In this episode of 'Billboard Unfiltered,' Billboard staffers Carl Lamarre, Trevor Anderson, and Kyle Denis debate who the new big 3 of rap are, why Tommy Richman’s debut album failed, the current state of R&B and more!
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00:00Uzi was in those conversations. I feel like Lil Baby was in those conversations as well.
00:05You know, A&R Twitter, PR Twitter, Management Twitter is sitting there thinking...
00:10What? What? What?
00:12The artists aren't the issue, I feel like, because, you know,
00:15they have been major R&B moments, I feel like, in recent years.
00:22Hey, what's going on, guys? And welcome to a fresh episode of Billboard Unfiltered.
00:26And we have the gang here. Trevor Anderson.
00:29That's right.
00:29Kyle Dennis.
00:30Yo, yo, yo.
00:31No, Damien Scott. He is on the mend, but will be back.
00:36We want to start the show because I know you were out.
00:39I didn't want to say it, but...
00:40Here we go, we got it.
00:42Let's go.
00:42We're not going to do a quick happy birthday sing, you know, a little sing-along, but...
00:45Make a little two-part harmony, you know.
00:47Happy birthday to you.
00:50Hey.
00:50Come on.
00:51Come on.
00:52Oh, you want us to go all the way in.
00:54I want a little more volume, a little more lift.
00:56Wow.
00:56I want Kyle to give you... We gave you a little something.
00:58I want Kyle to take that down.
00:59Give you a little tease.
01:00You know, we're giving it for all the viewers right now.
01:03Uh, yeah.
01:03First show was, uh, you're old.
01:06And, um...
01:07Yeah, I mean, it was...
01:08Honestly, it was a really good one.
01:09Like, there was no, like, crazy sort of all-in-one, but it was a couple events,
01:14a couple different days.
01:15Got to hang out with a lot of different friends from past, present, you know.
01:19So, you know, it's one of those things where it wasn't like a crazy blowout.
01:22We went to Aruba or nothing like that.
01:24But it was one of those ones where, like, I just really felt the love over the past week.
01:28So, you know, like...
01:30A different party every day for a week.
01:32Well, you know, it's Mr. Popularity.
01:34Honestly, it's still...
01:35Like, I still got something coming up tomorrow, you know, pull up, pull up, pull up.
01:39Treat yourself, Kyle.
01:39But, you know, it's one of those ones where you look back and you're like, you know...
01:42I know it sounds cliche and all that, but it's like, you know,
01:44I really couldn't ask for nothing else.
01:46Ain't God good, you know?
01:47Only people missing were my family back down in Texas.
01:49You know, that was the only, the only missing element.
01:52But I appreciate y'all looking out and...
01:54Of course.
01:54Another year, let's get it.
01:56Shout out to you for another year.
01:57I know you missed last week's episode, but at the tail end,
02:00we got in a conversation about the new big three.
02:06If there is one, I think we kind of came...
02:08I'm going to say kind of, because it was him and Damien.
02:10He came to me with a little, you know, not a consensus, but a two-on-one.
02:15Like, what their big three would be.
02:16It would be Kendrick, Future, Travis Scott.
02:20Thinking through that.
02:20Okay, so...
02:21Potentially.
02:22Okay, so the ground rules...
02:23Because Kendrick, obviously, is in most people's current big three.
02:27You can extend your contract.
02:28Because of his monstrous year, he is solidified as the best rapper alive.
02:35So he transfers over.
02:37And how did you take that?
02:39Um, my king is still, you know, in the top three.
02:44I am objective enough to say this is Kendrick's moment.
02:47This is his time right now.
02:49But if I had to, my three would probably be Kendrick, Future, and Drake.
02:57So Travis is not in it for me right now.
03:00I'm not mad at that, but it's so funny how it's like,
03:04the new big three are the niggas who've been running...
03:06Like, this could have been the same case five years ago.
03:09So you know what?
03:10It's just funny that it's like...
03:11This is fair.
03:12And I do have a modern day big three.
03:15And none of those guys are included.
03:18So I would probably go Travis.
03:20I would probably go Rod Wave.
03:22And I would probably go Playboi Carti.
03:24You know I put it over Rod?
03:26I put Tyler over Rod.
03:28The creator?
03:29Okay.
03:29Yeah.
03:29I'm not mad at that.
03:30I think that combo of his acclaim, his success.
03:34We know he can sell.
03:34We know he can tour well.
03:36We know he can headline major festivals.
03:38He's beloved across genres.
03:41He's kind of lacking in a handful of real pop hits.
03:45But he has songs that people know for sure.
03:47So I feel like he's a name that doesn't get thrown around as much,
03:50but deserves a little bit more consideration in these conversations.
03:53Because he's been pretty consistent on an upward trajectory,
03:56I feel like, for the past couple years.
03:58Yeah.
03:58I like that pick because he's somebody who came in early 2010.
04:01Yeah.
04:02Yeah.
04:02And he is...
04:03Since Flower Boy, he just found his groove.
04:06Never looked back.
04:07So I do like that pick.
04:08I mean, Trev, what is your big three?
04:11If there is a new big three.
04:13You know, part of me...
04:14That was a good tease.
04:15Because part of me...
04:16We even talk about this.
04:17It's like, it just feels like we're in such a unique moment of...
04:22Almost like sports.
04:23Like, you know, where you have these goats all going at the same time.
04:26And it's just kind of hard to think,
04:29okay, who's going to be the ones to put up these same kind of numbers,
04:32or these same kind of cultural events.
04:34And it's a little tough because I was, you know,
04:36I mean, I try to look at stats and numbers and everything.
04:38And those main three are still washing the conversation.
04:41Like, we didn't even mention Cole, for example.
04:42I mean, Cole is in the mix.
04:43But, and you could say, okay,
04:45maybe Cole's last album was a little cooler than the ones before.
04:48You know, where's his status?
04:49But he's still a huge gap amongst a lot of those kids.
04:52I think the only thing with Tyler,
04:53I do love Tyler in the sense of,
04:56I think what he presents is where hip hop is going
05:01in terms of, you know, not only just the music that he can put out,
05:04but also different kind of sounds, different kind of looks.
05:06Like, very fashion forward.
05:08One of the first ones to really, you know,
05:10take that and run in the past couple of years
05:11and build his own kind of empire on that side.
05:14The only thing about Tyler is,
05:16I feel like he just drops almost too inconsistently.
05:19That I wish, you know,
05:20I wish there were a little, you know.
05:22What is his schedule like?
05:23It was like, what, every two would I have?
05:24I was going to say, so what was the last one?
05:26Call Me was 2022 or one?
05:28I think it was one.
05:29One, we got a Deluxe version in February.
05:30But it kind of had like, it had life in multiple iterations.
05:33Like, the vinyl came out way later at one point.
05:35The Deluxe came out.
05:36It kind of had this crazy long tail
05:38that's probably just going to be unusual for anybody.
05:41Igor was 19?
05:42Yes.
05:43Okay.
05:43Igor was 19.
05:44So, I mean, it's like, we're probably due for one now.
05:47I just feel like, you know, compared to the other ones.
05:49I mean, Kendrick obviously is pretty slow too.
05:52And maybe we got lucky this year with the beat.
05:53But, you know, Drake, Future.
05:55I mean, we see them just continually rack up.
05:58Megan, you know.
05:59I mean, Nicki, besides, you know,
06:01even with features and things like that.
06:03Even if they're not putting out their own albums,
06:04they're still present in that way.
06:06And Tyler's really, you know, very selective.
06:09That doesn't mean anything about quality.
06:12Let me make that very clear.
06:13The quality is still outstanding.
06:16But I kind of just wish like he was a little more present in that mind.
06:20That's my only kind of thing.
06:21Yeah.
06:23Low-key, somebody I was trying to think of,
06:27you know, different permutations.
06:28I know one thing we sort of mentioned in a pre-chat was,
06:31you know, if there's a woman who could be in that big three conversation.
06:35And I was going through and I was like, well, I mean,
06:37obviously Nicki's the first one that comes to mind.
06:39But low-key, I'm gonna still go on this hill and say Doja Cat.
06:44I was gonna say, yeah.
06:45Doja Cat wraps her ass off.
06:48I don't, you know, it's just,
06:49and I think it's especially interesting for her
06:51because she clearly has pop sensibilities like no other.
06:54I mean, you know, she knows how to make a pop hit,
06:56craft a hook, things like that.
06:57So the songs are sticky.
06:58And I just think the different cadences that she uses.
07:01I mean, you know, when I heard Agoura Hills for the first time,
07:03you swear it's a feature because it's almost like,
07:05who is doing it?
07:06It's like Doja Cat's alley girl accent.
07:08Then she flips it.
07:09You know, all her products have a little rap taste to them.
07:12So I think, you know, coming off Scarlet,
07:15I mean, we'll see if she doubles down on another rap album
07:17at some point or where it takes her.
07:19But I think, you know, that she can go toe-to-toe with anybody
07:22on any of their tracks.
07:23And I mean, live as well.
07:25You know, the tour came out about a year ago.
07:27The breast control, like, and you just see everything from,
07:29you know, songs that weren't even hit,
07:31like Tia Tamera or something.
07:32They'll go crazy.
07:33Like that song, you know, technically on Doja Cat's list,
07:37it's down there.
07:38But it's like, just play that shit through
07:40and everybody goes hard.
07:41So, I mean, I feel like if she really wanted to,
07:44you know, consolidate and run that lane,
07:46she would be, I mean,
07:47she'd be right up there with anybody.
07:48I also want to give her props for, like,
07:50Scarlet being, like, a well-done era.
07:53Like, proper lead-in with attention.
07:55Like, obviously the big hit is Painted Town Red.
07:58The album did well.
07:58It gets a deluxe version.
08:00She has her own tour that she's doing arenas across the world.
08:02Like, everything was really well done for a moment for her
08:06that seemed pretty contentious.
08:07We were like, can she pull off this, like,
08:09actual hip-hop rap era?
08:11And she just did it almost effortlessly.
08:13Like, I gotta give her her props for that, for sure.
08:15Yeah, and I think for me,
08:16it's kind of a gift and a curse, right?
08:17You kind of saying, like,
08:19if she devoted herself full-time to this,
08:23sky's the limit, you know?
08:24And I think for me,
08:25that's probably why I'm a little reluctant
08:27to put her up there.
08:28Because, you know, rap is not her go-to, you know?
08:32I mean, yeah, I know what you mean.
08:33It's like, if you're going to be in it,
08:35you got to live it.
08:36Commit to it.
08:36And, I mean, well, give me Scarlet, too.
08:41I'm just like, is she not committing to it?
08:43Like...
08:44I mean, to be fair, because I think even with Scarlet,
08:45you know, I'm sure a lot of people probably thought,
08:47and I know people say, of course,
08:48Paint the Town Red is, you know,
08:49kind of skirts both lines.
08:50It was up for pop Grammys,
08:51and obviously, it was a big hit on pop radio.
08:53But, you know, it's almost one of those things
08:55where I think when Scarlet was coming up,
08:57people were not sure if she was going to even fully commit.
09:00Are there going to be a couple rap songs?
09:01Is it going to be rap-heavy?
09:02Is it going to be, you know,
09:04we'll sprinkle in a couple safe pop hits
09:06because surely you would think, you know,
09:08the label, you know, the fans,
09:09the radio would kind of want, like,
09:11okay, you know, you just coming off playing in her.
09:13You running pop radio.
09:14You running rhythm radio.
09:16You got to give us a, you know,
09:17give us a little something.
09:18And she was like, nah, this, you know,
09:21Paint the Town Red is as good as you're going to get.
09:23Yeah.
09:23I mean, thanks to her credit,
09:24she did, like, that first taste was attention.
09:26And, like, that was a straight rap track.
09:28And I think it was Grammy-nominated?
09:30Like...
09:31I think, yeah, yeah.
09:32Yeah.
09:32I mean, and choosing that as a lead-in,
09:34definitely was a signal.
09:36I think for me as well, again, I love Doja.
09:39And I remember writing this essay
09:41about her slow burn to superstardom.
09:43I think what she needs to do to bolster her resume,
09:47she just needs a number one album.
09:49Like, I think it's pretty interesting
09:51that that's a glaring mark on her resume,
09:55a blemish on her resume.
09:56She still does not have one.
09:57She's more than capable.
09:58Is that a mark for Meg too?
09:59But you don't think...
10:00Yeah, I kind of like it.
10:02That's where it gets a little sticky for me,
10:04because Meg put out to me
10:05an amazing body of work this year.
10:08Still, that number one album
10:10is missing from her catalog.
10:12And I feel like for her, it's kind of like...
10:15Remember that was the thing with Nicki,
10:16where it was like,
10:16yo, she still don't got a number one single.
10:19And Nicki's still Nicki,
10:20but it was kind of like the chip on her shoulder.
10:22She needed to prove that she was able to get that.
10:25But I also, like, gotta contextualize it
10:27in terms of, like, the landscape of female rap.
10:29It's only two female rappers who are active now
10:32who have a number one album under their belt.
10:34It's Nicki and Cardi.
10:35Okay, I thought you got it.
10:36It's like...
10:36You're making sure I got it.
10:37Nah, it's like Nicki and Cardi.
10:39It's like...
10:39I was gonna make sure you threw Cardi in there.
10:41Oh, oh, okay.
10:42I gotta be honest.
10:44Well, I was waiting for that Lauryn Hill line,
10:46and I was like...
10:47No, like, we pull it back to...
10:49Nah, they're the only two.
10:51So I'm just like, you know,
10:52it seems to be easier for the guys
10:54to get the numbers to go number one,
10:56where I feel like that's a bit more of a requirement
10:58for them to be in the conversation.
11:00Not saying I'm lowering the bar in any kind of way,
11:03but I am being cognizant that, like,
11:05the landscape is a bit different
11:07when it comes to the women in, like, selling albums
11:09and selling full projects and stuff like that.
11:12But ain't nothing to knock about a top three or top five
11:14in, like, multiple, you know, consecutive top three,
11:16top five projects either.
11:17Like, rather that than one number one album
11:20and then you don't see the top five ever again after that.
11:22Right, that's fair.
11:23And I think just somebody for me that's a dark horse
11:26is probably Uzi.
11:29Uzi was in those conversations.
11:30I feel like Lil Baby was in those conversations as well.
11:34Yo, Uzi was, like, a lot of Cats' favorite artists,
11:37right around 2017, 18.
11:39You hear a lot of artists talking about, like,
11:41who excites you, who you, you know, listening to.
11:43And Uzi was usually right there at the top of the list, so.
11:46Any thoughts on Lil Baby?
11:47Yeah, I was gonna say.
11:49Are we clipping it?
11:50Remember, he was just, before this album,
11:52he was on top of the moon.
11:54Yeah, I mean, my turn was a crazy, you know.
11:56It was a monster, yeah.
11:58Biggest album of that year in 2020,
12:00and obviously it was a crazy year.
12:02But for him to consistently have that from,
12:04I think the album came out in, like, May or so.
12:05And this is, you know, this is a time when, like,
12:08I mean, The Weeknd had albums, you know, Lady Gaga, Dua Lipa.
12:12I mean, there was no,
12:12even though the pandemic interrupted,
12:14there were still some huge heavyweights putting them out.
12:16And the fact that he was able to eclipse them all,
12:18you know, without necessarily that crazy pop hit,
12:21that number one, you know.
12:21He even taper dropped two albums that year.
12:24Like, and he still was the number one album that year.
12:26Bigger Picture was a moment in time.
12:28Yeah.
12:29Yeah, I remember that Grammy performance and everything.
12:31It was like one of the,
12:32definitely in terms of hip hop,
12:33one of the most memorable ones, you know,
12:35in the past five, six years, easy.
12:37Definitely, definitely.
12:38So curious, guys, you know,
12:40let us know your thoughts in the comments.
12:41Who are y'all big three?
12:43Definitely want to see that.
12:46Next up, whoo, the good brother, man.
12:52Tommy, Tommy, Tommy Richmond.
12:55Um, he released his debut album, Coyote,
13:00um, a few weeks ago.
13:02It did not land on the Billboard 200.
13:05It sold a meager 4,300 copies.
13:10Now, I think it's important to state
13:13that this album did not include his Hot 100 banger,
13:17uh, Million Dollar Baby,
13:19uh, Double the Lie was not on the project as well.
13:22So he snipped those two tracks.
13:25And said, fuck it, I'm still a star.
13:27I'm gonna show y'all what I do.
13:29Did not land.
13:30And he also was in some hot water about
13:32some comments he made on X
13:35about not being a hip hop artist.
13:38But in contraire,
13:40Million Dollar Baby is potentially up
13:43for hip hop categories at next year's Grammys.
13:47So a lot to unpack here,
13:49but let's try to get through it.
13:50Let's first talk about him not even landing on the 200.
13:53Are we surprised about that or not, Kyle?
13:55I, you know, given that the two singles
13:58are not on the album,
13:59I'm not entirely surprised.
14:01I did think there would be enough interest
14:04generally in Tommy Richman
14:05to at least land on the chart.
14:07So him missing it completely
14:08is a bit of a shocker for me.
14:11But I also do just straight up respect
14:14him sticking to his guns
14:15and putting out a project
14:16that he felt 100% confident in.
14:18And in that iteration of that project,
14:20it did not include those two singles.
14:21And I respect that.
14:23If they didn't fit for you,
14:24they didn't fit thematically or sonically,
14:26and they didn't, you know,
14:27belong on the album,
14:28don't put them on the album,
14:29just to run up numbers.
14:30Like, I can respect that.
14:33But-
14:34That was, I mean,
14:35I doubled a million dollar baby
14:36easily could have gotten to 10,000.
14:38It could have.
14:38Which is kind of crazy to me.
14:40But I also do respect the tenacity
14:42of like a breakthrough artist being like,
14:43you know what?
14:44I actually don't care
14:46what numbers this project does.
14:48I want my first, you know,
14:50my debut album to be as truthful
14:53and as honest to myself
14:54and my artistry is like,
14:55as it possibly can be.
14:56And if that means that
14:57my biggest hit isn't on it,
14:58then my biggest hit isn't on it.
14:59I just probably would be
15:01a little bit, you know,
15:02less talkative.
15:05Yeah, I wonder how the label
15:07is feeling right now.
15:08Trev?
15:09Yeah, I mean,
15:09I think Kyle hit it on the head.
15:10Like, you know, artistically, okay.
15:13And he's not the first to,
15:14you know, like, look,
15:17I mean, some people looking at
15:18like Chapel Row, for example,
15:19wondering why, you know,
15:20Good Luck Babe came out
15:21after the album.
15:22She can attack that on,
15:23got those points,
15:24maybe put that album.
15:25That's in the number two.
15:26So it's already a success without it,
15:27but could be a number one, maybe.
15:30So, you know, it's not the first to do it.
15:32And look, if you feel like, you know,
15:34only Tommy Richmond knows
15:35what a Tommy Richmond album
15:36is supposed to sound like.
15:37You know, when I heard the album,
15:38it's, it doesn't sound crazy.
15:39Like, it's not like,
15:40oh, I can clearly see
15:41why Million Dollar Baby,
15:42whatnot, like,
15:43it doesn't sound different to me
15:45where it wouldn't have fit.
15:47But okay, so Tommy knows
15:48what he wants to do.
15:49Maybe it's to prove, you know,
15:50something.
15:50Maybe this is just not in his,
15:52you know, in the landscape.
15:53And maybe it's one of those things
15:54where Million Dollar Baby
15:55was just a single that came through.
15:57And when they saw how well it did,
15:58then you kind of green light the album.
16:00And that had, that always
16:01had a different vision with it.
16:03Now, I'm sure from a business point of view,
16:05you know, everybody, you know,
16:07A&R Twitter, PR Twitter,
16:08management Twitter is sitting there
16:09thinking, what, what, what?
16:13Like, you know, can we, you know,
16:15throw it onto the bonus track,
16:16throw, you know, you can,
16:17you can somehow separate it
16:18and still include it in the same way.
16:20Because I'm sure, you know,
16:22when Million Dollar Baby dropped,
16:24we all thought, you know,
16:25okay, whoa, Tommy Richmond
16:26is really about to maybe reset,
16:28you know, the new artist race
16:29and really put himself in that,
16:31in that conversation.
16:32And yeah, I mean, the singles since then
16:34have all kind of slid back.
16:35You know, Devil Is Alive
16:37was a step back from Million Dollar Baby,
16:38Thought You Were The One
16:39was a step back, Whitney.
16:40So it doesn't seem like there's really
16:42a big buzzing hit
16:43that's going to come through.
16:44So especially when you look at
16:45the legacy of the album, like,
16:47oh, at least we could,
16:47at least it could have made the 200,
16:49you know, maybe it would have,
16:51you know, got some more legs out of it.
16:53But to just sort of miss that on the resume,
16:55I'm sure, you know,
16:56people are going to scratch their heads
16:57and sort of wonder,
16:58okay, you know,
17:00maybe we need to sit down
17:02and show them the graph and say,
17:04this is the album with Million Dollar Baby
17:07and this is the album without it.
17:10Clearly the man made his choice
17:11and, you know, he must be.
17:12I feel like it's just like a business
17:14versus art thing for him, really.
17:17Do I care that much?
17:19You know, and it's interesting, right?
17:21Because part of me was wondering
17:22if he was taking a page from Abel's book
17:25when Abel first came out
17:26in terms of being kind of preshy and elusive.
17:29He's only done, like,
17:30since Million Dollar Baby has blown up,
17:32two interviews, one with us
17:35and then with Zane Lowe.
17:36And he's been very-
17:37I'm hoping, shout out, Billboard,
17:39for that, you know, that T-Rich, baby.
17:41Come on.
17:42Written by me, by the way.
17:43But no, like,
17:44I was just talking to him as well.
17:47He's very intentional
17:48about some of the decisions he makes.
17:50So to Kyle's point and your point, Trevor,
17:52like, him being intentional about,
17:54I'm going to show you
17:55I'm still ill without these records.
17:57I can respect that.
17:58Yeah, yeah.
17:59I can respect that.
18:00Artistically, you have to.
18:01And he has this certain Moxie-ing confidence,
18:03like I remember talking to him
18:05and he was just like, yo, bro,
18:06like, cats may laugh at me now,
18:08but I'm pretty sure
18:09I'm going to be performing
18:10at the Super Bowl one day.
18:12And this-
18:15Yo, you ain't shit, man.
18:17Brothers could dream, man.
18:18I mean, I'm right there with him.
18:20I'm right there with him.
18:21But I can respect that kind of,
18:21you know what I'm saying?
18:22But cats are going to sit there and sing,
18:23because you know what's good?
18:24Because I bet you, I bet Tom Richmond
18:26in the same point of view,
18:27flip it back six months,
18:29cats never thought I would have
18:30a number two debut hit out of the gate.
18:32They said he keeps trying.
18:33He keeps putting out these little songs.
18:34I don't know why none of them are working.
18:36None of them's doing nothing.
18:37And then y'all didn't believe in that.
18:39So, you know, maybe in the long tail,
18:41he's like, y'all don't believe in the album.
18:42And maybe it's a slow burn.
18:44Maybe there's some, you know,
18:44something catches on virally.
18:46And maybe in a year, you know,
18:48he'll come back with that two for two
18:49and say, yeah, don't doubt me now.
18:51And yeah, in the grand scheme of things,
18:53again, he's, he had a number two song
18:56in the country amid the freaking
18:58Kendrick Drake that it came out
19:00and was still landing and sticking.
19:02Yeah.
19:03So that says something.
19:04So Tommy, you know,
19:06irregardless of this dismal performance
19:09on the 200, still a win in my book.
19:11Yeah.
19:12You know, I think of somebody
19:13like Tito Touchdown.
19:14Oh, yeah.
19:15We've spoke about before.
19:16Did not, debut album did not land
19:18on the 200, was acclaimed.
19:21And he was still landing these features.
19:23He's still, you know, opening up
19:25for Travis Scott on his tour.
19:26Like he's still making an impact out here.
19:29So just because you guys don't necessarily
19:32kill it on the 200, it's not end all be all.
19:34A la Doja Cat.
19:36People forget about Amala.
19:38Right.
19:38That's the actual debut right there.
19:40Yeah.
19:40Yeah.
19:41But I mean, let's not act like Doja Cat
19:42had the momentum of a Tommy Rich.
19:45Honestly, to that point though,
19:47I feel like Million Dollar Baby
19:49might've had too much momentum
19:50to the point where like,
19:51if it was attached to the album,
19:52we still would just be talking
19:53about a Million Dollar Baby
19:54and not the tracks on the album.
19:56Regardless, like even after
19:58Million Dollar Baby dropped,
19:59Devil's Alive had a little bit of noise
20:01for those first two, three weeks.
20:02And then it's kind of took it back
20:03to the conversation again.
20:04And like you said, the later singles
20:06would be less and less noise.
20:07So if it was already looking like that
20:08before the album arrived,
20:10I kind of understand why he doesn't want
20:12to attach the two things right now.
20:13And you know, nothing's stopping him
20:15from, you know, by April next year,
20:17a little Deluxe Edition comes out
20:18and tax those two back on.
20:20Like it's early in the cycle.
20:22I mean, we do do this thing where,
20:24you know, unfortunately, and I get it.
20:27Like we're all excited for somebody
20:28when that first song hits.
20:29So, you know, that thing connects.
20:31We are all like, okay, the album,
20:33where's the album?
20:33Bring the album, you know?
20:35And we set these high expectations
20:36where it's like, okay, if you got
20:37a number two single off this album,
20:39you better have a number two album
20:40to match it or something.
20:41And, you know, I think we see like,
20:43again, with acts like Teezo
20:44and even established acts, you know,
20:46where we're seeing, you know,
20:48artists crack the top 10 for the first time.
20:50Like someone like, like a Party Next Door
20:51we were talking earlier, you know,
20:53him getting that top 10.
20:55We see something like Doja Cat,
20:56who clearly has so many pop hits
20:57under her belt, mentioned that she,
20:59you know, has yet to crack number one.
21:00So we set these high, high expectations
21:03at a time where almost,
21:05you know, it feels unrealistic
21:07to put that on them.
21:07Almost like with the touring artists
21:09where people say,
21:10we're booking too big arenas too quickly.
21:12It's like, you know, maybe,
21:13maybe we got to just use this kind of moment
21:16and relook at everything
21:17and temper our expectations
21:19about not like to say, you know,
21:21you can't clear this bar, you can't make it,
21:23but really have a realistic look at,
21:25you know, what does success look like
21:27and how do we measure and qualify
21:29and talk about what a successful debut is,
21:32even if it doesn't make number one
21:34or top 10 or something like that,
21:36it can still be a win.
21:37How do we feel about his,
21:39I'm not hip hop comment?
21:41But then again, on the contrary.
21:44You know, he's allegedly submitted
21:45for best melodic rap performance
21:48and best rap song for million dollar baby.
21:52Now, you know, the lawyer,
21:53the lawyer will come out and say,
21:56you know, if you read the tweet,
21:57Tommy said he not a hip hop artist.
22:00But that, I mean, he is right.
22:02That's gonna be a hip hop song.
22:04You see how, the loophole you see,
22:06I'm just saying, you know.
22:08Shots of money long with the loophole, by the way.
22:10She didn't think Cas was gonna catch it for me.
22:12Good for her.
22:12Pointed it out.
22:13I got a roundup of all the live versions
22:15that were submitted are coming out soon.
22:16Yo, money selling.
22:17We getting, we getting that grand.
22:21I'll bet you I will be in that R&B field.
22:23But Tommy, I mean, that whole conversation
22:25just kind of felt like deja vu
22:28from the Post Malone era
22:30before, you know, we get to country version of him.
22:32And it's like the latest example
22:34in really decades upon decades
22:37of white artists being able to maneuver
22:40through genre labels on a whim.
22:41Whereas we still have to deal
22:43with six years worth of discourse
22:44if Beyonce can call her album like country or not.
22:46Like there's a benefit that Tommy gets
22:50just by being aligned with hip hop culture.
22:53Whether that's just the cultural cache of black cool
22:57or whether that's like algorithms helping him
23:00his song pop up alongside other hip hop
23:02adjacent or other hip hop songs.
23:04So like he has every right to call himself
23:07what he wants to call himself.
23:09But there, you know, he doesn't exist in a vacuum.
23:11He does also exist in the context
23:12of this specific industry in this specific time.
23:15And whether he likes it or not
23:17the breakthrough song has him in hip hop circles.
23:21And he's got to be cognizant of that
23:22when he makes those grand statements and stuff like that.
23:25But, you know, he wasn't being rude
23:29or facetious or like, you know,
23:30any ill intent behind what he was saying.
23:33But it is just taxing and tiring
23:36to have to have this conversation
23:38over and over and over again.
23:40And it feels like it just happens
23:41like every three years now, every two years now.
23:43It's like a white artist who breaks through
23:46when they do hip hop adjacent circles
23:47has their whole like, I'm not hip hop.
23:49I'm not R&B moment.
23:50And it's like, whenever a black artist
23:52wants to do anything like that
23:53there's always so much pushback
23:55and so much hoopla around it.
23:58But I don't know, I will say,
24:02I don't know where else I would have put
24:04Million Dollar Baby at the Grammys though.
24:06So like this kind of, this feels fitting.
24:08I wouldn't want to see this like
24:10next to Lucky Day in the R&B categories.
24:12And it doesn't make sense
24:14next to Sabrina Carpenter in the pop categories.
24:16So I understand that.
24:17It is just kind of funny how the timing worked out
24:20that like three days later submissions leaked
24:21and it was like, I thought she wasn't hip hop.
24:24But, you know.
24:25And I wonder too, I mean, you know, also to go off that
24:28just because you submit something in a category
24:30doesn't mean it's going to be accepted and taken.
24:32So it'll be interesting to see if, you know
24:35the Grammy sort of rap body accepts that in the nomination
24:38or if they try to kick it to pop or something.
24:40I mean, it had, it had kind of legs in life
24:42in a lot of different circles.
24:43So there are a couple of places it could land.
24:46I do agree.
24:46Mnemonic rap is probably makes the most sense.
24:48Yeah.
24:49And I'm also kind of curious
24:50what Tommy would call himself.
24:51Like, you know, just because he said
24:53he's not a hip hop artist.
24:55You know, I mean, not for nothing.
24:58You know, if he and Shaboosie kind of come
24:59from the same cloth in terms of the area and the styles.
25:02And I mean, Shaboosie clearly is someone else who's,
25:05you know, having people scratch their heads
25:06about how do we call it?
25:08You know, are you country?
25:09Are you rap?
25:10Are you, you know, a little bit of everything.
25:11So, you know, maybe it's just something
25:13that in that Virginia.
25:15Come on, Virginia.
25:16You know, they kind of got to mix everything over there.
25:18Yeah, exactly.
25:19So, but definitely, I mean, I think this also makes me wonder
25:23what album number two, you know.
25:25When, if that comes, you know.
25:29I mean, listen.
25:29Some people, hey, some folks only put out one album.
25:31I don't know, you know.
25:32I think just to put a bow on this,
25:34Brent Faiyaz, Where Are You?
25:37Because the reality is this is his artist.
25:40You know, so it's kind of weird
25:42for your artist's debut album.
25:43You know, they had to really champion him publicly.
25:46And I know Brent has always just been naturally
25:49a laid back guy, you know, behind the scenes.
25:52But you would think somebody who had a number two song
25:55in a country, you'd kind of want to stand next to him.
25:57But then, you know, I feel like Cat's also,
25:59that crutch comes in, you know, where it's like,
26:02oh, like, oh, you got to have Brent come out and support,
26:04you know, your album.
26:04It also was just, it feels so, like, anti-Brent.
26:07Brent should be, like, front facing like that.
26:09Like, he barely is even in the mix,
26:12but he's not on his own album cycle.
26:13So, like, to see him for a time, I'd be like, damn.
26:16I don't know, I feel like more than ever,
26:18if you step into an executive role,
26:20you got to make executive decisions.
26:22And you got to do things that may be uncomfortable,
26:24which is, like, getting in that spotlight
26:27and trying to push your artists.
26:29Especially, yo, Tommy did the easy part.
26:31He got a hit.
26:32All you got to do is come outside with him.
26:34The easy part.
26:36All you got to do is get a hit, folks.
26:38That's all you got to do.
26:38Just get a, just go and get your number two hit.
26:40Just go and pick one up at the lobby on your way out
26:43and grab you a number two hit, you know?
26:46But I think this opens up a way bigger discussion.
26:50And we were talking about it ahead of the show.
26:52The state of R&B.
26:54We are in a very interesting place right now,
26:56where it is not performing at its best,
27:00you know, versus previous years.
27:01This year, we've only had Usher and Party Next Door
27:05debut top 10 on the Billboard 200.
27:11And a long list of artists that dropped this year
27:14includes Kehlani, Money Long, Bryson Tiller.
27:19Tinashe.
27:20Tinashe.
27:20Norbats, Lucky Day.
27:22Lucky Day.
27:22Armani, Megan Lene, Chloe.
27:25It keeps going.
27:27It keeps going, you know?
27:29And it's kind of alarming and scary knowing that
27:32we have so many talented R&B artists,
27:34but yet they're not able to crack that top 10.
27:39So what can we do?
27:40If there's anything to remedy of it,
27:42what are y'all thoughts on the current state of R&B?
27:44Is there anybody that can help fix and resurrect the genre?
27:48From a commercial standpoint.
27:51Man, you know...
27:52It's loaded, I know.
27:53I know.
27:54It's just one of those questions that it's funny that,
27:56you know, I know people have sort of
27:59had wrong about it for a couple of years now.
28:01That, okay, what's going on with R&B?
28:02Why is R&B not connected?
28:04Why is it not connected?
28:05I mean, me personally, I think it's just,
28:09you know, I think it's just changed in a sense.
28:11Like, and what I mean by that is,
28:14I do think that the quality of the music is always there.
28:18Like, I think, you know, it's not a situation
28:21where it's just like,
28:21oh, the R&B songs aren't good anymore.
28:24I think one thing I think that's changed
28:25is maybe the tempo in general is much,
28:27you know, slower, more moody.
28:29I mean, I think some of the biggest R&B stars out there,
28:32people like Summer Walker or Jhené.
28:34I mean, even some of the guys we named like Lucky.
28:37There's a mood shift that I think kind of for most people only,
28:42you know, there's only a certain time and place for that.
28:45I've always advocated that I think what's open
28:48is sort of the up-tempo lane.
28:50I think maybe Chris gets in there a couple of times,
28:52but I'm surprised that, you know,
28:54more people haven't tried a higher tempo track.
28:56I think it's something, even something like Pressure,
28:58Ari Lennox, it's a great example of like,
29:00you know, it's not necessarily like an up-tempo dance track,
29:03but it's got some bounce to it.
29:04It's got some flavor.
29:05Like, I think it's a good track that just sort of works,
29:08you know, on radio anytime of day you can put it on.
29:10And it's not like, you know, are we changing the mood?
29:12Are we changing the pace?
29:13Are we changing the tempo?
29:14It's just like a good bouncy sort of sample-laden track
29:17that to me was like, oh, and to me it's no coincidence
29:20that that's her biggest hit.
29:22You know, it cracked the Hot 100.
29:23It's a huge radio hit.
29:25So I think personally that I would like to see more artists
29:30get in that bag.
29:31And I think, you know, when R&B was at its peak
29:33in terms of commercial success, you know,
29:35when you're thinking about Destiny's Child or Usher
29:38or some of those cats,
29:39they were able to marry the ballads, you know,
29:42with also up-tempo stuff.
29:44Be Without You can be a crazy hit,
29:45but Family Affair for Mary is, you know,
29:47get us right on the dance floor, get us crunk,
29:49and it doesn't lose any sense of, you know,
29:51oh, there's no sense of, oh, is it too poppy?
29:54Is she kind of abandoning?
29:55It's like, no, this is straight R&B,
29:57Dr. Dre produced, hip hop flair,
30:00and it gets people moving and grooving.
30:01And I think, especially, you know, sort of post-pandemic,
30:04I think people want, you know, a little more liveliness,
30:07a little more, you know, excitement in their music.
30:09I think even in the pop space,
30:10we've had kind of this down-tempo,
30:12you know, kind of sad boy, sad girl pop moment.
30:15And I think for those who can break out
30:17and do something fun,
30:18like whether it's, you know, a Shaboosie,
30:20not like us clearly being, you know,
30:22the crazy records, all that stuff.
30:24It's like-
30:25But I think it's interesting, right?
30:26Because look at somebody like Money,
30:27who has two top 20 records.
30:29They are very slow.
30:30Those are like slow churning.
30:31Yeah, I feel like the artists aren't the issue,
30:36I feel like, because, you know,
30:37there have been major R&B moments,
30:40I feel like in recent years.
30:41You mentioned the two Money Long records,
30:43obviously Snooze, I See You Coco,
30:46Over, Lucky Day, My Mama Victoria.
30:49Like these are all R&B moments that are straight,
30:52you know, R&B tracks that were having
30:54a little bit of crossover moments in their own right.
30:56I think what's hurting R&B right now
30:59is the continued sort of coupling with hip hop
31:02in every conversation.
31:03Like rarely do we get to kind of just see
31:05like R&B standalone now as its own genres.
31:08I was like hip hop slash R&B, R&B slash hip hop.
31:11And then the rap artists in that coalesced version
31:14of the genre start to dominate the conversation
31:17and the resources and the attention.
31:19And it's like, what happens to the people
31:20who are just making straight R&B music
31:22and not straddling the line in that way?
31:25I feel like in terms of just how they get looked at
31:30from the consumer side and from, you know,
31:32the business side of it all,
31:34they need a little bit more structure and support maybe.
31:37Like I just, I think that hurts it a little bit.
31:41I mean, and that kind of goes back
31:42to a larger conversation that was happening
31:44on Twitter last week or X last week
31:48in light of the whole Tommy Richmond thing.
31:49Like what have been the ramifications of hip hop
31:54and R&B becoming hip hop slash R&B
31:56in the past like 30 years?
31:58And what has that done to both sides
31:59of what that double genre looks like now?
32:02Can I pose y'all this question?
32:04Why do you think SZA has been able to be such a stalwart
32:07and penetrate R&B like no other in the modern era?
32:13I want to say because her roots are more alt
32:15than people actually give her credit for.
32:17Like that mixtape run before Control
32:19was like super alternative music.
32:21Like it's not necessarily like your soul-based R&B.
32:25And I think that let her get a foothold
32:27in a different audience and alongside bringing
32:30in the R&B audience later, a little bit later on.
32:33And then like the rap audience through the TDE connection.
32:35She has a wider base to play with, I feel like
32:38than some of her contemporaries.
32:40That's like where my mind immediately goes.
32:41Like when I first encountered SZA
32:43it wasn't necessarily through an R&B song.
32:45Okay.
32:46Yeah, I would think a lot like to that point,
32:48a lot of outlets like that cover SZA in a different way.
32:52Like, you know, SZA is very much in line
32:55with Pitchfork and Stereogum.
32:57And not that they necessarily are the arbiters of culture
33:00but to Kyle's point, like that is a different audience,
33:03a different reader base, you know
33:04and especially one that has a lot of trust
33:06with those consumers.
33:07Like, hey, if we're telling you this is good,
33:09you know, at least check it out.
33:11And a lot of people clearly did check it out, love it.
33:13And the run-up I think was also important
33:16in just establishing her like, you know
33:18mixtape by mixtape, strong consistency in projects.
33:21And I think it just led to that control explosion.
33:24And then of course, you know, based off that SOS,
33:26you know, we're all anticipating it for five years.
33:28What's it going to be?
33:29What's it going to do?
33:29But the fact that she does a song
33:31like Phoebe Bridgers, for example.
33:33F2F is a whole ass rock song.
33:35Like an all pop punk song, like those kinds of things.
33:37Those kinds of moments also help round her out
33:39in a way where maybe you wouldn't get in
33:40through Kill Bill or Snooze or something
33:42but maybe, you know, it is Ghost in the Machine.
33:45Maybe it's something else.
33:45And I think she's kind of played well.
33:47And her podcast, she's doing like Maroon 5 collabs
33:50Kiss Me More with SZA, like Black Panther soundtrack.
33:53Like that all happens before we get to SOS.
33:56So it's like, she, her career is a little bit different
34:00I feel like than her R&B contemporaries.
34:04What I hope happens is that we have another year
34:06like 2012 where we got like Channel Orange, Trilogy,
34:11Kaleidoscope, Dream.
34:12It kind of felt like a reset for the genre
34:14in terms of like where people were going.
34:15That year we also got like Tinashe's first two mixtapes
34:18that were like super like dreamy R&B,
34:21kind of like alternative R&B.
34:22Like I thought you had a cast on like Gale.
34:25In case we dream like Reverie or something like that.
34:27Like another year where we just get a lot of landmark
34:30records that just kind of give us a new path forward.
34:33I think is needed.
34:35I don't know when that happens or who that's going to be, but.
34:37Yeah.
34:38I mean, I'm also, I mean, to that point, it's 2016 too.
34:40Same year, same kind of situation where, you know
34:43anti-lemonade, seat at the table, like, you know.
34:46Blonde.
34:46Blonde.
34:47So the missing link here is Frank is what you're saying.
34:50Hey, maybe we, you know.
34:52Mr. Ocean.
34:52Maybe that's it.
34:53He'll reset the conversation for us.
34:55I think it's interesting to note too,
34:57even though these artists weren't able to perform well
35:02on the 200, they've been outside on tour.
35:05Yes.
35:06They have been doing stellar jobs.
35:07They're putting in the work.
35:08Yeah.
35:08That's no question.
35:09Shout out to all the R&B artists on tour.
35:12You know, Janae, no album out.
35:14An arena tour.
35:15Yeah.
35:15She's doing her second leg.
35:17Kehlani enjoying her first arena tour.
35:20And you still got the vets.
35:21Like, you know, I just took, Trevor went as well.
35:24You know, I took my mom to go see Maxwell.
35:25Yeah.
35:27With Jasmine in October.
35:28In October, London.
35:29Yeah.
35:30I think, I mean, I think that's a good point too,
35:31that they stick together.
35:33Yes.
35:34They know the importance of building each other,
35:36lifting each other up, opening those doors for each other.
35:39Like, so, cause you know, you could probably,
35:40I'm sure there are 10 other people that would be lining up
35:42for that kind of spot.
35:43Maybe you want to rap or maybe you want,
35:44but it's like, no, we want R&B strictly
35:48and to unite, you know, past, present and future
35:50in that kind of way.
35:51Like to help, you know, cross the bridge between generations.
35:54I think that's a really important thing
35:55that those artists are doing.
35:57Yeah.
35:57I mean, listen, I think next year,
36:00Janae's going to be outside.
36:01I'm talking musically.
36:02Yeah.
36:02Summer's going to be back outside.
36:04I hope Jasmine drops a project.
36:06Oh, I hope Jasmine drops a project.
36:08Yeah.
36:08Yeah.
36:09Beautiful project.
36:10And Frank, you know, we would love another Frank project.
36:14I mean, you know.
36:15If he feels like it, you know.
36:18I mean, I also give a little bit of credit
36:20to two artists who dropped albums that were,
36:24I think, good signifiers of where R&B could head
36:27on both sides of the sonic spectrum.
36:30There's more of the down-tempo side,
36:31more of the up-tempo side,
36:32but the Leon Thomas album.
36:35And then this is more of a dance album, really,
36:37but Kaytranada's timeless album.
36:39I think are really good examples of where R&B
36:42can go with different tempos
36:43and playing with different influence
36:45from different decades,
36:46but also pushing it forward in a cool way.
36:48Yeah.
36:48I think hopefully people really listen
36:51to those two projects and take some pointers
36:53and we can see the fruits of that in the years to come.
36:56But keep an eye on those two.
36:57Yeah.
36:57And Kaytranada, I hope Leon gets a look
36:59at this upcoming Grammy's as well.
37:01Yeah.
37:02Some great albums.
37:03Is it too late?
37:04No.
37:06No, he submitted.
37:07He submitted.
37:07Oh, he submitted.
37:07Okay.
37:08I saw him put some Grammy considerations.
37:09Oh, okay.
37:09Okay.
37:11Let's get into our lightning round.
37:13Let's talk about some of the picks
37:15that we're digging this week.
37:18Okay.
37:19All right.
37:19Well, I'm gonna go take it to our cousins across the pond
37:22and I'm gonna look at a song
37:24that's really blown up in the UK
37:26that I've had on repeat for the past couple of days.
37:28It's called Embrace It.
37:29Okay.
37:29By N-Dots.
37:30Is that that TikTok one?
37:32Yeah.
37:32I mean, it's very...
37:34I kind of appreciate like how sort,
37:36you know, shameless it is.
37:37And, you know, like TikTok is dropping the lyrics.
37:39It's a pretty short song.
37:40It only clocks about one minute, 45 seconds.
37:42Yo.
37:43But it's been number one on the UK
37:45R&B hip hop chart for a couple of weeks.
37:47Wow.
37:48It's just like, it's just a good up-tempo kind of vibe.
37:51Like it's really start to finish.
37:52It doesn't hit you over the head too fast,
37:54but it's one of those things that I just think
37:56the beat is really cool.
37:58It has a little like sort of Spanish guitar
38:00little that tracks throughout.
38:02So it gives it a nice little hook that you don't expect
38:05and kind of marrying, you know,
38:07a little Latin guitar with like a UK rap voice
38:09or something that you don't hear very often.
38:10So just to have that kind of mix in there is pretty cool.
38:13It's just a fun song.
38:14There's nothing really, you know,
38:16I'm gonna sit here and say it's like,
38:17it's a Pulitzer lyric or anything like that.
38:20The delivery is just fun.
38:21I think it's a beat.
38:21It's just a guy who, you know, this is his first viral hit.
38:24So really something he just created
38:26and is watching blow up.
38:27And, and number one in the UK, obviously is no small feat.
38:30Hasn't really made too much traction in the US,
38:32but I think it's sort of, you know,
38:34something that could definitely be on its way.
38:36Definitely coming through TikTok.
38:37So, you know, sometimes things translate, you know,
38:40over there first, make their way over here,
38:42but it's just fun.
38:43It's quick.
38:43It doesn't overstay its welcome.
38:44And I just think the energy and the tempo of it
38:47is something I always like fast songs.
38:48I always like songs, especially with hip hop
38:49that just gets you excited and fun.
38:51So it's a little party vibe, a little, you know,
38:54good, good time.
38:54And that little, that little Latin little flavor
38:58with that Spanish guitar
38:59has just been stuck in my head all day.
39:00So Carlos Santana right there.
39:01Ooh.
39:02Oh yeah.
39:03You know, sure.
39:04You know, you want to give it a little Maria Maria
39:06or something like that.
39:07Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
39:08But definitely UK, huge hit.
39:09Check it out.
39:10Okay.
39:10Brother Kyle.
39:11I mean, he was giving me some jokes earlier
39:13about this fig, but my fig is a space by Mario.
39:18Shout out to Mario.
39:19No really like over the moon reason
39:22besides the fact that I really love Mario's voice.
39:24He has one of my favorite voices in all of R&B
39:26and that's what makes this kind of Anderson pack
39:30light funk ish song work for me.
39:33It's not necessarily like the most groundbreaking song ever
39:36but he sounds great.
39:37And I like hearing Mario's voice.
39:38So space by Mario.
39:40Give it a spin.
39:40Yeah. Check that out.
39:41Also, I know I brought this up to Trevor.
39:43It hit me.
39:44Let me love you is 20 this year.
39:47Yeah. Coming up.
39:48Yeah.
39:49Big time.
39:51How could you?
39:52Yeah.
39:53Yeah.
39:53How could you?
39:54I still on the playlist to this day.
40:00Mario is going to be on tour with MJB and Neo next year.
40:04So make sure you like it.
40:04Y'all take it.
40:05There you go.
40:05Again.
40:05Another R&B stack top to bottom lineup.
40:08It's going to be fun.
40:10I'm going to actually go back to the pond.
40:13There's this kid named Nipa.
40:16Yeah.
40:16I just got hip to him this year.
40:19He's put out like just a trifecta of bangers to me.
40:21He gives me like a young Craig David vibe.
40:24I know some people describe his music as hood R&B
40:28but he put out this song called save your tears.
40:30I actually got a little guitar flow to it too.
40:35But I think his tonality is very like 2000 ish Chris Brown vibes.
40:42Okay.
40:43So like in that up to see, I'm telling you that like on that business trip, you know,
40:49he's versatile to play in both lanes, whether it's up tempo or down.
40:53And he actually worked with Craig David too on a record a couple of years back.
40:57So I could see the semblance there.
40:59So Nipa save your tears.
41:02It's supposed to be a heartbreak record, but it feels good at the same time.
41:06Those are the best ones.
41:07Right.
41:07When they mask the lyrics, you know, something that's different.
41:10So I would say check that out.
41:11He also has a record called sugar with Larry June, which is hard and take me.
41:15So shout out to Nipa.
41:16The UK is just, you want to talk about R&B.
41:19The UK got some, yo, I mean, Georgia, I mean, they've always been, you know,
41:30it's a nice collective over there for sure.
41:32Salt.
41:33We might have to go to the pond, you know, see what kind of water they got.
41:38Unfiltered, unfiltered in London.
41:40Hey, my boy Craig David.
41:45Okay.
41:45We got to cut this off.
41:49Pour some water on that.
41:50Anywho, appreciate y'all for kicking it with us this week on Billboard Unfiltered.
41:56We will see y'all real soon.