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00:00This is Apropos.
00:04His crimes sent shockwaves around the world, prompting a wider debate here in France about
00:09victim shaming and the legal definition of rape.
00:12Dominique Pellicot has been sentenced to 20 years behind bars for drugging and raping
00:16his former wife and inviting other men to abuse her.
00:20Guilty verdicts were also returned for all of his co-accused who received jail terms
00:25of between 3 and 15 years.
00:28But six of them were allowed to walk free from the court having served their time during
00:33pre-trial detention.
00:35Emily Boyle has more.
00:39Outside the gates of the criminal court in Avignon, supporters chanted the words shame
00:44on justice as sentences were handed out in the Pellicot trial.
00:49The atmosphere was tense as a lawyer for one of the condemned men in the mass rape trial
00:53taunted the crowd and called the activists knitters and hysterical.
01:01He boasted that his client was one of the six men walking out freely, having only been
01:06held in provisional detention.
01:09The scene added salt to the wound for many feminist activists who said they felt humiliated
01:14by the sentences.
01:17What bothers me is the notion of different penalties, while they're all the same offence
01:21under the penal code, that's rape and for rape our penal code says 15 years, how is
01:26it that certain men who we recognise have committed rape can walk free after three years?
01:34For activists and observers, the Pellicot trial has highlighted the need to update French
01:39law.
01:40In the absence of consent as a legal criterion in France, defence lawyers were able to argue
01:45that the aggressors thought they were taking part in a consensual fantasy.
01:53If we had in our French criminal law the obligation for the person who initiates sexual contact
01:59to ensure they have consent free of any coercion, the accused would not even have been able
02:04to plead a belief in consent since Mrs Pellicot never said yes.
02:11The country's criminal code currently defines rape as a sexual act committed by violence,
02:17coercion, threat or surprise, but does not mention whether or not consent is necessary.
02:23France was one of a dozen countries that opposed the EU's recent effort to establish a shared
02:28definition of rape based on the notion of affirmative consent, namely the idea that
02:34only yes means yes.
02:38To discuss, we're joined now by feminist writer Cecile Simmons, a researcher at the Institute
02:44for Strategic Dialogue in the UK.
02:46Good to have you with us this evening.
02:48Giselle Pellicot says she hopes that her ordeal will help to make the world a better place.
02:54Cecile, will this trial and these verdicts prompt wider societal change, do you believe?
03:01I think it already has.
03:02I think this trial is exceptional in its very nature.
03:07I think it has already shifted the conversation about who the perpetrators of sexual abuse
03:11are.
03:12I think the idea of the respectable family man that so many abusers hide behind has really
03:18been dented and I hope in a, you know, in a systematic way.
03:22I think there is also a greater awareness now of, you know, drug induced sexual violence.
03:31And I think we're also starting to, I suppose, reckon with a broader culture that encourages,
03:40you know, violence, sexual violence and the understanding that it's a much more widespread
03:45phenomenon.
03:46And we saw in that report there just a minute ago, some campaigners, including Giselle Pellicot's
03:52children also say that the sentences that Dominique Pellicot's co-accused received were
03:58too lenient, between three and 15 years.
04:02Would you agree with that?
04:04I mean, as has been pointed out, I think a lot of women's rights organisations have rightly
04:12said that some of these sentences can feel quite short, given the horror of what unfolded.
04:21And indeed, some of the men having served sentences before will essentially walk free.
04:28So I think even with a case where we have so much hard evidence and, you know, it's
04:34still, we're still not potentially getting the justice that, you know, rights organisations
04:41might hope for.
04:43And Dominique Pellicot, he himself received a 20 year sentence.
04:47That is the maximum sentence in France for rape.
04:50None of his co-accused did.
04:52In fact, they received sentences that were lower in number of years than prosecutors
04:57had actually requested.
05:00What kind of message does that send?
05:03I think it really sends the message that despite, you know, the progress and the historical
05:08moment that we're witnessing, it is still incredibly hard to get justice for victims.
05:14And indeed, although in this case, all men have been found guilty, we know that only
05:20a tiny proportion of, you know, rape accusations result in any kind of conviction.
05:27We know that in these cases, it's always her word against his word.
05:34And that indeed, there is still a long way to go.
05:37Because research suggests that just about 14% of cases involving allegations of rape
05:43actually make it to trial here in France.
05:45So what needs to change?
05:48Well, I think what we need to sort of understand is just the extent of, you know, rape culture
05:55that we live in.
05:56I think so many, you know, alleged victims of sexual violence, you know, essentially
06:05face so many hurdles in having their audio recognised because, you know, there will always
06:11be questions about what they could have done to prevent it.
06:15There is essentially that is what rape culture is, this normalisation of abuse.
06:21And there is also, you know, there are all sorts of obstacles in getting justice.
06:26I think in this particular case, we had hard evidence because Dominique Pellicot operated
06:32online and there is just an amount of footage and evidence that we don't always have in
06:36these cases. So there are all sorts of obstacles as well.
06:40And then there's a bigger societal obstacle, which is that there is still not enough
06:45awareness of sexual violence in our society.
06:49I think that we haven't seen enough reckoning, especially from men, with the culture that
06:56we've all been socialised in.
06:58And some of the lawyers for the defence were criticised during this trial.
07:02We saw a little bit of that in that report as well, over their line of questioning and
07:07the approach that they took in relation to Giselle Pellicot.
07:10Is that something that prevents other victims from deciding to come forward when they see
07:16how survivors of rape are actually treated during a trial?
07:21Absolutely, and I think that what was particularly striking in this case as well is that so
07:27many men hide behind excuses and so many men have said that, you know,
07:36essentially Giselle Pellicot was in on this abuse.
07:40And it's really hard to sort of understand how these men could have possibly believed
07:45that she was consenting.
07:47And yet we're seeing in multiple cases that, you know, perpetrators of all sorts of abuse
07:54make that claim.
07:55You know, we're seeing it through all sorts of phenomena.
07:59So I think that it can indeed, you know, feel incredibly discouraging to see that we are,
08:07you know, possibly even entertaining these arguments.
08:10And Cecile, not all campaigners are agreed on this, but some women's rights activists,
08:15they believe that the concept of consent should be introduced under French law.
08:20Is that something that you'd be in favour of?
08:23Is it time for legislative reform here in France?
08:27Well, I think that the notion of consent in law is a form of progress for sure.
08:33And I think a lot of countries, including the UK, essentially have a consent based definition.
08:40But I think that consent goes only a certain way in, I suppose, making sure that justice is
08:48made. As I said, there are multiple obstacles to getting justice.
08:52And I also think that consent is a minimal, really, entry point.
08:56And there are a lot of forces that can, you know, coerce us into consenting.
09:01And so really consent is a minimal entry point in general in dealing with issues of sexual
09:06violence. But it is certainly something that in light of this trial, that maybe France
09:12should consider.
09:14And Cecile, these men, they came into contact with Dominique Pellicot through online
09:20forums. Why weren't they shut down and why aren't they being held to account?
09:26I think it is actually quite difficult to hold some of these platforms to account.
09:31They are very good at disguising themselves.
09:35They sometimes move countries or they are, you know, sort of located in different
09:41jurisdictions. And it is, you know, it can be an incredibly arduous process in the case
09:48of the website that Dominique Pellicot used.
09:50Indeed, rights organisations had tried to shut it down for many years.
09:57And, you know, we are seeing that unmoderated online spaces are, you know, they are
10:04a sort of haven for abusers.
10:06They're a place where people share tactical playbooks and where, you know, actually
10:10crimes are also shaped.
10:12And Cecile, much was made of the fact during the trial that these men who were on trial
10:18with Dominique Pellicot came from all walks of life, campaigners pointing out that they
10:23weren't monsters, but ordinary men.
10:26Many people still don't believe women who come forward to make allegations of abuse.
10:31Will this trial change that, do you think?
10:35I mean, we hope that it will change that.
10:37We hope that after such a momentous case, there will be women who, you know, come
10:45forward with suspicions that they may have been drugged, you know, will be receiving, you
10:50know, will be heard by police a lot, a lot more.
10:54We hope that that will change.
10:56But I think that there is still a long way to go and there needs to be a greater reckoning
11:03with the broader culture we're socialised in, which, you know, makes it very difficult
11:10for sexual and violence and rape cases to be taken seriously because so often victims
11:17are shamed, they are questioned and they are blamed as well for what's happened to them.
11:23And that is still the case.
11:25And finally, Cecile, you're joining us tonight from London.
11:27How has this trial been viewed from outside France?
11:32I think everyone has used the same words to describe this trial, really seeing it as a
11:37turning point and really hailing Giselle Pellicot's courage.
11:41And there is really a sense that after, you know, years of impunity towards abusers,
11:48particularly, you know, powerful men accused of abuse, there is, you know, a sort of, I
11:57suppose, a significant change and that that actually will reverberate outside of France
12:02as well and will hopefully, you know, raise awareness of sexual violence elsewhere as
12:10well and change the conversation beyond France.
12:12Cecile, thank you so much for your time on the programme this evening.
12:15We'll have to leave it there for now.
12:17That is Cecile Simmons, feminist writer, joining us live from London.
12:22Well, that is it from us for now.