Mahbouba Seraj, Afghan women's rights activist, speaks with Mayank Chhaya on the Taliban's new draconian restrictions | SAM Conversation
Mahbouba Seraj, Afghan women's rights activist, speaks with Mayank Chhaya on the Taliban's new draconian restrictions | SAM Conversation
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00:00Last month, the Taliban issued a 114-page, 35-article document that aims to what it calls
00:17promotion of virtue and elimination of vice as per the Islamic laws.
00:23The new laws, focusing largely against women, were approved by the Taliban's Supreme Leader
00:29Hebtullah Akhundzada.
00:32One of the restrictions makes it illegal for a woman's voice to be heard by male strangers
00:37in public.
00:38It also prohibits women's faces from being seen in public.
00:42My Ankshar Report spoke to Mahbuba Siraj, the well-known campaigner for Afghan women
00:47and children's rights, to understand how the new laws would make life worse than it
00:53already is.
00:54She is currently visiting the United States from Kabul.
00:58Mahbuba Siraj.
01:00Welcome to My Ankshar Reports, Mr. Raj, it's always a pleasure to have you.
01:06It's really a pleasure to be here.
01:07So glad to see you.
01:08Unfortunately, the subject is not pleasant at all.
01:11I was reading reports out of Kabul, there is a new 114-page, 35-article document that
01:20the Taliban says is going to promote virtue and eliminate vice.
01:26One of the articles forbids a woman's voice to be heard by male strangers in public.
01:34If you were in Kabul, you would be arrested, I suppose.
01:37That's right.
01:38What do you think is going on?
01:39I mean, this is beyond absurd now, isn't that?
01:43It's absolutely beyond absurd.
01:45And the strangest thing is that, I mean, they are doing this thing.
01:51And what absolutely surprises me is the fact that the whole world is watching and thinking
01:56that it's perfectly fine to be doing these things.
01:59That is the part that I, I'm sorry, I really don't get it.
02:04It's like one group has gone maybe, you know, or doing their thing.
02:07That was their thing always.
02:09But what about the world?
02:11Was it their thing always also?
02:12I have no idea what is going on.
02:16But yeah, they're all accepting it and they think it's, you know, it's the way we are
02:20and this is the way we want and it's an internal policy of my country and, you know, and everything
02:27is fine and they should be doing that.
02:29That's it.
02:30And nobody's saying anything.
02:32And right now, my voice is haram, for God's sakes.
02:36I mean, everything else was, our face, our body, everything.
02:40Yeah.
02:41Now my voice, our voices are haram.
02:44It should not be heard.
02:45And if our voices are heard, the men of Afghanistan are going to get excited.
02:49I mean, really?
02:51Really?
02:52This is where we are.
02:53I have absolutely no idea what on earth is going on.
02:57But hey.
02:58How does it work at the, I'm sorry to be to be tickled by this somewhat, but how does
03:04it work at the practical level?
03:06I mean, when women come out, they may have some little voice coming out at some point
03:11in life while they're on the street.
03:14What is the Taliban's endgame here?
03:17You know, I, you know, as much as you like, like, I don't know what they mean, actually,
03:25what they're trying to say or they're trying to do, I believe, is really to stop the voices
03:32of women when it comes to for them to maybe talk about problems, maybe raise their voices
03:37about it, maybe complain about it, because there's tons of things to be complaining about,
03:42especially when it comes to women in Afghanistan.
03:45They have taken away everything from us.
03:47So I mean, of course, you know, our voices are going to be raised at some point.
03:53And they just want to put a stop to that.
03:57So if that's if that voice is raised, then it's going to be considered as a crime, literally,
04:04and not in the eyes of God, but what you are representing, you know, a lot now and they
04:09are doing that.
04:10And of course, you know, they know better than anybody else.
04:13So yeah.
04:14And even, you know, in the government now or whoever is in charge, they can have it
04:18as an excuse to put these women behind jail, behind bars and or beat them up or I don't
04:24know what to do with them.
04:26So that is the name of the game.
04:28It's just a control.
04:29It's a control thing all over again.
04:32And even with the voices of the women, because there was nothing else they could control.
04:36The woman, they said, you know, hijab, we all wore a hijab.
04:39They said to be, you know, covered up, we all were covered up.
04:43So, you know, we did all of those things.
04:46But the only thing that we didn't do was that, you know, that we would talk once in a while
04:50or once in a while, raise our voices or maybe talk in our family or with a raised voice
04:54or whatever.
04:56And they had to stop that, too.
04:57So that's what it is.
04:59What kind of man is Hebtullah Khunzada, I mean, the Taliban leader who is issuing these
05:04decrees?
05:05You know, Mr. Chai, you know, the other day I was really thinking about this and I was
05:12thinking about about the way this whole thing is.
05:16And I started, you know, thinking that this must be another another eyes and other hands
05:23and other thoughts and other heads involved in this, because by doing something like this,
05:29what they are doing to Afghanistan, actually, they are they are putting Afghanistan in a
05:36corner and keeping it away from the people a lot more than before.
05:41And it's a it's a complete not accepting acceptance of the people of Afghanistan.
05:48And for that matter, the de facto government or whoever is there.
05:51And I was thinking that this is a kind of a plan that the enemy of a country will do.
05:57Honestly, it's not that they will give it as a and they will give it as a as a, you
06:03know, as a suggestion.
06:04And and these people will do it.
06:06Don't forget that.
06:08I know I'm not maybe supposed to be like that, but I am.
06:12I always think of Pakistan and I always hold them responsible for these things.
06:16I really do in one way or another, because they have their hands in everything.
06:22I saw them coming on the you know, three years ago when they when the Taliban arrived in
06:28Kabul, the ISI person was was in Kabul.
06:31I really did see the pictures.
06:33It's not that, you know, somebody is trying to fool me.
06:35No, they were there.
06:37They went to Kandahar.
06:38They went and talked to a lot of the people.
06:40A lot of things started to change after their visit.
06:44And, you know, and the only one country that is sitting as our neighbor that can have their
06:52hands in all of this and and kind of get some benefits out of it is Pakistan.
06:59And I do have a feeling and I'm not saying anything, I don't have any kind of a, you
07:05know, for sure anything in my hands to say this is they are doing this for sure.
07:11But, you know, it actually kept me awake in the middle of the night and I started to think
07:17about it. And I said, well, you know, it must be must be something like that, because
07:22otherwise who would do something like this?
07:25Why do something like this?
07:26The rest of the Islamic world is absolutely, absolutely.
07:31They are they are so amazed by this.
07:34And at the same time, some of them are really disgusted by the whole thing.
07:37But even Saudi Arabia, the home of absolutely oppressive Wahhabism, doesn't have that,
07:43right? No, no.
07:44I mean, even even them, because, you know, it's not it's not the country now that I see
07:51is not the religion is really the man, whoever is ruling it.
07:55So now in Saudi Arabia, there is a man that looks at the world, you know, in the future of
08:00the world and future of the women and future of Saudi Arabia in the world.
08:04So, you know, he he makes those decisions.
08:07And then there are men that they make these decisions.
08:10And they are, you know, there are other men in this world that they that they take
08:13advantage of it. And they push us into that that corner of oblivion by the world.
08:21And we are all saying we are thinking it's absolutely OK, which is absolutely not.
08:26How do you think this works in terms of its enforcement beyond Kabul?
08:31Because I wonder whether the Taliban really runs across the country.
08:37Well, yeah.
08:39But the thing is that the interesting part is that they are starting all of this, putting
08:44it into practice outside of Kabul in the provinces.
08:47I'm sorry. First.
08:48Yeah. Yeah.
08:50That is that is what they always do.
08:52And now they don't they don't come up and start implementing something straight in
08:58Kabul. They go and start implementing it in the provinces and then make up.
09:03So I think that's an interesting point.
09:06Sorry, that's an interesting point that you get from province to.
09:11Absolutely. They did this thing in the beginning when they came in, when they came
09:15to Kabul, they started from the provinces and they saw the fact that how successful
09:20they were. And I mean, three years ago, I'm talking about 2021.
09:25So that success and they got the idea that the best way is really to start implementing
09:31it first in the provinces and then come to Kabul.
09:33I see. You came to the US on this visit about three weeks ago, I believe.
09:39I think. Yeah, I think it's about that time.
09:41Yeah. You're fairly well versed with what's been going on for the last nearly three
09:47years since the Taliban has been in charge.
09:51Exactly. What what do you think?
09:53Where do you think Afghanistan is headed now?
09:56Disaster. No matter how much I think, I don't know.
10:00It's like it's like from from one darkness, you get into another darkness.
10:05And then from that darkness, we get into another darkness.
10:08So it's just it's just it's getting it's getting to be the most I'm sorry to say that,
10:14but I'm finding it absolutely ridiculous.
10:18I don't I you know, who is supposed to be now?
10:23Of course, they don't want to hear my voice at all because I was going to have a talk
10:26with a few of them and really try to to talk to them and see, you know, if there is
10:31anything we can we can come up with some kind of agreement in talking about the future
10:37of this country. The future of Afghanistan is not for Afghanistan to go backwards, you
10:42know, every 10 years, 10 years, 10 years and every single one of these at this
10:48and, you know, announcements that are coming out from Kandahar that they are taking us
10:52backwards. This is not the way to to go.
10:55This is not the way to be in the world.
10:56The world is going forward and we really have to take our part in it.
11:00And I was going to have a talk with a few of them and maybe but but now, you know, my
11:05voice is absolutely, you know, as they can't hear my voice.
11:10So and that's that's considered, you know, as I said, it's a crime, it's a it's a it's a
11:15sin. So there you are, you know, so I don't even know what to say to them.
11:20And we have to talk.
11:22We have to we have to sit down and talk.
11:25I'm still a believer that if we do talk, there is there is there is a possibility of
11:31maybe putting some kind of a sense and really coming up with something that might be
11:36agreeable to both sides.
11:39While you're here, do you ever make any outreach to the to Washington, the State
11:44Department or anyone else at all?
11:46You know, Mr. Chaya, I am I am kind of I should say that and I'm saying it here.
11:55I am I'm very disappointed.
11:59I'm very disappointed at the world in general and especially United States and the State
12:05Department and all of that.
12:06I am and especially now because of the just before the election, nobody is going to hear
12:12what I have to say.
12:13They really don't care.
12:15But even even before that, and I don't know after what is going to be happening.
12:22I hope that the United States starts really listening to some people, to somebody, to
12:31some ideas from inside Afghanistan and really and really put that into practice properly
12:38and not not doing it like the way they are doing it right now, which is really talking
12:42from both corners of their mouth.
12:44And that is not right at all.
12:47It doesn't sit right with us.
12:48It doesn't sit right with the with the woman in Afghanistan in general, with the
12:54philosophy of the United States, with the way with the way this country is supposed to
12:58be. It's democracy, everything.
13:01It just goes so much against all of that that it kind of is very disappointing for me.
13:07So that's why, no, I have not reached anybody and I really wouldn't because it's going to
13:11be a waste of my time and theirs.
13:13And right now they're very busy.
13:15They have their hands full.
13:17In the event that Kamala Harris does indeed become president, do you think the very fact
13:23of her gender may have some influence on the way U.S.
13:28looks at Afghanistan, especially the women of Afghanistan?
13:32It all depends because, again, you know, as I as I said, you know, it really has to do
13:37with the person a lot in the world.
13:41I don't know what kind of a person really she is.
13:44I mean, I'm glad she's she's running right now, but I don't know Kamala Harris very much
13:51her personality and what she stands for, because so far she has always been the you know,
13:56she's been the vice president.
13:57So whenever the president said she had to say yes, because that's the job of vice president.
14:01I know that. But as far as herself and what kind of ideology she has personally, what
14:08she stands for, what does she really think?
14:11So, for example, Gaza, what does she really think of the Israeli invasion of that part
14:18of the world and of the way the Middle East is going right now and the way this whole
14:23thing is? I don't know what she really thinks of that.
14:26So I can't I can't say, but I hope I hope she well, anyways, as I said, you know, she
14:32will have her hands full because there is a lot that she has to consider as a president
14:37and also the fact that she's a woman and some parts is going to help and some parts is not.
14:41Yeah. You know, on the question of Israel, Gaza, I think she has struck a reasonable
14:48balance going by her pronouncement so far in the sense while saying that the US will
14:54stand by Israel, she's also talking equally firmly about the rights of the Palestinian
15:00people, especially in the context of two state solution.
15:04She is for that.
15:05So I suppose there could be some glimmer of hope there.
15:10I hope so. I hope so.
15:11And right now for her and for the world, to tell you the honest truth, really, and the
15:19balance of the world and the fact that because there is that one man that wants to push the
15:24world towards a towards a third world war.
15:27And that's Netanyahu.
15:28And I don't know why he's thinking like that.
15:31But for her, that will be the most important thing to do at this point.
15:36Right. I mean, that will be her priority.
15:38If I was going to be the president, I would think of Gaza and I would think of Palestine.
15:42Absolutely. Absolutely.
15:45Once whoever is the president, once they settle down, do you think anyone in Kabul among the
15:53Taliban leadership would reach out in any way to revive some sort of relationship?
16:01Because it's not typically dead.
16:03Mr. Chai, I'm sure of it.
16:05I'm sure they are in a relationship already.
16:07The only thing is that we don't know anything about it.
16:11They are very much in a relationship.
16:13I mean, all of this does not happen without two countries being in some kind of a relationship
16:18and not at all.
16:20So I'm sure they are going to maybe make it better, make it stronger, come and talk about it
16:27or whatever. But they're never going to say it out loud and know the world will ever know
16:32anything about it because it's going to be, you know, it's not going to work well for either
16:37one of them, for the United States nor for the Taliban.
16:40So they're going to keep it hush hush.
16:42But, oh, yeah, they're going to be talking.
16:44Yes, they have and they are and they will in the future, too.
16:48Yeah, for sure.
16:49Just the last point I wanted your once again, the question that I often ask you, what is
16:55life like in Kabul?
16:58Describe a day when you step out on the streets.
17:02What exactly is going on in Kabul?
17:05You know, I think I've told you this before.
17:07Also, yeah, life in Kabul is not, you know, it's not that horrible that, you know, you come
17:13in and you see terrible things happening.
17:15No, it's not. It's not like that.
17:17It's really is really it can be very calm and very quiet.
17:21I mean, you don't hear that.
17:22There is one thing that I do miss is the sound of music from from the streets.
17:26And, you know, I really miss that.
17:30And that's not happening.
17:31But it's OK. You know, after a while you get used to it.
17:35But then the rest, it's fine.
17:37You do. You do.
17:38One sees women on the streets of Kabul all covered up, a bit more covered up than before.
17:44But they are they are walking around.
17:46They are going to places.
17:47They are going shopping and they are there.
17:51Sometimes they go to the restaurants.
17:53Life goes on. The weather is going to be beautiful from now on because autumn is going to
17:57be there. We had a very hot summer.
18:01So, no, it's it's it's normal.
18:04Looks normal.
18:06Everything looks normal.
18:07But there is it's not normal because, you know, that whatever is going on there, that's
18:14the part I cannot explain because, you know, everybody comes and says, oh, everything is
18:18fine. No, everything is not fine.
18:20It cannot be fine.
18:22If you have put half of the population of a country and that kind of a predicament, it's
18:27not fine. It was just not fine.
18:29The only thing is that nobody can really see it, feel it the way we do.
18:35Because we are smack in the middle of it and and we and we feel it differently because I
18:42feel it differently. And so is my daughters and my girls and every woman in Afghanistan.
18:48So that's why that's why the difference is there.
18:51But otherwise, life in general goes on as life goes on in general.
18:57You know, like, yeah, in the East kind of thing.
19:01Yeah. And finally, your thoughts on broad thoughts on Afghanistan's economy, because
19:07there's been so much talk about destitution and poverty having grown enormously.
19:13What's the scene now?
19:14Well, that's that's the thing.
19:16You know, the the the economy should be right now our number one priority to work on.
19:23Even even the situation of, you know, I even want to want to approach the woman's
19:30situation in Afghanistan, what is going on against them from the from the point of view of
19:36economy. If we could get that going, at least that would be something, you know, that
19:42would be a step forward towards positivity, because that will keep that will bring
19:48about jobs that will bring about hope that will bring, you know, that will change.
19:54That will start another wheel turning in that country, which makes all the difference.
19:59You know, a lot of that's the way the world goes.
20:01So if we could do that, if we could put the kind of attention and pressure in that area, I
20:07do believe that that might be our success in a way.
20:12So I'm hoping to to start really putting the whole attention on that.
20:18I am working with my woman on that area.
20:21Even though even though I don't have much of a choice, you know, that's the thing.
20:25Even from the economy point of view, we don't have a whole lot of a choice.
20:28I mean, how many of the hand embroidery can we do?
20:32How many of these things can we do?
20:33We have to we have to be able to get involved in other things for the woman in order for
20:38women to start, you know, moving ahead and being involved in the economy of the country.
20:43But, you know, it doesn't matter as long as there is a place to start.
20:48I'll take that. And then we and then we go forward to see what happens afterwards.
20:55On that note, Mr. Raj, I want to thank you again for your time.
20:59You're always generous to me and I greatly appreciate it.
21:02Thank you so much, Mr. Chai.
21:04I am so happy to see you.
21:06Likewise.
21:07Absolutely wonderful.