Aafia Siddiqui: 'Victim of all victims' | Part II | Centre Stage
Aafia Siddiqui: 'Victim of all victims' | Part II | Centre Stage
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00:00Previously on Center Stage
00:02Afia's dragged out of the car herself and put in another car
00:06She's the only person we have a detailed history of
00:10who was put through the whole rendition-to-torture program
00:13by the Americans who is a woman
00:15But the terrorism charges were never actually brought against her?
00:17She's never been charged with anything
00:23In part one of this conversation
00:25civil rights lawyer Clive Stafford-Smith
00:27recounts how the events following the September 11 attacks on the U.S.
00:32and the so-called War on Terror
00:34eventually led him to take on the shocking case of Afia Siddiqui
00:38In part two, Stafford-Smith resumes the story of Afia Siddiqui
00:43the American-Pakistani woman serving an 86-year prison sentence
00:47a victim, he says, of the United States' global war on terror
00:53Now we go to 2008
00:55She is a ghost prisoner, but suddenly she is released
00:59This happened to so many people
01:01Now, normally, they would just be released some way
01:05But, ironically, the massive problem for Afia
01:10was her brilliant sister, Fawzia
01:13Fawzia, deeply concerned about where her sister
01:17and her two nephews and niece were
01:21had created such a movement in Pakistan
01:24Fawzia had a million people march on this
01:28So, many people around the world have not heard of Afia Siddiqui
01:31but she is the most famous woman in Pakistan
01:34In Pakistan, absolutely
01:35I think you've got Imran Khan is the most famous man
01:38and Afia Siddiqui is the most famous woman
01:40And, of course, she is being held in the United States
01:42so it could be a point of tension between Pakistan and America now
01:46In a way, you're totally right
01:47You put your finger on it
01:48This is the greatest dissonance that I've ever experienced
01:51between the public opinion in Pakistan, where everyone knows
01:55and America, where no one knows
01:57What happens to her in Ghazni?
01:59This is where it's absolutely bizarre
02:02and there is someone that then comes to her rescue
02:06They move her from Bagram to Ghazni Province
02:10Well, I think she'd already been moved to Kabul
02:13to this woman's prison in Kabul
02:15Now, I genuinely don't believe in conspiracy theories
02:1999% of the time, it's just some person doing something stupid
02:24It's not a conspiracy
02:25This is a conspiracy
02:27and I'm convinced of it
02:29and it has the ISI's fingerprints all over it
02:32It's a Pakistani thing
02:34So what happens is she's let go from where she's being held
02:39and she's told that if she goes to Ghazni, she can have Mariam back
02:44and they can all go back to Pakistan
02:46She's given this boy, whose name is Ihsan Ali,
02:50who is actually her son, Ahmed, but he's five years older
02:54He's deeply traumatised and doesn't admit to his own mum that he's Ahmed
02:59She's deeply traumatised and is not sure if he is
03:03But they're put on this bus
03:05and one thing I've only recently discovered is on this bus
03:08was someone who is obviously Pakistani
03:11I got a photograph of the guy
03:13This is a very important element
03:15A discovery you've made recently that could be very important in this case
03:18You've got two hypotheses
03:20One is that they're being true to their word
03:22and she's actually being released
03:24and she can go get Mariam and go back to Pakistan
03:27That's what she thinks is going to happen
03:30That is total nonsense, it turns out
03:34On the other hand, the second theory is that people need to get rid of her
03:40because she's such a political liability
03:42I'm convinced of it already from everything I've learned
03:45and it has the Pakistani fingerprints all over it
03:49that she was going to go to Ghazni on this bus
03:54She was going to be tarred as a suicide bomber
03:58and she was going to be killed there
04:00and the indicators of that is first
04:03on the bus is her son Ihsan Ali slash Ahmed
04:07It's July, hot summer in Afghanistan
04:11He's got a coat on with four big pockets with bits of fruit in it
04:16Clearly meant to look like he's a suicide bomber
04:19She's got a full shador and you can't see what's underneath it
04:22and she's told to go sit outside this mosque
04:25for Mariam to be delivered to her
04:28That's never going to happen
04:30So she goes to the mosque in Ghazni
04:32She's sitting there and someone calls in a suicide bomber warning
04:38and the Afghan National Police show up
04:4150 of them with their AK-47s
04:43They do what they do when there's a suicide bomb thing
04:46They're 100 feet away surrounding her
04:49She doesn't speak Farsi, they don't speak Urdu
04:52They would have just shot her
04:54and then what would have happened is the headline
04:57Evil Al-Qaeda woman suicide bomber
05:00She's dumped outside this mosque
05:02Someone puts in a call to the Afghans or the Americans
05:06saying she is about to plant a bomb in this place
05:09and so they surround her
05:10and the idea is that probably she would be killed
05:13Exactly, there's only one reason that didn't happen
05:15I went to Ghazni on a cold winter day in November
05:20and I found this guy, Mohammed Ajmal Mohammadi
05:23He was a tailor who was across the street
05:26from the Khaled Bin Waleed Mosque
05:29and he saw this woman out there
05:31and there were people trying to talk to her
05:33She didn't speak Farsi, so they couldn't talk
05:36So in the end, he goes out there as it's getting dark
05:39and he says, you know, this is a war zone
05:41It's 2008 in Ghazni
05:43You can't stay here, my aunt lives around the corner
05:46Why don't you go stay there for the night?
05:48She's saying, no, no, no, I'm waiting
05:50They're talking Urdu
05:52She's saying, no, I'm waiting for someone to be delivered to me
05:56and at that moment, that's when the police show up with all the guns
06:00So Mohammadi, when they start pointing guns and saying they're going to shoot her
06:05and they're all screaming in Farsi and she's terrified
06:09Mohammadi stands between her and the guns
06:11and says, she's not a suicide bomber
06:13and they get furious with him
06:15but then one of them goes up and rips off her shador
06:18and sure enough, she's not wearing a suicide vest
06:22Mohammadi is incredibly offended that they pulled her shador off
06:26So he puts it back on and then they rip it off her again
06:29He's really angry at this point
06:31and so they drag him off
06:33but then they can't kill her
06:36because by this time, lots of people are watching
06:38and they all know that they're not a suicide bomber
06:40And now what do they do with her?
06:42So now what happens is she's taken to the Afghan National Police Headquarters
06:46and they're talking to her
06:48and now the Afghans, they weren't in on this plot, right?
06:50They were just being used
06:52and the Afghans are now talking to this woman
06:54She's not a suicide bomber
06:56She's just waiting to take her kids home to Pakistan
06:59They say fine
07:01But then the FBI hears that Afia Siddiqui has been detained in Ghazni
07:09And so they're all excited
07:11because they haven't known where she's been for the last five years
07:14They think she's an Al-Qaeda person on the run
07:17So they come swooping into Ghazni to come and arrest her
07:21So at any rate, they all come into town
07:23Meanwhile, Afia is in the ANP headquarters
07:26She's on a bed behind a curtain in a room
07:30Now, at that point, the Americans come in
07:34because they want to interrogate her
07:36but she doesn't know about this
07:38but she hears American voices
07:40And what she says is, I heard American voices
07:42I'm terrified I'm going back to more torture
07:45So I peek around the curtain
07:47and one of the soldiers says, she's on the loose
07:50and shoots her twice in the stomach
07:52And this is where the events happen
07:54which the charges that she has been convicted on
07:57this moment now is why she has been in prison for 86 years
08:02Now, I'll tell you what the Americans say
08:04The Americans say that they came into that room
08:07not knowing she was behind the curtain
08:10and they were just having a nice chat with their Afghan counterparts
08:14One of the American soldiers allegedly puts his M4 submachine gun on the ground
08:21He left it just like that
08:23The rifle is unattended on the ground
08:26And allegedly Afia grabs the gun, flips the safety catch off
08:31She starts shooting at the Americans
08:33She doesn't hit them
08:34but the heroic American pulls his pistol and shoots her
08:38And as part of the trial evidence
08:41they show these two holes in the top of the wall
08:46and say, you know, that's where the bullets must have gone
08:49that she fired
08:50Few small flaws with their theory
08:53which is that there was earlier that day a press conference
08:57in that very same room
08:59which we have the video of
09:01And those two holes were in the wall
09:03there before all of this allegedly happened
09:05So clearly that's not true
09:07They tested her for gunshot residue
09:09There's no gunshot residue on her
09:11There are no shell casings from an M4
09:13There's no bullets from an M4
09:15Honestly, honestly, it didn't happen
09:17But, you know, you've got to understand where they're coming from
09:20If they shot an unarmed woman in that room
09:23there'd been a number of trials in Afghanistan
09:26where soldiers have been put on trial
09:28for using force like that
09:30and prosecuted criminally
09:32So they're protecting
09:33They protect each other
09:34their soldiers
09:35But so in the meantime
09:37you have Afia who is traumatized
09:40She's already spent five years in prison
09:42where she has been tortured
09:44She is missing the psychological pain
09:46of not having her children
09:48So she was the one that was shot
09:51and now they have to explain this
09:53And so the trial takes place
09:56for attempts at murder
09:57First they take her back to background
09:58Everything that she feared
09:59They take her, to give them credit
10:01they take her to hospital
10:02and she comes very close to death
10:04but doesn't
10:05At that point they then, two weeks later
10:07fly her to New York
10:09to put her on trial
10:10And unfortunately
10:112008 now
10:12Now 2008
10:13July the 18th, 2008
10:15this happened
10:16August the 4th
10:17she goes to America
10:18Your problem
10:19from a defense perspective
10:21is there's a war in Afghanistan
10:23And so there are no witnesses
10:25who come to the trial
10:27who are not the witnesses
10:29the American government brought
10:31And as a result
10:32she really just doesn't have a prayer
10:34I was the first American
10:35who got to go do a full investigation
10:38What happens to her now?
10:40So she goes through this whole thing
10:43No one believes her
10:46when she says
10:47she was in American custody
10:49for five years
10:50You know
10:51And actually it's interesting
10:52The defense tries to get a hold
10:54of the CIA records
10:56and the CIA just lies
10:57and says we don't have any
11:00So she's convicted
11:02and she's sent to FMC Carswell
11:05But when she's being sentenced
11:07by Judge Berman
11:09you know
11:10he's been told all this stuff
11:11about how she's a terrorist
11:13and this, that and the other
11:15So he gives her a big enhancement
11:17and under the sentencing regime
11:20they can use stuff against you
11:22that you've not been charged with
11:25So the judge goes through
11:26all the stuff
11:27that has been said about her
11:30and enhances it
11:31And you know
11:32I'm not really blaming the judge
11:33This is what he'd been told
11:35at the time
11:36But it's all nonsense
11:38I've written so far
11:4026,000 words
11:41about everything
11:42that the judge had wrong
11:44So he enhances it
11:45from say 10 to 15 years
11:47to 86 years
11:49which means she dies in prison
11:52Maybe we could touch on
11:53the institution
11:54where Afia is being held
11:56FMC Carswell
11:58Meaning it's a federal medical center
12:01but it's really a prison
12:02Tell us what it's like
12:03inside this place
12:05I was genuinely horrified
12:06when I went there
12:07I've been to most
12:08of the maximum security prisons
12:10in America
12:11I've been to Guantanamo
12:1242 times
12:13I thought I'd seen it all
12:14But I went to FMC Carswell
12:17It's worse than Guantanamo
12:19Oh, it's way worse
12:20than Guantanamo
12:21I mean in Guantanamo
12:22I get contact visits
12:23with my clients
12:24I can sit there
12:25and eat food with them
12:26You know, they trust me
12:27I'm not going to spring
12:28someone out of prison
12:29I'm there to represent them
12:31In Carswell
12:32getting in there is hard enough
12:34I am wearing
12:35just in honor
12:36of coming on your program
12:38the very jeans
12:39that I had to buy
12:40because they wouldn't
12:41let me in the prison
12:42because I was wearing
12:43khaki trousers
12:44Why were you
12:45but they prefer jeans
12:46No, no, the women prisoners
12:47have khaki uniforms
12:48and somehow I was meant
12:49to take my trousers off
12:50and give them to
12:51I don't know what it's about
12:53But it's very hard
12:55to set things up in Carswell
12:57and the prison has
12:58a shocking reputation
13:00of rape
13:01in the last few years
13:02Rape of the female sex
13:03Rape of the female prisoners
13:05One of them
13:06was a Christian minister
13:07for goodness sake
13:09And so what's going on there?
13:10Afia told me
13:11on the very first visit
13:12about all the abuse
13:13that was going on
13:14She alleges
13:15she's been raped
13:16twice herself
13:17that she's subjected
13:18to all sorts of
13:20sexual misconduct
13:22And then, you know
13:23there are other things
13:24You know, the strip searching
13:26is bad enough
13:27So there are broader issues
13:28with the practices
13:29and the abuse
13:30that takes place
13:31inside this facility
13:32that applies
13:33to all the women there
13:34not just Afia
13:35Yeah, but I think
13:36a lot more applies
13:37to Afia
13:38because I've got
13:391089 pages
13:40of her medical records there
13:42And nowhere
13:43do they accept
13:44that she's been tortured
13:46There is no mention
13:48that her children
13:49were taken and kidnapped
13:51And they think
13:52all of this
13:53is some fantasy of hers
13:54that she made up
13:56And everything she does
13:58is a result
13:59of this incredible trauma
14:01that she's gone through
14:02They put down
14:03to her just being
14:04a bad person
14:05Whereas in fact
14:06she is the victim
14:07of all the victims
14:09So she's getting
14:10no real medical care
14:11She's had her teeth
14:12knocked out of her mouth
14:13She's deaf in her right ear
14:15where they hit her
14:16enough times
14:17And I've been trying
14:18to get independent doctors
14:19in to see her
14:20Female, Muslim women doctors
14:23which is what we need
14:25And they won't let them in
14:26She's in solitary confinement
14:29effectively in admin
14:30admin segregation
14:32She's been there every day
14:33for the last 14 years
14:35That's more than
14:36any of the other women
14:37in federal prison
14:3810,250
14:40She's been treated
14:41worse than any of them
14:42When I went there
14:43I was just so horrified
14:45I mean I'm now
14:46For now it's become
14:47a crusade for me
14:48And we're going to
14:49close that place down
14:50if it's the last thing I do
14:52Because Afia is
14:53the victim of all victims
14:54but there's a lot
14:55of other victims
14:56of a dreadful institution
14:58In terms of Afia now
15:01what is the best case
15:03scenario for her
15:04because this is a woman
15:05who's been through
15:06a great deal
15:08She's been convicted
15:10She's stuck in this
15:11terrible institution
15:12She's been tortured
15:13physically abused
15:14sexually abused
15:15What are the prospects
15:16for her release?
15:18She clearly suffers
15:19from PTSD
15:20Post Traumatic Stress Disorder
15:22because she's been tortured
15:24Now the one thing
15:25I never really thought about it
15:26until I was in Guantanamo
15:28You can't get therapy
15:29from the people
15:30who are torturing you
15:32And so she's getting
15:33no care for this
15:35incredible trauma
15:36that she's gone through
15:38And there's only one place
15:39she can get that from
15:40And that's from
15:41a loving environment
15:42with her family
15:43So she's got to get back
15:45to her family
15:47How is that going
15:48to be managed though?
15:49And psychologically
15:50to go to the country
15:51where all this began
15:53The government in a country
15:55she may feel
15:56has deeply betrayed her
15:58Well they have
15:59deeply betrayed her
16:00And this is a big problem
16:02Does this go some way
16:03to explaining why
16:04despite multiple
16:05diplomatic efforts
16:06and actually
16:07the relationship
16:08between the governments
16:09of Pakistan and
16:10the United States
16:11nothing has been done
16:12for Afia Siddiqui
16:14because there are
16:15those elements
16:16inside Pakistan
16:17that don't want her released
16:18because then it could
16:19implicate them
16:21I mean if you think about
16:22what happened in 2008
16:23A sheriff was still
16:24in power then
16:25And so this whole effort
16:27to kill Afia
16:29was by the very people
16:30who had originated
16:32the whole thing
16:34There are still people
16:36who are afraid of that
16:37Now you know
16:38to them I tell them
16:39You've got two choices
16:41You either do
16:42the right thing
16:43and do the decent thing
16:44We're not interested
16:45in making movies
16:47and Afia when she gets out
16:49This woman needs
16:50real care and love
16:53But you know
16:54if the people
16:55who are behind this stuff
16:57don't get out of the way
16:59then you know
17:00I've got no option
17:01except to expose them
17:02And I know who
17:03some of them are
17:04And I haven't named them
17:06in public
17:07And I'm not going to
17:08if they get out of the way
17:09But I will if they don't
17:11But I think we have to
17:12explore alternatives
17:13We really really need help
17:15The Afghans
17:16would take her in an instant
17:18But the Americans
17:19are probably going to be
17:20a bit loath to do business
17:22with the people
17:23they just lost the war against
17:25But you know
17:26we've got to find some way
17:27So this wouldn't be
17:28the legal route
17:29It would be a political
17:30diplomatic negotiation
17:32to remove her
17:33from this facility
17:34This politics and law
17:35I mean
17:36I'm going to file this thing
17:37in New York
17:39that's basically
17:40challenging her conviction
17:42and her sentence
17:43but also seeking
17:44compassionate release
17:45So the judge
17:46could order her release
17:48Now if the judge does that
17:50she's got to go somewhere
17:51And there are all sorts
17:52of different possibilities
17:53that we could sort out
17:54including swapping
17:55of Shaquille O'Freedy
17:57who the Pakistanis have
17:59who helped the Americans
18:00kill bin Laden
18:02So there are officials
18:03looking at these options now
18:05in Pakistan
18:06and Washington
18:07Is that right?
18:08Well I'm trying to make them
18:09look at them
18:10You know
18:11look, Representative Chairman
18:12from California
18:13is obsessed with
18:14Shaquille O'Freedy
18:15coming back to America
18:16or coming to America
18:19And so we have
18:20political support
18:22but this is not an easy thing
18:24to solve
18:25Do you think she can survive
18:27much longer
18:28in that facility
18:29which you've said
18:30is worse than
18:31Guantanamo Bay
18:32She's already been through
18:33so much
18:36Conditions, psychological,
18:37physical, emotional
18:40There's survival
18:41and survival, right?
18:42She's a very strong
18:44willed person
18:47Her biggest issue
18:49I think at some level
18:50has been
18:51thinking that she was
18:52forgotten and abandoned
18:54One project I've had
18:55is to get people
18:57to write letters
18:58to her through me
19:00because then I can
19:01send them in to her
19:03as legal mail
19:04and she can read
19:06about the people
19:07who care about her
19:08and I think that's
19:09really important
19:10It's really important
19:11to get her sister
19:12back in there
19:13so that she has
19:14human contact
19:15and so forth
19:16Why is it so difficult
19:17to get justice in America?
19:19We love to hate people
19:21and it's
19:23the Ku Klux Klan
19:24did it with black people
19:25We do it with Muslims
19:28and people we call criminals
19:30and it's a very sad
19:32element of human nature
19:34and then we set up
19:35rules that make it
19:36very difficult
19:38for someone in prison
19:39to get justice
19:40We lost our way
19:41post 9-11
19:42I hope to goodness
19:44we're going to find it again
19:46Clive Stafford-Smith
19:47thank you for joining us
19:48on Centre Stage
19:49It's really been a pleasure
19:50Thank you