Is Pakistan's Right to Information Law Just for Show? National Coordinator FAFEN
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00:00At the beginning of the program, I told you that there seems to be a civilian dictatorship here.
00:04Why did I say that?
00:05The basic principle of democracy is that we elect people,
00:08they run governments, run systems, and give answers to us.
00:13We get a new law every day,
00:16that you don't think, you don't say,
00:18you take whose name, you don't take whose name,
00:20we have restrictions to this extent.
00:22And where the taxpayer's money goes, where our money is, where these answers are,
00:27there is a total chill program.
00:29Fafn, the Free and Fair Election Network, has done a very good report on this.
00:33You heard that a Right to Information Act was created in 2017.
00:38And there were a lot of speeches on it.
00:40Oh, look, now any citizen will write,
00:43will be given an answer within 10 days,
00:45the ministry will not give, then this action will be done, that action will be done.
00:48Come on, our hopes have also been awakened.
00:50Then, as is the case in the government,
00:52a system is immediately formed.
00:55Then, the information commissioners will be appointed.
00:59Three in every province,
01:01under them is the entire court,
01:02and in the MP-1 scheme, there are hundreds of thousands of salaries.
01:06If you look at the commissioners in the centre,
01:09if you look at the commissioners in every province,
01:10it is a complete mess.
01:12This is the expense of crores of rupees a month, which you and I are paying.
01:16And what is the work?
01:17Insolvency.
01:17Absolutely nothing.
01:19Fafn has just reported,
01:21and that is why I am sharing with you,
01:22a very interesting data has emerged.
01:25They said, we did the average.
01:26Now look at the state of the federal ministries.
01:28They said that we scrutinized 40 divisions of 33 federal ministries.
01:36And you know, it seems that on an average,
01:38they have posted 40% basic information.
01:42And the information is completely incomplete,
01:45completely incomplete and benign information.
01:48They have done a lot of favour,
01:49they have told how many officers are there,
01:51what is it, under which law it was made.
01:53There is no serious information there either.
01:56And this is 40% average.
01:58There are important ministries,
01:59Information and Broadcasting,
02:02Human Resource Development,
02:03they have given 19% of their information.
02:06Defence, Power, Law and Justice, Railways,
02:09they have given 27% of their information.
02:11And this is also exactly what,
02:13what should I say,
02:14what I use,
02:15which is completely useless information.
02:17They did those things.
02:18Then they wrote a letter.
02:20And when they wrote to all the ministries,
02:21only 19 of them thought it was appropriate to answer.
02:2414 did not even answer.
02:27And among those who did not answer,
02:28Interior Ministry,
02:29they said, who are you, black and yellow people,
02:31who are asking for answers from us?
02:33Human Rights, IT,
02:34which is the biggest problem in the country at the moment,
02:36they did not even answer.
02:37Law and Justice, Railways,
02:40and I read the list,
02:41these are all people,
02:42absolutely no responsibility,
02:45no answer,
02:46we are giving crores to the commissions.
02:48Don was great,
02:49on whom the editorial also came.
02:51He said, you have made 5 Right to Information commissions.
02:55In one centre,
02:55in 4 provinces,
02:56each has 3 commissions.
02:58Then there is a whole department behind it.
03:00There is a legal department below,
03:01facilitation centre,
03:02IT section,
03:03communication section,
03:05admin section,
03:06budget and accounts,
03:07that is, a whole ministry has been formed.
03:10What is the performance?
03:11Zilch.
03:13And they have got this answer again,
03:15because Fafanet was an NGO.
03:18A common man writes,
03:19he does not care,
03:20it is not appropriate to answer him.
03:22They did not even answer him.
03:23The key ministries did not even answer him.
03:26But this is the state of affairs.
03:29What drama is going on?
03:31What is not going on?
03:31Let's talk about this later.
03:33I have been joined by Mr. Rashid Chaudhary.
03:35He is the national coordinator of Fafanet.
03:37Assalam-o-Alaikum, Mr. Rashid.
03:39Waalaikum-as-salam, Mr. Malik.
03:41Sir, tell me,
03:42the information you have taken,
03:45first tell me,
03:4840% is a big average of yours,
03:51if you add up all of them.
03:52The main departments have 19-20%.
03:56What quality of information
03:57have they given on their website?
03:59Or have they given it to you as well?
04:04The quality of information on that,
04:06this information is the information
04:08that the law requires,
04:10that they will voluntarily put it on their website,
04:15and it is necessary to put it.
04:17And there is a lot of basic information on this,
04:19what is the overview of the public body,
04:22what kind of organization it is,
04:25what is the diagram,
04:26what is the personnel,
04:28what are the reports,
04:29and the basic annual things like this,
04:32those are the declarations.
04:34So the problem is that those declarations
04:37are also not available on websites.
04:39And on that,
04:41at least the federal ministries,
04:44we have taken the websites of the divisions,
04:47we have not yet gone to the provinces,
04:49but section 5 of the federal law of 2017,
04:54its compliance is such that
04:56where there are proactive disclosures,
04:58our public bodies, institutions,
05:02divisions are not compliant.
05:05And this one that you talked about,
05:07that if someone has some information available,
05:10how much information is available,
05:12how much time is there,
05:13we have tried to test that as well.
05:16In that as well,
05:18the information that is there,
05:20many ministries have not asked for it at all,
05:23to give some kind of answer,
05:24some have given the answer,
05:26some have given the answer within the same 10 days,
05:28some have given it after that.
05:30But the way the public bodies
05:33try to get information,
05:35after that, there is a mechanism,
05:37the information commission.
05:38So what is there in the Act?
05:39If they don't give an answer,
05:41then what will happen?
05:43Then people go to the information commission
05:46for an appeal,
05:48they complain that
05:50we asked for this information,
05:52we did not get it,
05:53and then the information commission
05:55gets this information,
05:57writes to the institutions,
05:59that this information has been given.
06:01Do you have the data
06:03of how many people these commissions have worked for?
06:06Because no one is going to ask these commissions.
06:09Who is looking at the activities of these commissions?
06:13The information commissions,
06:14which are there for three years,
06:16in the federation,
06:17they have annual reports,
06:19there are different trainees,
06:21and their activities…
06:23No, no, the reports have come,
06:25they have a performance matrix,
06:27that you have…
06:29How are we judging?
06:30People have been sitting for seven years,
06:32it is taking turns,
06:33three years later, three years later.
06:35So there is a matrix,
06:37there are indicators,
06:38there is an oversight on them,
06:40that they are sitting quietly,
06:42they are sitting in the woodwork,
06:44taking salaries, MP1 is being paid.
06:46There is an oversight of the parliament on them.
06:50Parliament scrutinizes their annual reports,
06:54checks them,
06:56and how effective they have been,
06:58what is the efficacy,
06:59how many petitions are being decided here,
07:02and how many are going to the president in representation,
07:06and how much information is being available to people.
07:14When you contacted the ministries,
07:16for example, the Interior Ministry,
07:18Human Rights,
07:19I think at least the Human Rights people will answer,
07:22because it is a rights-based ministry,
07:24and it is a Right to Know Information Act,
07:27Human Rights did not even answer you.
07:30Yes,
07:31the ministry that should be the most transparent,
07:38should give more information,
07:40for example,
07:41there is poverty alleviation,
07:42there is a division of safety nets,
07:44they should tell people most proactively,
07:47what they are doing,
07:48and maybe they are doing a lot,
07:50but because they only have 8% compliance on the website,
07:548%?
07:558%
07:56information is not available,
07:58ok, they have 8%
08:00they have 8%
08:04and when this type of information is not available,
08:07then people make stories,
08:08then there is misinformation and disinformation,
08:10and we think that,
08:12the way to tackle this misinformation and disinformation,
08:15the way to make a law or bring in some other regulations,
08:19it can be misused,
08:21the better way to tackle misinformation and disinformation is,
08:25is that the state should become more transparent and the ministries, divisions and public bodies
08:31should proactively start giving that information to the people, so that at least this...
08:36How do they start giving it?
08:37Then all the activities will not come in front of us.
08:39Anyway, we have run out of time, Rashid Chaudhary sir, thank you very much.