08then you can freeze the monster and then explode the ice off after them.
02:11All right.
02:12Yeah, yeah.
02:13So freeze and then switch.
02:14Yeah, there you go.
02:15Wow, nice.
02:16Yeah, yeah.
02:17So effectively the more tie-league groups, if you click this you're going to get ambushed by the way.
02:20So just maybe start.
02:21Maybe I'll let you talk first.
02:23Yeah, for sure.
02:24So yeah, these kind of interactions I think are pretty interesting and we really try to imbue them through.
02:28So yeah, go for it.
02:29Let's do this.
02:30Yeah, yeah.
02:31All right.
02:32Use grenades here because you'll have a lot of monsters coming.
02:34Yes.
02:35Maybe not too many, but oh yeah.
02:36Actually the flame shotgun is very good against those tree monsters being that they're made of wood.
02:40But while during this ambush you can't exit this part of the area.
02:43All right.
02:45A league mechanic from POE 1 actually called Ritual.
02:47But we've re-done it for POE 2.
02:49Yeah, you mentioned when we talked before that you actually want to bring all the league mechanics back eventually.
02:54Maybe not every single one, but certainly many of them.
02:57Okay.
02:58Yeah, yeah.
02:59So over time we're going to be introducing more and more of these and I think that should serve POE 2 pretty well as well.
03:03But they can't just go in in their current form.
03:05Oh, you're running out of mana.
03:06Oh, yeah.
03:07They can't just go in in their current form.
03:10They need a lot of extra work to be able to make them POE 2 quality.
03:15So there's going to be a lot there too.
03:17So yeah, that ambush is done.
03:18All right.
03:19Keep on going.
03:20Nice.
03:22So yeah, as I said, this is the mercenary.
03:24But the other thing as well is that every class really benefits from WASD.
03:29When we first created the mercenary we were kind of thinking, oh yeah, no, maybe WASD will be great only for ranged classes.
03:38Maybe it'll be good on the ranger and the mercenary and things like that.
03:42But maybe it won't be good on melee.
03:43But I actually think on melee it works as well.
03:44So if you like.
03:45Oh, actually here.
03:46Use armor break.
03:47So the assault rifle on this guy.
03:49And then once the armor is broken, use the sniper rifle on T.
03:52Snipe him.
03:53Oh, missed.
03:54There you go.
03:55Nice.
03:56So then it stuns the guy and does a lot of damage.
03:57So yeah, you can use that to take him out.
03:59All right.
04:00So I noticed that when I played the necromancer that you're really leaning into ability combos this time.
04:05Oh, yes.
04:06Absolutely.
04:07And in that case it was the shadow blight, I think, which then raises blighted minions if you infect enemies.
04:14And that was really cool.
04:15Right.
04:16So, yeah.
04:17I mean, it's basically every single skill.
04:18Like we see the design of Path of Exile very similar to like Magic the Gathering or something like this.
04:22Nice.
04:23Where you have lots of keywords and there's interesting combinations between things.
04:26And even between classes as well.
04:27So armor break here is a mechanic that many classes have.
04:32And many different skills will have different things that activate if you use them on a monster with armor break.
04:38All right.
04:39It actually works both across classes but also with the skill system as well.
04:43I just want to go into the skill system a little bit if I can.
04:45Let's do this.
04:46So basically if you press I to open the inventory.
04:48So skills in Path of Exile are items.
04:51But this system was very complicated in PoE 1 and we really wanted to improve it.
04:55You have the uncut gems right now, right?
04:57Yeah.
04:58So basically you'll find this uncut gem at the top here if you right click on this.
05:00This skill tree here should look very familiar if you've played Diablo 2.
05:04It's a lot easier to understand than what we sort of did before.
05:08But there's actually no less power than what you had.
05:10So here you can upgrade any of these skills at the top or you can click a new one.
05:13It might be good to upgrade your shotgun for example.
05:15The armor piercing.
05:16Sorry.
05:17Fragmentation rounds.
05:18Since you're using it so much.
05:19Just click upgrade.
05:20And then it opens the skill screen.
05:21And the thing is these skills are still items.
05:23It's just that if you're a new player you don't even really have to know that.
05:26You can just treat it like any other action RPG.
05:28But of course if you're an advanced player you know that you can trade these items.
05:32You can level them up and so on.
05:37But also there's the support gems to modify them further.
05:41Yeah.
05:42We have here like we have pin.
05:43Sure, sure.
05:44We have brutality and I think we had some.
05:47If you right click in here and show the grenade option.
05:50I'll just show you something here.
05:51So right click in here to throw a grenade.
05:53So that's like a single grenade.
05:55If we right click on one of these support gems here.
05:57The top one.
05:58This one here.
05:59Ah, you can.
06:00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
06:01Alright.
06:02So this is the new screen that we have for adding support gems.
06:04So this is actually the simplified way of looking at things.
06:06Where for each skill here's some things we're going to give you.
06:09So yeah.
06:10Multiple projectiles.
06:11That's a good one.
06:12So maybe click that and add that.
06:13And now when you use your grenade launcher.
06:14Now we get three grenades.
06:15Yes.
06:16Exactly.
06:17But the thing is there's still items, right?
06:18Like if you go down.
06:19Where is it?
06:20Actually maybe it's at the top.
06:21Yeah, it's here.
06:22Take this one out by clicking on it.
06:25If you click that.
06:27You can still take it out and move it to some other skill.
06:30Maybe go down to the sniper rifle for example.
06:32The high velocity rounds.
06:33Throw it in there.
06:34And now if you change to your sniper rifle on T.
06:37And then fire.
06:38Yeah, now you're getting three rounds for every time that you shoot.
06:41Nice.
06:42Yeah, this kind of thing is how the skill system works.
06:45And we've still got all of that depth.
06:46It's just that in PoE 2 it's a lot easier to understand.
06:49I'm a huge fan of how you did that.
06:51Like you didn't throw stuff out that made the game interesting.
06:54But you just made it one step easier to access and use.
06:58If you click on one of those supports again.
07:00If you're a PoE 1 player you probably click down here.
07:02And here's like the full list.
07:04And here's everything.
07:05Exactly, exactly, exactly.
07:06So, you know, this kind of thing is.
07:09So what's up with these?
07:10Why don't I have those?
07:11That's tier 2.
07:12Ah, okay.
07:13You have to get higher levels.
07:14Ah, I see.
07:15So, yeah.
07:16So let's see everything.
07:17Hey, baby.
07:18Don't spoil all our secrets.
07:20Ah, come on.
07:21So if you'd like to try a melee class as well.
07:23You know, this class is very unusual as far as action RPGs go.
07:26But if you go back to the character selection screen.
07:28And then scroll probably to the bottom I would say.
07:31Or maybe scroll to the bottom.
07:33Okay, no, actually maybe it's this one.
07:34Wait, no, actually go up.
07:35Where is it?
07:36Oh, yeah, here we go.
07:37Dreadgrin.
07:38Dreadgrin.
07:39Yeah, Dreadgrin.
07:40So click play on him.
07:41So I want to show you now like what melee is like with WASD.
07:44Because, you know, we had to put a lot of effort into that as well.
07:47It's worth mentioning, by the way, that you can still use click to move if you like.
07:51At any time, you know, if you're not happy with the control scheme you can change.
07:55Like, in fact, it's just right here.
07:57If you click mouse you can change to the old scheme.
07:59Just click around and so on.
08:00Nice.
08:01But you're probably going to want to click WASD and give that a shot.
08:03So, yeah.
08:04All right.
08:05So what do we have here?
08:06We have leap slam.
08:07So if you right click.
08:08This is double slam.
08:09Now this is going to be much harder, by the way.
08:11Oh, wow.
08:12We're in Act 3 now.
08:13So just be very careful.
08:14Wow.
08:15Don't run out of this too much.
08:16Oh, boy.
08:17Yeah.
08:18Now on middle click, if you click that, you'll create these volcanic fissures.
08:21And what I want you to do is make a couple of those and then use your right click slam ability on top of them.
08:26And then you see how it re-triggers the volcanic fissures.
08:30That's so fucking cool.
08:31Yeah.
08:32So the.
08:33Oh, just careful.
08:34Yes.
08:35I just noticed.
08:36Yeah.
08:37Now this area actually is kind of interesting because there's some people here who have
08:41been experimenting with trying to harness the power of the sun.
08:44And then they created this artificial sun in the distance over here.
08:48But as you get close to it, you're going to start taking damage if you're in the light.
08:52And when the cataclysm occurred, all of them went crazy and started worshipping the sun
08:56that they had created.
08:57So they've kind of got this cult of the sun here.
09:00So, yeah, if you stand out here, you start taking damage.
09:02I noticed.
09:03All right.
09:04Wow.
09:05Yeah.
09:06So am I correct that actually fire damage isn't really that good here because they are
09:11resistant to it?
09:12You're actually correct.
09:13You are a horribly misfit character for this selection.
09:16And then you say, oh, be careful.
09:18This is actually very difficult.
09:20Yeah.
09:21Yes.
09:22It's all your fault.
09:23Yeah.
09:24So if you just.
09:25Yeah.
09:26This is a dangerous place to be out here.
09:27So I suggest you run away a bit before we can get some more skills that maybe will help
09:29you with these guys.
09:31So what I'd like to do now.
09:33Yeah.
09:34Just is.
09:35Yeah.
09:36Once you've dealt with them.
09:38All right.
09:39All right.
09:40This is interesting.
09:41Yeah.
09:42So now run back this way, I think, to get away from them.
09:44Yes.
09:45Before you trigger anymore.
09:46All right.
09:47So what we're going to do here is there's a skill over here called Rampage.
09:50I believe it's right in the center there.
09:52Stampede.
09:53Sorry.
09:54Stampede.
09:55All right.
09:56So grab that and throw it in your skill screen.
09:57So pick that up.
09:58Left click.
09:59Scroll down.
10:00Put it in there.
10:01Now, what it is, is that this is on R.
10:02Now, what I want you to do is use the skill and just see how it works.
10:03So every step you make creates a explosion in the distance.
10:06Nice.
10:07Now, if you remember the middle click ability you were using earlier, if you use that a
10:10couple of times and then stampede over that, now, of course, you can trigger it many times
10:15and get a huge amount of extra things.
10:18So that ability, you know, if you're a PoE 1 player, you're like, if I see something
10:23that triggers off slams, you're like, well, what's the maximum number of slams I can
10:26do in the minimum amount of time?
10:28And this is the kind of thing that you come up with.
10:32I also want to show you another skill here called Hammer of the Gods.
10:35Let's do it.
10:36Now, we don't usually use many cooldowns because I think they're quite lazy game design.
10:39You know, you can always balance a skill by adding a cooldown to it.
10:42But we do want to have a couple of skills like this.
10:44And this one here is called Hammer of the Gods.
10:46So you can put that in as well.
10:49So if you use the skill just anywhere, maybe in the sea right now.
10:54So this one takes a little while to arrive.
10:56But when it does, it lands with a big slam.
10:59So that's another nice one.
11:01Is it also a slam skill?
11:03It is.
11:04Exactly, it is.
11:05It's not so great for that because really it's like one big slam instead of many little
11:08ones.
11:09So you're probably going to want to do something else.
11:10But it is nice to use from time to time.
11:13So here the best idea is to just always lure them into the shadow, right?
11:16Sure, absolutely.
11:17Now what I might do, if you don't mind, is if you would like, I can show you guys a
11:21boss that no one has seen before.
11:23Yes, I like that.
11:24That's a good idea.
11:25So what I'm going to do is I'm going to cheat to go to the top of this area in the
11:28last few minutes that we have here.
11:30And I'm just going to add a few more support gems just to improve my hammer.
11:34So what I'm going to be doing is I'm going to be doubling the amount of cooldowns that
11:37the hammer can do using another support gem.
11:40And I'm also going to be changing my armor break skill to be able to give me endurance
11:44charges which is going to then be used with another skill which is going to be able to
11:48double them and get a large amount.
11:49So let's have a look here.
11:50Let's do it.
11:51I'll let you do that because I know your bosses are quite hard actually.
11:54They are.
11:59And I still remember that you're actually not afraid of losing in a boss.
12:02For sure.
12:03You did that in the first presentation.
12:05So my strategy here is I want to get as...
12:07Oh, damn, he moved.
12:08Okay.
12:09I was going to build up a lot of these lava fishes here and then rampage through them.
12:12But the other thing I want to do is there's a stagger bar on the boss and I want to try
12:17and use this leap slam combo to build up as much stagger as possible.
12:21And if I can do that, I can use seismic cry to double the number of slams I get with
12:26the hammer and that will, you know, allow me to do a significant amount of damage.
12:32It's actually a lot harder without the audio cues for the boss.
12:36But since you dropped me into that difficult area with fire damage that is useless against
12:41them, so now...
12:42Why shouldn't you have to fight harder?
12:44Oh, no, don't move out of the way.
12:45Come on, come back.
12:46Oh, no.
12:47Ah.
12:48Okay.
12:49That was a bit wasted.
12:50Nice try.
12:51But, you know, here we go.
12:52All right.
12:53So where are we?
12:56Okay.
12:57Oh, no.
12:58So you definitely should not go in those because they slow you down and that's very
13:00dangerous when he uses certain other abilities.
13:02Like that one.
13:03Yeah.
13:04All right.
13:05But particularly...
13:06Oh, so now he's going to go into the sky and summon a sort of bullet hell moment here.
13:10And in the meantime I'm going to try and get him with my slams.
13:13Okay.
13:14Whoa.
13:15Okay.
13:16Right.
13:17Yeah.
13:18Ah, careful of this.
13:19Okay.
13:20Every time I see this game, it looks more awesome.
13:22And there's plenty of enthusiasm in the chat, by the way.
13:25I know you can't see it, but everyone's very excited.
13:30Okay.
13:31Well, hopefully I can get my stun off again and get the hammer slam.
13:35And hopefully this time I'll be a little bit more effective with it.
13:37Okay.
13:38Come over here.
13:39Okay.
13:40There we go.
13:41And then we want to do this.
13:42And then we want to do this.
13:43And then we want to do that.
13:44There we go.
13:45Okay.
13:46Right.
13:47So there we go.
13:48Oh, right.
13:49It's not off cooldown, but that's fine.
13:50I can just get one of them, which will double.
13:51So there we go.
13:52There we go.
13:53One and two.
13:54There we go.
13:55All right.
13:56So, oh, yeah.
13:57So we did pretty well there.
13:58All right.
13:59Careful of this.
14:00Oh, okay.
14:01Okay.
14:02Okay.
14:03Now this is dangerous.
14:04So, oh.
14:05Oh, boy.
14:06Yeah, yeah.
14:07Okay.
14:08There we go.
14:09But I think we've nearly got him.
14:10Oh, he's doing one more bullet health phase.
14:11Okay.
14:12Right.
14:13So I want to put as many of these fishes down while he's doing that.
14:14And then ideally I can time the rampage to, yeah, there we go.
14:15There we go.
14:16There we go.
14:17That was nice.
14:18Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:19There we go.
14:20All right.
14:21So it should be very close now.
14:22Okay.
14:23Right.
14:25Okay.
14:26There we go.
14:27Okay.
14:28Right.
14:29One more of these.
14:30Whoa, whoa, whoa.
14:31But he nearly got me.
14:32That's true.
14:33Yeah.
14:34Okay.
14:35There we go.
14:36I think I've got him.
14:37I think I've got him.
14:38Finish him.
14:39There we go.
14:40Come on.
14:41Come on.
14:42Drop the hammer.
14:43Stop moving.
14:44Oh, yes.
14:45Drop the hammer.
14:46Good idea.
14:47Good idea.
14:48Drop the hammer.
14:49All right.
14:50Now come over here.
14:51Come over here.
14:52There we go.
14:53All right.
14:54So, yeah.
14:55So, yeah.
14:56That's just one of the 100 boss fights that we have in Path of Exile 2.
14:59Wow.
15:00And it's not like some in-game boss either.
15:01This is just a random boss in the middle of Act 3.
15:04Some dude.
15:05Yeah, yeah.
15:06So we have lots of these.
15:07And, yeah, it's a really huge part of what I enjoy in Path of Exile the most is designing,
15:13you know, like working with Mark, designing boss fights.
15:15It's just a really fun time.
15:17Really?
15:18I mean, you stepped up your game in every aspect.
15:20It's so damn impressive how you went from this small indie Diablo 2 successor basically
15:27to an actual AAA super action RPG that still has all that depth.
15:32And that's the thing.
15:33We really want that AAA combat feel.
15:34And it's a major reason why we made a sequel at all, you know?
15:37Yes.
15:38Like a lot of people say, well, you know, you just released Path of Exile 1 to the most
15:41success it's ever had.
15:42Why do you need to even make a sequel?
15:44And the answer really is that because I'm not happy with how Path of Exile 1's combat
15:48feels.
15:49And getting that to a point which I am happy just, you know, requires a new game and new
15:52things to be made.
15:53And I think that always was its biggest weakness.
15:55That was...
15:56Absolutely.
15:57You always had...
15:58We're extremely strong at mechanics.
15:59Right, right, right.
16:00But because you started with much less budget and experience...
16:03Absolutely, absolutely.
16:04That was the one area where it was always difficult to catch up.
16:06That slick AAA feel.
16:07I mean, those character rigs were made in 2007.
16:11You know, like our animators don't even want to work with them anymore.
16:14So, you know, what they can do now with our animation team, which is, you know, extremely
16:18top-notch.
16:19You know, those guys can make amazing animations with the newer stuff that we're doing now.
16:23So, yeah.
16:24It's honestly, like our animation team, I can't say enough good things about them.
16:27They're obviously doing a very good job.
16:30So, you mentioned that WASD changed a lot of game design.
16:33What was the major change?
16:34And do you expect WASD to be the default for PoE 2?
16:38So, in our studio, I would say about 75% of our studio kind of converted over to WASD.
16:43Really?
16:44But 25% of people would be the holdouts.
16:46But that being said, we want to make sure that the game still plays well with click-to-move.
16:51Even, you know, if you prefer that sort of style.
16:53And, you know, it can come down to what characters you play.
16:55But really, like, you know, we had to go back and work on every single character class that
16:59we already thought we finished and improve it all.
17:01You know, like, once you've experienced being able to move while shooting, you can't go back.
17:05So, you know, things like the Sorceress and the Ranger all had to change.
17:08Like, all of these, you know, all these things had to change.
17:10We added a movement component to all of our attacks.
17:13You know, it just changed a lot.
17:16Even boss design, you know, like, things are more dodgeable when you're moving around like this.
17:19So, you know, you have to think about that when it comes to doing the AI and things like that.
17:23So, yeah, it just kind of affected every area.
17:25So, honestly, it would be reasonable to say that part of the reason for the delay was this change.
17:31You know, it forced us to redo, like, a huge amount of work.
17:33But it really is worth it because I think the game got a lot better after we did it.
17:37Alright.
17:38You really don't like to make things easy on yourself, do you?
17:40No, for sure.
17:41For sure.
17:42Yeah, I mean, you know, honestly, we made way too much content for this game.
17:45And, you know, so we maybe start regretting it now.
17:48But, you know, it's okay.
17:50Hopefully it means that on launch we, you know, have lots of things to be able to do.
17:54I think the excitement is very high for it.
17:58Guys, in the chat, do you have any questions for Jonathan before he has to go?
18:04Then I will transfer them to him.
18:07So, yeah, for me it was actually at the start pretty jarring, though.
18:12Because I look at my skill bar and I'm used to, like, Q is the next skill at the next button.
18:19But there's W.
18:20So it's always one button further.
18:23But I think that's just because I'm playing here in this weird convention setup.
18:27I think it's easy to get used to it.
18:29There's people in the chat saying I'm also playing only WSD right now.
18:34So, yeah, I think you can get used to it.
18:37But it's pretty jarring at the start, I think.
18:39It does take a while.
18:40And the funny thing is a lot of people who are used to playing action RPGs,
18:43I really want to make sure they actually give it a shot.
18:45Because, yeah, it does take a second.
18:47But once you've done it, you honestly, I find it very hard to go back.
18:50It's a significant improvement.
18:51And, you know, it's funny as well because I was even skeptical myself when we first did it.
18:55Because I had played some other action RPGs that had tried WSD.
18:58And they had done a not so great job of it.
19:00And it didn't really feel very good to play.
19:03But when we made The Mercenary, I was just like, okay, I really want to try this out.
19:07And I'm really glad we did.
19:09Because it ended up being that if you do do it well, it can feel really excellent.
19:13Yeah, I think The Mercenary really profited from it.
19:15It's more precise, people in the chat are saying.
19:18So the main question I can answer for you, when's Early Access?
19:22When does it start?
19:23November 15th, that was announced, this convention.
19:26So you don't have to wait that much longer to play it.
19:29I'm very much looking forward to it.
19:31I know you are.
19:32Jonathan, thanks a lot for your time.
19:34Thanks for bringing the demo.
19:36Good job with the boss.