Blades loss and Stoke preview plus transfer suspension and injury latest
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Network.
00:23My name is Jason Jones, I'm joined by James Copley, again, no Phil Smith.
00:28This week we're back down to a two-man squad, but I'm sure we'll battle through, as we always do.
00:33Yet more disappointment for Sunderland over the weekend, a 1-0 defeat to Sheffield United at Bramall Lane on Friday night.
00:41Obviously, it's been quite a while now without a win, James, but a really disappointing result this one.
00:47And also based predominantly on the fact that Sunderland actually gave a really good account of themselves in that match, I think it's fair to say.
00:54Yeah, I think it was really frustrating, obviously, to miss the penalty as well.
00:57Patrick Roberts possibly should have done better.
01:01It was a decent save by the keeper, but yeah, when you've had a penalty, the chance to go 1-0 up, then suddenly you find yourself down to 10 men.
01:10After Chris Metham's red card, you start to fear the worst.
01:14But then, of course, Sheffield United themselves went down to 10 men.
01:18And I thought Sunderland were, for the large part, the better side.
01:21Obviously, Sheffield United did have some moments, but a real lack of finishing, I think, let Sunderland down.
01:28And it's a little bit of a concern in Trenders.
01:30They haven't scored that many goals, really, over the five draws and this loss.
01:35I was encouraged by the performance, though, to be honest.
01:38I thought they dealt well with the adversity.
01:39It's so heartbreaking to lose it at the end of the game.
01:43But we went away from home against the top team in the league, gave a good account of ourselves.
01:49Yes, it's frustrating not to get the result, but there was circumstances around it as well.
01:56I just think that, I think for me, I don't know if you agree, Jace, but this little dip in form that Sunderland have had with the five draws and the Sheffield United loss,
02:07I think there's mitigation around bits and pieces of it.
02:10Obviously, Sunderland should have turned a couple of those draws into wins.
02:14They're set in half against Coventry, unacceptable.
02:16Then conceding so late against Millwall, really, really frustrating.
02:20And I just think that it's a reasonably big game coming up against Stoke City on Saturday at the Stadium of that.
02:28And I just think we're at that sort of crossroads a little bit where this team sort of need to decide what do they want to be?
02:36What are they going to achieve this season?
02:38Are they going to bounce back?
02:40Are they going to start to win games again?
02:41Because I think they do sort of need to win against Stoke.
02:44I think they need to get that feel-good feeling back, that buzz back.
02:48Because let's not forget that last season, Sunderland started reasonably well under Tony Nobre.
02:52And then, obviously, he was sacked after, I think, winning, what was it, 2-10 or something like that.
02:59And then it all quickly, rapidly went downhill, didn't it?
03:01So, are they going to be this young team that have fairly decent starts?
03:05Obviously, this season's start was better than last year as it was a blistering start, really.
03:09But are they going to be this team that sort of falls off and falls away when the games come thick and fast and there's suspensions and injuries?
03:16You could say that maybe the squad isn't completely fully fleshed out yet.
03:19And that's something that needs to be worked on as well.
03:22But I think it's an important couple of weeks coming up.
03:25And we always say on this podcast, we've repeated it, that you do tend to find out a lot over Christmas.
03:30So, I'm interested in that regard to see how they respond, to see how they get at it.
03:35But I genuinely thought there was positives to take from that Sheffield United performance.
03:40Obviously, Paddy Roberts has copped a lot of stick for us.
03:43Penalty missed, perhaps he shouldn't be on them going forward.
03:46Maybe his striker needs to be on it or another player maybe needs to take responsibility.
03:53But, yeah, it is disappointing.
03:55But I think, you know, you need to put it in perspective.
04:00And Sunderland have had a really, really decent start of the season.
04:03And there has been a lot of mitigation in terms of injuries and suspensions and a little bit of bad luck here or there.
04:08I don't feel like it's really panic stations yet.
04:12Contrary to what I've said about Sunderland maybe needing to prove themselves and turn it around.
04:17I haven't been really concerned about the performances and the drop off.
04:21There's been elements in games that have annoyed and frustrated, but I don't think it's, you know, an irretrievable situation.
04:28And I still think, at the very least, Sunderland are a top six team.
04:31And I don't see anything to have changed that in the past six games, to be honest with you.
04:38So, it's an interesting spot that Sunderland find themselves in.
04:42And I think they do need to go out and prove themselves again.
04:45But perspective is important as well.
04:48And a lot of sides will go through dips.
04:50I mean, Middlesbrough started the season really poorly.
04:55Burnley, for instance, had a couple of shaky results, lost to Sunderland.
04:58And Leeds lost against Blackburn Rovers.
05:01They've lost games as well.
05:02And I'm not saying that sort of justify anything Sunderland do.
05:06But in the Championship, you do go through rough patches.
05:10The flip side to that is you could argue that Sunderland have really missed good opportunities to take the lead by the scruff of the neck, really, especially with some of those draws.
05:18So, it's an interesting spot.
05:20I think, you know, first real bit of adversity for Gilles Le Brie.
05:24And yeah, I think coming into the Stoke City game, really, really do with a win to lift things, to be honest.
05:31Yeah, I would sort of echo a lot of what you said there.
05:34I think that if we were sat here after these six games and we were saying that the performances had sort of soundly fallen off a cliff, then you'd be very concerned.
05:43I think that you're absolutely right.
05:45There are certainly there have been extended periods in most games during this run where Sunderland have looked all right.
05:54You know, obviously, first half against Coventry was arguably as good as they played for a long, long time.
06:00I thought they were the better team.
06:01On Friday against Millwall, with a sort of vastly altered team through necessity, really.
06:08You know, I thought they, again, were the better team for large parts of that.
06:13The flip side of that is that you'd look at it and you'd go, you know, against a Preston team who were really struggling this season,
06:18you could make an argument that Sunderland were actually the second best side out there at Deepdale.
06:22Obviously, after the Bellingham sending off against QPR, they sort of struggled as well.
06:27But again, those are performances that I think have to be seen through sort of the prism of circumstance.
06:34If you're like, you know, you're talking about going down to 10 men away from home in the Championship against QPR, that's always going to be difficult.
06:40Deepdale is always a difficult place to go.
06:43Midweek, under the lights, you know, Preston, they're not exactly performing this season, but they're no mugs either.
06:48They are a side who are established in this division.
06:50So, yeah, you know, I think if we were sat here and we were saying that Sunderland don't look anything like the team that we saw over the first, you know, however many weeks this season,
07:00then we'd be saying, OK, this is probably a huge concern.
07:03But it does just feel at the moment that those sort of those fine margins and those really important details that ultimately decide games in the Championship just aren't quite going their way at the moment.
07:15Obviously, two of them that you've sort of mentioned already and I'd like to go into a little bit more detail on is the penalty miss from Patrick Robertson and the red card for Chris Meppin.
07:25We'll start with the penalty miss.
07:26I mean, obviously, a huge disappointment, disappointment rather, when you have the opportunity to take the lead at Bramall Lane and you don't take it, it's always going to be a bit of a blow.
07:36But just sort of interested to get your feelings on Patrick Roberts at the moment, because like you say, it does feel as if he's maybe coming in for a fair amount of stick for some of his recent performances.
07:46But he started the season so well.
07:48I mean, where do you see him at the moment?
07:49Do you think maybe Lucas needs to persevere?
07:52Do you think maybe a spell out the team might sort of benefit him a little bit, a little bit of rotation perhaps?
07:59I think, you know, coming into the season, Sunderland obviously had an idea that Jan Pervede would push Patrick Roberts maybe up his game a little bit.
08:10He could sort of rotate in and out because previously, if he hasn't been injured, you know, he's played a lot of games.
08:17Patrick Roberts, obviously, Abdel Abbar had a spell in the side last season.
08:22I think the penalty seems to have opened this whole Roberts debate again, hasn't it?
08:26And I do get where people are coming from in terms of his output, in terms of the statistics, the eye-catching statistics, goals and assists, which is what people pay for.
08:36It's what people pay to see.
08:37That's what football clubs pay for in the team.
08:39He's got one goal this season, which was, I think, the penalty against Plymouth Argyle.
08:44He's got three assists and last season he didn't score at all and he only managed two assists.
08:48Now, assists can be slightly misleading because you can put in a lot of good balls into the box and they might not be finished off.
08:54You know, your strikers might not be on form.
08:56I always go back to Mundell earlier on in the season at the Stadium Night, I think it was against Oxford, where he sort of put two balls in and they were both absolutely worldly finishes.
09:05And, you know, there's no guarantee that you're going to get the assist.
09:09And, you know, the strikers and the goal scorers have made Mundell look pretty good in that regard for decent balls in, but fairly simple chances.
09:17So I do understand and I do get that the eye-catching statistics aren't there.
09:21So then you go to the eye test and I think Patrick Roberts has done it for Sunderland this season.
09:27I think he does cause problems down that right-hand side.
09:30I actually really like when Rigg drifts over and then you've got Trae Hulme overlap and I think that can be a really, really good strength of Sunderland's, to be honest.
09:41Should he be on penalties going forward?
09:43I suspect probably not.
09:44Obviously, Jack Clarke was the penalty taker, wasn't he?
09:47And then he left.
09:48So I think Roberts probably just got out of seniority for the season, I would imagine.
09:53I mean, you know, this was when Wilson Isidor was a bit of an unknown quantity, so he hadn't got his five goals.
10:00He hadn't sort of cemented himself as Sunderland's senior striker yet.
10:03So, you know, I had it put to me that it was ridiculous that Patrick Roberts was on penalties and it's not really.
10:08He scored his last one.
10:10He's a senior player.
10:10He's played in the Champions League.
10:12He can obviously strike a ball.
10:13He's played for Manchester City, Celtic, Fulham.
10:16He's been around the block.
10:18So I could understand him taking the penalty.
10:20He's missed it.
10:21So it's probably time perhaps to hand it on to a striker or perhaps Job, somebody who wants the responsibility.
10:29I would like to see Patrick Roberts sort of up those numbers in terms of goals and assists because he has got real quality.
10:35But I'm a massive fan of Patrick Roberts.
10:37I think he has suffered.
10:38Maybe he's not from having a little bit of a lack of competition.
10:43But, yeah, I think we seem to have these debates around Patrick Roberts like yearly.
10:48And for me, although Abdel Abar did some decent stuff sort of last season in terms of his output, I always preferred Patrick Roberts.
10:55I don't think Abdel Abar's a better player than Patrick Roberts.
10:58Quite clearly, Nibiru agrees.
11:01So, yeah, I think, I mean, the tough one at the moment is, as I alluded,
11:06who comes in to replace him?
11:07Obviously, you've got Maiender on the right wing, who's looked decent.
11:10You know, could Lebris perhaps bring him on a little bit earlier in games?
11:15Could he maybe start Maiender and then look to bring Roberts on for the last 30 or 40, something like that?
11:20I don't know how he would do that or where his mindset is with that.
11:26But Southern have that option.
11:27Obviously, Tommy Watson can play on the right wing as well, or he's looked better on the left.
11:32So, yeah, I guess going into Stoke, it is a team selection sort of interest, isn't it?
11:41An issue of interest, because will he start Roberts or Maiender?
11:44And it's probably 50-50, but I suspect he'll probably go with Roberts again.
11:48You know, I think he'll stick with him.
11:51Yeah, again, tempted to agree.
11:53I think that it's a point that Phil always makes, isn't it?
11:55That, you know, the amount of moves that Roberts is involved in, where he doesn't necessarily get the assist,
12:03he doesn't necessarily score the goal himself, but he sort of, you know, plays an integral role in the build up to it.
12:10I think that that really can't be understated.
12:13And like you say as well, it's a tricky one at the moment because it's not as if Sunderland have that obvious natural replacement for him.
12:21I do think that in the sort of fleeting moments that we've seen him out there this season,
12:27Elisa Maiender has actually looked like a pretty effective and quite natural right winger.
12:32But again, whether or not Lebris sees fit to sort of put his faith in him from a, you know,
12:39whether it would be from the first whistle or whether it would just be earlier in a contest, I'm again not so sure.
12:44And it's also interesting as well, you know, you talk about that link up between Hume, Rigg, Roberts.
12:49And, you know, we see it very similar on the other side, don't we?
12:52That circling job and then when he's fit, Mundell, but obviously it's been Watson of Lear,
12:57that those triangles seem to be really important to the way that Lebris likes to set up.
13:01And I do think that, again, it's one thing that Roberts really has going for him is that while he himself may not always be,
13:09you know, the man who puts the ball in the back of the net or even the one who puts the ball into the box for it to be put in the back of the net,
13:15he really does have a knack of sort of elevating the players around him.
13:19I mean, obviously the season that Amad Diallo was at the stadium, I think the link up that those two had is probably the best example of that,
13:27the leaps and bounds that Amad's development took playing alongside a player like Patrick Roberts.
13:33And obviously, Amad's a huge talent and he's always going to be that player anyway,
13:35but it really does help having someone with Patrick Roberts' level of sort of technicalities, vision in the side for that as well.
13:43So, you know, we're talking about a young player like Chris Rigg.
13:47While, you know, Roberts himself might not be firing on all cylinders at the moment,
13:52I think that, you know, it's fair to say that he is helping to bring the best out of the players around him.
13:57And when you've got a player like Chris Rigg, who's so young and has so much potential,
13:59that surely has to be a factor that the Brits is taking into account as well.
14:03So it's an interesting one.
14:04I guess I'm tempted to agree with you.
14:06I think that Roberts will keep his place in the team.
14:09I absolutely see why he took the penalty.
14:11I think going forward, he won't be on them.
14:13But you're right, he scored a penalty earlier this season.
14:16So, yeah, it's one of those that I think at the moment feels quite reactionary to me.
14:21And I would like to think that as the weeks go by and hopefully he can sort of work his way back into what people would consider to be his best form,
14:29then it'll be one that passes by pretty quickly.
14:33Obviously, the other thing I wanted to talk about as well was the red card, the Chris Mepham dismissal.
14:39Weird one, isn't it?
14:40Because obviously that's the sort of thing that has the potential to change a game.
14:43But then Sheffield United go and get a man sent off as well.
14:45And everything sort of balances out a little bit and there's more space in the field.
14:48But you wonder how much impact it's actually had on the result.
14:52Obviously, it does also mean that Mepham is not going to be around for the Stoke game.
14:57I mean, did you see it as a red card?
14:59Do you think that it was the right decision?
15:01Because I've heard a couple of conflicting opinions on this one.
15:04Well, so to be honest, in real time, this confused the life out of me because when the Sheffield United player gets the ball and Mepham makes the tackle,
15:14I didn't think it was a clear goal-scoring opportunity or that he was the last man.
15:18I thought Sheffield United's player turned.
15:21So live in real time, I was like, oh, well, the referee sent him off for that.
15:26So it must be a three-game ban because it must be he sent him off for the tackle rather than being the last man, so to speak.
15:33So I thought, is that dangerous and reckless?
15:36And I've seen it back a couple of times, realised that he's actually sent him off for being the last man, preventing a clear goal-scoring opportunity.
15:44But I just think the positioning of the Sheffield United player, you know, I think it's personally a little harsh.
15:49I think a yellow card would have would have sufficed.
15:52I can see why he's given it.
15:53And I think, you know, referees come in for a lot of stick, but they only see it once in the Championship.
15:59He's seen it very quickly.
16:00He might have been the other side of it, I can't quite remember.
16:02So, you know, not one I'll complain about too much, to be honest with you, but I think it was a yellow.
16:10I do know that Sunderland are going to appeal it because the threshold extends, doesn't it, for players on five yellow cards or approaching that.
16:20So that goes on the 19th game, which is the Stoke game, that'll go up to 10.
16:25Now Meppen was on four yellow cards anyway, so in danger of that one game suspension.
16:29So I think they're just going to take the hit against Stoke and then it extends to 10 yellow cards.
16:35So he'll be then six yellow cards away from suspension.
16:38So they're going to take the hit now.
16:40But, yeah, I think it's strange, isn't it?
16:43Because obviously you get the Sheffield United red card not long after that, you know, the double booking and then the foul on Isidor, which sees Harry Souter sent off.
16:52So in that regard, that evened things up, didn't it?
16:54And that was pretty stonewall.
16:56It was two bookable offences for me.
16:57I don't think Sheffield United could have any complaints about it.
17:01So it almost made the red card against Meppen a little bit irrelevant in terms of, you know, Sheffield United having the advantage.
17:09I actually thought Sunderland managed that situation pretty well and it made for, you know, a fairly entertaining game.
17:15But I didn't feel like I was watching Sunderland with 10 men out.
17:19I thought that the co-op pretty well.
17:22Le Brun sort of stuck to his guns, didn't he, really, in terms of his formation.
17:26He resisted the temptation to bring Alici on at half-time and sort of was playing with like three centre-backs with the wingers having to come back in.
17:36So, yeah, it was a game full of incident, wasn't it, without, you know, too many goals, unfortunately, for Sunderland until right at the death.
17:43But it would be interesting to see how they would get on 11 v 11 for 90 minutes.
17:49I feel like we've left that game with a lot more questions than answers, really, because, you know, Sheffield United are at the top of the league, having two points deducted.
17:57They've clearly been the best team out of the 18, 19 games that everybody's played so far this season.
18:02Yeah, I thought Sunderland were fairly comfortable against them for large parts away from home.
18:08So I'm interested to see the return fixture and where the two clubs are at come when that rules are out.
18:15And obviously, you know, we spoke about Sunderland's wealth of options at the heart of defence multiple times already this season.
18:23You don't want to be losing a player like Chris Mepham.
18:24But if there is one area of the pitch where you feel Sunderland can probably absorb that blow for a game, it is the heart of defence.
18:31I mean, obviously, Dennis Serkin absent again on Friday, but Addy Elise is an option at left back.
18:37Would you assume that it would be Luke O'Neill and Dan Ballard probably starting against Stoke?
18:42Yeah, I think so. I mean, obviously, Fiddle will speak to Lebris on Thursday, but Dennis Serkin could be back for the game against Stoke City.
18:50We'll have to sort of wait and see.
18:52So, you know, Dan Ballard's been pretty impressive since his return, in my opinion.
18:57Luke O'Neill, obviously, he started at left back, didn't he?
19:01Against Sheffield United, having started on the opposite flank the previous game.
19:06He gave away the ball, actually, which led to Mepham sending off.
19:09He owned up to that mistake afterwards. These things happen.
19:12He's so influential, I don't think he's going to be dropped, to be honest.
19:14So I think it will be him and Ballard back into the middle.
19:17Addy Elise just coming back, could start at left back for Serkin if he's not fit.
19:23So that is definitely one to watch.
19:24But I think having Elise on the bench, you know, when he's just come back from injury is no bad thing at all.
19:31Right back, obviously, I think it's going to be Trae Hulme, as usual.
19:35So it's not as catastrophic a blow as it could have been, with the caveat that Chris Mepham has, you know,
19:41been one of Sunderland's best players this season, I would say, alongside Job.
19:48And potentially 0-9 as well, I think, has been right up there in terms of his performance levels.
19:53So, yeah, I think that defence looks OK and sort of credit to the club as well,
19:58because I feel like they've fleshed those defensive positions out.
20:01Again, it's been a problem for Sunderland over the years, obviously, thinking back to the playoff season.
20:06So they've managed to manage the injuries and suspensions back there quite well, I would say.
20:14It would just be nice if we did have a little bit more cover at full back.
20:17I think if Niall Huggins was fit and firing, that would solve a lot of issues.
20:22But unfortunately, he's not at the moment.
20:26Obviously, you've mentioned how important this Stoke game now is, the sort of the hue that that's taken on in the context of recent results.
20:33But I mean, you look at where they're at on the table, 14th at the moment, it's no wins in four for them, three draws and a defeat.
20:41I mean, at the Stadium of Light, with the crowd behind them, do you see this as,
20:47obviously there's no easy games in the Championship, but as winnable a game as someone could potentially be hoping for right now?
20:54Yeah, it does feel like a nice fixture.
20:58And I don't mean that with any disrespect to Stoke City, obviously, that they haven't won for the last three.
21:03As you mentioned, they are mid-table.
21:06They haven't really looked like doing anything in the Championship for two, three, four seasons now.
21:12That's saying that there'll be no mugs.
21:14There's a little bit of quality in that team.
21:17And it's really tough because the Championship throws up these weird results, doesn't it?
21:22And it's so tight that Stoke City, I think, are only sort of, let me work it out, I think they're six points off the relegation zone.
21:33But then in terms of sort of getting up to the playoff spots, they're only nine points off.
21:37So, they are like firmly mid-table, really.
21:40So, you would expect Sunderland, given what they've shown earlier in the season, could sort of dispatch a team like that at home.
21:49But, you know, we saw against Coventry them throw it away.
21:52So, as I mentioned earlier in the podcast, it's really one of those where I think they need a little bit of a statement.
21:57They need a good performance.
21:58It needs to be controlled and measured.
22:00Concentration for the full 19, you know, and it is a nice fixture, to be blunt, to try and enact that, I think.
22:09But you've always got to be wary in the Championship because, you know, anybody can turn anybody over and it can all change very, very quickly.
22:16And as I mentioned earlier, you don't want to see this slump continue, really.
22:21You want that feel-good factor back around the place.
22:24And I think it's important for the confidence of the players as well to go out and perform well and get a result.
22:30Because, you know, as I said, you don't want to become this team that maybe starts well and then drops off.
22:37There's been plenty of teams over the years who've been up there at the beginning of the season, heading into the 15th, 16th, 17th games,
22:45and then suddenly they've dropped off and dropped off and finished mid-table.
22:49So, I don't think that'll happen at the Sunderland.
22:52I'm very optimistic, but there's always a danger of that.
22:55And they really do need to prove against Stoke that they can sort of step it up again.
23:00And you sort of mentioned that it's a nice fixture a couple of times there.
23:03It's a nice fixture that we're going to be seeing an awful lot of over the coming weeks as well, obviously, too, with succession in the league.
23:11And then that FA Cup third round draw last night as well.
23:15We're recording this on, it is a Tuesday, isn't it, James? I'm lost off already.
23:18But it's, yeah, like, so it's going to be Stoke City at Stadium Light in the FA Cup third round.
23:25Obviously, huge difference from last year when it was Newcastle United at Stadium Light in the third round.
23:31I'm interested to get your thoughts on this one, because it's not the sort of draw that on the surface appears to excite.
23:39But on the basis of the fact that it could be a winnable game for Sunderland,
23:44is there some sort of excitement to be taken from that, that they might potentially be able to put together a couple of wins in the cup?
23:52I'm just interested to get your thoughts on this one.
23:55To be brutally honest with you, when I was sat there waiting for the draw, and this with the greatest of respect to Stoke City, the football club,
24:01you know, I respect, but it's just, it didn't excite me at all.
24:05To be honest, I wanted, like, I don't know, Tamworth away or something, somewhere I've never been before, maybe.
24:12I think a home draw is always welcome.
24:14If you're one of these who, you know, travels up and down the country around Christmas time, sometimes it's nice to have that home draw.
24:22I think the players and the staff at Sunderland will probably appreciate the home draw.
24:27But, you know, Stoke at home in the FA Cup doesn't really do much for me, it doesn't scream excitement, with all due respect.
24:36And I think it will be really interesting to see where Sunderland are at when that FA Cup tie comes around,
24:40because obviously last year they were under the stewardship of Michael Beale.
24:44They were in a rut and the feeling around the club was absolutely terrible due to a myriad of off-field factors as well.
24:53And it'll be interesting to see how Sunderland are doing by then.
24:57It'll be interesting to see what team reduced the Breeze goals for, because in the Carabao Cup he sort of just said,
25:03well, I'm just going to play the reserves and we'll see what happens.
25:09And, you know, Sunderland put up a decent fight for large parts of that game, but lost it in the end.
25:15So, will he take the Cup seriously? I don't know.
25:17Where will Sunderland be in the league come January the 11th?
25:21You know, God knows, we'll have played a lot of football by then, we'll have played Stoke at home by then and away by then.
25:30Yeah, because the away games on the 29th of December.
25:33So, I mean, you know, if you do get past Stoke, then you could get a decent draw in the fourth round.
25:41And then all of a sudden you're looking at the fifth and beyond and it can get exciting.
25:46But for me in isolation, that FA Cup third round didn't really do much for me.
25:51I think, you know, you want a team maybe that you don't play very often, like off the top of my head, like a Salford or a Tamworth or something like that.
26:00Or, you know, I was quite keen to go to Goodison Park maybe for the last time, or like the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium,
26:08something a bit luxurious perhaps, opposite end of the spectrum, like Tamworth or Salford.
26:13But yeah, I mean, it didn't really get my juices flowing.
26:16I don't know about you, Jason.
26:17I would have liked Man City, that would have been good there in bad form, aren't they?
26:22Yeah, a clash of two teams on a bit of a, I think it's better than one, City and Sunderland.
26:28Yeah, I fully agree with you.
26:29It's not one that's going to get the blood pumping, is it?
26:32And I also think it's hard to know, like you say, how highly La Brice values the FA Cup.
26:40Obviously, it seemed as if, it was a combination of things.
26:44I think early in the season, it kind of felt as if he was maybe trying to get a handle on which of his sort of reserve players, the squad players, if you like,
26:53which ones he genuinely could get something out of, which ones he felt were maybe a little bit service requirements.
26:58Sort of 90 minutes that you kind of get the impression he saw as a bit of a free hit and a chance for some players to prove themselves.
27:04Obviously, off the back of that, you know, the last game, the last start that Pierre Equa had before he went out on loan, for instance.
27:11You know, Abdoula Bar has not really been involved in the first team much since then as well.
27:15But then the other side of that is as well is that, you know, La Brice is coming from French football, where there is only one cup competition.
27:24Obviously, the Carabao. England's relatively unusual in the fact that there are two domestic competitions.
27:31Carabao is always sort of seen as the lesser of those.
27:34And there is that part of you that wonders, well, was it just a case of him not really putting much sort of credence into a third domestic competition?
27:43Might it be the case that, you know, when we're talking about the FA Cup and when we're talking about the more senior of those two tournaments,
27:49that he sort of looks at it with a little bit more esteem and a little bit more sort of gusto, if you like.
27:56That being said, I think that absolutely everybody associated with the club, from La Brice and his management staff to the players to the fans,
28:06would look at it and go, if you're given a choice between a long cup run and a more sustained promotion push, there's obviously only one answer.
28:13You know, so I think for those reasons, it wouldn't be a huge surprise if Sunderland maybe don't go all out, you know,
28:21to potentially put together some sort of incredible fairytale cup run.
28:25But at the same time, when you present it with a team like Stoke, who on paper, it feels like we're absolutely battering Stoke, who we're not.
28:32But on paper, the other team, Sunderland, would probably fancy their chances against.
28:37When you present it with a game like that, then, you know, you kind of wonder whether it might be one where he could field a strong enough team for it to maybe try and get it.
28:45Here's one for you, Jason. Here's one for you.
28:47So I've got a magic wand and I can guarantee you that Sunderland win the FA Cup this season, but they won't get promoted to the Premier League for another 10 years.
28:55What are you doing?
28:57Oh, that's a hard one, isn't it?
28:59It's a hard one.
29:01I don't know.
29:02I'd be interested to know what the majority of fans think about that.
29:05I might run a touch ball.
29:06I'm going FA Cup all day long for me, to be honest.
29:09Well, I'm sort of leaning towards that because my thinking is that how many teams do we see go up and come straight back down?
29:16You know, and since 73, how many times have Sunderland genuinely been within touching distance of a major trophy?
29:25We're talking a handful, like a very small handful.
29:2992, 2014, 85.
29:33They had that semi-final against Millwalden.
29:35Other than that, it's ten pickings, really.
29:38It's hard, isn't it?
29:39And I think that, you know, in that time, Sunderland have suffered countless promotions and relegations.
29:45You know, in some respects, for long periods, they've been something of a yo-yo club at times.
29:51So I think, yeah, I think, now I think about it, I think if you're given the option between a promotion that could happen,
29:58you know, at any point, really, or a major trophy, surely you've got to go with a major trophy, haven't you?
30:03I would be interested to see the results of that poll, and I would actually be interested to see, like, the results broken down by age.
30:09Because I think me and you are probably still in that generation when, like, it was towards the end that the FA Cup, like, really still meant something.
30:18Like, it was a game played entirely by itself on its own day.
30:22You know, the coverage started from, like, 10 o'clock.
30:24It went on for a long, long time.
30:26And I'd be interested to see what the younger generation would make of that.
30:29Because, like, the last, like, 10, 15 years, it's been exclusively won by the top four or five teams in the Premier League.
30:37And it was pretty dominated by that before as well.
30:41So, yeah, maybe we should do something around that.
30:44Yeah, this is a week behind the curtain.
30:47Sunderland are both formally playing, live on it, as things are going on.
30:51Shall we talk a couple of contracts, a couple of potential transfers and stuff such as that?
30:56I know, obviously, in the last few days, you've been writing a little bit about Matty Young, obviously, out on loan at Salford City at the moment,
31:04and Harrison Jones as well, who continues to impress for the under-21s.
31:09Just wondering if you've got any sort of updates on where they can really stand in terms of their sort of...
31:17Yeah, Matty Young is really interesting.
31:19Obviously, he spent time out on loan at Darlington in the National League last season, earned rave reviews, very highly rated England youth goalkeeper.
31:27I think everybody at Sunderland has probably heard his name.
31:30He played for Tony Mowbray in America during that pre-season, played in the FA Youth Cup for Sunderland last season as well.
31:39He signed for Salford City on loan last summer.
31:44Now, he's been in competition with Jamie Jones, who's 35.
31:48So, Salford have got two keepers on opposite ends of the spectrum.
31:53Jamie Jones has been playing in the league.
31:55Salford are sort of mid-table in League Two.
31:58Matty Young's been playing in cup competitions.
32:01Salford are managed by Karl Robinson, former Oxford United manager.
32:05He's been doing quite well in those cup competitions.
32:07He saved a couple of penalties in a shootout against Wolves, under-21s, I think, in the Papa John's Trophy.
32:14Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, Chase, but I think that's right.
32:18And then he played in the FA Cup against Cheltenham last week, and he got man of the match and saved another penalty.
32:25I've seen a lot of Salford fans suggesting that they'd like to see him come in for Jones in the league.
32:32I think it's probably a consideration of Karl Robinson at the moment.
32:37Now, where this relates to Sunderland is they do have a recall option in January to get Matty Young back if they want.
32:43He hasn't played for Sunderland this season, so they could send him back out on loan to somewhere where he's going to play in the league week in, week out.
32:51So, although nothing's been decided yet, nothing's been resolved, there is that sort of uncertainty around Matty Young at Salford at the moment.
32:57And actually, Salford play Harrogate Town tonight in League Two,
33:02and I think that'll give us a fairly decent indication of where Matty Young's future lies beyond January,
33:09because I would suggest if he starts that game, then he's possibly first choice for the rest of the season,
33:16barring sort of terrible form or injury or suspension, anything like that.
33:21Salford drew Man City in the third round as well, so I'd imagine Matty Young quite fancies that if he's going to be the cupkeeper.
33:28So, definitely want to watch. But yeah, really interesting because he's so highly rated, isn't he, Matty Young?
33:35Harrison Jones, the Sunderland Under-21 captain, I think talks are still ongoing with him surrounding a new contract.
33:43We broke the news in the summer that Matty Young and Harrison Jones were negotiating contracts with Sunderland.
33:48Matty Young signed his recently, Harrison Jones is still ongoing.
33:52I think they're hoping for a resolution around Christmas time, and he's actually one as well that could go out on loan after that contract is signed.
34:01He could go out on loan in January, potentially to a League Two club.
34:05Failing that, he could actually go to the National League after the transfer window has closed as well, like Caden Kelly and Ben Crompton.
34:13So, yeah, a couple of little sort of side things to watch away from the first team at the moment.
34:19Yeah, and it's interesting you mention those loans because Sunderland are a few players out at the moment,
34:25a few players who haven't had a decent amount of success over the weekend as well.
34:28Obviously, you mentioned Caden Kelly there, scored his first goal at Darlow, a hell of a strike as well, it has to be said.
34:35And then he goes and crashes one off the crossbar from the halfway line as well.
34:39Looks like he's really starting to find his rhythm in the National League now.
34:42So that's obviously pleasing to see.
34:44And Ben Crompton as well appears to be making a bit of an impact at Tamworth.
34:48Obviously, they squeezed their way through the third round of the FA Cup as well.
34:52So it's nice to see these players getting senior minutes and the opportunity to grow and sort of develop their game a little bit,
34:59because these are players that we watch on a weekly basis, the U21s, James, and obviously it can be so difficult for them to make that next step.
35:07But when you look at a player like Crompton, who's maybe a little bit older than some of the other players around him,
35:14if he can go out and prove that he is able to mix it in senior football, that can only be a good thing for him.
35:18And presumably it can only be a good thing for Sunderland as well.
35:22I think it's always really good for these players to go out and experience that sort of senior environment, really,
35:28because playing football at that level, it's very different to playing in the U21s.
35:33You meet different characters and it's helped a lot of players just at Sunderland over the years.
35:38Jordan Pickford went out quite a lot, didn't he?
35:40So I got a message from a contact who supports Stanton, Craig Stadhart.
35:46He's a journalist as well.
35:47He got in touch to say that he showed me the video of Kevin Kelly's goal.
35:52He pointed out that Kelly also won the fans' man of the match.
35:55It was easily the best game of his loan so far.
35:58I think he actually hit the bar from the halfway line as well.
36:02And Craig added that he's got a great first touch.
36:04He's quick and looks to run at defenders with the ball.
36:07In his previous games, he's only threatened briefly, just the odd moment.
36:11But yesterday, he was excellent.
36:13He obviously said that on Sunday, so he's referring to Saturday.
36:16So, yeah, I think it is good for Kelly because when I'd seen him for the U21s recently,
36:21I just thought he was maybe stagnating a little bit.
36:25I think it's very easy to stagnate at U21 level because you're like in a half warehouse, aren't you?
36:30You're not playing non-league football, but you're not playing EFL league football either.
36:36And you can just stagnate a little bit.
36:38And I think it's going to be good.
36:40And Sunderland have actually, to be fair, they've utilised those sorts of situations
36:46really well over the years.
36:47Obviously, Adam Richardson's been out and I think is still out.
36:51He's been a heaven, hasn't he?
36:53I think he's a blind now.
36:54Ben Crompton's a player I really like and, again, is in that half warehouse of not quite
37:00stepping it up to the first team, needs to go and experience something different.
37:05So, I think it's really good for these players and good that Sunderland can facilitate those moves as well.
37:11And I think we're lucky.
37:13I know Crompton's at Tamworth, which is nowhere near really the area that I'm talking about.
37:17But in the north-east with clubs like Darlow Blythe, Heaven, there's such a strong
37:24grassroots and non-league scene up here that it makes sense to utilise that.
37:31Yes, and while we're on the topic of loanees as well, a little shout out to Louis Hermia.
37:36He got his first goal for Juventus next gen in Serie C over the weekend.
37:42He scored a really tidy left-footed finish, to be fair to him, at the end of a really decent move from Juventus
37:48in a 2-1 win against a team called Toronto, who prior to this weekend I had never heard of.
37:54So, yes, that's now one goal in 14 for him.
37:57So, the redemption arc could be on, James, do you reckon?
37:59Yes, it could be.
38:02It could happen, but we'll see.
38:06Yes, I don't really know what to make of Hermia.
38:10I haven't really paid much mind to Hermia, so it feels weird to start having to think about him again,
38:15to be honest. I wasn't expecting to until at least the summer.
38:18So, we'll see how he gets on and reassess, I think, when the summer transfer window rolls around.
38:24And to be fair, one man who is consistently impressing as well, who I want to get your opinion on, is Nectar Triantis.
38:30Obviously, he's playing in a Hibernian team who are struggling a little bit.
38:35They're second off bottom in the Scottish Premiership at the moment.
38:38But he won Man of the Match again at the weekend.
38:41I think it was a 3-0 win over Motherwell.
38:43Again, I might have got that wrong, so forgive me if I have.
38:46But another really impressive performance from him.
38:48And he continues to play in this sort of deep-lying midfield role.
38:52Obviously, we've spoken a lot about Sunderland potentially needing a body or two.
38:58I'm not suggesting that he'd come back in January or anything like that.
39:01But do you see a version of events where potentially he might still have a future at Sunderland
39:06in a slightly different position to the one that he was initially signed for?
39:10Yes, I think so.
39:11I think what's really good is that he's playing games, isn't he?
39:15I think he's appeared 11 times in the league already this season.
39:17He got 12 games last season as well.
39:19So, that's already going to help him.
39:21He's only 21 still.
39:22So, I think there's a long way to go before we sort of discard Triantis as an option for Sunderland.
39:28Obviously, he'll have to come back in the summer and see how it goes from there.
39:32But the position thing is really interesting because he was most definitely signed as a centre-back.
39:36There was no sort of talk about him being able to play midfield or wasn't referenced by Speakman that he was versatile.
39:43You know, Mowbray never mentioned it.
39:44Beale never mentioned it.
39:45He never played there really, did he?
39:47It just wasn't an option.
39:48He's gone to Hibbs and started to play there.
39:51And he's put in some eye-catching performances, hasn't he?
39:54So, yes, interesting to see what the future holds for him.
39:57I do rate him.
39:59I think, again, he needed to go and do this again because I watched him for the under-21s.
40:06They played Newcastle away.
40:09And I think it might have been the opening game of the Premier League too, or the second game of the Premier League too,
40:13because I think we had Newcastle and Middlesbrough and Middlesbrough and Newcastle.
40:16I can't remember which order it was in.
40:17And I wouldn't say he looked out of sorts, but he looked like he was just going through the motions,
40:23like, oh, I'm sort of back playing under-21s football again.
40:26So I think he does need to play and get that experience because, again, as we mentioned,
40:31I think I really enjoy watching under-21s football.
40:34And in terms of, like, in terms of a Trey Ogunsoe, who's, like, 18, playing above his age group,
40:40or Tommy Watson, who was playing way above his age group,
40:42it's really exciting to watch those sorts of players come through because they're, you know, they're ready and they're at it.
40:49But when you're sort of getting towards your 20, your 21, you want to be pushing on.
40:54You want to be playing games.
40:55You want to be trying to make a career out of it, don't you?
40:57So I think Trey Ogunsoe certainly falls into that category.
40:59And it's good that he's playing games.
41:01It's only going to benefit him.
41:04Absolutely.
41:05Lovely stuff.
41:05I think that's probably all we've got time for on this week's show.
41:08Join us again next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and developments.
41:12In the meantime, follow all the latest Black Cats news on the Sunderland Echo,
41:16or you can give us a follow on social media as well.
41:18Thanks to James.
41:19Thanks to you for listening.