👉 En medio de un clima global de violencia juvenil, Argentina ha tomado la decisión de reducir la edad mínima para comprar un arma de fuego de 21 a 18 años. Esta medida ha generado un debate sobre la madurez mental y emocional requerida para manejar armas y las implicaciones legales que esto conlleva. Además, discutimos con el abogado defensor, Norberto Markarian, el papel del sistema penal y su capacidad para rehabilitar a los jóvenes infractores.
👉Seguí en #VivoElDomingo
📺 a24.com/vivo
👉Seguí en #VivoElDomingo
📺 a24.com/vivo
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00:00We are in a social moment, doctor, where technology, television channels, information is reaching everywhere, right?
00:10And some time ago, in other countries, we received the information of armed young people who have made disasters.
00:22At a young age, in schools, in parks, themselves, on social networks.
00:31And the determination was made here in Argentina of ...
00:37One says, 18, 21, it's nothing, two years, right?
00:42But the minimum age to be able to buy a firearm.
00:46It went down, before it was 21, the minimum age, now it's 18, right, doctor?
00:51Exactly.
00:53And I take it in every sense, in the criminal and others.
00:58How do you think, with your vast experience, that this will affect each of the citizens?
01:06Well, it seems to me that people are very insecure,
01:10even though now we have a minister who seems to be taking care of this a lot,
01:16and we have a secretary, a minister of security, who is Dr. Cuño Ligarana.
01:23I have a lot of respect for him, and I think he will do things with his heart and with what he knows from experience.
01:32But I'm going to tell you about minors.
01:35For example, as Napoleon said, it is better understood.
01:39I'm going to defend a minor, and when I see him, I say, are you happy that you are going to leave?
01:45Yes, doctor, I'm happy, because now I live in the neighborhood of Nájera,
01:52I go to the neighborhood of Noriones, and the boys didn't play with me.
01:56So now I have a cause, doctor, so now I'm going to be able to play with them.
02:02Another case, he steals a truck, he's a minor, and he leaves it there in Villa 31 in front of the gendarmerie.
02:11He forgets the keys, when he goes to see them, he turns on the gendarmerie.
02:14The truck had taken him on the road to La Plata, with his gang.
02:22So when I go to see him, obviously, as a defense lawyer, I process it, I take it out, the mother is very happy.
02:32I tell her, well, this is the first thing you do, because I see him small, short.
02:36No, this is the ninth, doctor, what happens is that they hadn't caught me before.
02:41How do you defend someone like that?
02:43How do you defend private defenders?
02:45I'm going to tell you what I really think.
02:49If I don't defend him, I'm a private lawyer with experience, I also worked for a year in the ADOC,
02:56as an ADOC defender, in the National General Defense, doing oral trials on criminals.
03:01I was in the case of Vittel Tesellane, I defended the Mucama, he was the only one who came out free,
03:07Maroranova, who said that he couldn't have come out, he couldn't have been, that he didn't agree with the gang.
03:14And as she said, I had my hands tied, but I turned around and dialed the phone,
03:19I put her in the studio and did the same thing, then I took her to court and did the same thing.
03:22The woman argued everything and did it.
03:24And then the hairdresser said that he had left the prisons closed.
03:31We went to the court to investigate, we took him, and the experts were confused because he was claustrophobic.
03:38If I don't do it, the official defenders do it.
03:42Are they going to do it right or are they going to do it wrong?
03:45So I do it, for me it's like playing chess and winning.
03:52Well, we, the ADOC defenders, play against the prosecutor and the whole group of a judicial organization.
04:00That doesn't mean...
04:02We play with the...
04:04That's why, what you argue is that, or find gray areas, or try to make it fair to judge the person you represent.
04:16Defense, as I say, is the art of creating doubt.
04:20Good phrase, doctor.
04:24Put it on the screen, please.
04:26Really, really, it's very good, and I'll leave it there, short, Lautaro.
04:31But you defend criminals.
04:34I defend criminals and non-criminals.
04:36Some time ago, some guys came to see me, they were from my neighborhood, I went to Valentino Alcina, and they told me,
04:40Look, this boy fell for rapes, and the woman doesn't believe him.
04:45He was a boy who had a taxi, and he also worked at the congress.
04:48The wife didn't believe him.
04:50When I went to see him, it turns out that this boy, before he could...
04:54He had a taxi, they sold him, they sold him painted.
04:57Then it is seen that a man bought him, and it was on July 9th that he raised two minors, a boy and a girl.
05:04He left the boy later, and the girl took him, raped him, and then he dragged her to the village.
05:11And he said, I like it, I'm going back, and the girl's mother saw him.
05:15When we went to the recognition, because there is a recognition,
05:19the girl said she didn't know if it was him or not.
05:26And the girl said, yes, this is him.
05:28And the mother came back, she looked at him and said, but why did they bring me for this?
05:33And I lost the day of work.
05:35This is not him, this is a young man.
05:38The other one was an old man, shameless, and I remember him perfectly.
05:42Well, he was like two months until they released him.
05:45And he was innocent, they didn't even believe the woman.
05:48We defend everyone, the innocent, the guilty.
05:53We are defense lawyers, we are going to defend everyone.
05:57And even in the military era, when they didn't want to attend us in the police stations,
06:02nor did they report us, they sent them by letter or document.
06:05That's how they came to look for me.
06:07Is a lawyer also professionally predisposed?
06:12I speak from his story, but also perhaps from sharing with colleagues.
06:19Is a lawyer also professionally predisposed when he knows that his client is innocent
06:25and when he knows that his client is guilty?
06:27One deceived me.
06:29Just one?
06:31One could only deceive me.
06:33They call me in Morón, a boy from Casillero, and he tells me,
06:38look, I have a friend who has been in prison for two and a half years for rape.
06:42Well, okay, do you want to take it?
06:45Well, I take it.
06:46I go, and the trial was in a month.
06:52So when I see him, I tell him, well, in a month.
06:56No, no, doctor, I'm doing my mouth, I'm comfortable here.
07:01When I went, well, it turns out that he had already gotten used to it.
07:06When they say I live here, when they say I live in prison,
07:09it's because they're used to being in prison.
07:12He defends it and it turns out that, well,
07:14it was said that he had gone out with a girl who was a promoter,
07:18that the girl said she had asked for a remission,
07:20that she had changed, that she was not with a little top.
07:24When I find out everything, because I go, in the trial you have to do everything,
07:28I make an escalibur of those, of the calls, but I think, right?
07:34I see that no remission has ever been called.
07:37I try it in court, I call the owner of the Dentos company,
07:43I ask him if he changed, he told me no.
07:46What had happened was that the girl, actually, when I went,
07:52it was the first oral trial, I remember,
07:54when I went to see the prosecutor, who had not said the name,
07:56and I went to say hello, he told me, 18 years.
07:59I said, doctor, I came to say hello.
08:01Well, I prove in the trial that there really had not been any call for remission,
08:07that there had not been, that nothing had changed,
08:11and that it really was a consensual outing.
08:14Consensual, the girl was a foreigner, he had promised her that he was going to get married,
08:18then he told her that he was married, and then the girl said no.
08:21But this is a case of something consensual.
08:24I say, there must be many cases.
08:26Is it predisposed to be the same or not?
08:27Just as the judges predispose us, but the judges, for example,
08:30if they had a partner who before, when he studied,
08:33maybe he told him barbarities, and the guy was maybe short, short,
08:38and with curly hair, and he has a guy in front of him like that,
08:40maybe that gives him his qualities.
08:43Facial expression.
08:45Sure.
08:46You are talking about the romantic part, the part that I understand perfectly,
08:52the part where I defend someone.
08:55But you don't have to feel affected.
08:57No, let's go to the strong part.
08:59Let's go to the part where a mother is stolen from her child,
09:03and you have him in front of you and he tells you to defend me.
09:06Or a rapist that we know has no cure,
09:11because we know he has no cure because of psychologists and a lot of expertise,
09:16and you have to defend him.
09:18Without romanticizing, let's say, the confession.
09:20I remember the other day, a mother was desperate,
09:23because her daughter was killed in a police chase,
09:27and she didn't have anyone to take care of her.
09:30She was very desperate.
09:32They told her that they couldn't give her a view of the cameras,
09:35or they couldn't do anything for her.
09:37She was abandoned, very poor.
09:39Well, I also agreed.
09:41We are defenders.
09:43We defend everyone.
09:45I understand that we all have to be defended, but how do you defend?
09:50What's wrong with you?
09:52But if he is guilty, what he does is that he respects the law.
09:56Nothing more than that.
09:58The book he brought, show it to the doctor.
10:00The book he brought there.
10:02What he preaches and what he studied.
10:04You understand perfectly.
10:06But for the common human being.
10:08No, no, the human being does not exist, Gaby.
10:10No, for the common human being who is looking at the house.
10:12He is a professional.
10:14I understand it perfectly.
10:16But for the common human being who is in the house.
10:18He says, how do you defend a rapist?
10:21Do you understand me?
10:23She was the woman who was accused of crimes.
10:28And no one wanted to take that charge.
10:30And he says, who took charge?
10:32Buckner, an official defender.
10:34And he defended her.
10:36So we pay those defense officers.
10:39We are paying the defense officers.
10:42Ale, what we are talking about.
10:45To go back to the subject.
10:47The subject of the low age.
10:49First, the difference between tenancy and portation.
10:53And second, I'm here looking at the data.
10:55Less than 4% of minors under 20 carry weapons.
11:02If you go to Conurbano, it is easier to buy a gun.
11:05But the one who cries will not get the card.
11:07I tell you the following.
11:10If the person who took the gun.
11:13It does not matter the age.
11:15If he was 5 years old, 10 years old, 12 years old, 15 years old, 20 years old, 50 years old.
11:20He took the gun, stole it and killed.
11:23And we arrest him, if we put him under arrest.
11:26That person will not commit the second crime.
11:29Because in the court there is a turning point with the minors.
11:32It is more than with none.
11:34Because the defense lawyers let us intervene normally.
11:37In the case of a minor, there are a lot of obstacles.
11:39If the minor does not come, it is a procedure almost in absentia.
11:42Because the minor does not have to be mortified.
11:46He is sent to an institute.
11:48Or he is sent with the parents.
11:50It turns out that the parents of the minors.
11:52When I have defended people in Lanús, in Villa San José.
11:58The minor was a criminal.
12:01The mother was a criminal.
12:02The father was a criminal.
12:04The uncle was a criminal.
12:05They were all criminals.
12:06They send him to the house.
12:08They send him to the house.
12:10So what is better?
12:12We put him in a special prison.
12:15We educate him.
12:17We try to see if he can recover.
12:19Or you send him to the family.
12:21Or we send him to the family.
12:23What dilemma is that?
12:24Or we send him to those institutes.
12:26As soon as he enters, they are going to rape him.
12:28They are going to teach him.
12:30What did you steal?
12:31Now you are going to steal things.
12:34You showed the video where the boy steals.
12:37They ended up hitting the man who reacted.
12:39The father, the woman, the child.
12:41He kept stealing.
12:43You say you are in favor.
12:45Don't you think that at 18 your mind is not fully developed?
12:50I hope they don't vote then.
12:52No, a gun is not the same as a vote.
12:56You go for me.
12:58That's my way of thinking.
13:00Don't you think that his mentality can be a bit lax at 18?
13:06In Myanmar, they use minors for the guerrilla.
13:10Because the minors obey the orders without arguing.
13:14So the minors have not yet developed some senses.
13:21What happens is that what is sought with the new law.
13:24They say that committing a crime against the elders is worth it.
13:28But it's going to be a minor.
13:30It's going to be up to 20 years old.
13:32And if he recovers on the way, maybe they can release him too.
13:35But now that the country is in a civil war situation.
13:40With the crimes.
13:42And the crimes come from minors.
13:44Because the elders feed on these minors.
13:47They are like the guerrillas of Myanmar.
13:49They take the minors because they know that they are going to execute the orders they give them.
13:53Kill those hostages, rob that truck.
13:56So here it is very easy for them.
13:58The minors are given some drugs, some money.
14:01And the minor does what he did in Santa Fe.
14:04He went and killed the beach boy.
14:06So we have to have a solution.
14:09Because we can't have a country full of minors who commit crimes.
14:12Besides, remember that we have a lot of children.
14:14The money is plagued.
14:15We have had two generations of children on the street.
14:18They don't work because their parents don't work either.
14:21Their parents are used to going to pickets.
14:25To look for money from the state.
14:28And they have not been educated.
14:30They have not been given a job.
14:32I have always been a supporter.
14:34If you want to give something, well, give them the money.
14:36Teach them a lesson.
14:37Give them the money so they can go out and earn their money.
14:40That they cut the grass.
14:42That they make pasta.
14:44That they make shoes.
14:46I have to say goodbye, doctor.
14:48And I share.
14:50That there is a place where they teach the culture of work to all the minors who steal.
14:55And if not, unfortunately,
15:00I don't want to keep it with my taxes.
15:03Locked up in a place.
15:05I don't want to.
15:08What do you think, and I don't know if this is in the case,
15:10just this before closing, doctor, about the Loban issue.
15:13I congratulate you.
15:15Thank you very much, thank you very much.
15:17But what do you think, in general, about the court?
15:21Well, you...
15:23A look from the outside, from someone who knows a lot about the law.
15:26You may have even seen me question.
15:28When I was talking, I was talking on another channel,
15:32and I made a call to the lawyers.
15:36You, who know the truth of what is happening,
15:41try to put a little light on it
15:43to solve the problem so that the boy does not disappear forever.
15:47Unfortunately, I was not heard.
15:50And no one heard.
15:52Because there is selfishness.
15:54So, they gave him time.
15:57They were looking to improve the situation of some detainee,
16:01or some detainee,
16:02and try to get privileges for that detainee
16:05in exchange for him telling something.
16:08The only privilege that was given to him
16:10was to keep that detainee or detainee isolated.
16:14And nothing else was given to him.
16:16The silence remained.
16:18And now the boy is missing.
16:21Or he is in another country, or he is dead.
16:24They gave him time for what?
16:27If they took him out, they gained time.
16:31And if they also eliminated him,
16:33they gave time for the evidence to disappear.
16:36I think it's outrageous.
16:38And I blame my colleagues too.
16:42You blame your colleagues too.
16:44Because we have responsibility, the lawyers.
16:48We are...
16:50You are talking about the lawyers who are defending the defendants.
16:54No, no, I say that we have to have a responsibility.
16:58When we defend someone,
17:00if we have knowledge of something,
17:03we have to do something.
17:05There is a method to not violate the secret.
17:09We...
17:11But you just said that your job is to sow doubt.
17:15In our case, in a closed case,
17:17we can take it to the Court of Ethics of the Lawyers' College
17:20and resolve things.
17:23We can't...
17:25We walk around here, in the middle of the cornice, right?
17:29But if we walk...
17:31Here is the law and here is the crime.
17:34If we walk near the cornice where the crime is,
17:38we become criminals.
17:43And I don't want the lawyers to become criminals.
17:47We walk around the cornice, in the middle,
17:50between the law and the crime,
17:54but we can't cross this line.
17:57So what I ask of you in all cases
18:00is that we remain impartial
18:02and that we also try to collaborate.
18:05Because you know what happens?
18:07There are several ways to defend a person.
18:10There is also a way to reach an agreement with the prosecution,
18:13to reach a collaboration,
18:16a regret,
18:18and to achieve a minor crime.
18:20If it's 8 to 25 years,
18:22well, it happened to me.
18:24There are many evidences against it, it doesn't come out.
18:26The prison is very hard, very hard.
18:28Well, to achieve a minor crime and solve it.
18:31If we want to take it to the end,
18:34to gain prestige, to make money,
18:37in a selfish way,
18:39and we make the suffering of the victim
18:43more cruel and more extensive,
18:45I don't agree.
18:47Thank you very much, doctor.
18:48It was very clear.
18:49Very kind.
18:50Dr. Margarita.
18:51It's my way of thinking.
18:52Thank you very much.
18:53Excuse me.