Javed Akhtar, Indian screenwriter, lyricist and poet, speaks with Mayank Chhaya on the famous Salim-Javed storywriting duo of Hindi cinema| SAM Conversation
Javed Akhtar, Indian screenwriter, lyricist and poet, speaks with Mayank Chhaya on the famous Salim-Javed storywriting duo of Hindi cinema| SAM Conversation
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00:00They did about 24 films together, out of which 22 were blockbusters.
00:25It hasn't happened before, I don't think it's going to happen again.
00:29If that has not happened in the last 4 plus decades, then it is reasonable to say that
00:35Salim Khan and Javed Akhtar, or Salim Javed, uncontestably Hindi cinema's most celebrated
00:42and admired story, screenplay and dialogue writers, will have no peers.
00:48Separated by nearly 10 years, Salim Khan, who is 88 now, and Javed Akhtar, who is 79,
00:56straddle the decade of 1970 like movie colossi who ruled everything they surveyed.
01:03A three-part docu-series about their life and times on Amazon Prime, titled Angry Young
01:08Men, may be a tad too high on gushing admiration, it does offer insights into what and how the
01:15two did what they did, and why there may never be a marquee cinema writer like them.
01:23Javed Akhtar spoke to Mahim Shahi Reports to offer some slices of that glorious career.
01:30Welcome to Mahim Shahi Reports, Mr. Akhtar. It's always a great pleasure to have you.
01:37Javed Saab, an aspect of your partnership that has not been explored, in my view,
01:44is the age difference. Mr. Khan was born in 1935, you were born in 1945.
01:52If you look at it from one standpoint. He was not born in 1975, he was born in 1935.
02:02No, so I was saying that if you look at it from one angle, by the time he was already an adult of
02:0820, you were still just about 10. Do you think that age difference has had any bearing on the
02:16way you constructed your work early on? Yeah, maybe, because you see, as I said in recently,
02:24I don't know whether you have watched the documentary or not, but it is on.
02:28I have, I have.
02:31Okay, and in that documentary, I mentioned that as far as the work is concerned, we were equal
02:36partners, but not in a personal life. He was an elder to me and he was like an elder brother.
02:42Actually, he and Bhabhi, his wife, they were in a way for quite some time, they were almost like
02:49surrogate parents to me. So, he has left a great influence on my personality.
02:58I have learned many things from him. But when the work was concerned, then we were equal.
03:05I'm interested to know how that age difference, now 10 years one could argue could be called
03:11almost a generation, at least in current times. How do you bridge that gap?
03:18You see, first of all, there was a lot of mutual respect for each other. In spite of the fact that
03:25I was 10 years younger than him, he never called me Tum. And obviously, I could not have called him
03:31because he was my senior. So, there was some kind of decency and some formality in our relationship.
03:44In spite of being very close, but there were certain holds barred.
03:50I see. I don't want to romanticize it, but still I'm curious to know when you first met him,
03:56whenever you did, what kind of an exchange was it? Was it hello? Hi?
04:02I was introduced to him, but I recognized him because I'd seen him in many films,
04:06including Professor and Barat and so on. So, obviously, when I met him, I knew who he is.
04:12And that time he was an actor. But as I came to know him more and we worked together in a film,
04:21Saradu Rutera, where he was acting and I was an assistant director and dialogue writer.
04:28So, I came to know that he has a kind of a portrait for writing stories and he narrated
04:36me a story, which was very good. Although when later it was made into a film, the director made
04:43unrecognizable changes in it and it lost its intensity. But the original, so I had heard the
04:50original story, which was very good. So, he had a flair for stories. I had a flair for dialogue.
04:58So, we met and we developed this relationship and screenplay, which I must say, in all honesty,
05:06that he introduced me to the art of screenplay. Then, obviously, I learned it also. So,
05:12that is how it was. So, it was never the relationship of two equals. He was my senior
05:20in every which way. You know, speaking of dialogues, do you remember what you felt
05:28when you first saw a character, anyone on the big screen mouthing your lines? What was the feeling?
05:35Well, the first film where I saw characters mouthing my line was Sarathi Lutera.
05:41Where the biggest star was Mr. Sheikh Mukhtar. And I was working in that film for 100 rupees
05:50per month. And the director, Mr. HM Sagar, for some reason decided to change some dialogue in
05:58the climax. And when I look back, I find it funny and amusing also. But perhaps that was my basic
06:06trait. So, I walked out of the film. And I was very, very upset that how could he change my
06:12dialogue. In the first film, 100 rupees per month. I see. Now, when I look back, I find it funny
06:20because who cares what was the dialogue in the climax of Sarathi Lutera. But for me, it was very
06:26important that time. And I felt very hurt and humiliated that how could he change my dialogue.
06:33But that is reflective of your passion for lines, I suppose, early on.
06:37Yeah, perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. And that is what Salim Javed maintained always.
06:42We did not allow any kind of indiscreet and random change.
06:48That means the professional conceit, professional arrogance,
06:52professional self-assurance was already there in you.
06:57I want to jump a bit to before we come to Zanjeer. You had already written three movies,
07:10Andaz, Adhikar, Hathi Mere Saathi and Sita Aur Gita. Sorry, four movies.
07:15Yes. Actually, Adhikar was worth writing. Her name was not there. Although ultimately,
07:22it came into public domain and everybody came to know and so many people mentioned Adhikar also.
07:28But at that time, it was pure worth writing. The picture did not carry a credit.
07:36In terms of your professional work, having written the entire movies,
07:40feature-length movies, you had already done four films by the time you came to Zanjeer.
07:45Zanjeer was the first film where story, screenplay and dialogue, all three were hers.
07:50Otherwise, there were other writers also. Like the first film we did, Andaz,
07:55the dialogue was written by Gulzar Shah. I see. Okay. Okay. That's interesting. You know,
08:02the reason I'm asking you this is because both Andaz and Hathi Mere Saathi had Rajesh Khanda,
08:09who was already a massive star with tremendous on-screen charisma.
08:13What was your response to him as a writer? Because you went on to be so closely identified
08:19with Mr. Bachchan, but Rajesh Khanda as a superstar of that time, how did you look at him
08:24as a writer? Well, those were the times when the child who was born in India would say
08:34Rajesh Khanda first, then Mamma and Papa. But it was a short period and somehow came a time when
08:45we realized that it would be difficult for us to work together because I mean,
08:50he was surrounded by so many people and so many psychophants and so many
08:56yes-men that it was difficult to work with him. So we parted and then we became friendly also.
09:05And a month later, we did a film also with him. But the kind of film we were writing and the kind
09:11of film we had in our mind were much more suitable for an actor like Amitabh Bachchan,
09:21although he was at that time not a superstar to say the least. But he was an unbelievably good
09:29actor and he was the man who we felt that will be able to play our Vijay.
09:38Right. Ironically, although you called the movie Zanjeer, you unshackled the Hindi cinema
09:46protagonist from being a veritable chocolate factory into a brooding, seething, angst-ridden
09:54man. I know you've said it many times before that when you were writing it,
09:58you were not consciously thinking of creating a persona. It just happened along the way.
10:02No, you write any script. If you are honest to the character and you don't try to
10:10manipulate the character like a puppet, but you accept that this is a living being
10:16and obviously every living being has pluses and minuses and so on. This kind of a person,
10:25what will he do and what he will not. What he will say and what he will not. If you remain loyal to
10:31the person's character, you don't use him according to your convenience,
10:36it will become a real persona in the film.
10:40How quickly did the Zanjeer protagonist become a real persona in your mind?
10:47Well, it doesn't happen in a particular moment, but if you remain loyal to the characteristic of
10:54the character, you see Zanjeer wasn't actually, he was not the first angry young man on Hindi
11:00screen. Who was Birju in Mother India? Who was Ganga in Ganga Jamuna? They were angry young men,
11:09but they were diluted because they had romance, they had songs, they had dances, they have
11:14everything. What we did that we kept this angry young man undiluted. We remained loyal to his
11:22characteristic, not only the character, but the characteristics of the character. We remain loyal.
11:28We did not ask this character to do anything at all for the box office, which is not the part of
11:36this persona. And that is why for the first time, a totally undiluted, totally pure angry young man
11:44came on the screen.
11:46You know, interestingly, I'm glad you mentioned it. In Zanjeer, there is a scene where Jaya Bachchan
11:52tells Amitabh Bachchan,
12:01and to which what Amitabh said to me is perhaps one of your most memorable responses. He says,
12:07Now this is spoken by a man who is both angry at the same time, full of subtle idealism.
12:29I don't think this line has ever been discussed by anyone before. I know it's difficult to go
12:35back and tell me what you were thinking, but it has that cadence. Tell me a bit about this
12:40particular line.
12:43We were thinking exactly what these lines are saying. You see,
12:47There is a line from a poem of yours,
13:04So what happens that we start living in our comfort of many of us and forget what is happening in the
13:11world, what is happening in a society and this unawareness, this insensitivity is not proper,
13:22not right. I'm putting it very mildly. I have stronger words for it, but I'm not using them.
13:28Right. No, this is wonderful. My compliments because when I watched Zanjeer again and it
13:34clearly jumped out at me one more time. It's interesting that people didn't register at that
13:40time. This line is still extremely relevant after nearly 50 years. Coming back to the
13:48nomenclature of Vijay, what's the story? Why? What is so special about the word Vijay for you?
13:56Now, actually, we had to name the character and Vijay sounded a good name and once we did it,
14:03then we kept this character wherever he came in Diwar, Trishul, everywhere. Actually,
14:19Sholay may be he could have been Vijay, but the other character name we had decided Zeru.
14:25So we thought that both the names should not start with Z. So instead of Vijay, we kept it Jai.
14:32Coming to Diwar, a lot has been said, written about it. I'm interested to know when you have
14:46a boy character, Master Alankar, who was, I think, a very competent young actor,
14:52and he appeared in three of your films. When you start a character with the tattoo that says,
14:58My father is a thief, you're already giving that character a trajectory in your mind that somebody
15:06who has that is not likely going to be a saint. Was that the same process in your mind or it was
15:14just a tattoo that could have gone and he could have been a saint with that tattoo as well?
15:19No, no, not possible. We had the basic plot in mind and we had to justify his anger and his
15:26bitterness and obviously, I mean, whatever may happen, but with time, you know, it becomes
15:34off the radar sometimes, becomes vague and off focus. But this thing was rather too dramatic
15:46that he has a tattoo on his hand and he says at one time that it is not only on my hand,
15:52it's written on my soul and no plastic chandelier can remove it from there.
15:57So, he was carrying it all the time. It was reminding him what had happened and it did not
16:05become soft focus or out of focus with time. Right. You know, to me, that is the essence of
16:13the movie. In fact, in my judgment, the movie pivots around this man's, this young boy's
16:21formative years as Mera Baap Chor Hai. That's true. Yeah. You know, it's another point that
16:27I've been wanting to ask you is among all your movies, be it Sholay, Diwaar, Shakti,
16:33any number of them, which movie do you think lends itself to novelization easily?
16:40Any. If there is a story, if there is a complete narrative, which can be called a story,
16:47it can turn into a novel. What's the problem? Given a choice, if I were a publisher asking
16:56you to turn one of your movies into a novel at this stage, which one would you choose?
17:00I think Shakti will be an interesting novel because there are three characters and all
17:08three of them are right in their own position. That makes it very interesting.
17:14I see. Now, I'm glad you mentioned Shakti because I'm jumping a bit. This question was my last
17:19question, but I'm advancing it. There is a scene in Shakti, I'm going to overanalyze it and second
17:24guess you as a writer, which I never do, but just for the fun of it. There is a scene where Amitabh
17:30Bachchan and Dilip Kumar meet at Mahim Fort after a great deal of tensions and Amitabh asks him,
17:38why did you call me here? Dilip Kumar says, because the place where you live is so far from my house
17:46that it is difficult for you to come there. That's what Dilip Kumar says. And even while I was
17:51watching it for the first time in Bombay, my response was, were you underlining the moral
17:58distance that the father and son had traveled apart? Again, I know I'm overanalyzing it, but I
18:03would like to know what you thought. No, no, exactly. This line means that there is such a
18:10huge gap that you cannot come to my world and I cannot come to yours. So we have to meet somewhere.
18:18Of course, that's what it meant.
18:22Which character of your movies you think is substantive enough to have
18:28an entire movie around him or her at this stage?
18:34Hmm, interesting question.
18:43If you want to think of it and come back to it, I have no problem at all.
18:48No, no. Actually, you see, a story is an interaction of different characters.
18:59If you take out the character from that story, then I think, I mean, you have characters like
19:07James Bond or say many others, Iron Man and whatever. So that is a different thing that
19:14you keep on giving them new stories. But our characters, I think they are too entrenched
19:23in the plot. So once you bring them out, I don't know where we'll take them.
19:29Maybe Mr. India.
19:34Okay. Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, because it can have any context.
19:40That the hero and that heroine. Actually, Sridevi is not in the world, but if you imagine
19:48that she is there, I think these two can be taken out for another mission.
19:54Interesting. Interesting. Maybe you should do it.
19:59One distinct feature of your movies is that perhaps not many people, I think, realize,
20:04they know it, but they don't realize it, is the cadence of the lines, the way your characters speak.
20:11And since you were the one who always...
20:23Yeah, one distinct feature of your movies is the cadence in which your characters speak.
20:29And since you were the one who wrote all the lines and dialogues, I'm interested to know that
20:36how is it that you arrive at the way a character speaks? It could be Gabbar,
20:41it could be Surma Bhopali, it could be even Yunus Parvez in some small little bit.
20:48Everybody has some distinct cadence.
20:52Everybody has in this world. Everybody has a style of talking. One is not even aware of it.
20:59Their stresses are different, their construction of sentences is different,
21:03and their tempo, their energy level are different, and their vocabulary is different.
21:09Their vocabulary shows their upbringing, their class,
21:13their socio-political or socio-economic background. So, if you are sensitive to words,
21:22then you know that this is the person. This person will have this kind of vocabulary.
21:28This person will say this in such words. So, if you are word sensitive, you know,
21:35words are very interesting thing. Words are not only what they are in the dictionary.
21:39Words are much more than that. There are no two words in the world who mean exactly the same.
21:47Every word is an individual and strictly an individual. In dictionary, they can have the
21:54same meaning, but in life they are not. Words are like people, you know, when a person enters
22:01whom you don't know much. So, the first thing that hits you is the physical appearance of the
22:07person. Then the person is introduced to you. So, now, oh, he's a doctor. And then you ask him,
22:14where do you live? And when he tells you that if he is actually from such and such city,
22:20and then you find the association, you know, I have two friends, very good friends in that
22:25same city. Do you know any one of them? And he said, yes, yes, I know that particular gentleman.
22:30And that is how slowly you discover the class of the person and you can put him in a certain slot
22:42that this is what the person is. He's a doctor. Now, same way, a word carries a meaning like a
22:50man carries a profession. But man is not only profession. Okay, apple. Apple's vocation is to
23:01mean a fruit which is red. But that's not the only thing. When you say apple,
23:07so many references are made in your mind. Same way, this word also, word is also known by the
23:15company it keeps, where it was used, where have you heard it so often? And that is how you
23:22understand the word. So, if you have this kind of interest in me and understand me,
23:29then you will choose the right word. What this man will say, this person will not use this word,
23:35he'll use that word. The word, the company that it keeps, that's a fascinating way to put it.
23:44You know, speaking of which, again, in Sholay, there are so many lines, but
23:48one line which still lives and breathes in many different political contexts
23:52is, itna sanada kyun hai bhai? In so many memes, I mean, you could have said it. So,
24:00tell me a bit about it. A line like that, it has its context in the movie, but when it
24:07detaches itself from a movie and then lives on, what do you feel as a writer?
24:11You see, you are the blind man. The only difference it would feel was the lack of sound.
24:19Absolutely.
24:21Besides that, itna sanada kyun hai bhai, you have really taken out the dialogue and
24:28made it actually much more meaningful. Thank you. But the fact is, the sanada
24:34creates sometimes indifference. The other day I was talking about it, you know, we have so many
24:42moments that tigers should not be killed and hunting is bad and so on. I have never heard
24:51this about fishing. Exactly. Never. Actually, fishing is supposed to be a game of people who
25:01are at peace and fishing means tranquility. Now, let us look how tranquil it is for the fish.
25:09It is so violent.
25:12You enter a room and you see some favourite sweet of yours hanging and you go and try to eat it and
25:20a hook comes and goes through your palate and then you are pulled and you are pulled to a place
25:26where there is no oxygen. And before you are dead, they start skinning you. This is what fishing is.
25:36But why nobody is aware of this sadistic cruelty? There is only one reason.
25:46Fish does not have vocal cords. Interesting. So if the society does not have vocal cords,
25:55nobody will know what is happening to the society. You need to have vocal cords.
26:05This is remarkable. You know, fish is something, because in this country where I live, in the US,
26:12fishing is such a big deal. Father and son bonding over fishing.
26:17This is ultimate tranquility. This is ultimate peace. How wonderful they are. They go for fishing.
26:26They are nice people. And look what nice people do. And nobody has noticed because fish cannot
26:33grab. Right. You know, to change again gears a bit, you've been a practically a poet all your
26:42life from a very early age, at least in terms of your sensibility. That's my sense. How is it that
26:48early on when your movies were doing so well, did you ever feel compelled to say that maybe I should
26:57write a song for this one? No, no, no, no. At that time, I was not a poet. I was not writing poetry.
27:06Actually, I started writing poetry at the age where people generally stopped writing poetry.
27:14I was perhaps 30, 31 when I started writing poetry. And most of the poets, at least whom I know of,
27:24have done their major work in their 20s. So perhaps 30 becomes a bit old like Olympians.
27:35They should hold it for a poet also. But that is how it was my priority. I knew that I can
27:42write poetry. That's what I meant. But I knew what is good poetry. You know, ignorance gives you
27:51certain confidence, which I'm afraid I did not have because I knew what is good poetry. I remember
27:58hundreds and thousands of couplets. I still remember of other people. So I was scared that
28:04if I write poetry, will I be as good or even near this standard? So perhaps it stopped me for a
28:14while. I could suggest a line to my friend who was a poet. Write this line like this. But I never wrote
28:21myself. But ultimately, poetry is my home since my seventh generation was a poet.
28:34You know, speaking of which, if you were to say, choose one song either from Deewar or Sholay or
28:41any movie, Bajpoor, kahin se bhi, yeh dosti hum nahin todenge. If you were to write it
28:48in the same situation, the same song to the same composition by the great Rahul Dev Berman,
28:56how do you assess yeh dosti?
28:58It's a very popular song. Very, very popular song. And I believe Mr. Anand Bakshi was an
29:04exceptionally talented writer.
29:06Absolutely. No, no. I'm not even for a moment suggesting that.
29:10Like if you ask me, which is your favourite song from Indian film music? Aaj se zindagi ke safar
29:19mein gudhar jaate hain jo maqam.
29:21Indeed, you said.
29:22Brilliant song. So Sahil, Majrooh, Shailendra, sabne hi bahut achche kaam kiya hain.
29:30Magar yeh ke unke baare mein, apne seniors ke baare mein soche, yeh maine likha hota,
29:35tumke aaj kaise likha hoon, main sochta nahin.
29:39Main RD ke saath, I have done a lot of work, like Sagar, like 1942, A Love Story and so on.
29:48And mostly, our work was appreciated, which we did together. And unfortunately, he died
29:57much earlier than he should have. He was hardly 50.
30:02Absolutely. Absolutely. No, what I meant was because it's an interesting exercise that
30:09how does a different poet or a lyricist approach a song like Yeh dosti hum nahi todenge.
30:18But you think obviously it fits perfectly in the way Bakshi saab wrote.
30:23Bakshi saab has written perhaps few thousand songs, three thousand or four thousand, whatever.
30:33All the songs are not masterpieces, of course, because if you write so much,
30:38you can't be good all the time. But if you collect exceptionally good songs,
30:44that too, that number will be higher than many poets complete work, songwriters complete work.
30:53He was an exceptionally talented person. There's no doubt about it.
30:58Right. Why is it that since your split, there has not been the emergence of any writer who
31:06managed to grab as much marquee attention as the two of you did? It's almost as if yours
31:12is a freakish accident. It was rather freakish because I mean, I have great respect for young
31:21writers and I think many of them are doing very good work. But you see, you need consistency.
31:27People don't accept you very easily. You have to keep on proving yourself right again and again
31:34and again and again and in different setups. So then they accept ki nahi bhai in mein kuch baat
31:42hai. Toh wo consistency nahi hai. I can't think of, I can name certain films where the writers
31:48working brilliant and I feel surprised and actually incompetent that whether I'll be able
31:55to do such a good work. But at the same time, that consistency is missing. One after another,
32:04four, five films which are not only good but successful in film industry because ultimately
32:10it's an industry, not only film. So you have to be good, of course, but you have to be successful.
32:18So your film should be good and successful. So often it happens that you see a good film but
32:24it doesn't make much noise on the box office. You need both the things and constantly, not once,
32:32again and again and again. That had not happened. Right. I mean, 24 films and 22 blockbusters.
32:40I think it's perhaps unparalleled in the industry. Yeah, it happened.
32:50Let me tell you one thing. I mean, it's a change happening. Till Trishul, which was written by
33:001976, 78 were released and we started working from 70, 71. For first six, seven years,
33:09we did not have an idea that there can be a second version of dialogue or screenplay.
33:16All that you have seen before. The first film where we rewrote certain scenes was Trishul.
33:22I see. Otherwise, whether Deewan or Manjeer or anything for that matter before that,
33:31these are first version. So first draft is the final draft. First draft is the final draft.
33:39That's all. Whether the screenplay or the dialogue, it was never, never related to anything.
33:46So that's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. That's amazing. But I respect all that. But both of you,
33:56you and Mr. Khan, I met him just once. But even during that meeting, one could see absolutely
34:01raging self-assurance, self-belief. I don't think I've seen that in too many Hindi cinema or perhaps
34:10I've seen that in too many Hindi cinema or perhaps in any other Hindi cinema writer that you are so
34:16completely self-assured about your craft and to having two people simultaneously. That's,
34:23that's right. Now, you see, we proved right so many times. So it was confidence and self-assured.
34:30If it would have gone wrong, then it would have been called conceit and arrogance.
34:36It is the result that decides whether it is self-assurance or arrogance.
34:45No, but quality is also a thing in itself, whether or not it succeeds. Quality is whether it succeeds or not. Right?
34:52Yeah, yeah. Just last few things, Mr. Akhtar. There is an interesting detail in Diwar, when
34:59Iftikhar and Sudhir were getting their shoes polished. I am not talking about the dialogue.
35:05There, they are talking with a booklet of horse racing in their hands. And Iftikhar is asking,
35:12these two names, Royal Salute and Halla Gulla. These are such charming names, Halla Gulla. Now,
35:22I know this is too far back and maybe you didn't even think of these details while writing it.
35:27But how, I mean, Halla Gulla for a horse, where does that come from? Actually, I don't have any
35:33memory. Thank you for reminding me. But maybe there was a horse at that time. I don't know.
35:39I don't remember that how this came to be. Correct. It's replete with, that's what I'm saying,
35:46your body of work is replete with such throwaway interesting details.
35:51And within the context that you are operating, commercial Hindi cinema and the fact that you
35:57are so unbelievably successful, that burden is something else. I'm surprised that after that,
36:04you didn't feel tempted to re-partner and say, let's try another couple of movies.
36:09Oh, yeah. It was almost 40 years when we parted. It was 1981. We parted in 1981. So it is more than
36:2140 years, I suppose. More than 40 years. Just last couple of seasons. I'm told you're writing
36:28a new movie? Yes. Oh, you've already written it? Actually, I have written a couple of scripts,
36:34not only one. And it started, the process started during
36:40Corona. And because we couldn't go anywhere, I was also stranded in my Andala house. So
36:49I started writing. And basically, somewhere I was feeling that people have almost forgotten that
36:56I was a scriptwriter also. They only know me now as a poet and a songwriter. So I thought I must
37:01do something again. So there were a couple of ideas that I liked. I was inspired. One of them
37:10I shared with my daughter, Zoya. And she got very excited. She said, you must write it. I would like
37:16to make this film. So I have finished the script. I have yet to narrate it to Zoya. Zoya is a very
37:24tough customer. Yeah, she looks it. Yeah, she doesn't accept everything. So I don't know,
37:30I'm rather scared that when I narrate it to her, what will be her reaction. But the other script
37:36is taken by Mr. Boney Kapoor. It has not gone on the set, but it will. Can you force, I know you
37:44cannot reveal the details. I don't want the details. But in terms of genre, what kind of
37:49mood are we talking about? You see, I have always believed and I think this is the belief,
37:55this has been the belief of Salim Javed that many people think that you can be either sensible
38:02or entertaining. I mean, these are alternatives. These are two choices. No, we never believe that.
38:10We believe that a film which has proper morality and has certain dignity, certain class
38:19and at the same time, it can be highly entertaining and it will grab the attention of
38:28major audience. So that is how it is. It's a mainstream film. Both of them are mainstream
38:34pictures, but scripts, but at the same time, they are not absurd or they are not cheap,
38:41which we have never done. We have certain holds barred. We had and even today in this script that
38:48I have done, there are certain holds barred. In my whole career, I have not written a single line
38:56which can be called vulgar or double meaning by any stretch of imagination and our characters
39:04have certain dignity. You would notice one thing that our villains are wicked, vicious, sadistic,
39:12but not perverts. Absolutely. Not lecherous. They are not interested at all there.
39:20Absolutely. On the contrary, in one of our films, there is a dialogue about it that Rakhi is
39:27kidnapped by the villain Shakaal and he says that you will remain here in my den till your husband
39:34comes to find you. So she gets slightly tensed that what does he mean if I am going to live here
39:44and what he intends. So he understands the tension on her face and he says that
39:50No, no, Mr. Shivkumar, you don't worry. I don't have time for these useless things.
39:58I remember that very well. But even in Zanjeer, if you look at Ajit's character, very suave,
40:07very sophisticated, very polished. It doesn't go down a notch from that level.
40:14Not at all. I suppose that's your personal upbringing or your personal taste.
40:21He had a mistress, Mona Darling, but that's all. I mean,
40:25a person like Ajit had the right to have a mistress.
40:31And finally, before I let you go, Javed Saab, you did only one movie with the great
40:36redoubtable Dilip Kumar. Mashaal? Which one did you do?
40:40Mashaal.
40:42I stand corrected. I'm sorry, but that doesn't change my question. Someone of that caliber,
40:49when you write for him, is there something special that you do or you just write the way
40:55you write nevertheless?
40:56No, no. If you are working with actors like, say, Amitabh Bachchan or Dilip Kumar,
41:02you know that you can put the weight on the actor and the actor will carry it. Sometimes
41:08when you feel that the actor has limited talent and moral range, then you don't give him that
41:16weightage. You make the scene easier for him. But these actors, you know, could carry anything.
41:24Amitabh Bachchan, you give him any scene, he'll do it with competence. You give him any line,
41:29he'll make them natural. He'll make them effective because he has that range. So with
41:34such kind of actor, you can, I mean, push the envelope that you know that this actor will carry.
41:41Right. You know, in Shakti, again, completely inane line. I seem to have some thing for inane
41:48lines, but the way Dilip Kumar intones it,
41:51Wahi kamaal karte ho tu, agar khud nahi samatte toh kamse kum pooch liya karo. I mean, it's a
41:57pretty straight line, but the way he says it, it sounds profound.
42:00Yeah, this is how elders used to talk.
42:04Right.
42:06This was their way of talking.
42:08Elders' vocabulary was the same.
42:10Yes, yes.
42:12When sons used to listen quietly, then father used to speak like this.
42:20So father doesn't speak at all.
42:22Yes, yes.
42:24Now, wonderful, Javed sahib, always a great pleasure. I hope it was worth your while.
42:28I rushed through and if you ever come to Chicago, let me know.
42:32Sure.