Air Marshal Sumit Mukerji (Retd.), former AOC-in-C, Southern Air Command, speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on the critical shortage of combat aircaft in the Indian Air Force and its implications | SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor. Our topic is the critical
00:17shortage of combat aircraft in the Indian Air Force. For this, it is our pleasure to
00:24welcome Air Marshal Sumit Mukherjee, former Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Southern
00:32Air Command. Recipient of Ashwara Chakra, a very experienced fighter pilot, as very
00:44few can say that he's seen the heights from where it may be daylight here, but you can
00:50see stars and moon across. Also been an air attaché at Washington DC. Welcome to SAM
00:59Conversation, South Asia Monitor.
01:03Thank you. Thank you, Anil. And thank you for having me on the show. It's a pleasure.
01:08With the current holding of aircraft, combat aircraft in the Indian Air Force being about
01:14530, which amounts to about 31 squadrons, it appears to be a woefully short force considering
01:31that the aim is at least 42 squadrons. And there is a thought that if Bangladesh is also
01:40going to be added to our list of adversaries, we may need 50 squadrons. The Air Chief, Air
01:51Chief Marshal A.P. Singh has not pulled any punches recently in stating that something
02:02has to be done very, very urgently. I invite you to please throw light on this subject.
02:12Well, Anil, it's like this. You know, the Air Chief has been absolutely correct in what
02:18he said. While it may not have been at a public forum, he did express his views to the Indus
02:28Tide Aeronautics Limited. And what he expressed was, I mean, it was a sad commentary, I would
02:35say, on the state of affairs in the Air Force as far as the aircraft are concerned. Now,
02:44he is naturally quite a valid man as the Air Chief, but it's a question of national security.
02:54I think the nation has to be valid. The government has to be valid. It's just not the Air Force
02:59that is, the Air Force is just part of the system. We are part of the population. We
03:04are part of the military. We are part of the government. And I think we deserve to be recognized
03:13in that the nation needs to understand that somebody is not doing their job and providing
03:21what we need to provide for reasons of national security.
03:26You know, it's sort of an irony because I have had the opportunity of meeting a number
03:36of foreign arms dealers in a number of the Deaf Expos or Aero India that I've attended
03:48in Delhi in earlier years. And I've had the opportunity of telling at least the Russian
04:00ones that you owe a great commendation to the Indian Air Force aviators who have flown
04:13your aircraft far beyond, you know, the parameters of the vintage that you set for them. And
04:24also the terrain and temperature conditions. They agreed. In every opportunity, they agreed.
04:33But I mean, it's otherwise, you know, very sad that what is, I think there is no doubt
04:42about being the best Air Force in the world, should not be short of, you know, critically
04:51short of the Scots. We were not used, the government didn't, you know, just didn't have
05:01it in their mind to use the Air Force in 1962, when the Chinese attacked. Otherwise, history
05:09would have been different. But in 65 and 71, and then much later in Kargil, the Air
05:20Force is, I mean, Pakistan knows exactly what you guys mean. One of the, you know, one of
05:28the suggestions that the Air Force chief expressed was that we must involve in industry. And
05:37I think today, Indian industry has it in them to come out with the kind of technology
05:47we are looking for. Am I right? Yes, you see, the Prime Minister has made
05:53a huge thrust towards Atman Nirbharta. And I think that's a very well-planned program
06:02in the sense that he wants to see the growth of the Indian defence industry. It is something
06:09that we sorely require. We've always required it. And we've always had some sort of a defence
06:16industry going for us. But the question is, how much can they produce? What is the quality?
06:24And is it timely and available to the military? If you're looking for national security, remember
06:31that we have these huge long borders, 5,500 kilometres against the Chinese. We have 7,000
06:39kilometres of coastline. And then we have the Western Front of about 3,500 odd kilometres. So,
06:46you know, it's huge. Now, it's a question of covering the area. You need the numbers.
06:53You can say that I have multi-role players and multi-role platforms which can do the job of
07:01two, three of the earlier generation aircraft. That's fine. But you need to cover the distance.
07:08You need to cover the mileage and the border, which is so long. So, at the end of it all,
07:15you need the numbers. While we can't have sophisticated aeroplanes all across the full
07:22spectrum of the numbers that we require in the squadrons, we do need a certain
07:29number of differences that is the fourth generation, the 4.5, the fifth generation
07:38aircraft, which are now very much available in the market. So, if we are going to compete and
07:46we are going to be able to defend our borders and provide the security that the nation needs,
07:55we have to be up to date. And that is what is lacking at the moment in this country.
08:01In fact, you are reflecting what the chief also said. He also mentioned that it is of great
08:11concern that China has acquired a sixth generation, which is, you know, the J-20, J-35,
08:23which are getting ready for trials. We've never thought much of, from whatever we've heard of
08:32Chinese aviators. Well, we shouldn't comment on that. But the fact remains that technologically
08:42speaking, they are ahead and we cannot afford to lose the kind of edge that the Indian Air Force
08:47has. No, that's absolutely true. You can't have an asymmetric, technological asymmetry of such a
08:59large nature that you become vulnerable to the adversary. So, the fact of the matter is that
09:08notwithstanding the fact that I said that we can't have fifth generation across the full spectrum of
09:14the squadrons of fighters that we have, but you do need that amount to cover the adversary at
09:24the points of necessity. So, the need to be technologically equal with the adversary is
09:36very, very important in any sort of warfare, whether it be the army, the navy or the air force.
09:42And here we are not only a generation behind, we may shortly fall two generations behind,
09:50given that they are now, they have actually flown and displayed the sixth generation aircraft at
09:57their last air show. Yes. One also felt sad that all this is coming at, you know, it's sort of
10:11blowing up, this kind of information is blowing up at a time when the Aero India and every Aero
10:19India that has been held in India, it's been larger than the other, larger than the previous.
10:28And one knows that there is a tremendous desire by many countries to, you know, be part of it.
10:37And this is also a time when a lot of countries come looking for, you know, aircraft to buy from
10:47us or for air forces to interact with our air force. Yes. You see the credibility of
10:57a defence organisation is essentially on the quantum that you can manufacture and deliver.
11:06As well as what you can export. Now, you see, if you ask some of the people to say, you know,
11:15the export is adequate from HAL or from any of the other defence companies,
11:22they will say, you know, our export numbers have gone up from, you know, 35, 36,000 crores
11:29to 48,000 crores. Of course, it's gone up. But has it been critical items? Has it been
11:37the niche technology? No. So, what we need to do, your credibility to be able to produce
11:45and be a visible player in the international market is your export capability and the acceptance
11:56by the international players or the countries to say that, yes, here's a good item,
12:04defence item that I can buy and be proud to possess. The Tejas, when it was, you know,
12:13the first model in the earlier stage, it was not getting accepted. There was, you know,
12:23a lot of criticism about it from experienced aviators of Indian Air Force.
12:32Frankly speaking, the Tejas is a great aeroplane.
12:36No, it is a great aeroplane, but after a lot of working on it, am I right?
12:40In its class, it's really top of the line. But the problem with the Tejas is that
12:48at the time when it was conceived, the Tejas was at a generation that's in the 80s,
12:56early 80s. It was building an aircraft or had planned to build an aircraft, which was like the
13:03F-16 or the Mirage 2000, which was just coming into the market with us. So, the idea was to get
13:12more numbers of these as a replacement for the MiG-21. So, when you have large numbers of that
13:19high fourth generation going on to 4.5 and you have large numbers, which they promised that they
13:26would be able to give, I thought we would have had a really good Air Force at that time, provided
13:33the delivery was on schedule. Now, the delivery hasn't been on schedule and when the delivery is
13:40not on schedule, what happens? Technology is moving too fast for this sort of a thing.
13:45Delayed means denied, you know.
13:48Absolutely. So, technology delayed is technology denied. And you have fallen back in the race.
13:57And today you are trying to catch up and manufacture an aeroplane, 4.5 gen aircraft,
14:04when we moved on to the fifth generation and the 4.5 gen still hasn't really shown its face.
14:10So, no, we have to be very, very practical and very real about this. And that is the concern.
14:18It's a matter of concern. It's a matter of concern for the government and for the people of this
14:22country to understand that national security is at stake.
14:27Now, after all this, the defence ministry has announced a committee, which has been instituted
14:35headed by the defence secretary. We hope it includes also the chairman of the
14:42Defence Research and Development Organisation, DRDO. They better do something at good speed,
14:52because we are living in days where we've got adversaries who are the main adversary being
15:03China, which is modernising and stacking up the weaponry at a very fast pace.
15:14I hope this committee takes into the factor of accountability and to really make people
15:25accountable for what they're supposed to do and what they're supposed to deliver.
15:30As military men, we have been extremely accountable all our lives. We understand it
15:36only too well. Unfortunately, we don't see the same accountability in the industry that is
15:43supposed to support us. And that is where you feel hurt and you feel sad to see people when
15:53when they can't produce what they promised and nothing has been held to account.
16:00So something has to be done. It has to be higher and higher. I mean, it should be like the private
16:07sector. It shouldn't function the way the public sector is functioning and the fact that they get
16:15away without delivering the items in time. From the accountability point of view,
16:27there isn't any. It's a pity because I cannot but help recalling
16:37General Shankar Roy Choudhury. While he was serving, he was frank enough to say
16:48that look, we should be given whatever we need, when we need it. Because then if there is a war,
16:57you shouldn't start blaming the army for not being able to. He says we are one of the finest
17:08armies in the world. But any army needs, you know, similarly, I mean army needs army,
17:15navy or air force. You need your fighting equipment. Absolutely. I think our chiefs
17:25should stop saying that we will fight with what we have. Absolutely. You know, it's fine to say
17:31it. As military men, we will do it. We will follow the order. But is that the right thing? Is it the
17:37right thing for the morale of the troops? Is it the right thing for the population?
17:46Where is the safety factor? It doesn't exist.
17:50You, I think you are one of those fighter pilots who has flown. How many, if I may ask,
18:00how many different aircraft have you flown?
18:05Oh, I have flown a fair amount. In fact, I have commanded the MiG-21, the MiG-23U,
18:13MiG-25, MiG-27, MiG-29. I have flown the full range and I have commanded these units.
18:18Wow, there you are. And out of them, only one of them is now still in service?
18:30The MiG-29. Yes. That's right.
18:38Thank you very much. Is there anything you would like to add?
18:44No, thank you. I mean any other question, I will be glad to answer.
18:48No, I think we have covered most of it. All we can say is that we hope that these shortages
18:59are made good in very quick time. Whatever be required to be done, should be done. And I think
19:14Indian industry has, I think, having seen the way the last aircraft carrier was turned out,
19:27I think that's some consolation that they have reached, you know, up to a standard where
19:39they can give us what we need. Anyway, thank you very much.
19:46More some other time. All the best. Thank you all. Thank you very much.