Detangling IHOPKC: The Urgency of the Hour - Episode 199 Branham Research Podcast
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Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John and Brantley discuss the origins and activities of the International House of Prayer (IHOPKC), delving into the role of key figures such as Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, and Paul Cain. The discussion traces how IHOP KC's formation is rooted in a series of prophetic histories and movements, drawing strong parallels between it and earlier movements like the Latter Rain. The conversation exposes questionable narratives regarding Bickle's personal story and the prophetic figures around him, particularly the messianic claims tied to Mike’s brother, Pat Bickle, who was prophesied to be healed but passed away. Despite these failed prophecies, the organization persisted, continuously reshaping its history and vision.
The dialogue also raises critical questions about the influence of real estate, finance, and the structural organization of IHOP KC, including its connection to the Kansas City Prophets. The influence of various charismatic leaders, the manipulation of prophetic histories, and the complexities of public perception versus internal realities are explored. The discussion points to potential manipulation in how the movement evolved and spread, using various tactics such as altering public records and encouraging testimonies as a distraction from failures in prophecy or internal controversy.
00:00 Introduction
01:05 The Creation of IHOPKC
03:05 Mike Bickle's Shifting Histories and Stage Personas
05:40 The Influence of Prophetic History and Timelines
07:10 Mike Bickle’s Family and Connections
09:00 Real Estate, Finance, and Organizational Structure
11:30 IHOP KC's Growth and the Influence of Latter Rain
14:30 Pat Bickle’s Failed Prophecies and the Impact
17:00 Evolution of IHOP’s Prophetic History
20:05 Mike Bickle’s Early Ministry and Influence of Bob Jones
22:00 Kansas City Prophets and Foundational Figures
25:05 The Role of Paul Cain and the Influence of William Branham
29:00 John Wimber’s Role in IHOP’s National Influence
33:00 Ernie Gruen’s Criticism and Kansas City Prophets Controversy
36:45 Analysis of the Prophetic Movement’s Influence on IHOP
42:30 Testimonies and Name-Dropping Tactics in the Movement
45:10 Bob Jones’s Incoherent Prophecies and Mike Bickle’s Interpretation
47:45 Revival Mechanics and the Perception of Growth
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
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– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
John and Brantley discuss the origins and activities of the International House of Prayer (IHOPKC), delving into the role of key figures such as Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, and Paul Cain. The discussion traces how IHOP KC's formation is rooted in a series of prophetic histories and movements, drawing strong parallels between it and earlier movements like the Latter Rain. The conversation exposes questionable narratives regarding Bickle's personal story and the prophetic figures around him, particularly the messianic claims tied to Mike’s brother, Pat Bickle, who was prophesied to be healed but passed away. Despite these failed prophecies, the organization persisted, continuously reshaping its history and vision.
The dialogue also raises critical questions about the influence of real estate, finance, and the structural organization of IHOP KC, including its connection to the Kansas City Prophets. The influence of various charismatic leaders, the manipulation of prophetic histories, and the complexities of public perception versus internal realities are explored. The discussion points to potential manipulation in how the movement evolved and spread, using various tactics such as altering public records and encouraging testimonies as a distraction from failures in prophecy or internal controversy.
00:00 Introduction
01:05 The Creation of IHOPKC
03:05 Mike Bickle's Shifting Histories and Stage Personas
05:40 The Influence of Prophetic History and Timelines
07:10 Mike Bickle’s Family and Connections
09:00 Real Estate, Finance, and Organizational Structure
11:30 IHOP KC's Growth and the Influence of Latter Rain
14:30 Pat Bickle’s Failed Prophecies and the Impact
17:00 Evolution of IHOP’s Prophetic History
20:05 Mike Bickle’s Early Ministry and Influence of Bob Jones
22:00 Kansas City Prophets and Foundational Figures
25:05 The Role of Paul Cain and the Influence of William Branham
29:00 John Wimber’s Role in IHOP’s National Influence
33:00 Ernie Gruen’s Criticism and Kansas City Prophets Controversy
36:45 Analysis of the Prophetic Movement’s Influence on IHOP
42:30 Testimonies and Name-Dropping Tactics in the Movement
45:10 Bob Jones’s Incoherent Prophecies and Mike Bickle’s Interpretation
47:45 Revival Mechanics and the Perception of Growth
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/sit
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00You
00:30Welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast. I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham historical research at william-branham.org. And with me, I have my co host and friend Brantley Smith, former member of the International House of Prayer. And together we are detangling IHOPKC and the New Apostolic Reformation. Brantley is good to be back.
01:00And to talk about all things IHOPKC. For those who aren't aware, that's the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. And I'm going to take a deep dive into what is the International House of Prayer. And we mentioned right before this, for the sake of this episode and the series of episodes, pretend that I know nothing.
01:24Because, as I explained, from a person on the outside, if I'm talking to people on the outside, I know quite a bit. But if you were in it, there are things that you know or even sometimes perceive in a different way than I do. And so it's somebody on the inside would say, well, John knows nothing. And in fact, I recently had a person tell me this. You know nothing about IHOPKC. And I'm referencing scholars and what they're saying about IHOPKC.
01:53So pretend I know nothing. And today let's take a deep dive examining the creation of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City.
02:05Yeah, it's going to be a fun conversation. I'm really excited that we're getting to do this series of episodes on IHOPKC. Everybody seems to be responding to it well. I've really enjoyed interacting with everyone in the comments around our episodes and stuff on YouTube channel.
02:24And so I'm excited today to dig into kind of the origins of IHOPKC. And it's always the founder's myth, the lore that sets the foundation for these movements. And I know you're very familiar with that.
02:40And as I was going through and giving myself some refreshers around Mike Bickle in the early days and stuff, I couldn't help but think about whenever you talk about William Branham and his many personas.
02:53Yeah, that's one thing that really surprised me. And honestly it took a while to develop that notion, that idea. Because the problem that I was having is I worked with this guy who was trying to detangle what was latter rain in the message.
03:11And he had created these timelines. And the problem was he was creating a timeline and then he would find statements by Branham or others in the movement that defied their own timelines that they had given.
03:24And so you can't have two competing timelines with completely sometimes years of difference in dates and everything's out of order. And then we would find more and more. And sometimes there would be, I don't know, 10, 15 different accounts of timelines, none of which could possibly fit together.
03:42And I came to realize that if you're making stuff up, you're not going to remember the timeline. And that was really the essence of this.
03:51Sounds like the prophetic history at IHOP.
03:54Exactly. So I came to realize that no, you know, when there's another word for it that begins with BS. But whenever you are creating your own perception of your history, your own perception of your own history, and it's all fictional, it can never match.
04:13And it is a stage persona. So that's why I started using the term. But it even goes far beyond that, because in some cases, and I'm referring to the Branham ism, in some cases, it was just outright lying for the sake of hiding and concealing the history, which is interesting, because as we get into this, I'm wanting to see the similarities between even that and IHOPKC.
04:38Yeah, for sure. The other thing that stuck out to me that really isn't super relevant to the grand narrative today was that Mike had a newspaper interview whenever he was around 18 years old.
04:53And there was one phrase that we talked about, I think, in our first conversation that Mike pops out in this newspaper article with at 18 years old, which was they said what Mike Bickle refers to as the urgency of the hour. And I was like, man, this guy has been saying this stuff from day one. I was like, where do you as an 18 year old, where do you come up with this?
05:17And it was their own take of, we called it the message of the hour. And that was the phrase that was used all through Ladder Rain. And so to conceal the past of it being directly from William Branham, it was called the urgency of the hour instead of the message of the hour.
05:36Man, so I guess we can dive in and kind of talk about Mike's early life. Because I mean, Mike, as the founder of IHOPKC, is kind of the figurehead, I mean, through its whole existence until he was, quote unquote, permanently separated in December of 2023. But we'll see how all that shakes out.
06:00But one of the interesting things about Mike, you'll hear people throw around this label of Mike being the son of a boxer. And so Mike had an upbringing in a house where his dad was actually an Olympic boxer.
06:14Back in that day, people speculate that boxing had some ties to organized crime and stuff like that. But there's not really a lot of clear connections or evidence around that. But Mike was one of a handful of kids.
06:28He had one brother, and he's got a handful of sisters, and two of them are prominently involved in the IHOPKC world.
06:37His sister Lisa leads, and her husband, I think his name's Ray, lead the Hope City prayer room in the inner city of Kansas City, which what's curious about that is they claim that they're no longer affiliated, Hope City and IHOPKC.
06:55Whenever I was at IHOPKC, I used to lead sets in the Hope City prayer room as part of my requirements. And so it was very much a part of IHOPKC.
07:04But they do inner city ministry and stuff down there.
07:08And Mike and Misty Edwards and a couple other people have been spotted down there since Mike was permanently separated from IHOP.
07:17And then he has another sister that's been pretty prominent through all this, which her name's Tracy.
07:22And she led, I can't remember what her official title was, but I think she was pastoral care or restoration and recovery.
07:33I've seen a couple different terms thrown out, but if you get close to the IHOP world, you'll start hearing ministries like Pure Heart and Living Waters were some things that caused a lot of harm to people that were inner healing things.
07:51And I believe that they participate in gay conversion therapy within those programs.
07:59And so it's very much a family affair.
08:05And in modern day IHOP, Mike Bickle's wife ran a realty business that was actually in the Redbridge Center, which is where the prayer room was.
08:17That was what we referred to as the mission's base, which now I think, man, we might have had a cult compound and not realized it with a full apartment complex next door.
08:30We had a coffee shop, bookstore, all here in the strip mall.
08:34And then we had Mike's wife's real estate business that was there, which quickly closed down once all the allegations and stuff broke in 2020.
08:47And so that's been interesting.
08:49But Mike lived in this house with the boxer as a dad, had a rough upbringing.
08:55People speculate it was an abusive household and different things like that.
08:59But from what I've gathered, his mom was actually Catholic, and he didn't actually have a quote-unquote salvation experience until he was about 15 years old.
09:09And he was a big football guy and a big wrestling guy, Mike was.
09:14And what I thought was funny about his conversion story was actually Roger Staubach of the Dallas Cowboys was responsible for delivering the message at a FCA event in Colorado when Mike gave his life to the Lord, in air quotes if you're not watching the video.
09:33You know, you mentioned the real estate business, and I'm not going to go too deep with that.
09:39There might be a little bit of risk with that.
09:41But real estate businesses are a good way to move a lot of money, and it's a good way to move a lot of money off of the books.
09:48So that gets interesting.
09:50I'm not saying that they are, you know.
09:52I'll let you researchers who want to dig, dig deeper into that.
09:56But if you go to my website and you have dug deeply through it, you've noticed that there are a lot of real estate businesses and entities in a lot of the legal documents that I have published.
10:06And there's a reason for that.
10:08So I'll let the researchers dig through that.
10:12But, you know, the fact that it closed down, that's another red flag for me.
10:17But whenever you when you just take a step back from away from all of that, you've got a movement that is claiming that it's the end of the world.
10:26And, you know, we're building Joel's army, all of all of the rhetoric that they push on you and get you into this hype.
10:35And then you start to see things like the real estate business.
10:38While you're in it, you're kind of scratching.
10:40Why do you need this, man?
10:42If this is if Jesus is about to return, why do I need a real estate business?
10:47And I, you know, even though I didn't have any of the information that I had now, I have family that were pretty, pretty big into real estate and had some ties to some football teams, also the Dallas Cowboys.
11:01So there there's some weirdness there, too, which I also won't get into.
11:06But all of this to say there are so many similarities beyond just the religious aspects of it.
11:14If you just look at the structural integrity of IHOPKC and compare it to what spun off of ladder range, you're going to see all of these weird things.
11:22And it doesn't mean they're all bad.
11:24You know, maybe somebody wants to make money with a real estate business, but it does make you ask some questions because why do they need it?
11:32The scope of these organizations, I think, is the hardest thing for people to grasp.
11:39You know, I've went down some of those research rabbit holes.
11:43And even outside of, you know, real estate business, you start looking at all the LLCs and nonprofits and for profits and the different things that pop up.
11:54It's hard for people to wrap their head around how massive IHOP was organizationally with its own marketing teams, with its own security teams.
12:06You know, you had a whole team that was dedicated to running the prayer room.
12:09You had people who were dedicated, a team for processing donations, another team for fundraising.
12:15I mean, we're talking vast different projects that they're doing at one time.
12:22And then you've got your businesses, the coffee shops and the bookstore that we talked about a minute ago.
12:27I think that's the hardest thing when somebody's first approaching IHOPKC is realizing that it's more than just a church.
12:36I think a lot of people think that it's just the little prayer room in Kansas City, and you start seeing that it has tentacles everywhere.
12:44Even internationally, and so one of the big things in Mike's early days that I think is crucial for us to talk about,
12:56especially as hopefully in future episodes we'll start diving into the prophetic history and stuff with Mike's upbringing,
13:02is his brother had an accident playing football when I think the brother is probably around 17 years old or so, and it made him a quadriplegic.
13:13At the time Mike was off at college in St. Louis when Pat, Pat Bickle was his brother's name, when he had the accident,
13:22from what we could tell, Mike went to go help take care of him.
13:26His dad died shortly after of a heart attack after Pat got hurt.
13:32But a lot of the prophetic history hinges on the promise of Pat being healed.
13:40If you don't want a spoiler, you can mute for the next five seconds, but spoiler alert!
13:45Pat passed away in 2007, and he was not healed, which is really interesting because I came to IHOP in 2008 right after that had happened.
13:56I hardly ever heard anyone talk about Pat.
14:00It was very discouraging, I think, to the community there because of all these prophetic promises and stuff.
14:06It was kind of the elephant in the room, and I think what led to one of the many revisions of the prophetic history.
14:15Just recalling from memory, there was what they called the Encountering Jesus series, which was about 12 episodes, I believe.
14:25Then I think it was in 2009-2010 when I was there, they re-recorded an eight-episode version.
14:32But what you see through the evolution simply is the removal of some of the problematic figures from the central narrative.
14:39Pat Bickle not being healed, you start to see distance being made between Paul Cain and Bob Jones at times,
14:46to the point that some of the Kansas City prophets don't get mentioned at all in the prophetic history anymore because of their own problematic issues.
14:57But Mike always moved around a lot in the early days, it seemed.
15:05One of my friends, Allie Henney, she's an author and stuff, she helped put together a timeline of pretty much IHOP's history
15:18and tying it in with all the abuse allegations that were made and where Mike's been and different things like that.
15:23It looks like between 1977 and 1982, before Mike came back to Kansas City, he pastored three different churches.
15:29Prior to that, he was doing a large campus ministry.
15:33He had his hands all over and didn't stay in one place for too long,
15:40which sounded familiar as well from conversations that I have heard you have.
15:47And that's one of the things that really is mind-boggling to me, the fact that so much was built around Pat Bickle and his healing,
15:57and then whenever it failed, in the normal world, whenever somebody is claiming,
16:03hey, I'm going to do this thing, and then when it doesn't happen, everybody just kind of dissipates and they leave.
16:09They don't think about it.
16:11But in these religious scenarios, they're so wrapped up in it, in the groupthink,
16:16that it's like they absorb the false thing and then just keep on going and ignore that it ever happened.
16:23Mentally, they ignore that it happened.
16:25And we saw the same thing in the Branhamism, which all of this sprang from.
16:30And before Branhamism, during the latter reign, time and time and time again, there were people that didn't get healed.
16:37There were people whose family members were quote-unquote prophesied for their healing,
16:44and the family members watched them die, and they stayed in the movement.
16:48That gets really weird.
16:50Why did they stay?
16:51What was the reason why they did?
16:54And what happens is the future generations, after those older generations died off, they don't know that history.
17:01They don't realize that it's not all true.
17:03But they're told it is.
17:05And the person who's making the prophetic claim, they're repeating phrases like it's 100% accurate every time.
17:13It never fails.
17:14It can't fail because God never fails, that kind of thing.
17:17And so the younger generation, who is unaware of the failures, they assume that it has never failed until they wake up and go look.
17:26And it's mind-boggling that people can entertain even the notion that somebody can make a claim like this without even having to look.
17:36One of the things that has been super helpful for me in detangling all this is being able to interact with those people
17:45who were involved in these different generations of Mike's ministry.
17:50Mike's ministry and the things he's been doing went on before IHOP even existed with the eschatology, the emphasis on prayer, the prophetic.
17:58And so during all of the allegation process, we saw a lot of networking happen.
18:04I've been able to connect with a lot of people who were there at Metro Vineyard, which later became Metro Christian Fellowship in Kansas City, which was Mike's church.
18:13And hearing the stories of some of the stuff that they would talk about with us, that they're like,
18:20man, I can't believe Mike's still saying that.
18:23We saw through it back then, and now he's brought it back around.
18:26Or even hearing some of the teachings that they heard that I would hear, and I was like, why did you guys believe that?
18:33And so you've seen that things were always evolving and always changing.
18:37But it was really rare to see those figureheads, though, last from the 80s to the 2000s whenever I was there.
18:45And those families were pretty well known and were cornerstones in the community there as mentors and arguably Mike's enforcers at times.
19:00So it's real interesting when you start diving into that stuff.
19:05But the Kansas City prophet era, that's the one era that I didn't get to witness.
19:10I was born in 91, so I was just a wee lad whenever they were in their heyday.
19:18But Mike comes because of a prophetic word to Kansas City in 82, which we'll get into sometime about Bob Jones, meeting Bob Jones.
19:28And there was the story about the snow that would come in the spring, and then when the snow melts, Mike would accept Bob as a prophet.
19:39And that has ties to Pat Bickle and Mike's dad dying and a promise that Mike made to his dad on his deathbed to take care of Pat.
19:51And so he claims Bob tells him stuff that only God would have known, and his dad, who was no longer with us.
20:00And so once he gets in Kansas City, you start seeing all these prophetic figures come in.
20:05And so much of this stuff feels like it's been scrubbed, and it's hard to find kind of what happened during that era, how Mike became connected to Paul Cain.
20:16I've heard there's a couple different theories around that, how he came into the picture.
20:20And I don't know if you are aware of any of those stories or not.
20:25I wish I was.
20:27Part of the other reason why I use the term stage persona with Branham is that the persona that has been created has a completely erased and fictional history.
20:39We have been able to piece together some of the things that have been erased, and we've built literally a completely different view of the man's life than what he claimed in his stage persona.
20:52And his stage persona had many different versions of what he claimed was his past.
20:57Mike Bickle is fascinating to me.
21:00In fact, it's part of the reason why I started digging into IHOPKC, because it's as though that era has just been completely wiped from the slate.
21:09Nobody can look into it.
21:11If you go to any critical source online about the formation of the IHOPKC, they will mention that the Kansas City Prophets exist.
21:20But how that came to be, it's like this big mystery to everyone.
21:24And why is this?
21:26And so as I noticed that, and I noticed also that Paul Cain was a big influencer, I realized that they're trying to do the same thing Branham did and create this illusion, this mirage, if you will.
21:40And what happened in that history, I don't know if we'll ever have all of the details.
21:46But I can say that some of the men who were getting into this worked with the greatest of masterminds of creating a stage persona.
21:55Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because whenever you look at the, you know, Wikipedia, you never know what you're getting with Wikipedia.
22:03But if you look up the Kansas City Prophets on Wikipedia, they list a laundry list of people who were involved as the Kansas City Prophets.
22:10The ones that most everybody, if you were IHOP, you knew Bob Jones, Paul Cain.
22:14Those were the ones you knew.
22:16But Rick Joyner had some proximity.
22:21One of the other primary ones you hear a lot about was John Paul Jackson, which honestly I knew very little about.
22:28I've been told he was a dream interpreter of sorts.
22:32So we'll have to dive into him a little bit.
22:35But Bill Heyman was a name that stuck out to me because I think he's got involvement a little bit everywhere, correct?
22:41Yeah, he does.
22:43And James Gall, Jim Gall, which he's still – I think he's up in the Pacific Northwest.
22:48And he had some interesting things to say once the allegations broke against Mike Bickle on social media last year.
22:56So there's this whole cast of characters, and Jill Austin was another one, which she popped her head up at IHOP around the time that I got there.
23:09One of the things that people probably don't realize about IHOP being a charismatic church,
23:15people have a kind of expectation in their heads whenever they walk into a Pentecostal charismatic environment
23:22and expect it to be very lively and demonstrative.
23:26And honestly, IHOP was kind of like the opposite of that to a certain degree.
23:32It was very subdued to be a charismatic place.
23:36I mean, you're doing your long hours in the prayer room,
23:38and it could go from meditative to militaristic over the course of an hour or so with the worship and the music.
23:48But I remember Jill Austin being there whenever I first got there,
23:52and it was a huge deal because she had prophesied over a certain worship leader who had just arrived
23:59and also has connections to the executive leadership team and a lot to unpack there.
24:08But what I remember was the chaos that Jill brought with her.
24:11So like what's normally the subdued orderly prayer room, this place turned into what looked like the Toronto Revival,
24:18like people just rolling all over the place and very demonstrative.
24:23And so I think that's a very common misconception with IHOP.
24:27And even me walking in as someone new to the culture,
24:33growing up in Pentecostal, Assembly of God-type churches, was worship.
24:37You stood on your feet, you lifted your hands, you clapped your hands, you danced a little bit, you engaged your body, you sang.
24:45If you went to a weekend service at IHOP, and they do corporate worship usually for an hour,
24:50and then Mike would preach for an hour is usually what would happen.
24:54And you would walk in and they'd be playing an upbeat song,
24:57and you'd look around and probably 20% of the room was sitting on their butts and staring at their Bibles.
25:03And it was just an odd thing because I'd never encountered that,
25:06and probably still haven't to this day in any kind of religious environment that I've walked into.
25:13Darrell Bock I'm surprised that you're able to keep talking because as you're talking,
25:16the audience can't see this, but I was off looking on another monitor.
25:20You mentioned something and my brain went squirrel.
25:24In the Branham cult, the William Branham Wikipedia page, if you read through it,
25:29it's actually fairly accurate now. It's got a lot of stuff in it.
25:32But if you click on the history tab, you see that there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of edits
25:38where there are cult drones, drones meaning people,
25:43who are pouncing on anybody who adds critical information, and they were reverting it, continuously reverting it.
25:49And so when you mentioned Mike Bickle's Wikipedia page,
25:52I just had to pull it up and click on the history and reverted, reverted, reverted, reverted.
25:57These people are cleansing the history.
26:00And some of those are like reverted, removed.
26:03One of them I was reading here says reverted, removed all references.
26:07Why would you do this, man?
26:09That's the kind of tactics that the cults take.
26:13Now, I don't have the exact edit, so I can't see what it was.
26:16But I know that I've worked with people who've tried to get the critical information into some of these cult Wikipedia pages.
26:23And I think the cult must pay people to sit on the pages and then keep it cleansed,
26:30so that if any cult member were to look, they don't get the critical information.
26:34So I'm assuming that's what's going on here.
26:37But anyway, that's why I was looking here while you were talking.
26:40I had to know.
26:42I've speculated a lot of the same stuff with IHOPKC through all this.
26:46We have a term for it.
26:48We don't call them drones.
26:49We call them Bicklebots is what we call them,
26:52who are people who seem to be loyal and nonstop, specifically whenever it comes to the Twitterverse.
26:59And so you screed one thing about Mike, and all of a sudden here comes about five of them coming to his defense.
27:06In today's world, it's chat, GP, Bickle.
27:09Yes, yes.
27:10That is what it seems.
27:12That is what it seems.
27:14Oh, man.
27:16So I guess going back to the prophets,
27:19the one piece of information that I would like to find out would be how Mike's church in Kansas City,
27:28the prophets start to gather.
27:30They start doing some things.
27:32There was a prophecy called the Blueprint Prophecy,
27:35which I think John Paul Jackson was involved with the execution of this.
27:39I think it's part of the reason why we don't hear a lot about him now.
27:41But they really tried to make a one city church, if you will,
27:47and so kind of trying to set Mike up as the apostle of Kansas City or the greater Kansas City area.
27:52And they had prophetic words about congregations on like five different parts of the city,
27:57and there being one central hub.
27:59And from what I've heard, which, you know, again, you can't find a lot as far as research on it,
28:05but that there was a lot of hostile takeovers of local church congregations from what I've heard.
28:11And some of these guys that got brought into the movement and became leaders and so forth,
28:17pastors of these churches that willingly kind of like handed their keys over to the prophets.
28:24But the thing that I don't know is when they became a vineyard church.
28:30I do know that we talked a little bit about John Wimber before,
28:34but John Wimber was the one who was responsible for platforming the Kansas City prophets.
28:40And I think that the Kansas City prophets had done some things for Wimber that were very meaningful to him personally
28:52in words that they had given him and some other results that he had seen because of that
28:58to where he became firm believers in these Kansas City prophets.
29:04And another fun bunny trail there, though, is that the vineyard churches were probably the ones
29:11who pioneered what we know as like the modern worship movement.
29:16You had like those worship courses and stuff that were coming out of the Jesus movement with the hippies.
29:21You got Calvary Chapel and Vineyard people all down there in that when they ended up parting ways.
29:27Which is also a big piece of the IHOP, the music and the songwriting.
29:32And we see it in any ministry, quote-unquote, worth their salt right now is writing songs prolifically.
29:40Bethel is writing songs. Elevation Church is writing songs.
29:44Hillsong's been writing songs for decades that we've been singing in our churches.
29:48And so I think we see Vineyard as one of the first denominations, if you will, who start doing that.
29:57But where that vineyard connection originated, I'm not quite sure because the Kansas City Church became Metro Vineyard
30:04and were later, I think, kicked out of the vineyard by Wimber.
30:08From what I've been told, Wimber on his deathbed pretty much said his relation to the Kansas City prophets
30:16was like his biggest regret in platforming them.
30:20Wimber was also responsible for them to get some worldwide recognition.
30:25They used to do a lot of tours through the UK with the Kansas City prophets.
30:31And during that time, Mike had local pastors because the hostile takeovers were going on.
30:38There's a guy that we'll have to, we could probably do a whole episode on Ernie Gruen
30:43and all the things that he had to say about Mike Bickle and his sermon and his open letter that he wrote
30:49about what he called abhorrent practices of the Kansas City prophets or something like that.
30:55And he kind of critiqued a lot of their theology.
30:59But that's really when Mike got his worldwide momentum, where Mike started to become a well-known national leader,
31:09was because of John Wimber and the influence of the vineyard churches.
31:13Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,
31:17or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
31:22Charismatic and other fringe movements, into the New Apostolic Reformation?
31:27You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
31:32william-branham.org
31:34On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
31:42John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:48You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
31:55If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.
32:01And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
32:08On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
32:13One of the things that I did early on, whenever I began the Branham Research,
32:18there's only one of me, and it's very difficult to dig through archives.
32:23It's very time-consuming.
32:25And so I just put a call out there.
32:27Anybody who's willing to dig, and if you're in the area and capable, then send me some information.
32:32I'll compile it and organize it for you, and I'll do the same thing here.
32:36So I'm blanket, offer a blanket statement for IHOP, Casey, if you're in the area and you're able to dig.
32:44One of the things that I've been wanting to do, and I just simply don't have time to drive there,
32:50when you go to these old Pentecostal churches, it's very interesting because they keep complete histories.
32:58They're so proud of their history.
33:00They archive everything.
33:02I mean, right down to somebody, some lady needed prayer.
33:07Sometimes you'll find that in one of their archives.
33:10It was Sunday, and she needed prayer.
33:12That kind of thing is in existence.
33:16And many of the apostolic churches that Mike Bickle was involved with, if they are on the up-and-up,
33:24they will have that archive because that's the way Pentecostal churches are behaving.
33:29And when he took them over, if the archives are erased, that in itself is a telltale sign.
33:36There's something going on here.
33:38So if you're in the area, and you've probably seen my videos, you can look at some of the names of the churches.
33:45These people are very friendly.
33:47I went to one in Mishawaka for the Branham churches.
33:50They opened the door up.
33:52The minister, he was helping me bring stacks of books open on the floor so I could take photographs of it.
33:59And I got quite a bit of history that completely overturned the stage persona.
34:05And I have a feeling that if you dig into some of these apostolic churches that Bickle was involved with,
34:12if it is a stage persona, then you should be able to find some things like that.
34:16So I'll make a call out there to anybody who's willing to help.
34:19We'll gladly accept it.
34:21Absolutely, absolutely.
34:23It's been interesting to see what we've been able to pull together just since the—whenever the allegations broke,
34:29that was kind of a watershed moment, I think, for the post-IHOP community because so many of us banded together,
34:34as I mentioned earlier.
34:36And one of the big things there was the research and such that was happening and tying stuff together.
34:42I'm in a couple group chats with friends who are former IHOPers, and we're always discussing this kind of stuff.
34:49And one of the things that I found out last night as we're just kind of digging around is one of the guys that's on Morningstar's board
34:56and IHOP's board tried to run for president in 2016, which none of us were aware of.
35:01And so we're always running across fun nuggets like that that just help paint a picture of who these guys are.
35:10And so what stands out to me, though, as you're talking about Pentecostal churches, is during my time at IHOP,
35:19it seemed like there was a distancing from the Pentecostal label.
35:24And some of that is I wonder if they were starting to see the pieces put together.
35:28I remember there being statements on the website that they did not believe in Latter-Rain theology and different things like that,
35:37which me being a 17-year-old, I had no idea what Latter-Rain theology was.
35:42They say they're not believing Latter-Rain theology.
35:44I take them for their word and sign up to be in Joel's army, you know.
35:49So that's just how that went.
35:52And our groups, they covered it up as well.
35:55I had no idea until after I left that it was involved with Latter-Rain.
35:58And come to find out, the guy spearheaded the whole movement.
36:01So it's, you know, there probably is a separation.
36:06And I think that's why that's one of the most one of the areas I really want to focus on,
36:13because if there is that separation, some of that history can likely exist in those archives.
36:19So it would be good to dig into that.
36:21I have started digging from what I can piece together.
36:25And there is a clear sign.
36:29There's a clear evidence that Mike Bickle was influenced by people who were influenced by Latter-Rain.
36:35So the foundation was there.
36:37He was aware of it whenever all of this happened.
36:40And then you combine.
36:42I don't have a lot of history, but I do have some history on Wember.
36:45When you combine those two together and then bring Paul Cain into the picture,
36:51now you've got this triad that gets really, really odd, because Paul Cain was trying to recreate Branhamism.
36:59Bob Jones is the one that, for me, it's just mind-boggling, because I look at him,
37:04and I think he's the oddball of the bunch.
37:07He doesn't look completely sane to me.
37:11He's a country bumpkin.
37:13That's what he was.
37:14And just came somewhat out of nowhere.
37:18I would like to dig into his history a bit further and see where all of his influences are as well.
37:24From what I've heard, he was there in the Kansas City area just bouncing around churches.
37:30That's the story that's told, is that he would pop into these churches,
37:33just local small little Baptist church or whatever church he stumbled across,
37:37and they kept running him off because he kept spouting off these prophecies
37:41and all these things that guy would say, and they're like, this guy's crazy.
37:44Get him out of here.
37:45And then finally, I guess he walks into Mike's office, and Mike saw it.
37:48I don't know if Mike saw it as an opportunity.
37:50I can't piece it all together there, but it seems like most of the Kansas City metro area
37:57had a pretty good idea of what Bob Jones was and reacted appropriately.
38:02Mike Pickle decided to weaponize him, it seems.
38:05And that's why I think there has to be more to that story,
38:08because whenever you've made a name for yourself like this,
38:11you don't choose that guy to be one of your founding fathers of the organization.
38:16That's not how it works.
38:17My gut tells me that he was connected to Cain somehow, and Cain was helping push that influence.
38:23But until I dig into him further, which I haven't yet had time to do,
38:28I think it will probably speak for itself when we get his background.
38:33Yeah, for sure.
38:35There was one story that I just had remembered,
38:38and the reason I had remembered it is because this person, this figure,
38:41was significant in my life personally, because he ended up coming to my home church at one point.
38:46There was this worship leader from the St. Louis area,
38:50and he was kind of in that same vein as the Vineyard guys.
38:54And that may have been, honestly, it might have been Vineyard, Maranatha kind of stuff
38:58that he got started with, a guy named Kent Henry.
39:01I don't know if you'd heard of him before.
39:04I reckon he was pretty popular in the 80s, but he still has ministry today.
39:10But the story that Mike would tell is because Kent ended up showing up at IHOP
39:15whenever I was there during the awakening.
39:17And I think his daughter was going to the ministry school,
39:21and I had a brief interaction with him.
39:23And he remembered I was a little kid at church,
39:26and I was standing at the product table after the service,
39:28and he gave me one of his CDs for free.
39:31And he actually remembered that moment and stuff.
39:33But Mike talked about – because at first, whenever Mike got saved,
39:38I think he was just hard-lined evangelical.
39:40He wasn't really charismatic, wasn't quote-unquote spirit-filled.
39:43I don't know if that – did that term get thrown around a lot in the Branham circles
39:48of spirit-filled churches versus non-spirit-filled churches?
39:51Darrell Bock Absolutely.
39:52And those that were non-spirit-filled were apostate.
39:55They were the bad guys who are good guys.
39:57They were the evil Christians, and we were the good Christians.
40:00I think I would have had better luck picking up a girl off the street
40:04than bringing a Baptist girl home in my family.
40:07I think that would have been the ultimate sin there.
40:13But Mike ended up, I guess, going to these prayer meetings
40:16that Kent Henry was doing in St. Louis,
40:19which this could be a founder's myth of sorts that he's constructed.
40:23But he talked about that he would go to these meetings,
40:26and they would be singing in tongues and praying in the Spirit in this meeting,
40:31and he had never been around that.
40:32And I think that's kind of when Mike claims that he became open to these things.
40:38But there's figures like that that I look at,
40:42and it just makes me want to ask more questions,
40:45because Kent Henry is somebody that I've seen all over outside of IHOP.
40:49Was it just a person that Mike could use just for his story
40:52and to lend credibility to himself?
40:55I'm not quite sure, but apparently that's whenever he became charismatic
41:00is what he would tell us.
41:01Yeah.
41:02I went through, whenever I left the Branham cult and I began researching,
41:07I went through a phase where I was literally searching the transcripts for names
41:13so that I could go dig into the names and figure out who is this person,
41:17what do they have.
41:19There was some value in it.
41:21I'm not going to say that it all was bad,
41:24but what I learned, at least from the Branham side,
41:27is when you have a stage persona and you're creating fiction,
41:31you're creating a world of fiction,
41:33one of the things that the deceivers like to do is to throw out names
41:38because they're red herrings.
41:40As they're talking, they can throw out a name,
41:42and there's two kinds of names that they throw out.
41:46One kind of name that they throw out is somebody who has some claim to fame,
41:51some famous guy or whatever who was connected to the ministry.
41:54They love name dropping.
41:56So that's a distraction.
41:58Your mind goes to the famous name and you're thinking,
42:00oh, this is legitimate because I recognize that name.
42:04The other one is they drop names of very insignificant people
42:08so that if you go try to dig on the side story, you come up with nothing.
42:13You come up empty-handed.
42:15And while the name is dropping and you're thinking of the name,
42:19the BS can flow from the mouth as fluently as it can flow,
42:24and you're going to absorb the BS while you're thinking of the name.
42:29And, again, I can't say that that's the case for all of it,
42:33but I can say that a huge part of it was just the mechanics
42:37of how somebody who's pulling a con like this operates.
42:42There's a lot of red herrings,
42:43and if you're caught up in trying to find the red herrings,
42:46you'll miss the bigger picture is what I found.
42:49I think the prophetic history functioned as that distraction for us a lot.
42:54There was a lot of buzzwords that were totally extra biblical
43:00and phrases that we would have staked our lives on.
43:05So I'm trying to think of some of them that got thrown around a lot
43:09whenever I was there because in 2008 to 2012 when I was there,
43:14that was probably IHOP's biggest season of growth
43:17and arguably the largest point of the ministry
43:22because right after that is whenever Bethany Deaton,
43:28she passed away after that time,
43:31and there's tons of speculation around that
43:35and the cult that operated within the cult at IHOP.
43:38I was in class with all those people.
43:41I saw most of those people on a daily basis,
43:46but that was the time when IHOP saw the most growth.
43:50Yeah, I would agree.
43:52The prophetic buzzwords as you call them,
43:55it's much like Branham's name dropping,
43:58and Bickle had that to his advantage I think
44:01because there was this latter rain healing revival
44:04that developed in the charismatic movement,
44:06and he was riding that wave,
44:09and so he had a lot of names that he could drop,
44:11and the fact that Paul Kane came into this
44:14and was Branham's protege,
44:17it gave some significance to the movement.
44:20Again, I'm a bit baffled at the Bob Jones connection
44:24because everything that I've read and studied about him is just odd.
44:28It's not somebody you'd normally pick.
44:31It doesn't make sense,
44:33but the fact that you have somebody like that,
44:35like Paul Kane,
44:37and your influence of the group,
44:40it builds the names around it
44:42so people like Bob Jones can function in the way that they did.
44:46Just taking a step back,
44:49it's the setup for disaster
44:51if you really think about what's happening here.
44:53What's funny is if you ever listen to a recording
44:56of Mike and Bob together,
44:58which there's videos you can find on YouTube
45:00and stuff of them talking,
45:02half of what Bob says is about incoherent.
45:06You hear him use these flowery language and stuff,
45:09and we had mentioned my favorite reference, I think,
45:13from that Great Prophet rock opera album
45:16that talks about the Kansas City prophets a couple weeks ago
45:18was the English interpreter of English
45:21because that's exactly what Mike did for Bob.
45:24Bob would spout off incoherent things,
45:27and every once in a while,
45:28he would land a phrase of some sort.
45:32I'm thinking through those buzzwords and stuff.
45:34I'm not sure if this one originated with Bob,
45:36but they would always say that
45:38no disease known to man would stand before these people.
45:42There was all these different phrases like that,
45:44and then Bob would say something,
45:47and then Mike would come in and tell you what it means.
45:49I don't even know if Bob knew what he was saying half the time.
45:51It's just Mike would come in there,
45:53and he almost works as a patsy or something.
45:56To be honest, the way that he plays the middleman
45:59of like Bob says,
46:01the Chiefs are going to win the Super Bowl,
46:03and Mike goes,
46:04when the Chiefs win the Super Bowl,
46:05revival's coming.
46:07He would fill in the blanks in such odd ways.
46:10But those buzzwords,
46:12it was the no disease known to man.
46:14It was the people without mixture
46:16would give the spirit without measure.
46:19The 500 to 5,000,
46:21that's what I was really thinking about
46:22when I was talking about the explosion of growth at IHOP
46:25because at that time,
46:27I think it was about 1,000 people.
46:29I think we had about 500 students.
46:31We had about 500 staff somewhere in that ballpark.
46:34It was close up to 1,000,
46:35so all of us were sitting there looking like,
46:37okay, 500 what?
46:39Do we need 500 full-time staff
46:41or 500 people total?
46:44Then the awakening happens.
46:46In the awakening,
46:47man, I thought I was witnessing it firsthand that day
46:50whenever the awakening happened.
46:52We can dive into that one day.
46:55What started as a class of 100 people
46:57at 9 a.m. in the morning,
46:58by the end of the day,
46:59there was 2,000 people in the building
47:02that were people from the community,
47:05not even just the IHOP community,
47:06but from Grandview, Kansas City area.
47:10Those buzzwords were always in the back of our head.
47:14You always had this fear
47:15that you were going to miss out on it,
47:17that you were going to miss out on something,
47:18that you were going to.
47:20That's what kept you there as well
47:22is that you didn't want to miss out on those promises
47:25of the coming revival of the 500 to 5,000
47:28and of the coming reign of the day
47:33whenever God mysteriously gave us the power
47:37that no disease known to man would stand.
47:39Those were the things
47:40that stayed in front of us all the time
47:43that we saw as godly aspirations.
47:46I think it distracted us from the crazy.
47:50Yeah.
47:51I've come to the conclusion,
47:52examining some of these revivals
47:54and how they break out,
47:56they've almost made an art of this.
48:00They will build up the hype
48:01to the extent it will get people from the outside,
48:04just like you said,
48:05to come in and see what's happening
48:06because they're curious.
48:08To the people who are on the inside,
48:09when they see this massive growth all of a sudden,
48:12it gives it some sort of a significance in your mind.
48:16It makes it feel legitimate
48:18because you've seen the growth.
48:20The funny part about it is
48:22half the people there,
48:23they're just curious,
48:25what is this weird thing that's happening here?
48:27Then they kind of leave
48:29and it turns into something else.
48:31I recently published some information
48:34on the Azusa Street revival,
48:36the big one that started Pentecostalism.
48:39They were talking about how
48:41there were more people who were skeptical
48:45in the revival than there were
48:47an actual group of people
48:49who were legitimately believing in the thing
48:52to the extent that William Seymour,
48:55as they're holding this revival,
48:57he's pronouncing anathemas
48:59on the heads of the people who were there
49:01joining into it.
49:03That's not the picture.
49:04That sounds familiar.
49:06Isn't Greg Locke doing that nowadays?
49:08Casting out witches from his church?
49:11When you're told these stories,
49:14in your mind,
49:15it gives a completely different perspective.
49:17Whenever you're thinking about this,
49:19they talk like it's this big holy thing
49:21and it was attracting all these people to God.
49:23They don't tell you that they were placing anathemas
49:26on the heads of the people
49:27who were being attracted to it.
49:30So I have it in my mind.
49:33I'm trying to form,
49:34in fact, this may be the subject
49:36of one of my future books,
49:37but the mechanics of how to create a revival
49:42because in many cases like we've examined,
49:44it's not really a move by God,
49:46but there is a series of things
49:48that these ministers have learned
49:50that they can do to create a revival.
49:53If it's created by man,
49:54is it really a movement by God?
49:56Did you see with Branham,
49:58because I know the tent meetings
49:59and all that kind of stuff,
50:00the revival meetings were big with him.
50:03During the awakening,
50:04one of the things that would keep things going
50:06was the sharing of testimonies.
50:08Did that kind of stuff happen
50:10with the Branham stuff?
50:11They would hand the microphone to anybody
50:13to talk about what God had done to them,
50:15and they would coach them
50:16and kind of lead them.
50:18It was very peculiar.
50:20That was straight out of the playbook
50:21of John Alexander Dowie.
50:23Dowie was the prototype for all of this
50:26in the United States.
50:27He was the big man.
50:29In the Marvel universe,
50:31he would be the kingpin, right?
50:34Dowie would enter into a city,
50:36and he would have a satchel
50:38that he would open up
50:39with printed testimonies.
50:42He would tell people that,
50:43you too can be healed,
50:44and here's a testimony of somebody
50:46just like you who was healed.
50:48Nobody in the city ever got healed,
50:50according to some of the newspaper reports.
50:53Then he would leave and go to the next city
50:55where he would have testimonies
50:57from the city he had just left
50:59where nobody got healed.
51:01But in the new city,
51:02he's claiming that they were,
51:03and they have testimonies.
51:04Here's some testimonies.
51:06It changed from written testimony
51:08to now if you look through
51:10The Voice of Healing,
51:11there's some really, really odd things
51:14in The Voice of Healing magazine
51:16that Latter Rain used.
51:17One of them I was reading,
51:18this lady said,
51:19and Brother Branham came and prayed for me,
51:22and praise God I am healed to this day.
51:25I was so surprised because I did not even know
51:28that I had cancer
51:29whenever I went into that line,
51:31which means that he declared
51:33that she had cancer,
51:34and he healed her of the cancer.
51:38This is not going to fly in today's world,
51:40but back then people ...
51:41Like your candy dealer being dentist.
51:43People back then could be so duped, right?
51:46And then it's carried forward.
51:48They're still doing testimony things today.
51:50In fact, we've published so much critical information
51:53about not just Branhamism,
51:55but all of these cults,
51:57all of them,
51:58that whenever the cult defends it,
52:00they can't defend the critical information.
52:02So what they do is
52:03they launch testimony campaigns.
52:06Instead of,
52:07here's the evidence that proves you wrong,
52:09it's, no, we have this person
52:11who either is healed or got saved,
52:14or whatever it is.
52:15It's a testimony.
52:16It's been interesting.
52:17A couple thoughts there,
52:18but the most recent kind of thing
52:21since everything broke with IHOPKC,
52:23their social media has been full of
52:27spontaneous choruses
52:29that are saying in the prayer room.
52:31And so it gives this illusion of
52:34this is where our people are,
52:36because this was something we did
52:37in a corporate environment.
52:38It didn't come from a leader.
52:40It was just a spontaneous chorus.
52:42And some of it's been
52:43some of the most tone-deaf stuff,
52:45but I think it's that same kind of thing
52:47of trying to distract from what was going on.
52:50But as you were talking about
52:51Dowie collecting the testimonies,
52:53the one thing I would love to get my hands on,
52:55I've heard other people talk about this too,
52:56is during the awakening,
52:58they kept binders full of all the testimonies.
53:01So they actually took the,
53:03they would have people fill out papers
53:04before they would share on the platform and stuff,
53:06and they stored them in these binders.
53:09But I had somebody ask me actually yesterday
53:12what I thought about the miraculous now,
53:14and if I still believe that miracles happened
53:17or if I had seen any miracles and stuff.
53:20And I told them,
53:21during that time of the awakening,
53:22like I saw a lot of people
53:23who were quote-unquote healed,
53:26but I honestly don't know
53:28if any of them were legitimate.
53:30The most dramatic one that I saw
53:32was one of my friends who now,
53:33whenever he looks back on it,
53:34he has a very different recollection of things
53:36and how things played out.
53:38He was dealing with an illness
53:39that lasted months,
53:40and it was an illness
53:42that has flare-ups and episodes,
53:44and it's normal after a couple months
53:47to start feeling better,
53:48and then maybe later down the road
53:49have another flare-up.
53:51And so I'm not sure
53:53if I ever saw a real healing
53:56at the awakening or at IHOP.
53:59But the explosion that happened
54:02is very interesting
54:03because I suspect there's a couple things
54:07that happened in the 2000s
54:09that caused IHOP to take off.
54:12One of the biggest ones
54:13was their connection with God TV.
54:16So whenever God TV came onto the scene,
54:21God TV wanted them
54:24to do their nighttime programming.
54:26So God TV would play the prayer room
54:28from midnight to 6 a.m., the night watch,
54:32and then they'd produce
54:33some kind of daily devotional kind of thing
54:36that Mike would do,
54:37and usually it would have a brief portion
54:39of Misty Edwards' set
54:41or something like that
54:42that they would do in the mornings on God TV.
54:44And so that did a lot
54:46to popularize IHOPKC.
54:50So by the time that I decided
54:51that I was going to go to IHOP,
54:53my mamaw, who was a frequent watcher of God TV,
54:56was very familiar with Mike Bickle
54:57and Misty Edwards and all these people.
54:59But what I found out
55:00is that my mamaw didn't know
55:01about Mike's eschatology.
55:02She thought that was kind of weird
55:04when she started hearing that.
55:05So they would use very mass appeal friendly messages,
55:09I guess, on those things.
55:11And then the other piece
55:13was the influx of internationals
55:17to the mission space there.
55:19So at some point,
55:20they worked it out
55:21to where internationals could come on visas
55:23as students and as staff there.
55:26And that brought in tons of people.
55:29I would hate to speculate
55:32what the percentage of internationals
55:34to U.S. citizens were
55:37that were in Kansas City,
55:38but it was significant.
55:40I wouldn't say they were a majority by any means,
55:43but it was definitely a significant presence.
55:45But then you had IHOPU was taking off.
55:47They had their internships
55:48and their conferences.
55:50I mean, they had so many recruiting arms
55:54to help refill the ranks.
55:57It really took something like the Deaton mess
56:00to stop it in its tracks.
56:02The Deaton mess,
56:03that's another thing
56:04that we'll have to explore in the future.
56:06Absolutely.
56:07So many elements to this, man.
56:08It's so crazy.
56:10And from me,
56:11I'm still,
56:13even though I'm researching and digging into it,
56:15I'm still kind of an outside person
56:16looking in inside this weird box.
56:19It's weird because I open up the box
56:21and I see things that are familiar,
56:22even though this is an unusual and weird box.
56:25So it's all the more interesting for me.
56:28But we've got a great start.
56:30We've got,
56:31I don't know how many,
56:32I mean,
56:33there's countless episodes that we could do
56:35that we could really go anywhere from here.
56:37But I'll repeat the call out
56:38that I had earlier in the show.
56:40If you are a researcher
56:42and you're wanting to dig
56:43and help us piece things together,
56:45you can contact us on the web
56:46at william-branham.org
56:48and I'll share them
56:50and we'll categorize them and organize them.
56:53I know that there's some other groups
56:54who are doing this already with IHOP
56:56and we're working with some of those groups.
56:58So hopefully we'll piece together
57:00some of this history
57:01and if there are people who want to dig
57:03and find pieces that we're unable to
57:06just because of the location,
57:08that would be helpful.
57:10So I'm excited to get into this
57:12and there's so much more that we can talk about.
57:15Yeah.
57:16It's going to be fun.
57:17It's going to be fun.
57:18Well, if you've enjoyed our show
57:19and you want more information,
57:20you can check us out on the web.
57:22You can find us at william-branham.org.
57:25For more information about
57:26The Dark Side of the NAR,
57:27you can read
57:28Weaponize Religion,
57:29From Christian Identity to the NAR.
57:32Available on Amazon, Kindle,
57:34and soon, Audible.
57:50The Dark Side of the NAR
57:54Available on Amazon, Kindle,
57:56and soon, Audible.
58:19The Dark Side of the NAR
58:24Available on Amazon, Kindle,
58:26and soon, Audible.