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Love Cheats Episode 1 - The Lord of the Lies

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Fun
Transcript
00:00I think everyone that's dating is looking for love.
00:19It's like the fairy tale that us young girls dream of.
00:28He had a nice house, jewellery, the Bentley.
00:41It's not every day you come into contact with an eccentric lord.
00:46But it was all smoke and mirrors.
00:55We were groomed as a family.
01:01Was I just another business transaction to him?
01:10Every single time we talked, he would have a story which was more bizarre than the last.
01:22The whole situation had gone from a fairy tale to a horror.
01:43I think I'm very lucky to live on the Isle of Wight.
01:48It's a beautiful place.
01:53It's a very small town, everybody knows everybody, but it's a lovely place to live.
01:59I don't think I've ever really had a type.
02:02Someone that can make me laugh, a nice smile, nice eyes, I'm happy with that.
02:10Me and Megan are really close.
02:11She's my middle child.
02:15She was my first little girl.
02:18Speak to her all the time, share all her trials and tribulations.
02:24She's fantastic.
02:31Back in 2017, I was approached and asked if I wanted to open up a bar.
02:38I'd been in managing roles in restaurants before, but this was a new opportunity.
02:44So we took over a run-down older bar and turned it into a very trendy cocktail bar,
02:50and it was doing really well.
02:55I always had a very close-knit group of girlfriends.
03:00At the time, I was the only one that had my own place, so they all lived with me at some
03:06point.
03:07They were there every weekend, they were there all the time.
03:11We were so young and carefree.
03:12We were doing something every night.
03:14Dinner, drinks.
03:15I was still at the end of the bar doing shots while she was working.
03:24We were living life.
03:25Living life as a pair of young 20-year-olds, really.
03:30I cannot tell you how amazing Megan is.
03:34She's like a friend, a sister, a therapist.
03:38She's like everything just wrapped into one person.
03:42She's unbelievable.
03:44I'd been single for about two years at this point, but I was very much enjoying the dating
03:47scene, going out on lots of dinner dates and meeting lots of new people.
03:58Megan was a serial dater.
04:03I was fully for supporting her.
04:12It would be easy to say you weren't looking for love, but then obviously everybody wants
04:17that.
04:21I was working in the bar.
04:22It was the middle of the week, it was very quiet.
04:28I remember clocking him as he came in.
04:30He's quite tall, very well-dressed.
04:33Not the kind of person you'd see around Shanklin on a day-to-day basis.
04:38The day that he came in, we were talking quite a lot.
04:40Obviously, it was a new person, new face around the town.
04:43He introduced himself as Bertie Underwood.
04:48He was very well-to-do, very, very well-spoken, very polite, very well-mannered.
04:55He was an interesting character to get to know.
05:00He just moved to the island from the mainland.
05:04He was a horologist, which I didn't know at the time, but that's like working with watches.
05:11He'd just bought this house with a sea view.
05:18He did stick out like a sore thumb on the Isle of Wight, absolutely.
05:22Obviously, within a few months or weeks, knew who he was.
05:30I first heard about Bertie when a massive bunch of flowers randomly arrived at the bar.
05:41There was a note saying, it was lovely to meet you.
05:44Be ready for 7pm tonight, I'm taking you on a date.
05:47It definitely did feel like, you know, what they do in the movies.
05:55Megan was just bouncing off the walls.
05:57It's so unheard of nowadays, people just send you a text and they want to go for a date.
06:05The girls came over to my flat to help me get ready.
06:11And then he picked me up from outside the bar at about 7pm.
06:19From the start, there was like a big initial attraction.
06:25We went to the Royal in Vedna, the nicest place you could go for dinner.
06:32I was only 20 at the time, never quite had that treatment before.
06:38It definitely was a lot nicer than a lot of other first dates.
06:47There was something there between us, but I wasn't going to make the first move.
06:56After dinner, he invited me back to his place for a cup of tea.
07:02And it was just a cup of tea.
07:08It was an absolutely beautiful three-storey house.
07:13There was beautiful paintings on the wall.
07:16Lots of stories about how he bought it at auction, was really run down.
07:21And he had lots of stories about where everything had come from
07:26and the whole timeline on how he'd renovated the place.
07:30He did tell me that he's actually a lord, passed down from his grandad.
07:36Never met a lord before, so I had absolutely no idea.
07:40He had this antique poster of an Underwood typewriter framed on the wall.
07:45His great-great-grandfather had invented the Underwood typewriter
07:49and that's where his name and his money had come from.
07:55He dropped me back home to my flat after the tea.
08:00We did share a little kiss in the car on the way back.
08:06There were lots of butterflies, it was very exciting.
08:10The whole experience was wonderful.
08:13It was one of the best first dates that I've ever had.
08:16I was like a giddy child.
08:21She was really excited, like, this man's so nice,
08:25like, he's really well-spoken,
08:27he treats me like someone that she'd want to take home to her family.
08:31She was so ecstatic about it, like, buzzing.
08:38The early days with Bertie,
08:41I think it was the first time that I'd met Bertie.
08:46The early days with Bertie were amazing.
08:52We were going away all of the time in London.
08:59He was like no other relationship I've been in.
09:06Bertie used to go off the island quite often for work.
09:16He did always used to bring gifts back, which was very nice.
09:21Perfume, clothes, shoes,
09:25lots of Harrods gift bags over the time.
09:28Even when it was sad that he'd have to go away for work,
09:32he would always make up for it with coming back with gifts.
09:38He bought me a car.
09:40Honestly, never thought that I would have a car.
09:44Never thought that I would have a car like that.
09:47It was the dream.
09:49Driving around in nice cars, wearing the beautiful jewellery.
09:54It's like, baby, you've got it all.
10:04My family loved him.
10:06Everything did move very fast.
10:09He offered for me to move in with him.
10:13Which at the time was a huge deal for me
10:16because I've never lived with a partner before.
10:20This is definitely the nicest house I've ever lived in.
10:25We did get pictures of us printed off together
10:29to put in frames around the house
10:32just to make it feel a bit more ours and a bit more homely,
10:36which was sweet. That was actually his idea.
10:40Over dinner one day, he did say, I love you.
10:51I felt on top of the world.
10:56I think I obviously knew long before he'd actually told me
11:00that I did love him.
11:02But, yeah, it all just happened quite naturally.
11:10It really did feel like a dream come true.
11:21In 2016, I was living in Hastings.
11:28I'm always happy. I was going out, enjoying life.
11:31And I was at work at the supermarket.
11:34This guy comes over to me and said to me,
11:37My name's Robert and how are you, Mike?
11:42He had a posh spoken voice.
11:46He was smart, casually dressed.
11:50I said, who are you type of thing?
11:52And then he said, well, we've been chatting on Grindr.
11:56Been passing photos and getting friendly and all that sort of thing.
12:02And we became friends.
12:05I hadn't got a clue he's a fraudster.
12:17Me and Bertie went out a couple of times, went to a pub once.
12:20And then on another occasion, we went to Brighton.
12:25We were looking at art galleries
12:27and he was spending money on quite expensive stuff, lots of money.
12:33It was like living the high life.
12:38He told me he was a lord because of the way he dressed,
12:41his mannerism, the little bits of eccentricity and all that.
12:48It's not every day you come into contact with an eccentric lord.
12:56We knew each other's ins and outs as such as friends.
13:00When I'd been to his flat, he'd cook me dinner
13:02and we'd gone out socially and all that.
13:05And one particular occasion, we were having a few drinks
13:08and just having a laugh and a joke.
13:10He said to me, I've got a friend who was coming with me on holiday
13:15to Venice who can't come.
13:19He said, but the ticket's all bought and paid for.
13:22So he said, this is a bit presumptuous of me,
13:26he said, would you like to come?
13:31I said, well, I've never been to Venice before.
13:35He said, all I have to do is change the documentation into your name,
13:39which he did there and then in front of me.
13:43He said, but I need a copy of your passport.
13:49So he took a screenshot of my passport
13:53and he uploaded it and he sent it off.
14:00I didn't think much of it.
14:09On another visit, he said to me, oh, I've got a problem.
14:12My eBay account has just been frozen.
14:15He said, would you consider selling something on my behalf?
14:18He said he needed to sell a Rolex watch.
14:21So I agreed.
14:23He sold this watch through my eBay account.
14:27Everything was hunky-dory.
14:31About a month afterwards
14:33is when I got my first message from a gentleman.
14:45Oh, shit, hit the fan.
15:00I was getting messages left, right and centre from different people
15:05saying I was taking their money.
15:09But we're not talking hundreds, we're talking thousands.
15:13They were all sending me pictures of the same Rolex watch
15:16that they'd actually bought.
15:23When I realised, I contacted eBay and said what was happening.
15:31The start of the scam was he needed a document to prove who I was.
15:42He used my screenshot of my passport
15:47to then send to everyone to prove that I was a genuine person.
15:55I confronted him.
15:58I said, look, what are you going to do about it?
16:00He said, leave it with me, I'll sort it.
16:02I never saw him after that.
16:05That was the last time I actually set eyes on him.
16:28This was the most fast-paced relationship I'd ever been in.
16:32Our first Christmas together,
16:34we were just sat on the sofa having a drink.
16:40He turned around and said he had one more present left for me
16:44and pulled out this very nice red Cartier bag,
16:49got down on one knee and asked me to marry him.
16:58I was absolutely blown away.
17:00Like, the ring was stunning.
17:05It was impressive, I'm not going to lie.
17:08All of a sudden, they're engaged.
17:12I was shocked. It hadn't been long.
17:15I did say to Megan, like, are you sure this is what you want?
17:19It's a bit soon.
17:21She was so in the moment, happy, excited,
17:24like, this is what I want for myself, this is my life now.
17:27Almost like the fairy tale relationship that us young girls dream of.
17:31It hadn't been long that they'd been in a relationship together,
17:36but they both seemed really happy, so I was happy.
17:40Bertie was very much part of the family.
17:47We did get planning straight away.
17:50It was most definitely a no expense bed wedding.
17:56I think to myself, is this what it's like marrying a lord?
18:01Bertie used to say often, you know,
18:04that I would gain a title for marrying him.
18:08It was quite a surreal experience.
18:14I wanted to show off our relationship.
18:18I wanted to show off our relationship and what we were doing
18:21and all these amazing places we were going and my handsome boyfriend.
18:24Like, why would I not want to show him off?
18:26But Bertie did not allow me to post any photos of him on social media.
18:35And I said, well, why am I not allowed to post it on social media?
18:40He...completely lost his head.
18:48Which was quite a shock to me.
18:53I couldn't understand why it was so serious and important to him.
18:57You know, like, the odd story on Instagram, out for lunch.
19:01Why would that be the end of the world?
19:09As Megan's and Bertie's relationship started to develop,
19:13it was so noticeable how less and less in communication me and Megan were.
19:23Our friendship definitely changed at this point.
19:33I started to think that perhaps Bertie was trying to get Megan
19:37to drift away from her friends and almost mould her into someone
19:40that she wasn't, almost to start manipulating her.
19:45An issue that started occurring lots within our relationship was the bar.
19:51After I'd moved in with him,
19:53he just wasn't very happy about me being there so late.
19:59He didn't like that people knew me and men wanted to talk to me.
20:04So that was always a bit of a sore subject.
20:10The bar was like my baby.
20:13I was very proud of the bar and leaving was really sad.
20:21But I did and went to work for him.
20:26That did ring alarm bells.
20:28It made me feel quite uncomfortable
20:30because she would then be completely dependent on Bertie,
20:34financially as well as everything else.
20:40I used to take photos of the watches and I used to upload them.
20:44I used to send emails and make all the social media content.
20:49He had a little workshop set up coming off of the lounge.
20:56He used to sit there of an evening with his little head torch on, fixing watches.
21:03I used to sit there and watch him with a glass of red wine
21:06and think, gosh, you're so clever.
21:11One day Bertie decided to get a puppy
21:14for when he's working away and I get a bit of company.
21:17We named our chihuahua Schubert, which was Bertie's choice of name.
21:26That's good, isn't it?
21:32He was very, very cute.
21:34A little bit naughty.
21:36I'd spent the whole of his life sat on my chest, curled up,
21:40but he was, yeah, like the most perfect little puppy.
21:46We were like this little family. It was amazing.
21:54Bertie had a friend called Alex, who I believed to be an artist at the time.
21:59He was living abroad. They would speak on the phone on quite a regular basis.
22:07CLOCK TICKS
22:14I'm from Brighton originally.
22:17Primarily I make installation work,
22:20anything from illustration to film-making, some writing,
22:26but the thing which kind of characterises all of it
22:30is that it always involves a story.
22:33And Bertie had absolutely set the scene for a brilliant story.
22:42In the winter of 2016, I was living in Korea.
22:49I was isolated quite a lot of the time.
22:54I mean, I had a lot of great friends and everything,
22:57but the thing is I worked for myself.
23:00I had my own public art studio, which was on the top of a mountain.
23:04It was a little bit out of the way.
23:06I wanted to get back to the UK and do something about British culture.
23:10I had this crazy idea.
23:13I went on Craigslist back when it still used to allow personal ads,
23:18and I basically just wrote a personal ad
23:21with pretty much a shopping list of all of the things
23:25that I would want in someone that I was going to date.
23:29I just kind of shot it out into the ether,
23:33not really expecting anything to come back, if I'm honest.
23:41About a month later, I had this email
23:44which was answering the Craigslist ad.
23:51It was clear that they had a way with words.
23:55It was clear that they were able to endear you to them.
24:01And that's how I first met Bertie.
24:11When Bertie did kind of come into my life and did phone me a lot,
24:16you know, we would chat about kind of anything and everything,
24:21and every single time we talked, he would have a story
24:25which was more bizarre than the last.
24:30I think I said that he looked younger than 29.
24:35He launched almost directly into this story
24:38about how actually the reason why he looked younger
24:41was because he had had his face surgically reconstructed.
24:45He said it was because his ex-boyfriend
24:48had locked him in their apartment and tried to kill him, basically.
24:57It was the mad stories about the ex, who is on the run from the police.
25:02His mum beat this woman so thoroughly in the face
25:08that one of the rubies in her ring got dislodged
25:12and lodged into the woman's face,
25:14and his mum knocked two of this woman's teeth out.
25:19His stories were very entertaining, but they were also very dark.
25:26There were a lot of discussions about what we would want in a relationship.
25:37But it became clear that that was not something that I would want.
25:45I arrived back, jet-lagged.
25:48Then he kind of steps up contact a little bit,
25:51and he's asking, OK, well, let's go out and have a pint.
25:57We were walking up the hill, and there's this Bentley.
26:03He says, OK, well, let's go out and have a pint.
26:08We were walking up the hill, and there's this Bentley.
26:14He said, yep, this is my car.
26:16So then I was like, OK, wow.
26:21And then he turned to me and he said, I'm an Earl.
26:27Then we went to the next bar,
26:29and that's when he started talking about his bodyguard and his driver.
26:35We've got the Bentley, we've got the posh clothes, we've got the accent,
26:40and now we've got a driver and a bodyguard.
26:43So at this point, you know, all the things are stacking up.
26:50He began hinting quite early
26:53that he wanted to commission an artwork from me.
26:57He told me that he had met a girl on the Isle of Wight
27:02and that she was a bit of a diamond in the rough kind of thing.
27:09He was buying a mansion on the Isle of Wight for them to move into
27:15that he would need artwork for.
27:18Bertie had introduced me over the phone to Alex.
27:22Alex had an invite to the wedding,
27:24so we did speak to him on a regular basis.
27:29He never told me that they were engaged.
27:36None of that.
27:43Bertie decided that he wanted to get married
27:46and have everything at Osborne House.
27:49You know, we went there for a few meetings,
27:51we had everything set in stone, we had the date.
27:54Wedding planning was in full swing.
27:59Beautiful.
28:01It was quite emotional to see Megan in a wedding dress.
28:06You bring your daughter up from a baby
28:10and all of a sudden they're a grown woman in a wedding shop.
28:15One of the most powerful things that Bertie did to convince you
28:18was he would answer the phone in front of you,
28:22talking to someone else,
28:24who would corroborate the stories that he was giving you.
28:29He used to answer the phone to his dad all the time.
28:34And I could hear the conversations between him and his dad.
28:38I could hear the conversation between him and his dad.
28:41And I could hear the conversations between him and his dad.
28:44And they were talking about him being an earl and his duties as an earl.
28:48Those were the things which really made his story believable
28:52because he can tell me whatever he wants, that's fine.
28:55But to get other people involved in telling me the same thing,
29:00that's much more difficult to do.
29:04My friendship with Bertie started to take a sinister turn.
29:12He wanted me to doctor bank statements,
29:16passports.
29:18I told him no.
29:20So he became more and more distant
29:22until eventually he just disappeared.
29:25I still wanted to know who he was and what he was.
29:29He used to pretend that he knew people that I knew.
29:42And one day it just clicked.
29:45I could get in contact with this person that he said that he knew.
29:51Just to see if he did or not.
29:55So I phoned up this person
29:58and I said to him,
30:00look, this is going to sound really weird,
30:03but I met this guy,
30:05and I said to him,
30:07look, this is going to sound really weird,
30:10but I met this guy
30:13in Brighton
30:15and he told me that he was an earl.
30:19And then the phone went really quiet.
30:26And this guy, this police officer,
30:29he said, Alex,
30:33this guy, he's really dangerous.
30:38And you need to get as far away from him as you can.
30:58I hadn't been living with Bertie very long
31:02before I realised that we were getting ahead of ourselves
31:06and realised that we were getting a hell of a lot of posts
31:09for someone that didn't live there.
31:14There was a post every day for this person.
31:19I mentioned it lots of times to Bertie.
31:25I didn't get any answers from him.
31:28So, being curious,
31:31I did decide to...
31:36maybe do some digging, I don't know.
31:40I felt like I needed to try and get an understanding
31:44of what was happening,
31:46so I went into his office.
31:55And I started going through the drawers.
32:00I don't really know what I was expecting to find.
32:04I did, however, find a wallet
32:07with numerous different bank cards
32:10in multiple different names.
32:15None of which in this wallet were Bertie Underwood.
32:22I did ask Bertie about these cards.
32:28His attitude changed instantly.
32:34He shut it down quite quickly,
32:36got very defensive and irate.
32:40My heart was racing, my palms were sweaty.
32:43It's definitely when I started questioning everything.
32:48I spoke to her on the phone, I was like,
32:50just get out of there, come here,
32:52let's regroup, let's get you sorted,
32:54and we'll talk about it.
32:58Something wasn't right, so we done what anyone would do
33:02and started Googling the names from the bank cards
33:05and the letters that were arriving to the house
33:08from the old tenants.
33:13Honestly, I was shocked.
33:16His mugshot came up everywhere.
33:19He was on multiple news articles.
33:24Wanted pages for jewellers,
33:26warning you against this con man.
33:30He'd conned Bentley dealers.
33:36He conned Harrods for half a million pounds.
33:38Just absolutely insane.
33:41If he's capable of doing that,
33:43what could he have possibly done to me?
33:47I instantly felt sick.
33:53This guy from a council estate in Hastings,
33:56he's been pretending to be a member of nobility
34:02by putting on an accent and wearing certain clothes
34:06and robbing a bank.
34:10My stomach just dropped.
34:14This was the man that my daughter was going to marry.
34:20He duped all of us.
34:22We were groomed as a family.
34:25Then the letters started to arrive.
34:32Credit cards and loans in Meghan's name
34:34that she knew absolutely nothing about.
34:38And they just kept coming and coming and coming.
34:44Between different credit cards, a car, phone bills,
34:48business accounts, business credit cards,
34:51he'd taken out all of these things in my name
34:53without me knowing.
34:59Around £30,000.
35:22We went to the police and went to action fraud.
35:28Unfortunately, there wasn't really a great deal that they could do.
35:32Lots of things like the car and the phone
35:36and some other bits and bobs were seen as domestic issues
35:40rather than fraudulent issues because we were in a relationship.
35:46So I just had to bite the bullet and start paying off the debt.
35:52He told me that he'd left the island,
35:56but he came over to talk to me.
36:00He told me that he did love me and that it was different
36:03and that he didn't mean to take anything this far.
36:14He told me that he'd left the island
36:16but he came over to talk to me.
36:22That was the last time I saw him in person.
36:34I did say to Mum,
36:36whatever he has done, we have the engagement ring.
36:42We'll be fine, like, we'll sell the ring.
36:45We'll clear it. That should cover it.
36:47We'll do this. We'll get it valued.
36:49We'll find the best way of selling it
36:51and we'll start clearing these debts.
36:56We took them to a jewellers in Ryde,
37:00tested them...
37:03..and they were all fake.
37:11Shocked, like, really shocked, actually,
37:14but also not surprised.
37:18That left her with absolutely nothing.
37:24I realised, OK, I really might be in the shit now
37:27and I could be in some big trouble.
37:34Not only had put all of my trust and my whole life
37:38into this man that I loved and thought I was going to marry,
37:43why am I getting emotional?
37:59I think maybe just going over it all again.
38:04Like, it was a pretty crazy experience.
38:07Like, it was a pretty crazy experience.
38:14I had to speak to Megan.
38:16We need to do something about this.
38:18Let's tell the story and...
38:22..let's get his face out there.
38:24Basically, if I could make his life uncomfortable for one second,
38:30it was all going to be worth it.
38:37And that's what we did.
38:42We sat down, we wrote the post.
38:45We read it through together and I posted it
38:49and I posted it in as many places as I possibly could.
38:55And before I knew it, people started sharing it.
39:01It had 500 shares and 1,000 shares, 2,000 shares
39:05and it just escalated.
39:09I had message after message after message.
39:17I came across this post and I just remember it detailing
39:22all of these horrible things that Bertie had done.
39:26And it wasn't just that.
39:27There were all of these comments from other people
39:30who had also had things stolen and damaged
39:34and had their lives really hurt by Bertie.
39:40One of my colleagues, she said,
39:42Mike, I think you need to read this.
39:47Some of these people, he duped into getting their private bank accounts.
39:52He got into having their bank cards.
39:56And that really set me off to think that he'd actually got to people,
40:01some people sexually through Grindr and social sites.
40:09I reached out to some of these people.
40:18And I just went, right, I'm not letting this person
40:21get away with what he's done.
40:25I'm going to get this person put behind bars.
40:32I had multiple men contact me on Facebook
40:38to tell me that they had been sleeping with him.
40:45Not only was he cheating on me,
40:49he was doing it in my bed.
40:54With men.
41:02MUSIC PLAYS
41:14This, like, whole person that was my world,
41:18like, was never a real person.
41:26None of it was real.
41:31And...
41:35..it really broke my heart to see her that upset.
41:45She changed her whole world for this man.
41:48MUSIC FADES
41:59I contacted the police.
42:03We'd built a case between the people that had got involved
42:07and given evidence.
42:12There was enough evidence to take it via a jury.
42:19He was found guilty in his absence.
42:26The judge handed down a sentence of five years.
42:34He'd actually done this before, been convicted of it,
42:37done time in prison for it.
42:39He'd come out, he'd just picked up where he'd left off.
42:43About a year and a half down the line,
42:46I'd moved on with my life.
42:49I had a Facebook message from somebody.
42:57He contacted me to let me know that Bertie had been arrested.
43:02Something that has disturbed me ever since was...
43:07..that Bertie was using my career and my website
43:13to corroborate the stories he was making up
43:17with new people that he was meeting.
43:23I'd never met Bertie.
43:25I'd never met Bertie.
43:27That's the cleverest thing that he was able to do,
43:30to manipulate other people to tell his story
43:32so that he didn't have to.
43:34And when you're hearing it from a third party, it's more convincing.
43:42He must have never had any intentions of marrying me.
43:47I obviously had to contact suppliers and cancel things.
43:54I am very angry.
43:58I, you know, wasted the first two years of my 20s
44:01on absolutely nothing...
44:07..other than a load of debt.
44:16Once Megan found out about all of this debt,
44:19she worked her arse off to clear it.
44:29I had been dabbling in the photography
44:31towards the end of the relationship with Bertie.
44:34I'd borrowed a friend's camera
44:36and I'd just sort of been having some fun with it,
44:39photographing friends' children and things like that.
44:42Um, completely unintentionally,
44:45it just happened to turn into a business...
44:53..which, you know, couldn't have come at a better time.
44:58She's had to rebuild her life.
45:02She's had to work incredibly hard to pay off the debts
45:07that were accumulated.
45:09Very, very proud of Megan, yeah.
45:12I'm very excited for her future as well.
45:19My life has changed so dramatically since I was with him.
45:26And I've been in a new relationship and I have my home,
45:30I have my mortgage, I have my business.
45:33My life is exactly what I wanted when I was with him.
45:38What I wanted when I was with him.
45:58He had walked out of an open prison
46:01where he was serving his sentence.
46:05Currently wanted by the police.
46:09How do you get away with that?
46:12He didn't even do his sentence.
46:16How...? You couldn't write it?
46:34How do you get away with that?
47:04How do you get away with that?