Sunderland slip up against Coventry; injury and suspension latest ahead of Millwall
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00:00Hello and welcome along to the RAW podcast. My name's James and I'm joined by my colleague
00:25Phil from the Southern Echo. We're going to get stuck into Sunderland's 2-0 draw with
00:29Coventry City at the Stadium of Light Sunderland, throwing away a two-goal lead. Brilliant goals
00:34from Wilson Eastdoor and Dennis Sirk and Phil, and a fantastic first half actually, but that
00:39second, my, my. The amount of things that went wrong. He could make a podcast by himself,
00:45but yeah, what did you make of that day against Coventry?
00:49Yeah, frustrating. I think I might be about to sneeze by the way, so if I suddenly go
00:52on mute, don't be alarmed if you're listening or alarmed if you're watching. I think it's
00:57past, I think we're all right. Great timing. Yeah, it was so frustrating because obviously,
01:04you know, on the back of the QPR and Preston games, I think everyone had been looking at
01:07that game saying, well, look, you know, if you can win this game, then those points become
01:12good points given the circumstances of obviously having 10 men at QPR and what have you. And
01:17obviously at half time, Sunderland had complete control of the game. And listen, like Coventry,
01:22you know, they're, they're a good side. I expect them to finish a lot higher on the
01:25table than they are now. We saw in the second half, like Padge, you're right, he's a great
01:29player, really good movement, really quick. But Sunderland will probably never get a better
01:33chance to beat them. It feels like there's almost some kind of curse against Coventry.
01:36I think it's nine games, isn't it, since we beat them last. And you know, you look at
01:40the fact that basically their three first choice centre midfielders were all absent,
01:43their third choice goalkeeper was playing and he was ill. Ella Sims obviously wasn't
01:49fit enough to get any minutes. The emotional sort of challenge that they'd had with Mark
01:54Robbins leaving in the week, it was a really golden opportunity missed, I think. And I
02:00think in a lot of ways, it's like probably the most frustrating result of the season
02:05because of the position they were in. And it just felt like, yeah, they really had a
02:09golden opportunity to pass them by. And it all kind of puts a different spin on the week,
02:15doesn't it? You know, if you win, then your points away at QPR and Preston, I think are
02:19decent points when you're not at your best. Having drawn that game from the position they
02:23were in, obviously those results don't look quite so good now in that respect.
02:28Yeah, absolutely. And that second half as well, Phil, I guess what's even more frustrating,
02:33and I agree with your assessment that it is the most annoying game of the season, I think
02:36so far, is that Sunderland actually had chances to put Coventry in a bed as well. And even
02:42though Coventry did well to come back into the game, in terms of the quality, I actually
02:46thought the quality was still with Sunderland. Yes, Coventry do have some good players on
02:50the ball, but I just felt it was not a bad attitude or bad mentality or anything like
02:58that, but I just thought it was a bit sort of rabid in the headlights again. Maybe it's
03:01perhaps what we saw against Leeds a little bit, that just sometimes in games they maybe
03:06have something mentally where they drop off the concentration levels out there or something
03:10like that. It feels very harsh and very bizarre to criticise them too much because at the
03:15end of the day, they're going into the international break, top of the league, but it's such a
03:20weird and frustrating second half that.
03:23Yes, I think that I did feel at the time that maybe there was a bit of complacency, maybe
03:29it was a bit of a mentality issue that they'd not so much deliberately sat off the game,
03:34but they just hadn't found the intensity that they'd played within the first half. It was
03:38interesting listening to the post-match press conferences because you tend to get a bit
03:41more of a sort of emotionless view from the head coaches a lot of the time, and it was
03:47interesting because the Coventry interim boss Rhys Carr said to me that they'd made
03:52a concerted effort at half-time to press higher up the pitch and to get their centre-halves
03:55higher up the pitch. Lebris was very clear that he felt the main issue was basically
03:59that someone didn't keep the ball well enough under pressure, so they were turning the ball
04:03over and basically inviting pressure. I think that is something to reflect on going forward
04:08a little bit because it was very similar to what happened in the first half an hour at
04:12Preston, where Preston pressed really, really, really aggressively and pushed their wing-backs
04:17really high up the pitch, almost playing as wingers. So they essentially had a front,
04:21pretty much a front five, really. Obviously, Sunderland, you feel like that should be a
04:27really good thing for them because of the pace we've got on the break and because of
04:30the players we've got on the break, that should yield a lot of opportunities. But at the moment,
04:34they're not really playing particularly well against that kind of approach and are actually
04:38struggling when teams are able to execute a really good press. So, I wonder if there's
04:42something tactical, really, for Sunderland to reflect on a little bit going forward as
04:45well. But I do agree with you, it did feel to me like the intensity dropped. Now, was
04:51that fatigue? I'm not sure. Was that complacency? It's impossible for us, really, to get to
04:57the bottom of that from our position. But, yeah, it was really poor. I think you have
05:01to say as well that I know the momentum the game had flipped in Sunderland playing poorly,
05:05but to lose Brown and Mundell in literally the same passage of play, I think that would
05:12affect any team. And it was clearly, I think, an important part of the game because a game
05:16that was already, felt like it was starting to slip away from Sunderland a little bit,
05:20that just felt like the icing on the cake, didn't it? So, I do think that was not the
05:27most important factor in the result because I do think Coventry were on top of that point,
05:30but it was certainly a very important part.
05:33Yeah, Rhys Carr also said that he popped two paracetamol coming into the press conference
05:38because he had a stomach headache, which probably tells you all you need to know about
05:42the strains of his day. You mentioned there, Phil, Romain Mundell coming off with an injury,
05:47Alan Brown coming off with an injury. Just tactically in that second half, in terms of
05:52Liberee's changes and the changes to Sunderland's shape, what did you make of it? Because he
05:58brought Ballard on, which I don't necessarily have an issue with because he's done that
06:02before in games. You could say that perhaps that was a little bit too defensive. It's
06:07one of those where if it works great, if it doesn't, then everybody looks at that. Perhaps
06:11Sunderland sacrificed a little bit of midfield control. The thing for me that was strange
06:16was that Sunderland went to sort of a flat-back five, but then you had the two wingers, Isidor
06:19went out over to the left, Roberts was still on. You had them directly in front of the
06:24full-backs playing as wingers and then Aaron Connolly through the middle. I think that
06:27was a problem for a couple of reasons. You lost that sort of outlet, didn't you, with
06:32Isidor up front, the ball wouldn't stick. Sunderland just seemed to sit deeper and deeper
06:38and it just didn't seem to work for me. I think Liberee's explained afterwards that
06:41he had no regrets. I think there's a legitimate and genuine tactical plan there that feasibly
06:48could have worked, but on the day I just felt like he got that a little bit wrong. Looking
06:53back to Preston as well, he started the game with Connolly up front, Isidor out wide and
06:58then Tommy Watson off the right. I have no issue with Liberee's making those changes
07:03at all, but for me it would have been Watson off the left, Connolly off the right and then
07:07perhaps Isidor up front. Just these little sort of in-game things that Liberee's learning
07:12about his squad are very interesting, aren't they?
07:15Yeah, I think so. I think it's important as well that it's really easy to judge your decisions
07:22with hindsight. The one thing I don't particularly like it when it feels like Sunderland's sitting
07:26off the game and inviting pressure. We also have to acknowledge that by and large this
07:30season they've done that incredibly effectively and it's a horrible watch for us, but actually
07:34there have been a lot of games where they've sort of taken that approach at the stadium
07:38and they've barely given up a chance. So, Middlesbrough and Burnley are the two obvious
07:43examples that I can think of where they've taken the lead and they've defended in a relatively
07:48low block. Actually, QPR with 10 men last Saturday, they defended in a pretty low block.
07:53It's something that Liberee obviously coaches very well and that they're very good at. So,
07:59I think I agree with you. I don't really hate the Ballard one. I think that's an understandable
08:04decision and in a weird kind of way it was justified by the fact that Coventry scored
08:09from a corner because the whole point of bringing Ballard on was that he sensed that it was
08:13going to be a bit of a barrage of the Sunderland box and generally speaking obviously Ballard
08:16was very good at that. I think I agree with you. The one that I felt really didn't work
08:21was Isidore out wide. Obviously Isidore can play there, he's played there a lot, but at
08:27the moment he's way more effective for Sunderland through the middle and I think your point
08:31is right. Connolly I don't think had a great impact on Saturday but he was also very, very
08:38isolated and I think you're asking a lot of Aaron Connolly to basically play against three
08:42centre-halves with no Sunderland player kind of within 20 yards of him. So, I agree with
08:47you. That was a big issue. Connolly looks like he's a player who needs people around
08:50him to bounce off and that wasn't the case on Saturday. So, yeah, I largely agree with
08:55you. The Ballard one, Ballard to Mundell was a fairly negative sub but one I kind of understood.
09:02Yeah, me too, me too.
09:05I think that Isidore moving out wide really didn't work and again it's like, yeah, I think,
09:13I know, I understand his logic when we asked him about not making life-alike subs was that
09:17he didn't feel it was the right moment for the young players to give Oleksii a debut
09:21to bring Watson on and I kind of understand that as well, to be fair, but would that not,
09:26I think that might be a decent time for Watson, to be honest.
09:29Yeah, and is it not a full-on argument as well? Obviously, you mentioned Watson but
09:36Maienda, I know he's coming back from an injury but he's done well in the Sunderland shirt
09:41this season over Connolly perhaps with the game stretched with his pace. I know Connolly
09:45is a little bit more experienced than Maienda but that's another one where, because Sunderland
09:49have drawn the game, fans are looking at that one and saying Lebris got that absolutely wrong.
09:55Yeah, I think in the context of, it's really tricky that because Connolly has been really
10:01effective when Sunderland have been managing the lead. Like, if you think about the Luton
10:04in the old games, we were praising Connolly because he came on, he won three kicks.
10:08So, again, it's like, I think, I don't have a strong opinion on that one other than I
10:15understand. Maienda, I think you could argue could be unfortunate because he's had a good
10:18goal-scoring record at the start of the season. One thing I would say about that is, I think
10:22it's a stretch to suggest, given how isolated Connolly was, I think it's a stretch to say
10:27Maienda would have been loads more effective in the same scenario, if that makes sense.
10:30I think he might have actually faced some similar issues. I think if you're, when the
10:36centre forward is that isolated, I think Isidor is probably the best equipped of what we've seen
10:40to deal with that. And even he struggled against leads really at times, didn't he?
10:44And times in the games when it's pretty much just him on his own. So, I think the strike one,
10:49I think it's more just about the way generally Sunderland's shape ended up looking and how
10:53isolated they were. So, I wouldn't, when I've had a couple of days to reflect on it, I don't,
10:59again, it's not so much the fact that he brought Connolly on instead of Maienda. I think it was
11:03just the way that this shape ended up that I think didn't help anyone.
11:08Yeah, and it's turning into a little bit of a nightmare scenario, isn't it,
11:11ahead of Millwall in two weeks' time, because Joe Bellingham will still be suspended for that. And I
11:17thought he was a massive miss actually, Phil. It's really, really noticeable when you take him out of
11:23that side. I think you sort of look at it and you look at the season so far, 15 games in, and you go
11:29he's played well, he's played well, he's contributed, he's looked good. You know,
11:33they've all looked good in flashes, but then that for me has been a realisation that actually,
11:38I think Job has been Sunderland's best player and most important player. I just think,
11:43take him out of that side and Sunderland are lacking in that midfield. No disrespect to Alan
11:47Brown, who's got a lot of experience, but I just think Job's performances have been on another
11:51level this season. And then you've got this scenario now where Roberts was booked, Hulme was
11:55booked, so they'll miss Sunderland's next game against Millwall. Mundell, you'd have to fear,
12:00is a big doubt given the type of injury that it looked to be on the field. Obviously, Labrise
12:05didn't give specifics. Brown looked more of an impact. He tried to carry on but couldn't,
12:09so you never know with him. The point I'm trying to make, and I've taken a while to get there, is
12:14with Millwall in two weeks, it's looking down to the bare bones, isn't it? And a big test
12:20of any side's promotion credentials is away at Millwall at the Den,
12:25and you don't want to be going into it without arguably five senior players.
12:30Yeah, and I think it's a really interesting dynamic, isn't it? Because one of the things
12:33that made Sunderland so effective in the first 10 games of the season is obviously that stability and
12:38continuity that Labrise was able to build within the team and all those little partnerships and
12:42triangles. And I think what we've understandably seen is, even at times when Riggs has been missing,
12:47you've noticed a drop. And I'm not sure that's necessarily all purely about the quality of the
12:52player. I think it is about the fact that those other partnerships aren't as well-formed.
12:57I think, and I agree with you, I think Job's been a big miss in the last few games. And Millwall,
13:01even in the best-case scenario that Brown and Mundell play, and I agree with you,
13:05at this point we have to consider it unlikely that both of them would be fully fit, fingers
13:08crossed. But even in the best-case scenario where you're just missing Hume, Bellingham and Roberts,
13:14that's a huge part of what has made Sunderland so successful in the early parts of the season.
13:21That's a huge part of that gone. I think that it's really hard to know exactly what he'll do,
13:26other than I think the obvious solution is to go a kind of a back three and bring Ballard back,
13:30I think. It's not ideal to have to change shape. I wouldn't suggest. You do have two weeks to
13:36prepare for it, which is a positive. Obviously, some players will be away on international duty,
13:40but generally speaking, there is a bit of time to actually work on those
13:44new partnerships and systems. So I kind of see Ballard coming into a back three,
13:48we go nine on Mepham, shifting into a bit of a sort of right-sided role.
13:54And then moving forward, it's really difficult to know what he'll do. A lot will depend on Brown and
13:58Mundell, because if they're both out, then you really are going to have to come up with something
14:02fairly different, I think. And if both of those players are out, I think there's a chance you're
14:06looking at maybe playing two up top, because without Roberts and without Mundell, I think
14:10there's a strong argument for playing Isidoro Mianda together or Isidoro and Connolly together
14:16and going about it that way. So he's going to have to come up with something pretty much
14:19completely different, I think, and it's going to be really interesting. It's going to be a really
14:23interesting week, to be honest. If you look at the week of fixtures, Millwall away, then obviously
14:29Job, Roberts and Hulme as a minimum will be back, which will be a big boost. But games against
14:33West Brom and Sheffield United, isn't it, within four days of each other? I don't think Sheffield
14:37United have lost at home yet. West Brom are obviously right up there. We know how strong
14:42they are under Carlos Cobran, because we've seen it over the last two years. I think we're going to
14:45learn a lot about this team over the course of the next three games. It's going to be really
14:49interesting, because if they come through it well, this frustrating week of three draws,
14:54nobody's going to bat an eyelid, really. There is a scenario in which it drags on a little bit,
15:00and all of a sudden it becomes four or five games without a win or whatever. So,
15:04I think it's going to be a really interesting week, and it's going to be a really big test,
15:07both of Le Bris and this kind of squad depth, if you like, which we've talked about a lot
15:11over the last few weeks. And of course, when Job comes back from his three-game suspension,
15:17he's on four yellow cards. So, if he picks up a fifth, he could be in then out again. So,
15:22that's one to bear in mind. Just on that shape that Le Bris could potentially play from,
15:26who are you having as your right wing-back with Trae Hulme suspended? Because Trae Hulme is
15:34another player who Sullivan has really, really hung the hat on. He's been superb. That triangle
15:38with Robertson-Rigg on the right-hand side is really, really important. He's such a competent
15:42defender. He's been excellent for Sullivan, hasn't he? Yeah, well, Le Bris asked me if I
15:48fancied giving it a go, didn't he? He did, yes. I forgot about that. Millwall away, absolutely no
15:55chance. Thanks, Regis, but you've got absolutely no chance to get me in that team. I'll pass on
16:00that one. And I'll show it's an interesting one. I think it might be a bit left field. I don't know
16:05what you think about this. If he was fit, I definitely think Alan Brown could do that role,
16:09like I think he's got. Because I think what you'll see is it'll kind of be like,
16:15I don't know if Jack Ross used to play it a lot. It was kind of like a lopsided back three.
16:22Asymmetric.
16:23Yeah, so Lyndon Gooch would sort of play as a right back slash right winger, depending on the
16:28kind of the way the game's going. And I can see a scenario where Luke O'Neill, for example,
16:34sometimes in the game he looks like he's playing it right back and sometimes he looks like he's
16:37playing on the right of the back three. But it's a massive issue because I think ordinarily you
16:42would say, well, it's not ideal changing his shape, but you could push O'Neill across.
16:45And for all Roberts, we wouldn't say his defensive side of his game is a strong point. He has actually
16:50done it all right this season. So as you say, it's not just losing him, it's losing Roberts.
16:55It's losing a key part of that partnership in front of him. It's really difficult to know what
17:00he'd do. So if he was fit, I would kind of put Brown in there as a possible solution. I think
17:04it's a huge ask to ask Watson to play a wing back role on the wrong side. I think that's a massive
17:11ask. It's not for me. But then, I don't really know. What do you think?
17:19I mean, I'm all for it, Phil, just simply because it continues the proud tradition of
17:23Sunderland centre midfielders being punted out to full-back or wing-back. There's such a long
17:29line of great players that have suffered that. I really think Alan Brown would be a worthy person
17:36to join that tradition as well. I think he's a good, puts himself about, gets stuck in,
17:39do anything for the team. I think he'd be a really worthy player of that honour.
17:47Well, and there's no shame of it. You think of some of the players that have done it over the
17:50years, Craig Gardner, Jack Colbeck, Kieran Richardson, off the top of my head, Max Power
17:55did it, Lugo Nines done it. So, you know, it's not unheard of. I'm trying to think of any else,
18:00Phil. There must be some I'm missing.
18:04Oh, there'll be tons. We'll put this out to the reader, the people watching. There'll be
18:08all sorts who've been shoehorned in there. But I mean, Linden, I think, is an example.
18:12He was a number 10 who ended up going right back. Carl Winchester, of course.
18:18Oh, of course, Winniester, yeah. He scored a good goal from right back as well, didn't he?
18:22He did, yeah, yeah, he did, yeah. So, yeah.
18:26Good times. I'm getting PTSD to Ligue 1 at the moment. But yeah, so we'll concentrate on some
18:30positives. I know it's difficult because we've thrown away a 2-0 lead at home, could have
18:36extended our lead at the top of the championship with our level on points with Sheffield United.
18:41But Phil, the two goals in the first half performance were really promising. I mean,
18:45that finish from Isidore is fantastic. And Sergeant's goal is absolutely, well, it's lunacy,
18:52really, that he scored that. I mean, the work he had to do and the plays that he had around him to
18:56dig out the shot after the run is fantastic. And I said to you during the game, didn't I, that,
19:00you know, I really rate Mundell and I think he had a decent game against Coventry before his
19:04injury. But assists can be such a misleading metric because for the first one, he's just
19:09clipped the ball in and Isidore's produced a worldy finish. And the second one, he's managed
19:13to win the ball. It's similar to Dan Neal's against Hull for Isidore. He's managed to win
19:18the ball back, give it to Serkin. And then Serkin's ran 50 yards and smashed it in from the banks of
19:23the winger. And all of a sudden, Mundell's got two assists. But yeah, they were two really,
19:28really good goals. And that's what gives you hope, I think, in that first half performance.
19:32Yeah, for sure. And I think that, like, the other thing I was saying before about, like,
19:35the low block thing, which I don't particularly like, but you have to kind of acknowledge it's
19:38something I've been good at. We also have to say is that second half for Coventry, by and large,
19:42is the exception to what's happened at the stadium, right, this season. And the first half
19:46is more like the real. That's more what we've seen from Sunderland on home turf for the majority of
19:50the season. So I think we probably deserve to give the players and the head coach a bit of space in
19:55terms of saying, well, actually, at home, we've been pretty much outstanding all season. And we
20:01know that they can produce what they did in the first half against Coventry quite regularly,
20:06because we've seen that so far this season. So I think that's the one big thing, like,
20:09when we look at it now, 15 games into the season, Sunderland at home have looked like a really,
20:13really good side. Leeds had the better of them in spells of that game, but weren't completely
20:18dominant. Other than that, I think Sunderland have been the better team in every home game,
20:22apart from that, obviously, incredibly frustrating 45 minutes on Saturday. And even then,
20:27they had chances to score, didn't they, to kill it off in the second half when they weren't playing
20:31well. So I do think, like, we probably shouldn't be overreacting to that second half, because I
20:36think, by and large, the evidence is that Sunderland have been a really good side at home.
20:41And I don't see any major reason to think that that won't continue, sort of, into the future,
20:45especially when you get, like, Joe back and especially when, you know, Hume and Roberts
20:50come out with their suspensions and stuff. So I think that it's definitely not something we
20:55should be overreacting to, because I think that first performance was in keeping with what we've
20:59seen. I don't think that was a fluke. It's not very often you're going to score two goals
21:03that good, I think that's fair to say. One of the most annoying things about the game is, like,
21:07it almost feels like the edge has been taken off those goals, which is such a shame, because they
21:11really deserve, like, two weeks of space to be, like, get the love they deserve, to be honest,
21:16because they were brilliant. But I do think, like, a second of Mundell was so good in that first
21:20half, weren't they? You're absolutely right in what you're saying, in that Mundell will do a lot
21:24more and not get an assist than the two assists he got. But also, like, the speed and precision
21:32of the interplay, how they're circling all the way through that first half was brilliant. And I
21:35think, like, it's awesome how quickly they've been able to look as strong as Clarke and Serkin did.
21:42I think that that tells you how good Serkin is, because he's making the player in front of him
21:46look really, really good all the time. But it also tells you a lot about Mundell, his quality,
21:52first and foremost, but also his application, because at the moment, it doesn't look like,
21:57for the most part, there's much of a drop-off from Serkin and Clarke to Serkin and Mundell,
22:00and we would never have envisaged that at the start of pre-season. Everyone involved in that
22:05deserves a hell of a lot of credit, to be fair. Patrick Roberts keeps coming up as a topic of
22:11conversation in a few of the group chats that I'm in, and there seems to be two camps. There's a few
22:17fans that I've spoken to that haven't necessarily been happy with his most recent performances.
22:21They'll also point towards his goal record and his assist record, which, you know, the numbers
22:26aren't exceptionally high. And a question is sort of his role in the team, his performances, his
22:32levels, which I think is fair, common and understandable. But for me, there's the other
22:36side of Patrick Roberts in which he is vitally important to Sunderland's attack. And a lot of
22:41what Patrick Roberts does isn't really measured in the assists and goal sort of metric. I think
22:47the truth's probably somewhere in the middle. I think he maybe has had a little dip in form,
22:51but that's not to say that he's been horrendous all season. Obviously, he had that poor season
22:56last season. But where do you stand on that sort of Patrick Roberts debate, Phil?
23:00I think he's had a good season in the main. We talked about this earlier in the season,
23:04we talked about that. I think it's such a pertinent point moving on to this one in terms of
23:12Mundell's two assists that he's probably had bigger contributions that don't go down as an
23:16assist and a goal. I think Roberts often comes into that category. I think if you go through a
23:21lot of the goals this season, A, Roberts has a decent goal and assists output for a winger.
23:27It compares reasonably well to other wingers in the league. But he's been involved in loads of
23:31goals. I'm thinking of that job header, you know, where Roberts plays that brilliant little pass
23:36into Hulme, takes two players out of the game and Hulme can then cross at a job. I think Roberts does
23:40a lot of that. I personally, I think he's had a pretty strong season so far. It's not ideal and
23:50it's not his fault that at the moment, again, there isn't a huge amount of competition. The
23:54whole point of Pavetta coming in was supposed to be to offer that bit of extra sort of legs
23:58off a bench and to push Roberts and to give him the chance to rest every now and then.
24:02That hasn't happened and I don't think that's ideal. I'm not overly concerned about Roberts
24:08because I think broadly speaking, yes, he's had one or two sort of quieter games, one or two games
24:12where the final ball hasn't been there. But I think generally speaking, his output has been decent
24:17this season. I think he's looked to threat going inside and going outside. So I don't see that as
24:22a major issue. I know it was frustrating when he cut in on his left foot and smashed one over the
24:27bar and stopped the time last night. It's always frustrating when players do that. I don't know
24:31whether that's maybe lingering when people assess his performance because I think the kind of
24:35frustration you can feel in that moment can maybe sometimes sort of linger with you. So I don't know
24:39if that's part of it. So I have to be hand on heart, I think he's having a good season. I don't
24:45think he's been amazing in every game, but I don't think you would find many right wingers in the
24:50league who are amazing every single game and impacting it. And I think that if you actually
24:54go through all of someone's goals, I think you'll find Roberts having quite a big part, even if
25:02he's not necessarily getting the goal or the assist. And I think Preston was a great
25:06example of that. Someone who looked a much better team when he was on the pitch.
25:08Much, much better team. And I think that's probably worth bearing in mind as well.
25:15It's a very valid point you make, Phil, about the last act being sometimes the judger of a
25:20performance or even a career. Because just thinking of Max Power, his final act in the
25:24Sutherland shirt was to smash that ball over the goal against Lincoln in the playoffs, which
25:30probably overshadows his contributions a little bit moving forward. Anyway, Phil, I want to get
25:34your thoughts on, you've alluded to it, but whether you're a glass half-full or a glass
25:39half-empty type of person, just in terms of Sutherland season, I've seen two schools of
25:44thoughts amongst the fan base. One school of thought is that we are top of the league,
25:48unbeaten in eight, unbeaten at home, only lost two in 15. The other school of thought is that
25:54we are top of the league, but we should be clear, no win in the last three, and we should have
25:58beaten QBR, Preston, and arguably Coventry City, and that the cracks are starting to show a little
26:03bit. Which side of the fence do you sit on, or is there a middle ground? Well, there's always a
26:08middle ground. Listen, I think that, I don't think that, we talked about this a bit, so this week
26:17hasn't been a huge surprise to me, because I've said a few times, especially away from home,
26:21I don't think the evidence has been there that Sutherland are a dominant side in this division.
26:27They're an obvious top two contender, so I always felt there was a time when
26:31results would slow a little bit. I didn't particularly see that as a huge negative.
26:38I think that what we've seen from Sutherland so far this season is that they have a very,
26:40very talented group of players that is capable of beating anyone. I think they are improving
26:46rapidly at home, which gives me a lot of confidence that they can finish in the top six,
26:50but to be brutally honest, even before this week, so what would that have been the first 12 games,
26:54and I wasn't seeing evidence to suggest that they were a clear, you know, should be in the
26:59top two with this group of players. I don't think that the money they've spent dictates that they
27:03should be in the top two in this division. I just don't see it. I think it's a great thing to aim
27:07for, but I don't think the evidence is there that that's what they should be, either in terms of the
27:12money that's been spent or the quality of performances. So, I'm not overly sort of
27:20negative about what's been happening in the last week. I think it's a fairly obvious thing whereby,
27:25you know, in football, things tend to even themselves out, and I think the results have
27:28caught up a little bit with Sunderland, especially away from home. I also think the fact that because
27:33of the injuries, which we've talked about, players like Sam Ed and Perveda, who we're not seeing,
27:37the depth isn't quite there yet, and therefore we're seeing it catch up, because what we've very,
27:41very rarely seen this season is Sunderland change the game from the bench because they haven't
27:44really had the options to do it. They almost did it on Wednesday night at Preston when
27:48Mundell and Roberts came on. There was a big injection of energy, and that probably just showed
27:52you what they've been missing for most of the season. So, I think that Sunderland are in a great
27:56position now where they should be able to get to January in contention, and I think it'll be really
28:02interesting to see what the club does. Why can't they go out and get a couple of high-calibre
28:06loanees who can really leave you looking at the squad thinking they can be top two contenders?
28:12But for me, I think the ambition this season should be the play-offs, and that's my personal
28:16view. That's what we should be holding Sunderland to. I think we should expect them to challenge
28:21Forehand from this position to finish in the top six, and as of yet, I don't think we need to
28:27overreact to what's happened this week. I don't think that suggests that they're not going to be
28:30able to do that. I think they do need to improve for sure, and I think January is going to be a
28:34really important month, not in terms of going out and making seven signings, just adding some
28:39players who were a bit like Meppen was when he came in, who were ready to make a difference.
28:45And do you feel, I certainly feel Phil, just judging having watched the club and the conversations,
28:51and I feel that there's definitely an appetite to do that sort of loan. It wouldn't surprise me
28:57if Sunderland came close to a couple of those loans, perhaps towards the end of the last window
29:01and that didn't happen for whatever reason. I think now we could see in January Sunderland
29:07push a little bit harder, which to be fair, when Sunderland were up there under Tony Mowbray,
29:13we didn't really see that injection of proper quality. They did try, you have to give them
29:19some credit. They did try with a few deals that didn't come off, but I think Sunderland have now
29:23sort of stepped up a notch in terms of the transfer market, would you say?
29:28You should hope so, shouldn't you? I mean, you would think that also the Clive departure,
29:34in theory, I know Sunderland did invest kind of prior and after him going,
29:38but when you put into consideration that him and Stewart have gone in the last two summer
29:43windows for fairly significant fees, you'd like to think that there shouldn't really be any
29:49issues for Sunderland going and investing, certainly not in loan deals. I can understand
29:53why they continue to be reluctant to sort of hand out like five-year contracts to players in their
29:58late 20s, early 30s or whatever, but I don't see any reason why we shouldn't expect them to be
30:04challenging for significant loans. And let's be fair as well, like,
30:09Sunderland's stated ambition is to try and win promotion by the end of next season.
30:13So I think it kind of follows that if you're still up there towards the end of this year in January,
30:19then you should really be showing, I think, ambition where you can to try and push on.
30:24And I think that hopefully, I think there might be a little tricky spell coming up when
30:30certainly the Millwall game when we talk about those suspensions, but
30:33it should be really attractive in January to players. We should, in fair comments,
30:38be talking about a team that's in the playoff positions as a minimum, hopefully still in the
30:41top two going into January. And hopefully you will be able to say to players, look, there's a chance
30:45you'll play, you'll compete, and there's a chance that you could earn yourself a potential move to
30:49a Premier League club in the summer. So, yeah, it's going to be a really interesting kind of
30:54few months coming up. You know, we saw last year that, you know, something really derailed,
31:00obviously Millwall was Tony Mowbray's last game, their season really derailed over, you know,
31:04from Millwall onwards through December. I remember, I know there were some good wins,
31:08they beat Hull near way. But I'm also thinking of games where they lost away at Rotherham,
31:15lost away at Huddersfield. Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, they did. That might have been in January,
31:19but generally speaking, those kind of like winter months, they handled really badly last month,
31:24last year, because A, because of the off-pitch decisions, obviously the derby and all that stuff
31:28didn't help. But B, because as you mentioned, they had a, I don't want to say a bad January
31:33window because they signed Romain Mundel, which was a brilliant signing. But you could argue it
31:38wasn't what Sutler needed at the time, can't you? No, of course it wasn't. It's good to sign Romain
31:43Mundel, of course, but in terms of the needs of the team then, we had a left winger who was pretty
31:47good. Yeah, exactly that. And so, yeah, I think that's going to be a really interesting window.
31:52But just getting back to your original point, like personally, I'm very much, very, very much
31:57heartful with what's happened so far. I think Sunderland have overperformed and they've put
32:02themselves in an excellent position that I didn't see coming. And I think you could say, you know,
32:08they should have picked up more points this week, but maybe they didn't deserve to be both
32:12Hull and Luton away from home the week before. That's kind of the championship. And so as far
32:16as I'm concerned, I'm very much heartful, but I expect the team to improve as the season goes on.
32:22And I expect to see some sensible ambition in January as well.
32:27Yeah, I completely agree, Phil. And I think from the performances we've seen, I think the minimum
32:32standard this team have set themselves through their performances is they've got to be in the
32:35top six. I think if they stepped outside of that, I think you'd have to judge this season as a
32:40failure. And as I always said, and I think we've said it on the last couple of podcasts, as you
32:44rightly point out, we will know a lot more the other side of Christmas and January because those
32:50games become so thick and fast that, as you say, if Sunderland don't deal with them like they did
32:55last season, it can derail things. The positive is that Sunderland are sort of a third of the way
33:02there in terms of a points total to get promoted or get to the play-off. So there's a lot of hard
33:08work and good work already gone on, I would say. And there's a lot of reasons to be positive as
33:12well, you know, confidently not with the standard. Yeah, for sure. And I think that it's really
33:19interesting, you know, because I think there is loads of positives. And then the big thing as well,
33:24it's like, we know there is, you know, I said before, I don't think Sunderland have been amazing away from
33:30home, but generally speaking, we know there is a team there that can compete with anyone and can
33:35be really top level at this league when everyone's fit. And I think that, you know, we spoke very
33:39briefly to Le Brice about January on Friday and we talked a little bit about Sunderland's
33:45expectations. And one of the points he made as well, which was, you know, totally fair was,
33:49you know, we have to wait and see what happens with players like Sam Ed and Faveda because,
33:53you know, yeah, so far it's not worked out and it's been really frustrating. But if you remember,
33:57like Michoud, he barely kicked a ball until around now and he turned out to be a really effective
34:02player in the second half of the season. So that's going to be really interesting dynamic as well.
34:06On paper, Sunderland should have quite good squad depth. At the moment, they don't really.
34:10And I think we've seen perhaps inevitably that when there's been a couple of injuries
34:15and suspensions, there's been a drop off. Obviously, you've got Elise here to bring
34:17back into the fold as well, which is, you know, a really good one because he can play left back.
34:21So he can offer cover at a second as well. Played really well at the start of the season.
34:25So I think it's going to be like really interesting to see how things unfold over
34:28the next six weeks heading into that period. Because I think, as you say,
34:32you know, the championship, like we weren't talking about, we weren't far off the playoff
34:37positions, but we weren't really, we didn't necessarily see Sunderland as a playoff contender
34:41under Tony Mobritt this time of year. And that's a reminder that really, you just have to stay in
34:46the mix until Christmas. If you're in the mix come Christmas, it's anybody's game. And then
34:51it's about who has the best window, who has the best squad depth, who gets a bit of luck with
34:54injuries. And so I think it is definitely, and I think Lebris has got a really good temperament
35:02for that. There's not much difference in him, whether you've chucked away two goal leads,
35:05whether you've won in the last minute, whether you've won 4-0, he's pretty much the same person,
35:10whatever. He was arguably having more jokes after the Coventry game than he has done
35:18all season after a draw. I think he's just got a sense of perspective, doesn't he? And I think
35:23he's a good sort of person to be made in the club in that sense as well. So yeah, it's like,
35:29it's really, I do think January, and we keep going back to it, it will be shaped a little bit by what
35:34happens with these players who are currently injured. But I think that's going to be a really
35:37interesting month, just to see how Sunderland view it and how seriously they think they've got
35:41a chance of going up. But for me, it's all about being in touch, both with the top two and the top
35:47six by the turn of the year. And as of the moment, Sunderland are very much in that category. Yes,
35:54it was a disappointing week, but there were reasons for that. So let's kind of see how
35:58we go over the next couple of months. Just quickly, just to finish off, you mentioned
36:03Mishu, but my mind went towards Ahmad as well as a player that didn't really get started until
36:09December. And I think we'll probably forget that just because of how bloody good he was,
36:14that actually, for a while, he wasn't quite there in terms of the squad.
36:20Yeah, Sunderland posted either this morning or yesterday morning, and it was, on this day was
36:26his goal against Birmingham, you know, that one where he carried it and cut in and put it in the
36:29far corner. So that was November. That was one of his first goals for Sunderland. It was one of his
36:33first starts for Sunderland, because that was just before the World Cup went through. Yeah,
36:38I think that's a great lesson, basically, in just pointing out how little is being sorted at this
36:45stage of any season. And I suppose it's a warning to Sunderland that just because they've had a good
36:51start, it doesn't mean a huge amount, you know, but you can also take the positive of it, you
36:55know, there's so much time for players to have an impact. So I am feeling positive about where
37:01they're at and what's happening. But I do think a week like this has probably been coming to a
37:06certain extent, because I don't think at any stage they've looked like a team who's just going to
37:11dominate week in, week out. I think it was inevitable they would hit a bit of a sticky patch.
37:15No, and I get it as well. It's like we're all thirsty for success. And this team have sort of
37:20redefined our expectations, haven't they, by being so good in some games. However, what I will say,
37:25and we'll finish off soon, is that had you offered me top of the table, level on goal difference,
37:32level on points, but top of the table on goal difference after a third international break,
37:35I would have said absolutely, yes, please. Now, it's not as cut and dry as that, because obviously
37:40you then have games against Preston, QPR and Coventry, where you arguably, you know, should
37:45have won at least one of those, or you would have hoped to. So I do get it. And I do understand that,
37:50you know, fans are thirsty for success, and likely so as well, because we haven't had much of it.
37:55I do think as well, like, the aspect of it that I do really, really understand is that
38:00the division doesn't look as strong this year. You don't know what it's going to be like next year.
38:05And then when you have an opportunity, you really have to try and take it, because you can't
38:08guarantee that it'll come round again. So, you know, the first season is a great example where
38:12Sunderland finished sixth, which was a brilliant overachievement. The next year, the league was
38:16much tougher. Like, you know, you look at Southampton, that would go through the playoffs.
38:21Like, I think they would have walked this league this year. So it's like, I do...
38:25That Leeds team as well, that Leeds team that didn't get promoted, like, that was, I think,
38:29was a record, a record points total not to get automatics, wasn't it?
38:32Yeah. So I totally get that aspect of it, that part of football is sensing your opportunity,
38:40and that maybe there's an opportunity here this year that wasn't there last year,
38:43and that you can't guarantee. I mean, I think they might stay up, but let's say, for example,
38:47you know, Ipswich, Southampton and, you know, like Palace or somebody came down next year,
38:52you might be looking at it going, you know, how tough is it going to be to get into the top two?
38:57So, yeah, so that aspect of it, I totally get it in terms of, you know, I don't think it would be
39:03fair to completely redraw our expectations and judge Sunderland against anything less than,
39:09you know, my promotion is a failure. I don't think that would be fair,
39:12but I do get the argument as well is that there is an opportunity there that you've got to be kind
39:15of alert to and do your best to take as well, because you don't always know how long that's
39:20going to be there. No, absolutely. Well, we'll wrap it up there. We've nearly gone 40 minutes.
39:25It's the international break. Obviously, we might return on Monday, Phil, we might try and do some
39:29sort of special, I don't know, if you've got any ideas on Thursday to visit them in.
39:34I'm not here, so I certainly won't be.
39:37Go and do it.
39:39Perhaps me and Jason will do something, I don't know. If you've got any ideas,
39:43just throw one of us a message. But yeah, thanks for joining us, Phil. Thanks for the listener for
39:49listening. You can find all of the latest Sunderland.co content over the website and
39:53our socials and this podcast will be available later on Shots TV as well.
39:59Thanks for checking in and we'll see you next time.