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00:00The computer system post office spent an arm and a leg on is faulty. Oh my god
00:05It's just doubled right in front of my eyes. I haven't got that money the horizon system was working properly
00:11The losses must have been caused by mr. Castleton's own error
00:14How many other sub postmasters have you found six? We will go on the record
00:19I'm thinking set up a meeting send out invitations
00:22See if anyone turns up the post office told us you're the only one that was a lie from this
00:30Moment forwards none of us will be the only one ever again
00:54I just think he made a mistake Sam
00:57I
00:59Know but they said if I pleaded guilty, I could have the shop back. How is that ever gonna work? You'll be a convicted criminal
01:09Look I'm your husband and I have to read about this in the newspaper
01:14I was on my own in the interview. I thought I was doing the right thing jazz, please. You're an innocent woman
01:21You should have pleaded not guilty like we agreed
01:24Come on I'm gonna be late started without
01:45It was unbelievable the lowest day of my life
01:50Hi
01:54Sorry
01:55We're late. I've got to be lost. Sorry
01:59Are you is this we're all former sub postmasters. Come in. It's okay, please
02:07Find a seat
02:10I'm just saying
02:12Sam from Warsaw. Yeah. Well, we're all sharing our stories
02:20I don't know if you want to I
02:26Had no problems till they sent us a new horizon pinpad
02:31They just won't have it that there's something wrong with the thing
02:36They say I'm piggybacking
02:38Going into the till to pay out a pension with one hand and paying myself with the other
02:42I'm guessing they also said you were the only ones having these problems
02:46And I'm guessing they said the same to everyone else in this room, right I'm such a fool I believe them I believe them
02:53When they said just confess you took that five thousand pounds Sam and you'll be back in your shop tomorrow. You shouldn't have done that
02:59Use the new pin pad. It wasn't your fault. It wasn't it wasn't her fault
03:03actually, I
03:05pleaded guilty to
03:07So did I?
03:09wait you did I
03:12Can't believe it. I thought we were on our own, you know, not anymore
03:17I'm a mother. I don't want to go to prison. No, we're changing your plea
03:23Okay, not guilty. And this time I'm coming to court with you. Hey
03:29Now if you're thinking of going to court
03:32Just be careful
03:34well
03:35There are people here who've done time
03:39We've all lost our businesses and our savings
03:44The question is
03:46What are we going to do about it?
03:52Empty is neither use nor on
03:56Be nice at least he's taking the trouble to turn up
03:59Mrs. Hamilton, that's me James our bathrooms. Thank you for coming. My pleasure. Did you come in Joe's mum? Hello
04:09So one way or another we're all fighting back every way we can we're even thinking about suing the post office
04:16I'd like to see you try with no money. Well, good job talking to your MP costs. Absolutely nothing
04:22This is homemade. It looks delicious. Thank you. I will
04:25We thought maybe you could talk to the government or something
04:29Yes, indeed
04:31There are two other cases in my constituency alone. Wow, really? It's very odd, isn't it? I mean the post office is a national institution
04:40You think you could trust them to listen to their own people personally. Mr. Rob, that's not James, please
04:46I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them
04:48I'm going to ask around the house
04:51See how many members are hearing similar stories
04:54Make an approach to post office management at the highest level. I
04:59Think I feel a campaign coming on
05:07Oh, that's robbery
05:12I
05:15And so my client mrs. Kaur seeks permission to change her plea to not guilty
05:20this is because she had no solicitor with her during her interview under caution and
05:25Because there is also a technical issue which you may consider requires expert evidence
05:30Concerning a pinpad. I
05:33Can't see anything here. A pinpad was faulty quiet, please
05:37Very well, mrs. Kaur I vacate your plea. How do you now plead?
05:45Not guilty
05:47Is that him the so-called trade unionist he's got a bloody nerve Federation man a
05:53Federation man who calls out to the people
06:08I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry
06:11I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry
06:13Federation man a federation man who calls out of nowhere. How do we know we can trust him?
06:22We don't
06:28Michael hi Alan found us then. Yeah. Have you ever heard of Ferry Compton?
06:34All
06:39Right everyone should we make a start
06:42Should make a start
06:44Thanks
06:45right
06:47so
06:48Welcome to the second meeting of the justice for some postmasters Alliance now before we get on to our campaign update
06:57We have a guest who'd like permission to speak
07:04This is Michael Rudkin friends an executive officer of the National Federation for some postmasters
07:13Not anymore Federation, you know that the Federation sent me back my membership fee said he won't represent me
07:18They told me to get a good criminal lawyer
07:20And that was the last I heard of them of a so-called
07:23Union has been in bed with a post office for years. I can either leave by the way. I came in
07:28I can tell you my story
07:30Up to you pal
07:33And you think you're the little guys facing up to one powerful enemy you're wrong
07:41Post office don't make the computers to me
07:44Now they don't design the kit. They don't write the software. They don't run the network
07:51That's Fujitsu
07:54multinational corporation
07:56headquarters in Bracknell
07:58I've been there see what they can do
08:02Two years ago. I got myself an invitation to Fujitsu to sort out the issue with the foreign exchange stock control that we were all
08:08having problems with
08:11My career can see George Delph
08:1619th of August 2008
08:21Cheers, thanks, Mike. Mr. Rudkin George still hi. Hi. It's good to be here and you welcome to Fujitsu
08:29Cheers let's follow me
08:35Horizon is the largest IT system in Europe. We're very proud of that outside the military that is
08:42Cost a billion pounds we rolled out 40,000 terminals to your members
08:48So this accounts for all the James Bond stuff. Does it?
08:53All I'm expecting is it'll give me a bit of training I can pass on
08:59Right
09:00state-of-the-art everything
09:03That must be why a lot of my members have been complaining about your rubbish foreign exchange stock control
09:08We can help
09:09One of my members been losing money. Oh the bottom line me included
09:16Meet your friendly covert operations team I
09:20Get in there and this guy sits me down at a horizon terminal
09:25So easiest way to help is if I just show you how to adjust your stock control manually and I said to him
09:33Is this life sure look at the clock?
09:39So if I start by adjusting this from sterling to euros I said to him
09:45You're inside some sub post masters horizon and he doesn't know
09:51Said yeah
09:53Yeah, I am
09:57How else am I gonna show you how to do this
10:00And then right in front of my eyes. He starts changing the sub post masters figures
10:06Excuse me
10:08I've been telling my members for years. No one else has access to their branch accounts
10:14Okay, well I better put the figures back the way they were then or they won't balance tonight
10:23I
10:32Just a gentleman, you know what this means
10:35It means I can sneak in behind your back change your figures poker off and leave with no trace
10:43Remote access
10:45Well, it makes sense. It's how they send updates and bug fixes. Oh, no, no the helpline
10:51They said that they said that was impossible. They said that the branch accounts were totally secure. That's what he told me. They lied
10:58But if they're getting into our accounts and messing about in there
11:03Then it's a bit rich for them to claim that we have a hundred percent responsibility when money goes missing exactly
11:10So I drive home from Fujitsu
11:14The next morning I wake up and
11:18And my wife is stood at the foot of our bed and
11:23There's an auditor beside her
11:29Your post office is now forty four thousand pounds in deficit says he
11:39Coincidence
11:41Revenge my wife ran the post office when I was away on Federation business. So although I was the supposed muster
11:50My poor wife
11:54Is now a convicted criminal
12:00You're welcome
12:02Oh
12:10Wait
12:13Mr. Redkid, thank you
12:16Thank you
12:32So
12:35They punished him
12:38They punished him for standing up to him
12:42What they did to me?
12:44That they knew I had to fight him, but they knew I didn't stand a chance
12:48They just did it to teach me a lesson to teach everyone in this room a lesson
12:53That's what we're up against. That is what we're up against
13:02You
13:07The post office are still investigating
13:10So it's gonna take a bit longer than we thought as it's now 36 charges
13:15How many 36 charges? No, no. No, that's totally wrong. I've got the indictment right here jazz
13:21It's definitely now 36 charges, but
13:25It was 19. Where have all these new ones come from?
13:29So, I don't know I don't remember
13:33And what about this a shortfall? It's now 11,000. That's that's more than doubled
13:39You're selling everyone stamps with a picture of the Queen on them. We love the Queen, don't we?
13:45Is she all right? Yeah. Yeah, just all these delays that doing both our heads in
13:51I
13:55Think we should get a medical report when cases go on and on like this. It can be hard for the defendant
14:03She's fine
14:10I'll just gonna see if they're ready for us
14:21Everyone's eyes are on me. It's okay
14:43Some can you get the phone?
14:45Oh
14:48Hello, oh, it's Joe gosh you had me worried there. I'm just checking in on you. Are you okay?
14:58I'm up and down
15:00Are you getting out at all? Oh
15:03I can't go out
15:05Not to the good water not even to the supermarket. I
15:09See people I know sometimes they look surprised to see me and I wonder
15:15Do they think I've gone to prison already? Oh
15:18Sam's
15:20If I just had the money for a stupid train ticket, I
15:24Wouldn't be much fun for you Joe. Oh
15:26God Sam, what is it?
15:30It's okay. It's okay. I'm alright Joe
15:32It's just a postman
15:38Every time the door goes I think it's them come to get me
15:46I
15:54Know I do this was happening to other people. I thought I was the only one
15:57Though nights I was just sobbing didn't know what to do how to get out this mess
16:02Sounds like it was very traumatic for you. Well, it's not just me that it's traumatic for I just think that the post office
16:08Needs to investigate this there's just got to be something else going on because it can't be happening to this many people
16:16Joe was great. She's a natural. Hmm. Yeah, but who's listening?
16:22How concerned are you about these allegations against the post office? I'm very concerned about this
16:27Cases seem to be cropping up all over the country and who knew it or EMP could be so nice
16:31I think pretty hard-nosed in the way. They've taken the case. The trouble is nobody watches local news
16:39And I think their bosses need to think again and be more sympathetic
17:01You
17:10Be ready
17:12there are a
17:14tiny number of
17:16Ex-sub postmasters who appear to be making distinct allegations with respect to the operation of the horizon system
17:22But in two of the cases the individuals have in the past pleaded guilty to false accounting. I
17:28Have written back to the member of Parliament making clear that post office limited does not accept any of the
17:36Allegations that are being made and will robustly defend its position if any civil action is mounted against it
17:46Freedom of information
17:48Just when you think you've cracked it they come up with a new trick to keep us in the dark
17:52Listen to this
17:53You're only allowed a question to ask a question that will take one person less than 18 hours to research
18:01I mean what?
18:05What do you think hey
18:12Trying to have a life here Alan
18:23I
18:26Just want to be able to
18:28Take on holiday again. She's on
18:32the proper
18:33holiday abroad
18:36not just camping
18:40And still half of Snowdonia waiting to be client a
18:44A
18:49The post office has taken all our money
18:53Be my knees are way too old for Snowden now
18:58And see you can't possibly go on holiday too busy campaigning morning noon and night
19:07This is all taking too long
19:09I
19:30Okay, sorry
19:39That's quantum
19:43Sir
19:45Sam what what you
19:48Some
19:51It's okay, Sam, what are you doing? Why'd you turn this, huh?
19:55Some look at me what I
20:01Need an ambulance, please. It's a 45 foul field road. Also WS 2 9 W BB for Bravo
20:09I
20:31Can you stop staring us just mind your own business
20:34Okay
20:41What's the next one
20:44Candy okay. See if you can find it
20:47He's doing well. Yeah, we'll be doing the spelling bee soon
20:51Hey
20:55Hello, mr. Singh
20:58Yeah, can I have a word?
21:01Yeah
21:02Two minutes and then burgers, okay
21:09Hey, how are you doing? I want to stress you'll be sedated
21:13She won't feel anything easy
21:15She had a lot of bad press at one point
21:17But we continue to find it very useful in giving relief to patients a severely depressed a sermon
21:26And nothing else we've tried is worked so
21:28Just
21:32Don't go home and Google it mr. Singh
21:38We'll talk more later
21:54Like you're not gonna Google it
21:59But you know the worst thing Joe
22:04If I don't let her carry on pleading guilty like she wanted to in the first place
22:11Yeah, she she might have gone to prison but
22:15She'd be up by now Oh Jess my boy would have a mother
22:24And Sam would be free
22:29You
22:31You
22:58The problem is relatively very small very few complaints
23:02But this is a very serious matter for the post office whose business rests on our reputation for being trustworthy
23:10We all represent
23:12Constituents who tell us that your helpline is of little value that the training you offer is minimal
23:19Angela is our head of network services. Thank you
23:24Well, the helpline and support are there now whether staff take it up or not
23:31That's another matter mrs. Reynolds is the post office saying that horizon is 100%
23:38Foolproof because that will make it the first perfect software system ever implemented by government
23:45The system is robust
23:47Gentlemen, we have nothing to hide
23:50Indeed, we're ready to mount and fund an independent review
23:54Well, that's marvelous and I'm sure mr. Bates and the justice for subpost monsters Alliance will be thrilled to get involved with that
24:14Bet you've missed me Susan
24:16How is life in the sleepy old post office?
24:18Sleepy? I wish
24:20High finance misses you, kid
24:22I'm a proud public servant now
24:24Well, I'd wager it's not half as much fun as your old life
24:26Chasing down villains and fraudsters with me
24:28Susan
24:30Is that what we're doing here?
24:32I don't know
24:34That's why I hired you
24:36Ah
24:38Angela Vandenbogard is head of network services
24:40Bob Rutherford from Second Sight
24:42Angela, nice to meet you
24:44How are you?
24:46I'm fine, thank you
24:48Angela Vandenbogard is head of network services
24:50Bob Rutherford from Second Sight
24:52Angela, nice to meet you
24:54Here to help
24:56We've pulled a dozen files for you to look at
24:58All the cases the MPs have been pushing
25:00Anything else you want, though, we can provide
25:02Accounts, procedures, backgrounds
25:04I'll draw up a list
25:06And I'd like to visit
25:08Fujitsu in Bracknell
25:10No problem
25:12Oh
25:14Are you not staying?
25:16You're old, Bob
25:18I imagine you're itching to get on the road
25:20Thank you all
25:22Alan
25:24You can't go meet him on your own
25:26Because how will you know what to ask this investigator?
25:28And because she's my neighbour
25:30And she's really nice
25:32And she wants to help
25:34Kaylin L
25:36Passmaster and livery man
25:38Kaylin L, forensic accountant
25:40Alan, bite your hand off
25:42Alan
25:46Alan Bates
25:50Kaylin L
25:52Passmaster and livery man of the Worshipful Company of Arbitrators
25:54You've been looking me up
25:56And
25:58Board of the Inland Revenues
26:00Former chief prosecuting and investigating accountant
26:02Now that was a fun job
26:04Shall we?
26:06May I underline
26:08That although the post office
26:10Has agreed to fund this independent investigation
26:12Mr Rutherford's organisation
26:14Second Sight
26:16Will be working for us, the MPs
26:18And therefore indirectly
26:20For you
26:22Justice for Sub Postmasters Alliance
26:24So
26:26Alan, Kay
26:28What would you like to know?
26:30Well I'd like to know exactly
26:32What makes you think you're qualified to do this job
26:34Well I'm a forensic accountant
26:36Of many years experience
26:38I don't doubt your paper qualifications
26:40Mr Rutherford
26:42I have them here in front of me
26:44But I see nothing to persuade me
26:46That Second Sight is
26:48Remotely capable of producing
26:50A truly independent report
26:52One that's ready to bite the hand
26:54That feeds you
26:56Bob Rutherford is a member of the Association of Certified Fraud Examiners
26:58He has led hundreds of investigations
27:00All over the world
27:02Into banking fraud, corruption
27:04Rogue traders, subprime mortgages
27:06Doesn't answer my question
27:08How can we be sure you will investigate
27:10Fairly and independently?
27:12Because the people who suggested me
27:14Know me of old
27:16And they want to hire me
27:18Because they know what I like to do best
27:20Which is to clear
27:22Innocent people who look guilty
27:24I still don't see how
27:26We can trust him when he's taking post
27:28Off his money
27:30Well you can't pay him
27:32Can't pay you either
27:34I'll help in my spare time
27:36What I really need is lawyers who work for nothing
27:38One day
27:40You'll find your precious lawyers
27:42And we'll get the scandal into court
27:44But we'll need evidence
27:46Which mortals like us haven't a hope of getting our hands on
27:48But Bob's outfit
27:50Second Sight
27:52They'll have access to
27:54Seven years of raw data
27:56This Bob
27:58He can't just look at
28:00Individual cases though
28:02He has to look at Horizon as a whole
28:04As a system
28:06I might take it you're happy
28:08To support his investigation
28:10Being as it's the only one we've got
28:22When I first came to the post office
28:24They were introducing
28:26Chip and pin
28:28And it never worked properly
28:30The base unit
28:32The Horizon computer
28:34Whatever you call it
28:36The thing that sits under the counter
28:38I thought of it as like an alien thing
28:42Sometimes engineers would come from Fujitsu
28:44With their clever badges on
28:46And I never had any idea what they were doing
28:54This is probably a really stupid question Bob
28:58There are no such things as stupid questions
29:00Only stupid answers
29:05That £36,000
29:07I'm supposed to have lost
29:10Where did it go?
29:12I haven't got it
29:14So who has?
29:18I don't know
29:20But I'm going to find out
29:34It's bed and breakfast now
29:38We're private people Bob
29:40This was our family home
29:44But the post office gave us no option
29:46No other way of making a living
29:50Thank you
29:52Cheers love
29:58My wife has had it so much harder than me
30:04Susan was in charge
30:06While I was away on Federation business
30:10She never told me so I had no idea she was in trouble
30:14Even though at least half my work in Federation
30:16Was Horizon related by then
30:20I said to her
30:22You've ruined my fucking career
30:26You've destroyed our business
30:30Mr Rudkin please don't feel obliged to
30:32I said
30:34I said I'd divorce her
30:42They punished my wife
30:44Who never stole a penny piece
30:48Just because I got inside Bridgerton and saw something I shouldn't have
30:58I think what I had was
31:00A computer bug
31:02I think it was called a calendar square bug
31:06I can't be sure
31:08But it was real
31:10It was real
31:12Other people had it
31:14I tried to tell the court
31:16That
31:18I just kept sort of saying it wrong
31:22And the more I tried the more
31:26I can't explain it
31:30It was like
31:34I was on the edge of
31:36A great
31:38Dark hole
31:42I was
31:44Just falling into it
31:46The thing is
31:48I knew
31:50That they were lying
31:52And I knew I was telling the truth
31:54I just thought
31:56This is British justice
31:58That's all I've got to do
32:00Is tell the truth
32:02But
32:06Sorry
32:08Don't let me upset you
32:10I was just trying to tell you
32:14It's just the more of you people I meet
32:16The less I know
32:18How you're all still standing
32:20Thank you
32:28Susan
32:30Am I expecting you today
32:32We need to speak
32:34Now
32:36Always good to see an old friend
32:38But I do have a diary
32:40Not today you don't
32:42Lee Castleton
32:44You know the one you hounded
32:46All the way to the Royal Courts of Justice
32:48You have humiliated him
32:50You have bankrupted him
32:52And I don't get it
32:54Yes
32:56I don't know why we did that
32:58Well let me suggest two reasons
33:00One you're stupid
33:02Or two you want to rub his nose in the dirt
33:04Use him to frighten off everyone else
33:06I wasn't even here then
33:08Oh please
33:10What is wrong with you people
33:12Are we ever to see the pin pad
33:14That Mrs Corr alleges was responsible for her shortfalls
33:16Can you confirm that Post Office Limited
33:18Is unable to produce the pin pad in question
33:20Because
33:22I'm told it was sent away for repair
33:24And has been reprogrammed
33:26So it was faulty
33:28In those circumstances
33:30Your honour
33:32The prosecution offers no evidence
33:34This matter has dragged on
33:36For three years
33:38I direct that a not guilty
33:40Verdict be entered on all
33:4236 counts on the indictment
33:44Mrs Corr
33:46You're free to leave
33:50Court rise
34:02Hey
34:04See you were right
34:06It was faulty
34:08Sam three years of our lives was over now
34:10No
34:12If you put another picture in the paper
34:14Will they to say I'm innocent
34:18Come on
34:22We're making progress
34:24Now the investigation is properly
34:26Up and running
34:28I just thought enough go betweens
34:30What a good idea to bring you two together
34:32I do hope it's been useful
34:34For both of you
34:36Terrific idea thank you James
34:38And Alan I do hope you'll take away from this
34:40Your understanding that post office is as fully
34:42Committed as you are
34:44To resolving this situation
34:46Thank you
34:50And um
34:52If there's anything else
34:54Uh no I
34:56Actually
34:58Why are you only looking at 12 cases
35:02Well they are the 12 cases put forward
35:04By members of parliament
35:06All the cases where we are alert
35:08To the possibility of miscarriage of justice
35:10There are a lot more though
35:12Paula victims who were never
35:14Charged with any criminal
35:16Offence but perhaps your
35:18People haven't told you about that
35:20About all the destitution
35:22People sleeping in their cars
35:24Losing their house their health
35:26Surely you'd like to hear from
35:28Them too
35:30Is
35:32That
35:34Your
35:36Throwaway exit line
35:38I was just thinking
35:40You know if you knew the full
35:42Story you wouldn't want that on your conscience
35:44So well
35:46Shall I suggest a few
35:48Names
35:52Yes
35:54Good idea
35:56These are what I have here
36:00Thank you
36:08Well good to hear from you
36:10Hi there the day you went to
36:12Fujitsu are you sure
36:14It was the 19th of August
36:162008 Yeah
36:18Never forget that last day of our old life
36:20Michael you're not down as a visitor
36:22On their security locks
36:24Post office are denying
36:26That your visit ever happened
36:28Can you prove it
36:32Michael can
36:34You prove you were there
36:36But
36:38It's four years ago
36:40I don't work for the post office anymore
36:58Look at your new best friend
37:00Pretending she can do a proper job
37:02Lovely to be here
37:04Thank you
37:06How often do you get to visit a place like this
37:08Probably once a month if I
37:10Can
37:12I mean you're the big boss
37:14No
37:16This is the post office I get
37:18Treated the same as everybody else and they tell me
37:20How it is and what's it like
37:22Being the chief executive of a
37:24Major company
37:26You can tell by the smile on my face
37:28That it's great
37:30Retail is detailed
37:32Shut up shut up you silly cow
37:34Come on get your breakfast
37:42I shall present evidence
37:44To show that the post office has made
37:46Failures in support
37:48Investigation training and I found
37:50Clear evidence of two bugs
37:52Two
37:5447 cases
37:5647
37:58And this draft report of yours only mentions three
38:00Where's Michael Rutkin
38:02Who can prove they're lying about remote access
38:04He can't prove it actually
38:06Well members of parliament would certainly like to see
38:08More individual cases
38:10The point is not individual cases
38:12The point is
38:14Total systemic failure
38:16Which you don't mention
38:18We haven't found hard evidence of that
38:20Well what would you call the endless
38:22Pin pad anomalies
38:24Shortfalls doubling before people's eyes
38:26And overnight so called corrections
38:28Well there were 68,000
38:30Users processing 6 million
38:32Transactions a day
38:34Well this is just the gospel according to the post office
38:36For it to be systemic that would have to mean
38:38That the whole network was affected
38:40And it just isn't
38:42What about the way they abuse their power
38:44And prosecute people without investigating properly
38:46And then
38:48Terminate them on three months notice
38:50Walk away with their life savings
38:52Is that not a systemic failure
38:54We all agreed from the beginning
38:56That the report should be accurate
38:58And evidence based
39:00The post office has left a trail of destruction
39:02Ever since the day that Horizon was introduced
39:04And we're just sitting around chatting about it
39:06While they're still ruining lives
39:08Systemically
39:12Ah
39:14I agree to this
39:16I must not be mad
39:18How long have you been there Bonnets
39:20I was born in Liverpool
39:22He's an accountant Alan
39:24He's naturally cautious
39:26Cautious like you
39:28I can be cautious
39:30It wasn't me in there banging the table
39:32I've never seen you angry before
39:34All that grandstanding you mean
39:36I learnt that from UK
39:38I don't get angry
39:40I just get frustrated
39:42The second sight
39:44Are going to have to come up with something better than this
39:48Bob
40:00Bob how's it going
40:02Michael good
40:04Any luck
40:06It's been a long time
40:08A lot of water under the bridge
40:10Yeah okay
40:12I understand
40:14But stay attached
40:18Okay
40:30Oh my fucking good god
40:34Michael thank you
40:36Thank you so much
40:44So Bob
40:46In August 2008
40:48The basement of Fujitsu's building in Bracknell
40:50Did contain a horizon test environment
40:52Note
40:54A test environment
40:56And that's what we believe
40:58Your supposed master Mr. Redkin saw
41:00He got the wrong end of the stick
41:02The test environment
41:04Wasn't physically connected to the live
41:06Horizon system so
41:08It wasn't possible for the transactions
41:10He thought he saw to be real
41:12Got it
41:14Thank you
41:16That's cleared that up
41:18Good
41:22See you out
41:24Thank you for joining me
41:26By conference call
41:28I'm sorry for the short notice
41:30In keeping the board updated
41:32The horizon review interim report
41:34Will be presented to MPs in
41:36One weeks time
41:38The report has found no
41:40Systemic issues with the horizon
41:42Computer system
41:44But I am concerned that the
41:46Report from the independent forensic
41:48Accountant
41:50Is not as factual as expected
41:52And could lead
41:54To loose language
42:04What are you poacher turned gamekeeper
42:06This report
42:08Of yours turns out to be not
42:10Half bad considering
42:12Saint praise
42:14I like it
42:16I just hope it makes a difference
42:18What got Michael
42:20Redkin into the final version
42:22An email inviting him to
42:24Bracknell copied the
42:26Seven named post office executive
42:28Hold on
42:30First they say he wasn't there
42:32Then they say he was there but what
42:34His glasses were broken
42:36I wonder if they even know
42:38They're talking bollocks
42:40Welcome on board Bob
42:42They still say that there's no
42:44Remote access into your accounts
42:46I'm sorry but I don't
42:48Think I'm going to be able to prove that
42:50They're wrong and that you're right on this one
42:52But Alan there are things
42:54Documents that I found
42:56In the post office files
42:58Beyond belief
43:00Going to tell me more
43:02Someone else I need to tell first
43:06Good morning Mr. Bob
43:08There he is
43:10There he is
43:12Let's say good morning
43:14We're babysitting in sunshine
43:16Ain't he gorgeous
43:18I was hoping you'd be sitting somewhere quiet
43:20Yeah I can do that
43:22Or I can put the kettle on
43:24Me and Joshua will put the kettle on
43:30Your investigator Ryan Fleming
43:32The toad
43:34Did you ever see his report about you
43:38No
43:4217th of May 2006
43:44He recorded that he had analysed
43:46Your Horizon accounts
43:48And was unable to find any
43:50Evidence of theft
43:52I pleaded guilty to false
43:54Counting instead
43:56No evidence means
43:58They had no right to charge you
44:00With theft and therefore
44:02No right to plea bargain you down
44:04To false accounting
44:06Joe no evidence means
44:08They had no right to take you to
44:10Court at all
44:24Everything I've gone through
44:28Everything I've lost
44:33Ten years
44:36Of heartache
44:38And sleepless nights
44:40And always skin
44:46They destroyed our whole life
44:48For a lie
44:54What kind of people are they
44:57Huh
44:59The second site report
45:01Presented to MPs in Westminster today
45:03Was expected to include criticism
45:05Of the Horizon computer system
45:07And of the senior management of the post office
45:09But while the report does raise concerns
45:11About unreliable hardware and poor training
45:13A post office spokesman
45:15Said the investigation clearly shows
45:17Its Horizon system as a whole
45:19Is operating as it should
45:21MPs praised the post office
45:23For the way they dealt with these difficult issues
45:26Alan Bates
45:40Alan Bates
45:42Alan it's Paula Vennells
45:48Paula
45:52Chucky
45:54Well I was thinking
45:58Where do we go from here
46:02Well erm
46:04I've been thinking about that too
46:06Well great
46:08Should the two of us
46:10Try and find a way forward
46:12If you want something done properly
46:14Do it yourself
46:16Exactly
46:20Well
46:22How can I help
46:52How can I help