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In this episode, we explore the complexities of gentle parenting, discussing its ideals and the frustrations it often brings to parents. Polly Dunbar shares her personal journey and the moment she stepped away from this approach during a playful outing with her son. We examine the challenges of never saying no and validating every feeling, highlighting how such practices can sometimes blur necessary boundaries. Through candid reflections on real parenting scenarios, I advocate for authenticity in parent-child interactions over scripted methodologies. We also critique the potential pitfalls of overly emotion-centered parenting and underscore the importance of establishing boundaries for a child's security. By sharing my own experiences, I emphasize the need for genuine connection and emotional honesty in nurturing family dynamics. Ultimately, we ponder the balance of supporting children's emotional development while grounding them in the realities of life and personal accountability.

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Transcript
00:00Alrighty, so a little bit more on gentle parenting, which I find quite a fascinating adjunct to
00:07peaceful parenting.
00:09So gentle parenting is no way to bring up children, and I should know.
00:12The mild-mannered parenting style popularized by millennials, which means never saying no
00:17or raising your voice, is facing a backlash from exhausted and confused mothers, worried
00:21they're producing a generation of indulged and self-obsessed brats.
00:25Polly Dunbar, who tried it on her own son, understands why.
00:31This is from December 2023.
00:35So I can pinpoint, she says, the exact moment I was done with gentle parenting.
00:49The soft play session had ended, but my three-year-old son didn't want to leave, and he'd had three
00:54more minutes at least four times.
00:56He was hot, hungry, and tired, and I could see exactly where things were heading.
01:00We'd been there before, and neither of us liked it.
01:04Now again, I understand I have a daughter, but I have a very fierce and strong-willed
01:10daughter, so I'm not going to say that she's any kind of putty or pliable or anything like
01:16that.
01:17Very, very strong-willed.
01:18But if your children, and I'm just going from the outside here, I don't know what her
01:24relationship is like with her son, but if your children really, really, really enjoy
01:30your company, then they'll go wherever you go, and they'll be usually happy to go.
01:35If you say, we have to go, then they know that they're going to have fun in the car.
01:39The problem is if your children don't particularly enjoy your company or don't look forward to
01:46it massively or love spending time with you, then you're going to have a problem in that
01:53your children find things more enjoyable than spending time with you, and therefore, they
02:00will want to stay where things are more fun.
02:02And I mean, my daughter, we had a lot of fun in the car.
02:06A lot of, we would role-play in the car, also we used to do this game where we would pretend
02:12to be shooting aliens coming from the moon.
02:15We had a game where she had to take a bad guy and turn him into a good guy, kind of
02:25my life mission, and we would play word games about that.
02:29So we just had a blast in the car.
02:31And so it wasn't like leaving was terrible, right?
02:38It wasn't like if we go somewhere and it's fun and then I have to go for some reason,
02:45it's not terrible.
02:47And you know, just why do you have to go, right?
02:51The soft play session had ended, but I didn't want to leave.
02:54So why do you have to go?
02:55This is always the big question, why do you have to go?
02:59So anyway, so if you don't have to go, just stay, right?
03:04But last night, I wanted to go to bed and my daughter was showing me various things
03:09that she'd saved on her phone and they were very, very, very funny.
03:15And she, oh gosh, we saw some video about, no, I showed her something and then she showed
03:23me stuff.
03:24I showed her a video about some coast players and how many hours they'd put on video games.
03:31And there was a Baldur's Gate 3 person and she says, 250, and the guy said, 250.
03:36And she jumped up and down with joy that she got it right.
03:39It was just really, I was tired, I wanted to go to bed, but it was just a blast staying
03:44up and chatting about these things.
03:46So I'll be mellow when I'm dead, right?
03:50I'll sleep when I'm dead.
03:52So anyway, she says, I tried the script, the one that the Instagram parenting gurus swear
03:57by.
03:58First, you validate their feelings.
03:59You don't want to leave.
04:01It's so tough.
04:02You're feeling cross.
04:03Then you hold the boundary.
04:04It's time to go.
04:06Then you sprinkle on a little sweetener.
04:08You can choose which program you want to watch when we get home.
04:12So don't do a script, man.
04:14Do not do a script.
04:16A script is so fundamentally inauthentic that the kid just knows they're being played.
04:23The kid just knows when they're being manipulated.
04:26I'm asking nicely.
04:28I've tried asking nicely.
04:30There's a threat sort of in behind that.
04:33So a script, validating their feelings.
04:37What's the point of validating your feelings if the kid knows you're just saying that to
04:40get him to do what you want?
04:43That's not an honest, genuine interaction.
04:47So it's time to go.
04:49How do you hold the boundary?
04:50And then you bribe, right?
04:52So I don't know.
04:54Validating their feelings, that's a girl thing.
04:57That's a girl thing.
04:59Men or boys, I suppose, having the validated feelings, if you understand the feelings,
05:05you don't want to leave, then stay, right?
05:07Then stay.
05:08And of course, have you obtained an agreement on how long you'll stay before you go, right?
05:17So if I had some place I had to be, and my daughter wanted to go, say, to a play center
05:21when she was little, I would say, I'd love to take you to a play center.
05:26The deal is, we can stay there for an hour and a half, and then I have to go.
05:31Now, we can go another time, and we could stay longer, but we have to stay for an hour
05:35and a half.
05:36Is that okay?
05:37Because otherwise, we just can't go, right?
05:39If you want to stay for two hours, I'm going to miss ... If I had to go to the dentist
05:42or something like that, then I would say, well, there's a play center near the dentist,
05:47we can go there, but I have a call, and then we have to drive there.
05:52So we can stay there for an hour and a half, which I'd love to do.
05:55Do you have this agreed to ahead of time?
06:02If you haven't got an agreement ahead of time, it's kind of tough to impose one later, and
06:08three-year-olds can handle that.
06:09Will they know exactly what an hour and a half is?
06:11No, but you sort of tell them, and so on, right?
06:14Then if they want to stay longer, then you can say, well, we did have a deal, right?
06:23We had a deal.
06:24If you're not going to keep your deal, I mean, you could do that.
06:28I mean, I'm not going to pick you up and drag you out, obviously, right?
06:32But if you're not going to keep your deal, we can't make deals, right?
06:39You got to come here because you had agreed to leave after an hour and a half.
06:44It is an hour and a half now.
06:46I do have to get to the dentist, because if I don't go to the dentist, I have to pay for
06:50a missed appointment.
06:51We have to come back, and I can't do deals with you for at least a while, right?
06:57And I would say, maybe you're too young to make the deals, and I wasn't mad at her.
07:03So what will happen is you'll have another 10, or 15, or 20 minutes here, or whatever.
07:06I won't be enjoying it, and I would just stop playing with her, because I want to go.
07:11And so you can have another little bit of time here to play on your own, but that just
07:14means we can't make deals for at least another month, or two, or three.
07:19So trust me, you're going to lose out on a lot more place interest than you're going
07:22to get just now.
07:24So I mean, these are all facts, right?
07:26These are all just facts.
07:28And so I don't know this validating the feelings, it's time to go, and so on, right?
07:32And the bribery, I don't think, right?
07:34Anyway, she says, did it diffuse the situation?
07:36If anything, it inflamed it.
07:38In that moment, it was very clear to me, she says, that I could have the diplomacy skills
07:42of Kofi Annan paired with the relentless cheeriness of a CBeebies presenter, I don't know what
07:47that is.
07:49And she goes, Lucia, sometimes if you want a preschooler to go somewhere they don't want
07:51to go, what you really need to do is stop talking, pick them up, and carry them out.
07:55Right, right.
07:59The big question is, why won't the child reason with you?
08:03And this, blowing through this question of why the child won't reason with you, is really,
08:09really interesting.
08:10It's a fascinating question.
08:12I would very rarely have anything like this with my daughter.
08:18In fact, I can't think of a time where the speech I mentioned before about if you want
08:23to stay at the play center, we can stay, but I'm not going to pick you up and drag you
08:29out, but I'm not going to play with you, and we can't make deals for a while.
08:35We can't make deals for a while, and maybe you're too young, and so on.
08:38And I would say this, like, well, maybe you're just too young to make a deal, you know, snarky,
08:41it's just like, well, you know, maybe, and then it's my fault, right?
08:45It's my fault.
08:46Because I kept my deals whenever humanly possible.
08:49I remember going to, was it the White Mountains or something, going to, oh gosh, Pork Fest,
08:56like, when my daughter was very, very little, she said, we stopped at a motel shortly before
09:03we got there, and there was a pool.
09:04My daughter, of course, as a little kid, loved pools, still does, and she said, can we do
09:10the pool?
09:11And I was really tired, been a long drive, and I said, I promise you, we'll do it in
09:15the morning.
09:16We'll do it in the morning.
09:19And then we had to go in the morning, but I got up an hour early, hour and a half, I
09:22think it was, which I really didn't want to do, and we went to the pool, and we had fun
09:26at the pool.
09:27But, so she knows I will move heaven and earth to keep my deals, and if I move heaven and
09:32earth to keep my deals, then asking her to keep her deals is kind of reasonable, and
09:36so on, right?
09:37So I don't honestly think we had any particular problem that way, so.
09:43All right, among millennials, she says, gentle parenting is ubiquitous, an approach intended
09:48to be more respectful and empathetic than the authoritarian rigid style common in previous
09:52generations, offering choices rather than making demands, avoiding shouting and using
09:56negative words such as don't, no, can't, and bad.
10:00Gentle parents don't resort to punishments such as Supernanny's favorite, the naughty
10:02step, instead delving into the feelings, causing unwanted behavior so children feel understood,
10:06which in turn theoretically makes them better able to regulate their emotions.
10:11So yeah, delve into the feelings, but not with the goal of getting them to change their
10:14behavior.
10:15So if you say to your kid, basically, well, I validated your feelings, now you have to
10:20do what I want you to do, I validated your feelings, now you have to do what I want you
10:24to do, then you're not really curious about the child's feelings, you're just trying to
10:27find levers or say words that cast like a control spell over their emotional apparatus,
10:36right?
10:37It's sort of like if you ask a girl out and the girl doesn't want to go out with you and
10:42you say, well, why not?
10:44It's not because you're genuinely curious, you're just asking why she doesn't want to
10:50go out with you in order to overcome her objections and have her go out with you, right?
10:54If you are trying to make a, you're trying to sell a car to someone, you're a car dealer,
10:58right?
10:59You're trying to sell a car to someone and they say, I don't want to buy this car, you'd
11:03say, oh, why not, right?
11:07Or they walk into the dealerships and you say, are you interested in a car?
11:10And they say, well, yes, and then you say, what kind of car are you looking for?
11:15It's not because you're curious about their feelings, you just want them to buy the car,
11:20so you want to steer them to the right car, and there's nothing wrong with it, but it's
11:22not genuine emotional curiosity, you're just asking people what they like or want so that
11:31you can guide them to better buy from you, right?
11:36So that's kind of important, right?
11:40Is it genuine emotional curiosity, right, like, well, why don't you want to go?
11:44Well, and the reason you avoid this kind of stuff, right, is like, well, you say, well,
11:49why do you want to stay, right?
11:51Whatever it was, the soft play session, I don't even know what that means, didn't want
11:54to leave.
11:55Okay, so the question is, why doesn't your child want to leave?
11:58Well, because they're having so much fun there, and they're not going to have as much fun
12:04with you.
12:06They're not going to have as much fun with you.
12:08So that hurts, right, because then you need to up your game in terms of the child enjoying
12:14your company, right?
12:16I mean, let's say you're married, right, and it's kind of like, the marriage has become
12:22kind of routine and boring, and you don't really talk about that much, and you just
12:25kind of go through the motions and do your chores and stuff, and then you go to some
12:28dinner party, right?
12:30I'm actually somewhat known for throwing some pretty legendary dinner parties over the years,
12:35and so you go to a dinner party, and both you and your wife just kind of light up, right?
12:43You just kind of light up.
12:44It's like Diana Ross when they were doing We Are The World or whatever, like she just
12:47didn't want it to leave, though it was like four or five in the morning.
12:50So you and your wife go out, and you're funny, and your wife is charming, and everybody's
12:57got great conversation, and you don't want to leave, why?
13:01Because then you get back in the car, and you're just kind of staring at each other,
13:06and you realize kind of everything that's been missing, and you just feel a little bit
13:11depressed about being back in the car and going home with your wife, because you were
13:16so much more lit up and having fun at the dinner party.
13:21So that's tough, right?
13:22That's tough.
13:23So why is it that your kid doesn't want to go?
13:27Because they're so much enjoying spending time not with you.
13:36And that's really, really tough.
13:41That's really, really tough.
13:42Yeah, so that's tough emotionally, right?
13:47So that curiosity, why does your kid not want to go with you?
13:58Because they're having so much more fun here.
14:00Ooh, that's tough, man.
14:02And then you have to figure out how you can be more creative and fun and imaginative when
14:07you're playing with your kid or you're chatting with your kid and all of that, right?
14:12That's tough.
14:14That's tough.
14:15All right.
14:16I don't know saying don't, no, can't, and bad.
14:20I don't know about bad.
14:21Bad is not particularly helpful.
14:23But the idea that you should not say no to your children, I find a little bit confusing.
14:27Because it's just inauthentic.
14:30And kids, I tell you, man, it's wild.
14:33Kids are just like x-ray machines of authenticity.
14:36They just know when you're faking it.
14:38They just know when you're faking it.
14:40So if you're like, you're so self-restrained, right?
14:44Well, you're upset with your kid, right?
14:47And if I was upset with my daughter, which would happen very rarely, but it would happen,
14:51I would be annoyed.
14:55I'd say, I'm annoyed, right?
14:56I find this annoying, right?
14:58I'm not saying you're bad or anything.
15:00I'm just saying I'm annoyed, right?
15:02And that's fine.
15:04That's fine.
15:05And then she can say she's annoyed with me, right?
15:08So that's just honest, right?
15:09And it's been usually very, very productive and healthy and helpful, right?
15:16So yeah, I mean, some years ago, my daughter, when I was having a conversation with her,
15:22and I think this is a time when the show was on a real rollercoaster, and she said, you
15:27know, sometimes you can be a bit grouchy.
15:29And I sort of thought about it, and we talked about it, and I was like, yeah, you're right.
15:34You're absolutely right.
15:35You're absolutely right.
15:37And letting too much of the world chaos seep into the family abode.
15:41She was absolutely right about that.
15:43And we actually just talked about this the other day, although, of course, I checked
15:45in with her quite a bit to just let go of some of the grouchiness that would happen
15:49from time to time.
15:50I'm not a particularly grouchy guy, but it would certainly happen from time to time.
15:55And she was right.
16:01So this, you know, well, I have to do this three step, right?
16:05Three step.
16:06The script, right?
16:07Well, you don't want to leave.
16:08It's so tough.
16:09You're feeling cross.
16:10And the kid's like, well, so now that you understand that, I should be able to stay,
16:13as opposed to, like, if I wanted the date to go longer, but the girl wanted to leave,
16:22the woman wanted to leave, and I'd say, well, you want to leave.
16:26That's tough.
16:27You're feeling bored, or you're not connecting, and then say, well, then the date has to continue.
16:32That would be like, well, what's the point of understanding my feelings if you're just
16:34going to do the opposite, right?
16:38I ask a girl out, and she says no, and I'm like, okay, you don't want to go out with
16:43me.
16:44That's tough.
16:45You're feeling not positive towards me, and then just say, so when do we meet?
16:50Like let's go out Friday.
16:51She'd say, well, no, I mean, you correctly identified my feelings that I don't want to
16:55go out with you, so then why are we doing the opposite?
16:57That would be weird, right?
16:59Right?
17:01I mean, if I was in a job interview, and they said, we're not going to hire you, and I'm
17:05like, you don't want to hire me, that's tough.
17:07You're feeling like you don't want me to be your employee, so what time do I show up for
17:11work on Monday?
17:12That would be weird.
17:13So saying, you don't want to leave is so tough, you're feeling cross, and then leaving is
17:16just weird.
17:17It's like, okay, but if you understand my feelings, why can't we stay, right?
17:21So the script is a falsehood, and oh, I can't say don't, no, can't, and bad.
17:26That's just self-censorship, and it's just inauthentic.
17:28You're just not genuinely connecting with your emotions and your child.
17:34Of course, I want more than anything to be kind and patient with my son, as my late adored
17:38mom was with me.
17:41What do you mean, kind and patient?
17:43So that's just, again, it's inauthentic, inauthentic.
17:48It's not kind and patient to be manipulative, and to self-censor, and to follow some sort
17:53of script, and you can't say this, and lack of genuine emotional connection and authenticity
17:59and spontaneity.
18:00Blech.
18:01It's gross.
18:02It's an NPC script.
18:03Sometimes, though, she says, living with a three-nature, that's funny, can leave me feeling
18:07overwhelmed.
18:08Boy, that is like the ultimate, that is the ultimate female word of the 21st century.
18:16Overwhelmed.
18:17Overwhelmed.
18:18I don't know what it means.
18:19I think it just means you've been fake for so long that you don't feel real anymore.
18:25So since his birth, I've discovered shortcomings I had no idea I had, so when I discovered
18:29gentle parenting exponents such as big little feelings, Dr. Becky Kennedy and Janet Lansbury,
18:34a woman who embodies serenity on social media, I read everything, blah, blah, blah.
18:39Big little feelings.
18:40Ugh, it's gross.
18:41I really, really dislike that.
18:44All right.
18:46Much of what I've learned from those particular experts has been useful, particularly the
18:49emphasis on trying to calm yourself down first before intervening with your child
18:53to avoid adding fuel to their fire.
18:55So you don't think your kid can see your struggles?
18:59Kids read their parents like you read a book.
19:02Kids understand their parents like you understand the two and two make four.
19:05So anyway.
19:06It's also no surprise to me in the U.S. most backlash, blah, blah, blah, starting from
19:11making us feel exhausted, confused, and ashamed.
19:14Is it entirely positive for an approach designed to be non-authoritative if there are actually
19:18many rules to gentle parenting?
19:20Most of them for the parents rather than the children.
19:22And failing to follow them correctly apparently means risking your child's future self-esteem.
19:25It happened the same.
19:26Good boy, girl is frowned on in case you make them dependent on external validation.
19:30Boy, talk about a lack of self-knowledge here, right?
19:33So she's like, am I being good at gentle parenting?
19:38That's external validation, right?
19:40She's literally going to all of these people, oh, this woman is the embodiment of serenity,
19:45the Janet Lansbury, and I want to be like her.
19:48I want to be like my mom.
19:49I want to be like these other people.
19:51And then it's like, well, you don't want to be dependent on external validation.
19:54It's like, oh my God.
19:57So you've made me really angry, sad, which might trigger toxic co-dependency.
20:02You've made me really angry, sad.
20:05This is, again, maybe 51, 49, this is a female thing.
20:09Man, this is a female thing.
20:11Which is something external happens and that makes them angrier, sad.
20:17If somebody wires you up to electricity and runs 40,000 volts through your thigh muscle,
20:22then they are making you jerk back and they're making you hurt, right?
20:27But you've made me really angry, sad.
20:29That's not helpful.
20:30I am angry and sad.
20:31It happened after this.
20:32I'm not saying because of this, but so shouting, so it's just not true that other people control
20:39your emotions.
20:41It's just not true.
20:44Shouting will lead to depression, a lack of confidence in later life, and possibly
20:47also make them a psychopath, right?
20:49With stakes this high, losing control and raising your voice once in a while can feel
20:52traumatic.
20:53But I found it's more likely to happen if I've spent all day engaged in tortuous discussions
20:57about feelings, not my own, obviously trying desperately not to say, because I said so,
21:02and ignoring my gut instincts, which is that clear instructions peppered with the occasional
21:05firm no-mind.
21:06Whisper it, be far more successful.
21:08Yeah.
21:09So why are you ignoring your gut instincts?
21:11So you're lying to your child.
21:13You're lying to your child.
21:14You're not being honest and direct and authentic and connecting.
21:18Anyway, is shouting sometimes really so detrimental?
21:21I want my son to know that all humans get upset and angry at times, adults included,
21:24and that his actions impact those around him, right?
21:29But why would you have to shout, right?
21:31You could just say that you're upset.
21:33You don't have to shout.
21:34That's acting it out, right?
21:37So she's rejecting her own authentic experience.
21:42She's rejecting honesty.
21:44She's being tight-lipped, white-faced, red-cheeked, and manipulative, and then she wants her child
21:52to respect her.
21:53It's like, but if she set herself against her own emotional authenticity and directness
21:56and honesty, why would the child respect her?
22:00I don't get, again, this is a little bit more female, I don't get this just adherence to
22:05external rules in order to just do something well.
22:08There's a script I have to follow.
22:09There's this person I need to emulate.
22:11I need to copy-paste this, and it went.
22:14I also doubt that her mother was quite as gentle as she says, otherwise she'd be able
22:17to do this more directly.
22:19Or maybe her mother was gentle also by faking her own experience and compulsively lying
22:23to her child.
22:26When you're searching your frazzled brain for the right gentle parenting form of words
22:39with which to respond, never react.
22:41It's also very easy to get it wrong and lapse into permissive parenting, allowing them to
22:44do whatever the hell they want.
22:46It's a distressingly short journey from validating a child's feelings to letting them cause mayhem
22:49in a supermarket, and from trying not to shout, stop that, when your child throws sand at
22:54another to standing impotently watching it happen.
22:56The experts say boundaries are vital, but when you're focusing all your energies on
22:59not losing your cool, those are what often vanish instead.
23:03So if the only way that you can enforce boundaries is through yelling and physical force, like
23:09picking up your child and carrying them, then you're really torn.
23:13Like you have to give your children some structure and boundaries.
23:16Children are happier when they know what's expected of them.
23:18So if you have to give your children boundaries, but the only way you can think of giving boundaries
23:23is to stop this weird psychobabble of inauthenticity and to yell and use physical force, that's
23:30no fun.
23:31I mean, that's really stressful.
23:34That's really difficult.
23:35How about just be honest, tell the truth.
23:38And while nobody wants their child to grow up believing their feelings don't matter,
23:41I'm also unsure that a toddler's every emotional experience needs to be indulged.
23:44Yeah, I don't know what that means.
23:46I don't always have it in me to muster empathy for the distress caused by an incorrectly
23:49cut piece of cheese.
23:53More seriously, I worry that the constant focus on emotions will raise a self-obsessed
23:57entitled generation who see their feelings more important than anything else as more
24:01important than anything else, including objective truth or different, perhaps equally valid
24:06viewpoints.
24:07The objective truth is you're bothered by your son and you're not telling him that,
24:12and you're also not saying, why does it hurt me that my child wants to stay here rather
24:19than go somewhere else with me, right?
24:22Which it probably does, right?
24:24Objective truth, how's the child going to get objective truth if you're lying to him
24:27by following a script that's inauthentic to how you're feeling and what is actually going
24:31on for you, right?
24:32Recently, I've been trying to listen to my gut more, which tells me to try to emulate
24:36my own mom, who is kind, yes, and gentle, too, but also firm, sometimes even strict.
24:40I know what she'd say if she could see all the gentle parenting social media posts.
24:43The parenting can't be taught via 30-second videos, there's no such thing as a script
24:46that every child will respond to.
24:48I think she'd also greet the idea of someone using a detailed narration of their recalcitrant
24:53toddler's feelings to cajole them into leaving a soft play session with amused incredulity.
24:57Increasingly, I feel the same.
24:59Sometimes you just need to get home, even if it takes a fireman's lift to achieve it,
25:03right?
25:07Yeah, children are just at their happiest when they're relaxed and connected to the
25:14true emotional state of their parents.
25:16When their parents know, when the children know that their parents absolutely love spending
25:21time with them, right?
25:22My daughter wanted to go for a walk today, I know she likes going for a walk and listening
25:25to music, and I was like, I'd love to come along, but I totally understand if you want
25:29to go on a walk and listen to music, and we had a nice hour walk and we talked about just
25:34a lovely variety of topics and all of that.
25:36And so, when kids are just connected and happy and they know that their parents love spending
25:44time with them, and the parents are not faking things or being inauthentic, and so on, then
25:51the kids are happy, right?
25:53I don't know this woman, but she does look like the kind of woman who is looking for
25:58a kind of social approval that is really tough, and wanting to be right and do things
26:05the right way rather than just be authentic, honest, and genuine, maybe that comes a little
26:10bit more from the father's side.
26:11Of course, she doesn't say anything about, Polly Dunbar, what's her story?
26:20She doesn't say anything about whether she has a husband, she doesn't say anything about
26:27the child's father, and maybe that's an issue.
26:32Children's illustrator and writer, okay?
26:35And let's see here, Cotswolds, are you in Cotswolds?
26:42Are you in Cotswolds?
26:43Oh, wow, my, all right, career, adaptations, bibliography, as an illustrator, all right.
26:53What's promising you, illustrator, what's promising you, okay, sorry, okay, what does
27:00she got here?
27:03She's the daughter of a children's book writer, oh, isn't that nice, right?
27:07Oh, most helpful, okay, so let's see here, published three books, oh, her partner, and
27:17their two sons, okay, I don't know if partner means male or female, of course, who knows?
27:24Let's look a little further, Polly Dunbar, all right, what's her story, and two very
27:42fluffy cats, is there anything about, yeah, I don't know, I don't know what partner means
27:46here, but anyway, so, yeah, I don't know if there's a dad, but if there's a strong dad
27:51around, there's usually just this kind of directness that is very positive and helpful,
27:57I think, and again, she could be perfectly wonderful at this, and maybe she's got the
28:00manliest man around, but I don't know, so, yeah, helping women to be more authentic is
28:06a man's job, and helping men be more connected is a woman's job, it's all great stuff, so,
28:12all right, well, thanks, everyone, hope you find this helpful, I'm gonna go and do my
28:14Wednesday night show, it is November the 13th, 2024, and I'll talk to you guys in a few minutes,
28:21bye.