#Khabar #ConstitutionalAmendment #PMLNGovt #PMShehbazSharif #FazalUrRehman #ImranKhan #AsifZardari #QaziFaezIsa #AsimMunir #NationalAssembly #MurtazaWahab #karachi #PPP #MayorKarachi
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Aniqa Nisar
Guests:
- Murtaza Wahab (Karachi Mayor)
- Barrister Muhammad Ahmad Pansota (Lawyer)
- Yahya Farid Khwaja (Lawyer)
- Mumtaz Zahra Baloch (Ambassador)
'Constitutional Package' - Will Bilawal be able to persuade Maulana Fazlur Rehman?
" Jahan Bhi Jata Hon Karachi Ka Muqadma Zaroor Larta Hon," Murtaza Wahab
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
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ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Aniqa Nisar
Guests:
- Murtaza Wahab (Karachi Mayor)
- Barrister Muhammad Ahmad Pansota (Lawyer)
- Yahya Farid Khwaja (Lawyer)
- Mumtaz Zahra Baloch (Ambassador)
'Constitutional Package' - Will Bilawal be able to persuade Maulana Fazlur Rehman?
" Jahan Bhi Jata Hon Karachi Ka Muqadma Zaroor Larta Hon," Murtaza Wahab
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
Category
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NewsTranscript
00:00Bismillah-e-Rahman-e-Rahim, with the program Khabar Lahariya, I am Aneeka Nisar.
00:17Ladies and gentlemen, there is no need to admit that Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib is so important
00:22in this political process.
00:24If there is an Arya Par, it will be with Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman's Jamaat.
00:27Otherwise, the government will remain stuck in Alam-e-Barzakh.
00:31The situation is such that Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib is meeting a lot of people these days.
00:36Today, he was with Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf in a Zohrana.
00:39On the other hand, Mohsin Naqvi came to meet Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib.
00:43The importance of Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib was acknowledged from here,
00:48where Sadr Zardari and Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif went to his house.
00:53And of course, the talks were about the constitutional amendment.
00:55But despite that, what happened on Sunday night, we all saw.
00:58Bilal-ul-Butto Sardari also admitted yesterday that Maulana sahib was taken in confidence.
01:04Without that, there can be no constitutional amendment in any way.
01:10Without Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib's consensus, it is impossible to pass this constitutional amendment.
01:15The meeting I had the night before with Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib,
01:20in that, Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib's objection to the government's wishes,
01:25which were so many, regarding the constitutional amendment, were quite a lot.
01:29Pakistan People's Party and Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib's meeting with the JUI,
01:34that the original draft of the Pakistan People's Party that we have,
01:39regarding the constitutional amendment, regarding the Constitutional Court,
01:42we will put that in front of the JUI.
01:45And the JUI is also working on its own draft.
01:50Let's see what happens next.
01:53Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman sahib is following this rule.
01:57At this time, we can clearly see that Maulana sahib has rejected the constitutional amendment of the government.
02:04But which constitutional amendment will come next?
02:06Bilal-ul-Butto Sardari said that the People's Party and Maulana sahib's constitutional amendment will be seen.
02:10But Maulana sahib has also confirmed today that that constitutional amendment is out.
02:15Look, at this time, we have accepted their constitutional amendment completely.
02:19In fact, to say that we have no constitutional amendment,
02:23then what was provided?
02:25Someone was provided, someone was not provided.
02:28What was this game?
02:29But whatever was handed over to us and we have studied it,
02:35so by studying it, we were not able to accept it in any way, in any way.
02:42This could have been a big betrayal of the nation if we had supported it.
02:50Yesterday, Rana Sanawullah sahib admitted that the number game is not complete.
02:56Of course, Maulana sahib will not be with us.
02:58So how will the number game be completed?
03:00We do not have a complete number.
03:02If the number is complete, it will be completed.
03:04Is the number complete now?
03:05No, it is not complete at the moment.
03:07If it was complete, then the amendment would have been made.
03:09But the number is not complete.
03:11And to complete the number, the process of consultation is going on.
03:16On one hand, these matters are being tried to complete the number.
03:19Talks are being held, meetings are being held.
03:21On one hand, Pakistan calls Maulana sahib for justice,
03:23on the other hand, the government calls him.
03:25But no matter is being decided, it is not visible yet.
03:28Yesterday, Rana Sanawullah sahib said in our program that
03:31in the beginning of October, these matters will probably be resolved.
03:35But Pakistan Tariq-e-Insaf has raised a different question.
03:39He said that Pakistan does not expect the Muslim League.
03:42But Ali Muhammad Khan sahib did not expect the Pakistan People's Party's Bilawal Bhutto
03:46to support this amendment in any way.
03:50He also demanded that Imran Khan sahib be thrown out of jail.
03:55There was no expectation from the Muslim League.
03:57But the role of the People's Party is a big question mark in this.
04:00Especially Bilawal sahib, who claims that his grandfather made the constitution.
04:05And his grandson was occupying that constitution in the darkness of the night.
04:09Do you expect me to talk to you about the constitutional amendments?
04:13First bring our leader out.
04:15What is the constitutional amendment for which you have to pick up the members of the opposition benches and their women?
04:23The information minister, while answering this complaint,
04:26made it very clear that Pakistan Tariq-e-Insaf, which will not get NRO,
04:29should try as much as possible.
04:31But he also said that this constitutional amendment is not for our personal issues.
04:35This is to separate the Constitutional Court and the other courts,
04:38which is in the interest of the common citizen of Pakistan.
04:43The purpose was only that the constitutional courts should be separated
04:46so that the constitutional cases can be dealt separately.
04:48And the cases of the Pakistani citizens can be decided on time.
04:52And Ali Muhammad Khan sahib was saying that our leader should be thrown out.
04:55Then we will talk about the constitutional amendment.
04:57I want to tell you that this is not going to get NRO.
05:00So your desire for NRO is old.
05:02Don't use it as a bargaining chip.
05:04And this framework of consultation is being expanded.
05:07Our engagement with Maulana is still going on.
05:11After this, one thing is certain that somehow,
05:14whatever the matter is, if it goes beyond a time limit,
05:19then the aim and objective of the government may not be able to be fulfilled.
05:23The rest of the allegations are being made that it is being done for a personal personality.
05:28But Bilawal Bhutto Zardari sahib also announced yesterday that
05:31Chief Justice is Justice Mansoori.
05:59Now we will talk about this.
06:01The leader of the Pakistan People's Party, Murtaza Wahab is with us,
06:04who is also the mayor of Karachi.
06:05And recently, the translation of the statement of the chairman of the Pakistan People's Party, Bilawal Bhutto Zardari sahib has also been published.
06:11Thank you very much, Mr. Murtaza Wahab.
06:13You joined us.
06:14Mr. Murtaza Wahab, first tell me, you had a very important pen.
06:17You are also the mayor of Karachi.
06:19Now you are also present in these constitutional cases.
06:22You are also present in Islamabad and Karachi.
06:24What is going on over here?
06:26First tell me this.
06:28In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
06:30I am a member of the Pakistan People's Party.
06:33I am an employee of the Pakistan People's Party.
06:35I am a lawyer by profession.
06:37I have studied law.
06:38So naturally, in different capacities, I also support the party.
06:43I am also a part of the party's consultation process.
06:48I was present in Islamabad with reference to a meeting.
06:52And then this discussion also came.
06:55The leadership of the Pakistan People's Party also discussed with me.
06:58They also got input from me.
06:59That is why I was present there with reference to the legal matters.
07:04Okay.
07:05You are a lawyer by profession.
07:06You are absolutely right.
07:08The matter is also legal and legal.
07:09You have also corrected this.
07:11But the responsibility you have as the mayor of Karachi is also very big.
07:14And it is not that all the matters of Karachi have been solved.
07:17So diverting your attention will not be unfair to Karachi, Mr. Murtaza Wahab?
07:23Time will tell whether it will be unfair or not.
07:27At times, you have to go to Islamabad in many cases.
07:31There are many projects of Karachi in which you need the help of the federal government.
07:36And I was also telling you off the record.
07:38I will say it again on record.
07:40When I met the Prime Minister, I mentioned Karachi's projects.
07:45How K4 needs to be expedited.
07:48How people in Karachi need to improve their gas issues.
07:51And how the overall development portfolio of the federal government in Karachi needs to be improved.
07:58So the case of Karachi is in my heart and in my tongue.
08:01And wherever I go, I fight the case of Karachi.
08:04So basically you came to meet the Prime Minister.
08:08You came to talk about the rights of Karachi.
08:10The promises of the federal government of the past.
08:12You wanted them to be fulfilled.
08:14And that is why you came.
08:16By chance, this situation was going on and you were called for a legal meeting.
08:19Is that correct?
08:21I came to meet my leadership, to meet Mr. Bilawal.
08:25The Prime Minister also went to meet him.
08:28Because there are many of our issues that pertain to Islamabad that we cannot solve in Karachi.
08:34And we take our leadership on board.
08:37How we need their help on a loyal level in Parliament.
08:41So that you can streamline those matters and solve them.
08:45Mr. Bilawal Bhutto, Mr. Zardari has said this while speaking yesterday.
08:49That there were some cases in which there were some give and take in this conversation.
08:57And in the situation of some take, were there any cases of Karachi as well?
09:01Mr. Murtaza Wahab.
09:06Look, the People's Party does issue-based politics.
09:10The Pakistan People's Party stands with the Republic, with the constitution, with the Parliament.
09:15And our perspective is how you can serve people.
09:20How you can solve people's problems.
09:23We don't believe in bargaining.
09:25We believe that the source of power is the people.
09:28And to serve the people, the role that any minister needs to play,
09:33Pakistan People's Party does that and so does Mr. Bilawal.
09:36In the situation of give and take, the Pakistan People's Party doesn't believe.
09:41No, but he said that in this conversation, the things that we wanted to get done, we got done.
09:46So please shed some light on that, Mr. Murtaza Wahab.
09:48What were the things that were ultimately brought to the table and given?
09:54Give and take might not be the correct word.
09:56Call it negotiation.
09:59I will explain it to you.
10:01In 2006, this principle of the Pakistan People's Party was written in the Charter of Democracy.
10:08For a long time, the People's Party thought that there should be constitutional courts in Pakistan.
10:14There should be a fair and just court.
10:16And when the martyr, Respected Benazir Bhutto, in 2006, probably in the month of March,
10:21signed the Charter of Democracy with Mian Nawaz Sharif,
10:25at that time, this thing was closed.
10:28That these two political parties will play their role in the constitution of a fair and just court.
10:35And later on, Imran Khan also signed this document.
10:41Then in 2024, when Mr. Bilawal issued his election manifesto,
10:47in that election manifesto, it is categorically mentioned that
10:51Pakistan People's Party believes in establishing Federal Constitutional Courts or Constitutional Courts.
10:58And it would like to establish it, if it gets this opportunity.
11:02So, what Mr. Bilawal is saying, conveys the point that
11:05our perspective from the era of Bibi Sahiba has been that
11:08in this country, the political matters, the big, big constitutional matters,
11:14which do not pertain to a common man,
11:16at times, they take away the authority.
11:19That is, if in the Supreme Court, a legal matter is going on,
11:22then your dispute, or someone's military case,
11:26someone's bail case, someone's commercial corporate dispute,
11:30someone's property dispute, then that case is not heard.
11:35You are talking about the Charter of Democracy that was signed on 14th May.
11:39I understand what you are saying.
11:41But this thing was already added by the government.
11:44There were 56 points in it.
11:47Only 53 out of 56 were left.
11:49So, this point was already added, that there should be such a court,
11:53which is a constitutional court.
11:55Anika, I have not seen any final draft,
11:58which is circulating in the media as well.
12:00I do not know whether it is correct or not.
12:02As a translator of People's Party, as a worker of People's Party,
12:07I can tell you the perspective of People's Party.
12:09People's Party thinks that there should be a constitutional court in this country,
12:14so that the important constitutional matters can be solved by the court.
12:18And the remaining cases, which pertain to a common man,
12:23can be solved by Sessions Court, Civil Court, High Court, Supreme Court,
12:28so that people can get cheap, immediate and standard justice.
12:33And the important constitutional matters can also be solved.
12:36We will come to the important constitutional matters and cheap justice,
12:39but one thing is very surprising for me, Mr. Murtaza.
12:41You just said that you have not seen the draft.
12:43Now, it is not being called a draft, by the way.
12:45Yesterday, Mr. Rana Sanaullah has named it as a working paper in our program.
12:49Because it was not an official thing, which was approved by the cabinet.
12:52So, it was called a working paper.
12:53Now, you also did not see the working paper.
12:55Then, when Maulana Ghafoor Haidari came and spoke to the press,
13:00he also said that he also did not see the working paper.
13:02But the interesting thing is that this was the news of ARY News.
13:06And it is true that the working paper, which was called a draft by Bilawal Bhutto Zardari,
13:12was also with Bilawal Bhutto Zardari and Maulana Ghafoor Haidari.
13:16So, why did the leadership not share the working paper with those people,
13:20who were involved in the meetings and discussions?
13:28I am requesting you that in the discussions, you were engaging on the point of view.
13:35The working paper is approved by the cabinet.
13:38After that, it had to be included in the parliamentary committee.
13:41Then, it would have become a competition, right, Mr. Murtaza?
13:43To the best of my knowledge, listen to me.
13:46To the best of my knowledge, the perspective of the Wafaaqi government
13:50that whether it was approved by the cabinet or not,
13:52to the best of my knowledge, it was not approved.
13:55In the parliamentary committee, there was a discussion on broad-based ideas.
13:59In this, there was a discussion on the constitution.
14:02And the different political leaders shared their perspectives.
14:06And when Bilawal met Maulana Fazl-ur-Rehman,
14:10and when he met the Prime Minister,
14:13both of them conveyed their point of view that
14:16yes, there should be a constitution in this country.
14:20How will that constitution be constituted?
14:23What will be its principles?
14:26Naturally, it needs to be deliberated and agreed upon with consensus.
14:30But conceptually, the People's Party agrees that
14:33yes, there should be constitutional courts in this country.
14:36Sir, where did you have to keep it, Mr. Murtaza Wahab?
14:39Because till that night, till Sunday night,
14:42we were expecting that the constitutional amendment has just been passed.
14:45The constitutional amendment has just been passed and things are going to be streamlined.
14:48The burden of the government has become heavy.
14:50The burden of its allies has become heavy.
14:52Where did the problem come from?
14:55Again, what you were expecting,
14:58all these conspiracies were going on,
15:01but naturally, to do anything like this,
15:04two prerequisites were necessary.
15:06I am sorry, I am cutting you short, Mr. Murtaza Wahab.
15:09I am sorry, I am cutting you short.
15:11We were not expecting that.
15:13Actually, that expectation was increased when the meeting continued on Saturday and Sunday.
15:16And all the senators were made to sit.
15:19And then they were sent to the lodges.
15:22And then they were told that they will be called.
15:24So, this expectation was increased by the government and the allies.
15:30Increasing expectations and reality is a difference.
15:34I am requesting you that the basic principle of legislation,
15:38according to that principle, if the government moves a bill,
15:42then it has to be approved by its cabinet.
15:45And the second thing is that if something is started from the parliament,
15:49for example, the Speaker has formed a committee to strengthen the parliament
15:54for the reformation of the constitution.
15:57Or it has to come through that committee.
16:00These two prerequisites were not fulfilled.
16:03Nothing could be finalized in that way.
16:07So, I think that perhaps that consensus could not be built
16:11because of which these things could not be formalized.
16:14Now, the meeting has been extended.
16:17The government has time.
16:19Its allies also have time.
16:21Opposition parties also have time.
16:23Come and sit together.
16:25And how to propose such a solution to the people of Pakistan
16:29in which there is respect for institutions,
16:32there is also a height of the constitution.
16:34And at the same time, you can also solve the issues of justice for the people.
16:39Bilawal Bhutto Zardari has said,
16:42I have no doubt that the next Chief Justice will be Mansoor Ali Shah.
16:48This doubt was arising due to this constitutional amendment.
16:52Should we say that this constitutional amendment will take place after the arrival of a new Chief Justice?
17:00No, I will explain it to you.
17:03What Bilawal has said is absolutely correct.
17:07Because according to the current law,
17:12the senior most judge of the Supreme Court becomes the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
17:18So, absolutely after the retirement of Qazi Faiz Ishaq,
17:21Justice Mansoor Ali Shah is the senior most judge.
17:25And according to the law, it is his right to become the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
17:29So, we are saying that in the constitutional amendment of Mr. Bhutto Zardari,
17:32the panel of five judges will be selected by the Prime Minister.
17:36That section is over.
17:40I have told you that such a thing has not been finalized yet.
17:44But Mr. Bhutto Zardari, it seems to me that if Mansoor Ali Shah comes,
17:50and at this time, according to the law and constitution,
17:52the senior most judge will be appointed as the Chief Justice,
17:54then it means that if the constitution comes before that time,
17:58then that matter will not take place.
18:00That is, the matter of the panel of five judges will not take place.
18:04Or it is possible that the constitutional amendment will take place after the return of Mr. Mansoor Ali Shah.
18:09Let me make it easy for you.
18:12If the constitutional amendment comes late and becomes a constitutional court,
18:16then you never know.
18:17Who knows, Mr. Mansoor Ali Shah may be his Chief Justice.
18:19There is no guarantee that he will become the Chief Justice.
18:22It is written somewhere that who will become the Chief Justice.
18:27You are saying that Mansoor Ali Shah can be the judge of the new constitutional court.
18:34Absolutely.
18:37The criteria that is being quoted everywhere is that
18:42either he can be a judge of the present Supreme Court,
18:47or a judge of the retired Supreme Court,
18:50or a judge of the High Court,
18:53or a practicing lawyer.
18:56So, I think that Mansoor Ali Shah meets all the criteria.
18:59Let's extrapolate this scenario.
19:03If you are saying that Mansoor Ali Shah,
19:05because I have no doubt that Mansoor Ali Shah will be the next Chief Justice of Pakistan.
19:11But you are saying that Mansoor Ali Shah can be the Chief Justice of the constitutional court.
19:15Then who will become the Chief Justice in the Supreme Court, Mr. Murtaza Wahab?
19:19Again, after him, the senior most judges will be there.
19:23Neither I nor you can change the procedure of the constitution.
19:27We have to follow what is stated in the constitution.
19:30The constitution says that this will be the procedure.
19:33The constitution says that this will be the procedure to amend the constitution.
19:37The constitution says that the affairs of the state,
19:40will be exercised by the people of Pakistan through their chosen representatives.
19:45Neither Murtaza Wahab can do it, nor Anika can do it,
19:48nor can anyone who walks on the road do it.
19:50The decision has to be taken by the chosen representatives.
19:55Tell me Mr. Murtaza Wahab, is Maulana Wahab coming?
20:01Maulana Wahab is not coming.
20:03Again, I am not a translator of the JUI.
20:06No, this is an easy way, Mr. Murtaza Wahab.
20:09See, Mr. Zardari's departure,
20:12this is an easy way that I am not a translator of this,
20:15but Mr. Zardari's departure is a certain stake of the People's Party.
20:18It cannot be completely brushed aside, right?
20:23If you had given me a chance to answer,
20:26I would have commented on this.
20:28I said that naturally I am not a translator of the JUI,
20:31so I cannot speak on their behalf.
20:33I can tell you my assessment,
20:35because I was present in the two engagements with Maulana Wahab,
20:38of Bilawal Puttu and Mr. Zardari.
20:41Maulana Wahab is fundamentally in favour of the establishment of a constitutional court.
20:45He has no objection to the establishment of a constitutional court,
20:49and he and Mr. Bilawal, to this extent,
20:52are on the same page,
20:54and perhaps the federal government is also on the same page.
20:57Now, what will be the parameters of that constitutional court?
21:00What will be its parameters?
21:02I think it needs to be deliberated and chalked out.
21:05So, as soon as a consensus is built,
21:08I think Mr. Maulana can come to it.
21:11He has not opposed this principle.
21:15Right.
21:16Mr. Murtaza Wahab, thank you very much for joining me in the program.
21:19We will now go to the break.
21:20After the break, we will discuss some of its legal intricacies,
21:23because Mr. Murtaza Wahab has just said that
21:27the Chief Justice of the new court can also be Justice Mansoor Ali Shah.
21:30That is something very interesting.
21:32We will talk after the break.
21:34Welcome back after the break.
21:36On one hand, there is a political issue,
21:39and on the other hand, there is a legal issue.
21:41Lawyers are present in this courtroom,
21:44and obviously, another interesting situation has developed.
21:48A Minister of Law, Mr. Tarar,
21:50had said that he will hold an important press conference.
21:53He will talk about the points.
21:55But after that, it was found out that he will meet the Bar Associations.
22:00And he will tell all his points there.
22:02The situation is that the Supreme Court Bar Association
22:05has issued a notice regarding the I.N.I. package.
22:08In the I.N.I. package, a committee has been formed
22:11to discuss the Bar Councils and Bar Associations.
22:15This committee will bring its report within seven days.
22:20Not just that, the committee will include the Vice-Chairman
22:23of the Bar Councils and the Chairman of the Executive Committee.
22:26Not just that, the committee will include the Vice-Chairman
22:29of the Bar Councils and the Chairman of the Executive Committee.
22:32Not just that, the committee will include the Vice-Chairman
22:35of the Bar Councils and the Chairman of the Executive Committee.
22:38So this is the constitution of the committee,
22:40which has now been formed by Vukala.
22:42Now Vukala is saying, ask us too.
22:44It's not like you will make all the I.N.I. amendments yourself
22:46and no one will ask us.
22:48Mr. Hamid Khan has given a very strict and stern statement.
22:51He has been giving such statements since day one.
22:53But listen to what he said.
22:56To bring the I.N.I. amendments, there is a non-legitimacy
22:59of this government, which is the government of Form 47.
23:02Pakistan's Federal Constitutional Court
23:05is only and only the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
23:08Without it, no Federal Constitutional Court can be formed.
23:12Forget this, they will never let Vukala happen.
23:15After every Chief Justice is retired,
23:17the Supreme Court's most senior judge
23:19will only become the Chief Justice.
23:21There will not be a panel channel of five.
23:25To talk about this, we have two lawyers with us.
23:28Mr. Yahya Fareed is with us.
23:30Barrister Ahmed Pansota is with us.
23:32Thank you very much, gentlemen.
23:33Mr. Yahya, let's start with you first.
23:35It's very clear, Mr. Hamid is saying,
23:38that being the Supreme Court, being the Chief Justice of Pakistan,
23:43there is no question of any other I.N.I. court being formed.
23:46Will the I.N.I. amendments also not allow
23:48any other I.N.I. court to be formed?
23:50Because in the I.N.I. court, all political parties,
23:52especially the United Nations, the government, and Mr. Maulana,
23:55Mr. Murtaza Wahab was telling us,
23:57that they are also ready to sit on this.
23:59Look, the I.N.I. courts are not the first case in Pakistan.
24:03There are I.N.I. courts in 77 countries in the world.
24:06And let's take Pakistan as an example.
24:08There are I.N.I. courts in countries like France and Germany.
24:11So, forming an I.N.I. court is not an attack
24:14on the independence of judiciary.
24:16This is the first thing.
24:17Look, you can say that this is a political failure
24:20of the coalition government.
24:21The way this bill was being tabled,
24:23or the way it was not discussed with the opposition,
24:26this is a political failure.
24:28But to say that all these 43 amendments are an attack
24:32on the independence of judiciary,
24:34I think this is a crime.
24:36That 20 years of hard work,
24:38in which we saw a legal awakening,
24:40which was the Lawyers' Movement.
24:41The Lawyers' Movement was not for the sake of Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhary.
24:44It was for the independence of judiciary.
24:46But it was important for it,
24:48that judicial reforms were brought in.
24:51Look, I don't understand
24:54why our people, our lawyers,
24:57lawyers' organizations, politicians, journalists,
24:59why do they get scared when judicial reforms
25:02are discussed in the parliament.
25:04Let's take Pakistan as an example.
25:06Let's take Mexico as an example.
25:07There was a big problem in Mexico.
25:09In the appointment of judges,
25:10the cartels of drugs were influencing.
25:12Mexico amended its law.
25:14Six and a half thousand judges,
25:17No one has a problem with amendments in the law.
25:20It is justified.
25:22But the problem is with the method.
25:24Because the foreign councils are saying,
25:25include us in this.
25:27Take suggestions from us.
25:28Take advice from us.
25:30As far as the method is concerned,
25:32there were only two methods.
25:33The government would have approved it from the federal cabinet.
25:35It would have taken it to the parliament
25:36with a two-third majority.
25:38If there had been a vote, it would have been approved.
25:40Yes, there should have been a consultation.
25:42There is no doubt about this.
25:43The coalition should have had a consultation.
25:45But that is a political failure.
25:46But the way these 43 amendments
25:48have been put in cold storage,
25:50saying that we do not need these amendments.
25:53I think this is perhaps
25:55a reaction from Vukla and the lawmakers.
25:58This is a wrong reaction.
26:00Because making a federal constitutional court
26:03is not a crime.
26:05In fact, the burden of the 60,000 cases
26:07pending in the Supreme Court of Pakistan
26:09will be reduced.
26:10And modern jurisprudence has now become a part
26:12that you have to make specialized courts.
26:14If you can make specialized courts
26:16in the lower courts,
26:18such as the Banking Court and the Terrorism Court,
26:20then why can't you make the body of a constitutional expert
26:22on a higher forum,
26:24which is the composition of the judges
26:26of the Supreme Court, the judges of the High Court
26:28and the senior Vukla of the Supreme Court.
26:30So very soon, I think,
26:32only with the procedure,
26:34it is being said that this is an attack
26:36on the independence of judiciary.
26:38I will come back to you, Yahya.
26:40I would bring the question to you,
26:43I would bring the question to you,
26:45Mr. Hamid Khan.
26:47First of all, the Vukla will not let this happen.
26:49Is this the perspective of Mr. Hamid Khan
26:51or the perspective of the Vukla?
26:53Because here, the committee that has been formed,
26:55it has also been said in the declaration
26:57that apart from the Vukla representative organizations,
26:59no one is allowed to call for a strike.
27:05Look, first of all,
27:07the view of Mr. Hamid Khan
27:09is that a majority of the Vukla of Pakistan
27:11subscribe to the Supreme Court.
27:13That view is not an ill-founded view.
27:15Now, as far as the matter is concerned
27:17whether the amendment can be made in the constitution
27:19or not, no one, of course,
27:21disputes this thing.
27:23It is the right of the parliament
27:25to amend the constitution.
27:27But I want to ask two or three questions.
27:29When you bring the amendment of the constitution,
27:31and the amendment of the constitution
27:33is such a situation-specific or person-specific.
27:35Look, the Charter of Democracy was remembered today.
27:37All these reforms were remembered
27:39by notifying the Chief Justice.
27:41Today, it is impossible to notify the Chief Justice.
27:43All these amendments that you are bringing,
27:45these amendments, in my opinion,
27:47if you read the case of the Rawalpindi Bar Association,
27:49a salient feature has been declared
27:51to the Independence of Judiciary.
27:53It is intended to impinge on the Independence of Judiciary.
27:55Because the court that you are making,
27:57even the federal court,
27:59and the way you are giving it jurisdiction,
28:01you are making the Supreme Court redundant
28:03from that jurisdiction.
28:05If the pendency of cases were an issue,
28:07then this is going to be resolved.
28:09Let me put another perspective in front of you,
28:11which is the perspective of the government,
28:13because there is no representative of the government.
28:15They say that,
28:17one is the case of the people,
28:19and the other is the case of Khawas.
28:21The cases of Khawas take up 90% of the time of the Supreme Court.
28:23So, the people remain trapped.
28:25There, the death happens in the jail,
28:27and then there is a bail.
28:29And it is found that the person had died in the jail.
28:31So, the cases of the people,
28:33listen to this, the Supreme Court,
28:35and the cases of the people,
28:37which also have a media airtime,
28:39those courts should be made,
28:41which will become the new courts,
28:43which will be the new courts.
28:45Look, Lahore High Court and other high courts
28:47have constitutional jurisdiction
28:49as well as civil criminal jurisdiction.
28:51There, you did not create a special court.
28:53There, the specialized benches,
28:55murder references are also heard,
28:57your civil appeals are also heard,
28:59and they decide it very quickly.
29:01In the Supreme Court of Pakistan,
29:03there can be a legislative bench.
29:05So, you nominate a constitutional bench
29:07of the top three judges,
29:09and give them work,
29:11that in the next three months,
29:13you have to end all constitutional cases,
29:15you will not have more constitutional cases.
29:17You should understand this thing
29:19that Article 199 and Article 1843
29:21also emanate from the constitutional jurisdiction.
29:23Tomorrow, when you file a tax writ,
29:25it is also filed in Article 199,
29:27so it will also go to the federal court.
29:29The division that is being created,
29:31and the way a specific person...
29:33So, that Article 68 has been rejected,
29:35for now, it has been rejected.
29:37I will say one more thing,
29:39that whenever a constitutional amendment
29:41is made anywhere in the world,
29:43we give examples of countries in the world,
29:45there is a debate, handshards are made,
29:47debates are made public,
29:49you have Article 18 in front of you,
29:51Mr. Reza Rabbani got an award,
29:53even our law minister does not have this amendment,
29:55you can ask five people.
29:57If there could have been a debate
29:59on this amendment,
30:01maybe things would have been better.
30:03The question raised by Ahmed here,
30:05that also has some weightage,
30:07that a tribunal should be made,
30:09a special bench of a few judges
30:11should be made,
30:13to listen to the matters of the constitution.
30:15By doing a separate court,
30:17there will not be overlapping cases,
30:19despite the fact that Mr. Maulana also agrees to it.
30:21See, the present structure,
30:23if you say that
30:25your constitutional and judicial structure
30:27is a very good structure,
30:29then what is the reason that in the last 10-15 years,
30:31many Chief Justices passed,
30:33who were alleged to be politically motivated,
30:35or they had contacts,
30:37or they were influenced.
30:39This means that your present structure
30:41does not guarantee
30:43the judiciary of independence.
30:45So you cannot say that
30:47your judiciary is independent.
30:49If you show me a Pakistani,
30:51educated Pakistani,
30:53who says this,
30:55if the judiciary
30:57is not independent,
30:59now you are asking this question,
31:01even in the index of justice,
31:03we were at 139,
31:05as far as I remember,
31:07so what is the guarantee that
31:09the new constitutional court will become independent,
31:11considering that
31:13those who want to legislate,
31:15those same people,
31:17i.e. the Prime Minister,
31:19will be involved in the speech of the Chief Justice.
31:21Pakistan is not just an example,
31:23you take the example of America.
31:25You talk about Pakistan.
31:27Look,
31:29even in the best democracies of the world,
31:31there is a role of senators,
31:33there is a role of their presidents,
31:35and in this you will get the US,
31:37you will also get European countries.
31:39So this is not happening for the first time.
31:41And look, this time the Parliament did not say
31:43that the 8-member committee of the National Assembly
31:45will appoint me or anyone
31:47as the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.
31:49They said that
31:51the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court
31:53or the Chief Justice of the Federal Constitutional Court
31:55will be appointed.
31:57So it is not that the Parliament
31:59does not have unbridled powers
32:01to appoint anyone.
32:03Look, I want to tell you one thing.
32:05Every year,
32:0725,000 cases are filed in the Supreme Court.
32:09There are 17 judges in the Supreme Court.
32:11Currently, 52,450 cases are pending.
32:13You can end this pendency
32:15in two ways.
32:17Either you increase the number of judges
32:19in the Supreme Court
32:21by 100 or 200,
32:23or you reduce the burden
32:25of the Supreme Court.
32:27And to reduce the burden,
32:29you will have to make a specialized court
32:31for the constitutional jurisdiction.
32:33The second thing,
32:35please let me know,
32:37look, the 17 judges in the Supreme Court
32:39are not constitutional experts.
32:41This is important, you should understand this.
32:43Many judges hear your criminal cases
32:45in the High Court,
32:47not all of your judges are Justice Cornelius.
32:49How can you expect
32:51a judge which has heard
32:53only criminal cases in the High Court
32:55to decide?
32:57That is also a point to be noted.
32:59The last question,
33:01and then I will wrap up this segment.
33:03Won't this become a black hole?
33:05If every
33:07constitutional amendment
33:09is taken to the opposition,
33:11it should be taken to the opposition,
33:13it should be taken to the committees,
33:15but if one side agrees
33:17and the other does not,
33:19it should not be taken to the opposition.
33:21Isn't this a blackmailing tactic?
33:23This is a healthy debate
33:25in a society.
33:27The Constitution of Pakistan
33:29is a contract between
33:31the public and the state.
33:33This is not a government contract.
33:35The public is not the only lawyer.
33:37The public is normal at large.
33:39If the public representatives
33:41debate on this,
33:43there will be an important organ.
33:45I would also like to say
33:47that when Justice Asif Khosla
33:49was in office,
33:51Pakistan's pendency was zero
33:53except for one registry.
33:55At that time, we did not have a Constitutional Court.
33:57It is the will that you need to implement.
33:59The pendency did not end.
34:01Let me complete for a second.
34:03Please allow me.
34:05I will give you time again.
34:07At that time,
34:09the pendency of 3-4 registries
34:11was a statement of the Chief Justice.
34:13This is not my statement.
34:15You are repeatedly talking about the Federal Court
34:17where specialists will be appointed.
34:19The Prime Minister of Pakistan
34:21will appoint specialists
34:23from the retired judges.
34:25All the judges of the Supreme Court
34:27come from the bottom to the top
34:29while working in the Constitutional Jurisdiction.
34:31Thank you very much.
34:33It is indeed a matter
34:35that needs to be debated.
34:37At the same time,
34:39we need to discuss
34:41how the government
34:43handles the situation.
34:45We will go to the break.
34:47After the break,
34:49we will talk about some issues
34:51on the international level
34:53related to Pakistan.
34:55We will also talk about Afghanistan.
35:03Welcome back after the break.
35:05We will talk about Pakistan.
35:07There are many international issues
35:09that need to be discussed.
35:11The Deputy Prime Minister of Russia
35:13was here today.
35:15We met him.
35:17You must have heard the press briefing.
35:19In addition to that,
35:21the elections in Kashmir
35:23which are illegally occupied
35:25by the Indian government
35:27took place in 24 districts
35:29out of 90.
35:31The Pakistani Council General
35:33did not raise his voice.
35:35We will talk about all three issues.
35:37Mumtaz Zahra Balot is with us.
35:39Thank you very much, Mumtaz Sahiba
35:41for joining me in the program.
35:43First of all, let's talk about
35:45the Deputy Prime Minister of Russia.
35:47He is here.
35:49We are also going to the IMF.
35:51After the Seattle Center,
35:53we were with the Western Bloc.
35:55We had completely
35:57sidelined ourselves from Russia.
35:59These meetings and
36:01the strengthening of relations,
36:03do you think Pakistan
36:05will be able to balance
36:07its foreign policy?
36:09Thank you, Anika.
36:11You have asked
36:13an important question.
36:15Pakistan
36:17has been trying
36:19for many years.
36:21We have been trying
36:23for two decades.
36:25In the last decade,
36:27our priorities have been
36:29intensified.
36:31We want better relations
36:33with Russia.
36:35We want to strengthen
36:37these relations in all areas.
36:39Our focus has been
36:41on the economy.
36:43You may know
36:45that
36:47earlier this year,
36:49Prime Minister
36:51Shehbaz Sharif
36:53met
36:55President Putin
36:57of Russia.
36:59Both countries
37:01agreed
37:03to work
37:05on economic
37:07cooperation, connectivity
37:09and dialogue.
37:11In the same context,
37:13the Vice
37:15and Deputy Prime Ministers
37:17of Pakistan
37:19are meeting today.
37:21The agenda is very broad.
37:23The focus is on
37:25the economy, trade,
37:27connectivity
37:29and agricultural cooperation.
37:31Pakistan
37:33and Russia
37:35will work together
37:37to find
37:39new ways
37:41for cooperation.
37:43One thing is clear.
37:45Countries do not develop.
37:47Regions do. Regional connectivity
37:49is of utmost importance.
37:51India has been
37:53balancing
37:55the economic situation
37:57well.
37:59India has also
38:01used
38:03IMF
38:05as a political
38:07tool.
38:09How will we
38:11balance these issues
38:13with Russia,
38:15IMF,
38:17and Western countries?
38:19Pakistan has said
38:21that it will
38:23work with all countries.
38:25Our goal is not to
38:27balance or
38:29please anyone.
38:31Our goal is to pursue
38:33the national interest of Pakistan.
38:35We want to have
38:37good relations with all countries,
38:39including the United States,
38:41the Western bloc,
38:43and Russia.
38:45In this context,
38:47you are right
38:49that it is time for regional connectivity.
38:51Pakistan has reached
38:53an important agreement
38:55with Russia.
38:57Pakistan has
38:59exceeded
39:01a regional agreement
39:03today.
39:05This connectivity
39:07is of utmost importance
39:09with Central Asia.
39:11Central Asia is a region
39:13and Russia is
39:15a country
39:17in a nearby region.
39:19This is why
39:21we need good relations
39:23with Russia.
39:25Obviously, the upcoming summit
39:27in Pakistan is also an important thing.
39:29Let's move on to another topic,
39:31Ms. Balot.
39:33We have a custom
39:35of standing up
39:37to the national anthem
39:39of a country.
39:41Recently, the Rehmat-ul-Alamin
39:43conference was held.
39:45The CMKPK called the Council General
39:47to Pakistan.
39:49They did not stand up
39:51to the national anthem.
39:53Diplomatically, how does Pakistan
39:55view this?
39:57We strongly
39:59condemn this event.
40:01We believe that
40:03this is against
40:05international etiquette.
40:07Diplomats in Pakistan
40:09have
40:11an expectation
40:13that they should
40:15respect the national anthem
40:17of Pakistan
40:19as we respect
40:21the national anthem
40:23of Pakistan.
40:25Pakistan has
40:27recorded a strong
40:29protest against this event
40:31in Afghanistan.
40:33Here in Islamabad,
40:35the CMKPK was called
40:37for a protest.
40:39Similarly,
40:41in Kabul,
40:43Pakistan has
40:45recorded a protest
40:47against this event.
40:49I will not drag you into
40:51political situations,
40:53but what is the
40:55opinion of the
40:57Federal Government,
40:59Foreign Office and Foreign Ministry
41:01regarding this event?
41:03You are right.
41:05We will not talk about politics.
41:07However,
41:09we want to clarify
41:11that the foreign policy
41:13of Pakistan
41:15is a federal subject
41:17according to the
41:19constitution of Pakistan.
41:21There are
41:23no objections
41:25to this.
41:27Pakistan will pursue
41:29its foreign policy
41:31with Afghanistan
41:33or any other country
41:35in its national interest.
41:37Any citizen of Pakistan
41:39or any political
41:41force or
41:43political personality
41:45can submit their proposals
41:47to the government of Pakistan.
41:49However, the foreign policy
41:51of Pakistan will be pursued
41:53at the federal level.
41:55Let's move on to the third topic.
41:57This is a rapid fire session.
41:59There are a lot of topics.
42:01In Kashmir,
42:03an Indian illegally occupied
42:05Jammu and Kashmir,
42:07elections will be held
42:09on October 1st.
42:11We know that
42:13demographics are being changed
42:15systematically in Kashmir.
42:17Elections are being held
42:19after 10 years.
42:21After the abrogation of
42:23Article 35 and Article 370,
42:25elections are held for the first time.
42:27It has been 5 years.
42:29Elections have been held
42:31in 24 states out of 90.
42:33Muslim majority is high.
42:35How is Pakistan
42:37looking at these elections
42:39at the embassy level?
42:41Are these elections
42:43being seen as elections?
42:45Look,
42:47Pakistan's position
42:49on these elections
42:51has always been
42:53that of the Kashmiri people.
42:55We believe
42:57that
42:59the Kashmiri people
43:01have the right
43:03to self-determination
43:05in these
43:07fictitious
43:09elections.
43:11Pakistan
43:13has always
43:15supported
43:17the UN Security Council
43:19resolutions.
43:21The UN Security Council
43:23resolutions
43:25have given a very clear
43:27framework
43:29according to which
43:31the Kashmiri people
43:33will have the right
43:35to self-determination
43:37in the UN
43:39through a plebiscite.
43:41The so-called elections
43:43and their framework
43:45have never been
43:47accepted by
43:49Pakistan or Kashmiris.
43:51Nor have we
43:53accepted
43:55India's
43:57sovereignty
43:59over Kashmir
44:01nor have we
44:03accepted the validity
44:05of India's constitution
44:07on Kashmir.
44:09On one hand,
44:11the issue of demographic change
44:13is very serious.
44:15In these elections,
44:17India has prepared
44:1935,000 Kashmiri Pandits
44:21to vote.
44:23Having said that,
44:25Antonio Guterres,
44:27you have said that the UN
44:29resolutions about Kashmir stand.
44:31How actively are we going
44:33to pursue this?
44:35Pakistan has been
44:37actively pursuing this.
44:39In 2019,
44:41when India took
44:43illegal actions in Kashmir,
44:45it was debated
44:47in the United Nations.
44:49The international community
44:51has rejected it.
44:53Even today,
44:55Kashmir is a disputed
44:57territory.
44:59No country in the world
45:01accepts India's
45:03narrative.
45:05No country
45:07accepts India's
45:09attitude towards
45:11Kashmir.
45:13This is
45:15the reality.
45:17You are right
45:19that demographic
45:21changes are being brought
45:23about.
45:25There was a
45:27delimitation commission
45:29under which
45:31constituencies
45:33were restricted
45:35and Muslim
45:37constituencies
45:39were reduced.
45:41This is a very
45:43well thought out plan
45:45which India is working on.
45:47But the Kashmiri people have
45:49rejected it.
45:51We believe that
45:53there is no validity
45:55according to international law.
45:57Lastly,
45:59Pakistan is hosting
46:01the SCO Summit.
46:03Is India attending or not?
46:05Pakistan
46:07is hosting
46:09the SCO Summit
46:11according to
46:13its obligations.
46:15Pakistan has sent
46:17invitations to all
46:19countries including
46:21India.
46:23Let us
46:25see
46:27how many countries
46:29are attending.
46:31Is there any answer from India?
46:33We are waiting for
46:35their answer.
46:37Thank you very much
46:39for being with us.
46:41Let us conclude
46:43the program.
46:45Pakistan is developing
46:47so we have to
46:49diversify our
46:51relations with other countries
46:53and step in the right direction.
46:55Take care.
46:57Allah Hafiz.