Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
The podcast features John Collins interviewing Alyssa Hammond, a former member of the International House of Prayer (IHOP). Alyssa recounts her childhood experiences growing up in IHOP and her struggles with the organization’s intense focus on eschatology and prophetic messages. Her father was deeply connected to the movement, leading the family to relocate to Kansas City when she was 13. As a teenager, Alyssa was drawn into the culture of IHOP, participating in activities such as dance and prophecy teams. However, despite her outward participation, Alyssa internally wrestled with fear, anxiety, and a sense of doom brought on by IHOP’s teachings about the end times. The conversation reveals the deep emotional toll the movement had on her, and she reflects on how her belief system was shaped by leaders like Mike Bickle and Bob Jones.
As the discussion progresses, Alyssa shares her adult life after leaving IHOP. She describes how the remnants of IHOP's teachings affected her mental and physical health. The constant pressure to perform spiritually and the community's emphasis on the end of the world left her feeling exhausted and unsure of her future. Alyssa also touches on her gradual shift away from IHOP's rigid belief system, allowing herself the freedom to question long-held teachings. She highlights the difficulty of processing her past, dealing with feelings of isolation, and balancing her current faith with her past indoctrination. The interview ends on a note of encouragement for others who have left or are considering leaving similar movements.
00:00 Introduction
01:08 Alyssa’s Childhood in IHOP
03:32 Daily Life in IHOP: Prophecy and Dance Teams
06:04 Coping with Fear and End-Time Theology
09:16 Cult Doctrines and Childhood Trauma
12:24 Leaving IHOP and Initial Reflections
15:01 Family Influences and Struggles with Belief
18:49 Bob Jones and the Mythology of IHOP Leaders
20:50 IHOP’s Influence on Personal Faith and Theology
25:03 Physical and Mental Health Challenges After IHOP
30:45 Changes in Family and Faith Practices Post-Cult
36:03 Learning the Gospel and Re-Evaluating Theology
40:56 Life After IHOP: Parenting and Personal Growth
45:00 Advice for Others Leaving Cult-like Movements
50:45 The Challenges of Finding New Faith Communities
55:08 Closing Remarks
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://t
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
The podcast features John Collins interviewing Alyssa Hammond, a former member of the International House of Prayer (IHOP). Alyssa recounts her childhood experiences growing up in IHOP and her struggles with the organization’s intense focus on eschatology and prophetic messages. Her father was deeply connected to the movement, leading the family to relocate to Kansas City when she was 13. As a teenager, Alyssa was drawn into the culture of IHOP, participating in activities such as dance and prophecy teams. However, despite her outward participation, Alyssa internally wrestled with fear, anxiety, and a sense of doom brought on by IHOP’s teachings about the end times. The conversation reveals the deep emotional toll the movement had on her, and she reflects on how her belief system was shaped by leaders like Mike Bickle and Bob Jones.
As the discussion progresses, Alyssa shares her adult life after leaving IHOP. She describes how the remnants of IHOP's teachings affected her mental and physical health. The constant pressure to perform spiritually and the community's emphasis on the end of the world left her feeling exhausted and unsure of her future. Alyssa also touches on her gradual shift away from IHOP's rigid belief system, allowing herself the freedom to question long-held teachings. She highlights the difficulty of processing her past, dealing with feelings of isolation, and balancing her current faith with her past indoctrination. The interview ends on a note of encouragement for others who have left or are considering leaving similar movements.
00:00 Introduction
01:08 Alyssa’s Childhood in IHOP
03:32 Daily Life in IHOP: Prophecy and Dance Teams
06:04 Coping with Fear and End-Time Theology
09:16 Cult Doctrines and Childhood Trauma
12:24 Leaving IHOP and Initial Reflections
15:01 Family Influences and Struggles with Belief
18:49 Bob Jones and the Mythology of IHOP Leaders
20:50 IHOP’s Influence on Personal Faith and Theology
25:03 Physical and Mental Health Challenges After IHOP
30:45 Changes in Family and Faith Practices Post-Cult
36:03 Learning the Gospel and Re-Evaluating Theology
40:56 Life After IHOP: Parenting and Personal Growth
45:00 Advice for Others Leaving Cult-like Movements
50:45 The Challenges of Finding New Faith Communities
55:08 Closing Remarks
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://t
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00You
00:30Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast.
00:37I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham historical research
00:42at William-Branham.org. And with me, I have my very special guest, Alyssa Hammond,
00:48former member of IHOP. Alyssa, it's so good to have you on today and to tell your story.
00:55We've been chatting for quite a while now before we started recording.
00:59And as I'm getting everything set up, we're talking Star Trek and all of the fun stuff.
01:04So now we're going to switch over to the IHOP stuff.
01:07But maybe if you could just pause a minute and tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
01:12So I was 13 years old. My parents moved to Kansas City.
01:18My dad often says one of the things that resonated with him was when Mike said,
01:22you know, if you feel like a square peg in a round hole, this is the place for you.
01:26And it wasn't just that. It was many other things.
01:29He really connected with the prophetic history.
01:31He felt he had he had some dreams and just other things that like lined up with it,
01:35even before he'd ever heard of Kansas City, just kind of like weird stuff that led him to believe that God was calling us.
01:41And so he moved us. I wasn't happy about it at the time because, you know, I was 13 and I was being uprooted.
01:49Yeah. Yeah. But I so I plugged into my new life pretty quickly, though.
01:53I I was the youngest member of the prophecy teams and the dance team.
01:58So I got recruited right away. Not there was. Yeah.
02:01That wasn't normal, though, for 13 year olds. But I happened to be doing that.
02:06So, yeah, my life was like I go to school during the week and then on the weekend I work.
02:13You know, we go to Friday night service where we learn about Song of Solomon.
02:17And then Saturday we get up, we go work the prophecy rooms for about four hours, me and my dad.
02:22And then we go to some random, you know, fast food place in Grandview.
02:26And then we run over to the EGS service where Mike talks about the end times and how we're all going to die a horrible death and all that.
02:33And then we wake up the next morning and I dance, you know, at Sunday morning, you know, church service.
02:39Yeah. And then I'm and then we go home and then we have a small group or more rappers come over to our house and we talk about the end times and whatnot.
02:45And so then, you know, by the end of the weekend, I'm totally exhausted and I got to wake up and go to school and started all over.
02:50And there was my doorbell.
02:54You know, it's funny because in in what you just said and what we've previously talked about, you're describing my former life, although I was not a dancer and you don't want to see me dance.
03:06I can be honest with you. But we lived in that mentality.
03:10The world was ending. We were we were joyfully doomed. I don't know how best to describe this.
03:17We were joyfully doomed and we enjoyed the fact that the world was ending.
03:21And it's really sad when you think about it, because of what that does to a child.
03:26And I just, you know, looking back, there are so many things I felt today I feel kind of robbed because I lost opportunities and living in this mindset.
03:38What was it like for you as a child in this?
03:41What what were you thinking when you were dancing about the end of the world?
03:45What what went through your head?
03:47It's funny you say that because we actually like would do these dance productions about like eschatological scripture passages, like at every one thing conference every year.
03:57So, yeah, I grew up and again, I was 13.
04:02So I was very young and maybe things just sink in deeper for me.
04:07But I feel like most of the people around me were not terrified like I was.
04:11They were like, oh, this is so cool and so epic and so glorious.
04:15And like and I was like, are you kidding me? This is like the worst thing ever.
04:19Like I'm praying to God that this doesn't actually happen in my lifetime, even though I am 100 percent convinced that it is because of all the yada, yada, yada.
04:27Right. Like all this extra biblical prophetic confirmation.
04:30Therefore, I know for sure that I'm going to die some horrific death, probably like in a concentration camp somewhere.
04:36So, you know, in school when I'm required to read Corrie ten Boom, that takes on a whole new meaning for me because I'm like looking at my future, you know.
04:42So, yeah, it's just it was very dark.
04:44I often thought like it would I really wish I could die.
04:48Like it would actually just be better to not live through this.
04:51Like I would just want I just want to skip this part, God, and go to heaven.
04:55And like so, yeah, I don't I guess you would call that suicidal.
04:59You know, at the time it was kind of like now that I ever like attempted to take my own life.
05:04Yeah, but my I didn't have any hope for the future or like joy for living.
05:08And I was a teenager, you know.
05:10Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
05:12And it's weird because in in the Branham cult, there was different splinter groups and you go to one part of the country and it was the same thing.
05:21It had the same foundation of doomsday, but they had different takes on how it would all happen out.
05:26And I can clearly remember as a child going to one part of the country and they were preaching on the concentration camps.
05:33The Russians were going to storm the shores.
05:35They're going to rape the women and they're going to steal the children.
05:38And one horrific scene that still I'll never get it out of my head.
05:44But I think it came from my own mother telling me that they will actually tie people between two elephants and rip their bodies apart.
05:51And whenever all of this comes down.
05:53And so you go to one part of the country and it's like, I don't know, scenes off of a B rated horror movie.
06:00Then you go to another part and they had, quote, unquote, grace.
06:04And they said things like, but the bride won't have to go through this.
06:09And the special elite of the believers, if you can just be that one in a million.
06:14And they would do this kind of stuff.
06:16So they had like tiers of doomsday.
06:19You had the rank and file members who weren't the good, who weren't the elite of the members.
06:24And they're going to be ripped apart by these elephants and whatnot.
06:28And, you know.
06:30The peasants.
06:31Yeah, the peasants.
06:32You're the peasants of our cult, right?
06:35And now you say that.
06:37That actually triggered me.
06:39And I'm thinking there were actually doctrines where there were entire sermons about the peasants of the cult.
06:44They were, I think they used maybe the foolish virgins.
06:49They used some kind of biblical passage.
06:51And they said these are the lesser ones.
06:54And they're the ones that will suffer.
06:55While we are not going to suffer.
06:57But to a kid, man, this is not what you want to hear.
07:00This is not a healthy thing to hear.
07:02No, it is not.
07:04Yeah.
07:06And I didn't.
07:07Again, it's like it's years, years later that I'm finally putting that together.
07:10As an adult, I started to have.
07:12So Mike Bickle would get random emails about how things are going so horribly in the world.
07:19And then he'd forward them to my mom, who would then forward them to me.
07:22And then they'd hit my inbox.
07:24And then I'd have an anxiety, panic attack sort of thing every time.
07:28Even though it's like, okay.
07:30Because my husband, so he is not an eyehopper.
07:33Thank God.
07:35He was like, that's crazy.
07:37He was like, that's just conspiracy theories.
07:39He's like, don't.
07:40And I'm like, but it feels so real.
07:42I think when it comes from your parents.
07:44I never, I didn't really individuate really ever.
07:49Probably recently maybe.
07:51It was like in my 30s.
07:53So my parents' voice was always like the word of God to me.
07:57So if they're endorsing something.
07:59And then Mike Bickle too.
08:01If they're endorsing something or saying something, it just resonates with me.
08:05And even if I don't want to believe it, it's like deep down I had this gut feeling that they're right.
08:10And I'm wrong.
08:12Even though my brain's kicking in.
08:14It's like I was taught to ignore my own intuition, my own instincts.
08:18My own what I'm hearing from the Lord.
08:20If what Mike is saying or what my parents are saying contradicts it.
08:25I would say those are probably the strongest voices.
08:27There were other teachers and other voices too.
08:29But I'd say those three are probably equally powerful in my life.
08:34Which is wild to say.
08:35But mainly Mike.
08:37Obviously the parent thing makes sense.
08:38But the fact that someone that wasn't my parent could have that.
08:41It's fun what your husband said.
08:44I had an interview with a man and a woman.
08:47The woman had escaped the Branham cult from here in the main sect.
08:52They fell in love and he married her.
08:55They're telling their story.
08:56He just doesn't understand any of this.
08:58He said I was with her one day and she wanted me to listen to a tape of this guy that sounded like Adolf Hitler.
09:05He said something to the effect that women aren't worth a good bullet to shoot them.
09:10I can't remember how he said it.
09:12But he's quoting directly from Branham.
09:15The look on his face when he said it.
09:19It was hard for me not to laugh because I'm trying to picture myself in his shoes.
09:24When you hear something like this it's just nuts.
09:27And you look back to the doctrine and what you said is exactly dead on.
09:32There's so much of it.
09:34There was nothing more than conspiracy theories.
09:36But they weren't even the cool ones.
09:40I've studied conspiracy theories and some of them are kind of fascinating.
09:43But these aren't.
09:44These are like.
09:45I don't know how to explain.
09:48The worst possible way to punish people in their minds is all this was.
09:53You said there were tears in your group where you could escape the tribulation.
09:58We didn't have that luxury at all.
10:00We were taught the rapture.
10:03That's wrong.
10:04That's not happening.
10:05Given all the reasons why.
10:07There was no hope.
10:09There was no escape.
10:12There was no mental.
10:14A lot of the kids that I know that were in more traditional environments.
10:17They would teach the rapture.
10:19And that was kind of their out.
10:21We're going to take revelation literally here.
10:23But we don't have to be here.
10:25But then I was taught by many teachers.
10:27All the reasons why that's not actually biblically accurate.
10:31Nor was it the historical view.
10:33It's a recent view.
10:35All the things.
10:36I was of course very convinced.
10:37And I'm still convinced frankly.
10:40I don't know.
10:41Obviously I'm at the point where I'm just willing to lay all my theology on the table.
10:44But that rapture thing, that definitely has a lot of holes in it.
10:49There's so much.
10:50I went through several iterations after leaving.
10:53In fact, it's kind of good.
10:56I had an original YouTube site that the cult attacked and brought down.
11:01So I had all kinds of videos.
11:02Some of them had 100,000 views or more.
11:05And the cult attacked it and brought it down.
11:07They're trying to suppress the information.
11:09So I'm rebuilding, starting a new one.
11:11But I look back at the way that my mind was back during those years that I had it.
11:18And I was a crazy nut.
11:20I'll just say it, man.
11:22I had just escaped this thing.
11:24And there was so much packed into my head that I was trying to evaluate.
11:29And the problem is it's like a ball of yarn.
11:34You pull the string and then it just kind of unravels.
11:37Well, that was happening to me verbally as I was pulling strings out of my head
11:42of things that I believed.
11:44And the more I pulled, the more nuts it got.
11:47You know what I mean?
11:48It's like there are nuts stacked on top of nuts and further nonsense.
11:52And when you pull it all out and you realize that none of the conspiracy theories
12:00were even close to something that a normal person would even believe,
12:05then you're stuck in this world of, well, what do I do?
12:08Now I'm no longer in this.
12:10And if I tell somebody who was never in it what's in my head,
12:13they're going to flip out.
12:15Right.
12:16Yeah.
12:18Yes.
12:19Yeah.
12:20And so my husband is – I think when I got married, I was actually at the time,
12:24I was like – because I felt that he was the guy that the Lord had for me.
12:29Because at that time it was very much like you don't have a choice.
12:31God picks your person.
12:33I don't believe that anymore.
12:36And he still was a good choice.
12:38I'm not saying he wasn't.
12:39But my views were different then.
12:42And so at the time it was like, God, I don't understand why you would pick
12:44somebody for me that didn't grow up in the same community as me because
12:48there's just parts of me he's never going to understand.
12:51And obviously I see now why the Lord did that because he needed someone to
12:55bounce me out and help point out the flaws and the weaknesses.
12:59But it is true that there are parts of me that he's never going to get.
13:02You know, like only other cult members like understand, you know,
13:06like the specific, you know, like nature of everything, right?
13:10So, yeah, that is definitely – I think there's an inherent loneliness when
13:14you come out of something like this because you're leaving behind everyone
13:17who gets you and then you're jumping into a world of people who just
13:21inherently don't get you.
13:23Like, you know, because it sounds wacko if you say it out loud.
13:28It is.
13:30And, you know, and I'm still – like I still keep going back to the
13:33conspiracy theory because I can't believe that I believe some of this stuff.
13:37I really can't.
13:38But what's odd is for me – and I don't know if it may be the same for you.
13:42After you leave, you no longer believe any of the conspiracy theory nonsense.
13:47But when you have people that some major event happens in the world that is
13:53tied to one of those conspiracy theories, they want to do the,
13:57aha, see, we're right, and they send you the conspiracy theory.
14:00Now, me, I've already moved on.
14:02I realize that it's nonsense.
14:04And so it looks further like nonsense when they send it to me.
14:08But then to them, they think they're sending me some great revelation
14:12that proves that all of this nonsense was correct.
14:15Has that happened to you since you've left?
14:17Oh, yeah.
14:19Yeah, like especially – I don't like throwing people under the bus.
14:23It's hard because, like, there's many people that are, like, relatives
14:26and very close to me, and we're all at different stages in this process, right?
14:32Like since October, like a lot of people are starting to, like,
14:35kind of wake up to things.
14:37I was a little farther along in my journey by then,
14:39but I still didn't understand the ramifications of, like, the fullness of it.
14:43It was more just like I sensed something is off but didn't really understand
14:47though it's like, oh, something is deeply off here, you know.
14:50And it's really odd, too, whenever you feel something that feels off
14:53because all of that mental programming comes back in your head, right?
14:57Yeah, I have to fight a lot of things.
15:00Yeah, like, well, so to give an example,
15:03so, like, around maybe, I don't know, 2020, so around there,
15:09I started to realize that, like, something was off about the eschatology
15:13mainly because the fruit of it in my own life was panic attacks, right?
15:17Fear, anxiety, you know, no joy, no peace, no hope, right?
15:21Like, all these things.
15:22You know, and I feel like the Lord was leading me to Matthew 24
15:24where it's like, you know, at IHOP you're taught that the main point
15:27of this passage is that we're supposed to know the times and the seasons, right?
15:31So which means, and by that they mean watch the news
15:33and freak out about current events.
15:35Like, I feel like it's what they were, that's the application.
15:38And I was like, okay, Jesus is like, okay, but what is this really about?
15:42And he's like, what is the thing I'm mainly saying here?
15:44It's watch and pray, right?
15:46Like, watch and pray.
15:47And it doesn't mean watch the news.
15:48It means watch him.
15:49And so it started to make, like, it led me on a journey of realizing,
15:53like, that something was off.
15:56There was this preoccupation, this, like, hyper focus on all these things
16:01that was just making everybody, or at least me, terrified.
16:04I think a lot of people didn't take it that seriously or didn't understand, maybe.
16:07Because, like, when I would say this to my parents later on,
16:10they would be like, well, we never taught you this.
16:12We never said that.
16:13We never taught you about the, you know, that you were going to die some perfect death.
16:16And I'm like, I mean, maybe you didn't actually say it,
16:19but you put me in a community where this is the ramification of, like, what they're saying.
16:26When they're teaching this thing, like, this is how I'm applying it to my life.
16:30And I did have people tell me, yes, we'll be in concentration camps.
16:33So, like, not them, but, like, maybe others or whatever.
16:35So I've got to have your take on this.
16:38I'm on the outside looking in, and I'm still trying to untangle, or as Brantley calls it, detangle,
16:44all of this mess that is IHOP.
16:46And I understand Paul Kane.
16:48I understand his connection to Branham.
16:50And I can see how Branhamism evolved into this.
16:53The trails are just very obvious.
16:56But the thing that is the total, it's like a black box to me,
17:00is trying to understand Bob Jones.
17:03How did you see him as a child when you saw some of the things that he said and did?
17:09What was it like seeing all of this stuff about Bob Jones?
17:14Yeah, so that's a good question, actually.
17:16Bob wasn't really around by the time I was there.
17:20So I guess, like, so I was there, like, pretty much at the beginning of the prayer room, like, IHOP.
17:25You know, like, we were in trailers.
17:26We were getting the thing going.
17:27My family is one of the first families to come for that.
17:30I think Bob and Paul Kane, the Kansas City prophets, was kind of leading up to that.
17:35And then by the time the prayer room was around, they weren't really around.
17:38Or if they were, they may have visited once or twice, you know, kind of thing.
17:41But they weren't, like, super integrally involved.
17:43However, we heard their names all the time because we had to study the prophetic history.
17:48Well, I say had to.
17:49You know, for students, some students were required to.
17:52And so maybe when I was at the time that I was a student, it was required.
17:55But as a child, I just listened to it because, like, it was, you know, cool.
17:59Right?
18:00Like, to me, and fascinating.
18:01Right?
18:02So we studied it.
18:03And my dad was obsessed with it.
18:04And, you know, everything.
18:05So he, Bob Jones was more of a mythological character.
18:08And so was Paul Kane.
18:10And I do have vague memories of at some point in my teenage years, them talking about, like,
18:15how Paul Kane and Bob Jones at different times had stumbled morally.
18:19But it was very glossed over and minimized.
18:23Also, I had randomly heard about Ernie Gruen and how, like, he is, you know, it's in the
18:28prophetic history, actually, that he had, like, attacked Mike and that ultimately repented
18:32and, like, you know, Meg forgave him and all these things about, like, how humble Mike
18:37was during that whole thing.
18:38And then the guy died and, like, all this stuff.
18:40Right?
18:41So there was this, like, story that was spun.
18:42And that's just what I believed.
18:44And so it wasn't until, like, October that I actually started, like, you know, looking
18:48into things and, like, you know, I found your podcast.
18:51Right?
18:52Like, there's, you know, like, other resources that were, like, oh, hey, maybe the story
18:55that was spun and told to you wasn't the real story.
19:00So I guess for me, yeah, Bob Jones was just, like, this awesome dude that, like, had this
19:04uncanny ability to hear from the Lord, same as Paul Kane.
19:07You know, it was kind of quirky or whatever.
19:09But, like, yeah, you know, and guys like that and Mike because Mike told these stories about
19:14how he'd go to heaven and stuff, you know, like, in a chariot or whatever and, like,
19:17see God directly.
19:18And so I wanted to be close to these people because I wanted to be close to God.
19:23And I'm, like, well, if they're that close to God, then if I get closer, you know.
19:26So, yeah, I guess that's who they were in my mind.
19:29We're kind of, like, there was the mythology there.
19:32They weren't real people.
19:33So, yeah, I wasn't old enough to have been around when they were actually super involved.
19:38That makes sense.
19:39And the fact that it's glossed over makes great sense.
19:43One or the other, and I'll open up to you and the world about this, one of the issues
19:47that I'm struggling with right now is that the information is so critical, but it's also
19:52so bad that I can't actually say it on YouTube or YouTube will censor me.
19:57If I say the things that Bob Jones did, I get censored and the video gets knocked down.
20:04And that's, you know, I'm looking through Ernie Gruen's report.
20:08I'm looking at some other things.
20:10And Mike Bickle ties the origins of this movement all the way back to the years in which Bob
20:15Jones was there.
20:16So, this was significant, but yet it's so bad I can't even put it on YouTube.
20:21Right.
20:22Yeah.
20:23Yeah, exactly.
20:24Like, you have to use terms like CSA and all those things, right?
20:27Yeah.
20:28Yeah.
20:29I'm trying to find a non-offensive way to talk about a man who is asking women into
20:35his private quarters to do things that I can't say or YouTube will censor me.
20:40It's just, it's so nuts.
20:43And, you know, I take a step back because all of this very eerily similarly resembles
20:50what I came from, although in the Branham cult it was men with men instead of men with
20:55women.
20:56But I look at this and it's the same thing.
20:59It's just different.
21:01But neither one of them can be possibly a move by God because this isn't the way that
21:06God operates.
21:07God doesn't send predators to his people and say, here, listen to my predator, my
21:12beloved predator who I'm sending you.
21:15International House of Predators, you know.
21:18I actually had not heard that one yet, so.
21:21I think that's actually, I just came up with that in my own mind one time.
21:24Awesome.
21:25I'm using it.
21:26Going forward, I'm using it.
21:29Another one I think me and my brother were joking about was pickling, referred to the
21:33Bickle Pickle.
21:34Oh, yeah.
21:36Pickling people, that's the one.
21:39So whenever I made the little cartoon and I chose pickle, that actually had more meaning
21:43than I even knew, I guess.
21:45Yeah.
21:47Yeah, most people say Bickle debacle.
21:49I'm like, oh, I don't know.
21:50I think pickle might be a better word.
21:52But anyways, I don't want to be like throwing people under the bus.
21:56It's hard because I feel like I'm walking the line of like there are so many people
21:59that are like at the point where they can like, you know, lightheartedly joke about
22:03things, right?
22:04And there's people that are like definitely not there.
22:06And I don't like want to hurt people's feelings or offend people or seem coward.
22:11But sometimes it's just you've been through so much, you just like start joking about
22:14it, you know, even though it is serious.
22:17And it's a healthy way.
22:19I used to read the Reader's Digest magazines and laughter is the best medicine, you know.
22:24It's a healthy way for your mind to comprehend something that has happened to you that's
22:30very bad, but not drive you deep into depression.
22:34So there are things that I try to find the funny and everything in my history.
22:38And I'll open up about this, too.
22:41I think I did this before, but usually when it's something that's really bad involving
22:45a character that I would have normally just feared in the cult, I try to put instead of
22:51his face in my mind, I put Daffy Duck or Bugs Bunny.
22:54And I think of it, I frame it like that.
22:57So in my mind, it's different.
22:59But then the problem is as I'm talking to people through the podcast, I've got Bugs
23:03Bunny and Daffy Duck in my brain.
23:05So I have to be careful how it comes out.
23:08But to people who are escaping or in the process of deciding whether or not to escape, what
23:15I learned is there are varying levels of being able to laugh about it.
23:19Some of the people who are hurting the most and they're getting ready to leave, when
23:24they see other people laughing about it, they think it's mockery.
23:27They really don't understand.
23:28But then people who are trying to reconcile what just happened to them after they escape,
23:35they kind of see the humor in it, but they're hurting so badly they can't laugh.
23:40And it's not until you go through those two stages that, yeah, this was some kind of funny
23:44stuff I was in.
23:45What in the world was I thinking, you know?
23:47So we initially, for the Branham cults, we set up different, I guess you'd call them
23:53silos of support groups.
23:55So if you first come out, this is the shell-shocked group.
23:58And then here's the angry-at-the-world group.
24:01And then here's the, yay, let's party group.
24:04It's like the stages of grief.
24:06I feel like I've seen that even in myself.
24:08There's disbelief, and then there's anger and bargaining.
24:11I've been in that, you know, like, oh, if only I had not gone to IHOPU, right?
24:16If only I had not, yeah.
24:18And I do want to disclaim and say it's not like it was all bad.
24:22Like, I, you know, grew up with a very strong personal relationship with the Lord.
24:26And a lot of that is due to some of the good, you know, and actually scripturally-based
24:31teachings that I was exposed to.
24:33And being in an environment that prayer was encouraged, right?
24:36So, you know, there were things that were mine, that were me and the Lord, that weren't
24:40being outside influenced by, like, weird stuff that, you know, I still have, and I still
24:45take with me.
24:46So it was not all bad.
24:48And, you know, like, a lot of people went and had, like, you know, similar, like, a
24:51lot of good experience.
24:53I think it's just when people start getting into the prophetic history and applying, you
24:58know, eschatology to current events, you know, and all that stuff, that it starts.
25:02And when at any time it's just getting off of Scripture and into this, like, weird little
25:08side cult area, that's where it, you know, starts to hurt people.
25:13I get it.
25:14I get it.
25:15And a lot of people think that because of the way that I do what I do, it's mostly the
25:19critical stuff.
25:20They think I didn't have a – I didn't view my life as a happy life, as a happy little
25:25cult member waiting for the world to end.
25:28There were good times.
25:29And, I mean, we had some real fun.
25:31But one of the things about a cult is you have this level of closeness that you're
25:36not going to find anywhere else in the world.
25:39After you leave, you'll never find it again because it's actually an unhealthy level
25:44of closeness.
25:45And so when you leave, you miss that.
25:47But while you're in it and you don't realize how destructive it is to be that much in other
25:52people's business, it feels good and you feel like you're – I don't know, it's
25:57almost like being married to every single person in the cult.
26:00You're right in each other's business.
26:02And it's not that way until you – you know, for normal people, until they get married,
26:07they're not – they don't find anybody that they connect that closely with.
26:11So we had happy times.
26:12We had good times.
26:14But at the same time, it was unhealthy and destructive.
26:19And our minds were – you know, our minds were being abused.
26:23It was spiritual abuse.
26:24In many cases, it was emotional abuse.
26:27And some people suffer whenever they leave the cult with the – I'm drawing a blank
26:34on the syndrome.
26:35But whenever an abuse victim wants to go back to the abuser, a lot of people who escape
26:39a cult, they go through that.
26:41And somebody in the comment feed can say what that – what that exact symptom is.
26:45Oh, yeah.
26:46It's like – it's eluding me as well, but I totally – a Stockholm syndrome.
26:49Stockholm syndrome, yeah.
26:50Yeah.
26:51Yeah.
26:52I was at – I don't know if you've ever seen The Office.
26:54I assume you probably have.
26:55But there's that quote from – oh, what's his face?
26:58Where he's like, oh, I've been in many cults, both as leader and follower.
27:02You have more followers as a follower.
27:04I laughed so hard when I heard that.
27:06You make more money as a leader.
27:08But you have more fun as a follower.
27:12Yeah.
27:13It's unbelievable.
27:15So you went through life.
27:17You started as a young dancer.
27:19You were looking for the world to end.
27:22Once you got into your adult years, how did it affect your way of thinking?
27:29What – the frame of reference that they indoctrinated you with as a kid, how did that
27:34impact your normal day-to-day life as an adult?
27:37Yeah.
27:38Well, I mean, I chose to go to ministry school.
27:40It wasn't even IHOPU at the time.
27:42It was FSM and then FMA, and I had a YWAM year in between.
27:47All the acronyms.
27:49So I gave up a normal college experience, which at the time seemed better and holy.
27:58And there were good things about it.
28:00I had a lot of classes from good teachers like Alan Hood, who actually taught really
28:05great stuff, and actually heard sermons about the cross.
28:10I'm like, what?
28:12That was a rarity, believe it or not.
28:15So yeah, there were definitely good things about it, but I didn't pursue a normal path.
28:23I ultimately ended up being able to turn my years in ministry and kind of merge them into
28:29an education degree.
28:32But I was able to kind of get to where I needed to go, because there were still some schools
28:36that would take IHOP credits at the time.
28:39I'm sure they won't anymore.
28:41But yeah, so I was able to get a Christian education degree, and I taught in a private
28:45school that was right across the street from IHOP.
28:48And I was extremely involved in theater.
28:50I directed theater for like 10 years.
28:53So it's not like things went bad.
28:55I enjoyed what I did.
28:57Education, though, was very exhausting.
29:00I guess maybe just one of the practical, physical things is I'd already burned myself out from
29:05the age of 13 up.
29:07And then at IHOPU, it was even more intense of a schedule, because I was also still doing
29:12props rooms and dance team on top of the 24 hours in the prayer room, and all these classes,
29:18and all these services, and all these things.
29:20It was a lot.
29:22And then my body started to fall apart.
29:24So I guess some of the other ramifications was my physical health was really impacted.
29:29And I think that's ultimately what kind of pushed me out.
29:32I didn't stay, because my body, I just feel like, couldn't really even handle it.
29:37And then even as a teacher, so I came into that already worn out, and then I'm teaching.
29:41And that's exhausting.
29:43And so I just got to the point where I got married, and then after a couple of years,
29:47I had to leave teaching and go do administrative jobs for different ministries and stuff, because
29:52my body just was burned out.
29:54And I just had so many digestive issues.
29:57My hands would just shake, and people would think I was on drugs.
29:59And I'm like, I'm not on drugs.
30:01I'm just nauseous, and my stomach just can't handle any kind of food.
30:06It was bad.
30:08So yeah, I would say my physical health was very impacted by just kind of the, I don't know.
30:14I don't know what you even call that.
30:15It's just this pressure to, you never rest.
30:18There's no observing the Sabbath.
30:20That's something I've had to learn in my adult life.
30:23And it's hard to do as a mom.
30:24But I try to have at least one day a week where the kids are with the grandparents, and I'm actually resting.
30:30Because the Sabbath, I guess, Sundays, it's like, oh, well, those are work days, or they used to be.
30:37And so I'm like, I'm working.
30:38My whole weekend was working in ministry.
30:40And so I guess seeing ministry as this work thing that just drains you.
30:44So I'm trying to reorient myself now to see, on just a practical level, that spirituality is not separate
30:52from physical and emotional well-being.
30:54This is all one thing.
30:56So resting is a spiritual thing to do.
30:59I don't have to feel guilty that I'm resting instead of running around serving and doing whatever,
31:04that I think is spiritually productive or whatever.
31:07Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started?
31:11Or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
31:16charismatic and other fringe movements, into the New Apostolic Reformation?
31:21You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
31:25william-branham.org.
31:28On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
31:33Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
31:37with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:42You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
31:49If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.
31:55And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
32:02On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
32:07I've read a few books by cult experts about the effects on the body from being in a cult.
32:14They call it high control groups or high demand groups.
32:18And they push the people to exhaustion because while they're in a state of exhaustion,
32:24they're very easy to manipulate the minds because their mind is tired.
32:29And so one of the key differences between IHOP and what was in the Branham movement that it came from,
32:36we weren't as demanding as what I see with IHOP.
32:41It's like hyper demand. It's crazy, physically exhausting.
32:45But we were mentally exhausted because we listen to these long recordings and constantly focus on doomsday much like you did.
32:53And one of the things that I've noticed in countless people, I've worked with several people out of the cults,
33:00while they're in the group, they look unhealthy.
33:04Some of the women, especially because the women are the most abused in the Branham religions,
33:10they look sickly and weak.
33:12And sometimes we've got groups all over Facebook and Twitter, etc.
33:17Sometimes whenever a person joins the group, just to make sure they're not a cult plant,
33:22I go through some of their profile and look at what they're saying in the pictures, etc.
33:28And it's weird because if you go back far enough, you see a person who looks sick and weak and tired and worn out.
33:34But then after they escape, it's like they've got new life.
33:38It's like a new birth almost.
33:40And you can attribute some of that to just being excited about leaving a cult.
33:46But I've been in the support groups long enough that I have seen people go through that initial excitement
33:52and then enter into, unfortunately, after the excitement, there's a reality that hits you.
33:58And it's a burden because now you feel sorry for all those people in it.
34:02And it kind of brings balance to your sudden party, your sudden excitement of being leaving, of having left.
34:11And so I look at the pictures from that point in time, and they still look healthier.
34:17So I know it's not the excitement.
34:19What would you say about your health after leaving? Has it changed?
34:23Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'm much healthier now than I was.
34:28There's just a lot of practical steps I had to take.
34:30For one, not being in the environments that were emotionally abusive, frankly, because that also was a contributing factor.
34:38It wasn't just the demand. It was also the emotional stress.
34:46I started juicing every day. That helped.
34:48I literally drink just enormous amounts of vegetables in liquid form, basically.
34:56So I'm one of those.
34:58My body did eventually recover.
35:00I was able to have two children.
35:02When I was seriously worried at one point, I just was not able to handle it.
35:06And motherhood is extremely exhausting and physically demanding, but I've gotten through it.
35:12I mean, I'm still in it, but I got through the pregnancies and all that.
35:18And then we moved to Florida, so I get a lot more sunshine now.
35:21So that's nice.
35:22Oh, wow. I would love to live there.
35:24My wife won't move there because of the bugs.
35:26She says the bugs are just too big.
35:28And the alligators.
35:30She cannot take the alligators.
35:32Well, we have a lot of screens.
35:34We've got screened-in porches and all that to handle the bugs.
35:37The alligators are kind of like tornadoes.
35:41When you live in the Midwest, it's like, whatever, tornadoes.
35:43Here, it's like, whatever, alligators.
35:45Obviously, I don't let my kids run around outside unsupervised, but I'm not in my house huddling in fear of alligators.
35:54One of the other things that I've noticed, when a person leaves a cult and they have children,
36:00their perspective is so much different than their parents.
36:04Well, the parents are in a cult, so it's obviously going to be different.
36:07But where other parents are thinking for the well-being of the child and the normal motherhood, fatherhood stuff,
36:15a person who has escaped a cult has baggage beyond that.
36:19They're thinking about all of the things that their child can do that they never could
36:24and the life that they can have that they, in many ways, they were hindered from having.
36:29How has it affected you as a mother with your children?
36:33Yeah, I would say—so, yeah, my husband obviously was not from my world.
36:39He was from a totally different world.
36:41So I think ironing out the what I'm okay with has even evolved since getting married and having kids.
36:49Initially, it was like, we will never celebrate Halloween.
36:52And now it's like, here we are.
36:55They're in their little costumes, trick-or-treating.
36:57And there's part of me that's like, oh, the devil's holiday.
37:00And part of me is like, whatever.
37:02I don't know.
37:03I guess there has been this gradual evolving because, again, it wasn't even until October that I even—it fully sank in.
37:10It was like, oh, wow, all of these feelings I've been having about that things are being off,
37:14those are super valid and way more valid than I knew.
37:17So I think for a long time I still just have felt guilty and felt like ultimately I'm wrong and they're really right deep down.
37:24And so now I think for the first time it's like, oh, maybe they're not actually right deep down at all.
37:32So it's probably affected my perspective on entertainment.
37:40There's just so many things about the world I grew up in.
37:43And this isn't even necessarily specific to IHOP.
37:45It's also just kind of a charismatic, conservative thing.
37:48Just paranoid.
37:49My parents, they've loosened up over the years.
37:52I'd like to say I wasn't allowed to watch Barney.
37:54I'm the oldest child because of the magic.
37:56Never not to mention the fact that Barney ended up being a pedophile.
37:59We don't care about that.
38:00We just care about the magic.
38:03But like my little brother Simeon was sitting there watching like Braveheart and Gladiator like sucking his thumb, you know.
38:09But that also wasn't even that far off really because there was like violence is fine.
38:14They got to get used to this because this is what their future is going to be.
38:17But there can be no sex.
38:18Right.
38:19I'm sorry.
38:20I probably can't say that word without you getting flagged.
38:21No, it's okay.
38:22Leap it out.
38:23Yeah.
38:25There was like you can watch Rated R as long as it's violence.
38:28But if it's anything else, you can't watch it.
38:29I don't know.
38:30So there was all these like weird rules about like movies and entertainment.
38:33So kind of like as an adult, like easing myself into like making my own choices and like using my own discernment and like loosening up on a lot of those things being like, oh, I used to think that like this was God saying that you can or can't do this.
38:47And like, no, it actually wasn't.
38:48You know, it was people saying that, you know.
38:51Yeah.
38:52With regards to the S word, which I'll probably leave it.
38:56I'll probably be okay.
38:57But I'll never forget when we left the cult.
38:59I was working with a guy who had he had been in the Branham called back, you know, years before me.
39:05But he was from another country.
39:08And in that country, it wasn't the same as in America.
39:13So whenever he was, you know, an adolescent, he went to the beach.
39:16There were nude beaches.
39:18And the skin wasn't the same.
39:21The way that people viewed the skin wasn't the same in his country.
39:24And he came to America.
39:25And it's like, what is this?
39:28People here are freaks, man.
39:29It's not normal.
39:31God gave you that skin, you know.
39:33And it was the first time that I ever came to realize that even that was unhealthy.
39:39And so I'm one of these people that I just study things to no end.
39:43So I start going through everything that I could find about the ancient world and the ancient clothing
39:48and what the ancient Christians would have wore.
39:50And you look at some of the togas that the women would have wore and, you know, Greek and Roman Christians.
39:56And, man, my children would not be allowed to be with a woman who was dressed like that, you know.
40:02And so and you talk about the festivals, the Halloween.
40:07I think it was that same person.
40:10He said, John, I don't understand why you can't move on beyond this false religion.
40:16And he came from the same religion.
40:17He was further along than me.
40:20But he said, look at Colossians 2.
40:22Let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink.
40:26And with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath, do you understand, John, what Halloween is?
40:32It's the festival for the new moon.
40:34And every country has its own version of this.
40:37And he was explaining this to me.
40:38And I'm scratching my head thinking, yeah, but there's demons.
40:42There's witches.
40:43And, you know, I was like, you know, this can't be.
40:47We forced ourselves early on.
40:50I want to say it was within two years of leaving the cult.
40:53Another ex-cult member invited us to a Halloween party.
40:58And it was one of the most fun things I've ever done in my life.
41:03Yeah.
41:04Yeah.
41:05Holidays.
41:06Because I even remember, like, I love Christmas.
41:08It's a big deal to me.
41:10But as, like, my parents kind of got to this point, I don't know if they started getting influenced by some of the people that were like, you know, Christmas is actually a pagan holiday, like Constantine, blah, blah, blah.
41:19We shouldn't celebrate it.
41:20They started to lose their Christmas enthusiasm.
41:22And it got to the point where it's like I'm by myself putting up a Christmas tree because, like, I'm the only one that will do it, you know.
41:29So definitely, obviously, as, you know, having my own household of, like, we do Christmas around here.
41:35But, yeah, there was just a lot of, like, joy that was, like, stolen by, like, these kind of these, like, legalistic ideas.
41:42Like, oh, well, all, you know, like, these religions are rooted in paganism.
41:45Therefore, sorry, not religions.
41:47Holidays are rooted in paganism.
41:49Therefore, we can't celebrate them.
41:50And it's like, OK, well, yeah, like, sure, maybe there's pagan roots to this stuff.
41:54But it doesn't mean that you can't – it's like being in the world but not of it, right?
41:59It's like we don't want to just totally separate ourselves from the culture.
42:01We can still, like, be salt and light in the culture.
42:04We don't have to participate in the things that we feel are not good.
42:07But we don't have to just completely reject joy and, you know, happiness.
42:12Well, and it's even – for me, it's even deeper than that.
42:15Like I say, I study things to no end.
42:17I can't tell you how many books I read about this.
42:19But it isn't that we're taking that from the pagan cultures.
42:23It's that the pagan cultures took that from just simple logistics on how to grow food.
42:30You have to study the moon cycles in order to – and the harvest.
42:33All of it works together because we live in this world where there is a winter.
42:38There is a summer.
42:39There is a time to plant.
42:40There is a time to sow.
42:42There is a time to reap, so on and so forth.
42:45And so eventually over time, that's how they celebrated this.
42:51And the celebrations turned into the pagan deities, et cetera.
42:54But from its inception, it was just literally celebrating the harvest, the moons,
43:00the things that people required in order to live.
43:03You had to know those things to live.
43:05We have watches and calendars, and it's all foreign to us.
43:09We wouldn't think about having to go outside and look at the moon to know should we plant our corn right now or not.
43:15But what happened was the pagan cultures built all of their holidays and their rituals around this,
43:22and then the moons became worshipped as deities, et cetera.
43:26It entered into pantheons of deities.
43:29And then fast forward into Halloween.
43:33Well, we're doing the same thing that originally was just a celebration of a harvest,
43:38but because of all of this weird history that went with it,
43:41you have the witches and the demons and the Draculas and whatnot.
43:46I like fiction, so I enjoy it, and I don't think people could take it away from me now.
43:53Well, that shows how far you've come, huh?
43:57Exactly.
43:58So let's talk about life after cult.
44:01That's something that everyone who listens to our stories on the podcast,
44:05really that's what they're looking for.
44:07They're looking for how do we survive after leaving this thing.
44:11And a lot of people, everybody goes their own separate ways.
44:14Some people remain Christian.
44:15Some people don't.
44:16What was it like for you whenever you came to try to decide religiously where you were going after the cult?
44:24I'm assuming you remained Christian.
44:26What did you choose and where did you go?
44:29Yeah, I think that's like an ever-evolving thing.
44:32I've always had that personal relationship with the Lord through everything,
44:35and so I've never lost that.
44:37But at the same time, the reason why we're even doing this is because I reached out to you for recommendations on apologetics books.
44:43So obviously I feel like there's this split thing going on in my brain.
44:47There's the me that knows deep down that I love Jesus and that he's real,
44:51and then there's the me that's like, but wait a minute.
44:54There's a lot of things that I used to 100% believe were true that are like lies,
44:58and so now I have to evaluate everything.
45:01So I've got to double check.
45:04So yeah, I don't know.
45:06I guess there is more of an open-mindedness to be wrong, which is good,
45:11because obviously there was much spiritual pride before of like, we have it all figured out,
45:15and all these little peasants don't know what they're doing, and we're the enlightened ones, right?
45:21So let that go.
45:23So yeah, I guess I'm more open to just kind of like, as far as just like all theological things, right?
45:29Like what should fall to the ground and what should stay?
45:33It's kind of still there.
45:35And a lot of it, it's like I kind of—I mean, there's not a lot that's changed, and then there are a lot.
45:41As far as like scriptural things, I feel like a lot of those things for me haven't changed
45:45because they were scripturally rooted, but anything that was just like not scripturally rooted,
45:48I'm just like, whatever.
45:50That's it.
45:51Away with the extra.
45:52I'm tired of it.
45:53Yes.
45:54At that point, it's like, nope.
45:56Got to be gone.
45:57But I mean, that's not a bad thing.
45:59But you know, there is that like, there is those fears that arise of, you know, God, are you real?
46:05You know, is Jesus who he said he was?
46:07I just got to double check here, you know?
46:10I got to—and then I've wrestled a lot too emotionally with like, how do I know that I'm saved?
46:17Because I feel like IHOP was a very like works-based environment.
46:20Not that they ever would have outright said that, but just what you kind of picked up by being there
46:25was like, I got to earn my salvation.
46:27It's kind of the—it's like the vibe.
46:29It's kind of like I got to try really hard to like be so holy and spiritual.
46:32So the idea that there is nothing that I can do to help God save me is just like still blowing my mind.
46:38Like I—like there was a time that I was literally weeping on the floor in my room for like hours,
46:42like literally just reading the Gospels, and it was like hitting me for like the first time.
46:46Like after we had moved to Florida, and I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like I've never heard the Gospel.
46:51Wow.
46:52I remember that exact feeling.
46:54Yeah.
46:55And then like, oh, The Chosen.
46:56I love The Chosen, right?
46:58And I'm like, why do I love The Chosen so much?
47:00I'm like the biggest fan like ever.
47:02And I'm like, maybe it's because I really haven't had the Gospel actually like portrayed to me all that often.
47:07You know, we spent a lot of time talking about Revelation and Song of Solomon,
47:11but we really didn't—there wasn't a lot of like just basic Christology.
47:15So yeah, I feel like in some ways I'm like a child just like trying to like learn that.
47:19But I feel like I'm constantly battling in my mind this idea that like I got to do something.
47:24Like I wasn't baptized exactly the right way, so I got to figure that out.
47:27I got to, you know, like if I have even the smallest level of sin somewhere that I can't kick,
47:33like that's not acceptable.
47:34I'm going to hell.
47:35Like I'm fighting all these things a lot.
47:37So I feel like that's still a wrestle.
47:39Even though it's like I'll rationalize with myself like all the reasons why that's wrong,
47:43I still am not—my heart's not settled.
47:45So there's that.
47:48And then there's the part of me that's like I still pray and I still read my Bible.
47:53And you know what I mean?
47:55I live my life like I pray a prayer and God answers it like regularly, you know.
47:59So it's like he's there and I know that he hears me and he answers me.
48:03And like I know.
48:04And then there's the part of me that's like, am I even saved?
48:07Are you even real?
48:08So yeah.
48:09So anyways.
48:10And so church, the church question, church kind of triggers me a little bit some most the time.
48:14So right now, you know, like I guess the church that we're at, I don't know.
48:18I mean, so you call it—it's non-denominational.
48:20But like what does that mean?
48:21Because right, like IHOP was non-denominational too.
48:23So I guess in some ways it's not like I've really switched.
48:26But IHOP was not like a traditional non-denominational anything.
48:29It was a very—there was a very unique messaging there that you're not going to hear literally anywhere else.
48:34So it's not anything like IHOP.
48:36But yeah, I guess I've just like—I don't know.
48:38Mainly like I kind of am going like where my husband feels the most connected.
48:43And I feel, you know, it's not that I—I don't know.
48:46I grew up in a different kind of ministry culture.
48:49So I've always wrestled with like I don't really feel—there's nothing familiar about this to me.
48:56Like all the different places, right?
48:57Like I don't feel connected to people.
48:59No one's going to get me.
49:00No one's going to understand.
49:02Like and then what is church even?
49:04Like I used to feel really guilty because like once I had babies, I wasn't—it was just impractical to go to church in person.
49:11So I would web stream, you know, because like, you know, otherwise I'm like, well, I'll just be in the nursing mother's room anyway streaming.
49:16So I might as well be in my living room doing that, you know, like what's the point of being there in person?
49:19But I'd always feel guilty about it.
49:21And I think I just recently realized like I don't have to feel guilty about that because I don't think that going to a mega church,
49:28sitting there around thousands of people and then leaving is actually what the Bible meant anyway by church.
49:36You know, and it's a thing that's good for people.
49:38Like, you know, it's helpful to my husband, you know, so I'm not saying it's a bad thing,
49:43but I'm not saying it's like this biblically mandated thing that that's what it's supposed to look like.
49:47And so I feel like that's kind of a freedom for me of like, oh,
49:50I don't have to feel guilty that I'm not like a front rower every week, like in person.
49:53Like, yeah, we actually, you know, we stream every week, you know.
49:56But yeah, I don't know.
49:57So I guess I'm not like fully landed anywhere in particular either because it's hard.
50:02It's always been hard for me to connect with most preachers.
50:07And at IHOP, it was a little different.
50:09Like, I used to think that I was the only place ever that I'd ever connect with anybody.
50:12But it actually even got to a point where I wasn't connecting with anything they were saying either.
50:17Like, and then my later years, I was like sitting there like, wow, I'm not getting anything out of this.
50:22Like, I don't even know what he's saying.
50:25Like, what is he even saying?
50:26He's saying the same things I've heard for 20 years.
50:30Darrell Bock I remember that feeling.
50:32I sat down with a minister one day, and I was trying to explain that, you know,
50:36we had a different frame of reference than most people had.
50:39If you grow up in a cult, you know all the cult things.
50:42But a lot of the basics of Christianity, they really, they distract you.
50:47They don't want you to know the basics.
50:48They want you to know the extra biblical stuff.
50:51But then on the flip side, the people who are in normal churches,
50:55they have this normal church tradition that they assume everybody knows.
50:58So the trouble that I had when I started going into new churches was
51:02they were talking about things that they assumed everybody knew and believed,
51:06and, well, these weren't our core values.
51:08They were their core values.
51:09So fortunately, one of the churches had a, it was like a new Christian convert class.
51:15And even though I wasn't a new Christian, I sat through the class,
51:19and they took me through the basics of what is the gospel.
51:22And suddenly I realized I had no clue what the gospel was.
51:26I had this word that I called the gospel that meant something,
51:30nothing like the gospel actually was.
51:33So whenever you left this thing and you started entering new churches,
51:40what was it like just learning the gospel for the first time?
51:44I think that, like you said, like growing up at IHOP,
51:47I didn't hear a lot of the basics.
51:49And I assumed it was just because it's like, oh, well, we're above and beyond that.
51:53It's like everyone already knows that, and we're too elite for that, right?
51:56Like we need to be focused on all this stuff because the end is nigh, you know?
52:01And so, and then now, like after everything came out, I'm like,
52:05maybe that stuff was just too convicting, and that's why they didn't talk about it.
52:09In some cases, obviously not everybody was corrupt, but for those that were,
52:13like is that why you didn't talk about, you know, like basic morality?
52:17Yeah.
52:19Yeah, so, yeah, so I guess the gospel was more hitting me at a heart level.
52:26Yeah, like afterwards, you know, because it's not like I hadn't heard it.
52:30I guess it's just like we were preoccupied with other pursuits,
52:34you know, mainly eschatology.
52:38So, yeah, I don't know.
52:40And I'm still trying to, I feel like the gospel still hits me really hard.
52:43Like I'm still trying to wrap my mind around that.
52:46Or not my mind.
52:47I think it's more just like those, you know, like when you have those deep down,
52:50like gut feelings of like I may be telling myself the truth,
52:53but deep down I don't believe it, you know?
52:55I feel like I still have that wrestle.
52:57Yeah, it's hard.
52:58And I went through similar things that you're describing for years afterwards.
53:02And I remember one period of time in which somebody would ask me what I believed.
53:08You know, they're curious because I was in a cult.
53:11And my answer that week may not have matched the answer the week before or the week after.
53:16It was changing so rapidly because as you're deconstructing
53:20and you're pulling out parts of your foundation,
53:23when you take a certain piece out, the entire foundation changes.
53:26And so a lot of times it completely changes your core makeup and your core values.
53:33So if you could give any advice to people who are either thinking about leaving IHOP
53:39or people who have left and they're coping with trying to enter the real world
53:44and understand what is normal after leaving IHOP, what advice would you give them?
53:49You know, in some ways normal life is normal life.
53:52You know, because IHOP was a part of our lives, but it didn't necessarily—
53:56there's just different degrees at which we were all connected and involved.
53:59Like some people had jobs outside already and some people didn't.
54:02And those that were financially more dependent on, you know, racing support through there,
54:06those are the ones I feel for the most because they're having to completely regroup
54:09and, you know, deconstruct whatever level, you know, all at the same time.
54:14So, yeah, I guess like the most encouraging thing I could say is that you're not alone.
54:19You know, we all may be scattered across the country now.
54:22I feel like IHOP was a pretty transient place and most people aren't still there.
54:25There are some that are still in Kansas City,
54:27but there's just so many people that came through and went and left over the years.
54:31But there's a lot of people that, you know, all feel the same way,
54:35even though we all feel like we're—or at least many of us.
54:38I know I myself feel like I'm just like processing alone on an island, you know,
54:42because everyone in my current life has no idea about my former life, you know.
54:46We're not actually alone.
54:48There's a lot of other people that are experiencing, you know, the same feelings
54:52and they're not crazy and they're not weird.
54:54And that God is still there.
54:56You know, Jesus is still there through all of it.
54:59And, you know, He's fully able to lead us through the process
55:04and He's not afraid of the process.
55:06Well, that's good advice.
55:07Thank you so much for getting on here.
55:09I'm sure you're going to give a lot of people great encouragement.
55:12And thank you for doing this.
55:14Yeah, definitely. Thanks for having me.
55:16Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information,
55:18you can check us out on the web.
55:20You can find us at william-branham.org.
55:23For more about the dark side of the NAR,
55:25you can read Weaponize Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
55:30Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
55:55Weaponize Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
56:25Weaponize Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.